Pronunciation of "mirror"
Matt Davis
Here in England, it is a simple two syllables, mi-ruh.
In America, it sounds more like mirrrr-rrrrr. If you know what I mean. Seems
just a bit harder to pronounce, like the R takes up most of the word. Isn't
it just easier to say mi-ruh? (or if rhotic, mi-ruhr)
Cheers,
Matt
dcw
I think what happens is that, where non-rhotic speakers lose the "r"
(that's an over-simplification, but it's not what we're discussing),
rhotic Americans may lose the vowel, leaving a semi-vowel sort of "r"
(your "rrrr"). So "mirror" becomes /mIRR/, or perhaps /mIR:/.
Other examples are "error", "terror", and "squirrel".
David
Pan
<ma...@avengah.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>Is it just me, or do Americans strain themselves when they say "Mirror"?
>
>Here in England, it is a simple two syllables, mi-ruh.
>
>In America, it sounds more like mirrrr-rrrrr.
[snip]
You hear us roll our r's like that? I say "mi-r@r," and it closely
approximates a one-syllable "mi@r."
Michael
To reply by email, please take out the TRASH (so to speak). Personal messages only, please!
Robert Lipton
I don't strain myself saying "mirror" Matt, but I wear a truss and say
the word only under professional supervision. Now, have you anything at
all to say about the English language, food or sheep, or is this just
about your dissatisfaction with Americans?
Bob
R H Draney
<ma...@avengah.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
What you say would be true if "the R" that "takes up most of the word"
were in fact one R...it's two Rs, and there's a vowel (unstressed,
granted) between them, so it's no more difficult than saying
"parallel" instead of "parallllll"....
If you *really* want to make people think you're having some kind of
fit, go around repeating the word "listlessnesses"....r
LarryLard
'Warrior' is a good one.
--
Larry Lard. Replies to group please.
Henry Churchyard
I haven't observed what you're talking about in any American
pronunciations of the word "mirror", but in fact in some dialects
there are a few words such as "stirrer" and "demurrer" (and sometimes
also "juror") in which there's really just one long strongly retroflex
vowel -- which is demarcated into two syllables by prosodic factors of
pronunciation, but which does not have any clearly audible consonant
separating the two syllables. But actually, the "one long bisyllabic
retroflex vowel" pronunciation of "stirrer" etc. should be
articulatorily easier (rather than more difficult) than a
pronunciation with an intervocalic consonant inserted. Anyway, if you
want a seemingly "strenuous" pronunciation, many of the same dialects
do not have any real vowel in words such as "bull", "pull", "wool",
etc.; rather, these words have stressed syllabic [l].
--
Henry Churchyard chu...@crossmyt.com http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/
Fester
"Horror" is an interesting one.
Most people, at least where I live, pronounce this as "harr-orr". I
prefer not to change the o to an a, which with my American accent
makes it sound like "horr-rr".
More than once people have though I said "whore".
--
-- Fester
Over 2 Billion Defenestrated
==============================
Richard Fontana
You must be on the East Coast. Away from the East Coast (and maybe
too Southern-based dialect communities), most AmE speakers use
"hor" rather than "har". "Horror" is in the Orange Class.
Steve Hayes
<ma...@avengah.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
I've heard a lot of Americans say "meer".
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Richard Fontana
>On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:12:23 -0000, "Matt Davis"
><ma...@avengah.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Is it just me, or do Americans strain themselves when they say "Mirror"?
>I've heard a lot of Americans say "meer".
They weren't PPS speakers. We say [mI" rR].
Gwen Lenker
<larr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"dcw" <D.C....@ukc.ac.uk> wrote in message news:67...@myrtle.ukc.ac.uk...
>> I think what happens is that, where non-rhotic speakers lose the "r"
>> (that's an over-simplification, but it's not what we're discussing),
>> rhotic Americans may lose the vowel, leaving a semi-vowel sort of "r"
>> (your "rrrr"). So "mirror" becomes /mIRR/, or perhaps /mIR:/.
>>
>> Other examples are "error", "terror", and "squirrel".
>
>'Warrior' is a good one.
I've often heard "warrior" pronounced to rhyme with "lawyer" (the
first syllable in each rhyming with "toy").
Pat Durkin
"Gwen Lenker" <gale...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:3c530c8a...@news.cis.dfn.de...
I have heard of people who talked that way, but perhaps they were just
actors on TV. I believe that such pronunciation is associated with
New Jersey, but maybe Brooklyn. I don't know the New York City
regional names and accents.
Where are the people from whom you have heard?
>
Michael J Hardy
> I've often heard "warrior" pronounced to rhyme with "lawyer" (the
> first syllable in each rhyming with "toy").
I've never heard that. Somehow it reminds me of the practice
of pronouncing "forward" as "foe-ward", with no audible "r" at the
end of the first syllable. It has been alledged in this newsgroup
that speakers of at least one dialect do that, and I think I heard
it once. -- Mike Hardy
Richard Fontana
"Woyer" for "warrior" could not have been Brooklyn. I make no claims
about New Jersey, especially Southern New Jersey (near Philadelphia).
There are lots of really bad fake New York-ish accents on TV, so perhaps
that's what you heard, but it's hard to tell. One thing I notice some
actors doing is overgeneralizing non-rhoticism when they try to do a New
York (or occasionally Boston) accent -- they'll drop *every*
/r/, no matter where it is in a word, turning it into a /w/ if
necessary. Such actors might make the mistake of turning "warrior" into
something like "woyah". They could really use some sessions with a
dialect coach. If you can't get an accent right you shouldn't attempt it
at all.
For example, did you see Timothy Hutton's portrayal of Archie Goodwin in
that A&E (?) Nero Wolfe series? I dunno why he gives Archie a New York
accent at all, but it's just about the worst attempt at a New York accent
I've heard in a few years. Regarding the point under discussion, he says
"Nero" as something like "Neewo" or "Neeoh". Oy!
Richard Fontana
I suppose it is a little bit similar, but I think it's probably done in
different dialects. Certainly in PPS and other NY dialects "warrior" is
not "woyer" or anything similar. I think I *have* heard the pronunciation
Gwen describes but it's something I associate with Western U.S. accents,
and those guys do not say "foe-ward".
New York speakers (including PPS speakers) do do something a bit similar
to "foe-ward" in the words "almost" and "always". These get
de-lambdicized, and the vowel changes, so that they're pronounced like
"oh-most" and "oh-ways". Note the similarity between "always" and
"forward": the glide before /w/ is lost, and the /O/ is converted to /o/.
M-W, interestingly, acknowledges the existence of the non-lambdic form of
"always" but not of "almost".
Richard Fontana
>
>> I've often heard "warrior" pronounced to rhyme with "lawyer" (the
>> first syllable in each rhyming with "toy").
One thing I've been noticing lately is many Americans pronounce
"William" with /j/ but no /l/, like "Wee-yum" or /wIj@m/.
perchprism
"Richard Fontana" <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> wrote in message
news:slrna56d94....@localhost.localdomain...
> On Sat, 26 Jan 2002 16:06:55 -0600 Pat Durkin wrote:
> >
> >"Gwen Lenker" <gale...@mail.com> wrote in message
> >news:3c530c8a...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> >> On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 20:07:46 -0000, "LarryLard"
> >> <larr...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >"dcw" <D.C....@ukc.ac.uk> wrote in message
> >news:67...@myrtle.ukc.ac.uk...
> >>
> >> >> I think what happens is that, where non-rhotic speakers lose the
> >"r"
> >> >> (that's an over-simplification, but it's not what we're
> >discussing),
> >> >> rhotic Americans may lose the vowel, leaving a semi-vowel sort of
> >"r"
> >> >> (your "rrrr"). So "mirror" becomes /mIRR/, or perhaps /mIR:/.
> >> >>
> >> >> Other examples are "error", "terror", and "squirrel".
> >> >
> >> >'Warrior' is a good one.
> >>
> >> I've often heard "warrior" pronounced to rhyme with "lawyer" (the
> >> first syllable in each rhyming with "toy").
> >
> >I have heard of people who talked that way, but perhaps they were just
> >actors on TV. I believe that such pronunciation is associated with
> >New Jersey, but maybe Brooklyn. I don't know the New York City
> >regional names and accents.
>
> "Woyer" for "warrior" could not have been Brooklyn. I make no claims
> about New Jersey, especially Southern New Jersey (near Philadelphia).
<snip>
You rang? I wish people wouldn't say "New Jersey" when they mean "North
Jersey." The two accents are nothing alike. (I wonder where the dividing
line is. People from Trenton and even Piscataway don't speak like Tony
Soprano, but something like I do.) I just asked my 14-year-old to say
warrior, and she said /'wA.riV"r/, if you allow the American version of the
strictly British /A./. I say it the same.
--
Perchprism
(southern New Jersey, near Philadelphia)
Robert Bannister
> On Fri, 25 Jan 2002 10:12:23 -0000, "Matt Davis"
> <ma...@avengah.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Is it just me, or do Americans strain themselves when they say "Mirror"?
> >
> >Here in England, it is a simple two syllables, mi-ruh.
> >
> >In America, it sounds more like mirrrr-rrrrr. If you know what I mean. Seems
> >just a bit harder to pronounce, like the R takes up most of the word. Isn't
> >it just easier to say mi-ruh? (or if rhotic, mi-ruhr)
>
> I've heard a lot of Americans say "meer".
Or 'myrrh'.
--
Rob Bannister
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz
>
> You rang? I wish people wouldn't say "New Jersey" when they mean "North
> Jersey." The two accents are nothing alike. (I wonder where the dividing
> line is.
The line where the glacier retreated. (For those without a geological
map, that's diagonally from Hunterdon County (which still sounds
Philadelphia-ish) down to Atlantic County.)
Dennis
(Still alive and reading, but must go again...)
Ben Zimmer
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
>
> perchprism wrote:
> >
> > You rang? I wish people wouldn't say "New Jersey" when they mean "North
> > Jersey." The two accents are nothing alike. (I wonder where the dividing
> > line is.
>
> The line where the glacier retreated. (For those without a geological
> map, that's diagonally from Hunterdon County (which still sounds
> Philadelphia-ish) down to Atlantic County.)
Ahem. Having grown up in Hunterdon County I can firmly say that it
doesn't sound Philadelphia-ish there. There's actually more than two
"accents" in the state-- in fact Labov's phonological atlas divides NJ
into something like *four* dialect regions. There's South Jersey,
extending all the way north to Trenton, which is part of the
Mid-Atlantic dialect region (Philadelphia, Baltimore). Central to
northwest Jersey is in the same region of the North Midland dialect as
northeast Pennsylvania (Bethlehem, Scranton). Much of northeast Jersey
is in the New York City dialect region, while another part along the New
York State border falls in with the Hudson Valley (which Labov puts in
the Western New England dialect region). See:
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/maps/MapsM/Map1M.html
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/Atlas_chapters/Ch11/Ch11.html
So Hunterdon Co. is in that central/northwest part of the state wedged
between the Mid-Atlantic and New York City dialect regions. This area
lacks some phonological features found in both the Mid-Atlantic and NYC
dialects, notably the "short-A split". This means "bad" and "bat" have
the same vowel for me, while for both Messrs. Perchprism and Fontana the
vowel would sound different. The fact that there's a bit of NJ lacking
the short-A split is the main reason why Labov and others don't consider
Philadelphia and NYC to be in the same continuous dialect region.
--Ben
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz
>
> Ahem. Having grown up in Hunterdon County I can firmly say that it
> doesn't sound Philadelphia-ish there.
Okay, credentials: I was born in Union County (1949), lived in Hunterdon
County (1966-69) and then Mercer County (1970-78); my brother was raised
(since 1954) in Flemington and still lives there.
I didn't especially notice the accent when I lived there, but after my
move to Vermont, the Philadelphia sound, especially the o and ou, sound
very strong. I work with a person who recently moved from Cape May, and
he still carries that Philadelphia-ish quality.
To me, it sounds like a geographic move northward of the Philadelphia
sound and westward of the New York sound. Perhaps it's a result of the
suburbs stretching out as far as northeast Pennsylvania from both
directions.
I would guess the relatively minor Scranton and Hudson Valley accents
are shrinking in New Jersey; the main accents -- even based on the maps
you site -- really do split on the glacial diagonal, and it's the
easiest way to remember the answer to perchprism's "I wonder" question.
Dennis
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz
>
> site
cite
Poop.
Dennis.
daniel gerard mcgrath
I pronounce the liquid of the first syllable in all three words, and I
have /o/ in "always", but /O/ in "almost": "forward" /'fOr w@rd/,
"always" /'ol ,wez/, "almost" /'Ol ,most/.
--------------------------------------------------
daniel g. mcgrath
an avid subscriber to _word ways: the journal of recreational linguistics_
(<URL:http://www.wordways.com/>) and 'alt.usage.english' newsgroup
i have AUTISM -- for more information, please see
<URL:http://www.alt-usage-english.org/McGrath.html>.
Pan
I say "Wil-iyum" sort of. The "iy" doesn't really form a syllable
because it's more a consonant than a vowel, and the "um" is some ways
toward "im."
Ben Zimmer
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
>
> Ben Zimmer wrote:
> >
> > Ahem. Having grown up in Hunterdon County I can firmly say that it
> > doesn't sound Philadelphia-ish there.
>
> Okay, credentials: I was born in Union County (1949), lived in Hunterdon
> County (1966-69) and then Mercer County (1970-78); my brother was raised
> (since 1954) in Flemington and still lives there.
Born in Essex Co. (1971), moved to Hunterdon (near Flemington) in '76.
Parents still live there.
> I didn't especially notice the accent when I lived there, but after my
> move to Vermont, the Philadelphia sound, especially the o and ou, sound
> very strong.
Ah, well in contrast to New England speech, I'm sure Central Jersey
vowels sound close to Philadelphia vowels. But growing up I distinctly
remember that my friends and I were able to tell if someone was from
South Jersey/Philadelphia by their o's: in the South Midland dialect the
/oU/ diphthong sounds like [@U] or [EU]. A surefire shibboleth was
"hoagie" (a Philadelphia-ism), pronounced something like [hEUgi].
--Ben
Pan
<bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
[snip]
>So Hunterdon Co. is in that central/northwest part of the state wedged
>between the Mid-Atlantic and New York City dialect regions. This area
>lacks some phonological features found in both the Mid-Atlantic and NYC
>dialects, notably the "short-A split". This means "bad" and "bat" have
>the same vowel for me, while for both Messrs. Perchprism and Fontana the
>vowel would sound different.
Same for me, though I wouldn't know how to phonetically represent the
vowel I use for "bad." I take it you rhyme "bad" with "cad" and "fad"?
> The fact that there's a bit of NJ lacking
>the short-A split is the main reason why Labov and others don't consider
>Philadelphia and NYC to be in the same continuous dialect region.
Uh-huh. Are they, then, in the same _discontinuous_ dialect region? I
tend to think not, as there are subtle differences. Then again, is New
York City all in the same dialect region?!
Gwen Lenker
wrote:
>
>"Gwen Lenker" <gale...@mail.com> wrote in message
>news:3c530c8a...@news.cis.dfn.de...
>> I've often heard "warrior" pronounced to rhyme with "lawyer" (the
>> first syllable in each rhyming with "toy").
>
>I have heard of people who talked that way, but perhaps they were just
>actors on TV. I believe that such pronunciation is associated with
>New Jersey, but maybe Brooklyn. I don't know the New York City
>regional names and accents.
>
>Where are the people from whom you have heard?
California, specifically the San Francisco Bay Area, which is home to
a basketball team called the Warriors.
Richard Fontana
> Born in Essex Co. (1971), moved to Hunterdon (near Flemington) in '76.
Whoa! Zimmer's one of Us! Post-Tet, Pre-Bicentennial!
Excellent!
Richard Fontana
> On Sat, 26 Jan 2002 23:32:47 GMT, rfon...@wesleyan.edu (Richard
> Fontana) wrote:
>
> >On 26 Jan 2002 22:47:54 GMT Michael J Hardy wrote:
> >> Gwen Lenker (gale...@mail.com) wrote:
> >>
> >>> I've often heard "warrior" pronounced to rhyme with "lawyer" (the
> >>> first syllable in each rhyming with "toy").
> >
> >One thing I've been noticing lately is many Americans pronounce
> >"William" with /j/ but no /l/, like "Wee-yum" or /wIj@m/.
>
> I say "Wil-iyum" sort of. The "iy" doesn't really form a syllable
> because it's more a consonant than a vowel, and the "um" is some ways
> toward "im."
I say /wIl j@m/, two syllables.
Ben Zimmer
>
> On Sat, 26 Jan 2002 22:26:29 -0600, Ben Zimmer
> <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote:
>
> [snip]
> >So Hunterdon Co. is in that central/northwest part of the state wedged
> >between the Mid-Atlantic and New York City dialect regions. This area
> >lacks some phonological features found in both the Mid-Atlantic and NYC
> >dialects, notably the "short-A split". This means "bad" and "bat" have
> >the same vowel for me, while for both Messrs. Perchprism and Fontana the
> >vowel would sound different.
>
> Same for me, though I wouldn't know how to phonetically represent the
> vowel I use for "bad." I take it you rhyme "bad" with "cad" and "fad"?
Yes, for me, "bad" rhymes with "cad" and "fad", with a vowel I'd
represent as [&:]. I say "bat" with pretty much the same vowel, though
I'd represent it as [&] without the length mark (vowels are typically
longer before voiced consonants). For speakers in the Inland North
(Great Lakes region), home of the Northern Cities Vowel Shift, all of
these "short-a's" become "tense" (raised, fronted, lengthened, sometimes
diphthongized)-- so "bat" would sound like [b&:t] or [bE:t] or [be:@t]
or [bi:@t] depending on how much tensing is in the speaker's dialect.
I'm currently in Chicago, where people tend to say [bi:@t].
For many speakers in the NYC and Philly regions, though, the short-a
becomes tense in some words (like "bad") but doesn't in others (like
"bat"). This is why it's called the short-a split. What's strange
about this phenomenon is that it doesn't simply follow phonological
rules (i.e., you can't predict in which phonetic contexts the vowel is
tense and in which it's not). Sometimes it depends on "grammatical
conditioning", meaning you have to know what part of speech the word
is-- a good example of this is "can", which for speakers with the
short-a split has the tense vowel in "tin can" but doesn't in "I can".
Sometimes it just depends on the word-- in Philadelphia, the tense vowel
is in "bad", "mad", and "glad", but not in "cad" and "fad" (and every
other word ending in "-ad").
There's a lot more about this on Labov's site:
http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/Atlas_chapters/Ch11/Ch11.html
(see "11.3.3.1. The Mid-Atlantic region")
> > The fact that there's a bit of NJ lacking
> >the short-A split is the main reason why Labov and others don't consider
> >Philadelphia and NYC to be in the same continuous dialect region.
>
> Uh-huh. Are they, then, in the same _discontinuous_ dialect region? I
> tend to think not, as there are subtle differences. Then again, is New
> York City all in the same dialect region?!
Depends how you define "dialect region". Labov and his colleagues have
a pretty broad construal, based almost entirely on certain variations in
vowel quality. So the "Inland North" (extending around the Great Lakes
from eastern New York to southeastern Wisconsin) is defined by the set
of changes known as the Northern Cities Vowel Shift. Similarly, the
"short-a split" characterizes the "Mid-Atlantic" region (Baltimore,
Philadelphia), extending up the Eastern Corridor to NYC (except for that
pesky bit of central NJ). Of course, you can always make a more
fine-grained analysis and find subtle differences, but Labov et al. are
looking at major regional divisions.
--Ben
Ben Zimmer
Ben Zimmer wrote:
>
> So the "Inland North" (extending around the Great Lakes
> from eastern New York to southeastern Wisconsin)
Sorry, that should read *western* New York. Buffalo, Rochester,
Syracuse, thereabouts.
--Ben
Ben Zimmer
But I might not be worthy to partake in your venerated PPS, since I'm
lacking the short-a split. BTW, I'm surprised you haven't come up with
an abbreviation for this yet... how about (I)CIN(T)C = "(I) Can" Is Not
"(Tin) Can".
--Ben
Richard Fontana
>
> Richard Fontana wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 27 Jan 2002, Ben Zimmer wrote:
> >
> > > Born in Essex Co. (1971), moved to Hunterdon (near Flemington) in '76.
> >
> > Whoa! Zimmer's one of Us! Post-Tet, Pre-Bicentennial!
>
> But I might not be worthy to partake in your venerated PPS, since I'm
> lacking the short-a split.
Oh, no question. You're from Jersey.
> BTW, I'm surprised you haven't come up with
> an abbreviation for this yet... how about (I)CIN(T)C = "(I) Can" Is Not
> "(Tin) Can".
Ah... that's actually a very good illustration of the phenomenon for
me. I should record that. I'm not sure how it generally works, but
in PPS the "can" of "I can" is more like my more open, "cat" vowel, and
the "(tin) can" is more like "man", raised and diphthongal.
Ben Zimmer
That's the split, all right. It's hard to say how it "generally works",
but here are some of Labov's rules of thumb for the NYC variety:
1. tensing occurs in closed syllables ending
/&b, &d, &dZ, &g, &m, &n, &f, &T, &s, aS/
but not in syllables ending
/&p, &t, &tS, &k, &N, &v, &D, &z, &Z, &l, &r/
2. no tensing in function words (can, an, am, had)
3. no tensing in irregular verbs (ran, swam, began)
(this is the case in Philadelphia, not sure about NYC)
4. no tensing in open syllables (hammer, passage), unless the next
syllable is an inflectional suffix (hamming, passing)
5. no tensing in learned words (alas, wrath)
That still doesn't cover it, but you get the idea. There will always be
exceptions to the rules-- like the first syllable of "avenue", which is
tense in the NYC dialect, unlike all other words with /&v/.
--Ben
perchprism
"Dennis Bathory-Kitsz" <bat...@bathory.org> wrote in message
news:3C5377...@bathory.org...
> perchprism wrote:
> >
> > You rang? I wish people wouldn't say "New Jersey" when they mean "North
> > Jersey." The two accents are nothing alike. (I wonder where the dividing
> > line is.
>
> The line where the glacier retreated. (For those without a geological
> map, that's diagonally from Hunterdon County (which still sounds
> Philadelphia-ish) down to Atlantic County.)
I was just wondering where you'd gotten to. You poked your nose in the door
a while back and then vanished. Snowed in now, are we?
I like the glacier theory--it lends a venerability to things Jersey sorely
lacking.
Pat Durkin
Wow! I was really far afield, wasn't I?
Skitt
Yup, "Warriors" rhyme with "lawyers" around here, not too far south of the
arena where they play.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel of "Fawlty Towers" (he's from Barcelona).
Richard Fontana
>
>
>Richard Fontana wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2002, Ben Zimmer wrote:
>>
>> > BTW, I'm surprised you haven't come up with
>> > an abbreviation for this yet... how about (I)CIN(T)C = "(I) Can" Is Not
>> > "(Tin) Can".
>>
>> Ah... that's actually a very good illustration of the phenomenon for
>> me. I should record that. I'm not sure how it generally works, but
>> in PPS the "can" of "I can" is more like my more open, "cat" vowel, and
>> the "(tin) can" is more like "man", raised and diphthongal.
>
>That's the split, all right. It's hard to say how it "generally works",
>but here are some of Labov's rules of thumb for the NYC variety:
>
>1. tensing occurs in closed syllables ending
>/&b, &d, &dZ, &g, &m, &n, &f, &T, &s, aS/
>but not in syllables ending
>/&p, &t, &tS, &k, &N, &v, &D, &z, &Z, &l, &r/
This seems to fully apply to PPS, except that I'm not sure how to properly
analyze /&N/. Indeed, the particularly tense "man" allophone (despite
what R.J.V. thinks) is not much different from the /eI/ allophone we use
in "ail", "air", which has no [j] element; were we to use the tense /&/ in
/&l/, /&r/ we'd end up with vowel merger with /eIl/ and /eIr/.
Some of the words in the tense group get a tenser /&/ than others, which
is what makes it difficult to analyze, and I guess a closed syllable can
easily turn into an open one, if that terminology is used. I was
thinking of "badge", which I found difficult to analyze (I was almost
going to say that it was an exception to Labov's rule
above). "Badge" gets slightly tense /&/ in isolation, but not when I say
"badge of honor" (I don't know if that's no longer a "closed syllable" in
that more or less atomic phrase). I hear a distinction between my
"badger" (animal -- no tensing) and the (admittedly
unlikely) "badger" (one who badges -- some tensing). That's a lot like
the "passage" or "passing" example you mention, I think.
>2. no tensing in function words (can, an, am, had)
True of PPS.
>3. no tensing in irregular verbs (ran, swam, began)
>(this is the case in Philadelphia, not sure about NYC)
For PPS there's no tensing in "swam" or "began". But "ran" definitely
does have tensing, and I think that's true of Traditional New York accents
too.
>4. no tensing in open syllables (hammer, passage), unless the next
>syllable is an inflectional suffix (hamming, passing)
True of PPS. I distinguish between "passing" (noun, conceived as
something sufficiently removed from the notion of the verb "to pass", as
when we speak of the passing [departure] of someone or something) and
"passing" (verb form, or perhaps noun form that is closely associated with
"to pass").
>5. no tensing in learned words (alas, wrath)
True of PPS.
>That still doesn't cover it, but you get the idea. There will always be
>exceptions to the rules-- like the first syllable of "avenue", which is
>tense in the NYC dialect, unlike all other words with /&v/.
"Avenue" has tense /&/ in PPS too.
One important feature of PPS, though, and this seems to have tripped up
V. into thinking I have "Jamaican man", is that the phonetic distance
between tense and non-tense /&/ is narrower than I think it is in other
New York accents.
For those who want to hear a recording, I say "can a cat man a catamaran"
at
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/rf_cat_man.wav
Note that there my "can" is just the unstressed "can" and does not
illustrate the "non-tin-can can" pronunciation.
Richard Fontana
I don't mean to be picky, but I'd say "western New York State". :-)
Ben Zimmer
Richard Fontana wrote:
>
> On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 05:18:04 -0600 Ben Zimmer wrote:
> >
> >
> >4. no tensing in open syllables (hammer, passage), unless the next
> >syllable is an inflectional suffix (hamming, passing)
>
> True of PPS. I distinguish between "passing" (noun, conceived as
> something sufficiently removed from the notion of the verb "to pass", as
> when we speak of the passing [departure] of someone or something) and
> "passing" (verb form, or perhaps noun form that is closely associated with
> "to pass").
That makes sense, since in the verb "passing" the "-ing" is an
inflectional suffix, while in the noun (assuming you can talk about
"passings") the "-ing" is a derivational suffix.
There's no uniform rule on how words with derivational suffixes are
handled in the short-a split. Labov found in his Philadelphia study
that "classics" was tense but "classical" wasn't, "photographed" was
tense but "graphic" wasn't, etc. One interesting case is diminutive
suffixes on names-- in the Philadelphia data "Danny", "Frannie", and
"Sammy" were tense but "Cassie" and "Cathy" weren't. "Lassie" could go
either way (could be pronounced [laesi] or [le:@si]). Labov suggested
that it depended on whether or not the speaker felt that "Lassie"
derived from "lass" (on the analogy of "Dan" > "Danny", etc.).
--Ben
Pan
I'd say "western New York." No-one I know would think of the West Side
of Manhattan as "western New York," but I know from spending time in
Chatauqua, Buffalo, and Rochester that _they_ so call their area of
the state.
Ben Zimmer
Another more likely theory (though not quite so venerable): the diagonal
SE-NW line Dennis is talking about isn't really the glacier line (which
actually runs more E-W), but the old colonial boundary between East and
West Jersey. On a current map of NJ the line would run roughly from
Little Egg Harbour to the Delaware Water Gap. The British drew the line
in 1676, with William Penn and the Quakers given West Jersey, and the
royalist George Carteret given East Jersey (mostly land previously
settled by the Dutch and surrendered to the British). Even though East
and West Jersey were united in 1702, it remained an important regional
division (the original boundary between the 201 and 609 area codes
followed roughly the same line).
Nowadays of course the New York and Philadelphia media markets are
probably the most significant division for dialect differences...
--Ben
perchprism
"Ben Zimmer" <bgzi...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message
news:3C549392...@midway.uchicago.edu...
I feel like a frog in a pond having an ecologist tell me all about it. I'd
always explained the division to myself as the product of proximity to the
two big cities, but, as you say, there are more than just the two accents.
Piney stands alone, appearing in my speech only in the pronunciation of some
placenames (Atsion, Berlin), and, I've always suspected, in a certain
tolerance for hillbilly-like archaisms ("amongst" and "whilst" don't seem
quite as alien to me as they seem to be for the average American). The
clamdiggers in the Delaware Bay backwaters (Salem) merit study, too, by
someone better equipped than I am, but they sound downright Colonial in
accent sometimes. I wish I could be more specific.
Anyway, thanks for the insight. I'd never imagined that that old political
division might be reflected in present-day speech.
Richard Fontana
>
>
>Richard Fontana wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 05:18:04 -0600 Ben Zimmer wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >4. no tensing in open syllables (hammer, passage), unless the next
>> >syllable is an inflectional suffix (hamming, passing)
>>
>> True of PPS. I distinguish between "passing" (noun, conceived as
>> something sufficiently removed from the notion of the verb "to pass", as
>> when we speak of the passing [departure] of someone or something) and
>> "passing" (verb form, or perhaps noun form that is closely associated with
>> "to pass").
>
>That makes sense, since in the verb "passing" the "-ing" is an
>inflectional suffix, while in the noun (assuming you can talk about
>"passings") the "-ing" is a derivational suffix.
>
>There's no uniform rule on how words with derivational suffixes are
>handled in the short-a split. Labov found in his Philadelphia study
>that "classics" was tense but "classical" wasn't,
PPS: both "classics" and "classical" non-tense.
>"photographed" was
>tense but "graphic" wasn't,
True of PPS too.
> etc. One interesting case is diminutive
>suffixes on names-- in the Philadelphia data "Danny", "Frannie", and
>"Sammy" were tense but "Cassie" and "Cathy" weren't.
Exactly true of PPS too. Whoa! Those Philadelphia people are o-kay.
I dunno about those Southern New Jersey people nearby, though.
> "Lassie" could go
>either way (could be pronounced [laesi] or [le:@si]). Labov suggested
>that it depended on whether or not the speaker felt that "Lassie"
>derived from "lass" (on the analogy of "Dan" > "Danny", etc.).
PPS: "Lassie" is not tense. We learned it as a dog's name, and not
something derived from "lass".
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz
>
> I was just wondering where you'd gotten to. You poked your nose in the door
> a while back and then vanished. Snowed in now, are we?
Not really. Just unbelievably busy. Ever since the Ought-One Festival
work began last spring, I've had no life. The Festival took place in
August (37 concerts, 102 composers, 2 days), but then I had to catch up
on the rest of my work -- including finding income, as the tech crash
took me with it. After 21 years of freelance tech writing to spare, I
had no assignments. Then our K&D site was featured in the New York Times
(our September 11 Musical Gallery, with eight hours of compositions
created after the attacks) just as we had to switch servers as the one
we were streaming from was taken offline without notice. I had to move
6GB of data from my local machine to another server three days before
the Times article appeared.
Now I'm (ahem) Executive Director fo the Vermont Alliance of Independent
Country Stores. (Okay, it's only a part-time position.)
> I like the glacier theory--it lends a venerability to things Jersey sorely
> lacking.
I have this great New Jersey geological map that I brought with me to
Vermont 24 years ago, and the diagonal of mountains, valleys, and
glacial till from northwest to southeast is striking. And venerable.
Dennis
daniel gerard mcgrath
Fontana) wrote:
>>3. no tensing in irregular verbs (ran, swam, began)
>>(this is the case in Philadelphia, not sure about NYC)
>
>For PPS there's no tensing in "swam" or "began". But "ran" definitely
>does have tensing, and I think that's true of Traditional New York accents
>too.
>
I have [e$], my realization of "tense /&/", in all three of them.
Pan
mcgrath) wrote:
>On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:07:13 GMT, rfon...@wesleyan.edu (Richard
>Fontana) wrote:
>
>>>3. no tensing in irregular verbs (ran, swam, began)
>>>(this is the case in Philadelphia, not sure about NYC)
>>
>>For PPS there's no tensing in "swam" or "began". But "ran" definitely
>>does have tensing, and I think that's true of Traditional New York accents
>>too.
>>
>I have [e$], my realization of "tense /&/", in all three of them.
I use the same vowel sound for all three, and also bag, drag, flag,
and nag, but NOT hag, lag, crag.
Ben Zimmer
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote:
>
> perchprism wrote:
> >
> > I like the glacier theory--it lends a venerability to things Jersey sorely
> > lacking.
>
> I have this great New Jersey geological map that I brought with me to
> Vermont 24 years ago, and the diagonal of mountains, valleys, and
> glacial till from northwest to southeast is striking. And venerable.
I've looked at some geological maps of NJ online, and I'm not seeing the
NW-SE diagonal you're talking about (which I still think is actually the
old East Jersey-West Jersey line). The geological maps I've seen show
nothing but *NE-SW* diagonals:
http://www.state.nj.us/dep/njgs/
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~geolweb/geomap.html
http://www.raritanbasin.org/images/figure06.jpg
You can see on these maps the line where the glacier receded runs
perpendicular to the old NW-SE administrative boundary (which still
forms the border between Burlington and Ocean counties, and part of the
border between Hunterdon and Somerset). Am I missing something?
--Ben
Richard Fontana
>On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 04:29:19 GMT, dmcg...@yahoo.com (daniel gerard
>mcgrath) wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:07:13 GMT, rfon...@wesleyan.edu (Richard
>>Fontana) wrote:
>>
>>>>3. no tensing in irregular verbs (ran, swam, began)
>>>>(this is the case in Philadelphia, not sure about NYC)
>>>
>>>For PPS there's no tensing in "swam" or "began". But "ran" definitely
>>>does have tensing, and I think that's true of Traditional New York accents
>>>too.
>>>
>>I have [e$], my realization of "tense /&/", in all three of them.
>
>I use the same vowel sound for all three, and also bag, drag, flag,
>and nag, but NOT hag, lag, crag.
Presumably you have the tense /&/ in all but the last three. I definitely
do not have the tense /&/ in "lag" and "crag", and I think not in
"hag" either. In general, I'm finding it very difficult to analyze this
since, other than before nasals, my tense and non-tense /&/s are so
similar.
R J Valentine
} On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:10:32 GMT, rfon...@wesleyan.edu (Richard
} Fontana) wrote:
}
}>On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 03:52:49 -0600 Ben Zimmer wrote:
}>>
}>>
}>>Ben Zimmer wrote:
}>>>
}>>> So the "Inland North" (extending around the Great Lakes
}>>> from eastern New York to southeastern Wisconsin)
}>>
}>>Sorry, that should read *western* New York. Buffalo, Rochester,
}>>Syracuse, thereabouts.
}>
}>I don't mean to be picky, but I'd say "western New York State". :-)
}
} I'd say "western New York." No-one I know would think of the West Side
} of Manhattan as "western New York," but I know from spending time in
} Chatauqua, Buffalo, and Rochester that _they_ so call their area of
} the state.
"Western New York wasn't bad as a correction of the "eastern New York",
which I wouldn't use for anything (being from the Island and all).
I'd say "central New York" for the area around Syracuse (and Oswego), if
only in solidarity with my cousins that live within spitting distance of
the lake. Western New York, central New York, the Adirondacks, the
Catskills, the Hudson River Valley, and all the other stuff north of the
Bronx is of course all "Upstate". The New York State Fairgrounds is
appropriately in "central New York". (West New York isn't even in New
York.) The City as a whole isn't divided by directions, but Manhattan
has "sides" and up- and down-townness (and upperness and lowerness). I
don't think anyone would confuse Manhattan with western New York.
On _NYPD Blue_ the police officers' raid jackets say "NYC POLICE" on the
backs. I assume the real ones do likewise.
ObDrift: "Punt formation on condition", "Catch a fly, you're up", "Thank
you so [very] much", "nug".
--
R. J. Valentine <mailto:r...@smart.net>
Pan
Fontana) wrote:
>On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 05:01:54 GMT Pan wrote:
>>On Mon, 28 Jan 2002 04:29:19 GMT, dmcg...@yahoo.com (daniel gerard
>>mcgrath) wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 27 Jan 2002 21:07:13 GMT, rfon...@wesleyan.edu (Richard
>>>Fontana) wrote:
>>>
>>>>>3. no tensing in irregular verbs (ran, swam, began)
>>>>>(this is the case in Philadelphia, not sure about NYC)
>>>>
>>>>For PPS there's no tensing in "swam" or "began". But "ran" definitely
>>>>does have tensing, and I think that's true of Traditional New York accents
>>>>too.
>>>>
>>>I have [e$], my realization of "tense /&/", in all three of them.
>>
>>I use the same vowel sound for all three, and also bag, drag, flag,
>>and nag, but NOT hag, lag, crag.
>
>Presumably you have the tense /&/ in all but the last three.
[snip]
I'm gradually realizing that's what you folks call it. :-)
Best,
perchprism
"Richard Fontana" <rfon...@wesleyan.edu> wrote in message
news:slrna59cet....@localhost.localdomain...
<snip>
> > etc. One interesting case is diminutive
> >suffixes on names-- in the Philadelphia data "Danny", "Frannie", and
> >"Sammy" were tense but "Cassie" and "Cathy" weren't.
>
> Exactly true of PPS too. Whoa! Those Philadelphia people are o-kay.
> I dunno about those Southern New Jersey people nearby, though.
I heard that! I'm astonished that someone went to the trouble to describe
the Philadelphia accent in such detail. All the observations made in this
thread about "tense" and "not tense" are accurate for my root dialect,
though I've been able to untense a lot of them for myself over the years.
Many words in "-an" seem particulary resistant, though--I'll never say "man"
/m&n/.
> > "Lassie" could go
> >either way (could be pronounced [laesi] or [le:@si]). Labov suggested
> >that it depended on whether or not the speaker felt that "Lassie"
> >derived from "lass" (on the analogy of "Dan" > "Danny", etc.).
>
> PPS: "Lassie" is not tense. We learned it as a dog's name, and not
> something derived from "lass".
Except this one: I'd say we're PPS on "Lassie."
perchprism
> Now I'm (ahem) Executive Director fo the Vermont Alliance of Independent
> Country Stores. (Okay, it's only a part-time position.)
It's only the contrast between the grandiose title and the stores themselves
that should give cause for ahemming, not the position. I'm picturing squeaky
screen doors that ring a little bell and slam behind you, worn yet waxed
wood floors, eclectic merchandise of unfamiliar brand in apothecarial array,
dour but attentive shopkeepers...do your duties include tours of inspection?
Be happy--you'll never go hungry.
Dennis Bathory-Kitsz
>
> The geological maps I've seen show
> nothing but *NE-SW* diagonals
No, you are 100% correct.
I am done in once again by left-right dyslexia ... I've looked at the
geological map on the wall for 25 years and that diagonal looked exactly
the same as the pronunciation distribution in my mind's eye. Even after
you sent me to the on-line pronunciation map, I couldn't see it. When
you insisted, I used my finger to trace it, and sure enough, it was
exactly as you said.
Amazing. And embarrassing for my resurfacing here! (My wife has long
known that when she drives with me, "turn left" means nothing. She has
learned to point.)
Dennis
perchprism
My wife is like you. She says it's a mark of genius. Me, I have to point and
mumble "California/England" whenever I have to say east or west, but left
and right (and north and south) is no problem.
obOT: Why do mirrors reverse left and right but not up and down?
dcw
perchprism <gbl...@home.com> wrote:
>obOT: Why do mirrors reverse left and right but not up and down?
They don't. They reverse front and back.
David
R H Draney
wrote:
>obOT: Why do mirrors reverse left and right but not up and down?
Because they're on the wall...put a mirror on the floor and stand on
it; your reflection's feet are above its head....r
Matti Lamprhey
>
> obOT: Why do mirrors reverse left and right but not up and down?
They do reverse up AND down -- that's why you don't notice.
Matti
-- It's all in Plato. What do they teach them nowadays?
Donna Richoux
> obOT: Why do mirrors reverse left and right but not up and down?
Who would buy them if they did? It must be optically possible (look at
how curved glass can turn things upside down) but nobody chose to
manufacture and sell such mirrors on a large scale.
That's one sort of answer to your question. The one about point-to-point
correspondence is more boring.
--
Best -- Donna Richoux