Merry Christmas all.
.
Dear Mr. Mosley,
This is a very nice story, typos and all.
It reminds me of Garrison Keillor, in a way. "Story" is essentially
about character and "characters," or what's memorable about people
that we've known.
And it's difficult to do that (to "tell a story") but you've done that
here. Granted, I don't believe it's a *true* story.
But it does count!
-
Cheerfully,
Rachelle Moore
ReMoore wrote:
> [posted from alt.creative.writing]
>
> Dear Mr. Mosley,
>
> This is a very nice story, typos and all.
>
> It reminds me of Garrison Keillor, in a way. "Story" is essentially
> about character and "characters," or what's memorable about people
> that we've known.
>
> And it's difficult to do that (to "tell a story") but you've done that
> here. Granted, I don't believe it's a *true* story.
>
> But it does count!
>
> -
> Cheerfully,
> Rachelle Moore
Dear Rachel,
First, this is NOT a story. Second, story is essentially about
conflict; of course you have to have at least one character, be it an ant
or rabbit, but that is a given. What is not given about characters is that
a writer must create interesting characters. God created a lot of boring
people, but if you want to write, you must not. Do you even know what the
elements of story are?
You said you didn't believe it was a "true" story. That shows me you
don't know what a story is, as the one thing a story is, is a higher
truth. Story begins with conflict and ends with resolution, everything in
between having so much internal verisimilitude that credulity is never
questioned.
I know you are trying to be kind to this Mosley person, but sometimes
the kindest thing is to discourage someone from trying to do what is
impossible for them. Next to that is to cut to the chase and give
criticism that will help. For instance, you could explain what constitutes
story or simply how to paragraph. To encourage such drivel is cruel. Yes,
I suppose some posters are sensitive egos and may even be children, but we
can't concern ourselves with that. We must concentrate on advancing the
craft and enhanciing the vision.
Oh, where *deliciously* to start. :)
On Thu, 26 Dec 2002 22:09:11 GMT, frank green <fran...@attbi.com>
wrote:
>
>
>ReMoore wrote:
>
>> [posted from alt.creative.writing]
>>
>> Dear Mr. Mosley,
>>
>> This is a very nice story, typos and all.
>>
>> It reminds me of Garrison Keillor, in a way. "Story" is essentially
>> about character and "characters," or what's memorable about people
>> that we've known.
>>
>> And it's difficult to do that (to "tell a story") but you've done that
>> here. Granted, I don't believe it's a *true* story.
>>
>> But it does count!
>>
>> -
>> Cheerfully,
>> Rachelle Moore
>
>Dear Rachel,
> First, this is NOT a story. Second, story is essentially about
>conflict; of course you have to have at least one character, be it an ant
>or rabbit, but that is a given. What is not given about characters is that
>a writer must create interesting characters. God created a lot of boring
>people, but if you want to write, you must not. Do you even know what the
>elements of story are?
Well, I like the classical, I believe "Aristotlean" model:
-time and place (don't remember the latin name)
-dramatis personae (people and situation)
-peripeteia (ups and downs, what happens)
-lysis (the conflict resolved)
Probably you apply to an, um, more useful model? :)
> You said you didn't believe it was a "true" story. That shows me you
>don't know what a story is, as the one thing a story is, is a higher
>truth. Story begins with conflict and ends with resolution, everything in
>between having so much internal verisimilitude that credulity is never
>questioned.
Here's an exercise for an aspiring creative writer or storyteller: on
a shortwave radio, find a broadcast in an tonal language you don't
know (such as Chinese) and listen to it for a few minutes. Then take
ten minutes to write one page contrasting the etymologies of the words
"verisimilitude" and "credulity," using only a desk-dictionary for
reference. (I only reply to this point in such a direct fashion
because I know it will puzzle you, Mr. Green. :)
> I know you are trying to be kind to this Mosley person, but sometimes
>the kindest thing is to discourage someone from trying to do what is
>impossible for them. Next to that is to cut to the chase and give
>criticism that will help. For instance, you could explain what constitutes
>story or simply how to paragraph. To encourage such drivel is cruel. Yes,
>I suppose some posters are sensitive egos and may even be children, but we
>can't concern ourselves with that. We must concentrate on advancing the
>craft and enhanciing the vision.
Well, I will leave it to others who are so inclined to judge what is
"impossible for them" on the slight basis of newsgroup postings.
Certainly those temperamentally (I'll say) qualified to overtly and
bluntly discourage others have their place in the world (and
newsgroups). And so do I.
As for being inadvertently cruel in encouraging people to write, I
suppose I look at it this way. Language, written and spoken, is
(almost) uniquely what makes us human. And newsgroups offer an
opportunity for people to be utterly and uniquely human, and to *know*
their own humanity in a way that the day to day life of many might not
offer (believe it or not): communicating via the written word.
Yeah yeah yeah, we might like newsgroups to be more "structurable."
And this seems possible, to a limited degree? But the medium always
heavily influences what is "said," much more so than is commonly
recognized. It's part of the "computer revolution": in order to take
advantage of it, we had to change the way we did things. So it's a
tradeoff and a compromise.
And all this is *'way* outside the boundaries of any "reasonable"
vision for alt.creative.writing or any other newsgroup. So I'm done
writing for now! :)
-
Cheerfully,
Rachelle Moore
ReMoore wrote:
> Well, I like the classical, I believe "Aristotlean" [sic] model:
> -time and place (don't remember the latin [sic] name)
> -dramatis personae (people and situation)
> -peripeteia (ups and downs, what happens)
> -lysis (the conflict resolved)
Okay, Rachel, let's see if I can help. (I am so pleased that you are serious
and have something of an educated background.)
I believe you mean Greek, not Latin. The Aristotelian model: First, the
unities. Aristotle observed (he was not making pronouncements) that the Greek
theater observed three unities: time, place, and action. A play covered the
span of a day and occurred in one place. And it was given unity by being about
one action. He was very careful to distinguish between the actions proper of a
story and the one action that gave it unity: "What gives a story unity is not
(as the masses believe) that it is about one person but about one action." The
French call this "Unité d'Action." We have come to understand this as an
archetypal action; that is, an action that every human being in any time and any
place will commit at least once in her/his life that is more than typical; for
example, anger (The Iliad), selfishness, love or some lack of love such as
betrayal, loss of innocence. . . .
Now, "dramatis personae" has come to mean "characters in the play"; but before
that it meant "characters in the action" and before that is mean "masks," as
epitomized in the mask for comedy and the mask for tragedy and the masks that
each actor wore. What we must understand, however, is the word "persona." Its
etymology signifies "through" (per) "the sound" (sona, from which we get, for
instance, "sonar"). The significance of this is that when a story can be told
such that the audience/reader can understand what it is really about (its
universal action), then the play is the proper form. Now, this is a great leap,
an enthymeme, but it does show that a narrator is not needed, that the actions
and words by themselves can give its significance; that is, that through the
words (per sona) of the speakers we can glean the essence.
Drama for Aristotle mean "imitated human action"; thus, the word, "mimesis,"
intimation. The problem with this is that both Socrates and Aristotle thought
of art as imitation, whereas we should understand it as intensification. Human,
of course, even when the characters may be pigs, for we speak always of the
human condition. And action, of course, for without events, things happening,
there would be no action proper, no story.
"Peripeteia" or peripety, as Anglicized, does not mean "ups and downs and what
happens." It means the reversal of fortune--in tragedy the fall, in comedy the
success.
Now, let's deal with the elements of story. I shall not go into an explication
of each, for those should be obvious. If they make sense to you, I might find
the time and energy to delve into them a bit at a later time. The five basic
elements of story are:
Character
Conflict
Complications
Crisis (sometimes called "climax," for each Complication has a crisis)
Resolution (which for nuemonics's [Sp?] sake may be called "Conclusion"
> Probably you apply to an, um, more useful model? :)
>
> > You said you didn't believe it was a "true" story. That shows me you
> >don't know what a story is, as the one thing a story is, is a higher
> >truth. Story begins with conflict and ends with resolution, everything in
> >between having so much internal verisimilitude that credulity is never
> >questioned.
>
> Here's an exercise for an aspiring creative writer or storyteller: on
> a shortwave radio, find a broadcast in an tonal language you don't
> know (such as Chinese) and listen to it for a few minutes. Then take
> ten minutes to write one page contrasting the etymologies of the words
> "verisimilitude" and "credulity," using only a desk-dictionary for
> reference. (I only reply to this point in such a direct fashion
> because I know it will puzzle you, Mr. Green. :)
>
Yes, it puzzles me mightily. Can you elucidate?
>
> > I know you are trying to be kind to this Mosley person, but sometimes
> >the kindest thing is to discourage someone from trying to do what is
> >impossible for them. Next to that is to cut to the chase and give
> >criticism that will help. For instance, you could explain what constitutes
> >story or simply how to paragraph. To encourage such drivel is cruel. Yes,
> >I suppose some posters are sensitive egos and may even be children, but we
> >can't concern ourselves with that. We must concentrate on advancing the
> >craft and enhanciing the vision.
>
> Well, I will leave it to others who are so inclined to judge what is
> "impossible for them" on the slight basis of newsgroup postings.
Yes, yes, good point.
>
> Certainly those temperamentally (I'll say) qualified to overtly and
> bluntly discourage others have their place in the world (and
> newsgroups). And so do I.
>
> As for being inadvertently cruel in encouraging people to write, I
> suppose I look at it this way. Language, written and spoken, is
> (almost) uniquely what makes us human.
No duh.
> And newsgroups offer an
> opportunity for people to be utterly and uniquely human, and to *know*
> their own humanity in a way that the day to day life of many might not
> offer (believe it or not): communicating via the written word.
Huh?
>
> Yeah yeah yeah, we might like newsgroups to be more "structurable."
> And this seems possible, to a limited degree? But the medium always
> heavily influences what is "said," much more so than is commonly
> recognized.
McLuhan aside, the medium, form, is only part of the message.
> It's part of the "computer revolution": in order to take
> advantage of it, we had to change the way we did things. So it's a
> tradeoff and a compromise.
>
Come, now.
>
> And all this is *'way* outside the boundaries of any "reasonable"
> vision for alt.creative.writing or any other newsgroup.
What! Silly girl, it's what we're about.
Consider it more of a fun holiday drivel.. But If I *really* wanted, I
could post up what I spent a while writing.
I appreciate your harsh and cruel words, but granted for the time it
took to write, and considering I didn't even intended for a long drawn
out discussion on this.. (even though 100 years from now some ancient
civilization might try to wonder what I was thinking at the time and
what the character is really trying to mean" ) even though it was just
Holiday Cheer. (and no, I was not drinking powdered laundry detergent)
On Thu, 26 Dec 2002 22:09:11 GMT, frank green <fran...@attbi.com>
wrote:
>
>
Mmm. I suppose I was thinking of it in the sense of "changes": the
time-bound illustration or fulfillment or instantiation or
representation of an archetypal "unity."
>Now, let's deal with the elements of story. I shall not go into an explication
>of each, for those should be obvious. If they make sense to you, I might find
>the time and energy to delve into them a bit at a later time. The five basic
>elements of story are:
>Character
>Conflict
>Complications
>Crisis (sometimes called "climax," for each Complication has a crisis)
>Resolution (which for nuemonics's [Sp?] sake may be called "Conclusion"
Mnemonic: a mildly controversial term of art (probably why it's not
more widely used) meaning "memory-aiding," or more loosely (and
commonly) "a particular aid to memory."
"The Five C's." I always *suspect* taxonomies with odd numbers of
categories. :)
>> Probably you apply to an, um, more useful model? :)
>>
>> > You said you didn't believe it was a "true" story. That shows me you
>> >don't know what a story is, as the one thing a story is, is a higher
>> >truth. Story begins with conflict and ends with resolution, everything in
>> >between having so much internal verisimilitude that credulity is never
>> >questioned.
>>
>> Here's an exercise for an aspiring creative writer or storyteller: on
>> a shortwave radio, find a broadcast in an tonal language you don't
>> know (such as Chinese) and listen to it for a few minutes. Then take
>> ten minutes to write one page contrasting the etymologies of the words
>> "verisimilitude" and "credulity," using only a desk-dictionary for
>> reference. (I only reply to this point in such a direct fashion
>> because I know it will puzzle you, Mr. Green. :)
>>
>
>Yes, it puzzles me mightily. Can you elucidate?
It has to do with the relationship of "medium" to "message." I would
simply be interested in the effect of juxtaposing meaningful yet
incomprehensible sounds of spoken language with the emotional
associations around the etymological resonances of words: in a sense
their own primality. Mediated by cognition, of course.
>>
>> > I know you are trying to be kind to this Mosley person, but sometimes
>> >the kindest thing is to discourage someone from trying to do what is
>> >impossible for them. Next to that is to cut to the chase and give
>> >criticism that will help. For instance, you could explain what constitutes
>> >story or simply how to paragraph. To encourage such drivel is cruel. Yes,
>> >I suppose some posters are sensitive egos and may even be children, but we
>> >can't concern ourselves with that. We must concentrate on advancing the
>> >craft and enhanciing the vision.
>>
>> Well, I will leave it to others who are so inclined to judge what is
>> "impossible for them" on the slight basis of newsgroup postings.
>
>Yes, yes, good point.
>
>>
>> Certainly those temperamentally (I'll say) qualified to overtly and
>> bluntly discourage others have their place in the world (and
>> newsgroups). And so do I.
>>
>> As for being inadvertently cruel in encouraging people to write, I
>> suppose I look at it this way. Language, written and spoken, is
>> (almost) uniquely what makes us human.
>
>No duh.
It's a minor point, but unless irony and humor has a sufficient
context...? :)
>> And newsgroups offer an
>> opportunity for people to be utterly and uniquely human, and to *know*
>> their own humanity in a way that the day to day life of many might not
>> offer (believe it or not): communicating via the written word.
>
>Huh?
Yeah. This to my way of thinking is the singlemost "profoundly
important change" to come out of the widespread use of computers: the
opportunity for people to express themselves "on paper" (and latterly
on VDT's, instantly) freed from the cumbersome logistics of
pen-and-paper or typewriters. The change has been all-pervasive and
taken for granted, and has crept up by degrees over the course of
roughly a single-generation, and of course has been masked by the
"sexier" aspects of the "computer/internet revolution."
And newsgroups frankly give us a glimpse of what a "true democracy"
would be like. "In retrospect, it seems absurd to have expected
Heaven to be all kibbles-and-bits..." :)
>>
>> Yeah yeah yeah, we might like newsgroups to be more "structurable."
>> And this seems possible, to a limited degree? But the medium always
>> heavily influences what is "said," much more so than is commonly
>> recognized.
>
>McLuhan aside, the medium, form, is only part of the message.
And... the attributed importance is seemingly always subject to that
caveat. It's a matter of awareness of threshold of perception and
"precision" of context to attribute any more to it. To perhaps
elevate it to equal rank?
>> It's part of the "computer revolution": in order to take
>> advantage of it, we had to change the way we did things. So it's a
>> tradeoff and a compromise.
>>
>
>Come, now.
Don't come that tone to *me,* young man! :)
>>
>> And all this is *'way* outside the boundaries of any "reasonable"
>> vision for alt.creative.writing or any other newsgroup.
>
>What! Silly girl, it's what we're about.
I have mixed feelings about that "we," Mr. Green. Life is not *all*
kibbles-and-bits, I assure you.
> Writing is too difficult to waste on anything other than a
> story--unless it's to try to help someone understand the craft better.
>
> Lester Mosley wrote:
>
>> Just a side note, None of that story was meant to be dissected,
>> analyzed or even taken as a "real story". after all I wrote it in
>> about 10 minutes, off the top of my head.. More as a joke, than
>> anything else. So, ZERO time was taken to fix a "story line"
>> "Fix a character" and all that other clutter crap they tell you to
>> do in writing classes.
>>
>> Consider it more of a fun holiday drivel.. But If I *really* wanted,
>> I could post up what I spent a while writing.
>>
>> I appreciate your harsh and cruel words, but granted for the time it
>> took to write, and considering I didn't even intended for a long
>> drawn out discussion on this.. (even though 100 years from now some
>> ancient civilization might try to wonder what I was thinking at the
>> time and what the character is really trying to mean" ) even though
>> it was just Holiday Cheer. (and no, I was not drinking powdered
>> laundry detergent)
>>
*sigh*.. we live, we learn..
perhaps it was just a poor idea to post it in alt.creative.writing. :P
good story tho.. (regardless of sp errors) -definately gave *me* a chuckle
or two.. ^_^
cheers! *^-^*
------------------------------------------------------------------
'That I will tell you -- Within this ring lies the power of existence and
devastation, of divinity and death. But my hand is the instrument to
choose, and my hand is the instrument to let my dreams return to me, but
with greater power, with greater reality. Such is the nature of Rings:
Things always return, but not always as they have been before.' - excerpt
from the Unbroken Circle of Zerthimon.
------------------------------------------------------------------
> Writing is too difficult to waste on anything other than a story--unless it's to
> try to help someone understand the craft better.
cool, I was wondering why you weren't writing very clearly, and had
this horrible idea that you didn't know how to write, but now I
realize I was wrong: you were simply not wasting well-crafted writing!
because writing, like math for barbie, is HARD!
I also liked the part where you said a story must contain either an
ant or a rabbit. true, very few so-called stories contain either ants
or rabbits, but it's fun to imagine famous books re-written to include
ants and/or rabbits.
``I will live in the Past, the Present, and the
Future!'' Scrooge repeated, as he hopped out of
his burrow. ``The Spirits of all Three shall strive
within me. Oh Peter Cottontail! Heaven, and Easter
Time be praised for this! I swear it on my fluffy
bunny tail, old Peter; on my bunny tail!''
He was so fluttered and so glowing with his good
intentions, that his frisky whiskers would scarcely
stop their twitching. He had been sobbing violently
in his conflict with the Spirit, and his ears were
droopy with sorrow.
quick guide to literature:
WATERSHIP DOWN == story
ALICE IN WONDERLAND == story
ALICE THROUGH THE LOOKING-GLASS == not a story
OF MICE AND MEN == could be a story, if the part about the rabbits
is expanded.
> Do you even know what the elements of story are?
Carbon, oxygen, and celery!
> Story begins with conflict and ends with resolution, everything in between
> having so much internal verisimilitude that credulity is never
> questioned.
The rabbit looked sideways at the ant. "What's your name?" it asked.
The ant was silent, as ants can't talk. "Curses!" said the rabbit.
The other day I went to one of the Super 88s in Boston and trawled the
isles looking for interesting and possibly tasty food. Ultimately I got
some bags of what appeared to be marshmallows stuffed with various
things, like strawberry-flavored gel or some kind of hazelnut paste, and
some peach juice, plus a few other items. It was a pretty successful
trip.
In the frozen foods isle, there were several large bags of what appeared
to be small spring rolls of some kind. For some odd reason they were
completely unlabeled, so that not only could you not tell what was
inside them, you also couldn't tell who made them or how much they cost.
"What was that all about?" said the ant. "Hooray!" said the rabbit,
glad that the ant had finally said something, and it hopped happily
away.
The moral of the story is unstated.
-jwgh
--
"I still wish I looked like Shania Twain. And sang like somebody else."
- Paula <mmmtoblerone at earthlink.ent> in alt.religion.kibology
9 Dec 2002 <1fmw7bm.1uzgtrw1dvbxm4N%mmmtob...@earthlink.ent>
An ant, and ant, my Kingdom for an ant.
Hmmmm.... doesn't work.
HD:)
That was the point, to give a little chuckle.
It did it's job nevertheless.
> An ant, and ant, my Kingdom for an ant.
> Hmmmm.... doesn't work.
>
*hehe*...
A big scary rabbit went into the woods and found an ant. The rabbit
asked the ant "Does poo-poo stick to your exoskeleton?". The ant
replied "No of course not!". The rabbit said "GOOD!" and picked up
the ant and wiped his bottom with the ant.
A pirate rabbit walked into a bar with an ant sticking out of his
pants. The bartender, who was also a rabbit, asked the pirate rabbit
"Why is there an ant sticking out of your pants?". The pirate rabbit
replied "YARRRR MATEY! HIS EXOSKELETON IS DRIVING ME TO CARROTS!".
--
cheers
Beable van Polasm
Perl 6 will give you the big knob. -- Larry Wall
http://beable.com
"Jacob W. Haller" wrote:
> frank green <fran...@attbi.com> wrote:
>
> > Do you even know what the elements of story are?
>
> Carbon, oxygen, and celery!
>
> > Story begins with conflict and ends with resolution, everything in between
> > having so much internal verisimilitude that credulity is never
> > questioned.
>
> The rabbit looked sideways at the ant. "What's your name?" it asked.
> The ant was silent, as ants can't talk. "Curses!" said the rabbit.
>
> The other day I went to one of the Super 88s in Boston and trawled the
> isles looking for interesting and possibly tasty food. Ultimately I got
> some bags of what appeared to be marshmallows stuffed with various
> things, like strawberry-flavored gel or some kind of hazelnut paste, and
> some peach juice, plus a few other items. It was a pretty successful
> trip.
>
> In the frozen foods isle [sic],
Lester Mosley wrote:
> >
> >*sigh*.. we live, we learn..
> >
> >perhaps it was just a poor idea to post it in alt.creative.writing. :P
> >
> >good story tho.. (regardless of sp errors) -definately gave *me* a chuckle
> >or two.. ^_^
> >
> >
> >cheers! *^-^*
>
> That was the point, to give a little chuckle.
> It did it's [sic]
(Poor illiterate Lethter)