Kaddish
Mark. Gooley
I vaguely recalled, when shown it again, the short posting
from his brother, the short and slightly cryptic one saying
that he was dead. I read the obituary and learned that
Richh had been buried in St. Augustine, not a hundred
miles from me. As I don't have a regular job, I let my
seedling vegetables and potted trees and rosebushes
suffer a little more neglect, and drove east, with a piece
of paper giving the name of the funeral directors, the
name of the cemetery, and other important things.
Four miles or so to Hawthorne, where I mailed a book
and got a 44-ounce diet Coke, then drove off across the
railroad tracks and on the way to Interlachen. It's mostly
low, dry hills, with stretches of swamp, the road twisting
between lakes mostly invisible behind houses. Most of
the lakes have been low for some time: Florida has had
a chronic drought for years, for a time broken by the rains
brought a few winters ago by the last El Nino. Docks
usually don't reach the shorelines, and some ponds are
almost dry. Just south of the road there's a retreat center
and holiday camp run by the Seventh-Day Adventists,a
vast shallow bowl of very little houses (made of ticky-tacky
but most having air conditioners) surrounding what's left of
a sizeable pond...there seemed to be no water in it. The
place also has a huge, brightly-painted building for meetings
or whatnot, and it cries out for a low-budget filmmaker to
use it as a location. Decorative succulents by many of the
homesteads, big glaucous agaves, tall clusters of pad
cacti, something that looked like six-foot euphorbias.
Two on-sale Eggs McMuffin at the Interlachen McDonald's,
to go, almost devoid of flavor. Excessive salt and pepper
on the second one seemed to help, and I drove past the
straggle of strip malls and eateries and wee used-car lots
along the road, and into the flatwoods and swamps. Pines,
swamp maples, some saw palmettos in the understory in
the drier places, some cypress trees in the swamps. A
series of little towns like Hollister, all a little above swamp
level, with long desolate stretches of pine in between. New
bridges built for when the road goes to four lanes, and a
little roadside shrine to a redneck around the Drive Safely
sign that marked the site of his fatal accident: silk flowers,
ribbons in patriotic colors, a tattered Stars and Bars thirty
feet overhead in a pine tree. Low, dry hills again, with
occasional swampy interruptions; junkyards, self-storage
places, scattered houses and businesses, a lakeside rabbit
farm offering bunnies and fertilizer. Houses and gas stations
and small businesses in buildings many times re-used...they
gradually congealed into Palatka, as they always do when
I make this trip.
Left turn, north past the ancient BBQ joint and the new
cowboy bar in the old building, past the supermarkets and
KMart and Wal-Mart and the once-abandoned enclosed
mall now staggering back to life, up the six-lane stretch of
road. I turned right at the Adult Entertainment Center and
headed for downtown Palatka.
I stopped at the liquor store on the way. Meredith had
suggested Jack Daniels as something appropriate. I hadn't
bought any in years, and the price shocked me. (If you've
had any doubts about who's writing this, they are gone.)
Green label Jack, which I prefer anyway, was three dollars
less the bottle, so I bought that..
Beautiful downtown Palatka, with the big church now taken
over by a black denomination, the bank and government
buildings mostly out of the Fifties, the old diner lately
renovated...and the bridge up ahead. The St. John's is one
of the few rivers on the continent that flows north, and at
Palatka it must be near a mile wide -- as is the bridge,
four lanes, modern, pale, tall enough for sailboats to pass
beneath, a bronze Doughboy at either end standing guard.
I crossed, took the four-to-six-lane road through another
tangle of strip malls and gas stations, and at length turned left
onto the road to St. Augustine.
Florida cabbages. From Palatka to St. Augustine, and for
some way north and south of that, the land's a flat sandbar,
pine flatwoods usually cleared for grazing land or for those
crops we all think of when we think of the Sunshine State,
cabbages and potatoes. The cabbages were silvery in the
bright sunlight, quite beautiful, as if reflecting the undersides
of the scattered puffy clouds in that cruelly blue Florida sky.
But towards Hastings, they began to give way to potatoes,
even as the County Line produce stand's signs were
announcing, "CABBAGES A-HEAD! SLAW DOWN!"
I passed the Bull's-Hit farm, mostly a potato farm and the
home of "Bull's Chips," an expensive regional brand of
kettle-cooked chips, and drove into Hastings, Potato Capital
of Florida, past a vast long trench where the town's new
storm sewer lines were being lowered into place. Dealers in
farm implements, the remains of a downtown, a few big
churches from some potato heyday.
Potato fields, more potato fields. More small towns, some
grazing lands, a cluster of buildings in the town of Spuds
clearly labeled "Bethune-Cookman College, Spuds Campus."
Elkton, with its huge old wooden Catholic church well away
from the road and almost hidden; Vermont Heights, perhaps
five feet higher in altitude than the potato fields and grazing
land, and not much like Vermont apart from the cattle. Then
the road widened again to four lanes, and I entered the belt
of new Luxury Housing Developments, many with Premium
Golf Course Properties, that is spreading on the west side
of St. Augustine, even west of I-95. The names always
puzzle me: Coquina Crossing, for instance. What does a
coquina cross, except maybe a stretch of ocean floor?
Or do they mean a place where one might cross a road made
out of slabs of fossil-coquina rock? As usual, I didn't stop to
ask, but just drove past the strip joint southwest of the I-95
interchange and into St. Augustine's suburban sprawl.
The funeral home is on Old Dixie Highway, and even without
a map I found it fairly easily: US 1 is Dixie Highway at that
point, so Old Dixie Highway must be parallel to it, more or
less...after a few missteps I found it, just north of the oldish
(not that old for St. Augustine) San Lorenzo cemetery, just
before Old Dixie Highway merges with US 1. Modern
buildings, a big one for viewings and services (and the nasty
side of the business, presumably), a small one that looked a
lot like the offices of an insurance agent. Big red, white, and
blue wreath on the door. I went to the nearest room and
a stocky fiftyish man, very local in accent, very like an
insurance agent but more restrained, asked if he could help.
I explained that I'd known Richard M. Halberstein slightly,
and for some reason had to explain about Usenet postings
over many years, about how many people he'd entertained,
about how he's missed -- how to find his grave and pay my
respects? He started to rattle off directions to the Sons of
Israel cemetery, but then offered to write them down as well.
I thanked him, but he went on to sketch the layout of the
cemetery and note the location of the grave. "There's a palm
tree here, and over there's this small iron gate that's kept
locked, not like the main gate...the grave's between those."
I'd checked the website of the Sons of Israel synagogue of
St. Augustine, and while it has a banner ad for their rabbi's
services as a mohel (performer of ritual circumcisions), it
had mentioned only that their cemetery had been established
to the west of town. Town has engulfed it, and it's in a poor
neighborhood, but one's that's fairly well-kept. There's a
stuccoed wall around the cemetery, in pretty good repair,
and I saw only one small half-hearted-looking graffito on it.
I nearly parked across the street, right next to a NO PARKING
sign, but instead drove past the cemetery, turned the Exploder
around, and parked right by the main gate. I got out, locked the
car (which normally I never do, and it proved unnecessary), and
went to the gate carrying the bottle of Jack, the mortician's
sketch plan, and the other papers. A pair of iron loops on the
gate had a large steel eyebolt, chained to the gate, holding them
together, and I removed that, lifted the latch, and went in.
It's no more than a hundred years old, this cemetery; certainly
none of the trees were any older. The native red-cedar and some
other conifer scented the air; oaks and a pecan just beginning to
leaf out gave some dappled shade. It was quiet. A few bare
mounds, yellow-brown sand with temporary markers, were
over the recent graves. Judging from dates, the burials might
have been several years ago -- or had some of these people
been re-buried here more recently? It seemed a long time for
the mounds to persist. The older graves: large headstones,
usually Hebrew and Roman letters, usually gray granite. None
of the nearby mounds was the right one: I consulted the sketch
map. I'd been looking near the wrong palm tree.
Tucked in just behind a large headstone, a few yards north
of the other palm tree, towards the small locked gate, was a
bare mound. Something had flattened the left side of its
midsection, and although I looked for it, I found no temporary
marker, no identification at all. Yet this must be it. Fire ants
had sent an exploratory colony into the tawny sand and, it
seemed, given that up as a bad job.
I got the Green Jack out of its bag, peeled off the plastic stuff
on its neck and cap, unscrewed the bottle. "L'chaim, Rich,"
I said, lifting the bottle high, then taking a generous swig. Is
it wrong to drink to life when drinking with a dead man? I
have my own hopes and beliefs... The whiskey I poured
onto his grave matched the sand very closely. I left a good
three fingers in the bottle for the next mourner, screwed the
cap on tightly,and rested it against the right side of the mound.
I oriented myself...the gates are to the north, so...I faced
Jerusalem. My voice still a bit ragged from a recent bout of
laryngitis, I took out the paper I'd brought and read, into the
silence, in as carrying a tone as I could:
Glorified and sanctified be God's great name throughout
the world which He has created according to his will. May
He establish His kingdom in your lifetime and during your
days, and within the life of the entire House of Israel, speedily
and soon; and say, Amen.
May His great name be blessed forever and to all eternity.
Blessed and praised, glorified and exalted, extolled and
honored, adored and lauded be the name of the Holy One,
blessed be He, beyond all the blessings and hymns, praises
and conosolations that are ever spoken in the world; and say,
Amen.
May there be abundant peace from heaven, and life, for us
and for all Israel; and say, Amen.
He who creates peace in His celestial heights, may He create
peace for us and for all Israel; and say, Amen.
Silence.
I stood for a while, put the papers and the plastic from the bottle
seal into the bag, and slowly made my way back to the main
gate. I went through the gate, put the eyebolt back, returned
to my car. One bareheaded goy isn't a minyan.
I had planned to stay in St. Augustine for a while, but after a
brief stop at one of my usual thrift shops in search of books,
I lost heart and headed for home. On the way out of town,
I noticed a bumper sticker: "Jesus Loves You! Everyone
else thinks you're an asshole."
Mark., _requiescat in pace_
goo...@gator.net
Kent Paul Dolan
> in pace
Which in an act of sheer kindness I tried to forward to Howie, RichH's
brother, at hhalbe...@home.com .
Which address of course was invalidated on 28 February when Excite@Home
went finally for good belly up.
Which collapse seems to have left behind no clue as to how to find the
new email addresses of old Excite@Home customers.
Even the attbi.com address to which supposedly 80% of the subscribers
were shifted has gone missing as a domain.
Clues solicited.
xanthian.
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
offal clerk jerry
> Clues solicited.
>
> xanthian.
um.
shall I?
naw.
those of us who live in comcast-land can be reached at
old-a...@comcast.net.
maybe. comcast has been hosing things pretty liberally, even with all
that help from microsoft.
jkc
Kent Paul Dolan
> "Kent Paul Dolan" <xant...@well.com> wrote:
> > Clues solicited.
> > xanthian.
>
> um.
> shall I?
> naw.
Aw, come-on, it's been at least, oh, 15 minutes, since someone,
somewhere on the net has tried to blow me out of the water. Why should
you miss out on the fun? Everyone knows geezers are all toothless.
> those of us who live in comcast-land can be reached at
> old-a...@comcast.net.
Thanks, I'll try that.
> maybe. comcast has been hosing things pretty liberally, even with all
> that help from microsoft.
"help from microsoft" -- a paradigmatic oxymoron.
> jkc
Kent Paul Dolan
news:420427e6.02041...@posting.google.com...
> "Kent Paul Dolan" <xant...@well.com> wrote:
> > Clues solicited.
> those of us who live in comcast-land can be reached at
> old-a...@comcast.net.
And that did turn out to be the appropriate clue. Thanks again!
Mark. Gooley
>
> > "Kent Paul Dolan" <xant...@well.com> wrote:
>
> > > Clues solicited.
> > those of us who live in comcast-land can be reached at
> > old-a...@comcast.net.
>
> And that did turn out to be the appropriate clue. Thanks again!
Seeing what this elicited made me wonder whether I'd done
the right thing...
Mark., I hope I did
goo...@gator.net
Kent Paul Dolan
> Seeing what this elicited made me wonder whether I'd done
> the right thing...
Of course you did; you grieved, you helped his brother grieve. Grieving
is necessary, and if repressed, acts as an illness. Took me some 30+
years to relearn to cry, pain doesn't stay around if you don't hold it
in.
> Mark., I hope I did
> goo...@gator.net
xanthian.
Gary Heston
Mark. Gooley <goo...@gator.net> wrote:
>"Kent Paul Dolan" <xant...@well.com> wrote:
>> "offal clerk jerry" <j...@frosch.com> wrote:
[ ... ]
>> > those of us who live in comcast-land can be reached at
>> > old-a...@comcast.net.
>> And that did turn out to be the appropriate clue. Thanks again!
>Seeing what this elicited made me wonder whether I'd done
>the right thing...
Without any doubt, yes; and well done, too.
>Mark., I hope I did
Relax, your instincts were true. Generous, too, for a Catholic to
speak for a Jew. Some folks in the Middle East could take lessons
from you.
Gary
--
Gary Heston ghe...@hiwaay.net
Yea, though I drive through the Vally of Truck Country,
I shall fear no SUV,
for I drive an old Volvo, and they quail before me.
Mark. Gooley
"Gary Heston" <ghe...@hiwaay.net> wrote:
> Mark. Gooley <goo...@gator.net> wrote:
> >Seeing what this elicited made me wonder whether I'd done
> >the right thing...
>
> Without any doubt, yes; and well done, too.
>
> >Mark., I hope I did
>
> Relax, your instincts were true. Generous, too, for a Catholic to
> speak for a Jew. Some folks in the Middle East could take lessons
> from you.
We're kind of like old-time Englishmen these days. We think that
they're our spiritual ancestors. It's quaint but it sure beats
anti-Semitism.
(Did you realize that Benedictine monks say Kaddish nowadays?
The prayer's on their website, too.)
Mark., didn't even catch that bit about hanging on the first read
goo...@gator.net
Kent Paul Dolan
> We're kind of like old-time Englishmen these days. We think that
> they're our spiritual ancestors. It's quaint but it sure beats
> anti-Semitism.
Amen.
> (Did you realize that Benedictine monks say Kaddish nowadays?
> The prayer's on their website, too.)
There being neither heaven nor hell, they weren't in all that much
danger of burning for their hubris anyway, but in case I'm wrong, that
sure gives them a lot of spiritual points.
> Mark., didn't even catch that bit about hanging on the first read
I saw it and assumed it was a tale of things long past. Now I see an
accident, a crippling result, and a suicide to avoid living half
paralyzed. Sad; just today I read about stem cell clones in rats being
successfully matured to fully functional neurons; we are _so_ close to
being able to fix spinal paralysis injuries, though brain injuries might
lag a bit.
xanthian.
Long ago I lost a net acquaintance who read a judgement _proposal_,
presumed he was reading the _judgement_ (in a divorce hearing), and
drove his sports car at speed off a two hundred foot cliff. Except in
very rare well considered instances, suicide is always premature.
[Those who think mine should have succeeded 17 years ago have been
reading too much of what I write; think "killfiles" not "kill Kent".]
Thom Rounds
That's not the point, really... the point is the .sig he glued on the
end of it, vis:
> Yea, though I drive through the Vally of Truck Country,
> I shall fear no SUV,
> for I drive an old Volvo, and they quail before me.
I first saw this a couple of weeks ago, a night or two after having
personally ass-ended a Volvo with my Toyota Tacoma 4WD pick-'em-up.
I can honestly tell you first-hand that no truer prose than that
exists about any car on the market. The scene:
It was the night before Easter, so I was in Maine. A friend and I
were headed for downtown Bangor up I-95 northbound, and had made it as far
as the I-95/I-395 intersection in the outskirts of Bangor. An accident
had happened in the exit lane, with people walking around the vehicles
involved. I slipped into the left lane and slowed down, but not nearly as
much as the Volvo in front of me. My friend saw her before I did (I was
watching the people on foot, some of them were *not* moving rationally).
Anyway, my friend hollered, I looked forward and saw the Volvo damn
near parked 20 feet in front of me, guardrail to the left of me, people
to the right.
Yes, we all know the song, thank you.
I was probably still doing about 45 to 50 when I gave it the full
brakes. No good, the tires locked and the truck yawed left slightly.
Slowed me down a bit, and thankfully (she told me afterwards) she had hit
the gas when she realized I had no way to avoid her, but it was still one
hell of a collision.
We had seatbelts on (damn good thing, too, since the airbags did *not*
go off) and we were both unharmed, so I just hollered a flurry of
obscenities while rolling past the end of the guardrail and pulling onto
the median grass, my bumper rubbing the front right tire. I got out and
ran down the median closer to where she had pulled over on the right.
She got out, I hollered across and asked her if she was okay, she
shrugged and hollered back "I guess so!" in total disbeleif. Once I got
across the highway, we walked around the back to survey the damage: a
1.5x3-inch square hole in her bumper from a piece of my frame that my
bumper was attached to. Oh, yes... and a shallow hexagonal ding on her
trunk lid from the slight impact of one of the bolts holding my license
plate on.
FWIW, the damage to my truck was only slightly worse: an identical
hole in my bumper, which is really just a plastic shroud over the two
frame rails that end right behind it. Actually, it was still in "compound
fracture" state at this point, with the right frame rail jutting out of
the mis-shapen bumper by five or six inches, but nothing we didn't fix on
the spot with a good manly pull on the bottom of the bumper. The only
piece of metal that got bent was the license plate, which took on an
amusing question-mark shape from the collision followed by the bumper-
yank.
Whatever that mysterious styrofoam-asphalt-looking substance is they
put in those bumpers completely absorbed the energy delivered by the mass
of the truck, all of which was delivered in that 1.5x3-inch area. No, I'm
not forgetting the laws of conservation of energy, I'm just making a long
story a little less long by skipping a lot of math.
A very (too) similar incedent happened to me three years ago (with my
Ford Escort vs. a Mercury Sable). Niether car was drivable, mine was
totalled. That accident was the entire reason I bought this truck in the
first place. This time, we both drove away unharmed though heavily
adrenalized.
No, I'm not going to run right out and buy one. I'm going to wait
until my mom's Le Sabre starts to crap out, and then we're going to get
*her* one. My truck has taken some serious punishment and continues to
serve me well. With as many heavy projectiles as I travel amongst on my
hour-long drive down I-495 in Massachusetts each day (like the yuppies in
Suziki Samurais in 4WD that go 80 in ice storms and think they're all set
until they try to stop), I'm in pretty good hands.
--Thom
"But after *my* Easter weekend, you sure as hell won't catch me putting
one down."
Ioannis
[snip]
> We're kind of like old-time Englishmen these days. We think that
> they're our spiritual ancestors. It's quaint but it sure beats
> anti-Semitism.
Yeah, it figures. You'd rather have people who filled the world with
bullshit as your "spiritual ancestors", than say, Ancient Greeks, who
attempted to fill the world with reason.[*]
Then again, those who lack reason cannot understand or appreciate reason
either, so no surprise.
> Mark., didn't even catch that bit about hanging on the first read
> goo...@gator.net
[*]: Feel free to appreciate the immense conspiracy of Christianity,
which was started by Saul of Tarsus with a sole purpose to enslave the
entire collective subconscious of humanity. The victims are already so
many, a couple more won't really make a difference.
Here's a useful link for all of you:
<http://www.minitru.org/llf/llf2.html>
Oh, and don't forget to go to church next Sunday.
--
Ioannis
http://users.forthnet.gr/ath/jgal/
___________________________________________
Eventually, _everything_ is understandable.
nikolai kingsley
> brother, at hhalbe...@home.com .
>
> Which address of course was invalidated on 28 February when Excite@Home
> went finally for good belly up.
>
> Which collapse seems to have left behind no clue as to how to find the
> new email addresses of old Excite@Home customers.
>
> Even the attbi.com address to which supposedly 80% of the subscribers
> were shifted has gone missing as a domain.
richH seems to have covered his tracks nicely. get a fake account, post
a message about your own death, leave some clues pointing to a cemetery
where anyone could have been buried, then collect on the policy and it's
off to Tijuana!
nikolai
---
i keep telling people i'm going to escape to Tijuana one
day, but i'm going to have to improve my swimming first
Ace Lightning
>>Seeing what this elicited made me wonder whether I'd done
>>the right thing...
>Of course you did; you grieved, you helped his brother grieve. Grieving
>is necessary, and if repressed, acts as an illness. Took me some 30+
>years to relearn to cry, pain doesn't stay around if you don't hold it
>in.
alas, that's not always true... there are some things that still
hurt, some after forty years, no matter how many tears i've shed
because of them...
Ioannis
[snip]
> alas, that's not always true... there are some things that still
> hurt, some after forty years, no matter how many tears i've shed
> because of them...
And there are some things that always hurt and will always keep hurting,
incessantly, with every heart-beat, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.
Only after one has finally learned to tolerate pain 24 hours a day [*],
the first signs of True-Wisdom[tm] settle in, asymptotically.
[*] Not only tolerate, but also being able to effectively function
within society's demands, perform certain skillful acts, like a trained
circus monkey, as well as be creative, under the auspices of continuous
pain. THEN, we can talk.
Ace Lightning
>>alas, that's not always true... there are some things that still
>>hurt, some after forty years, no matter how many tears i've shed
>>because of them...
>And there are some things that always hurt and will always keep hurting,
>incessantly, with every heart-beat, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.
>Only after one has finally learned to tolerate pain 24 hours a day [*],
>the first signs of True-Wisdom[tm] settle in, asymptotically.
>[*] Not only tolerate, but also being able to effectively function
>within society's demands, perform certain skillful acts, like a trained
>circus monkey, as well as be creative, under the auspices of continuous
>pain. THEN, we can talk.
i just deleted a multi-paragraph response to that. it
would only sound as if i were trying to have a pissing
contest with you, "i'm in more pain than you are!" -
"no, *I'M* in more pain than *YOU* are!"
pain cannot be quantified in any meaningful way.
Kent Paul Dolan
> Yeah, it figures. You'd rather have people who filled the world with
> bullshit as your "spiritual ancestors", than say, Ancient Greeks, who
> attempted to fill the world with reason.[*]
Well, no, they felt so threatened by reason they condemned Socrates to
drink poison, only found leisure to let the privileged few practice
reason by running an economy in which 90% were slaves, fought constantly
among themselves because they couldn't *reason* about any political
entity bigger than a polis, and considered sodomy superior to
intercourse.
I'm sorry you find mindless bigotry to be so attractive, Ioannis, and
the seductive mischief of jingoism so enthralling. All the Greeks have
given us recently is the bad example of Cyprus, the massive
self-indulgance of shipping hieresses, and oh, yes, Feta cheese, for
which I am suitably grateful.
xanthian.
[Horrible unfairness to Greeks in general, the contributions of Greek
culture, Greece's place in the world and as a US ally, all freely
admitted, but being nice to an anti-Semite is beyond my abilities, and
me an anti-theist.]
Kent Paul Dolan
> And there are some things that always hurt and will always keep hurting,
> incessantly, with every heart-beat, 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.
Have I nagged you recently to check into total body electron beam
therapy?
Mike Civita
another winter, so he waited for my mom to visit, he
climbed a tree, ran around the yard with his dog until he was
winded, went home and died.
Even as I shed a tear typing, I understand that we are all
the final judge as to when it's over, and if Rich called the
game, it is, finally, his call.
Not glad, not sad, but aware.
Mike
Kent Paul Dolan
> My grandfather decided that his heart could not take
> another winter, so he waited for my mom to visit, he
> climbed a tree, ran around the yard with his dog until he was
> winded, went home and died.
Lord, I wish mine had chosen such a route. Like Ms. Lightning, I have
things decades old about which I still grieve.
xanthian.
Ioannis
[snip]
> Well, no, they felt so threatened by reason they condemned Socrates to
> drink poison,
That's _one_ famous example. Are we gonna stick on that for the rest of
eternity? Socrates' teachings were invariably so advanced even for the
sophists and philosophers of the time, that they could not possibly
assimilate his message effectively into society cause it would bring the
entire machinery down. Are you familiar with what society did to
"someone" who recently claimed: "Do what thou wilt"? Do I need to
mention any names? I'll be really surprised if you know who I am talking
about.
Socrates did not advocate "Do what thou wilt" of course, but his true
message was akin to: "All of you are taking "this" too seriously", which
is very close to the "Do what thou wilt" thingy. Now ANY society would
most certainly immediately crucify such an advocate. Even today.
> only found leisure to let the privileged few practice
> reason by running an economy in which 90% were slaves,
Oh, pHHlease. Don't get me started on cotton cultivating fields in the
States, now. Here's the pot calling the kettle black. Slavery in Ancient
Greece was practiced 2,500 years ago. Christ Jesus had not walked the
earth yet. In the States it was practiced three generations ago. And
your poor blacks could not even _buy_ their freedom.
> fought constantly
> among themselves because they couldn't *reason* about any political
> entity bigger than a polis,
They still do. That was always one of the bad traits of that race. Of
course there is an alternate perspective to this and it is that constant
fighting allows only the most resilient shit to float, but I guess you
wouldn't like this approach.
> and considered sodomy superior to
> intercourse.
Which means what exactly? That the Ancient Greeks were the only ones who
practiced sodomy? Are you for real? Have you seen some of the stuff in
the Old Testament? Don't make me go search for things like "women who
were lying with men whose organs were the size those of donkeys..", or
"when the visitors came they were propositioned by the men in the city
so they had to hide in x's house...", and other good stuff. Even the
word "Sodomy" comes from Sodom in the Old Testament. So save your prude
attitudes for a forum like: talk.sodomy.is.bad.in.the.eyes.of.god. and
stuff. I know my Bible better than you do.
> I'm sorry you find mindless bigotry to be so attractive, Ioannis, and
> the seductive mischief of jingoism so enthralling.
No, no, no. You've got the wrong picture K%nt. I'll give you an example:
I would nuke the semites _next to last_ if I had a chance to do so. I
would probably nuke all the filth that surrounds us here first, like
Bulgarians, Albanians, Serbs, Yugoslavians, Turks, ending with the most
resilient survivors: The Brits, the Germans, the French and the
Americans. Then I would nuke the Jews. Finally and for the biggest bang
of all, I would nuke the Greeks. I am not an anti-semite K^nt. I am an
anti-x. (Insert x for your favourite country).
Anybody "blindly patriotic" enough in _any_ country who does not see the
whole thing for what it is, a n-chotomy to keep the world separated,
deserves to be nuked. Along with his/her country, because he/she got
those ideas as a result from being raised there.
The only human beings that do _not_ deserve to be nuked, are the ones
who have this strange, yet unfathomable trait, called "human
compassion/understanding" for a fellow human being, whether be it for a
Jew a Polack or a Turk.
It's those human beings who when they look at you straight into your
eyes, you do not perceive of a "race" or a "country", rather of an
incarnation of God. Have you seen such human beings K*nt?
I am in search of such human beings. Their breed is dying K9nt. Do you
know what I am talking about?
> All the Greeks have
> given us recently is the bad example of Cyprus, the massive
> self-indulgance of shipping hieresses, and oh, yes, Feta cheese, for
> which I am suitably grateful.
You've managed to change the subject again. I was not talking about
Modern Greeks, as they have very little in common with their Ancient
counterparts, except from perhaps sharing small bits of random genetic
code. As much as I would want to praise Modern Greeks, being one, I
cannot, because their shortcomings are overwhelmingly greater than those
of their forefathers.
It is true that Modern Greeks have very few achievements in record
compared, but you have to also consider the fact that Greece gained its
independence only in 1821 from those animals on the East, the Turks, so
you cannot possibly even _expect_ a nation that has resorted to kissing
asses of Sultans and Pashas for 400 years in order to survive, to
suddently drop all of their _aquired_ shortcomings, re, paranoia, fear
of being attacked for no reason, xenophobia and all those goodies, and
suddently produce a second Parthenon.
These were 400 years K&nt. 400 fucking years of oppression, of ridicule
and idlessness. While the rest of Western Europe was producing Requiems
and Arts of Fugues, we were concerned with hiding our young kids so that
they would not be collected by the Turks and be made into Janissaries.
An army of Greeks, raised and programmed to hate their origins and to
fight Greeks.
And then you have the audacity to say that the Greeks "misbehaved" in
Cyprus. And what exactly were the first inhabitants of Cyprus 2,500
years ago? Turks?
> xanthian.
>
> [Horrible unfairness to Greeks in general, the contributions of Greek
> culture, Greece's place in the world and as a US ally, all freely
> admitted, but being nice to an anti-Semite is beyond my abilities, and
> me an anti-theist.]
Nobody asks you to NOT be nice to a Jew. I will be the first one to
admit that Jews had a big share of trouble and ill history. But admiting
that their history has been full of unfairness, because they were always
chased around as scapegoats since time immemorial, has nothing to do
with the fact that the biggest lie and hoax in the world today,
originated from them, BEFORE they were chased around.
> --
> Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Kent Paul Dolan
> Kent Paul Dolan wrote:
> [snip]
> > Well, no, they felt so threatened by reason they condemned Socrates to
> > drink poison,
> That's _one_ famous example. Are we gonna stick on that for the rest of
> eternity?
Umm, I'm no specialist in Greek history, so I can't name names, but
Greeks, if they didn't _invent_ exile, at least made it famous. Those
ancient Greeks were so intolerant of any thinking process that deviated
a millimeter from the norm of the nonce, they were constantly driving
people out of town with a nice "return and you die" kind of farewell
message.
> Socrates' teachings were invariably so advanced even for the
> sophists and philosophers of the time, that they could not possibly
> assimilate his message effectively into society cause it would bring the
> entire machinery down.
You are cribbing that line from his detractors. It was hogwash then, it
is hogwash now.
> Are you familiar with what society did to
> "someone" who recently claimed: "Do what thou wilt"? Do I need to
> mention any names? I'll be really surprised if you know who I am talking
> about.
You are right, I don't. Doesn't matter much to me, though you may do
your little dance of triumph if you want. I don't claim omniscience,
and I'm still "just an egg" in learning wisdom.
> Socrates did not advocate "Do what thou wilt" of course, but his true
> message was akin to: "All of you are taking "this" too seriously", which
> is very close to the "Do what thou wilt" thingy. Now ANY society would
> most certainly immediately crucify such an advocate. Even today.
Sorry, not so; we have a nationful of survivors of the 1960's on this
side of the lesser puddle, who advocated exactly that and went on to
sell out and become capitalists.
> > only found leisure to let the privileged few practice
> > reason by running an economy in which 90% were slaves,
> Oh, pHHlease. Don't get me started on cotton cultivating fields in the
> States, now. Here's the pot calling the kettle black. Slavery in Ancient
> Greece was practiced 2,500 years ago. Christ Jesus had not walked the
> earth yet. In the States it was practiced three generations ago. And
> your poor blacks could not even _buy_ their freedom.
Take a look at the most recent Scientific American, the article on
slavery in the world today. That one can buy ones way out of slavery in
theory does not make it possible for more than a small minority, in
practice.
And anyway, your changing the subject doesn't modify the fact that the
culture of "reason" you ask us all to emulate only had time for reason
because they kept 90% of the population in bondage. Women, of course,
were chattle then as now, with extremely rare exceptions, so really it
was 95%.
> > fought constantly
> > among themselves because they couldn't *reason* about any political
> > entity bigger than a polis,
>
> They still do. That was always one of the bad traits of that race. Of
> course there is an alternate perspective to this and it is that constant
> fighting allows only the most resilient shit to float, but I guess you
> wouldn't like this approach.
I'm a Heinlein social darwinist; I'm just pointing out that, for
example, the 400 years of bondage that has your teeth still set against
modern Turks who were not born when it occurred, would not have happened
if the Greeks, possessed of much superior technology and science, had
managed to stop raping one another long enough to notice there was a
hungry enemy prowling nearby.
> > and considered sodomy superior to
> > intercourse.
> Which means what exactly? That the Ancient Greeks were the only ones who
> practiced sodomy? Are you for real? Have you seen some of the stuff in
> the Old Testament? Don't make me go search for things like "women who
> were lying with men whose organs were the size those of donkeys..", or
> "when the visitors came they were propositioned by the men in the city
> so they had to hide in x's house...",
Which is worse, your unreasoning hate, or your unreason? I cannot make
the call.
> and other good stuff. Even the
> word "Sodomy" comes from Sodom in the Old Testament. So save your prude
> attitudes for a forum like: talk.sodomy.is.bad.in.the.eyes.of.god. and
> stuff. I know my Bible better than you do.
Ummm. You perhaps misunderstand, perhaps merely rant to draw attention
away from the flaws of your argument. Sodomy as a general practice is
anti-survival.
> > I'm sorry you find mindless bigotry to be so attractive, Ioannis, and
> > the seductive mischief of jingoism so enthralling.
>
> No, no, no. You've got the wrong picture K%nt. I'll give you an example:
> I would nuke the semites _next to last_ if I had a chance to do so.
[...]
> I am not an anti-semite K^nt. I am an
> anti-x. (Insert x for your favourite country).
Bullshit. You can't open your mouth without spewing anti-semitism; you
give pammi a run for her money in that regard. I once shared a bus-ride
with a scholarly Muslim cleric, who claimed no animosity toward Jews and
to have love in his heart for all of mankind equally. Yet no paragraph
he spoke omitted a slam at Jews or Judaism. Your spew smells the same,
and your denial of being a rabid anit-semite is equally vacuuous.
> Anybody "blindly patriotic" enough in _any_ country who does not see the
> whole thing for what it is, a n-chotomy to keep the world separated,
> deserves to be nuked. Along with his/her country, because he/she got
> those ideas as a result from being raised there.
Umm, and so your unjustified hatred of Turks, constantly reiterated even
here, has nothing to do with your national origins or the propaganda
mill at whose teat you feed? Give me a break.
> The only human beings that do _not_ deserve to be nuked, are the ones
> who have this strange, yet unfathomable trait, called "human
> compassion/understanding" for a fellow human being, whether be it for a
> Jew a Polack or a Turk.
Not being one, how on earth would you recognize one?
> It's those human beings who when they look at you straight into your
> eyes, you do not perceive of a "race" or a "country", rather of an
> incarnation of God. Have you seen such human beings K*nt?
As an anti-theist, of course not.
> I am in search of such human beings. Their breed is dying K9nt. Do you
> know what I am talking about?
Their breed never existed, Ioannis; do you know what I am talking about?
> but you have to also consider the fact that Greece gained its
> independence only in 1821 from those animals on the East, the Turks,
2002 - 1821 = 181 years, or at least nine generations, and to you they
are still "animals" _today_; you don't see any problem with this
thinking process? Hate, propagated, is just more hate, more death, more
suffering; it doesn't turn from dross to gold with time.
> And then you have the audacity to say that the Greeks "misbehaved" in
> Cyprus. And what exactly were the first inhabitants of Cyprus 2,500
> years ago? Turks?
I believe even today they would call themselves Cypriots, and would wish
both their oppressors, Turks and Greeks, to go dance their dance with
the devil, elsewhere.
And the presumption that Cyprus was sitting empty 2,500 years ago, is
too silly for contemplation; compared to islands settled much earlier
all across the Pacific, it sits cheek by jowl with inhabited lands; any
Greeks were invaders, not settlers, and had as little right to the land
as Europeans did to North America. Try to remember who writes the
histories.
xanthian, who has friends from many cultures, and finds them all pretty
much the same once you get past the accents and the funny clothes.
Ioannis
> Umm, I'm no specialist in Greek history,
Well it shows. You might consider reading some Plato in particular to
find out what I am talking about. Because you are too dense for me to
infuse sense into you.
> so I can't name names, but
> Greeks, if they didn't _invent_ exile, at least made it famous. Those
> ancient Greeks were so intolerant of any thinking process that deviated
> a millimeter from the norm of the nonce, they were constantly driving
> people out of town with a nice "return and you die" kind of farewell
> message.
There's one more good example: You know what the Spartans did to the
newborn when it was disabled or had some major deformity? The summoned
up a committe of elders who subsequently decided on whether the baby
should or not be thrown in Kaiadas, a famous canyon in Sparta. Your
parents should have done the same to you.
[snip]
> You are cribbing that line from his detractors. It was hogwash then, it
> is hogwash now.
Actually if Socrates' message was taken a bit more seriously today,
there'd be less war, less famine, less pain and less suffering. It's
because of pseudo-prudes like you that we have all the strife and
confusion. If I could help it, I'd make lampshades off of your ilk.
[snip]
> You are right, I don't. Doesn't matter much to me, though you may do
> your little dance of triumph if you want. I don't claim omniscience,
> and I'm still "just an egg" in learning wisdom.
Yeah, and from the way things are going, you'll probably _die_ "just an
egg in learning wisdom". It's like they say: Some people never learn. My
condolences.
> Women, of course,
> were chattle then as now, with extremely rare exceptions, so really it
> was 95%.
And that's exactly how it _should_ be. When the cunt is free to rule,
usually disaster befalls, socially and/or otherwise. Take a look at some
older civilizations like the Minoan, the pre-Greek inhabitants, etc, all
of which were peaceful matriarchal groups that were swept away with a
single blow when the Northerns invaded. (And incidentally, the Dorians,
Achaians and Ionians that invaded the Greek peninsula before time
immemorial, apparently were of Keltic origin from as much as I can
surmise).
[snip]
> I'm a Heinlein social darwinist; I'm just pointing out that, for
> example, the 400 years of bondage that has your teeth still set against
> modern Turks who were not born when it occurred, would not have happened
> if the Greeks, possessed of much superior technology and science, had
> managed to stop raping one another long enough to notice there was a
> hungry enemy prowling nearby.
The reason it happened, butthead, was because the middle-age decendants
of the Greeks, the Graikoi or Romioi, which were part of the Byzantine
Empire, were too much occupied and blinded with Christianity and its
associated bullshit, which Saul of Tarsus went to tremendous trouble to
spread coming to Athens, Salonica and Corinth.
THE major cause of the deterioration of the Greek City States _was_ the
adoption of Christianity, which was well orchestrated by the
schizophrenic Saul. Of course, we can't blame anyone for our stupidity
in _accepting_ the doctrine, but it somehow makes me feel better that
your entire nation is enslaved in it as well.
> Which is worse, your unreasoning hate, or your unreason? I cannot make
> the call.
Yeap. When we cannot address the question, let's call unreason's
auspices. Bravo Kent. Fact remains that Hebrew history, at least as much
as can be surmised from this disgusting mind-enslaving manual disguised
as "history", the Old Testament, contains sexual material which would
make two Greeks fucking each other in the ass, blush with shame.
> Bullshit. You can't open your mouth without spewing anti-semitism; you
> give pammi a run for her money in that regard.
Are you this dense? I told you I am anti-x, with x being ANYTHING. You
want to call me anti-French? I am _that_ too. You want to call me
anti-semitic? I am _that_ too. Anti-Bulgarian? THAT TOO, you clueless
moron! But the metaphor behind such a strong stance, totally escapes
you, because you are too stupid to comprehend what my message is.
> I once shared a bus-ride
> with a scholarly Muslim cleric, who claimed no animosity toward Jews and
> to have love in his heart for all of mankind equally. Yet no paragraph
> he spoke omitted a slam at Jews or Judaism. Your spew smells the same,
> and your denial of being a rabid anit-semite is equally vacuuous.
[snip]
Fuck the Muslim, and fuck you too. I am done arguing with you. It's
better to try to read your mindless off-topics than trying to argue with
you.
> xanthian, who has friends from many cultures, and finds them all pretty
> much the same once you get past the accents and the funny clothes.
Yes. Osama Bin Laden and George W. Bush, have exactly the same net
worth. Idiot.
Some people will remain _forever_ asleep. Goody night Kent. Nice dreams.
> --
> Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
Scott Dorsey
>drink poison, only found leisure to let the privileged few practice
>reason by running an economy in which 90% were slaves, fought constantly
>among themselves because they couldn't *reason* about any political
>entity bigger than a polis, and considered sodomy superior to
>intercourse.
Hey, what are you running down sodomy for? I think sodomy deserves better
than to be lumped in with all of these faults.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Kent Paul Dolan
Some lunatic trying to talk sense into a schizophrenic wrote:
[...]
> There's one more good example: You know what the Spartans did to the
> newborn when it was disabled or had some major deformity? The summoned
> up a committe of elders who subsequently decided on whether the baby
> should or not be thrown in Kaiadas, a famous canyon in Sparta.
Well aware of that. Ever see the ending of _Quigley Down Under_? I
said I wasn't an expert, I didn't claim total ignorance.
> > You are cribbing that line from his detractors. It was hogwash then, it
> > is hogwash now.
> Actually if Socrates' message was taken a bit more seriously today,
> there'd be less war, less famine, less pain and less suffering.
Which was responsive to my remark exactly how?
> Yeah, and from the way things are going, you'll probably _die_ "just an
> egg in learning wisdom".
I should hope so. People who think they have all the answers at any
point, stop trying to learn. You apparently gave up right after you
were weaned off your original diet of mother's milk and political
mindrot.
> > Women, of course,
> > were chattle then as now, with extremely rare exceptions, so really it
> > was 95%.
> And that's exactly how it _should_ be. When the [woman] is free to rule,
> usually disaster befalls, socially and/or otherwise.
Margarate Thatcher, Indira Ghandi, both their countries absolutely _fell
apart_ because the boss wore a skirt.
> The reason it happened, butthead, was because the middle-age decendants
> of the Greeks, the Graikoi or Romioi, which were part of the Byzantine
> Empire, were too much occupied and blinded with Christianity and its
> associated bullshit, which Saul of Tarsus went to tremendous trouble to
> spread coming to Athens, Salonica and Corinth.
_One man_ felled an empire so suffused with reason that we should admire
it ever after, by feeding it mindrot contrary to reason? Perhaps the
rule of reason wasn't so strong, admirable, or worth commeratingand
imitating, as you would have us bellieve?
> THE major cause of the deterioration of the Greek City States _was_ the
> adoption of Christianity, which was well orchestrated by the
> schizophrenic Saul.
Nonsense. The major cause of deterioration of the Greek poli was
exactly that they were poli, and had never had the ability to form a
sufficiently large political unit to deal with an increasingly much
better organized cast of surrounding military powers.
You are just trying to push the blame for your culture's political
stupidity off on some minor religous sect that dropped into a power
vacuum Greeks created without any outside help at all, and flourished
there.
That is an example of the famous psychobabble term "cognative
disonance", trying to make the rest of the world conform to the bad
decisions you've made. You and my estranged spouse should give lessons.
> Of course, we can't blame anyone for our stupidity
> in _accepting_ the doctrine,
Yet you do so, in your own mind and here. It could as easily have been
Mithrans from the west as Christians from the southeast; Greece was just
ripe to be plucked.
> but it somehow makes me feel better that
> your entire nation is enslaved in it as well.
Not quite, just the more conservative of our leadership. The vast
dichotomy between those who mark "I am a Christian" on pollster's
questionnaires (about 85%) , and those let theistic mindrot keep them
from doing pretty much whatever they want (maybe 2%) is too wide to
leave me really worried for America.
> > Which is worse, your unreasoning hate, or your unreason? I cannot make
> > the call.
> Yeap. When we cannot address the question, let's call unreason's
> auspices. Bravo Kent. Fact remains that Hebrew history, at least as much
> as can be surmised from this disgusting mind-enslaving manual disguised
> as "history", the Old Testament, contains sexual material which would
> make two Greeks fucking each other in the ass, blush with shame.
Well, you read into what you want, but it certainly isn't a book safely
left around for children to read, which most Christian sects are careful
to enforce. It also doesn't contain what you see there through hate
damaged vision.
> > Bullshit. You can't open your mouth without spewing anti-semitism; you
> > give pammi a run for her money in that regard.
> Are you this dense? I told you I am anti-x, with x being ANYTHING.
Sorry, that is a fabrication and an evasion. You do _not_ spring
suddenly in every third posting into anti-x hate-spew, except where x
has the value "Jew" or "Turk".
> I am done arguing with you.
How nice a surprise for me.
> It's
> better to try to read your mindless off-topics than trying to argue with
> you.
That you cannot maintain your self control, rapidly descend into name
calling, lose whatever control of your vocabulary you might once have
attained, cannot directly answer any of the points I make, cannot come
close to constructing a rational argument under these internal
handicaps, and, frankly, are losing even in your own eyes, of course
have nothing to do with this decision.
Still, it is nice to know my banter has attracted a new fan club since
Joe English departed for a life of drudgery in the Real World. We'll
get together to teach you the kool sekrut rituals Real Soon Now.
> > xanthian, who has friends from many cultures, and finds them all pretty
> > much the same once you get past the accents and the funny clothes.
> Yes. Osama Bin Laden and George W. Bush, have exactly the same net
> worth. Idiot.
No, I'd put Bin Laden considerably ahead of Bush. Bin Laden has done
far less damage to America, and for better defined reasons.
xanthian.
Kent Paul Dolan
> Kent Paul Dolan <xant...@well.com> wrote:
> > and considered sodomy superior to intercourse.
> Hey, what are you running down sodomy for?
For about six words.
> I think sodomy deserves better
> than to be lumped in with all of these faults.
Depends on the flavor; somes I likes, somes I does not. Comes of being
raised het. Folks without that handicap seem to have a lot more fun and
a wider variety of friends. Some of those folks are my close relatives.
xanthian, former lust object of a gay guy at work, and we're _still_
friends. Aazh, you out there anywhere?
I can get along with about anybody except _really determined_ idiots;
there my tolerance stops, sadly.
Mark Lippert
> Seeing what this elicited made me wonder whether I'd done
> the right thing...
When I die, you're welcome to pour all the whiskey you want on my grave.
Mark "Or any other boozey goodness" Lippert
Scott Dorsey
>
>> I think sodomy deserves better
>> than to be lumped in with all of these faults.
>
>Depends on the flavor; somes I likes, somes I does not. Comes of being
>raised het. Folks without that handicap seem to have a lot more fun and
>a wider variety of friends. Some of those folks are my close relatives.
Sodomy has nothing to do with gender or sexual orientation, and that is
the most wonderful thing about it. You can be male or female, gay or
straight, and still engage in sodomy. This marvelous practice is indeed
the most universal of all sexual acts.
Chakaal The Indifferent
Scott Dorsey <klu...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>Sodomy has nothing to do with gender or sexual orientation, and that is
>the most wonderful thing about it. You can be male or female, gay or
>straight, and still engage in sodomy. This marvelous practice is indeed
>the most universal of all sexual acts.
>--scott
>--
>"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Uh, dood. You stay right over there and I'll stay right here and
nobody will get hurt.
--Chak
David James Polewka
>Sodomy has nothing to do with gender or sexual orientation, and that is
>the most wonderful thing about it. You can be male or female, gay or
>straight, and still engage in sodomy. This marvelous practice is indeed
>the most universal of all sexual acts.
This marvelous practice (sodomy) is indeed the most
universal of all sexual acts -- anagram
***************************************************************
Mr. Scott Dorsey said: "Hell, I love assholes, laxatives,
munitions. Cut me up, Dr. Faeca!"
***************************************************************
=======================
"Endeavor to persevere"
=======================
nikolai kingsley
> Which means what exactly? That the Ancient Greeks were the only ones who
> practiced sodomy? Are you for real? Have you seen some of the stuff in
> the Old Testament? Don't make me go search for things like "women who
> were lying with men whose organs were the size those of donkeys..", or
Ezekiel, chapter 23. and it was a political allegory; no actual laying
took place at just that point. why am i bothering to reply to this? i
think all societies outside of the Maracite inner circle are bizarre,
unhygienic monkey-troups.
nikolai
---
and so does what's-his-name