Mountaineering Training : Stairmaster, Elliptical or Arc Trainier
Kevin
for training your legs for climbing. I'm heading to Mt. Rainier this
July and want to train as much as I can for it. Of course the machines
are no substitude for hiking/climbing but during the week its all i
have.
Anyone have experience using these for a climbing trip? Please state
how long you did each machine and on what level.
Thanks,
Kevin
kbur...@yahoo.com
Shilajit T Gangulee
: Can anyone comment on the effectiveness of the following gym machines
put 40 or 50 pounds in a pack and stairmaster for a couple of hours a
couplathree times a week. once in a while get blind stinking hammered on
tequila the night before, then do this with a screaming hangover to
simulate altitude.
Thor Lancelot Simon
Heh. I approve of your training technique. I use it too sometimes.
One thing to keep in mind is that climbing a stairmaster with a pack
isn't really the same as climbing stairs with a pack; you don't end up
actually lifting the pack as you would when climbing stairs -- or a hill,
or a mountain. It's like a simple high school physics problem: when you're
done climbing 500 feet of stairs, the potential energy of the pack is that
much higher -- it's 500 feet off the ground. That means you did work to
get it there. When you're done climbing 500 feet on the stairmaster, the
potential energy of the pack is the same as it was when you started; so
you know that you skipped the work of hauling it up 500 feet.
If you're stuck in the city, a tall building in which you can access the
fire stairs is a nice way to get a workout with a pack on, better than
the stairmaster even, and you can work the "going down" muscles in your
legs, too -- just don't barf on one of the landings. ;-)
--
Thor Lancelot Simon t...@rek.tjls.com
But as he knew no bad language, he had called him all the names of common
objects that he could think of, and had screamed: "You lamp! You towel! You
plate!" and so on. --Sigmund Freud
nafod40
I have absolutely nothing useful to say about any of the machines you
just mentioned. However...
A killer leg workout that can be done on the cheap is a set of "Tabata
Squats" from the http://www.crossfit.com website. Just body weight, no
machines required. I run up a mountain on a regular basis, and thought
my legs were fairly sturdy. I was whimpering for a week after the
exercise. It'd help build the leg muscles up.
Good site in general for overall fitness.
Mike
Dingus Milktoast
"Kevin" <kbur...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:e218cf0f.0312...@posting.google.com...
I use Versaclimbers, Stepmills and eliptical trainers.
In a typical week:
I will spend one or two 30 minute sessions on the versaclimber at
1000'/minute pace. This is more of a rock climbing related exercise than it
is a mountain slogging one. I can't do more than this without significant
over use injury risk.
I spend 3-4 30 minute sessions on a Step Mill. If you are unfamiliar with
these machines, they are what Stairmasters should be, if they were worth a
damn. I feel stepping exercises are the ticket for mountaineering, skiing
and peak bagging routines. Part of the process of walking, especially in
climbing a mountain, requires one to pick up one's feet. Stairmasters do
nothing to promote this and I believe foster a lazy foot. Step Mills, on the
other hand, are essentially a 4-step DOWN escalator. You walk... or fall off
the bottom. And you have to pick your feet up too. At first it seems
pathetically easy... just put the machine on 10, select a ramdom speed
pattern and prepared to have your ass kicked. This is the single best
mountaineering exercise I do.
I also spend 3-4 sessions a week on an eliptical trainer with the cross
country handles. It helps the cardio aspect but isn't a specific
mountaineering exercise. I don't believe it helps my thighs all that much.
Lastly, 3-4 times a week I do 800 stomach crunches, 100 in each of 8
positions. 50 of each set I hold at the top of the arc for a full second and
the other 50 I crank off as fast as I can. I do not stop or even slow down
when changing positions so I do all 800 in one go. This has done more for my
sustainability in mountaineering than I would have ever believed. These
crunches really help me breath better when climbing. Strong core, strong
body I guess.
I've been doing this for some 2 or 3 years, with my focus waxing and wanning
through out the year.
Arc trainers feel too odd to me, too unnatural a gate. Certainly not
mountaineering related. And they look goofy too!
That's my story. I'm sticking to it.
DMT
Shilajit T Gangulee
: I spend 3-4 30 minute sessions on a Step Mill. If you are unfamiliar with
: these machines, they are what Stairmasters should be, if they were worth a
: damn. I feel stepping exercises are the ticket for mountaineering, skiing
Stepmills (nee "The Gauntlet (they changed the name to be less
intimidating)), are what i think of when i say "stairmaster". the other
kind are worth exactly dick.
Martin Carpenter
> I use Versaclimbers, Stepmills and eliptical trainers.
Not a single mention of the Concept II rowing machines (Erg)? I love
these things, primarily because they nail everything in nice efficient
way. I just can't find the motivation for those
treadmill/stairmaster/versaclimer objects.
Shilajit T Gangulee
People who erg fall into two categories: those who rowed in college/high
school and miss puking on the erg, and those who didn't row in college/high
school and aspire to puking on the erg
Dingus Milktoast
"Martin Carpenter" <mcarp...@free.fr> wrote in message
news:slrnbu1gvm.q...@phenix.rootshell.be...
Good GOD man!!! What, are you a climber or a galley slave???
DMT
John Sindell
> intimidating)), are what i think of when i say "stairmaster". the other
> kind are worth exactly dick.
I've exchanged some emails with Kevin, but I'm not sure I ever clarified
that this is the machine I also mean when I refer to a stairmaster. My
ortho surgeon told me he'd refuse to treat me unless I kept off the
gauntlet. That was 4.5 years ago, and I've rarely been back on one
since. I don't really see a major problem with them until the user gets
fatigued and loses good form. This results in stomping on the stairs
and unhappy knees (it my case, at least).
--
John Q. Sindell Jr.
j...@pikapp.net
http://jqs.pikapp.net
Mike Garrison
>
> If you're stuck in the city, a tall building in which you can access the
> fire stairs is a nice way to get a workout with a pack on, better than
> the stairmaster even, and you can work the "going down" muscles in your
> legs, too -- just don't barf on one of the landings. ;-)
Yeah, I've got to say that stairs would probably be more
realistic than any of the stairstepping machines. Especially
in the "going down" phase.
-Mike
jj
machine is veritable horse-shit.
To get in shape for the big mountains, go uphill with a load. Any kind of
hill: stairs, street, rock, grass - anything. It's the only way to actually
make progress. Riding your bike is also great for the legs and cardio. Just
be sure to be climbing or bombing downhill.
I tried all combinations of working out in the gym before doing Rainier and
it didn't do shit. I spent more time outdoors with a pack before a month in
the Cordillera Blanca and did much better.
In training for my next trip I'm living on my bike and in my boots. Cold,
hot, night or day. And yes, I work days also, so just get over it and stay
out of the gym.
The sooner you realize that pussy gym trainers don't know what they're
talking about and haven't a clue as to how to be a hardman, the sooner
you'll train the right way for being at altitude.
Gaston Rebuffat
> One thing to keep in mind is that climbing a stairmaster with a pack
> isn't really the same as climbing stairs with a pack; you don't end up
> actually lifting the pack as you would when climbing stairs -- or a hill,
> or a mountain. It's like a simple high school physics problem: when you're
> done climbing 500 feet of stairs, the potential energy of the pack is that
> much higher -- it's 500 feet off the ground. That means you did work to
> get it there. When you're done climbing 500 feet on the stairmaster, the
> potential energy of the pack is the same as it was when you started; so
> you know that you skipped the work of hauling it up 500 feet.
You're right, but for the wrong reason.
If you move your knees up and down a lot while the pack stays still,
THEN you haven't done any mechanical work. I think you mean to say
that this occurs with a stairmaster workout.
However, lifting it six inches, 1000 times, is the same thing as
lifting it 500 feet once.
By your logic, hiking up 500 feet and then descending performs no
work, because the potential energy "is the same as when you started".
I prefer the "step mill" variety - YMMV of course
http://www.stairmaster.com/commercial/products/stairclimbers/stepmills/
Marc Slemko
> One thing to keep in mind is that climbing a stairmaster with a pack
> isn't really the same as climbing stairs with a pack; you don't end up
> actually lifting the pack as you would when climbing stairs -- or a hill,
> or a mountain. It's like a simple high school physics problem: when you're
> done climbing 500 feet of stairs, the potential energy of the pack is that
> much higher -- it's 500 feet off the ground. That means you did work to
> get it there. When you're done climbing 500 feet on the stairmaster, the
> potential energy of the pack is the same as it was when you started; so
> you know that you skipped the work of hauling it up 500 feet.
Sure, but you are actually doing work against the friction of the
stair climbing machine.
So if it is possible to turn the friction up high enough (high enough
that you can't reasonably use it just with body weight) then adding
the pack means you are doing more work that you couldn't do otherwise
since the friction would be too high to make the machine move without
using your arms.
It isn't necessarily a very nice or effective way to use a stair
climbing machine, but it is usually possible to varying degrees.
But yes, nothing beats real motion.
Christopher A. Kantarjiev
Yeah, I erg in the winter, when my motivation is far too low to play on
the step mill as much as I would need to (and I'm not getting out in the
hills on the weekend). I agree - a nice balanced workout, and does a
good job on my legs and glutes in particular.
No matter what's on your iPod, or mine at least, I can't do an hour on
the step mill four times a week in winter. Ick. But I find I can vary
the erg workout to keep myself interested.
The puking thing: not so much.
> Lastly, 3-4 times a week I do 800 stomach crunches,
That is just so sick.
Dingus Milktoast
"Mike Garrison" <mike.g...@boeing.com> wrote
> Yeah, I've got to say that stairs would probably be more
> realistic than any of the stairstepping machines. Especially
> in the "going down" phase.
I find them too real, especially going down. Too hard on the knees, shins
and feet. The step mill takes the punishment out of stair climbing.
DMT
Kevin
single day with a pack but i don't. Unfortunately during the week its
gonna have to be in the gym training and hikes on the weekends.
kbur...@yahoo.com (Kevin) wrote in message news:<e218cf0f.0312...@posting.google.com>...
Michael Hunt
> The effectiveniess of using a stairmaster, eliptical, bike or anything other
> machine is veritable horse-shit.
>
> To get in shape for the big mountains, go uphill with a load. Any kind of
> hill: stairs, street, rock, grass - anything. It's the only way to actually
> make progress. Riding your bike is also great for the legs and cardio. Just
> be sure to be climbing or bombing downhill.
>
> I tried all combinations of working out in the gym before doing Rainier and
> it didn't do shit. I spent more time outdoors with a pack before a month in
> the Cordillera Blanca and did much better.
Jesus Christ. It's only Rainier people. 800 crunches? Wow.
I'm 3 for 3 on Rainier and can't crush a single Brazil nut in my navel
like the crunch guy probably can. I'm sure I'll suffer on LR this
summer because of it.
But yeah, drag a big, huge pack up. Go for half your body weight. Wear
the boots you're going to wear too. Wear the pack you're going to
bring. Stairs tend to create more injuries for me than a real hill.
Especially going down stairs. Find a real hill. Do at least 1 all-day
steep 14+ miler a week.
The single, best training I've ever found for climbing at altitude is
my misery-biking. I'm talkin' long-distance 6-10-hours in the saddle
with no breaks type biking. Plot the worst route you can imagine with
as many miserable uphills as you can find. Push yourself but don't
worry about speed. Let the terrain dictate your pace and learn to pace
yourself for the long haul. I'm usually lucky to break 10-11mph
average on my hell rides. Drink plenty of H20 and bring lots of Gu.
Learn to eat and drink well ahead of schedule. Learn that some days
you'll be slower and some days noticeably faster, often for no
reason.....
No equipment needed except a pack and a bike.
Give yourself enough time to acclimate around 9-11k(1-2 days). Don't
do the stupid guided 2-day death march thing. It's an awesome little
mountain, enjoy it.
-Mike
Martin Carpenter
> Good GOD man!!! What, are you a climber or a galley slave???
Look, don't you get all snotty with me just because you think your
metal and plastic fetish-machine is more mountain-like than my metal
and plastic fetish-machine. Okay?
And something else:
Where are all those stair climber and treadmill abominations
in the City Gymnasium? I'll tell you where they are. Are they facing
one another? No, they are not. Are they arranged in cosy circles? No,
they are not. They are lined up against the window so that passing folks
see apparently healthy active running people "going for the burn",
or whatever it is that you like to pretend to be doing.
So when you notice the Cute Blonde Girl (you know the one, there's
always one - no, not the one with the bare feet and the paperback,
forever languidly paddling on the exercise bike; she has strange eyes
and looks crazy to me THIS IS NOT A LIBRARY DAMMIT - the other girl,
stepping determinedly with her shiny hair tied back), when you notice
her, I say, you decide to wait by the water cooler for a slot to come
up on the machine next to hers.
"Pre-exercise hydration is important", you tell yourself. "Everyone
knows that". You sip. You wait.
And finally there you are, waddling on the step-mill-next-door, mindlessly
pumping up and down and up and down and... But can you get a good leering
letch? No! No you cannot! That would be far too obvious. She would see
your gawping perspiring face. (I was sorry to learn of your recent
glandular troubles).
Squish squish squish squish squish...
You try and get a little something from the reflection in the window to
reduce the monotony and frustration of it all but there's
a group of children pulling faces at you from the street and
pointing at your knees. (I understand that you have knees that are
quite characteristic? How charming!).
The CBG turns up the volume on her MP3 player.
Squish squish squish squish squish...
How do you feel now, you who might proclaim yourself "Master of
Stairs"? Ha!
And what of the humble rowing machine? The gentle erg, with its linear
motion and soothing hypnogyroscopic whir? It may be alone and looking a
little neglected at the back of the room, supine between the used towel
basket and the free weights, but let me tell you something: There's a
great view from over there.
And I can sit down whilst I take my exercise. And you cannot.
And one more thing:
When The Revolution comes, when the REVOLUTION COMES (for it will come,
I tell you), The People will take one look at your soft, white-collar,
gym-going, StairMaster(tm)-floozy hands, and you will be obliged to
run the gauntlet and then, with your common cousins and sanctimonious
neighbours looking on, you will doubtless endure an extremely unpleasant
end in the market square. (I would not be surprised if rotten fruits
are involved. I am sorry for this).
I, however, will have deeply scarred and calloused hands from my so-called
"slavery". I will pass for one of The People of The Revolution.
And I will live happily ever after with the Cute Blonde Girl from the City
Gymnasium.
Mad Dog
>So when you notice the Cute Blonde Girl (you know the one, there's
>always one - no, not the one with the bare feet and the paperback,
>forever languidly paddling on the exercise bike; she has strange eyes
>and looks crazy to me THIS IS NOT A LIBRARY DAMMIT - the other girl,
>stepping determinedly with her shiny hair tied back), when you notice
>her, I say, you decide to wait by the water cooler for a slot to come
>up on the machine next to hers.
Kinda slow at these things, eh, Martin?
>And finally there you are, waddling on the step-mill-next-door, mindlessly
>pumping up and down and up and down and... But can you get a good leering
>letch? No! No you cannot! That would be far too obvious. She would see
>your gawping perspiring face. (I was sorry to learn of your recent
>glandular troubles).
See, the error of your logic is obvious. The proper position is the machine
BEHIND the CBG. Everyone knows that. Everyone but you, apparently.
>And I will live happily ever after with the Cute Blonde Girl from the City
>Gymnasium.
And I'll be the back door man that's nailing her while you're off masturbating
your rowing machine.
Will Niccolls
> On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 21:49:53 GMT, Dingus Milktoast wrote:
>
>
> > Good GOD man!!! What, are you a climber or a galley slave???
>
> Look, don't you get all snotty with me just because you think your
> metal and plastic fetish-machine is more mountain-like than my metal
> and plastic fetish-machine. Okay?
>
>
>
> And something else:
>
Bravo, Martin.
Will Niccolls
nafod40
> t...@panix.com (Thor Lancelot Simon) wrote in message news:<brqe59$fls$1...@panix5.panix.com>...
>
>>One thing to keep in mind is that climbing a stairmaster with a pack
>>isn't really the same as climbing stairs with a pack; you don't end up
>>actually lifting the pack as you would when climbing stairs -- or a hill,
>>or a mountain. It's like a simple high school physics problem: when you're
>>done climbing 500 feet of stairs, the potential energy of the pack is that
>>much higher -- it's 500 feet off the ground. That means you did work to
>>get it there. When you're done climbing 500 feet on the stairmaster, the
>>potential energy of the pack is the same as it was when you started; so
>>you know that you skipped the work of hauling it up 500 feet.
>
>
> You're right, but for the wrong reason.
>
> If you move your knees up and down a lot while the pack stays still,
> THEN you haven't done any mechanical work. I think you mean to say
> that this occurs with a stairmaster workout.
>
> However, lifting it six inches, 1000 times, is the same thing as
> lifting it 500 feet once.
FINALLY, a chance for a rec.climbing.physics thread.
Work = Force x distance.
IF the pack never moves a curly red hair's distance up or down, but you
have to push with your leg muscles a force equal to the weight of your
fat #$% plus the weight of the overstuffed pack with the case of Schlitz
you should have left in the car, THEN you will have done the work. The
pack does not have to move.
nafod40
>
> See, the error of your logic is obvious. The proper position is the machine
> BEHIND the CBG. Everyone knows that. Everyone but you, apparently.
Duh, Maddog. Where do you think the rowing machine is?
Masterful post, Martin.
Geoff Jennings
> And I will live happily ever after with the Cute Blonde Girl from the City
> Gymnasium.
Best of 2003 without a doubt
Dingus Milktoast
"Martin Carpenter" <mcarp...@free.fr> wrote
> Look, don't you get all snotty with me just because you think your
> metal and plastic fetish-machine is more mountain-like than my metal
> and plastic fetish-machine. Okay?
WHERE DO THEY GET THESE PEOPLE?
DMT
JKVawter
> Thanks everyone for your help. I wish i had the time to hike every
> single day with a pack but i don't. Unfortunately during the week its
> gonna have to be in the gym training and hikes on the weekends.
Here's one more suggestion. I can afford only one gym membership, and
that's the climbing gym, so I don't have cheap access to machines. I
do have a high school track right up the street though. I go to the
concrete bleachers and go up the seats, like skipping steps, and come
down the stairs at an easy pace. To get a harder workout, I don't
run, I just add weight. I stop at the first twinge, and take some
Ibuprofen. After a couple of easy two-a-week sessions, the knee
twinges stop, and I add some weight. Once the knees are conditioned,
I do 1,000 foot sessions. That's 37 times up. I measured it. I have
learned not to go over 50 reps in a session. Better for me to add
weight and keep the reps below 40 to reduce knee irritation. One
advantage of this over a machine is that you can vary the angle that
you approach the next step. In other words, I don't always go
straight up, but "weave" left and right to better simulate real
conditions. I also go up the stairs, and jog around the track to vary
the workout.
JKVawter
Christopher A. Kantarjiev
Kevin wrote:
>
> Thanks everyone for your help. I wish i had the time to hike every
> single day with a pack but i don't. Unfortunately during the week its
> gonna have to be in the gym training and hikes on the weekends.
>
Clyde Soles (yes, our Clyde) wrote a nice article for Outside sometime
last summer about getting fit for mountains. It included a very simple
to follow program that combines cardio and weights. I started on it and
found that it made a huge difference in just a couple of months (ending
in my first successful 14'er).
Kevin
your saying that a cute blonde girl will increase my chances of success on Rainier.
i'm all for it
i'll carry 3 of them up there with me.
"Dingus Milktoast" <noneofyou...@nowhere.com> wrote in message news:<iJjEb.23017$UA1....@news01.roc.ny>...
Mad Dog
>Duh, Maddog. Where do you think the rowing machine is?
As Martin said:
>>It may be alone and looking a little neglected at the back of the room,
And the blonde was at the front window, right?
Crotch Robbins
"Geoff Jennings" <ge...@texaskilonewton.com> wrote:
Yup!
Scott Grimes
--
Cheers,
SMG
John Sindell
> Give yourself enough time to acclimate around 9-11k(1-2 days). Don't
> do the stupid guided 2-day death march thing. It's an awesome little
> mountain, enjoy it.
Death march? Get real. Didn't you just state that it's "only Rainier"?
2 days is plenty as long as you stay hydrated and eat enough.
Kevin, I have one more suggestion if you're climbing with RMI:
If at all possible, do the climb school earlier than 1 day before your
2-day trip. The only requirement is that you've had the training
within the last year. The training hike is not very hard at all, but
it's still a good idea to have some rest time.
You could even use the climb school as part of your training. If you
can come out a couple of weeks before your summit attempt, you could do
the climb school on a Saturday and then hike up to Muir on Sunday. That
would be a pretty good back-to-back experience for you with a little bit
of altitude to deal with.
Kevin
gets pretty good reviews. They have alot of good core exercises and
also give you a checkpoint as in "you should be able to do 1 hr on a
stairmaster at 120 steps/min w/ a 30 pound pack on"
"Christopher A. Kantarjiev" <c...@dimebank.com> wrote in message news:<3FE1D81C...@dimebank.com>...
Theresa Ho
Elevators. Stairs up. Elevators down. You get some odd looks from
the business folks working on the top floor as you wait, sweat-soaked,
for the elevator down the 10th time in a row, but that's part of the
fun.
=)
Theresa
Thor Lancelot Simon
nafod40 <non...@business.com> wrote:
>
>FINALLY, a chance for a rec.climbing.physics thread.
>
>Work = Force x distance.
>
>IF the pack never moves a curly red hair's distance up or down, but you
>have to push with your leg muscles a force equal to the weight of your
>fat #$% plus the weight of the overstuffed pack with the case of Schlitz
>you should have left in the car, THEN you will have done the work. The
>pack does not have to move.
Yeah, but what you're not thinking about is that if the pack never moves
"a curly red hair's distance up or down" then you don't have to push with
your leg muscles any harder than you would if you weren't wearing the
pack.
Yes, wearing a pack on a stairclimbing machine is harder. That's because
your balance muscles have to continually work to keep the pack stable --
and that's all. It's no more work than moving the pack the same distance
by walking with it along a flat road -- well, okay, a little, because on
a Gauntlet, ferinstance, you have to lift your legs high enough that it
fucks with the muscles you're using to balance the pack, may move the pack
a *little* bit up or down, and makes you rebalance it on every step. But
it is far, far less work than hauling that same weight up an actual hill.
Try it. Do the same number of steps, with a 40-pound pack, on an actual
staircase, as you do in a Gauntlet workout. Keep in mind that those
Gauntlet steps are much taller than most staircase steps. You'll still
be way more messed up after actually climbing *up* with the pack, unless
you're Superman and you don't really get messed up much at all by either
effort. :-)
--
Thor Lancelot Simon t...@rek.tjls.com
But as he knew no bad language, he had called him all the names of common
objects that he could think of, and had screamed: "You lamp! You towel! You
plate!" and so on. --Sigmund Freud
nafod40
> In article <3FE1AC9D...@business.com>,
> nafod40 <non...@business.com> wrote:
>
>>FINALLY, a chance for a rec.climbing.physics thread.
>>
>>Work = Force x distance.
>>
>>IF the pack never moves a curly red hair's distance up or down, but you
>>have to push with your leg muscles a force equal to the weight of your
>>fat #$% plus the weight of the overstuffed pack with the case of Schlitz
>>you should have left in the car, THEN you will have done the work. The
>>pack does not have to move.
>
>
> Yeah, but what you're not thinking about is that if the pack never moves
> "a curly red hair's distance up or down" then you don't have to push with
> your leg muscles any harder than you would if you weren't wearing the
> pack.
By that same argument, if you found yourself accidentally on the talus
slope from hell where you never went anywhere as you tried to hike up,
it'd be like you had no pack on.
If you weigh 100 lbs, and your pack weighs 80 lbs, and you stand on one
leg, it is holding 180 lbs.
If you press that leg out for a 1 foot stroke, even if the pack does not
move, then you have done 180 ft-lbs of work. The work went into friction
in the stepper machine.
If you step up on a step, so you and pack go up a foot, then you have
raised the potential energy of the pack/ass system by 180 ft-lbs. The
work from the leg muscles raised the energy. If you take the free ride
down on the stepper, you do not get it back. That loss in energy goes
into heat via friction in the stepper.
nafod40
Thereby providing a view from back to front, yes.
Mad Dog
>> And the blonde was at the front window, right?
>Thereby providing a view from back to front, yes.
Dude, if you wanna hang out in the back of the room while you're checking out
the chickage that's up front, go fer it. I prefer the closer approach.
nafod40
Yea, aging sucks. I guess some day I'll need glasses too.
Clyde
Nah, Mad Dog uses a white cane when he goes to the gym and feels his way
around.
Clyde
> Can anyone comment on the effectiveness of the following gym machines
> for training your legs for climbing. I'm heading to Mt. Rainier this
> July and want to train as much as I can for it. Of course the machines
> are no substitude for hiking/climbing but during the week its all i
> have.
>
> Anyone have experience using these for a climbing trip? Please state
> how long you did each machine and on what level.
Stay off the damned stairmasters/stepmills, especially with a frickin
pack! This is such out-dated advice that keeps getting regurgitated by
the same idiots who talk about fat-burning zones. Your knees get
hammered enough doing the real thing so compounding the punishment on
those antiques is only a last-resort option (and *never* use the hand
rails!). Running stairs isn't a whole lot better. It's a bunch of hooey
to say they are "more specific" to mountaineering.
Eliptical/arc/XC trainers are at least more knee-friendly, but wearing a
pack is nonsense there too. If you're stuck in a gym, spinning bikes
give the best cardio and variety of leg muscle usage. Treadmills aren't
too bad if you crank the angle up to max and learn good form.
Get strong by using weights, get fit by going hard (and smart) on the
cardio. Waste time and get mediocre results by doing both at once. And
really waste time by doing 3000 crunches a week.
As for how long/how hard, that's a matter of where you're starting at
and where you want to end up. If you wanna slog up that mountain, just
do the low-medium intensity like most of the gym bunnies. If you wanna
enjoy the climb, then ya gotta train harder more often. Believe it or
not, there's actually a whole book on this subject.
Dingus Milktoast
"Clyde" <ne...@clydesoles.com> wrote
> Waste time and get mediocre results by doing both at once. And
> really waste time by doing 3000 crunches a week.
>
Whatever. Make all the arrogant pronouncements you wish, especially if it
helps you sell some books.
DMT
Clyde
> > Waste time and get mediocre results by doing both at once. And
> > really waste time by doing 3000 crunches a week.
> >
>
> Whatever. Make all the arrogant pronouncements you wish,
Hey, if it works for you, whatever. But there I haven't seen any science
to support that level. Cary to post a study? Try pilates, no studies
either but at least there are attractive women to watch while you train
the core.
John Sindell
[snip]
I sure hope you're not an engineer or science teacher.
Mad Dog
>> Dude, if you wanna hang out in the back of the room while you're checking out
>> the chickage that's up front, go fer it. I prefer the closer approach.
>Yea, aging sucks. I guess some day I'll need glasses too.
Guess again, soldier boy.
Mad Dog
>Nah, Mad Dog uses a white cane when he goes to the gym and feels his way
>around.
That's not a cane, but it does a fine job of feeling around, sonny!
Old Man Caballo
>Get strong by using weights, get fit by going hard (and smart) on the
>cardio. Waste time and get mediocre results by doing both at once. And
>really waste time by doing 3000 crunches a week.
>
>As for how long/how hard, that's a matter of where you're starting at
>and where you want to end up. If you wanna slog up that mountain, just
>do the low-medium intensity like most of the gym bunnies. If you wanna
>enjoy the climb, then ya gotta train harder more often. Believe it or
>not, there's actually a whole book on this subject.
Yes. There is a book, yours, and after reading what you have just said
I have just ordered a copy.
Weights and High Intensity cardio, not at the same time, sensible
advice indeed, at least it fits my pet theories about the subject.
I am interested to see how you develop that in the book.
Old Man Caballo.
Andy Gale
Old Man Caballo wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 16:46:27 GMT, ne...@clydesoles.com (Clyde) wrote:
>>As for how long/how hard, that's a matter of where you're starting at
>>and where you want to end up. If you wanna slog up that mountain, just
>>do the low-medium intensity like most of the gym bunnies. If you wanna
>>enjoy the climb, then ya gotta train harder more often. Believe it or
>>not, there's actually a whole book on this subject.
>
>
>
> Yes. There is a book, yours, and after reading what you have just said
> I have just ordered a copy.
Which, of course, is why Clyde posted.
Andy
nafod40
> Weights and High Intensity cardio, not at the same time, sensible
> advice indeed, at least it fits my pet theories about the subject.
>
> I am interested to see how you develop that in the book.
Visit the http://www.crossfit.com site. They advocate similar.
anonymous
"Dingus Milktoast" <noneofyou...@nowhere.com> wrote:
So when was the last time you stood on the summit of Gasherbrum II?
You're a hack and Clydes the real deal who add's to the .01% of useful
info on this newsgroup. You and the crap you spew are 99% of the noise
here.
JohnR
> Thor Lancelot Simon wrote:
> > In article <3FE1AC9D...@business.com>,
> > nafod40 <non...@business.com> wrote:
> >
> >>FINALLY, a chance for a rec.climbing.physics thread.
> >>
> >>Work = Force x distance.
> >>
> >>IF the pack never moves a curly red hair's distance up or down, but you
> >>have to push with your leg muscles a force equal to the weight of your
> >>fat #$% plus the weight of the overstuffed pack with the case of Schlitz
> >>you should have left in the car, THEN you will have done the work. The
> >>pack does not have to move.
> >
> >
> > Yeah, but what you're not thinking about is that if the pack never moves
> > "a curly red hair's distance up or down" then you don't have to push with
> > your leg muscles any harder than you would if you weren't wearing the
> > pack.
>
> By that same argument, if you found yourself accidentally on the talus
> slope from hell where you never went anywhere as you tried to hike up,
> it'd be like you had no pack on.
>
Hey, the physics knows no difference between *your* weight and the
weight of your pack. By the same argument again, it would be like you
weighed nothing at all. Then maybe all you would need is to wait for
an updraft.
JohnR
Kevin
I've heard several recommendations of your stuff. i have some
questions though.
Bodyresults.com train to climb rainier video gives several different
options for training and does not discount the stairmaster. Only if
you have knee problems.
Seems that alot of people have different opinions. Ed Viesturs says to
run 7-8 miles per day on hills. Are you gonna argue with one of the
strongest mountaineers in America? Running as i've heard is harder on
the knees than a stairmaster. if the stairmaster doesn't hurt the
knees than whats wrong with it.
it's great you wrote a book. i dont' discount your knowledge but if
your going to chime in on a newsgroup than please make recommendations
and not just discount things that others say just to sell a book.
this is the spirit of the internet.
ne...@clydesoles.com (Clyde) wrote in message news:<1g67ikv.szga56jgfe40N%ne...@clydesoles.com>...
Clyde
> Bodyresults.com train to climb rainier video gives several different
> options for training and does not discount the stairmaster. Only if
> you have knee problems.
I leave it as an option of last resort since that's all some people may
have easy access to. However, I'm a big fan of injury prevention since
rehabing overuse problems really, really sucks. While recovering from a
tibial plateau fracture, I could easily feel the much greater stress of
steppers versus other options. It's also a highly repetitive motion with
almost no variation (at least stairs give you more options); fine for a
10 minute warmup but not something to spend a lot of time on and wearing
a pack compounds the problems. Spinning gives you a better, more varied
workout without the knee strain. Weight training strengthens muscles and
tendons better than any aerobic conditioning.
> Seems that alot of people have different opinions. Ed Viesturs says to
> run 7-8 miles per day on hills. Are you gonna argue with one of the
> strongest mountaineers in America? Running as i've heard is harder on
> the knees than a stairmaster. if the stairmaster doesn't hurt the
> knees than whats wrong with it.
You specifically asked about gym activities. If getting outside is an
option, then trail running, road biking, and power hiking are at the top
of the list for training. Strongly disagree that trail or treadmill
running (with good form/shoes) is harder on the knees than the steppers.
I'm not crazy about road running but use what's convenient; flatlanders
may even run up and down highway overpasses for hill intervals
What a professional climber does has little value for folks with
fulltime jobs and who may not live anywhere near mountains. What I do
for my own training is irrelevant too since we have different histories
and goals. And be skeptical of anyone who says "this works for me so you
should do it too" yet offers no science to back up the claims.
There's a lot of mythology, quackery, and out-dated thinking in the
training world so don't rely on any one source, including me. The more
you understand about physiology, the better you will be able to decide
what is most effective for you.
Kevin
i am going to buy your book. You're right. There is no single answer
to every persons training needs.
Thanks for taking the time to respond in such a detailed manner.
ne...@clydesoles.com (Clyde) wrote in message news:<1g69hft.fhbm0n1mbbsd6N%ne...@clydesoles.com>...
Old Man Caballo
wrote:
I did, interesting site.
Old Man Caballo
nafod40
But then this would be a thread for rec.aviation.soaring, eh?
<thread drift>
One of my other activities is soaring, and flying gliders in ridge lift
in particular. More than once I've had a dream where while climbing, I
just pitch off and catch an updraft, circle over the ridge, and fly
around. Would it be so easy...
</drift>
Martin Carpenter
> And I'll be the back door man
Back door, huh?
Martin Carpenter
> Try pilates, no studies either but at least there are attractive
> women to watch while you train the core.
Sounds great to me!
Do you think they'd mind if I took my rowing machine along to classes?
Michael A. Riches
> But then this would be a thread for rec.aviation.soaring, eh?
>
> <thread drift>
> One of my other activities is soaring, and flying gliders in ridge lift
> in particular. More than once I've had a dream where while climbing, I
> just pitch off and catch an updraft, circle over the ridge, and fly
> around. Would it be so easy...
> </drift>
I don't know how many times I've had this dream...Hundreds, and I don't
fly (only if I absolutely have to, like no roads to the orient and it's
typhoon season...)
Ratzzz...(O.k....back to the scheduled debate...)
Mad Dog
>Mad Dog wrote:
>>And I'll be the back door man
>Back door, huh?
How appropriate, since the lyrics are:
"The men don't know, but the little girls understand."
No, not Michael Jackson (he likes boys). Nope, not the Doors either, nor
Howlin' Wolf (although his is perhaps the baddest version of all). No, this
chestnut was penned by the man that proclaimed: "I AM the blues", none other
than Willie Dixon.
BTW, Martin, what are your best 2,500 and 5,000 meter times on the Concept II?
nafod40
Reminds me of the country song...
"If You Walk Out That Door, I'll Love You From Behind"
Martin Carpenter
> No, not Michael Jackson (he likes boys). Nope, not the Doors
> either, nor Howlin' Wolf (although his is perhaps the baddest
> version of all). No, this chestnut was penned by the man that
> proclaimed: "I AM the blues", none other than Willie Dixon.
I'm afraid that I don't know much about blues music, but my most-frequent
climbing partner is a blues freak, so he can no doubt give me the low
down. He played me some fantastic track just last weekend about some
girl with consumption who was the singer's fantasy. It seemed like
risque stuff for the period to me, but maybe the folks that might have
been offended wouldn't have been listening to That Kind of Music. I wish
that I could remember the name of the song...
> BTW, Martin, what are your best 2,500 and 5,000 meter times on the
> Concept II?
I don't know about 2500m.
I'm under 18 minutes for 5000m. At least, I was when I last used one,
which was, erm, Cardiff Hilton back in April. I'm probably a
bit slower now :-/ and I was slightly surprised that my untrained
off-the-couch technique would get me into the "local athletes" listing
at crossfit.com. I have no idea how this compares to the notional
average climber (or even average rec.climber).
The concept2.com listings look a bit more... realistic. Some beasts out
there are breaking 16 minutes, which my calculator tells me would require
a constant output of 1'36"/500m (ow!). I don't think I'll be beating
that this side of Christmas.
Martin.
Chris Jain
> You specifically asked about gym activities. If getting outside is an
> option, then trail running, road biking, and power hiking are at the top
> of the list for training. Strongly disagree that trail or treadmill
> running (with good form/shoes) is harder on the knees than the steppers.
> I'm not crazy about road running but use what's convenient; flatlanders
> may even run up and down highway overpasses for hill intervals
While I'm not aware of any scientific support for it, but in my
experience in recovering from a knee injury, walking/hiking/running on
rough surfaces (whether on flats or hills) seemed easier on my knees
then flat surfaces (possibly because its less repetitive?). Others
with knee problems have told me this was their experience as well.
Going downhill, I favor a rough trail over a smoother incline (like a
road or smooth trail), although I find a smooth incline to be much
preferable to stairs. When I'm going down a trail and come across
constructed stairs, I go around them on the side, if possible.
Mad Dog
>I'm afraid that I don't know much about blues music
Oh, man, you're never s'posed to admit that.
>I'm under 18 minutes for 5000m.
That's cool. Breaking 18 for 5K is certainly a barrier many can't break.
>The concept2.com listings look a bit more... realistic. Some beasts out
>there are breaking 16 minutes,
I saw a few minutes of one of the comps on the tube years ago when some mutant
did something like a 7:15 for 2500 and the fan support tube was flexing like 6"
each pull. Don't think I ever had a chance of getting down there.
I eventually had to give up on the rower. Too easy to get nauseous while
staring at the girl on the treadmill from the variation in focal length.
nafod40
news:brvem...@drn.newsguy.com...
You're right. I won't need glasses.
Mad Dog
>You're right. I won't need glasses.
Exactly!
Your kind of blindness could never be compensated with optical remedies.
nafod40
Actually my night vision and color perception are fine, thanks for your
concern.
robDotCalm
experience in recovering from a knee injury, walking/hiking/running on
rough surfaces (whether on flats or hills) seemed easier on my knees
then flat surfaces (possibly because its less repetitive?). Others
with knee problems have told me this was their experience as well.
Going downhill, I favor a rough trail over a smoother incline (like a
road or smooth trail), although I find a smooth incline to be much
preferable to stairs. When I'm going down a trail and come across
This corresponds to my experience trying to keep a knee intact and
functioning that was badly injured decades ago. The rougher the surface the
better. One of the most comfortable surfaces that I find to walk on is
gravel. I assume that is because the gravel absorbs much of the energy in a
footfall. I often go to a railroad track near where I live and walk along
the gravel bed beside the track. I feel relief the moment my feet touch the
gravel. The most uncomfortable, and sometimes painful, thing for me is to
walk down a smooth surface, e.g., a paved road. A rough trail is much
better. Snowshoeing on soft snow is just great. I've never had the patience
for a treadmill so I can't comment on that.
No one has mentioned what may be the best exercise to strengthen an injured
knee-full deep squats. For therapeutic purposes, I do medium-weight,
high-repetition squats. I have been dodging the bullet on a total knee
replacements for some years, and I think without the squats it would have
happened long ago. The squats are a non-jarring, low impact exercise for
maintaining thigh bulk and strength without which my knee would be worse
off. The odds are high I'll need a full knee prosthesis at some point. I'm
grateful for each year I get through without one. Actually each day.
As a caveat, I should add that 2 orthopedists have told me that squats are
bad for my knee. Although after my last visit about a year ago the doc said
that since he didn't know why the knee wasn't swollen, wasn't in pain, and
was flexible he wasn't going to tell me what to do. Recently, an orthopedic
physical therapist said I was probably doing the right thing with the
squats. If you have an arthritic joint, you live with it 24/7. Careful
observation on your part on what feels good and what doesn't is a crucial
supplement to the advice proffered by your doctor.
Cheers,
RobKelman.calm
28 December 2003 22:29 MST (-6 UMT)
Bert Daniels
Conditioning is a major part of preparation and the most important piece of
equipment that you take on a climb is your own well conditioned body. Make sure
that your conditioning will allow you to participate fully and equally in all
portions of any climb that you do so that you will not be an extra load for
others around you to carry. The experienced mountaineer sets a pace using a
proportion of personal available power so that the continued exertion
capability is there to achieve the summit, and to descend and get home safely.
Hike, scramble, snowshoe, cross country ski, and climb to your abilities, with
gym workouts when you can't get out, year-around to build and maintain
yourself. Remember, the best training for any activity is build using
increasingly 'higher' output within that activity itself.
ClimbOn
Bert