Just figured it out
Priscilla H Ballou
ribbon-wearing going on around me, and I've just figured out one of the
reasons why.
The destruction of the World Trade Center felt to me like the entry of
the US into the world -- the same world everyone else has been living in
but one from which we've been holding ourselves aloof. We somehow thought
we were immune from destruction from abroad. That only happens in
"other" parts of the world. On Tuesday, we joined the "other" and there
was no more "other." We were all "us" -- countries who have experienced
violence.
All the "Hey, hey, USA!" rallies and flags and lapel ribbons feel to me
like the US is again separating from the rest of the world. We're trying
to get back that "special" feeling. "We're the US! We're the ones who
are different and will not tolerate being besmirched by someone else's
violence." So we're going to wipe them off the face of the earth, because
they dared to bring the US into the world.
I felt somehow more exposed to reality, like a curtain had been lifted,
when we were a part of the wounded world. I'd see pictures of the
wreckage, and it would remind me of shots of, well, Afghanistan for
one. Or bits of London during the Blitz. Or the Balkans.
Now we're starting to recover, and our back's up. I feel that
laminated shield between US reality and world reality falling back into
place. We USans cannot tolerate vulnerability for long. The rest of the
world may have to live in it, but we can't stand it.
I wish we could have of our own volition found a way to become a part of
the larger world, to feel one with victims of violence without having to
become victims ourselves. Now I feel like an opportunity to be more human
has been lost, as we draw away again and wrap ourselves in red, white, and
blue.
This isn't a political analysis. It's an analysis of how I've been
feeling.
Priscilla
--
"If at the end of a war story you feel uplifted, or if you feel
some small bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger
waste, then you have been made the victim of a very old and
terrible lie." -- Tim O'Brien
Marilee J. Layman
Ballou) wrote:
>I've been reacting very negatively to all the flag-waving and
>ribbon-wearing going on around me, and I've just figured out one of the
>reasons why.
What, people flaming you for saying "rabid jingoistic displays" too?
We have to have lots of people get killed before people notice we're a
nation? I've noticed that just about every bead designer's response
has been a flag, an eagle, or both. This doesn't actually address
what happened, it lets them find something to be happy about.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
Avram Grumer
p...@world.std.com (Priscilla H Ballou) wrote:
> I've been reacting very negatively to all the flag-waving and
> ribbon-wearing going on around me, and I've just figured out one of
> the reasons why.
Oddly, I'm _not_ feeling at all negative about it, and I usually do. I
guess this one hit that much closer to home.
--
Avram Grumer | av...@grumer.org | http://www.PigsAndFishes.org
Vs lbh pna ernq guvf, lbh'er va ivbyngvba bs gur Qvtvgny Zvyyraavhz
Pbclevtug Npg.
P Nielsen Hayden
> I've been reacting very negatively to all the flag-waving and
> ribbon-wearing going on around me, and I've just figured out one of the
> reasons why.
>
> The destruction of the World Trade Center felt to me like the entry of
> the US into the world -- the same world everyone else has been living in
> but one from which we've been holding ourselves aloof. We somehow thought
> we were immune from destruction from abroad. That only happens in
> "other" parts of the world. On Tuesday, we joined the "other" and there
> was no more "other." We were all "us" -- countries who have experienced
> violence.
>
> All the "Hey, hey, USA!" rallies and flags and lapel ribbons feel to me
> like the US is again separating from the rest of the world.
What Teresa has been saying for years, not just this week, is: "It's
my flag too."
And it is.
I'm a patriot. I love my decadent, cosmopolitan, self-indulgent,
racially-mixed, godless, intellectually dilletante, drug-abusing,
promiscuous, queer-loving country. And its flag is the Stars and
Stripes.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Weblog: http://www.panix.com/~pnh/electrolite.html
Anthologies: http://www.panix.com/~pnh/anthologies.html
Music: http://www.panix.com/~pnh/trouble.html
Martin Wisse
wrote:
>In article <GJoC9...@world.std.com>,
> p...@world.std.com (Priscilla H Ballou) wrote:
>
>> I've been reacting very negatively to all the flag-waving and
>> ribbon-wearing going on around me, and I've just figured out one of
>> the reasons why.
>
>Oddly, I'm _not_ feeling at all negative about it, and I usually do. I
>guess this one hit that much closer to home.
I feel the same about those displays of patriotism as I did always: a
bit embarassing, like your grandma wanting to talk religion again, a bit
funny, a bit weird and over the top.
But now with tears in my eyes.
Martin Wisse
--
"Jeez, do you have to be *that* lazy? You just broke the fourth wall."
"Well, don't expect me to get it repaired anytime soon."
-Absurd Notions: <http://cerulean.st/absurdnotions/page22.html>
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> I'm a patriot. I love my decadent, cosmopolitan, self-indulgent,
> racially-mixed, godless, intellectually dilletante, drug-abusing,
> promiscuous, queer-loving country. And its flag is the Stars and
> Stripes.
I wish I had a flag for our decadent, cosmopolitan, self-indulgent,
racially-mixed, godless, intellectually dilletante, drug-abusing,
promiscuous, queer-loving world, because I sure would like to fly it
now. :-)
--
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
substitute tin for nit to mail me
http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
"Hello, my name is Anna, and I write trilogies." -- Anna Mazzoldi
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> All the "Hey, hey, USA!" rallies and flags and lapel ribbons feel to me
> like the US is again separating from the rest of the world. We're trying
> to get back that "special" feeling. "We're the US! We're the ones who
> are different and will not tolerate being besmirched by someone else's
> violence." So we're going to wipe them off the face of the earth, because
> they dared to bring the US into the world.
I was reading a weblong yesterday - http://www.gumbopages.com/looka/ -
and nodding at the various wise things it said, when I came to this:
"Let's be careful out there.
My friend Shane is currently travelling
through Europe. My advice to him (as well as the State Department's) --
keep a low profile. Say "aboot", "hoose", "eh?" and "I'm from T'ronno"
a lot. Express a longing for poutineand say how
much you miss it..."
It really hurt me. Americans are in no danger in Europe right now. If
anything, they are likely to receive sympathy, condolences, hugs and
offers of hospitality. It's always been like this in Italy, now more
than ever. In the last few days people have been bringing flowers in
front of the American Embassies and Consulates all over Europe. The USA
has seldom been popular after WWII, but this week it is. And this
flippant word of warning about those braving the Rest of the World... it
hurt me, it really did.
Mary Kay Kare
<av...@grumer.org> wrote:
> In article <GJoC9...@world.std.com>,
> p...@world.std.com (Priscilla H Ballou) wrote:
>
> > I've been reacting very negatively to all the flag-waving and
> > ribbon-wearing going on around me, and I've just figured out one of
> > the reasons why.
>
> Oddly, I'm _not_ feeling at all negative about it, and I usually do. I
> guess this one hit that much closer to home.
>
Almost every house in our development has a flag of some kind showing.
One of the people on the plane that went down in Pennsylvania, Tom
Burnett, lived quite close to us. On street outside where he lived has a
appeared a shrine. American flags, flowers, signs. We don't have a flag
hanging from our house and haven't added anything to the shrine. I've
been thinking a lot about why. I always shrink from that kind of display,
because I wonder just how genuine most of it is. When I was depressed and
exhausted yesterday afternoon, I concluded this meant I thought my
emotions were genuine, but doubted everyone else's. This morning it feels
different. I think I have never displayed a flag (I originally typoed
that as fag--how's that for a picture) because, coming from where I do, I
associate flag display with a certain type of jingoistic non-thinking that
I find appalling and I don't want people to think I susbscribe to that.
That's not a good attitude on my part--it it is, after all, my flag
too--and I should work at changing it. I will, but I'm still not buying a
flag now, even if there were one to be had. Tangent: I heard a report
that someone in Florida was profiteering on the sale of American flags. I
had 2 wildly divergent responses, 1) That's *really* sick, and 2) Is this
a wonderful country or what?
MKK
P Nielsen Hayden
Mary Kay Kare <mar...@kare.ws> wrote:
> In article <avram-E97A3C....@news1.panix.com>, Avram Grumer
> <av...@grumer.org> wrote:
>
>> In article <GJoC9...@world.std.com>,
>> p...@world.std.com (Priscilla H Ballou) wrote:
>>
>> > I've been reacting very negatively to all the flag-waving and
>> > ribbon-wearing going on around me, and I've just figured out one of
>> > the reasons why.
>>
>> Oddly, I'm _not_ feeling at all negative about it, and I usually do. I
>> guess this one hit that much closer to home.
>>
> Almost every house in our development has a flag of some kind showing.
> One of the people on the plane that went down in Pennsylvania, Tom
> Burnett, lived quite close to us. On street outside where he lived has a
> appeared a shrine. American flags, flowers, signs. We don't have a flag
> hanging from our house and haven't added anything to the shrine. I've
> been thinking a lot about why. I always shrink from that kind of display,
> because I wonder just how genuine most of it is.
Yesterday they moved the no-go line south from 14th Street to Canal
Street. So after staying late at work (Tor closed early, but we had
stuff to finish), Teresa and I decided to walk as far south as we
could, and wound up going all the way to Canal Street, from which we
could actually see the destruction and the immense efforts under way.
And everywhere we went there were little clusters of New Yorkers
holding candles and flags in little vigil groups. All looking toward
where the towers used to be. Some softly singing, some softly crying,
some just bearing witness. One large group was gathered around the
entrance to the fire station on Sixth Avenue just south of Houston,
and every time a fire vehicle went in or out, the crowd let out a
round of cheers and applause.
Just up Sixth there was another group. Downtown types. Village and
East Village youngsters, hip New Yorkers with pierced this and that.
They were holding little flags and singing "America the Beautiful."
We had no trouble determining how genuine they were.
Vicki Rosenzweig
>On Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:39:02 GMT,
> Priscilla H Ballou <p...@world.std.com> wrote:
>
>> I've been reacting very negatively to all the flag-waving and
>> ribbon-wearing going on around me, and I've just figured out one of the
>> reasons why.
>>
>> The destruction of the World Trade Center felt to me like the entry of
>> the US into the world -- the same world everyone else has been living in
>> but one from which we've been holding ourselves aloof. We somehow thought
>> we were immune from destruction from abroad. That only happens in
>> "other" parts of the world. On Tuesday, we joined the "other" and there
>> was no more "other." We were all "us" -- countries who have experienced
>> violence.
>>
>> All the "Hey, hey, USA!" rallies and flags and lapel ribbons feel to me
>> like the US is again separating from the rest of the world.
>
>
>What Teresa has been saying for years, not just this week, is: "It's
>my flag too."
>
>And it is.
>
>I'm a patriot. I love my decadent, cosmopolitan, self-indulgent,
>racially-mixed, godless, intellectually dilletante, drug-abusing,
>promiscuous, queer-loving country. And its flag is the Stars and
>Stripes.
Me too.
One thing I suspect has changed, is that the rest of the US now
sees New York as part of America. I no longer live on a small
island off the coast of the United States.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@redbird.org
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.redbird.org/rassef-faq.html
Mary Kay Kare
When I first read this reply I was mildly annoyed and couldn't figure out
why. But I think it's because you're talking about something different
than I am and thereby making them sound the same. I'm seeing flags
hanging from houses that can't usually be bothered to display them on the
4th of July or Flag Day. You're seeing them carried by real people
actually demonstrating their emotions. It's, you know, a little
different.
In my fear, and anger, and pain, I've been very vehement this week and I'm
trying to be more thoughtful now. I haven't yet read the mail you sent me
yesterday because I was too tired to think straight. That's something
that has amazed me about my reactions to all this. I haven't been doing
anything buy watching television and reading online, but I've been so
exhausted I wanted to go to bed at 8pm every night.
MKK
P Nielsen Hayden
Okay. I do know where you're coming from. Just like you, I spent a
big chunk of my childhood in benighted Southwestern suburbia, full of
people for whom flagwaving was an exercise in collectively saying
We're Stupid Together and Yar Boo Sucks To Those Smart People.
Still, watching how people react when they're actually _attacked_ --
indeed, watching how _I_ react -- has been very interesting, and for
the moment at least, I find that when I see the news photos of
flagwaving Americans elsewhere, I'm a little less quick to judge them
as yahoos. Although, surely, some of them are just being yahoos.
> In my fear, and anger, and pain, I've been very vehement this week and I'm
> trying to be more thoughtful now. I haven't yet read the mail you sent me
> yesterday because I was too tired to think straight.
That's entirely okay. I'm interested in your views, and like everyone
else I've had my own moments of being somewhat out of control.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
snip
>Okay. I do know where you're coming from. Just like you, I spent a
>big chunk of my childhood in benighted Southwestern suburbia, full of
>people for whom flagwaving was an exercise in collectively saying
>We're Stupid Together and Yar Boo Sucks To Those Smart People.
Very similar here, except insert Pacific Northwest Loggers into the
mix.
OTOH, as someone who's always been left of center politically, I've
always approached it from a point of view of being patriotic--while I
disagree at times with my country's policies, it's always been from
the perspective as an American who wants her country to be the best
possible America it can be. Never a "love it or leave it" type of
things, but a "my country right or wrong...when right, to applaud it;
when wrong to fix it" sort of thing.
>Still, watching how people react when they're actually _attacked_ --
>indeed, watching how _I_ react -- has been very interesting, and for
>the moment at least, I find that when I see the news photos of
>flagwaving Americans elsewhere, I'm a little less quick to judge them
>as yahoos. Although, surely, some of them are just being yahoos.
Oh yeah, when I see some of 'em around here it's clear who's simply a
redneck yahoo.
But I've been raising the flag myself. This is gawdawful....
>
snip
>That's entirely okay. I'm interested in your views, and like everyone
>else I've had my own moments of being somewhat out of control.
The only other time I have felt this awfully, awfully sick about the
news was the Thurston High School shootings, when I realized who Kip
Kinkel was, and that his father was my high school French teacher, and
that the cafeteria at Thurston was basically unchanged from what it
had been like in the early 70s when I attended school there.... That
was another unimaginable body blow...I kept imagining just how Bill
Kinkel must have sounded....and several of my teachers from that era
were still teaching there, some of my classmates had kids there, and
another classmate said that Kinkel parked the car in front of his
mom's house.....
Except that this is monumentally worse.
I actually cheered when I heard passenger planes flying out of PDX
again.
And I feel sick for all those people who have lost friends and family
in this disaster. One participant in an e-group has a brother who
worked at Cantor Fitzgerald--they think he may have been one of those
who left a cell phone message but no one is sure.....
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
snip
>I'm a patriot. I love my decadent, cosmopolitan, self-indulgent,
>racially-mixed, godless, intellectually dilletante, drug-abusing,
>promiscuous, queer-loving country. And its flag is the Stars and
>Stripes.
One of the participants in X-Files fandom has put up a flag with the
two big mottos from X-Files on it..."I Want to Believe" and "Resist or
Serve."
I'm thinking very hard about that one. I like "Resist or Serve"
better.
And I totally agree with you, Patrick. I saw a perfect editorial
cartoon this morning...two sections, with "Before The Attack"
illustrating some typical divisions within our country; then "After
the Attack"--every person is carrying a flag and tagged "American."
I may not agree with every single one of my fellow Americans, but
damnit, they *are* my fellow countrymen, and this country is my
country, and when need be I'll pull together with 'em.
jrw
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> And I totally agree with you, Patrick. I saw a perfect editorial
> cartoon this morning...two sections, with "Before The Attack"
> illustrating some typical divisions within our country; then "After
> the Attack"--every person is carrying a flag and tagged "American."
What I have to say is a bit delicate, but it's from the bottom of my
being and I guess I have to say it anyway.
Do you honestly believe that what me, and Martin, and the UK people, and
Vlatko, and Johan, are feeling is different, and somewhat lesser, than
what, say, Mary Kay is feeling? Why? Because we live under a different
flag? There were Italians in that building. Dutch. Ghanians for all we
know. There were human beings. If they were just Americans, then aren't
we sort of encouraged not to care? Not to care so much? It wasn't
personal for us - we were never in personal physical danger, and neither
were our relatives and loved ones. But I dare say everybody here has a
friend in NY. I have a couple of very good personal friends in the USA,
none of whom, thankfully, in NY. Should we be a little less friends
because we have a different passport? And remember - the consequences of
all this are probably going to hit us as hard as they are going to hit
you.
Oh yes, we all need to be together in this. But who, really, are "we"?
When you say "We are all Americans" a lot of people here are excluded.
What we have in common is not that - it is something much greater. I
will not let flag-weaving make me forget that something, even were you
to wish me to.
Priscilla H. Ballou
Thank you, Anna. This fits in exactly with the feelings I was trying to
describe in my original post. It felt to me like we were all "we" but
it feels to me as if we're becoming "us" and "them" again. I preferred
the "we." I want the "we."
Lucy Kemnitzer
Reynolds-Ward) wrote:
>On 15 Sep 2001 17:12:29 GMT, P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>
>snip
>
>>Okay. I do know where you're coming from. Just like you, I spent a
>>big chunk of my childhood in benighted Southwestern suburbia, full of
>>people for whom flagwaving was an exercise in collectively saying
>>We're Stupid Together and Yar Boo Sucks To Those Smart People.
>
>Very similar here, except insert Pacific Northwest Loggers into the
>mix.
>
>OTOH, as someone who's always been left of center politically, I've
>always approached it from a point of view of being patriotic--while I
>disagree at times with my country's policies, it's always been from
>the perspective as an American who wants her country to be the best
>possible America it can be. Never a "love it or leave it" type of
>things, but a "my country right or wrong...when right, to applaud it;
>when wrong to fix it" sort of thing.
>
I feel like the thing I'm about to say is a dangerous thing to say at
this time, and I think that's the main reason I have to say it.
I love my people, and I love my land, but I do not love my country. I
have no feeling at all for my _nation_ beyond fear for what it will do
in the world. I do love my people and I do love the land, but I only
love them this much more than all the people and the whole world. The
history of my country, its culture, its problems, its promise, all are
very dear to me. Not the nation.
This next part might save me from the danger of saying the first part:
Right now I'm not really irritated by flag-waving, as I have been in
the past. I'm hoping that the rage and despair I keep reading in this
newsgroup are not behind each of those flags. I drove past a
paramedic fire engine flying a flag and bearing a banner with an image
of the flag and words "in memory of fallen brothers" and I waved to
them. A pickup truck had a flag pinned to the back window of its
camper. Badges of grief and love, this time.
When I hated the flag? The Gulf War. I could hate it again, but not
now.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Kate Schaefer
news:marykay-1509...@c797629-a.plstn1.sfba.home.com...[...]
> > And everywhere we went there were little clusters of New Yorkers
> > holding candles and flags in little vigil groups. All looking toward
> > where the towers used to be. Some softly singing, some softly crying,
> > some just bearing witness. One large group was gathered around the
> > entrance to the fire station on Sixth Avenue just south of Houston,
> > and every time a fire vehicle went in or out, the crowd let out a
> > round of cheers and applause.
> >
> > Just up Sixth there was another group. Downtown types. Village and
> > East Village youngsters, hip New Yorkers with pierced this and that.
> > They were holding little flags and singing "America the Beautiful."
> >
> > We had no trouble determining how genuine they were.
> >
> When I first read this reply I was mildly annoyed and couldn't figure
out
> why. But I think it's because you're talking about something different
> than I am and thereby making them sound the same. I'm seeing flags
> hanging from houses that can't usually be bothered to display them on
the
> 4th of July or Flag Day. You're seeing them carried by real people
> actually demonstrating their emotions. It's, you know, a little
> different.
I've been flying a flag from my porch this week. It's the one I bought
July 3rd -- I'm pretty sure I wrote about it here -- because I want to
stake out my claim, as a liberal atheist feminist queer grandmother, to
equal share in that symbol. It took a minor kludge to the pole to allow
me to fly it at half-mast.
I think the flag means something different to me than it does to some of
my neighbors, but I think the overlap of all our varying meanings is much
greater than the outliers. I won't pledge allegiance to that flag, but
I'll sing its song, and frequently lose my ability to sing that song, even
in normal times, because of the lump in my throat. I believe that some of
my neighbors will get a lump in their throats from other reasons than the
ones behind mine; I believe that some of them are more enamored of their
country because it is their country than because it is dedicated to the
proposition that government of the people, by the people, for the people,
shall not perish from the earth; I know that some of them never show up to
vote; I know that some of them evade jury duty; and some of them are just
not very nice people.
But I think the emotions they're displaying with their flags are as
genuine as the emotions I'm displaying with mine, and as genuine as the
emotions kept private, and there needs to be room in that red, white, and
blue symbol for all those emotions. Some of those emotions, and the
thoughts that go along with those emotions, are ones I abjure. I need to
make my voice heard, as a patriotic American advocating a nuanced
response, so that those voices are not the only ones heard.
Mary Kay, I've gone off on a tangent here, and I apologize. I've gone
through a period of wanting to put a little sign under my flag that says
something like, "I mean this differently from how I think you think I mean
it." I think I'm past that, and ready to think that the other flags I see
may mean something different from what I think they do.
Rob Hansen
>What Teresa has been saying for years, not just this week, is: "It's
>my flag too."
>
>And it is.
>
>I'm a patriot. I love my decadent, cosmopolitan, self-indulgent,
>racially-mixed, godless, intellectually dilletante, drug-abusing,
>promiscuous, queer-loving country. And its flag is the Stars and
>Stripes.
Sadly, over here the flag was lost to the Right in the UK a long time
ago. You just couldn't imagine Labour or the Liberal wrapping
themselves in it.
--
Rob Hansen
=============================================
Home Page: http://www.fiawol.demon.co.uk/rob/
RE-ELECT GORE IN 2004.
Mary Kay Kare
> Okay. I do know where you're coming from. Just like you, I spent a
> big chunk of my childhood in benighted Southwestern suburbia, full of
> people for whom flagwaving was an exercise in collectively saying
> We're Stupid Together and Yar Boo Sucks To Those Smart People.
>
> Still, watching how people react when they're actually _attacked_ --
> indeed, watching how _I_ react -- has been very interesting, and for
> the moment at least, I find that when I see the news photos of
> flagwaving Americans elsewhere, I'm a little less quick to judge them
> as yahoos. Although, surely, some of them are just being yahoos.
>
Yeah and I don't want anyone thinking I'm one of them yahoos. Which is
*ridiculous*. It should be enough that *I* know I'm not. Overcoming the
habits of a lifetiime is arduous. Though I very much enjoyed your
summariation of the dope-smoking, etc. country this flag also represents.
MKK
Mary Kay Kare
>
> But I think the emotions they're displaying with their flags are as
> genuine as the emotions I'm displaying with mine, and as genuine as the
> emotions kept private, and there needs to be room in that red, white, and
> blue symbol for all those emotions. Some of those emotions, and the
> thoughts that go along with those emotions, are ones I abjure. I need to
> make my voice heard, as a patriotic American advocating a nuanced
> response, so that those voices are not the only ones heard.
Well, I said I was depressed and tired when I thought that.
>
> Mary Kay, I've gone off on a tangent here, and I apologize. I've gone
> through a period of wanting to put a little sign under my flag that says
> something like, "I mean this differently from how I think you think I mean
> it." I think I'm past that, and ready to think that the other flags I see
> may mean something different from what I think they do.
LOL! Yes that's it exactly. As I said to Patrick though, it ought to be
enough that *i* know what I mean by it. Trying to be a grownup is a never
ending strugge.
MKK
--
"I love my decadent, cosmopolitan, self-indulgent, racially-mixed, godless, intellectually dilletante, drug-abusing, promiscuous, queer-loving country. And its flag is the Stars and Stripes."
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
snip
>Do you honestly believe that what me, and Martin, and the UK people, and
>Vlatko, and Johan, are feeling is different, and somewhat lesser, than
>what, say, Mary Kay is feeling?
Oh no, not at all.
It's just that there's another factor here...which is that all too
often America is being percieved as a land of division, with umpteen
different ideologies all at war with each other...but when something
like this happens, we pull together in a way which seems to be...um,
unusual somehow elsewhere.
I mean, look at the different perspectives as offered up by Mary Kay
and Lucy and others.
> Why? Because we live under a different
>flag? There were Italians in that building. Dutch. Ghanians for all we
>know. There were human beings. If they were just Americans, then aren't
>we sort of encouraged not to care? Not to care so much? It wasn't
>personal for us - we were never in personal physical danger, and neither
>were our relatives and loved ones. But I dare say everybody here has a
>friend in NY. I have a couple of very good personal friends in the USA,
>none of whom, thankfully, in NY. Should we be a little less friends
>because we have a different passport? And remember - the consequences of
>all this are probably going to hit us as hard as they are going to hit
>you.
I think you've taken what I wrote wrong.
The editorial cartoon in question was meant to comment on an American
characteristic...not belittling those from other nations who lost
people in the crashes, nor belittling the very real sick feeling that
others have felt.
jrw
Ulrika O'Brien
a.plstn1.sfba.home.com>, mar...@kare.ws says...
> Trying to be a grownup is a never ending strugge.
Now that is a button. I might even fix the typo. :) :)
--
"If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten we belong
to each other." -- Mother Teresa
Lis Carey
<1ezsqcq.10vc7891r8l6erN%ada...@nit.it.invalid>:
>Joyce Reynolds-Ward <j...@aracnet.com> wrote:
>
>> And I totally agree with you, Patrick. I saw a perfect editorial
>> cartoon this morning...two sections, with "Before The Attack"
>> illustrating some typical divisions within our country; then
>> "After the Attack"--every person is carrying a flag and tagged
>> "American."
>
>What I have to say is a bit delicate, but it's from the bottom of my
>being and I guess I have to say it anyway.
>
>Do you honestly believe that what me, and Martin, and the UK people,
>and Vlatko, and Johan, are feeling is different, and somewhat
>lesser, than what, say, Mary Kay is feeling? Why? Because we live
>under a different flag? There were Italians in that building. Dutch.
>Ghanians for all we know. There were human beings. If they were just
>Americans, then aren't we sort of encouraged not to care? Not to
>care so much? It wasn't personal for us - we were never in personal
>physical danger, and neither were our relatives and loved ones. But
>I dare say everybody here has a friend in NY. I have a couple of
>very good personal friends in the USA, none of whom, thankfully, in
>NY. Should we be a little less friends because we have a different
>passport? And remember - the consequences of all this are probably
>going to hit us as hard as they are going to hit you.
Yes, it was an attack on the civilized world, and the entire civilized
world needs to pull together on this one, and really feel our common
interests and our common identity.
But it was also, specifically, an attack on the United States of
America. Bin Laden has been very clear about the fact that he has a
particular hatred for the US, and has been floating plans and threats
for spectacular attacks on the US for some years, now.
And you might want to consider the question of how well Americans would
do at making common cause with the rest of the civilized world if we
didn't even temporarily feel the need to set aside our internal
divisions and reassert our common national identity, in the face of the
complete destruction of one American symbol, major damage to another,
and the apparent intent to include at least one other in the
destruction, all of which took place on American soil.
Perhaps you'll forgive me for suspecting that Italy would not react so
very differently, if an analogous event were to occur there.
>Oh yes, we all need to be together in this. But who, really, are
>"we"?
There are several overlapping "wes" involved: the civilized world,
Western culture, the USA, are all things that were attacked on Tuesday.
If the form of the assault on the civilized world and Western culture
had been the destruction of the Eiffel Tower (as I believe a group
possibly associated with bin Laden attempted unsuccessfully a few
years ago), I suspect you'd be seeing an awful lot of French assertion
of national identity, even while they were seeking the support of the
rest of Europe, the rest of Western culture, and the rest of the
civilized world.
>When you say "We are all Americans" a lot of people here are
>excluded. What we have in common is not that - it is something much
>greater. I will not let flag-weaving make me forget that something,
>even were you to wish me to.
I think you need to reread again, more carefully, what Joyce actually
wrote. She mentioned an editorial cartoon which depicted some of the
typical divisions within American society, and then depicted, after the
attack, Americans realizing that these divisions are just not very
important in the face of a real crisis. IOW, it's the amazingly
offensive statement that _Americans_ are all Americans, and
distinctions of regional background and political opinions are just not
as important, in the face of this attack, as they were when the major
issues were what to do with the surplus, and whether or not there was a
surplus to do anything with.
Much the same is true with regard to Western culture and the civilized
world; what seemed to be life-or-death differences a week ago do not
look nearly so important now, in the face of this attack.
But if you mean to say that what happened last Tuesday ought to have no
different emotional impact for Americans than for anyone else, that's
offensive or suspect for Americans to feel a need to pull closer
together as Americans, at the same time that we're pulling closer
together with our fellow Westerners and our fellow Civilized People,
well, I have to say that I think you're just not dealing with how human
beings are actually wired.
--
Lis Carey
Re-elect Gore in '04
Arthur D. Hlavaty
wrote:
We were thinking of flying the US flag and the rainbow flag, but could
not lay our hands on either.
--
Arthur D.Hlavaty hla...@panix.com
Church of the SuperGenius in Wile E. we trust
E-zine available on request
Erik V. Olson
Ulrika O'Brien <uaob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>In article <marykay-1509011626020001@c797629-
>a.plstn1.sfba.home.com>, mar...@kare.ws says...
>
>> Trying to be a grownup is a never ending strugge.
>
>Now that is a button. I might even fix the typo. :) :)
Trying to be a grownup is a never ending strugg..Legos!
--
Erik V. Olson: er...@mo.net : http://walden.mo.net/~eriko/
Kip Williams
> I've been flying a flag from my porch this week. It's the one I bought
> July 3rd -- I'm pretty sure I wrote about it here -- because I want to
> stake out my claim, as a liberal atheist feminist queer grandmother, to
> equal share in that symbol. It took a minor kludge to the pole to allow
> me to fly it at half-mast.
We've been flying our flag. I tried ratcheting it down for a
half-mast, but that put it too close to the ground. We also take it
in at night, unlike the folks who show their love for it the same
way they show their love for their dog -- by chaining it out in the
yard, 24/7. Like we say, it's our country too.
--
--Kip (Williams) ...at http://members.home.net/kipw/
"It's Robots versus Bunnies!" --Tom the Dancing Bug (by Ruben
Bolling)
Priscilla H. Ballou
O'Brien <uaob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> In article <marykay-1509011626020001@c797629-
> a.plstn1.sfba.home.com>, mar...@kare.ws says...
>
> > Trying to be a grownup is a never ending strugge.
>
> Now that is a button. I might even fix the typo. :) :)
I'm not sure it's perfect as is.
Pete McCutchen
wrote:
>Tangent: I heard a report
>that someone in Florida was profiteering on the sale of American flags. I
>had 2 wildly divergent responses, 1) That's *really* sick, and 2) Is this
>a wonderful country or what?
Funny. I just think it's the sound of markets clearing.
--
Pete McCutchen
Matthew B. Tepper
news:git7qtoq4bt60h5ta...@4ax.com:
> We were thinking of flying the US flag and the rainbow flag, but could
> not lay our hands on either.
The US flag has now replaced the Lakers flags as the banner of choice on
minivans here in Los Angeles.
Incidentally, the City of West Hollywood has the rainbow flag as its
symbol. I think some people fly the version with the lambda on it too.
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Phony British opera "star" Charlotte Church: The new white meat?
Marilee J. Layman
>And everywhere we went there were little clusters of New Yorkers
>holding candles and flags in little vigil groups. All looking toward
>where the towers used to be. Some softly singing, some softly crying,
>some just bearing witness. One large group was gathered around the
>entrance to the fire station on Sixth Avenue just south of Houston,
>and every time a fire vehicle went in or out, the crowd let out a
>round of cheers and applause.
>
>Just up Sixth there was another group. Downtown types. Village and
>East Village youngsters, hip New Yorkers with pierced this and that.
>They were holding little flags and singing "America the Beautiful."
>
>We had no trouble determining how genuine they were.
That's good to know. What I'm seeing, particularly on the bead
boards, is people who have become rabid about the flag while at the
same time saying things like the US helps everybody else and nobody
helps us, our borders have never been crossed by other countries, and
there's never been so many people killed at one time in history
(really). They're carrying the flag with the idea that the US is
better than any other country in the world and has received harm that
is more than any other country has ever received. This gives them a
base to hate everybody else, and they're holding the flag as a symbol
of that.
I am a bit worried about one of my neighbors who is flying a flag from
his pickup truck. Matthew is more likely to hit first and find out
later, so I hope he doesn't run into Arabic people for a while.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
Priscilla H. Ballou
> In article <MPG.160d87da5...@news.earthlink.net>, Ulrika
> O'Brien <uaob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <marykay-1509011626020001@c797629-
> > a.plstn1.sfba.home.com>, mar...@kare.ws says...
> >
> > > Trying to be a grownup is a never ending strugge.
> >
> > Now that is a button. I might even fix the typo. :) :)
>
> I'm not sure it's perfect as is.
Oh, bother. Add a "not" in the appropriate place.
Mary Kay Kare
er...@mvp.net wrote:
> On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:51:10 GMT,
> Ulrika O'Brien <uaob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >In article <marykay-1509011626020001@c797629-
> >a.plstn1.sfba.home.com>, mar...@kare.ws says...
> >
> >> Trying to be a grownup is a never ending strugge.
> >
> >Now that is a button. I might even fix the typo. :) :)
>
> Trying to be a grownup is a never ending strugg..Legos!
>
Oh, I like that *much* better.
Katie Schwarz
>On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:17:25 GMT, mar...@kare.ws (Mary Kay Kare)
>wrote:
>
>>*ridiculous*. It should be enough that *I* know I'm not. Overcoming the
>>habits of a lifetiime is arduous. Though I very much enjoyed your
>>summariation of the dope-smoking, etc. country this flag also represents.
>
>We were thinking of flying the US flag and the rainbow flag, but could
>not lay our hands on either.
That idea occurred to me too. But what I really want right now is an
"I [heart] NY" T-shirt.
--
Katie Schwarz
"There's no need to look for a Chimera, or a cat with three legs."
-- Jorge Luis Borges, "Death and the Compass"
LAFF
<hla...@panix.com> wrote:
I have had some similar opinions about "yahoos" myself. Many of them
date back to the sixties and the anti-hippie, anti-antiwar types that
seemed to jump on the Flag to indicate that anyone who was not like them
was not really American (and who then, of course voted for Nixon. Or
worse, Wallace). I still have mixed feelings about the Flag as a
result, but I do have one and do sometimes fly it.
I don't really have a good place to hang my flag from right now, though
-- the hanger-thing for the pole is loose, and the alternate place I
usually hang it from, on the porch awning, is currently being occupied
by a flower basket. Also I figure if you're going to put up a flag you
should do it *right*: put it up in the morning and take it down at
sunset or if it rains, which does not jibe too well with my schedule. (A
lot of people don't seem to bother with these niceties anymore but my
mom -- who voted for Nixon three times -- brought me up right, even
though I started leaning left soon after.) So sometimes I don't bother
with the flag, even on the Fourth of July, and this year was one of
those.
Last spring though, I found some bunting, long strips (20 feet) of
striped cloth (red, white, blue-with-white-stars-white-red) at the
hardware store, and a few days later some largish and slightly garish
plastic bows at K-Mart in a flag-like pattern. I'd meant to put them up
for the Fourth along with or in lieu of the flag but for some reason I
don't remember now I didn't.
I put them up this afternoon. Hanging from the porch railings and poles,
where at Christmas I put lengths of (artificial) pine and (plastic)
candy canes. Looking as if it were the back of a train car that a
President (a *real* President, Lincoln or Truman maybe) is going to
speak from any minute.
--
Lois Fundis lfu...@weir.net
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Cockpit/9377/handy-dandy.html
"I wanted to be a writer-performer like the Pythons. In
fact I wanted to be John Cleese and it took me some time to
realise that the job was, in fact, taken."
-- Douglas Adams (1952-2001)
Mark Atwood
> flag now, even if there were one to be had. Tangent: I heard a report
> that someone in Florida was profiteering on the sale of American flags. I
> had 2 wildly divergent responses, 1) That's *really* sick, and 2) Is this
> a wonderful country or what?
"Profiteering".
There is a flag store in Ballard just down the road from me. They've
been there for years. I doubt they could have stayed there this long,
if they've been selling them at a loss all this time.
I stopped by there today, just in time to watch them sell the last US
flag they had in stock. What will they do with the sick "profiteering"
money? Order more flags from their distributors!
There is a story I recall reading once, about a famine in part of China,
and the Emporor hauls in front of him a merchant, whom the locals have
been complaining have been gouging and profiteering on the grain he's
got stored in his warehouse. A explaination is demanded, at the cost of
his head if it's not a good one.
The merchant explains that
one, he's been renting the warehouse space for years on credit,
storing up grain, knowing that the droughts and good years are
cyclical, and the "gouging" and "profiteering" he's doing now
are how it's paying back all those creditors;
two, if he hadn't had the credit rating and the forsight to do so,
all the people buying from him wouldn't be complaining about being
gouged, they would be *dead* from starvation instead;
three, using his excess expected earnings on his current sales, he
has ordered from a non-dought part of China a large amount of
additional grain, that because it has to be shipped via caravan,
costs quite a bit more anyway, and finally,
four, if the word reaches those caravans that he has been executed,
they will turn back, and then everyone in the region *will* starve.
The Emporor, suitably impressed, granted him a title and a
recommendation, and sent him back to continue his business, which is
obviously good for his neighbors, good for the region, and good for
China.
But I'm sure that the people who knot their panties about
"profiteering in the face of tragedy and hardship" will refuse to buy
into this parable.
--
Mark Atwood | I'm wearing black only until I find something darker.
m...@pobox.com | http://www.pobox.com/~mra
Joel Rosenberg
> But I'm sure that the people who knot their panties about
> "profiteering in the face of tragedy and hardship" will refuse to buy
> into this parable.
>
Me, I don't mind people making money selling flags, or anything else
where the lack of having something will be, at most, a mild
inconvenience, and getting what the market will bear.
The profiteering I was thinking of was the hotel -- I don't remember
which airport that it was at -- that responded to the airlines'
shutdown by immediately doubling its room rates. (I'd appreciate a
URL, if anybody can find one.)
(I'll note without any particular pride that the messages here
offering shelter to stranded rassf folks had no explicit price tags
attached, and I'd be stunned if there were any implicit ones.)
Ulrika O'Brien
mjla...@erols.com says...
> On 15 Sep 2001 15:45:36 GMT, P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>
> >And everywhere we went there were little clusters of New Yorkers
> >holding candles and flags in little vigil groups. All looking toward
> >where the towers used to be. Some softly singing, some softly crying,
> >some just bearing witness. One large group was gathered around the
> >entrance to the fire station on Sixth Avenue just south of Houston,
> >and every time a fire vehicle went in or out, the crowd let out a
> >round of cheers and applause.
> >
> >Just up Sixth there was another group. Downtown types. Village and
> >East Village youngsters, hip New Yorkers with pierced this and that.
> >They were holding little flags and singing "America the Beautiful."
> >
> >We had no trouble determining how genuine they were.
>
> That's good to know. What I'm seeing, particularly on the bead
> boards, is people who have become rabid about the flag while at the
> same time saying things like the US helps everybody else and nobody
> helps us,
Yeah. Well. I assume that's based on the Gordon Sinclair editorial
from 1973 ("The Americans") that has been re-packaged as "The Good
Neighbor" and is being circulated as if it's a recent editorial in
response to the current situation? I've gotten it twice, and each
time I have pointed out that it's a 30 year old piece written about
a totally different world and that the nonsense about "nobody ever
helps us" is just that, nonsense. I also point out that propagating
chain letters -- which it has each time been presented in the form
of -- during a time when the operation of the internet is both
already strained and important as a line of communication is kinda
unhelpful and unpatriotic, and that pretty well shuts it down.
So far, anyhow.
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr
>
>What Teresa has been saying for years, not just this week, is: "It's
>my flag too."
>
>And it is.
>
>racially-mixed, godless, intellectually dilletante, drug-abusing,
>promiscuous, queer-loving country. And its flag is the Stars and
>Stripes.
More fireworks, brass band music, and the biggest honking flag you
ever saw.
(I am in favor of this sentiment.)
-- Alan
===============================================================================
Alan Winston --- WIN...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210
===============================================================================
David Langford
wrote:
> the Gordon Sinclair editorial
>from 1973 ("The Americans") that has been re-packaged as "The Good
>Neighbor" and is being circulated as if it's a recent editorial in
>response to the current situation? I've gotten it twice, and each
>time I have pointed out that it's a 30 year old piece written about
>a totally different world and that the nonsense about "nobody ever
>helps us" is just that, nonsense. I also point out that propagating
>chain letters -- which it has each time been presented in the form
>of -- during a time when the operation of the internet is both
>already strained and important as a line of communication is kinda
>unhelpful and unpatriotic, and that pretty well shuts it down.
I've had a heap of copies and feel pretty much the same. Am also hardening
my heart about e-mailed petitions of general vague support for the USA, of
which I've received several with the identical first 50 names, one or two
more added (different in each case), and an exhortation to forward to
everyone in my address book. Just what those stricken internet hubs need,
right? Or maybe I'm just being a swine.
Still feeling numb, appalled and useless here. No surprises, then. The only
thing to do is plug away at the current nonfiction project, which
unfortunately is supposed to be amusing.
ObSF: remember the city's twin towers under threat from Two-Face in =The
Dark Knight Returns=? But Batman dealt with that.
Dave
--
David Langford
ans...@cix.co.uk | http://www.ansible.co.uk/
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr
ada...@nit.it.invalid (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) writes:
>What I have to say is a bit delicate, but it's from the bottom of my
>being and I guess I have to say it anyway.
>
>Do you honestly believe that what me, and Martin, and the UK people, and
>Vlatko, and Johan, are feeling is different, and somewhat lesser, than
>what, say, Mary Kay is feeling? Why? Because we live under a different
>flag? There were Italians in that building. Dutch. Ghanians for all we
>know. There were human beings. If they were just Americans, then aren't
>we sort of encouraged not to care? Not to care so much? It wasn't
>personal for us - we were never in personal physical danger, and neither
>were our relatives and loved ones. But I dare say everybody here has a
>friend in NY. I have a couple of very good personal friends in the USA,
>none of whom, thankfully, in NY. Should we be a little less friends
>because we have a different passport? And remember - the consequences of
>all this are probably going to hit us as hard as they are going to hit
>you.
>
>Oh yes, we all need to be together in this. But who, really, are "we"?
>
>When you say "We are all Americans" a lot of people here are excluded.
>What we have in common is not that - it is something much greater. I
>will not let flag-weaving make me forget that something, even were you
>to wish me to.
I see your point.
I'm responding obliquely to this.
First, hitting the WTC seems like an excellent way to get many nations mad at
you. Hitting the Pentagon is an attack on the US; the WTC is an attack on,
well, the industrialized world. But it's _also_ an attack on the US, on a New
York landmark, on a lot more Americans than everybody else, so I'm inclined to
cut some slack for the "we are all Americans" attitude, even though the right
point is "we are all in this together."
Second, well, my roommate just showed me a web page of photos of vigils and
memorials and worldwide support, with people holding American flags and
expressing sympathy. It's nice of the Swedes and Finns and Brits and
Norwegians, but what gets me is that they're lighting candles for Americans
- and for Germans who were there, I'm sure, but with American flags on
display - in _Dresden_. In _Tokyo_. I mean, in cities we *bombed*.
We're getting a clear message that we're in this together. It's inspiring;
it makes me ashamed. Where were our vigils after the Tokyo subway attack?
After Chinese earthquakes that kill more people than the WTC thing? After
terrorist bombs go off in London or Milan?
This can't be a one-way deal. If we're part of the world - and one thing
about September 11, it destroys the myth of American exceptionalism; we are
not specially blessed by God, we are not exempt from the difficult stuff -
then we should, in simple fairness, act like it.
If the residents of Dresden - incidentally, I've heard the story of what it
was like to be in Dresden during the bombing from an acquaintance and his
mother who were there then and now live in Oakland; it wasn't fun - can
wave the American flag and light candles for our dead, doesn't simple
fairness dictate a more active engagement with the rest of the world?
P Nielsen Hayden
"Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr" <win...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU> wrote:
> Second, well, my roommate just showed me a web page of photos of vigils and
> memorials and worldwide support, with people holding American flags and
> expressing sympathy. It's nice of the Swedes and Finns and Brits and
> Norwegians, but what gets me is that they're lighting candles for Americans
> - and for Germans who were there, I'm sure, but with American flags on
> display - in _Dresden_. In _Tokyo_. I mean, in cities we *bombed*.
>
> We're getting a clear message that we're in this together. It's inspiring;
> it makes me ashamed. Where were our vigils after the Tokyo subway attack?
> After Chinese earthquakes that kill more people than the WTC thing? After
> terrorist bombs go off in London or Milan?
>
> This can't be a one-way deal. If we're part of the world - and one thing
> about September 11, it destroys the myth of American exceptionalism; we are
> not specially blessed by God, we are not exempt from the difficult stuff -
> then we should, in simple fairness, act like it.
Really, really good point.
`--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Weblog: http://www.panix.com/~pnh/electrolite.html
Anthologies: http://www.panix.com/~pnh/anthologies.html
Music: http://www.panix.com/~pnh/trouble.html
Alison Scott
>Sadly, over here the flag was lost to the Right in the UK a long time
>ago. You just couldn't imagine Labour or the Liberal wrapping
>themselves in it.
Are you suggesting that all the people with Union Flags in the Albert
Hall, and in parks and open spaces all over Britain last night, were
rabid right-wingers? I doubt it. There were a few England flags (no
doubt bought for the footie), plenty of US flags, smatterings of the
flags of pretty well every other country, but mostly UK.
--
Alison Scott ali...@kittywompus.com & www.kittywompus.com
Matthew B. Tepper
news:gft8qts2nf4ckklvs...@4ax.com:
Bears noting as well that the Sinclair-based chain-letter that has been
going around has been edited for content (for one thing, removing a
reference to Americans buying Israel bonds) and the author's attribution
has been removed. I find both of these facts quite annoying.
Kristopher
<snip cute story>
I'm not impressed by parables, Christian or mercantile.
$5.00 or more a gallon, Mark? Double, triple, or
quadruple fuel prices? Can you really defend that?
Kristopher
Vicki Rosenzweig
+0100:
>
>Still feeling numb, appalled and useless here.
Knowing that helps, oddly. Or rather, knowing how many of
my friends care--and I already knew you were thinking of us--is
a comfort.
>No surprises, then. The only
>thing to do is plug away at the current nonfiction project, which
>unfortunately is supposed to be amusing.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@redbird.org
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.redbird.org/rassef-faq.html
Avram Grumer
David Langford <ans...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
> ObSF: remember the city's twin towers under threat from Two-Face in
> =The Dark Knight Returns=? But Batman dealt with that.
Did you see any episodes of _The Lone Gunmen_, the _X-Files_ spinoff
from last year that didn't do so well and was cancelled? I stopped
watching after two or three episodes, but I've read that one of the
later plots, shown a few months back, involved a plot by the US
government to crash a commercial jetliner into the WTC and blame it on
terrorists.
--
Avram Grumer | av...@grumer.org | http://www.PigsAndFishes.org
Vs lbh pna ernq guvf, lbh'er va ivbyngvba bs gur Qvtvgny Zvyyraavhz
Pbclevtug Npg.
Charlie Stross
as <ans...@cix.co.uk> declared:
>Still feeling numb, appalled and useless here. No surprises, then. The only
>thing to do is plug away at the current nonfiction project, which
>unfortunately is supposed to be amusing.
You could actually *work*?
I lost three or four days' productivity to depression and shock. Managed
to write a long rant about how I feel, but that was all I could do: I
was totally blocked, unable to do anything but obsess about the
whole grim business.
I normally have a hard rule about not doing non-fiction work on weekends
(weekends are for relaxation and/or writing SF), but I've had to break
it today to play catch-up with looming deadlines.
-- Charlie
Priscilla H. Ballou
ali...@kittywompus.com wrote:
> Rob Hansen <r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Sadly, over here the flag was lost to the Right in the UK a long time
> >ago. You just couldn't imagine Labour or the Liberal wrapping
> >themselves in it.
>
> Are you suggesting that all the people with Union Flags in the Albert
> Hall, and in parks and open spaces all over Britain last night, were
> rabid right-wingers? I doubt it. There were a few England flags (no
> doubt bought for the footie),
Translation, please?
> plenty of US flags, smatterings of the
> flags of pretty well every other country, but mostly UK.
Priscilla
Alison Hopkins
Priscilla H. Ballou wrote in message ...
>In article <ptd9qtgt4272o7o95...@4ax.com>,
>ali...@kittywompus.com wrote:
>
>> Rob Hansen <r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >Sadly, over here the flag was lost to the Right in the UK a long time
>> >ago. You just couldn't imagine Labour or the Liberal wrapping
>> >themselves in it.
>>
>> Are you suggesting that all the people with Union Flags in the Albert
>> Hall, and in parks and open spaces all over Britain last night, were
>> rabid right-wingers? I doubt it. There were a few England flags (no
>> doubt bought for the footie),
>
>Translation, please?
>
Cross of St George flags, bought for the England v Germany game, which we
won, for once,
Ali
Diane Duane
wrote:
>You could actually *work*?
>
>I lost three or four days' productivity to depression and shock. Managed
>to write a long rant about how I feel, but that was all I could do: I
>was totally blocked, unable to do anything but obsess about the
>whole grim business.
You're not alone. I'm supposed to be finishing a novel right now, and it's going
badly, badly, incredibly badly. It's not working. It's not supposed to feel
like this.
Worse yet: for me at least, when I reread my books later, they're always
"tinged" with the emotional/physical details of where I was at the time. For
example, SPOCK'S WORLD always instantly produces images of Peter using his
birthday-present air pistol to shoot Highland cattle out the window of the
cottage in Scotland where we were staying: DEEP WIZARDRY instantly recalls the
view from just outside the door of the House of Dangerously Single Women (aka
"SMOF Central") in Bala-Cynwyd, where I worked outside on a card table with an
Osborne on it. Picking up WIZARD'S DILEMMA will ever after make me see long
late-afternoon shadows and a red-and-white checked tablecloth and the taste of
"zwei deci Fendant" on a hotel cafe-terrace in Rigi-Kaltbad, where I was
"visited" by the Transcendent Pig and had my bacon saved, so to speak. I am now
facing the unhappy prospect of seeing this book, which I've been working on, on
and off, for twenty years, "tasting" forever after of smoke and a snow of ash
and downfalling scraps of paper.
I run the utility GoBack on my machine. Something goes wrong, you reboot the
machine, hit the spacebar when the GoBack herald comes up, set the machine to
think it was half an hour ago, and start over.
How very much I wish the world had GoBack installed. Wrong platform, I suppose.
(sigh) Back to work.
Best -- Diane
The Owl Springs Partnership / County Wicklow, Ireland
http://www.owlsprings.com
Jo Walton
vze2...@verizon.net "Priscilla H. Ballou" writes:
> In article <ptd9qtgt4272o7o95...@4ax.com>,
> ali...@kittywompus.com wrote:
>
> > Rob Hansen <r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > >Sadly, over here the flag was lost to the Right in the UK a long time
> > >ago. You just couldn't imagine Labour or the Liberal wrapping
> > >themselves in it.
> >
> > Are you suggesting that all the people with Union Flags in the Albert
> > Hall, and in parks and open spaces all over Britain last night, were
> > rabid right-wingers? I doubt it. There were a few England flags (no
> > doubt bought for the footie),
>
> Translation, please?
We play football, what you call soccer, by countries, England, Wales,
and Scotland have their own teams. So the Union Jack, representing
the Union of England, Scotland and Ireland would be inappropriate
to fly, and so the individual flags of the separate countries are
used. The English flag, the Cross of St. George, red on white, isn't
seen much except for this use.
> > plenty of US flags, smatterings of the
> > flags of pretty well every other country, but mostly UK.
Yesterday, up in the hills at isolated farms, I saw a few Union Jacks
and more Draig Gochs, the Welsh Dragon flag, flown at half mast.
I've seen the Union Jack at half mast before, lots of times, Remembrance
Sundays and military funerals and when Diana died. But I cannot remember
ever seeing our Dragon at half mast before. It's not an official flag
-- I mean, it has an oddly ambiguous status, it's flown at the Welsh
Assembly as an official flag, but that's only been the last few years,
it's the flag of a province and a people, not a nation. People who fly
it alone do it out of local Welsh nationalism, often in opposition to
London. It was cool, but also very strange seeing it at half mast like
that, at little farms who have had a terrible year themselves, whose
fields are mostly empty of sheep.
At the place we were going, where we often go, we had scones and jam.
The lady asked, with genuine concern, after the two Americans who had been
with us the last time we'd been there, on the way back from the wedding.
This is a remote place, I wouldn't be surprised if my friends were the
only Americans she'd seen all year. I was very glad to be able to
reassure her that Janet and Ernest were safe in DC and Seattle.
Likewise yesterday morning I went to the post office, where they were
extremely relieved to see me, to my initial surprise. "Oh, Mrs. Walton,
we were worried about you, we're so glad you got back from America all
right." A million years ago, and at the end of last week, I came back
from Philadelphia, and for a moment America became again not the rubble of
Ground Zero but MilPhil, the Reading Terminal Market, some awesome oysters,
the trees in Bertram House, Tom Whitmore hurrying to bring us Emmet's
coat so we wouldn't miss the plane, the safe safe plane I dozed over Patrick
O'Brian on all the way home. The ladies in the tiny local sub-Post Office,
whose most recent contact with America was posting the galleys back to
Tor for me, wanted me to tell you, all of you in the US, how terribly
sympathetic they feel.
--
Jo J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
I kissed a kif at Kefk
*THE KING'S PEACE* out now *THE KING'S NAME* out in November from Tor.
Sample Chapters, Map, Poems, & stuff at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
Martin Easterbrook
"Katie Schwarz" <k...@socrates.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
news:9o1abv$12s7$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
> Arthur D. Hlavaty <hla...@panix.com> wrote:
> >On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:17:25 GMT, mar...@kare.ws (Mary Kay Kare)
> >wrote:
> >
> >>Yeah and I don't want anyone thinking I'm one of them yahoos. Which is
> >>*ridiculous*. It should be enough that *I* know I'm not. Overcoming the
> >>habits of a lifetiime is arduous. Though I very much enjoyed your
> >>summariation of the dope-smoking, etc. country this flag also
represents.
> >
> >We were thinking of flying the US flag and the rainbow flag, but could
> >not lay our hands on either.
>
> That idea occurred to me too. But what I really want right now is an
> "I [heart] NY" T-shirt.
>
I hope someone starts selling these to support the
disaster fund. Many people would like to be wearing
them now.
Martin E
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
wrote:
snip
>Did you see any episodes of _The Lone Gunmen_, the _X-Files_ spinoff
>from last year that didn't do so well and was cancelled? I stopped
>watching after two or three episodes, but I've read that one of the
>later plots, shown a few months back, involved a plot by the US
>government to crash a commercial jetliner into the WTC and blame it on
>terrorists.
It was the pilot of _The Lone Gunmen_, and the plotters were the
Shadow Conspiracy of the gubment...remote control of the airplane
rather than suicide pilots.
I admit, my first thought was of that show..."Oh my God someone DID
it!"
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
snip
>That's good to know. What I'm seeing, particularly on the bead
>boards, is people who have become rabid about the flag while at the
>same time saying things like the US helps everybody else and nobody
>helps us, our borders have never been crossed by other countries, and
>there's never been so many people killed at one time in history
>(really). They're carrying the flag with the idea that the US is
>better than any other country in the world and has received harm that
>is more than any other country has ever received. This gives them a
>base to hate everybody else, and they're holding the flag as a symbol
>of that.
That is absolutely the scariest side of patriotism.
>I am a bit worried about one of my neighbors who is flying a flag from
>his pickup truck. Matthew is more likely to hit first and find out
>later, so I hope he doesn't run into Arabic people for a while.
Eeek. There's a few of that ilk cruising around here. Fortunately,
folks around here are being rather polite about the whole thing and
reaching out to Islamic friends instead of harassing them.
I much prefer the flag I saw on the local electric utility truck the
other day....
for that matter, the idea of the Revolutionary War classic "Don't
Tread On Me" sounds good, too...much better than the tire cover I saw
on someone's jeep left over from the Gulf War (Fuck Iraq) or another
impromptu tape sticker..."Bomb Islam."
Ick.
jrw
Martin Easterbrook
"Jo Walton" <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:100066...@bluejo.demon.co.uk...
[ ... ]
> > >
> > > Are you suggesting that all the people with Union Flags in the Albert
> > > Hall, and in parks and open spaces all over Britain last night, were
> > > rabid right-wingers? I doubt it. There were a few England flags (no
> > > doubt bought for the footie),
> >
> > Translation, please?
>
> We play football, what you call soccer, by countries, England, Wales,
> and Scotland have their own teams. So the Union Jack, representing
> the Union of England, Scotland and Ireland would be inappropriate
> to fly, and so the individual flags of the separate countries are
> used. The English flag, the Cross of St. George, red on white, isn't
> seen much except for this use.
>
>
One associated problem is that the English are left without
a national anthem to play at such events and have to
make do with 'God Save the Queen'.
'Flower of Scotland' and 'Land of my Fathers' are usually worth
another couple of players to their respective sides. Even the Cornish
have 'Telawny' (http://www.kernewek.currantbun.com/trelawny.html).
Suggestions for an English anthem usually come down to
'Jerusalem' or the theme from a cult radio program called 'the Archers'.
Martin E
Philip Chee
>What I have to say is a bit delicate, but it's from the bottom of my
>being and I guess I have to say it anyway.
>Do you honestly believe that what me, and Martin, and the UK people, and
>Vlatko, and Johan, are feeling is different, and somewhat lesser, than
>what, say, Mary Kay is feeling? Why? Because we live under a different
>flag? There were Italians in that building. Dutch. Ghanians for all we
>know. There were human beings. If they were just Americans, then aren't
>we sort of encouraged not to care? Not to care so much? It wasn't
>personal for us - we were never in personal physical danger, and neither
>were our relatives and loved ones. But I dare say everybody here has a
>friend in NY. I have a couple of very good personal friends in the USA,
And some of us actually have relatives in NY. My cousin was
actually thinking of taking the day off (because it was such a nice
day) and go shopping at the WTC. Fortunately for her she didn't.
Thank <insert deity of your choice>!
>none of whom, thankfully, in NY. Should we be a little less friends
>because we have a different passport? And remember - the consequences of
>all this are probably going to hit us as hard as they are going to hit
>you.
>
>Oh yes, we all need to be together in this. But who, really, are "we"?
>
>When you say "We are all Americans" a lot of people here are excluded.
>What we have in common is not that - it is something much greater. I
>will not let flag-weaving make me forget that something, even were you
>to wish me to.
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ţ 20343.64 ţ Nightowls are _real_ people.
Philip Chee
>I was reading a weblong yesterday - http://www.gumbopages.com/looka/ -
>and nodding at the various wise things it said, when I came to this:
>"Let's be careful out there.
>My friend Shane is currently travelling
>through Europe. My advice to him (as well as the State Department's) --
>keep a low profile. Say "aboot", "hoose", "eh?" and "I'm from T'ronno"
>a lot. Express a longing for poutineand say how
>much you miss it..."
>It really hurt me. Americans are in no danger in Europe right now. If
Also just how many of bin Laden's associates can tell the difference
between Canadians and USans or even if they did would they even care?
Duh!
Phil
---=====================================================================---
Philip Chee: Tasek Corporation Berhad, P.O.Box 254, 30908 Ipoh, MALAYSIA
e-mail: phi...@aleytys.pc.my Voice:+60.5.291.1011 Fax:+60.5.291.9932
Guard us from the she-wolf and the wolf, and guard us from the thief,
oh Night, and so be good for us to pass.
--
ž 20333.64 ž Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.
Ulrika O'Brien
says...
> The ladies in the tiny local sub-Post Office,
> whose most recent contact with America was posting the galleys back to
> Tor for me, wanted me to tell you, all of you in the US, how terribly
> sympathetic they feel.
Well, could you tell the ladies how very much we thank them, for me?
I'll be wearing my daffodil next March 1.
Joel Rosenberg
> On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 17:15:02 +0100, cha...@nospam.antipope.org (Charlie Stross)
> wrote:
>
> >You could actually *work*?
> >
> >I lost three or four days' productivity to depression and shock. Managed
> >to write a long rant about how I feel, but that was all I could do: I
> >was totally blocked, unable to do anything but obsess about the
> >whole grim business.
>
> You're not alone. I'm supposed to be finishing a novel right now, and it's going
> badly, badly, incredibly badly. It's not working. It's not supposed to feel
> like this.
Yeah, me, too. Managed to get a thousand words done late last night;
first significant work I've been able to do since Tuesday morning.
Priscilla H. Ballou
> In article <vze23t8n-4C413F...@news.bellatlantic.net>
> vze2...@verizon.net "Priscilla H. Ballou" writes:
> > In article <ptd9qtgt4272o7o95...@4ax.com>,
> > ali...@kittywompus.com wrote:
> > > Rob Hansen <r...@fiawol.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > >Sadly, over here the flag was lost to the Right in the UK a long
> > > >time
> > > >ago. You just couldn't imagine Labour or the Liberal wrapping
> > > >themselves in it.
> > >
> > > Are you suggesting that all the people with Union Flags in the Albert
> > > Hall, and in parks and open spaces all over Britain last night, were
> > > rabid right-wingers? I doubt it. There were a few England flags (no
> > > doubt bought for the footie),
> >
> > Translation, please?
>
> We play football, what you call soccer, by countries, England, Wales,
> and Scotland have their own teams. So the Union Jack, representing
> the Union of England, Scotland and Ireland would be inappropriate
> to fly, and so the individual flags of the separate countries are
> used. The English flag, the Cross of St. George, red on white, isn't
> seen much except for this use.
Ah! So "footie" is football? That was the translation I sought.
>
> > > plenty of US flags, smatterings of the
> > > flags of pretty well every other country, but mostly UK.
>
> Yesterday, up in the hills at isolated farms, I saw a few Union Jacks
> and more Draig Gochs, the Welsh Dragon flag, flown at half mast.
I have one of those! Actually, two. I have Welsh ancestry as well as
Scottish, so when I bought my little house I got a Welsh Dragon and a
Lion (it is a lion, right? having trouble remembering) of Scotland flag
for the little flagpole I put on my front porch. So far, thought, all
I've flown from it have been the rainbow flag and a Christmas banner.
[Wonderful stories that make me want to stow myself away in my mother's
luggage when she flies across the Atlantic this week snipped]
Kip Williams
Put a band-aid on the heart, too.
--
--Kip (Williams) ...at http://members.home.net/kipw/
"It's Robots versus Bunnies!" --Tom the Dancing Bug (by Ruben
Bolling)
Kip Williams
> Likewise yesterday morning I went to the post office, where they were
> extremely relieved to see me, to my initial surprise. "Oh, Mrs. Walton,
> we were worried about you, we're so glad you got back from America all
> right." A million years ago, and at the end of last week, I came back
> from Philadelphia, and for a moment America became again not the rubble of
> Ground Zero but MilPhil, the Reading Terminal Market, some awesome oysters,
> the trees in Bertram House, Tom Whitmore hurrying to bring us Emmet's
> coat so we wouldn't miss the plane, the safe safe plane I dozed over Patrick
> O'Brian on all the way home. The ladies in the tiny local sub-Post Office,
> whose most recent contact with America was posting the galleys back to
> Tor for me, wanted me to tell you, all of you in the US, how terribly
> sympathetic they feel.
Thank them for me, please. On behalf of the ones who really need it.
I'm imagining one of our newspapers reprinting, 'by popular demand,'
a paper from just before the world went nuts for us.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Perhaps you'll forgive me for suspecting that Italy would not react so
> very differently, if an analogous event were to occur there.
I don't know - I can't imagine an analogous event. We've had plenty of
terrorism, but it was never clear from the start that it was somebody
else doing it to our nation. The Itavia plane was probably shot down by
some military plane, but it's impossible, now, to determine who did it,
and anyway, at the moment it seemed like a bomb. When there was that
incident with the cable car, emotions were very high but no flag was
seen - but then, nobody thought it was _deliberate_.
The only thing I can think of was that some years ago, during a rally of
the League in Venice, a woman hanged an Italian flag right in front of
the dais Bossi was speaking from. He invited her to use it to wipe her
ass with. There was a ripple of outrage, but not really that much, and
not enough to stop Bossi becoming a cabinet member.
There have been moments when the nation was well and truly united. When
Moro was killed, when the station in Bologna blew up, when Falcone was
killed. But what people did then was hang white bedsheets from balconies
and bring flowers and notes to his house in Palermo.
But, in general, patriotims isn't neuter for us. It can't be. It can't
be for most of Europe, I suspect. But it certainly can't be for us. You
might see only its nice, positive face - pride in one's country and so
on. We cannot, after mere 54 years, forget that it also has another
face. Of course, when I say "we" I only mean those of us - apparently a
minority in Italy - who still remember fascism and consider it not a
brilliant idea. Back then it was mandatory to fly a flag on some
occasions - my grandmother, who lived on a major street in Udine, had a
flagpole on her balcony and owned a flag - the old one, the one with the
Savoia's emblem on. She had never flown it after the fall of Mussolini,
when it became no longer obligatory to do so.
It's not an accident, that Berlusconi's party has an Italian flag in its
emblem.
Oh - I meant it one way but then it occured to me that the first and
obvious reason to use the flag and the slogan "Forza Italia" also are a
case in point. Berlusconi was banking on the association with soccer, of
course. There is indeed one occasion when you'll see lots and lots of
flags, mostly of ridicolously huge proportions, everywhere - when Italy
wins a soccer match. Now soccer may be a symbolic war, but the message
is still pretty much aggressive. It's good, socially sanctioned,
innocent aggression, but still, I've never felt much like joining in.
It is probably just a question of history. Some things are simply too
deep for reason. Whenever there were people waving Italian flags, for
political reasons, we've always had reasons to be scared. And whenever I
see flags waved, wherever it is, I'm scared.
I've got lots of more rational causes to be scared, of course. (Say,
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2001/09/16/war_worse/index.html) :-(
As for Alan's point - even I felt like hanging a USA flag, only I live
in a sort of dead end, I don't own one, I thought about printing one
out, but even if a miserly A4 flag was worth it, the fact remains that I
just gave my color printer to my mother, and I suspected that true
Americans would feel it somewhat disrepectful to tape a paper flag to a
window pane... and then how to dispose of it? so I gave up, and went in
front of Padua's Town Hall to observe my three minutes of silence
instead. But, you see, touching as it is, the message that Germans and
Danes are giving out is inescapably different.
P.S. This country has really no national symbol that embodies the unity
of the land. Most of us woudln't be able to sing the national anthem if
our life dependend on it (I wouldn't, and I have no intention to change
this). We _could_ on the other hand, try to wave spaghetti carbonara...
--
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
substitute tin for nit to mail me
http://www.fantascienza.net/sfpeople/elethiomel
"Hello, my name is Anna, and I write trilogies." -- Anna Mazzoldi
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> That's good to know. What I'm seeing, particularly on the bead
> boards, is people who have become rabid about the flag while at the
> same time saying things like the US helps everybody else and nobody
> helps us, our borders have never been crossed by other countries, and
> there's never been so many people killed at one time in history
> (really). They're carrying the flag with the idea that the US is
> better than any other country in the world and has received harm that
> is more than any other country has ever received. This gives them a
> base to hate everybody else, and they're holding the flag as a symbol
> of that.
That's a general problem of symbols. They can be easily used to stop
people thinking. Sometimes by the people themselves. :-(
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
> as <ans...@cix.co.uk> declared:
>
> >Still feeling numb, appalled and useless here. No surprises, then. The only
> >thing to do is plug away at the current nonfiction project, which
> >unfortunately is supposed to be amusing.
>
> You could actually *work*?
>
> I lost three or four days' productivity to depression and shock. Managed
> to write a long rant about how I feel, but that was all I could do: I
> was totally blocked, unable to do anything but obsess about the
> whole grim business.
Same here. The last two days I've been feeling a lot better, mostly
because I was able to sleep, but I've still lost a solid week of work. I
compulsively read the newsgroup and the news, go shopping (my patriotic
duty, after all), and read the papers. Today I went to see my parents,
mostly because I felt like being with them for a while. I came back and
I meant to work, and instead, here I am. When I'm driving, and in no
other occasion for some weird reason, I cry.
Omega
writes
>Martin Easterbrook wrote:
>>
>> "Katie Schwarz" <k...@socrates.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
>> news:9o1abv$12s7$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
>> > Arthur D. Hlavaty <hla...@panix.com> wrote:
>> > >On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:17:25 GMT, mar...@kare.ws (Mary Kay Kare)
>> > >wrote:
>> > >
>> > >>Yeah and I don't want anyone thinking I'm one of them yahoos. Which is
>> > >>*ridiculous*. It should be enough that *I* know I'm not. Overcoming the
>> > >>habits of a lifetiime is arduous. Though I very much enjoyed your
>> > >>summariation of the dope-smoking, etc. country this flag also
>> represents.
>> > >
>> > >We were thinking of flying the US flag and the rainbow flag, but could
>> > >not lay our hands on either.
>> >
>> > That idea occurred to me too. But what I really want right now is an
>> > "I [heart] NY" T-shirt.
>> >
>> This time I have to post a "me too" message.
>>
>> I hope someone starts selling these to support the
>> disaster fund. Many people would like to be wearing
>> them now.
>
>Put a band-aid on the heart, too.
>
it can 'be seen to be doing good'. I don't mean that in a bad way even
if it does sound off, I just can't think right now how else to say it.
It's just the way some people cope with things.
--
Omega
WereGopher From The Black Lagoon
(coming soon... honest... only eight years late)
Marilee J. Layman
<uaob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>In article <7s58qtg4fddm8nokr...@4ax.com>,
>mjla...@erols.com says...
>> On 15 Sep 2001 15:45:36 GMT, P Nielsen Hayden <p...@panix.com> wrote:
>>
>> >And everywhere we went there were little clusters of New Yorkers
>> >holding candles and flags in little vigil groups. All looking toward
>> >where the towers used to be. Some softly singing, some softly crying,
>> >some just bearing witness. One large group was gathered around the
>> >entrance to the fire station on Sixth Avenue just south of Houston,
>> >and every time a fire vehicle went in or out, the crowd let out a
>> >round of cheers and applause.
>> >
>> >Just up Sixth there was another group. Downtown types. Village and
>> >East Village youngsters, hip New Yorkers with pierced this and that.
>> >They were holding little flags and singing "America the Beautiful."
>> >
>> >We had no trouble determining how genuine they were.
>>
>> That's good to know. What I'm seeing, particularly on the bead
>> boards, is people who have become rabid about the flag while at the
>> same time saying things like the US helps everybody else and nobody
>> helps us,
>
>Yeah. Well. I assume that's based on the Gordon Sinclair editorial
>from 1973 ("The Americans") that has been re-packaged as "The Good
>Neighbor" and is being circulated as if it's a recent editorial in
>response to the current situation? I've gotten it twice, and each
>time I have pointed out that it's a 30 year old piece written about
>a totally different world and that the nonsense about "nobody ever
>helps us" is just that, nonsense. I also point out that propagating
>chain letters -- which it has each time been presented in the form
>of -- during a time when the operation of the internet is both
>already strained and important as a line of communication is kinda
>unhelpful and unpatriotic, and that pretty well shuts it down.
>
>So far, anyhow.
Yes, I pointed that out, too, and have received email from the host of
About:Beadwork telling me that if I keep posting things like that,
she'll bar me from the forum.
--
Marilee J. Layman
Bali Sterling Beads at Wholesale
http://www.basicbali.com
Marilee J. Layman
Reynolds-Ward) wrote:
>for that matter, the idea of the Revolutionary War classic "Don't
>Tread On Me" sounds good, too...much better than the tire cover I saw
>on someone's jeep left over from the Gulf War (Fuck Iraq) or another
>impromptu tape sticker..."Bomb Islam."
Have you seen Annie Scarborough's pattern for Don't Tread on Me? Go
to http://www.Bead-Patterns.com/cgi-bin/shop/shop.cgi and pick
Elizabeth Ann Scarborough in the Designers dropdown. She has several
free patterns about Tuesday, including one that has symbols of many
religions worked together in red, white, and blue.
Ulrika O'Brien
mjla...@erols.com says...
*sigh. God bless the small-minded patriots.1 God bless them on
their pointy, inactive little heads. Hard.
1. Note that I am not claiming that all patriots are small-minded.
Vicki Rosenzweig
That's the post office right near your house, right? Where I went with
you to buy the electricity? Thank them, for me, for us.
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr
>In article <gft8qts2nf4ckklvs...@4ax.com>,
> David Langford <ans...@cix.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> ObSF: remember the city's twin towers under threat from Two-Face in
>> =The Dark Knight Returns=? But Batman dealt with that.
>
>from last year that didn't do so well and was cancelled? I stopped
>watching after two or three episodes, but I've read that one of the
>later plots, shown a few months back, involved a plot by the US
>government to crash a commercial jetliner into the WTC and blame it on
>terrorists.
That was actually in the first episode aired, which was the only one I managed
to watch.
-- Alan
===============================================================================
Alan Winston --- WIN...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210
===============================================================================
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr
OK. My gallows-humor generator had already developed an I (heart) NY shirt
with a big bite taken out of the lower part of the NY, but I wasn't going to
mention it until now.
Mary Kay Kare
<uaob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> In article <100066...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>, J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
> says...
> > The ladies in the tiny local sub-Post Office,
> > whose most recent contact with America was posting the galleys back to
> > Tor for me, wanted me to tell you, all of you in the US, how terribly
> > sympathetic they feel.
>
> Well, could you tell the ladies how very much we thank them, for me?
> I'll be wearing my daffodil next March 1.
>
Yes. The kindness of strangers has left me speechless. Those pictures
someone posted a URL for were amazing.
MKK
--
"I love my decadent, cosmopolitan, self-indulgent, racially-mixed, godless,
intellectually dilletante, drug-abusing, promiscuous, queer-loving country.
And its flag is the Stars and Stripes."
Patrick Nielsen Hayden
Ulrika O'Brien
gra...@dsl.ca says...
> On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:20:50 +0100,
> Martin Easterbrook <uad...@dircon.co.uk> scripsit:
> >'Flower of Scotland' and 'Land of my Fathers' are usually worth
> >another couple of players to their respective sides. Even the Cornish
> >have 'Telawny' (http://www.kernewek.currantbun.com/trelawny.html).
> >
> >Suggestions for an English anthem usually come down to
> >'Jerusalem' or the theme from a cult radio program called 'the Archers'.
>
> written by Roy Williamson in something like 1971.
I nominate Mike Oldfield.
Mary Kay Kare
ada...@nit.it.invalid (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
> Same here. The last two days I've been feeling a lot better, mostly
> because I was able to sleep, but I've still lost a solid week of work. I
> compulsively read the newsgroup and the news, go shopping (my patriotic
> duty, after all), and read the papers. Today I went to see my parents,
> mostly because I felt like being with them for a while. I came back and
> I meant to work, and instead, here I am. When I'm driving, and in no
> other occasion for some weird reason, I cry.
>
We drove into San Francisco to a reading hosted by Borderlands Books
celebrating Tachyon Press' 10th anniversary. Peter Beagle, Michael
Swanick and Pat Murphy read from Tachyon's latest publication. And there
was a wonderful trivia contest that had us all talking to each other and
pawing through books on shelves. Others present included Eileen Gunn,
John Berry, MIke Ward, Ellen Klages, and an editor from the South BAy
whose name I didn't catch. It was such a lovely normal afternoon.
Cally Soukup
> The ladies in the tiny local sub-Post Office,
> whose most recent contact with America was posting the galleys back to
> Tor for me, wanted me to tell you, all of you in the US, how terribly
> sympathetic they feel.
Do thank them on our behalf, and tell them it really helps that they
feel so. More than I can say.
--
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend
to the death your right to say it." -- Beatrice Hall
Cally Soukup sou...@pobox.com
Mark Evans
: Me, I don't mind people making money selling flags, or anything else
: where the lack of having something will be, at most, a mild
: inconvenience, and getting what the market will bear.
: The profiteering I was thinking of was the hotel -- I don't remember
: which airport that it was at -- that responded to the airlines'
: shutdown by immediately doubling its room rates. (I'd appreciate a
: URL, if anybody can find one.)
: (I'll note without any particular pride that the messages here
: offering shelter to stranded rassf folks had no explicit price tags
: attached, and I'd be stunned if there were any implicit ones.)
Here in central Ohio we had clear price gouging at the gas pump. Some
stations got as high as $6.00/gal by Tuesday evening. they dropped back
down rapidly, though and at least one was selling gas at less than a buck
a gallon and oofering cash back if you brought in a reciept with the high
price on it.
Mark Evans
--
Mark Evans
Established in 1951.
Lis Carey
<100066...@bluejo.demon.co.uk>:
<snip>
>Likewise yesterday morning I went to the post office, where they
>were extremely relieved to see me, to my initial surprise. "Oh, Mrs.
>Walton, we were worried about you, we're so glad you got back from
>America all right." A million years ago, and at the end of last
>week, I came back from Philadelphia, and for a moment America became
>again not the rubble of Ground Zero but MilPhil, the Reading
>Terminal Market, some awesome oysters, the trees in Bertram House,
>Tom Whitmore hurrying to bring us Emmet's coat so we wouldn't miss
>the plane, the safe safe plane I dozed over Patrick O'Brian on all
>the way home. The ladies in the tiny local sub-Post Office, whose
>most recent contact with America was posting the galleys back to Tor
>for me, wanted me to tell you, all of you in the US, how terribly
>sympathetic they feel.
Please thank them for us, and tell them how much we appreciate it.
--
Lis Carey
Re-elect Gore in '04
Michael Paine
"Ulrika O'Brien" <uaob...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.160ef3ea...@news.earthlink.net...
> In article <slrn9qaje1....@localhost.localdomain>,
> gra...@dsl.ca says...
> > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:20:50 +0100,
> > Martin Easterbrook <uad...@dircon.co.uk> scripsit:
> > >'Flower of Scotland' and 'Land of my Fathers' are usually worth
> > >another couple of players to their respective sides. Even the Cornish
> > >have 'Telawny' (http://www.kernewek.currantbun.com/trelawny.html).
> > >
> > >Suggestions for an English anthem usually come down to
> > >'Jerusalem' or the theme from a cult radio program called 'the
Archers'.
> >
> > Well, gracious, get someone to *write* one. "Flower of Scotland" was
> > written by Roy Williamson in something like 1971.
>
> I nominate Mike Oldfield.
Not after the Blue Peter theme.
Lis Carey
<1ezuef8.7itkgkodzabkN%ada...@nit.it.invalid>:
<snip history of why flying the national flag is somewhat problematic
in Italy>
>As for Alan's point - even I felt like hanging a USA flag, only I
>live in a sort of dead end, I don't own one, I thought about
>printing one out, but even if a miserly A4 flag was worth it, the
>fact remains that I just gave my color printer to my mother, and I
>suspected that true Americans would feel it somewhat disrepectful to
>tape a paper flag to a window pane...
Actually, that's what some Americans are doing. I've seen flags taped
in windows that were clearly cut out of newspapers. The rush on flags
at a time of year that's not normally the flag-buying and flag-flying
season has meant that not everyone who wants to has been able to buy
one.
>and then how to dispose of it?
The correct method, once it starts to get tattered, is to burn it, and
bury the ashes.
I can see that this would not necessarily be convenient.:)
>so I gave up, and went in front of Padua's Town Hall to observe my
>three minutes of silence instead. But, you see, touching as it is,
>the message that Germans and Danes are giving out is inescapably
>different.
>
>P.S. This country has really no national symbol that embodies the
>unity of the land. Most of us woudln't be able to sing the national
>anthem if our life dependend on it (I wouldn't, and I have no
>intention to change this). We _could_ on the other hand, try to wave
>spaghetti carbonara...
Waving spaghetti carbonara is right out. The correct observance would
be to eat it, very respectfully, with a good Italian wine.
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<uad...@dircon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Katie Schwarz" <k...@socrates.Berkeley.EDU> wrote in message
>news:9o1abv$12s7$1...@agate.berkeley.edu...
snip
>> That idea occurred to me too. But what I really want right now is an
>> "I [heart] NY" T-shirt.
>This time I have to post a "me too" message.
>I hope someone starts selling these to support the
>disaster fund. Many people would like to be wearing
>them now.
I like it.
Yesterday I saw a handmade sign reading "Ich bin ein New Yorker...."
jrw
Joyce Reynolds-Ward
<mjla...@erols.com> wrote:
snip
>Have you seen Annie Scarborough's pattern for Don't Tread on Me? Go
>to http://www.Bead-Patterns.com/cgi-bin/shop/shop.cgi and pick
>Elizabeth Ann Scarborough in the Designers dropdown. She has several
>free patterns about Tuesday, including one that has symbols of many
>religions worked together in red, white, and blue.
Thanks, Marilee!
jrw
Mary Kay Kare
<mike...@extinction.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
Does Peter have the same slang connotations there it does here, i.e. male
genitalia? If so, that's not a pretty picture...
Mary Kay Kare
lisc...@mediaone.net (Lis Carey) wrote:
> ada...@nit.it.invalid (Anna Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote in
> <1ezuef8.7itkgkodzabkN%ada...@nit.it.invalid>:
>
> <snip history of why flying the national flag is somewhat problematic
> in Italy>
>
> >As for Alan's point - even I felt like hanging a USA flag, only I
> >live in a sort of dead end, I don't own one, I thought about
> >printing one out, but even if a miserly A4 flag was worth it, the
> >fact remains that I just gave my color printer to my mother, and I
> >suspected that true Americans would feel it somewhat disrepectful to
> >tape a paper flag to a window pane...
>
> Actually, that's what some Americans are doing. I've seen flags taped
> in windows that were clearly cut out of newspapers. The rush on flags
> at a time of year that's not normally the flag-buying and flag-flying
> season has meant that not everyone who wants to has been able to buy
> one.
>
I've also seen some there were pretty obviously printed out on color
printers. I'm thinking about doing that myself.
Ray Radlein
>
> Yesterday I saw a handmade sign reading "Ich bin ein New Yorker...."
Ironically, in German, this *actually* means "I am a thin-crust pizza."
- Ray R.
--
*********************************************************************
"Well, before my sword can pass all the way through your neck, it has
to pass *half way* through your neck. But before it can do *that*, it
has to first pass *one-fourth* of the way through your neck. And
before it can do *that*...." - Zeno, Warrior Princess
Ray Radlein - r...@learnlink.emory.edu
homepage coming soon! wooo, wooo.
*********************************************************************
Marilee J. Layman
Someone on one of the bead boards said seeing a French woman saying "I
am a New Yorker" made her tear up. Turns out she had no idea JFK
started it, and she's only 7 years younger than I am.
Marilee J. Layman
Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
>Charlie Stross <cha...@nospam.antipope.org> wrote:
>
>> Stoned koala bears drooled eucalyptus spittle in awe
>> as <ans...@cix.co.uk> declared:
>>
>> >Still feeling numb, appalled and useless here. No surprises, then. The only
>> >thing to do is plug away at the current nonfiction project, which
>> >unfortunately is supposed to be amusing.
>>
>> You could actually *work*?
>>
>> I lost three or four days' productivity to depression and shock. Managed
>> to write a long rant about how I feel, but that was all I could do: I
>> was totally blocked, unable to do anything but obsess about the
>> whole grim business.
>
>Same here. The last two days I've been feeling a lot better, mostly
>because I was able to sleep, but I've still lost a solid week of work. I
>compulsively read the newsgroup and the news, go shopping (my patriotic
>duty, after all), and read the papers. Today I went to see my parents,
>mostly because I felt like being with them for a while. I came back and
>I meant to work, and instead, here I am. When I'm driving, and in no
>other occasion for some weird reason, I cry.
>
I just ordered fall & winter clothes from MIB, including the
purple/green spiral top. Doing my part for the economy.
Marilee J. Layman
<uaob...@earthlink.net> wrote:
I would *personally* be quite happy to leave all the About boards, but
posting there on general jewelry/beadwork stuff brings me business, so
I consider it marketing.
Marilee J. Layman
Feruglio Dal Dan) wrote:
> I suspected that true
>Americans would feel it somewhat disrepectful to tape a paper flag to a
>window pane... and then how to dispose of it?
Nah, KMart printed a full-page flag in the WashPost today. It
specifically says to tape it to the window (and it also says This Side
Up so apparently they think a lot of people don't recognize the right
side to go up). You can dispose of it the proper way for all US flags
-- burn it.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> I've also seen some there were pretty obviously printed out on color
> printers. I'm thinking about doing that myself.
Yeah, but I don't have a color printer any more. :-(
Does anybody has a nice url for a "I (heart) NY" composition, though?
with band-aid on? I can print that out in b&w. If I had my old printer I
could iron it on a T-Shirt, but, oh well.
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Joyce Reynolds-Ward wrote:
> >
> > Yesterday I saw a handmade sign reading "Ich bin ein New Yorker...."
>
> Ironically, in German, this *actually* means "I am a thin-crust pizza."
Sometimes I fell just like that. Not a bad feeling, after all. There are
worse things in the world than thin-crust pizza. Certainly beats "I am
an Hamburger..." :-))
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Yes, I pointed that out, too, and have received email from the host of
> About:Beadwork telling me that if I keep posting things like that,
> she'll bar me from the forum.
Oh, Great Maker. :-( (Why do I keep hearing Londo in my head right now?
Is it a bad sign?).
Iain J Coleman
Graydon Saunders wrote:
>
> On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:20:50 +0100,
> Martin Easterbrook <uad...@dircon.co.uk> scripsit:
> >'Flower of Scotland' and 'Land of my Fathers' are usually worth
> >another couple of players to their respective sides. Even the Cornish
> >have 'Telawny' (http://www.kernewek.currantbun.com/trelawny.html).
> >
> >Suggestions for an English anthem usually come down to
> >'Jerusalem' or the theme from a cult radio program called 'the Archers'.
>
> Well, gracious, get someone to *write* one. "Flower of Scotland" was
> written by Roy Williamson in something like 1971.
>
It wasn't written as a national anthem, though. It has been unofficially
adopted as one by the people as a whole, mainly because it's a far
better song than "Scotland the Brave".
I think there's a lot of virtue in an anthem selected in that way,
rather than specialy commissioned for the purpose. It seems that
"Jerusalem" is becoming the English equivalent. Textually, you could
argue that it's not terribly appropriate as a national anthem -- but you
could say exactly the same about "Flower of Scotland".
Iain
Jo Walton
uaob...@earthlink.net "Ulrika O'Brien" writes:
> In article <slrn9qaje1....@localhost.localdomain>,
> gra...@dsl.ca says...
> > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:20:50 +0100,
> > Martin Easterbrook <uad...@dircon.co.uk> scripsit:
> > >'Flower of Scotland' and 'Land of my Fathers' are usually worth
> > >another couple of players to their respective sides. Even the Cornish
> > >have 'Telawny' (http://www.kernewek.currantbun.com/trelawny.html).
> > >
> > >Suggestions for an English anthem usually come down to
> > >'Jerusalem' or the theme from a cult radio program called 'the Archers'.
> >
> > Well, gracious, get someone to *write* one. "Flower of Scotland" was
> > written by Roy Williamson in something like 1971.
>
> I nominate Mike Oldfield.
Ian Anderson.
When I was writing my poem "Britannia" and feeling like it was a very
peculiar place to be going politically, I remember realising that Ian
Anderson would get it and feeling very cheered by that. (It turned out
that lots of people have got it, almost as hate it.)
--
Jo J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
I kissed a kif at Kefk
*THE KING'S PEACE* out now *THE KING'S NAME* out in November from Tor.
Sample Chapters, Map, Poems, & stuff at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
Jo Walton
v...@redbird.org "Vicki Rosenzweig" writes:
> Quoth J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) on Sun, 16 Sep 2001 17:56:26 GMT:
>
> The ladies in the tiny local sub-Post Office,
> >whose most recent contact with America was posting the galleys back to
> >Tor for me, wanted me to tell you, all of you in the US, how terribly
> >sympathetic they feel.
>
> That's the post office right near your house, right? Where I went with
> you to buy the electricity? Thank them, for me, for us.
That's the one. I will definitely thank them from everyone who has
posted.
John Richards
>
> In article <MPG.160ef3ea...@news.earthlink.net>
> uaob...@earthlink.net "Ulrika O'Brien" writes:
>
> > In article <slrn9qaje1....@localhost.localdomain>,
> > gra...@dsl.ca says...
> > > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:20:50 +0100,
> > > Martin Easterbrook <uad...@dircon.co.uk> scripsit:
> > > >'Flower of Scotland' and 'Land of my Fathers' are usually worth
> > > >another couple of players to their respective sides. Even the Cornish
> > > >have 'Telawny' (http://www.kernewek.currantbun.com/trelawny.html).
> > > >
> > > >Suggestions for an English anthem usually come down to
> > > >'Jerusalem' or the theme from a cult radio program called 'the Archers'.
> > >
> > > Well, gracious, get someone to *write* one. "Flower of Scotland" was
> > > written by Roy Williamson in something like 1971.
> >
> > I nominate Mike Oldfield.
>
> Ian Anderson.
>
Justin Sullivan
> --
> Jo J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
> I kissed a kif at Kefk
> *THE KING'S PEACE* out now *THE KING'S NAME* out in November from Tor.
> Sample Chapters, Map, Poems, & stuff at http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk
--
JFW Richards South Hants Science Fiction Group
Portsmouth, Hants 2nd and 4th Tuesdays
England. UK. The Magpie, Fratton Road, Portsmouth
Charlie Stross
>Worse yet: for me at least, when I reread my books later, they're always
>"tinged" with the emotional/physical details of where I was at the time.
> .................... I am now
>facing the unhappy prospect of seeing this book, which I've been working on, on
>and off, for twenty years, "tasting" forever after of smoke and a snow of ash
>and downfalling scraps of paper.
Suggestion: stop work on it Right Now. Sit down. Write a horror story or
novelette, or whatever it takes to get the poison out of your system. Then
take a week off before you go back to the book. Hopefully the poison
will stick to a horror story, which will be the better for it, and not
contaminate your major work.
(Luckily for me, I'm working on a series of stories and the next one on
my list needs to carry a very dark undertone of horror. Otherwise ...)
-- Charlie
Charlie Stross
>> You're not alone. I'm supposed to be finishing a novel right now, and it's going
>> badly, badly, incredibly badly. It's not working. It's not supposed to feel
>> like this.
>
>Yeah, me, too. Managed to get a thousand words done late last night;
>first significant work I've been able to do since Tuesday morning.
I'm now even further pissed-off, albeit for more trivial second-order
consequences of the disaster.
Among other things, there's a magazine I write a monthly column for,
and usually a feature article as well. This month was a red-letter
month; not one but two features to write, one of them extra-long. (We're
talking fifteen thousand words of deathless non-fiction prose here.) The
deadline was today, and the events of last week totalled my work schedule;
I ended up hacking on things over the weekend.
Lo, I emailed the first feature copy in to my editor, only to get back
a reply, cc'd to all the other contributors. It began, "I should also
apologise for giving you incorrect advance deadlines last month. Acme
Magazine #165 was a five-week issue and I didn't adjust the dates to
reflect this. Sorry."
Guess it's not just writers who were walking around in a daze last week.
Harrumph.
-- Charlie
Anna Feruglio Dal Dan
> Graydon Saunders wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:20:50 +0100,
> > Martin Easterbrook <uad...@dircon.co.uk> scripsit:
> > >'Flower of Scotland' and 'Land of my Fathers' are usually worth
> > >another couple of players to their respective sides. Even the Cornish
> > >have 'Telawny' (http://www.kernewek.currantbun.com/trelawny.html).
> > >
> > >Suggestions for an English anthem usually come down to
> > >'Jerusalem' or the theme from a cult radio program called 'the Archers'.
> >
> > Well, gracious, get someone to *write* one. "Flower of Scotland" was
> > written by Roy Williamson in something like 1971.
> >
>
> It wasn't written as a national anthem, though. It has been unofficially
> adopted as one by the people as a whole, mainly because it's a far
> better song than "Scotland the Brave".
When the Australian had to select their anthem, there was a large
portion of people who pushed ot elect "Waltzing Mathilda". They lost
(there was a referendum), but I have had a soft spot for Australia
(about 30% of it, anyway) ever since learning this.