Inmates Escape and Kill in the Americas
Charles Trew
Two convicted murderers have successfully escaped from prison in
Texas. The two were joined by 5 other inmates serving time for violent
crimes. The escape took place several days ago and the police have run out
of leads.
And in Brazil, the country's most famous serial killer, Francisco
"Park Maniac" Pereira was killed with a gun by another inmate. Four other
inmates were also killed during a riot at the country's maximum security
prison, Taubate. Officials are currently preparing to storm the prison.
Desmond Coughlan
> Two convicted murderers have successfully escaped from prison in
> Texas. The two were joined by 5 other inmates serving time for violent
> crimes. The escape took place several days ago and the police have run out
> of leads.
Were the two sentenced to die ? If so, may God guide them to the Mexican
border.
[snip]
--
**********************************************************************
* Desmond Coughlan Network Engineer Forum des Images Paris *
* dcou...@vdp.fr http://www.forumdesimages.net/ (01) 44.76.62.29 *
* PGP Public Key: http://www.coughlan.net/desmond/pgp/pubring.pkr *
* Fingerprint: 3F1F C838 88D5 2659 B00A 6DF6 6883 FB9C E34A AC93 *
**********************************************************************
A Planet Visitor
"Desmond Coughlan" <des...@gateway.voute.net> wrote in message
news:slrn93slmo...@gateway.voute.net...
> On 18 Dec 2000 17:52:43 GMT, Charles Trew <db...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
> > Two convicted murderers have successfully escaped from prison in
> > Texas. The two were joined by 5 other inmates serving time for violent
> > crimes. The escape took place several days ago and the police have run out
> > of leads.
>
> Were the two sentenced to die ? If so, may God guide them to the Mexican
> border.
>
Look very closely at what you have written here, Desmond. And
then understand why others rightly can call you a 'murderer lover.'
You would support further murders by proven murderers in order
to assist them in escaping from the U.S. You would call on God
to 'guide' them so they will not be captured before reaching Mexico.
But you express no concern for new victims they might claim on
that journey. I guess you feel God need not concern Himself with
those victims. You have surely placed murderer's lives at a higher
value than the lives of any new victims.
PV
princess of faff
>"Desmond Coughlan" <des...@gateway.voute.net> wrote in message
>news:slrn93slmo...@gateway.voute.net...
>> Were the two sentenced to die ? If so, may God guide them to the Mexican
>> border.
>Look very closely at what you have written here, Desmond. And
>then understand why others rightly can call you a 'murderer lover.'
It is hyperbole and Desmond is known to engage in it on quite a number of
occasions. I don't agree with it but I can see his point of view.
>You would support further murders by proven murderers in order
>to assist them in escaping from the U.S.
That's not what he said, PV. He obviously doesn't support further murders.
He just wishes that these people are not executed.
>You would call on God
>to 'guide' them so they will not be captured before reaching Mexico.
>But you express no concern for new victims they might claim on
>that journey. I guess you feel God need not concern Himself with
>those victims. You have surely placed murderer's lives at a higher
>value than the lives of any new victims.
Desmond appears here to believe that the moral evil of executing a murderer
is at least as great as the evil that said murderer committed (or is likely
to commit in the future). As I say, I don't agree with him but can
understand the sentiment to a certain extent.
Mr Q. Z. D.
Geert Zandman
murderers who kill without a reason are rare, only the group of serial
killers are a threat to society, all the others
are not very likely to kill again. They SHOULD be punished, but in prison ,
not by REVENGE....
I am sure Desmond agrees with me that hopefully these men reach Mexico, so
do I, and I hope these do not belong to the
group of serial killers. The best would be that these men spend many more
years in prison before being released.
but if faced with the death penalty I can only hope they will reach
Mexico.....
Geert Zandman
"princess of faff" <aliso...@goplay.com> wrote in message
news:91lpum$rm3$2...@plutonium.btinternet.com...
A Planet Visitor
"Geert Zandman" <Geert....@T-online.de> wrote in message
news:91lvqq$ea$07$1...@news.t-online.com...
> Hi all,
>
> murderers who kill without a reason are rare, only the group of serial
> killers are a threat to society, all the others
> are not very likely to kill again. They SHOULD be punished, but in prison ,
> not by REVENGE....
> I am sure Desmond agrees with me that hopefully these men reach Mexico, so
> do I, and I hope these do not belong to the
> group of serial killers. The best would be that these men spend many more
> years in prison before being released.
> but if faced with the death penalty I can only hope they will reach
> Mexico.....
>
>
> Geert Zandman
Good for you. Perhaps you and Desmond can form a rescue
party to insure safe passage across the border. Be careful
that you only carry Traveler's Checks, however, because
escaped murderers just love cash.
PV
A Planet Visitor
"princess of faff" <aliso...@goplay.com> wrote in message
news:91lpum$rm3$2...@plutonium.btinternet.com...
>
> >"Desmond Coughlan" <des...@gateway.voute.net> wrote in message
> >news:slrn93slmo...@gateway.voute.net...
>
> >> Were the two sentenced to die ? If so, may God guide them to the Mexican
> >> border.
>
> >Look very closely at what you have written here, Desmond. And
> >then understand why others rightly can call you a 'murderer lover.'
>
> It is hyperbole and Desmond is known to engage in it on quite a number of
> occasions. I don't agree with it but I can see his point of view.
>
Hypebole is fine in the abstract. But this is a real life situation.
The men are murderers, and murderers do murder, regardless
of imaginary hyperbole. Which of us would enjoy meeting any
of these escapees on the way to God 'guiding' them to Mexico?
Desmond, perhaps?
> >You would support further murders by proven murderers in order
> >to assist them in escaping from the U.S.
>
> That's not what he said, PV. He obviously doesn't support further murders.
> He just wishes that these people are not executed.
Regardless of the consequences to other innocents? He asked
for God to 'guide' them. He did not ask for them not to murder
further innocents while they are being 'guided.'
>
> >You would call on God
> >to 'guide' them so they will not be captured before reaching Mexico.
> >But you express no concern for new victims they might claim on
> >that journey. I guess you feel God need not concern Himself with
> >those victims. You have surely placed murderer's lives at a higher
> >value than the lives of any new victims.
>
> Desmond appears here to believe that the moral evil of executing a murderer
> is at least as great as the evil that said murderer committed (or is likely
> to commit in the future). As I say, I don't agree with him but can
> understand the sentiment to a certain extent.
>
Sorry, Mr. D. I cannot understand. Hoping that a murderer
is 'guided' by God to Mexico, regardless of the consequences
(since he simply did not say they would be teleported), is
beyond the pale to me. Does he really believe that someone
who has murdered and has now escaped from prison will not
do ANYTHING to evade recapture? Does he really believe
that 'God' will guide them, without a risk to others? Please
understand that this is a REAL situation we are discussing
here. Murderers have escaped from prison, and it will quite
likely result in further murders. This goes to the heart of my
argument against Desmond and other abolitionists, who view
the murders that create the DP only in abstract terms. The
past murders were not abstract, and neither will be any further
murders that occur. I suppose that ala 'Greenawalt,' if
any of the escaped murderers are 'guided' by God to Mexico
and just happen to murder 4 good Samaritans along the way,
it will be what God, and Desmond wished to happen, as long
as they make it to Mexico. Well, I would hope that God has
enough principles to insure that they are recaptured BEFORE
further innocents are slaughtered. Regardless of where they
are recaptured.
PV
> Mr Q. Z. D.
>
>
Sharpjfa
>From: "Geert Zandman" Geert....@T-online.de
>Date: 12/18/00 4:33 PM EST
>Message-id: <91lvqq$ea$07$1...@news.t-online.com>
>
>Hi all,
>
>murderers who kill without a reason are rare, only the group of serial
>killers are a threat to society, all the others
>are not very likely to kill again. They SHOULD be punished, but in prison ,
Not likely is the issue. It happens much more often than it should. We know
that living murderers are infinitely more likely to harm and murder again than
are executed murderers. Revenge has nothing to do with it. Such charge is
unfounded.
sharp Justice For All http://www.jfa.net/
http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/ http://www.murdervictims.com/
Overwhelmingly, the US criminal justice system benefits criminals, dishonors
victims and contributes to future victimizations.
Desmond Coughlan
> > > Texas. The two were joined by 5 other inmates serving time for violent
> > > crimes. The escape took place several days ago and the police have run out
> > > of leads.
> > Were the two sentenced to die ? If so, may God guide them to the Mexican
> > border.
> Look very closely at what you have written here, Desmond. And
> then understand why others rightly can call you a 'murderer lover.'
'Others' might just include you, Drewl, and that little upstart Mateo,
whose post I shall deal with later on, Planet Visitor. By no stretch
of the imagination, however, do the intelligent posters on this newsgroup
consider me a 'murderer lover', unless you count 'loving' every human being
equally, which I believe is a fundamental duty of all of us.
> You would support further murders by proven murderers in order
> to assist them in escaping from the U.S. You would call on God
> to 'guide' them so they will not be captured before reaching Mexico.
> But you express no concern for new victims they might claim on
> that journey. I guess you feel God need not concern Himself with
> those victims. You have surely placed murderer's lives at a higher
> value than the lives of any new victims.
With all due respect, PV, you're talking through a hole in your arse (or
'ass', if you prefer). We have demonstrated to you and to other retention-
ists time and time again, that the risk of recidivism is lower among
those convicted of murder, than those convicted of non-lethal offences.
So in short, if there are any 'new victims' to be had between Huntsville
and the Mexican border, it's almost a dead certainty (if you'll excuse my
choice of words) that they won't be because of these escaped convicts.
You don't seem to care for the truth. You hide behind this 'for the
victims' mantra, even although the truth has been rammed up your arse
so often that it's getting embarrassing. You claim that I and other
abolitionists don't care about the victims, when we both know that the
victims are dead, and that the death penalty is more to do with satisfying
a base desire for revenge in the living.
I personally don't want these prisoners to remain free, but (and it is
a big 'but') if the only alternative is for them to destroyed by the
state, at the behest of vengeful and shortsighted people like you, then
yes, I do hope that they make it to Mexico. And God (if He exists) is
on my side. As is Right.
You're morally bankrupt, PV. And you know it. Now if you'll excuse me,
I have to get to work.
Earl Evleth
----------
Dans l'article <slrn93u3t6...@gateway.voute.net>,
des...@gateway.voute.net (Desmond Coughlan) a écrit :
> You're morally bankrupt, PV. And you know it. Now if you'll excuse me,
> I have to get to work.
Another member of the PV fan club.
Earl
that_frog_...@my-deja.com
wrote:
> Now if you'll excuse me,I have to get to work.
Desi, Isn't it about time McDonald gets you fired again?
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
MrMateo
des...@coughlan.net wrote:
> On 18 Dec 2000 17:52:43 GMT, Charles Trew <db...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA>
wrote:
>
> > Two convicted murderers have successfully escaped from prison
in
> > Texas. The two were joined by 5 other inmates serving time for
violent
> > crimes. The escape took place several days ago and the police have
run out
> > of leads.
>
> Were the two sentenced to die ? If so, may God guide them to the
Mexican
> border.
>
> [snip]
Thank you for proving my point, dickhead.
>
> --
> **********************************************************************
> * Desmond Coughlan Network Engineer Forum des Images Paris *
> * dcou...@vdp.fr http://www.forumdesimages.net/ (01) 44.76.62.29 *
> * PGP Public Key: http://www.coughlan.net/desmond/pgp/pubring.pkr *
> * Fingerprint: 3F1F C838 88D5 2659 B00A 6DF6 6883 FB9C E34A AC93 *
> **********************************************************************
>
MrMateo
"Geert Zandman" <Geert....@T-online.de> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> murderers who kill without a reason are rare, only the group of
serial
> killers are a threat to society, all the others
> are not very likely to kill again.
Only serial killers kill again? And how exactly did you come up
with that one? I have to tell you, I about fell out of my chair from
laughing when I saw that one.
They SHOULD be punished, but in prison ,
> not by REVENGE....
> I am sure Desmond agrees with me that hopefully these men reach
Mexico,
...which shows a complete and utter disrespect you have for the
personal safety of your fellow man, as well as simple justice. Go see a
mental health professional, if you are not already. You really need
some help.
MrMateo
Oops! Now, you have done it, PV. You just made a reasoned
response. This means Mr. Q. Z. D. is going to react by doing the same
thing he does with any other reasonable pro-DP person who makes a good
point: He killfiles them.
A Planet Visitor
"MrMateo" <hou...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:91nool$p3c$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
I'm quite sure that Mr. D. will not be putting me in his killfile. He
and I have crossed swords more than once. He does have
principles regarding his opposition to the DP, while always
recognizing that my views hold other principles to a higher
standard. And in the end, that's what the DP is all about:
Our human value system and the standards we apply to
the principles which shape our opinion regarding the morality
of the DP. No one, other than a murderer, finds it easy to
kill another human. Yet we do it in war, in self-defense,
and when someone has shown they have already
murdered, and will quite likely murder again. And in those
cases, MY principles force me to accept the lesser of two
evils as the morally correct choice.
PV
A Planet Visitor
"Earl Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote in message
news:91na3b$9qi$1...@news2.isdnet.net...
If you had been here for awhile, you would be aware that there
is no love lost between Desmond and myself. It was I who
first introduced him to his true love, 'Dolly,' and it was I who
coined the term 'penis envy,' in this newsgroup in his honor.
For some time Desmond could not stand the heat being generated
and placed me in his 'killfile,' - an honor which I still cherish.
Nevertheless, after reflecting on the fact that this merely
allowed me to attack his insanity without concern for any
response from him, the obvious defect in this approach,
penetrated even his concrete head. But he has continued to
insult this newsgroup with comments such as
'the dead cannot be honored,'
'The Balkans are not in Europe,'
'The nazis would have attacked the U.S. after Europe fell to them,'
'No one I know has been robbed or threatened. No one I know,
knows someone who has been robbed or threatened,'
'The murder of an innocent by a wrongly released murderer is
the lesser of two evils.'
'Sadly, it is an undeniable fact that the 'American Dream' is nothing
more than a thin façade hiding the quest for riches,'
'Jigsaw lives in Florida, last time I heard, Eugene. Down there, the
good ol' boys don't like them ****** comin' in from South America an'
stealin' tha wimmyn, and causin' all that crime, now ...'
'not once have I had a revolver stuck in my face, accompanied
by the eloquent words, 'Gimme da dough, mothafucka o ah toast
yo ass !!'
and now this. And yes, I do archive his more irrational postings,
as I have done with his latest. He has continually claimed he is not
'racist,' or europhobic, but his comments often reflect otherwise.
He has continually claimed that his principles rest on his view of
'human rights,' but has never actually explained what that view is.
Do all living humans have those rights (including those who might
be murdered), or do only murderers - is a question he has never
answered. He has never explained who provided him (since he
disavows any existence of a creator), this insightful view of 'human
rights,' when even the most concise dictionary has difficulty putting
it into words. His 'feeling' must be enough. And using that feeling,
he see it free to attack any opposition or opinion without reasonable
discussion.
And the fact that you, or any other abolitionist, does not
rise up in fury to condemn the statement of Desmond in
his latest diatribe, shows the truth behind the mask. This
is not an abstract example of the DP, nor is it hyperbole on
the part of Desmond. It is plain sick to call upon God to
save a murderer, even if it means that the murderer will
kill again. If you have problems understanding this, ask
Donna for help. The fact is, those who would not condemn the
statement of Desmond, place more value on the life of a
murderer than the life of any future innocent victim. Do
you?
PV
>
>
> Earl
>
Earl Evleth
--
----------
Dans l'article <91litb$2ma$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>,
db...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Charles Trew) a écrit :
Is this an important story representative of a non-exceptional situation
or part of the "ain't it awful series"?
Earl
A Planet Visitor
That will depend upon whether they murder again in their
travels to Mexico, 'guided' by God, as Desmond would say.
You, least of all, should be calling a comment to task. The
comment was about murderers... this newsgroup is about
murderers and the penalties society exacts against those
murderers. The post was right on point, as opposed to the
many meanderings you post, Poor Earl.
PV
> Earl
>
>
A Planet Visitor
> Captain's Log, Star Date Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:21:55 GMT ... Message Coming in
on Subspace from A Planet Visitor, <abc...@abcxyz.com> ...
>
> > > > Texas. The two were joined by 5 other inmates serving time for violent
> > > > crimes. The escape took place several days ago and the police have run
out
> > > > of leads.
>
> > > Were the two sentenced to die ? If so, may God guide them to the Mexican
> > > border.
>
> > Look very closely at what you have written here, Desmond. And
> > then understand why others rightly can call you a 'murderer lover.'
>
> 'Others' might just include you, Drewl, and that little upstart Mateo,
> whose post I shall deal with later on, Planet Visitor. By no stretch
> of the imagination, however, do the intelligent posters on this newsgroup
> consider me a 'murderer lover', unless you count 'loving' every human being
> equally, which I believe is a fundamental duty of all of us.
>
You forgot to include Sharp in your comparison. Read my post
to Earl, because it's stupid to keep repeating it, and even when
I do, you seem to have trouble understanding. You have been
called to task numerous times by abolitionists, and you well know
it. But your response this time is to place me in a similar category to
others, hoping that something will brush off. I stand by what I
(emphasis on I) say, you should stand by what you (emphasis
on you) say. I have no quarrel with any who you might compare
me with, but it is ME that you are engaging in dialog with, not
them. Keep that in mind, because it is YOUR words that we
are discussing.
> > You would support further murders by proven murderers in order
> > to assist them in escaping from the U.S. You would call on God
> > to 'guide' them so they will not be captured before reaching Mexico.
> > But you express no concern for new victims they might claim on
> > that journey. I guess you feel God need not concern Himself with
> > those victims. You have surely placed murderer's lives at a higher
> > value than the lives of any new victims.
>
> With all due respect, PV, you're talking through a hole in your arse (or
> 'ass', if you prefer). We have demonstrated to you and to other retention-
> ists time and time again, that the risk of recidivism is lower among
> those convicted of murder, than those convicted of non-lethal offences.
> So in short, if there are any 'new victims' to be had between Huntsville
> and the Mexican border, it's almost a dead certainty (if you'll excuse my
> choice of words) that they won't be because of these escaped convicts.
>
Greenawalt. Need I say more. Murderer... sentenced to Life...
escaped... murdered four new victims. See any comparisons
here? See who's talking through their ass? I have been down
that road with Poor Earl, and he has retreated. Simply put, in
example form, if you have 1000 new murders by those having
been convicted previously of any crime, and a recidivist rate
of 6.6% by convicted murderers committing those murders, that
means 66 murders will be committed by those having been
convicted of murder previously. That leaves 934 murders
committed by those previously convicted of non-lethal offenses,
or 93.4%. Now in 1983 the total number of PRISONERS
(lethal and non-lethal) released was 106,216 of which 3,258
were murderers. The murderer to non-murderer ratio of
released prisoners was 3.07% So 3.07% of all prisoners
released (those who had murdered), committed 6.6% of all
recidivist murders. Would you expect 3,258 released murderers
to commit more murders (or even close to the same number of
murders) as 102,958 (106,216 - 3,258) released non-
lethal offenders would? If so, then the lunacy of your
claim reflects on you, not me. It's simply smoke and mirror,
and does no service to true abolitionist who see through the
claim immediately. With so many other valid reasons to form
an opinion to oppose the DP, it's common deception and fraud
to assert the claim you make is either believable or factual.
> You don't seem to care for the truth. You hide behind this 'for the
> victims' mantra, even although the truth has been rammed up your arse
> so often that it's getting embarrassing. You claim that I and other
> abolitionists don't care about the victims, when we both know that the
> victims are dead, and that the death penalty is more to do with satisfying
> a base desire for revenge in the living.
>
> I personally don't want these prisoners to remain free, but (and it is
> a big 'but') if the only alternative is for them to destroyed by the
> state, at the behest of vengeful and shortsighted people like you, then
> yes, I do hope that they make it to Mexico. And God (if He exists) is
> on my side. As is Right.
>
But you most certainly DO want them to remain free... and you
would enjoin God (who you don't even believe in), to help in
their escape, regardless of the consequences. What if they
have to shoot it out with border guards during their attempt to
cross the border? Would you hope that God helps them murder
a few guards to make it? After all, they might escape Texas by
doing so. So in your mind those murders would be just fine, but
the execution of proven murderers who murder again is unjust.
> You're morally bankrupt, PV. And you know it. Now if you'll excuse me,
> I have to get to work.
Not quite, Desmond. I am reminded quite vividly of another
comment you made some time ago, that struck me as appropriate
here, and I posted to Poor Earl:
'The murder of an innocent by a wrongly released murderer is
the lesser of two evils.'
Now I think that 'wrongly released murderer,' is certainly one
who escapes. And I think the 'morally bankrupt' question is
answered with your comment. You have enjoined God to help
murderers escape, WITHOUT regard for the consequences,
EVEN if it means the murder of an innocent. How 'morally
bankrupt' is that view? Address that fact, and none other. Do
not attempt to brush me off by comparisons with others.
PV
>
Earl Evleth
--
----------
Dans l'article <_BL%5.75503$58.96...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "A Planet
Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> a écrit :
> If you had been here for awhile, you would be aware that there
> is no love lost between Desmond and myself.
Do you always use clichés?
Earl
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
news:J0N%5.75598$58.96...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
Just in case anyone is the slightest bit interested I hope they are caught
as soon as possible. I note that they are convicted murderers but no
mention is made about whether they were on 'death row'. I presume not as
the publicity would have been immense. Can we have more facts please
Richard and Mitch? Yes, that what we want, more light and less heat.
princess of faff
>> >"Desmond Coughlan" <des...@gateway.voute.net> wrote in message
>> >news:slrn93slmo...@gateway.voute.net...
>>
>> >> Were the two sentenced to die ? If so, may God guide them to the
Mexican
>> >> border.
>>
>> >Look very closely at what you have written here, Desmond. And
>> >then understand why others rightly can call you a 'murderer lover.'
>>
>> It is hyperbole and Desmond is known to engage in it on quite a number of
>> occasions. I don't agree with it but I can see his point of view.
>Hypebole is fine in the abstract. But this is a real life situation.
>The men are murderers, and murderers do murder, regardless
>of imaginary hyperbole. Which of us would enjoy meeting any
>of these escapees on the way to God 'guiding' them to Mexico?
Assuming that these people were death row inmates then their escape would be
most unusual. If not then isn't the idea that executing certain kinds of
murderer to prevent recidivism something that should be extended to _all_
murderers or, perhaps, _all_ long-term detainees deemed likely to attempt
escape. This instance, in fact, serves to illustrate the problem that I have
with the notion of preventing recidivism. If they were capital murderers
then their impending execution failed to stop them from killing again. If
they were not then they killed again despite the fact that most pragmatic
retentionists wouldn't be howling for their execution, anyway.
Don't imagine for a moment that I agree with Desmond on this matter. The
fact that I find state-sanctioned killing as repugnant as almost any murder
does leave me, if not actually sympathetic then understanding of these
people. More about that in a second...
Nobody would want to meet these escapees at all. Nor would _I_ want to see
them escape in the first instance. I am completely unmoved by notions of
cruelty and would quite happily see such people locked in 4' by 4' cells and
never released. Ever. The notion of killing being wrong is a moral one for
me.
>Desmond, perhaps?
>
>> >You would support further murders by proven murderers in order
>> >to assist them in escaping from the U.S.
>>
>> That's not what he said, PV. He obviously doesn't support further
murders.
>> He just wishes that these people are not executed.
>
>Regardless of the consequences to other innocents? He asked
>for God to 'guide' them. He did not ask for them not to murder
>further innocents while they are being 'guided.'
Which is, I think, my point. He wants no further murders and doesn't want to
see any state sanctioned killing, either.
>> Desmond appears here to believe that the moral evil of executing a
murderer
>> is at least as great as the evil that said murderer committed (or is
likely
>> to commit in the future). As I say, I don't agree with him but can
>> understand the sentiment to a certain extent.
>>
>
>Sorry, Mr. D. I cannot understand. Hoping that a murderer
>is 'guided' by God to Mexico, regardless of the consequences
>(since he simply did not say they would be teleported), is
>beyond the pale to me. Does he really believe that someone
>who has murdered and has now escaped from prison will not
>do ANYTHING to evade recapture?
More so, I imagine, someone who has murdered and been sentenced to death. I
would imagine that a brutal murderer seeking to avoid their own death would
be quite a bit more likely to engage all necessary measures to avoid
recapture.
>Does he really believe
>that 'God' will guide them, without a risk to others?
My guess is that Desmond is not a believer.
>Please
>understand that this is a REAL situation we are discussing
>here. Murderers have escaped from prison, and it will quite
>likely result in further murders.
If an armed robber escapes from prison, it is likely that murders will result
from the escape. Do we, therefore, execute all armed robbers on the basis
that they may murder if they attempt an escape?
>This goes to the heart of my
>argument against Desmond and other abolitionists, who view
>the murders that create the DP only in abstract terms. The
>past murders were not abstract, and neither will be any further
>murders that occur. I suppose that ala 'Greenawalt,' if
>any of the escaped murderers are 'guided' by God to Mexico
>and just happen to murder 4 good Samaritans along the way,
>it will be what God, and Desmond wished to happen, as long
>as they make it to Mexico. Well, I would hope that God has
>enough principles to insure that they are recaptured BEFORE
>further innocents are slaughtered. Regardless of where they
>are recaptured.
These people should never have been allowed the opportunity to escape. Nor
should they, if they in fact were, have been condemned to die. We can talk
about "closure" and "recidivism" for quite a long while but _I_ cannot accept
the DP because, in terms of my morality, I cannot accept the intentional
killing of human beings with malice aforethought.
Mr Q. Z. D.
princess of faff
> Oops! Now, you have done it, PV. You just made a reasoned
>response.
A reasoned response, Matthew, that I believe is wrong.
A reasoned response is far more than I've ever expected from you, though.
>This means Mr. Q. Z. D. is going to react by doing the same
>thing he does with any other reasonable pro-DP person who makes a good
>point: He killfiles them.
Being killfile-less at the present time (owing to being on holiday in foreign
climes) I seem to have encountered your imbecilic piffle once again, Matthew.
I killfile only trolls, idiots and regular spammers.
You don't seem to be a troll or a spammer.
Now what does that leave...?
Mr Q. Z. D.
A Planet Visitor
Only when I need to dumb-down my responses to you, Poor
Earl. Only when I need to dumb-down my responses to you.
PV
A Planet Visitor
> A Planet Visitor was probably drunk when they wrote...
>
> >> >"Desmond Coughlan" <des...@gateway.voute.net> wrote in message
> >> >news:slrn93slmo...@gateway.voute.net...
> >>
> >> >> Were the two sentenced to die ? If so, may God guide them to the
> Mexican
> >> >> border.
> >>
> >> >Look very closely at what you have written here, Desmond. And
> >> >then understand why others rightly can call you a 'murderer lover.'
> >>
> >> It is hyperbole and Desmond is known to engage in it on quite a number of
> >> occasions. I don't agree with it but I can see his point of view.
>
> >Hypebole is fine in the abstract. But this is a real life situation.
> >The men are murderers, and murderers do murder, regardless
> >of imaginary hyperbole. Which of us would enjoy meeting any
> >of these escapees on the way to God 'guiding' them to Mexico?
>
> Assuming that these people were death row inmates then their escape would be
> most unusual. If not then isn't the idea that executing certain kinds of
> murderer to prevent recidivism something that should be extended to _all_
> murderers or, perhaps, _all_ long-term detainees deemed likely to attempt
> escape. This instance, in fact, serves to illustrate the problem that I have
> with the notion of preventing recidivism. If they were capital murderers
> then their impending execution failed to stop them from killing again. If
> they were not then they killed again despite the fact that most pragmatic
> retentionists wouldn't be howling for their execution, anyway.
>
But if they HAD been executed they would not be around to
escape. This is the point of the DP. Anyone sentenced to
L wop could be these two escapees. The fault which
allowed their escape is the fault of the Justice System... not
the DP. Escapes which allow further murders, releases
from murder sentences which permit further murders,
murders within prisons, and execution of innocents are all
faults of the Justice System. Not the DP. They are all evil,
they are all immoral, they all (in one way or the other), have
taken away the 'human rights' of an innocent. Do the
evils we permit by excluding the DP, exceed the evils
we permit by using the DP? And extending the concept of
the DP to all murderers, is certainly wrong, it needs
no further elaboration, and you know that fact quite well.
> Don't imagine for a moment that I agree with Desmond on this matter. The
> fact that I find state-sanctioned killing as repugnant as almost any murder
> does leave me, if not actually sympathetic then understanding of these
> people. More about that in a second...
>
> Nobody would want to meet these escapees at all. Nor would _I_ want to see
> them escape in the first instance. I am completely unmoved by notions of
> cruelty and would quite happily see such people locked in 4' by 4' cells and
> never released. Ever. The notion of killing being wrong is a moral one for
> me.
>
I once read a work of fiction... a piece of fluff, the name of
which I cannot even remember. It concerned the possibility
that the Soviets had captured Hitler in his bunker, and had
transported him to the USSR, at the pleasure of Stalin. He
was placed stark naked in a cage such as you describe where
he could not sit, stand or lie down... only stoop in perpetuate.
The cage was suspended 4 feet off the ground. He was kept that
way for many years, without one instant of release to relieve
himself, or find sleep, and he was fed only scraps of raw meat
as if an animal. He naturally went insane very quickly. Stalin
had instructed the Soviet Officer in change of Hitler's captivity
to shoot Hitler, when Stalin died. When that day happened.
Hitler knew he was about to be dispatched and actually reveled
in two facts. One: His agony was ending. And Two: He had
outlived Stalin, even if only by hours. My point is that sometimes
there are worse things then death, and sometimes those in the
captivity you describe find a large degree of insane satisfaction
that they have outlived their victims by a large number of years.
Torture is not my forte, Mr. D. I see what you describe as
infinitely more horrendous than execution of a proven murderer.
Absolutely agree.
>
> >Does he really believe
> >that 'God' will guide them, without a risk to others?
>
> My guess is that Desmond is not a believer.
>
> >Please
> >understand that this is a REAL situation we are discussing
> >here. Murderers have escaped from prison, and it will quite
> >likely result in further murders.
>
> If an armed robber escapes from prison, it is likely that murders will result
> from the escape. Do we, therefore, execute all armed robbers on the basis
> that they may murder if they attempt an escape?
>
We punish for the crime in question, and the possibility of
recommission of THAT crime. It's rather unseemly to
assume that ANYONE other than a murderer should be
executed, regardless of a perceived propensity to murder.
Next will probably come 'thought crime' punishment. When
this idea is presented it's quite obvious that it's done only to
recognize the fact that ANYONE... the man on the street,
the armed robber, the guy next door... may possibly murder.
But the fact is they have NOT done so. We execute because
a murder HAS been committed by the one to be executed.
We should only execute those who 1) Have murdered, and
2) will quite possibly murder again. 1) recognizes the fact
that we (society) have the RIGHT to execute (if our laws
provide that right), and 2) recognizes the fact that we have
the right to self-defense of our society. It is not an either-
or choice. Both standards must be met. Totally and
completely.
> >This goes to the heart of my
> >argument against Desmond and other abolitionists, who view
> >the murders that create the DP only in abstract terms. The
> >past murders were not abstract, and neither will be any further
> >murders that occur. I suppose that ala 'Greenawalt,' if
> >any of the escaped murderers are 'guided' by God to Mexico
> >and just happen to murder 4 good Samaritans along the way,
> >it will be what God, and Desmond wished to happen, as long
> >as they make it to Mexico. Well, I would hope that God has
> >enough principles to insure that they are recaptured BEFORE
> >further innocents are slaughtered. Regardless of where they
> >are recaptured.
>
> These people should never have been allowed the opportunity to escape. Nor
> should they, if they in fact were, have been condemned to die. We can talk
> about "closure" and "recidivism" for quite a long while but _I_ cannot accept
> the DP because, in terms of my morality, I cannot accept the intentional
> killing of human beings with malice aforethought.
>
Of course they should never have been allowed the opportunity
to escape. And we should never execute an innocent. But
'never' in a error prone human system of any kind (think Florida
votes), can never be assured.
Earl Evleth
--
----------
Dans l'article <INQ%5.166413$vc3.29...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "A
Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> a écrit :
> Only when I need to dumb-down my responses to you, Poor
> Earl. Only when I need to dumb-down my responses to you.
You are repeating yourself again.
Earl
Desmond Coughlan
[snip]
> > with the notion of preventing recidivism. If they were capital murderers
> > then their impending execution failed to stop them from killing again. If
> > they were not then they killed again despite the fact that most pragmatic
> > retentionists wouldn't be howling for their execution, anyway.
> But if they HAD been executed they would not be around to
> escape. This is the point of the DP. Anyone sentenced to
> L wop could be these two escapees.
As could anyone sentenced to death, up to the time of their death,
PV. So once again, I'm afraid, it's your anus that's talking. Now
this thread has got out of hand, and I have to go to the Town Hall to
pick up a replacement driving licence, so let me just once more be
brief.
The death penalty in this case (I'm assuming, since I have heard no
information to the contrary, that these two were _not_ sentenced to
die) would have changed sweet F-A, as (unless you're advocating a
death sentence, and then a bullet in the head behind the courthouse)
there will always be a period between sentencing, and death; a period
during which escape is a possibility.
So, going on the assumption that these two are not under threat of
death, then I very much hope that their capture is swift, and blood-
less for all concerned, and that they are very quickly back behind
bars where they belong.
If, however, they _have_ been sentenced to death, then yes, I hope
that they make it to the Mexican border. Love murderers ? No, I
don't. At least not anymore than I do any other human being. Do
I care for victims ? Yes, I do. Future victims, and all the
statistical evidence we have (note that statistical evidence does not
include your belief that executing will save lives. No empirical
evidence exists to support your belief, and thus intellectually, we
_must_ discount it), suggests that the death penalty has had no
deterrent effect whatsoever.
One final point: you use the oft-repeated retentionist strawman, 'Would
_you_ like to meet these people on their way to Mexico ?' Well no, I
wouldn't, but that is my human trait called fear. Statistically, I
am in less danger from these people (I say 'am, although I mean 'would
be' ... I'm sure you understand) than I am from someone who has not yet
killed. If I met them, I might be 'scared', but being scared, and being
in danger, are not necessarily the same thing.
Now, if you'll excuse me ...
[PS Mr. D ... I answered your e-mail, but I think I did so, to your
'work' address, out there ... ]
Earl Evleth
--
----------
Dans l'article <slrn940ub3...@gateway.voute.net>,
des...@gateway.voute.net (Desmond Coughlan) a écrit :
> But if they HAD been executed they would not be around to
>> escape. This is the point of the DP. Anyone sentenced to
>> L wop could be these two escapees.
>
> As could anyone sentenced to death, up to the time of their death,
> PV. So once again, I'm afraid, it's your anus that's talking. Now
> this thread has got out of hand, and I have to go to the Town Hall to
> pick up a replacement driving licence, so let me just once more be
> brief.
>
> The death penalty in this case (I'm assuming, since I have heard no
> information to the contrary, that these two were _not_ sentenced to
> die) would have changed sweet F-A, as (unless you're advocating a
> death sentence, and then a bullet in the head behind the courthouse)
> there will always be a period between sentencing, and death; a period
> during which escape is a possibility.
There is so much apple and orange stuff said on this NG it appears
that the position of PV and Sharp is to execute ALL murderers.
This is not present public policy, since the type of murder determines
if the death penalty is applied. In fact the Supreme Court decided a
while back that one can not have a blanket death penalty to be applied
blindly, a jury or a judge has to make that decision based on reviewing
all the mitigating factors.
Executing all murderers would not be acceptable to the general public,
they can only stand a limited number of executions per year. An all
murderer execution policy would involved over 10,000 executions a year,
the maximum America has ever "enjoyed" was around 200 in the early 1930s.
The blood lusters may get to that level, but not thousands a year.
So the next level of treatment is to keep any murderer in jail forever,
from the drunk driver killer up to the worse of the non-capital killers.
Earl
Desmond Coughlan
> > You're morally bankrupt, PV. And you know it. Now if you'll excuse me,
> > I have to get to work.
> Another member of the PV fan club.
Well in actual fact, I do believe that PV is one of our more intelligent
retentionists (then again, that shouldn't be hard ... an ability to
count to 11 and to write one's name, takes one into the top 1% of
retentionists ...). This is why I get annoyed when he posts such
utter crap concerning the 'concern' that he feels for innocent life,
and which he uses to justify the death penalty. Of course, the
implication in his posts, is that we 'do not care' about innocent
victims.
Of course, _really_ caring for victims, involves supporting those
measures that prevent crime. Thus PV's mindless belief that the
death penalty 'saves lives', when no credible evidence over the past
2,000 years, has shown this to be the case, could leave him open to
being called a 'murderer lover'. I say 'could', because that sort of
idiotic name-calling, is reserved for the retentionists.
MrMateo
A Planet Visitor
Generally because you fail to grasp the concept the first time,
and even have problems when it is repeated, Poor Earl.
Have I dumbed this down sufficient for you to understand,
or must I repeat it?
PV
>
A Planet Visitor
>
> --
>
>
> ----------
> Dans l'article <slrn940ub3...@gateway.voute.net>,
> des...@gateway.voute.net (Desmond Coughlan) a écrit :
>
>
> > But if they HAD been executed they would not be around to
> >> escape. This is the point of the DP. Anyone sentenced to
> >> L wop could be these two escapees.
> >
> > As could anyone sentenced to death, up to the time of their death,
> > PV. So once again, I'm afraid, it's your anus that's talking. Now
> > this thread has got out of hand, and I have to go to the Town Hall to
> > pick up a replacement driving licence, so let me just once more be
> > brief.
> >
> > The death penalty in this case (I'm assuming, since I have heard no
> > information to the contrary, that these two were _not_ sentenced to
> > die) would have changed sweet F-A, as (unless you're advocating a
> > death sentence, and then a bullet in the head behind the courthouse)
> > there will always be a period between sentencing, and death; a period
> > during which escape is a possibility.
>
> There is so much apple and orange stuff said on this NG it appears
> that the position of PV and Sharp is to execute ALL murderers.
>
This is not apple and orange stuff on your part, Poor Earl.
It is plain and simple 'shit,' on your part. You well know that
I do not support the execution of ALL murderers, nor even
a majority of those we now execute. Your statement is
quite the same, as if I claimed that you support the RELEASE
of all murderers. But I find more and more in the posts
of you and your buddies Peter Morris, and Desmond (The
Clique), the following. Lies; deceit; misquotes; distortions;
ignoring responses when factual evidence is presented; claims
that no murderers who have been executed would have murdered
again; claims that many more innocents are executed then could
possibly be true; puerile claims that those who value innocent lives
must have 'corroded' souls. And the 'list' goes on. You 3
are the worst of the lot, because you distort a moral decision
that doesn't need to be distorted. Many factual objections
to the DP do exist, in a moral-opinion context. But you 3
are not satisfied to address those issues, and instead resort
to the 'list.' Try to at least stay factual in your posts, because
you seem to be drifting off.
> This is not present public policy, since the type of murder determines
> if the death penalty is applied. In fact the Supreme Court decided a
> while back that one can not have a blanket death penalty to be applied
> blindly, a jury or a judge has to make that decision based on reviewing
> all the mitigating factors.
>
> Executing all murderers would not be acceptable to the general public,
> they can only stand a limited number of executions per year. An all
> murderer execution policy would involved over 10,000 executions a year,
> the maximum America has ever "enjoyed" was around 200 in the early 1930s.
> The blood lusters may get to that level, but not thousands a year.
>
> So the next level of treatment is to keep any murderer in jail forever,
> from the drunk driver killer up to the worse of the non-capital killers.
>
Just more 'shit.' Perhaps the 'next level' is 'thought' murder, for
Poor Earl. After all, he is the one who claimed that 'murder is a
normal human reaction.' We have both 'normal' murderers and
'non-violent' murderers in his words.
We provide PENALTIES for crimes, appropriate to the crime in
question. And if there is, in any moral context, a crime justifying
penalty which CAN exact the execution of a human, it must ONLY
be the crime of murder, which has taken another human life. There
is no 'next level,' as Poor Earl would claim. If he proposes a
'next level' then it is his soul that is 'you-know- what.' Implementation
of the 'next level' is what would be prima facie evidence of immorality.
PV
> Earl
Desmond Coughlan
[snip]
> Thank you for proving my point, dickhead.
Point ?
You have a point ?
Care to remind us what it is ..?
Desmond Coughlan
> > murderers who kill without a reason are rare, only the group of
> serial
> > killers are a threat to society, all the others
> > are not very likely to kill again.
> Only serial killers kill again? And how exactly did you come up
> with that one? I have to tell you, I about fell out of my chair from
> laughing when I saw that one.
I hope you didn't hurt yourself. Hell, those highchairs are a killer
when mum isn't around ...
[snip]
> ...which shows a complete and utter disrespect you have for the
> personal safety of your fellow man, as well as simple justice. Go see a
> mental health professional, if you are not already. You really need
> some help.
Isn't it amazing that anyone disagreeing with Dolt-Boy, needs to seek
psychiatric help ?
Now who else used to reply like that ..?
[snip]
Charles Trew
>> You would support further murders by proven murderers in order
>> to assist them in escaping from the U.S. You would call on God
>> to 'guide' them so they will not be captured before reaching Mexico.
>> But you express no concern for new victims they might claim on
>> that journey. I guess you feel God need not concern Himself with
>> those victims. You have surely placed murderer's lives at a higher
>> value than the lives of any new victims.
>
> With all due respect, PV, you're talking through a hole in your arse (or
> 'ass', if you prefer). We have demonstrated to you and to other retention-
> ists time and time again, that the risk of recidivism is lower among
> those convicted of murder, than those convicted of non-lethal offences.
> So in short, if there are any 'new victims' to be had between Huntsville
> and the Mexican border, it's almost a dead certainty (if you'll excuse my
> choice of words) that they won't be because of these escaped convicts.
Escaped convicts on the run are about as high risk as any desperado you
can name.
And the issue of recidivism in this case means nothing.
Pro DP have simply pointed out that we have plenty of cases, many times
over, of killers killing or assaulting again than we do innocents being
executed.
Thus it should "auto" be a bigger issue for everybody than worrying
about the "struck by lightening ten times" odds of an innocent being
executed.
> I personally don't want these prisoners to remain free, but (and it is
> a big 'but') if the only alternative is for them to destroyed by the
> state, at the behest of vengeful and shortsighted people like you, then
> yes, I do hope that they make it to Mexico. And God (if He exists) is
> on my side. As is Right.
God could not possibly be on your side. If God exists he will be
banishing them to Hell for eternity so he (or she) wouldn't waste time by
letting them go free in Mexico and party with tequilla.
Charles Trew
>
>> Two convicted murderers have successfully escaped from prison in
>> Texas. The two were joined by 5 other inmates serving time for violent
>> crimes. The escape took place several days ago and the police have run out
>> of leads.
>> And in Brazil, the country's most famous serial killer, Francisco
>> "Park Maniac" Pereira was killed with a gun by another inmate. Four other
>> inmates were also killed during a riot at the country's maximum security
>> prison, Taubate. Officials are currently preparing to storm the prison.
>
>
> Is this an important story representative of a non-exceptional situation
> or part of the "ain't it awful series"?
It's to counter, in part, your arguments about innocents executed and
killers killing again.
Just serving you another reminder that there are routine cases of
killers escaping, assaulting and killing again.
And when was the last innocent killed...?
See, you dismiss our arguments as inconsequencial yet, when we provide
proof, you don't like it.
Just like when the closure issue was poo-poohed by some of you,
including your wife.
Then I show the next three in a row executed provided clsure for teh
victim's family, that, too was dismissed as not important.
Can you dig it?
MrMateo
des...@coughlan.net wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Dec 2000 10:35:56 +0100, Earl Evleth <dev...@noos.fr>
wrote:
>
> > > You're morally bankrupt, PV. And you know it. Now if you'll
excuse me,
> > > I have to get to work.
>
> > Another member of the PV fan club.
>
> Well in actual fact, I do believe that PV is one of our more
intelligent
> retentionists (then again, that shouldn't be hard ... an ability to
> count to 11 and to write one's name, takes one into the top 1% of
> retentionists ...). This is why I get annoyed when he posts such
> utter crap concerning the 'concern' that he feels for innocent life,
> and which he uses to justify the death penalty. Of course, the
> implication in his posts, is that we 'do not care' about innocent
> victims.
I do not even go that far. You do NOT care about innocent victims.
Period.
>
> Of course, _really_ caring for victims, involves supporting those
> measures that prevent crime. Thus PV's mindless belief that the
> death penalty 'saves lives', when no credible evidence over the past
> 2,000 years, has shown this to be the case,
So declining murder rates in states that carry out the death penalty
in frequency is not credible to you? How sad.
could leave him open to
> being called a 'murderer lover'. Only you and others of your ilk
could be called that, Desi.
I say 'could', because that sort of
> idiotic name-calling, is reserved for the retentionists.
Oh, you mean like "Dolt-boy"?
How about "you savage bastards" or "the retentionists could have
sent 50,000 of their
>piggy-eyed, pot-bellied, pickup-driving, rifle-totin', savage-minded
>little fascists"?
Or "'Sharp, you're a lying bastard.'?"
No need for the pot to call the kettle black.
I can hardly wait for your post-edited response (I guess you are
not man enough to keep a post intact, but then you are not man enough
to do a lot of things, like come down to Texas and say "piggy-eyed, pot-
bellied, pickup-driving, rifle-totin', savage-minded little fascist" to
someone's face, are you, Mr. CSC?).
>
> --
> **********************************************************************
> * Desmond Coughlan Network Engineer Forum des Images Paris *
> * dcou...@vdp.fr http://www.forumdesimages.net/ (01) 44.76.62.29 *
> * PGP Public Key: http://www.coughlan.net/desmond/pgp/pubring.pkr *
> * Fingerprint: 3F1F C838 88D5 2659 B00A 6DF6 6883 FB9C E34A AC93 *
> **********************************************************************
>
Donna Evleth
--
----------
Dans l'article <91t64m$psn$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca>,
db...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Charles Trew) a écrit :
> "Earl Evleth" (dev...@noos.fr) writes:
>
> (snipped)
>
> See, you dismiss our arguments as inconsequencial yet, when we provide
> proof, you don't like it.
> Just like when the closure issue was poo-poohed by some of you,
> including your wife
I never poo-poohed closure. I said in my original post that I believed
closure was important. Look at my most recent post for clarifications. I
don't mind taking flak for something I have done, I do mind when it is
something I have not done.
> Then I show the next three in a row executed provided clsure for teh
> victim's family, that, too was dismissed as not important.
I asked an honest question about this, which you were good enough to reply
to. I assume you will not include me in the accusation that I dismiss
closure as unimportant.
Donna Evleth
>
>
Mitchell Holman
}"Earl Evleth" (dev...@noos.fr) writes:
}
}>
}>> Two convicted murderers have successfully escaped from prison in
}>> Texas. The two were joined by 5 other inmates serving time for violent
}>> crimes. The escape took place several days ago and the police have run out
}>> of leads.
}>> And in Brazil, the country's most famous serial killer, Francisco
}>> "Park Maniac" Pereira was killed with a gun by another inmate. Four other
}>> inmates were also killed during a riot at the country's maximum security
}>> prison, Taubate. Officials are currently preparing to storm the prison.
}>
}
}>
}> Is this an important story representative of a non-exceptional situation
}> or part of the "ain't it awful series"?
}
}
}
} It's to counter, in part, your arguments about innocents executed and
}killers killing again.
} Just serving you another reminder that there are routine cases of
}killers escaping, assaulting and killing again.
Yep. Prisoners have escaped and killed people. In
non-DP as well as DP states alike. You remember those
non-DP states, the ones with lower murder rates that
the ones that execute?
Mitchell Holman
}In article <slrn941int...@gateway.voute.net>,
} des...@coughlan.net wrote:
}
} I can hardly wait for your post-edited response (I guess you are
}not man enough to keep a post intact, but then you are not man enough
}to do a lot of things, like come down to Texas and say "piggy-eyed, pot-
}bellied, pickup-driving, rifle-totin', savage-minded little fascist" to
}someone's face, are you, Mr. CSC?).
At least Desmond is "man enough" to post under
his own name, unlike some people here, "Mr Mateo".
Charles Trew
> }>> Two convicted murderers have successfully escaped from prison in
> }>> Texas. The two were joined by 5 other inmates serving time for violent
> }>> crimes. The escape took place several days ago and the police have run out
> }>> of leads.
> }>> And in Brazil, the country's most famous serial killer, Francisco
> }>> "Park Maniac" Pereira was killed with a gun by another inmate. Four other
> }>> inmates were also killed during a riot at the country's maximum security
> }>> prison, Taubate. Officials are currently preparing to storm the prison.
> }>
> }
> }>
> }> Is this an important story representative of a non-exceptional situation
> }> or part of the "ain't it awful series"?
> }
> }
> } It's to counter, in part, your arguments about innocents executed and
> }killers killing again.
> } Just serving you another reminder that there are routine cases of
> }killers escaping, assaulting and killing again.
>
>
> Yep. Prisoners have escaped and killed people. In
> non-DP as well as DP states alike. You remember those
> non-DP states, the ones with lower murder rates that
> the ones that execute?
Not all states without the DP have lower murder rates. And besides
many states with concealed carry permit for guns have the lowest rates of
violent crime of all.
Crime and lack of crime can also have different causes and may or
not be related to the DP. Singapore and Saudi have very low rates and they
are aggressive dp.
Desmond Coughlan
> } I can hardly wait for your post-edited response (I guess you are
> }not man enough to keep a post intact, but then you are not man enough
> }to do a lot of things, like come down to Texas and say "piggy-eyed, pot-
> }bellied, pickup-driving, rifle-totin', savage-minded little fascist" to
> }someone's face, are you, Mr. CSC?).
> At least Desmond is "man enough" to post under
> his own name, unlike some people here, "Mr Mateo".
Maybe 'Mateo' is his real name, Mitchell. Isn't there a toy manufacturer
by that name ..?
Desmond Coughlan
[snip]
> > and the Mexican border, it's almost a dead certainty (if you'll excuse my
> > choice of words) that they won't be because of these escaped convicts.
> Escaped convicts on the run are about as high risk as any desperado you
> can name.
Risk means nothing, Charles. What matter are crime figures, and those
figures show that convicted murderers have lower recidivism rates than
those of other 'ex-cons'.
[snip]
MrMateo
<9D54EB238A82F3CD.2EA7B773...@lp.airnews.net>,
I can use any nick or name or whatthehellever I want to. Got a
problem with that, Mitch? Too bad.
MrMateo
<8B3196B06853EF4D.7382CA7D...@lp.airnews.net>,
So what are you saying here? It sounds like you are saying
states that do not have the death penalty have lower murder rates than
those that do. Before providing proof (which I know you will) why don't
you take a look at Texas? We have the DP, plus tougher prison sentences
virtually across the board, and a concealed-carry law. We have also
taken out the garbage in terms of the most infamous, like Graham,
Tucker, McDuff, Faucher, and Beets. (Next on the list: Penry.)
Violent crime (including murder) is on the decrease in the
state of Texas. Sorry, Mitch.
Mitchell Holman
}In article
}<9D54EB238A82F3CD.2EA7B773...@lp.airnews.net>,
} ta2...@airmail.net (Mitchell Holman) wrote:
}> In article <91th3p$h06$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, MrMateo
}<hou...@hotmail.com> wrote:
}> }In article <slrn941int...@gateway.voute.net>,
}> } des...@coughlan.net wrote:
}> }
}> } I can hardly wait for your post-edited response (I guess you are
}> }not man enough to keep a post intact, but then you are not man enough
}> }to do a lot of things, like come down to Texas and say "piggy-eyed,
}pot-
}> }bellied, pickup-driving, rifle-totin', savage-minded little fascist"
}to
}> }someone's face, are you, Mr. CSC?).
}>
}> At least Desmond is "man enough" to post under
}> his own name, unlike some people here, "Mr Mateo".
}
} I can use any nick or name or whatthehellever I want to.
That's right - you can hide behind any handle you
want to. Of course, accusations about others not being
"man enough" look pretty silly coming from someone
afraid to even tell us his name.....
A Planet Visitor
> On 21 Dec 2000 14:53:56 GMT, Charles Trew <db...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > > and the Mexican border, it's almost a dead certainty (if you'll excuse my
> > > choice of words) that they won't be because of these escaped convicts.
>
> > Escaped convicts on the run are about as high risk as any desperado you
> > can name.
>
> Risk means nothing, Charles. What matter are crime figures, and those
> figures show that convicted murderers have lower recidivism rates than
> those of other 'ex-cons'.
>
Why would you keep repeating a mantra which is conclusively
false? Convicted murderers have more than double the recidivism
rate for further murders than those of 'ex-cons.' In cases of
release after conviction of property crimes, the rate for released
murderers is 6 times higher. See my post to you, in this same
thread, 12/19/2000, 12:26 PM. If you need a URL reference
I can provide it, but the numbers just do not lie. 3.07% (3,258)
of all 'ex-cons,' released in 1983 had been incarcerated for
murder... they had a recidivist rate for homicide of 6.6%. The
other 96.9% (over 100,000) of the 'ex-cons,' released for
crimes other than murder had a recidivist rate for homicide
of well under 2%. In fact, the approximately 28,800
convicted of violent offenses other than murder, had a
recidivist rate about 2.5% for homicide, while the rest,
convicted for lesser offenses (burglary, auto theft, etc)
had a recidivist rate of 1.1% for homicide. It continues to
astound me that you would claim a moral 'human rights,'
excuse to oppose the DP, and then distort figures in such
an obvious, and patently devious attempt. That doesn't
say much about your morality, Desmond.
PV
> [snip]
A Planet Visitor
"Mitchell Holman" <ta2...@airmail.net> wrote in message
news:8B3196B06853EF4D.7382CA7D...@lp.airnews.net...
Don't you think we should 'remember' ALL who have been
murdered by escaped murderers? Or should we only
'remember' those who were murdered in states with the
DP?
PV
A Planet Visitor
"Donna Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote in message
news:91ti3l$15pc$1...@news5.isdnet.net...
I'd be interested in hearing your opinion, Donna, on what you
see of the effect of closure for society, rather than the victim's
family. Do you see this as a non-need of society, or does
society's awareness that a murderer lives while an innocent
member of society is dead have a deleterious effect on society.
A lot has been said about how executing a murderer is
destructive to society. Of course, I don't see it that way, but
that's not the point of what I'm after. I'd be interested in
what you feel society needs and deserves in the way of closure,
irrespective of the same old 'we can't violate their human rights,'
or 'we bring ourselves down to their level,' arguments. I'm
speaking in terms of closure for 'society' in the same way that we
might speak of closure for the family of a murder victim.
Many victim's families often speak of 'he/she will never be
able to harm anyone again,' after the execution of the murderer
in their particular case. It seems that victim's families often see
that as more important. They seem more satisfied, and seem
to find better closure, with the awareness of the impossibility of
future victims being claimed by the murderer, rather than the
mere fact of retribution for the murder that was committed.
What do you think society deserves in the way of closure?
And please, kick Earl. I do not want him responding to this
thread, simply because I am not interested in what he has
to say.
PV
St.George
How do we know you're the real Mitchell Holman??
Donna Evleth
--
----------
Dans l'article <xDP06.182045$vc3.31...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "A
Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> a écrit :
>
I shall give a short answer to to your long question. I feel that society
can achieve closure in ways other than eye-for-an-eye executions. I know
you do not believe in Lwop, but I do. And I will continue to do so, as it
seems to work here. I cannot give you any other answer, without repeating
points I have already made in the past ("we bring ourselves down to their
level", for example), which you have asked me not to do.
Donna Evleth
A Planet Visitor
Fair enough... I just wanted your opinion. I was aware it would
conflict with mine. But to me, it's all about opinions.
A Planet Visitor
> Captain's Log, Star Date Mon, 18 Dec 2000 19:21:55 GMT ... Message Coming in
on Subspace from A Planet Visitor, <abc...@abcxyz.com> ...
>
> > > > Texas. The two were joined by 5 other inmates serving time for violent
> > > > crimes. The escape took place several days ago and the police have run
out
> > > > of leads.
>
> > > border.
>
> > Look very closely at what you have written here, Desmond. And
> > then understand why others rightly can call you a 'murderer lover.'
>
> 'Others' might just include you, Drewl, and that little upstart Mateo,
> whose post I shall deal with later on, Planet Visitor. By no stretch
> of the imagination, however, do the intelligent posters on this newsgroup
> consider me a 'murderer lover', unless you count 'loving' every human being
> equally, which I believe is a fundamental duty of all of us.
>
> > You would support further murders by proven murderers in order
> > to assist them in escaping from the U.S. You would call on God
> > to 'guide' them so they will not be captured before reaching Mexico.
> > But you express no concern for new victims they might claim on
> > that journey. I guess you feel God need not concern Himself with
> > those victims. You have surely placed murderer's lives at a higher
> > value than the lives of any new victims.
>
> With all due respect, PV, you're talking through a hole in your arse (or
> 'ass', if you prefer). We have demonstrated to you and to other retention-
> ists time and time again, that the risk of recidivism is lower among
> those convicted of murder, than those convicted of non-lethal offences.
> So in short, if there are any 'new victims' to be had between Huntsville
> choice of words) that they won't be because of these escaped convicts.
>
> victims' mantra, even although the truth has been rammed up your arse
> so often that it's getting embarrassing. You claim that I and other
> abolitionists don't care about the victims, when we both know that the
> victims are dead, and that the death penalty is more to do with satisfying
> a base desire for revenge in the living.
>
> I personally don't want these prisoners to remain free, but (and it is
> a big 'but') if the only alternative is for them to destroyed by the
> state, at the behest of vengeful and shortsighted people like you, then
> yes, I do hope that they make it to Mexico. And God (if He exists) is
> on my side. As is Right.
>
> I have to get to work.
>
Fast forward to today. The escaped convicts today killed a police
officer. The now newly crowned, recidivist murderers (which do
not exist in some abolitionist's eye), are still at large, perhaps
contemplating further murders on their god-guided path to Mexico.
I am a religious man. But let me say if God is guiding them, He (I
use the masculine tense, here) is a God that I do not need, and
that I totally reject. My conception of God is that He created us,
gave us free will, and announced that WE would need to determine
right from wrong, not HIM. Our playground would be the secular
world, and what we did with it, would determine what He felt we
deserved in the Spiritual World he reserved for Himself. To ask
God to guide murderers to freedom, for whatever self-serving
reason, is an abomination, which has now been proven to be
true. And let me clearly state my feelings here. Desmond is
the one who has been proven 'morally bankrupt,' because of
'events' that transpired... actual events. Events that cost
innocent lives. And as for the murderers... may God NOT have
mercy on their souls. Go for it, God. And give them what they
REALLY deserve.
PV
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
news:uU226.129524$58.14...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
Forgive me PV but I am a little lost here. The escaped murderers did not
escape from death row (am I right?).
They committed non-capital murders (am I right?). They were serving term
sentences i.e. not LWOP (am I right?). If I am right where do YOU go from
here? Do all murderers suffer the DP? Is that what all murderers 'REALLY
deserve'? It seems to me that our escaping murderers may caused you more
problems than they have us abolitionists? Respond in 10 or less lines
please.
Charles Trew
> "A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
>> Fast forward to today. The escaped convicts today killed a police
>> officer. The now newly crowned, recidivist murderers (which do
>> not exist in some abolitionist's eye), are still at large, perhaps
>> contemplating further murders on their god-guided path to Mexico.
>
> Forgive me PV but I am a little lost here. The escaped murderers did not
> escape from death row (am I right?).
> They committed non-capital murders (am I right?). They were serving term
> sentences i.e. not LWOP (am I right?). If I am right where do YOU go from
> here? Do all murderers suffer the DP? Is that what all murderers 'REALLY
> deserve'? It seems to me that our escaping murderers may caused you more
> problems than they have us abolitionists? Respond in 10 or less lines
> please.
This incident shows what some of us have been saying all along:
Nothing but an execution can prevent killers from killing and/or
assaulting again.
There are many, many times where this has been proven yet some antis
keep harping about innocents being killed.
Some antis are more worried about hardened killers than they are about
innocent civilians.
Some people are beyond redemption and should not be forgiven.
It doesn't matter whether these dudes were on death row or not, it
shows the reality of the situation in any case.
(I could write more but you wanted 10 lines or less)
("You Haven't Heard The Last Of Us Yet.")
Earl Evleth
--
----------
Dans l'article <92ag9s$6ph$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>, "John Rennie"
<Jo...@rennie2000.greatxscape.net> a écrit :
> Forgive me PV but I am a little lost here. The escaped murderers did not
> escape from death row (am I right?).
> They committed non-capital murders (am I right?). They were serving term
> sentences i.e. not LWOP (am I right?). If I am right where do YOU go from
> here? Do all murderers suffer the DP? Is that what all murderers 'REALLY
> deserve'? It seems to me that our escaping murderers may caused you more
> problems than they have us abolitionists? Respond in 10 or less lines
> please.
That's mean, PV usually posts around 1700 words in a reply, which I estimate
at about 8 double space pages, too long for an article.
Anyway, PV will exploit any item or data without any perspective, so one
never gets an overall view.
What I have been looking for is data on escapes, also the risk of guards
getting killed. The felony police deaths in the US are well known, their
death rates are at 4/100,000, being a Taxi driver has a risk of 18/100,000.
So being a cop is not the most risky job in the US, although the risk is
significant. I have found no hard data on prison guards but on prisoners
themselves it is 8/100,000, which for an adult male population is not bad.
We just had an escape attempt last night at the Santé prison in Paris, by
three men, one of whom was a murderer. They got out of their cells by sawing
the bars (how they got the materials is another issues) but were caught
just outside in the corridor. If an escape occurs it is the fault of the
security system, which has been getting tougher and tougher over the years.
The French prison we visit is considered the Alcatraz of France. The last
escape 1991 did results in the death of a guard, hostages were taken and
the escapees used a truck on site to drive through the prison gate. Now
that method of escape has been made "impossible". but the number
of escapes over a 30 year period is neglible.
Earl
John Rennie
"Charles Trew" <db...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
news:92ahob$nva$1...@freenet9.carleton.ca...
And yet you didn't manage to answer one of my four questions'
Try harder please and stop emoting.
A Planet Visitor
"John Rennie" <Jo...@rennie2000.greatxscape.net> wrote in message
news:92ag9s$6ph$1...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
It was not I who exclaimed that "God should guide them to Mexico."
Do not lose sight of this in my response to Desmond. Two lines.
PV
John Rennie
Snipped
>
. And as for the murderers... may God NOT have
> > > mercy on their souls. Go for it, God. And give them what they
> > > REALLY deserve.
> > >
> > > PV
> >
> > Forgive me PV but I am a little lost here. The escaped murderers did
not
> > escape from death row (am I right?).
> > They committed non-capital murders (am I right?). They were serving
term
> > sentences i.e. not LWOP (am I right?). If I am right where do YOU go
from
> > here? Do all murderers suffer the DP? Is that what all murderers
'REALLY
> > deserve'? It seems to me that our escaping murderers may caused you
more
> > problems than they have us abolitionists? Respond in 10 or less
lines
> > please.
> >
>
> It was not I who exclaimed that "God should guide them to Mexico."
> Do not lose sight of this in my response to Desmond. Two lines.
>
> PV
It was you that implored your deity to give them "what they REALLY deserve".
Now I simply want to know from you what that is? Does it mean that all
10000 or so who commit murders annually should be executed? Now, of
course, I know that you don't mean that. However when you start emoting
instead of reasoning, you appear to be meaning just that.
A Planet Visitor
to guide them to Mexico. This I believe is not only immoral, illogical
and illegal... but just plain stupid. Since this has now been shown to
be true, and to be all of the above, I feel I have the right to assert that
God should now consider an appropriate punishment in His world.
Yes, He should give them what they REALLY deserve in His world.
We need to give them what they REALLY deserve in ours.
Now as to the 4 questions you posed. If you will pose them in
another thread, or outside of the discussion of Desmond's
original comment, I will certainly respond. But my particular
contribution to this part of this thread needs to stay on the fact
that Desmond asked for God's help to slay a policeman. It's
as simple as that. It is not the first time that Desmond should
rue his words. He may not do so, but this does not mean he
SHOULD not do so.
And I'm afraid that your stipulation of less than 10 lines is quite
unreasonable, unless you feel the concept of the DP is not
complex, and can be trivialized in 'sound-bites.'
PV
Charles Trew
> "Charles Trew" <db...@FreeNet.Carleton.CA> wrote in message
>> > Forgive me PV but I am a little lost here. The escaped murderers did
Yes I did, I said it doesn't matter whether the guys were on death
row or not.
Your questions are irrelevant.
You pick and chosse what you respond to as well.
Why should I answer irrelevant questions?
Charles Trew
> --
<snip>
> escape 1991 did results in the death of a guard, hostages were taken and
> the escapees used a truck on site to drive through the prison gate. Now
> that method of escape has been made "impossible". but the number
> of escapes over a 30 year period is neglible.
Translation:
"I can live with the risk of escape because the chances are so slim it
does not matter on a statistical basis."
Now I say:
"I can live with the risk of an innocent being executed because the
chances are so slim it does not matter on a statistical basis."
A Planet Visitor
Exactly my sentiments. A plethora of real examples of those
murderers who have escaped to murder again exists. Meanwhile,
those who oppose the DP, would over and over display a few paltry
possibilities of examples of an innocent being executed. The obvious
bias on the part of those unswerving and irrational retentionists, who
maintain that this examination has no validity, is astounding to me.
They continue to believe that a Justice System, which they recognize
is imperfect because of the possibility of the execution of an
innocent, would suddenly become perfect in its incarceration
practices if the DP were eliminated.
PV