International Court of Justice-The US and the Vienna Convention violation
Evleth
27 September 2000 - Press Communique 2000/30
LaGrand Case (Germany v. United States of America)
The Court will hold public hearings from Monday 13 to Friday 17
November 2000
THE HAGUE, 27 September 2000.
The International Court of Justice (ICJ), the principal judicial organ of
the United Nations, will hold public hearings in the LaGrand Case
(Germany v. United States of America) from Monday 13 to Friday 17
November 2000 at the Peace Palace in The Hague, seat of the Court.
The following is a hearing on the violation by the United States of
the 1963 Vienna convention. Note that the Us has, historically,
received two condemnations before this same court, one previous on
on the Vienna Convention. The other dealt with the CIAs illegal mining of
the Nicaraga harbors in the Contra days.
****************************************************************************
The program of the hearings is as follows:
First round of oral arguments
Monday 13 November 2000: Germany
Tuesday 14 November 2000: United States of America
The hearings will be held from 10 a.m. to 1 p.m. and from 3 to 6 p.m.
Second round of oral arguments
Thursday 16 November 2000: Germany
Friday 17 November 2000: United States of America
Thursday's hearing will take place from 10 a.m. to 1 p.m.; Friday's will
be held in the afternoon at a time to be set at a later stage.
History of the proceedings
On 2 March 1999 Germany filed in the Registry an Application instituting
proceedings for violations of the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations of
24 April 1963 allegedly committed by the United States of America with
respect to the case of Karl and Walter LaGrand, two German nationals
sentenced to death by the authorities of the State of Arizona for the murder
of a bank manager in 1982. Karl LaGrand, 35, had been executed on 24
February 1999.
In its Application Germany maintained that the two brothers had been
arrested, tried and sentenced to death without being advised of their rights
to consular assistance, as required by the Vienna Convention. It contended
that it was only in 1992, when all legal avenues had been exhausted, that
the German consular officers were made aware, not by the authorities of the
State of Arizona, but by the detainees themselves, of the case in
question.Germany added that the failure to provide the required notification
precluded it from protecting its nationals' interest in the United States.
Accordingly, Germany asked the Court to adjudge and declare that the United
States had violated its international legal obligations under the Vienna
Convention, that the United States should provide reparation, in the form of
compensation and satisfaction, for the execution of Karl LaGrand and that it
should restore the status quo ante in the case of Walter LaGrand, that is
re-establish the situation that existed before his detention and sentencing
in violation of the United States' international legal obligations. Germany
also requested the Court to declare that the United States should provide
Germany a guarantee of the non-repetition of the illegal acts. As a basis
for the Court's jurisdiction, Germany invoked Article I of the Vienna
Convention's Optional Protocol Concerning the Compulsory Settlement of
Disputes.
On the same day Germany also filed a request for provisional measures in
order to obtain a postponement of the execution of Walter LaGrand, aged 37.
In an Order dated 3 March 1999, which was adopted unanimously, the Court,
ruling ex officio in view of the urgency of the case, called on the United
States to "take all measures at its disposal" to ensure that Walter LaGrand
was not executed pending a final decision in the proceedings instituted by
Germany. The Court also requested the Government of the United States to
inform it of all the measures taken in implementation thereof.
By a letter of 8 March 1999, the Legal Counsellor of the Embassy of the
United States in The Hague informed the Court that on 3 March 1999, the
Department of State had transmitted to the Governor of Arizona a copy of the
Court's Order. On the same day and after the Supreme Court of the United
States had issued orders disposing of the various motions and petitions
before it related to the case of Mr. Walter LaGrand, he was executed.
By Order of 5 March 1999, the Court fixed 16 September 1999 as the
time-limit for the filing of a Memorial by Germany and 27 March 2000 as the
time-limit for the filing of a Counter-Memorial by the United States. Those
pleadings were filed within the prescribed time-limits.
___________
NOTE TO THE PRESS
1. The public hearings will be held in the Great Hall of Justice of the
Peace Palace in The Hague, Netherlands. Mobile telephones and beepers are
allowed in the courtroom provided they are turned off or set on silent mode.
Any offending device will be temporarily retained.
2. Members of the Press will be entitled to attend on presentation of a
press card. The tables reserved for them are situated on the far left of
the public entrance of the courtroom.
3. Photographs may be taken for a few minutes at the opening and at the end
of the sittings. Television crews may film, but advance notice should be
given to the Information Department (see paragraph 7).
4. In the Press Room, located on the ground floor of the Peace Palace (Room
5), the Court's proceedings will be relayed through a loudspeaker.
5. The verbatim records of the public sittings will be published daily on
the Court's website (http://www.icj-cij.org).
6. Members of the Press who wish to make telephone calls may use the phone
located in the Press Room for collect calls or the public telephones in the
Post Office in the basement of the Peace Palace.
7. Mr. Arthur Witteveen, First Secretary of the Court (tel: + 31 70 302
2336), and Mrs. Laurence Blairon, Information Officer (tel: + 31 70 302
2337), are available to deal with any requests for information and for
making arrangements for television coverage.
Richard Jackson
"Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote:
Questions:
Did either of te Brothers ever make it known they were German citizens,
and if so, were they given the opportunity, to contact their embassy?
Second question: Die either Brother hire a lawyer or did they use
court appointed lawyers.
Third and final question: Did either Brother let their lawyers know
they were German citizens? If so, why didn't their lawyers notify the
embassy?
In the US, it is the responsibility of the defendant to inform the
authorities of such things and their right to choose to contact or not
contact their embassy. If they were informed of that right and chose
not to contact their emassy, I am not sure it is the job of the police
or local police to do so. I believe it is the same in other nations as
well, including Germany, isn't it?
--
Richard Jackson
<snip of article to shorten post>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Evleth
----------
Dans l'article <8r2lor$7rg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Richard Jackson
<ri...@my-deja.com> a écrit :
> I can only respond to the first question. Another death row inmate in Arizona
tells me that the brothers did in fact ask to call the German Consular
Officials when they were arrested, but they were denied this right. I do
not know what the status of their lawyers was, or what the lawyers did about
the Embassy, although this latter should have made no difference if the
brothers themselves asked, and were turned down.
Donna Evleth
Evleth
> Did either of te Brothers ever make it known they were German citizens,
> and if so, were they given the opportunity, to contact their embassy?
>
> Second question: Die either Brother hire a lawyer or did they use
> court appointed lawyers.
>
> Third and final question: Did either Brother let their lawyers know
> they were German citizens? If so, why didn't their lawyers notify the
> embassy?
>
> In the US, it is the responsibility of the defendant to inform the
> authorities of such things and their right to choose to contact or not
> contact their embassy. If they were informed of that right and chose
> not to contact their emassy, I am not sure it is the job of the police
> or local police to do so. I believe it is the same in other nations as
> well, including Germany, isn't it?
The important passage in in article 36 of the 1963 Vienna Convention, signed
by the US and approved by the US Senate and Written into individual consular
agreements. It states that the arresting nation must tell the nation of the
person arresting "without delay" of the arrest of their citizen.
The person arrested may not even know of their "rights, but that does not
relieve the arresting nation of informing that person. Although specific
consular agreements do say that the arrested person, once informed, can
request that their embassy NOT be informed, that modification is not in
article 36. It is my understanding that the LeGrand brotherw did not know
of their rights nor were they informed.
I do not know if their German nationality was known to the authorities, but
generally backgrounds are quickly gathered on arrested individuals. I would
presume it was known.
What is known is that generally, Article 36 has been ignored by most of the
states since local prosecutors did not know of its existence!
In a parallel case we have dealt with personally, an American citizen was
arrested in France (Paris) on drug charges (although he had no drugs he was
presumed associated with people who, not in his presence had been arrested
with drugs). He requested immediately that the American Embassy be contacted
and that he have a visit with a lawyer. He refused to answer any questions.
Neither of these requests were respected. He was held in solitary
confinement for 4 days, no access to anybody including a phone. At the end
of the four day period during his final grilling he was presented with a
paper written in French (he neither read or spoke French) and told that in
order to have a lawyer he would have to sign it. The paper was short but
what he did not know that in a few of the sentences on the document he
recognized the facts with regard to the charges against him, this
constituted a confession.
Prosecutors already have immense powers with regard to the accused. But to
also deny a foreigner, who may speak English not at all or poorly, the right
to advice from a representative of his government can lead to conviction as
it did in our case, the man got 18 years in prison. He is serving his 6th
year right now. Communications with the American Government, including the
Secretary of State protesting violation of article 36 have gone unanswered.
That it real life with regard to Article 36.
Evleth
> "Evleth"
I should explain that there are two Evleths, my wife reponded to some of the
questions and I to the others. We help a person on death row in Arizona
and my wife remember that in this man's book (she and another person are
currently editing it) he mentions the LeGrand brothers and their asking for
Embassy intervention. I did not remember that. Of course they may have lied
and that is why it is up to the authorities to informed the Embassy or,
document at the time that a particular person has refused intervention.
The "word" of a condemned murderer is suspect, but so is that of the police
or prosecutor who later claims, without documentation from the period, that
"oh yes, we informmed in and he refused". A lot of people will cover their
ass after the fact. Article 36 ties to avoid wessel outs in imposing
notification.
Sharpjfa
brought up on appeal in time. The answer is no. The Vienna Convention is
specific that the rules of the convention will be enforced within the law of
the taking juristiction. This appellate issue was brought forward to alte.
Furthermore, we have something called harmless error, meaning that when error
is made an assesment as to its likely effect on the verdict and sentence. If
the court finds it reasonalble that such error had no effect, then the case
will not be overturned. I suspect both issues will be part of the US's
presentation and that both issues will prevail, in the US's favor.
sharp Justice For All http://www.jfa.net/
http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/ http://www.murdervictims.com/
Overwhelmingly, the US criminal justice system benefits criminals, dishonors
victims and contributes to future victimizations.
Old...@usa.net
atrocities they and there wonderful leader Adolph have committed against
humanity around the European country side.
Richard Jackson
"Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote:
>
>
> ----------
> Dans l'article <8r2lor$7rg$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, Richard Jackson
> <ri...@my-deja.com> a écrit :
>
> > In article <8r09gr$2dnl$1...@news6.isdnet.net>,
> > "Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Questions:
> >
citizens,
> > and if so, were they given the opportunity, to contact their
embassy?
> >
> > Second question: Die either Brother hire a lawyer or did they use
> > court appointed lawyers.
> >
> > Third and final question: Did either Brother let their lawyers know
> > they were German citizens? If so, why didn't their lawyers notify
the
> > embassy?
> >
> > In the US, it is the responsibility of the defendant to inform the
> > authorities of such things and their right to choose to contact or
not
> > contact their embassy. If they were informed of that right and
chose
> > not to contact their emassy, I am not sure it is the job of the
police
> > or local police to do so. I believe it is the same in other nations
as
> > well, including Germany, isn't it?
> >
> > Richard Jackson
> >
> >
> > I can only respond to the first question. Another death row inmate
in Arizona
> tells me that the brothers did in fact ask to call the German Consular
> Officials when they were arrested, but they were denied this right. I
do
> not know what the status of their lawyers was, or what the lawyers did
about
> the Embassy, although this latter should have made no difference if
the
> brothers themselves asked, and were turned down.
>
> Donna Evleth
>
Another Death Row inmate? he was present at the arrest and detention of
the brothers, or was he simply repeating what he was told? Direct
witnessing is one thing, hearsay another.
--
Richard Jackson
Evleth
> Just who the fuck is Germany to question any country, with the amount of
> atrocities they and there wonderful leader Adolph have committed against
> humanity around the European country side.
We are talking now, not 60 years ago. At the time, a number of Germans were
tried and executed as a result of the decisions at Nuremburg, Justice had
its day.
And Now?
The US and other countries signed a treaty in 1963, the question revolves
around the violation of that treaty. The previous complaint on article 36
was filled by Argentina. The court sided with Argentina.
Evleth
> Another Death Row inmate? he was present at the arrest and detention of
> the brothers, or was he simply repeating what he was told? Direct
> witnessing is one thing, hearsay another.
Answering for Donna-this is Earl.
According to the treaty the responsibility for notification is incumbant
on the arresting nation. This means they have to document it.
The procedure for doing so should be somewhat like the Miranda rights,
the person is informed and signs a document acknowledging having been
informed.
Obviously one can not trust the hearsay statements of not only another
death row inmate but the inmate who claims later to not being informed.
To this list of people one can not trust are the police and the
prosecution. If they make a procedural error they may lie later
to cover their asses. It has occurred. They say, without proof,
"Of course we informed him and he refused". This is why procedures are
set up to establish the documentation at the time. Better yet would be a
video tape of the person being interviewed. This is now common procedure in
the US although some departments (like the NY police) are resisting this
intrusion on their way of doing things. This issue has recently arisen in
France, where the garde à vue procedure is under progressive attack by
"liberals" (the word has a different meaning in France so I use it in the
American sense). The police and even the Minister of the Interior strongly
opposed any video or audio taping of suspect interviews by the police. Some
of the police unions opposed it as calling into question the "honor" of the
police. Obviously, the French police are sometimes accused of using 3rd
degree methods, some of the accusations later shown to be true. Video
tapping avoids a lot of false accusations of mistreatment. Some police in
the US recognize this and have welcomed video tapping.
The non-respect of Article 36 was general in the US because most people did
not know about it. There is also an attitude problem, America has many areas
which are insular and pyschologically isolated from the outside world. The
idea that a foreigner, accused of a crime, would have special rights that
other accused do not is unacceptable to the national mentality. Yet
Americans will sometimes assume, when out of the country, that they have
special rights. It is the function of the Embassy officials in foreign
countries to correct that impression and tell "them" (foreigners in America
and Americans overseas) what rights they have and give them a list of local
lawyers and help to defend themselves. That is why the treaty was created.
It leveled the playing field.
The final question is whether such intervention is really necessary? Our
experience says yes, since often foreigners do not speak the language of the
country they are arrested in. In this case, they are the equivalent of a
mentally handicapped person, confused and not knowing how to defend
themselves and easily set up for prosecutors to expoit for an easy
conviction. Even if charged with capital murder, a good defense can present
enough countervailing power to force a prosecutor to offer (in the US) a
plea bargain down to a non-capital sentence. So, application of the
treaty in its strictest sense may save the life of the accused. It also
creates professional procedures, when followed increase the credibility of
the whole process. The scandal in Illinois is due to a lack of professional
behavior, prosecutorial misconduct which does not occur to the same extent
in other jurisdictions in the USA.
Sloppy procedures produce sloppy results.
Richard Jackson
"Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote:
>
> > Another Death Row inmate? he was present at the arrest and
detention of
> > the brothers, or was he simply repeating what he was told? Direct
> > witnessing is one thing, hearsay another.
>
All of which is still predicated upon the fact that the accused:made it
known they were citizens of Germany. The largest question in my mind is
why, after they had legal representation, did their lawyer or lawyers
not contact their embassy? Lawyers are well aware of this requirement,
and even the least competent lawyer would normally take this step.
Unless they were attempting to set up a mistrial at a later date.
Evleth
> Furthermore, we have something called harmless error,
And there is the crunch, how to determine of the error in harmless.
In the case we dealt with the error results in a man signing a document
in a language he did not understand with the understanding that he
would finally get a lawyer that he had been asking for to
tell him what was going on. That document was his confession and cited
as such in his trial.
In the US, the death penalty is sought subject to a decision of the
prosecuting district attorney who is given great lattitude to
down grade the charges to a non-capital murder charge. Few of the total
murders committed in the country (1-2%) result in a death penalty trial
and a good lawyer can avoid the worse. But the foreign national may be
equivalent to the mentally handicapped person and therefore an easy set up
for the district attorney. Therefore, the probably rises in these cases that
a strong representation from the foreigners Embassy will lead to a non-death
penalty charge. The error is not harmless in this case and mortal.
This above alternative will never show up in the procedure nor in the trial,
so it goes unreognized. The error has also been repetitive since some 70
foreign nationals are on death row for whom it is claimed that they
never had their treat rights respected.
Sharpjfa
>From: "Evleth" dev...@noos.fr
>Date: 10/1/00 9:43 AM EST
>Message-id: <8r7eoq$1gn1$1...@news5.isdnet.net>
>
>
>> Furthermore, we have something called harmless error,
>
>And there is the crunch, how to determine of the error in harmless.
>
>In the case we dealt with the error results in a man signing a document
>in a language he did not understand with the understanding that he
>would finally get a lawyer that he had been asking for to
>tell him what was going on. That document was his confession and cited
>as such in his trial.
>
>In the US, the death penalty is sought subject to a decision of the
>prosecuting district attorney who is given great lattitude to
>down grade the charges to a non-capital murder charge. Few of the total
>murders committed in the country (1-2%) result in a death penalty trial
>and a good lawyer can avoid the worse. But the foreign national may be
>equivalent to the mentally handicapped person and therefore an easy set up
>for the district attorney. Therefore, the probably rises in these cases that
>a strong representation from the foreigners Embassy will lead to a non-death
>penalty charge. The error is not harmless in this case and mortal.
that is a matter of legal opinion and will be reviewed in the light of US law,
as prescribed by the VC. Furthermore, it may not be an issue, because the
appellate issue was brought up too late, making any further issues not relevent
as per US law, which previails according to the VC.
>This above alternative will never show up in the procedure nor in the trial,
>so it goes unreognized. The error has also been repetitive since some 70
>foreign nationals are on death row for whom it is claimed that they
>never had their treat rights respected.
such will be reviewed within the realm of appellate timing and harmless error,
as well as other issues.
St.George
"Richard Jackson" <ri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8r64dp$oo8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Interesting, Richard - you seem to be questioning the word of a convict!
Having admitted recently that you'd 'never met an execution that you didn't
like', the word of criminals was evidently quite good enough for you when it
came to basing murder convictions and death sentences on uncorroborated
'jailhouse confessions' to cellmates.
Even when those big-eared cellmates were lucky enough to receive a
substantial sentence-reducing plea bargain in exchange for such self-serving
testimony, you, and other retentionists, could seemingly scarcely wait to
proclaim these convicts' honesty and veracity from the rooftops....
Richard Jackson
Two different things alltogether Mark. In murder cases, the testamony
of a cellmate that the defendant bragged to him about committing a
murder is direct knowledge of an admission of guilt by another convict.
In this case, if the convict was in prison at the time of the crime, or
was not present when the brothers were interviewed, he has no way of
testifying that they were not informed of their rights and declined to
call their embassy at that time. All such a person could say if he
was not present is hearsay that the clients said they were not allowed
to notify their embassy. He can state the fact that they claimed not to
have been notified, but unless he was present at the arrest,
interrigation, booking, or in a cell next to them in the police station,
he cannot state absolutely that they were not. If he did, it would be
very easy for a good prosecutor to impeach such and totally discredit
the witness in the eyes of the jury or a judge.
Richard Jackson
The question is, did he have first hand knowledge of this, or was he
reporting something the Brothers told him later in prison? If he was
present as the brothers cam in the police station, were booked,
interrigated, or in their cell block in jail when they were asking to
call their embassy or have their embassy called, he can testify that he
saw and heard that happen. If he is just repeating what they told him
on death row, he has no direct knowledge that the event actually
occurred. People on death row, like anywhere else in prison, will
occasionally lie to attempt to gain a legal advantage or simply revenge
on the system which is attemting to take their life.
Remember Ricky McGinn? He was guilty as sin, and his last DNA test
confirmed it. He never admitted guilt to the last, although even the
most ardent abolitionist should, if a reasonable intelligent person,
conclude from the evidence that he was not wrongfully convicted. This
is the type of personality we are dealing with when you deal with
criminals. You cannot forget that for a moment.
Richard Jackson
"Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote:
>
>
> > Did either of te Brothers ever make it known they were German
citizens,
> > and if so, were they given the opportunity, to contact their
embassy?
> >
> > Second question: Die either Brother hire a lawyer or did they use
> > court appointed lawyers.
> >
> > Third and final question: Did either Brother let their lawyers know
> > they were German citizens? If so, why didn't their lawyers notify
the
> > embassy?
> >
> > In the US, it is the responsibility of the defendant to inform the
> > authorities of such things and their right to choose to contact or
not
> > contact their embassy. If they were informed of that right and
chose
> > not to contact their emassy, I am not sure it is the job of the
police
> > or local police to do so. I believe it is the same in other nations
as
> > well, including Germany, isn't it?
>
signed
> by the US and approved by the US Senate and Written into individual
consular
> agreements. It states that the arresting nation must tell the nation
of the
> person arresting "without delay" of the arrest of their citizen.
>
If the person claims citizenship in another country. There has been
nothing so far indicating this was claimed by the brothers other than
their own word.
> The person arrested may not even know of their "rights, but that does
not
> relieve the arresting nation of informing that person. Although
specific
> consular agreements do say that the arrested person, once informed,
can
> request that their embassy NOT be informed, that modification is not
in
> article 36. It is my understanding that the LeGrand brotherw did not
know
> of their rights nor were they informed.
>
They may have been stupid as well as criminals. I knew of this right
the first time I went out of country at the age of sixteen. Had I been
in trouble in a different nation, my first step would have been to
inform the police of my US citizenship and asked to have my embassy or
counsulate informed.
> I do not know if their German nationality was known to the
authorities, but
> generally backgrounds are quickly gathered on arrested individuals. I
would
> presume it was known.
>
You presume? It is equally sound to presume they did not know. How
would you know if you arrested someone and they would not cooperate in
giving the necessarry information?
> What is known is that generally, Article 36 has been ignored by most
of the
> states since local prosecutors did not know of its existence!
>
Again, a presumption.
> In a parallel case we have dealt with personally, an American citizen
was
> arrested in France (Paris) on drug charges (although he had no drugs
he was
> presumed associated with people who, not in his presence had been
arrested
> with drugs). He requested immediately that the American Embassy be
contacted
> and that he have a visit with a lawyer. He refused to answer any
questions.
> Neither of these requests were respected. He was held in solitary
> confinement for 4 days, no access to anybody including a phone. At the
end
> of the four day period during his final grilling he was presented with
a
> paper written in French (he neither read or spoke French) and told
that in
> order to have a lawyer he would have to sign it. The paper was short
but
> what he did not know that in a few of the sentences on the document he
> recognized the facts with regard to the charges against him, this
> constituted a confession.
>
So we know that the police in France do illegal things.
> Prosecutors already have immense powers with regard to the accused.
But to
> also deny a foreigner, who may speak English not at all or poorly, the
right
> to advice from a representative of his government can lead to
conviction as
> it did in our case, the man got 18 years in prison. He is serving his
6th
> year right now. Communications with the American Government, including
the
> Secretary of State protesting violation of article 36 have gone
unanswered.
>
So what else is new? French arrogance is one reason I have little love
for that nation and many of its people.
> That it real life with regard to Article 36.
>
>
Areas which deal with a lot of immigrants and foreign visitors are well
versed in the rights of foreign nationals. The South Rim of the Grand
Canyon, for example probably has as many foreign tourists as native born
ones during the summer. You can bet that both the park rangers and the
local police know of this treaty and the requirement.
There are many variable in this case. The major variable is if the
brothers informed the police of their nationality or not or if the
police had any way of knowing. Because someone might speak English with
an accent does not make them a foreign national. My wife's grandfather
spoke with a fairly discernable German accent until the day he died at
the age of 84. He spoke no English when he came here in 1905 at the age
of sixteen. He had been a US naturalized citizen for well over half a
century when he died.
Evleth
> So what else is new? French arrogance is one reason I have little love
> for that nation and many of its people.
The objection I was raising was the lack of action on the part of the
the department of State.
The arrogance of France is at the level of the American.
We have spent a long time in both countries, and of the
two we judge the US as more generally arrogant and ethnocentric than the
French. Why? Because France exists in a European community, the US is most
isolated. An educated French person has to speak other European languages
and know about their culture, doubly important since France receives more
foreign tourists than any nation of the world. One of the last bastions of
cultural isolationism in France, however, is in their legal system, it is
archaic. It is also very conservative by tradition and resists change.
Basically, in not having a product to sell, they don`t have to adjust.
The American system is more isidious in having creating a prison industrial
complex which imprisons fromp 6 to 10 times more per capita than any
European penal system. A monster has been created, which includes the death
penalty and supermax prisons.
Jürgen
Old...@USA.net schrieb:
> Just who the fuck is Germany to question any country, with the amount of
> atrocities they and there wonderful leader Adolph have committed against
> humanity around the European country side.
>
Did you ever ask what lead Germany into this catastrophy ?
(Hint: Every jerk, not usually german, is pleased to get to know he and his race,
nation or whatever to be the superior)
J. (from Germany)
JIGSAW1695
Date: 10/5/00 9:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <39DC846E...@t-online.de>
Old...@USA.net schrieb:
> Just who the fuck is Germany to question any country, with the amount of
> atrocities they and there wonderful leader Adolph have committed against
> humanity around the European country side.
>
Did you ever ask what lead Germany into this catastrophy ?
J. (from Germany)
================================
Offhand, I would say the Treaty of Versailles (Sp?) laid the ground work, and
then the failure of the League of Nations inability to prevent the rearmament
of Germany because of internal inconflict.
JIgsaw
Evleth
> Did you ever ask what lead Germany into this catastrophy ?
Of course it is not just Germany, the situation arose in 1998 with
the executions of some Latin Americans. Basically, the US has
already ignored twice before decisions of the International Court
and those Americans who think that is OK should know what decisions
were ignored.
Do Americans know? Or is ignorance bliss.
Dave Proctor
news:8ridlv$2p94$1...@news5.isdnet.net...
>
> > Did you ever ask what lead Germany into this catastrophy ?
>
> Of course it is not just Germany, the situation arose in 1998 with
> the executions of some Latin Americans. Basically, the US has
> already ignored twice before decisions of the International Court
> and those Americans who think that is OK should know what decisions
> were ignored.
You can bet your last dollar that the United States will be screaming that
other countries should respect the Courts decision if and when they bring
down a ruling favourable to the US.
Dave
Richard Jackson
"Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote:
>
> > So what else is new? French arrogance is one reason I have little
love
> > for that nation and many of its people.
>
> the department of State.
>
> The arrogance of France is at the level of the American.
>
> We have spent a long time in both countries, and of the
> two we judge the US as more generally arrogant and ethnocentric than
the
> French. Why? Because France exists in a European community,
The French have tried to control Europe for some time. With the
"Little Corporal" they were successful for a while, at least until he
got overextended and out-generaled. Now, they would attempt to do so
through the EU. It's too bad the Euro keeps losing ground wlhen
compared to the poor barbaric US Dollar.
the US is
most
> isolated. An educated French person has to speak other European
languages
> and know about their culture, doubly important since France receives
more
> foreign tourists than any nation of the world.
Not this one, I assure you. Were I offered a free trip to France, I
would rather pay for one to Spain. I find California wines every bit as
good at a much better price than French, I find the upper class
Frenchman arrogant and the lower classes churlish. Both the women and
the scenery are overrated. In fact, the only thing I found about France
to be equal to other, less overrated parts of Europe is the cooking.
That is supurb..
One of the last
bastions of
> cultural isolationism in France, however, is in their legal system, it
is
> archaic. It is also very conservative by tradition and resists change.
> Basically, in not having a product to sell, they don`t have to adjust.
> The American system is more isidious in having creating a prison
industrial
> complex which imprisons fromp 6 to 10 times more per capita than any
> European penal system. A monster has been created, which includes the
death
> penalty and supermax prisons.
>
Agreed. It is, however, our monster. We will change it when we desire
to, just as the French will change their system. Neither will sway to
outside pressure.
Dave Proctor
> In article <8rd1o2$17hh$1...@news4.isdnet.net>,
> "Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote:
> >
> > > So what else is new? French arrogance is one reason I have little
> love
> > > for that nation and many of its people.
> >
> > The objection I was raising was the lack of action on the part of the
> > the department of State.
> >
> > The arrogance of France is at the level of the American.
> >
> > We have spent a long time in both countries, and of the
> > two we judge the US as more generally arrogant and ethnocentric than
> the
> > French. Why? Because France exists in a European community,
I would disagree with this - I have been to both countries, and have found
the French to be arrogant to the extreme. They do not take kindly to you if
you do not know French, and are even worse if you try and use bumbling
French from a guidebook (and I am talking about those in the tourist trade,
who you would expect to understand the language of the people they were
catering to - much like Japanese is a pre-requisite for anyone wanting to
enter the tourism industry here in Australia).
Americans, on the other hand, go out of their way to help and assist you,
once they learn you are a tourist. It is almost as if they would be
personally wounded if you were to leave with a bad impression of their
country.
> The French have tried to control Europe for some time. With the
> "Little Corporal" they were successful for a while, at least until he
> got overextended and out-generaled. Now, they would attempt to do so
> through the EU. It's too bad the Euro keeps losing ground wlhen
> compared to the poor barbaric US Dollar.
I think both countries are equally as bad when it comes to trying to run the
world.
> the US is
> most
> > isolated. An educated French person has to speak other European
> languages
> > and know about their culture, doubly important since France receives
> more
> > foreign tourists than any nation of the world.
>
> Not this one, I assure you. Were I offered a free trip to France, I
> would rather pay for one to Spain. I find California wines every bit as
> good at a much better price than French,
You should try Australian wines then Richard.
> I find the upper class
> Frenchman arrogant and the lower classes churlish. Both the women and
> the scenery are overrated. In fact, the only thing I found about France
> to be equal to other, less overrated parts of Europe is the cooking.
> That is supurb..
Agree again, with every point in that paragraph.
> One of the last
> bastions of
> > cultural isolationism in France, however, is in their legal system, it
> is
> > archaic. It is also very conservative by tradition and resists change.
> > Basically, in not having a product to sell, they don`t have to adjust.
>
> > The American system is more isidious in having creating a prison
> industrial
> > complex which imprisons fromp 6 to 10 times more per capita than any
> > European penal system. A monster has been created, which includes the
> death
> > penalty and supermax prisons.
> >
>
> Agreed. It is, however, our monster. We will change it when we desire
> to, just as the French will change their system. Neither will sway to
> outside pressure.
Although the United States would like other countries to change their legal
systems, due to American disgust at what is (rightly) seen as a lack of
process, no rights for the accused, etc. Do as I say, not do as I do,
basically.
Dave
S Moir
> would rather pay for one to Spain. I find California wines every bit as
> good at a much better price than French, I find the upper class
> Frenchman arrogant and the lower classes churlish. Both the women and
> the scenery are overrated. In fact, the only thing I found about France
> to be equal to other, less overrated parts of Europe is the cooking.
> That is supurb..
>
> Richard Jackson
>
====================
You like french cooking Richard?
What is it about french cuisine that impresses people so much?
It is absolutely bloody awful- it looks very artistic, but there is seldom
enough on the plate to feed a mouse, and it can often turn out to be garden
pests or small amphibians-yeuch.
Give me a steak any day- the whole point of eating is not to feel hungry
afterwards.
Shona
Desmond Coughlan
> > Not this one, I assure you. Were I offered a free trip to France, I
> > would rather pay for one to Spain. I find California wines every bit as
> > good at a much better price than French, I find the upper class
> > Frenchman arrogant and the lower classes churlish. Both the women and
> > the scenery are overrated. In fact, the only thing I found about France
> > to be equal to other, less overrated parts of Europe is the cooking.
> > That is supurb..
> You like french cooking Richard?
> What is it about french cuisine that impresses people so much?
> It is absolutely bloody awful- it looks very artistic, but there is seldom
> enough on the plate to feed a mouse, and it can often turn out to be garden
> pests or small amphibians-yeuch.
> Give me a steak any day- the whole point of eating is not to feel hungry
> afterwards.
You're equating 'nouvelle cuisine', with French cuisine, Shona. They are
not (necessarily) the same thing.
It is generally accepted that there are three Great Cuisines: Indian, Chinese,
and ... French. French cuisine is among the best on the planet, and (contrary
to Little Englander prejudices) the French very, _very_ rarely eat frogs' legs.
I've eaten them once, and they taste a little bit like chicken, but it's a rare
occurence when the French eat them. Besides, once you've made the decision to
eat meat, what does it matter if the animal on your plate is a cow, a pig, or a
frog ? Precious squeamishness is nothing more than hypocrisy, for if you're
ready to eat a cow, then you should be ready to at least accept that others want
to eat a frog, or a dog, or a cat.
--
**********************************************************************
* Desmond Coughlan Network Engineer Forum des Images Paris *
* dcou...@vdp.fr http://www.forumdesimages.net/ (01) 44.76.62.29 *
* PGP Public Key: http://www.coughlan.net/desmond/pgp/pubring.pkr *
**********************************************************************
Richard Jackson
"S Moir" <smsc...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> "Richard Jackson" <ri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8rjpe1> >
> >
> > would rather pay for one to Spain. I find California wines every
bit as
> > good at a much better price than French, I find the upper class
> > Frenchman arrogant and the lower classes churlish. Both the women
and
> > the scenery are overrated. In fact, the only thing I found about
France
> > to be equal to other, less overrated parts of Europe is the cooking.
> > That is supurb..
> >
> > Richard Jackson
> >
> ====================
>
> You like french cooking Richard?
> What is it about french cuisine that impresses people so much?
> It is absolutely bloody awful- it looks very artistic, but there is
seldom
> enough on the plate to feed a mouse, and it can often turn out to be
garden
> pests or small amphibians-yeuch.
> Give me a steak any day- the whole point of eating is not to feel
hungry
> afterwards.
>
>
>
The sauces are intense. Besides, what's wrong with snails? I happen to
fancy them quite a lot. Please note that I said the cooking was equal
to, not better than.
I too like a good steak, but it isn't a difficult feat to cook one
properly. If I had to choose any cuisine as a favorite, I like German
food. That's just because of my heritage and upbringing, I suspect, but
I like it!
Richard Jackson
It does depend on where you visit and who you meet. Like any nation,
we have our share of snobs who are cold and unhelpful. We also have a
great meny friendly people.
> > The French have tried to control Europe for some time. With the
> > "Little Corporal" they were successful for a while, at least until
he
> > got overextended and out-generaled. Now, they would attempt to do
so
> > through the EU. It's too bad the Euro keeps losing ground wlhen
> > compared to the poor barbaric US Dollar.
>
> I think both countries are equally as bad when it comes to trying to
run the
> world.
>
We're better at it for the most part. (the attempt, not the running)
<grin>
> > the US is
> > most
> > > isolated. An educated French person has to speak other European
> > languages
> > > and know about their culture, doubly important since France
receives
> > more
> > > foreign tourists than any nation of the world.
> >
> > Not this one, I assure you. Were I offered a free trip to France, I
> > would rather pay for one to Spain. I find California wines every
bit as
> > good at a much better price than French,
>
> You should try Australian wines then Richard.
>
I've tried a few and found some of them excellent. They are not too
common up here. You blokes should do a better job advertising them.
What are you trying to do, keep them all to yourself?
Right. We believe in giving them due process, finding them guilty, and
*THEN* killing them after a decade or so of review. In places like
Mexico, the policia and Federalies just shoot them if they want without
benefit of any trial. But they are abolitionist!
A Planet Visitor
> In article <8rk1lu$i3d9i$2...@ID-50327.news.cis.dfn.de>,
> "S Moir" <smsc...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > "Richard Jackson" <ri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8rjpe1>
>
> > >
I
> > > would rather pay for one to Spain. I find California wines every
> bit as
> > > good at a much better price than French, I find the upper class
> > > Frenchman arrogant and the lower classes churlish. Both the women
> and
> > > the scenery are overrated. In fact, the only thing I found about
> France
> > > to be equal to other, less overrated parts of Europe is the
cooking.
> > > That is supurb..
> > >
German dinner, is a Bratwurst and a six-pack of Löwenbrau.
But you are right... the sauces are what make French food
exquisite. And it arises from the French methods of "reduction"
of sauces, extracting the essence. The English would know
little of this fact, since every sauce that they make has a large
portion of "purée of Liver (or kidney)" mixed in.
However, you are wrong on the women part. They too, are
exquisite. My wife could consume easily more than 50
oysters on the half-shell (the only way to eat them, with a
drop of lemon), in one sitting, and can still drink me under the
table in the quantity of Bordeaux wine consumed. That plus
English with a French accent, is a hard combination to beat.
A PV
A Planet Visitor
"Dave Proctor" <dap...@spambait.ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:h9eD5.8302$Ly1....@news5.giganews.com...
> "Richard Jackson" <ri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8rjpe1$i8p$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <8rd1o2$17hh$1...@news4.isdnet.net>,
> > "Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote:
<Clipping>
> I would disagree with this - I have been to both countries, and have
found
> the French to be arrogant to the extreme. They do not take kindly to
you if
> you do not know French, and are even worse if you try and use bumbling
> French from a guidebook (and I am talking about those in the tourist
trade,
> who you would expect to understand the language of the people they
were
> catering to - much like Japanese is a pre-requisite for anyone wanting
to
> enter the tourism industry here in Australia).
>
> Americans, on the other hand, go out of their way to help and assist
you,
> once they learn you are a tourist. It is almost as if they would be
> personally wounded if you were to leave with a bad impression of their
> country.
>
Yes, they can be arrogant (I speak from a lifetime of experience).
Especially when giving orders which tend to interfere with my time
on the computer. But how can you complain about a nation of
people that spit on the ground, whenever Desi turns his back to
any of them?
> > Not this one, I assure you. Were I offered a free trip to France, I
> > would rather pay for one to Spain. I find California wines every
bit as
> > good at a much better price than French,
>
> You should try Australian wines then Richard.
>
Is there any truth to the rumor that Australian wines are actually
imported from Algerian vineyards, Dave???
A PV
> Dave
>
>
>
Richard Jackson
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>
> "Richard Jackson" <ri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > In article <8rk1lu$i3d9i$2...@ID-50327.news.cis.dfn.de>,
> > "S Moir" <smsc...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
France,
> I
> > > > would rather pay for one to Spain. I find California wines
every
> > bit as
> > > > good at a much better price than French, I find the upper class
> > > > Frenchman arrogant and the lower classes churlish. Both the
women
> > and
> > > > the scenery are overrated. In fact, the only thing I found
about
> > France
> > > > to be equal to other, less overrated parts of Europe is the
> cooking.
> > > > That is supurb..
> > > >
Tell me about it. My wife attended Johnson and Wales culinary arts and
one of my sons the Art Institute of Houston Culinary Arts school. A
fine situation for a diabetic, eh?
> However, you are wrong on the women part. They too, are
> exquisite. My wife could consume easily more than 50
> oysters on the half-shell (the only way to eat them, with a
> drop of lemon), in one sitting, and can still drink me under the
> table in the quantity of Bordeaux wine consumed. That plus
> English with a French accent, is a hard combination to beat.
>
> A PV
>
>
Each to his own. I know about the Germans and English both from first
hand experience and heredity. My Grandfather was German, and my
mother's family were the Comptons of Savanna. One of my distant
relatives defeated Naploeon at Waterloo. I guess it's just in the blood
not to care much for the French. Besides, I prefer English women for
their beauty, and Spanish for the fire.
My wife is English and French (Acadian). A fine combination, indeed!
The mixture seems to be very agreeable.
Jürgen
Richard Jackson schrieb:
>
<snip>
>
>
> > The American system is more isidious in having creating a prison
> industrial
> > complex which imprisons fromp 6 to 10 times more per capita than any
> > European penal system. A monster has been created, which includes the
> death
> > penalty and supermax prisons.
> >
>
> Agreed. It is, however, our monster. We will change it when we desire
> to, just as the French will change their system. Neither will sway to
> outside pressure.
That change might be much more exhausting than your post is assuming.
Monsters are in habit to evolve a 'life' by themselves, and if once
awakened, they start to control their environment and no more reverse. US
choose to criminalize people putting them in jail, partial for little crimes
(tough on crime), afterwards they ARE criminal, worse than before. So now
the criminals ARE there, what to do else than put them back in jail ?
J.
Besides: I'm a bit disappointed of your non replying to "Bush fibs 'bout
powers".....
Evleth
> Agreed. It is, however, our monster. We will change it when we desire
> to, just as the French will change their system. Neither will sway to
> outside pressure.
>
What does this have to do with the string?
I have noticed in the past you are a string changer, if you don`t
like the subject post separately. Rec.travel.europe for travel.
Do you a concentration problem?
Jürgen
JIGSAW1695 schrieb:
> Subject: Re: International Court of Justice-The US and the Vienna
> From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?J=FCrgen?= k.j.h...@t-online.de
> Date: 10/5/00 9:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time
> Message-id: <39DC846E...@t-online.de>
>
> Old...@USA.net schrieb:
>
> > Just who the fuck is Germany to question any country, with the amount of
> > atrocities they and there wonderful leader Adolph have committed against
> > humanity around the European country side.
> >
>
> Did you ever ask what lead Germany into this catastrophy ?
>
> J. (from Germany)
>
> ================================
>
> Offhand, I would say the Treaty of Versailles (Sp?)
OK
> laid the ground work, and
> then the failure of the League of Nations inability to prevent the rearmament
> of Germany because of internal inconflict.
>
> JIgsaw
The internal aspects, i.e. how this SOB called 'Führer' could obtain power and
instate his totalitarism are AT LEAST as interesting as the international
situation.
J.
A Planet Visitor
> In article <IslD5.44275$1H2.3...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>,
> "A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
> >
> > "Richard Jackson" <ri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> > news:8rkeun$29n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > > In article <8rk1lu$i3d9i$2...@ID-50327.news.cis.dfn.de>,
> > > "S Moir" <smsc...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Richard Jackson" <ri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8rjpe1>
> > >
> > > > >
> France,
> > I
> > > > > would rather pay for one to Spain. I find California wines
> every
> > > bit as
> > > > > good at a much better price than French, I find the upper
class
> > > > > Frenchman arrogant and the lower classes churlish. Both the
> women
> > > and
> > > > > the scenery are overrated. In fact, the only thing I found
> about
> > > France
> > > > > to be equal to other, less overrated parts of Europe is the
> > cooking.
> > > > > That is supurb..
> > > > >
I am reminded of the comment, "This is a great day for France!"
spoken by Richard Nixon, while attending Charles De Gaulle's
funeral.
A PV
Evleth
>
> I would disagree with this - I have been to both countries, and have found
> the French to be arrogant to the extreme. They do not take kindly to you if
> you do not know French, and are even worse if you try and use bumbling
> French from a guidebook
>
>> The French have tried to control Europe for some time. With the
>> "Little Corporal" they were successful for a while, at least until he
>> got overextended and out-generaled. Now, they would attempt to do so
>> through the EU. It's too bad the Euro keeps losing ground wlhen
>> compared to the poor barbaric US Dollar.
I looked at these two posts, and thought the following: if this kind of
nasty attack had been made against Americans (obviously the context would be
different, but the content would be the same), the Americans would be
whining to death about "anti-Americanism". Americans are very good about
dishing it out. They simply can't take it.
Donna Evleth
Evleth
----------
Dans l'article <IslD5.44275$1H2.3...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com>, "A Planet
Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> a écrit :
>
> "Richard Jackson" <ri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8rkeun$29n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> In article <8rk1lu$i3d9i$2...@ID-50327.news.cis.dfn.de>,
>> "S Moir" <smsc...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> > "Richard Jackson" <ri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8rjpe1>
>>
>> > >
>> > > Not this one, I assure you. Were I offered a free trip to France,
> I
>> > > would rather pay for one to Spain. I find California wines every
>> bit as
>> > > good at a much better price than French, I find the upper class
>> > > Frenchman arrogant and the lower classes churlish. Both the women
>> and
>> > > the scenery are overrated. In fact, the only thing I found about
>> France
>> > > to be equal to other, less overrated parts of Europe is the
> cooking.
>> > > That is supurb..
>> > >
> However, you are wrong on the women part. They too, are
> exquisite. My wife could consume easily more than 50
> oysters on the half-shell (the only way to eat them, with a
> drop of lemon), in one sitting, and can still drink me under the
> table in the quantity of Bordeaux wine consumed. That plus
> English with a French accent, is a hard combination to beat.
>
>
> A PV
I always knew my stomach was born French, even when I was a kid.
When I was 13, my father said oysters were not safe around me. I
could also consume that quantity (and I totally agree, a drop of lemon is
the only way). Obviously I added the good Bordeaux later, but add it I did.
When I moved to France, and became French, I was merely following what my
stomach ordered. The old cliche is: an army marches on it stomach.
Donna Evleth
>
>
S Moir
"Desmond Coughlan" <des...@lievre.voute.net> wrote in message
news:slrn8tra9p....@lievre.voute.net...
> > > would rather pay for one to Spain. I find California wines every bit
as
> > > good at a much better price than French, I find the upper class
> > > Frenchman arrogant and the lower classes churlish. Both the women and
> > > the scenery are overrated. In fact, the only thing I found about
France
> > > to be equal to other, less overrated parts of Europe is the cooking.
> > > That is supurb..
>
> > What is it about french cuisine that impresses people so much?
> > It is absolutely bloody awful- it looks very artistic, but there is
seldom
> > enough on the plate to feed a mouse, and it can often turn out to be
garden
> > pests or small amphibians-yeuch.
> > Give me a steak any day- the whole point of eating is not to feel hungry
> > afterwards.
>
> not (necessarily) the same thing.
>
> It is generally accepted that there are three Great Cuisines: Indian,
Chinese,
> and ... French. French cuisine is among the best on the planet, and
(contrary
> to Little Englander prejudices) the French very, _very_ rarely eat frogs'
legs.
> I've eaten them once, and they taste a little bit like chicken, but it's a
rare
> occurence when the French eat them. Besides, once you've made the
decision to
> eat meat, what does it matter if the animal on your plate is a cow, a pig,
or a
> frog ? Precious squeamishness is nothing more than hypocrisy, for if
you're
> ready to eat a cow, then you should be ready to at least accept that
others want
> to eat a frog, or a dog, or a cat.
>
> --
> **********************************************************************
> * Desmond Coughlan Network Engineer Forum des Images Paris *
I'm not up on the differences between nouvelle and french cuisine, I just
know I don't like the food in France :-)
I don't object to eating garden pests and amphibians because I'm squeamish
inadvertently eating roasted rat in Thailand cured me of any squeamishness
I may have had), I just think they taste awful. Neither am I hypocritical
about it, as I have no problem if others want to spend a fortune lining the
pockets of some pretentious restuaranteur in order to eat wafer thin food
served in a puddle of sauce- it just isn't to my taste.
I suppose I must be a complete food philistine- you say there are three
Great cuisines- two of those three I just don't like, but I will eat chinese
food, so maybe there is hope for me yet :-)
i suppose all of this is a bit rich coming from someone whose national dish
is haggis, but I don't see the point in liking something just because it is
fashionable to do so.
Shona
S Moir
"Richard Jackson" <ri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8rkeun$29n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <8rk1lu$i3d9i$2...@ID-50327.news.cis.dfn.de>,
> "S Moir" <smsc...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > "Richard Jackson" <ri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8rjpe1> >
> > >
> > > would rather pay for one to Spain. I find California wines every
> bit as
> > > good at a much better price than French, I find the upper class
> > > Frenchman arrogant and the lower classes churlish. Both the women
> and
> > > the scenery are overrated. In fact, the only thing I found about
> France
> > > to be equal to other, less overrated parts of Europe is the cooking.
> > > That is supurb..
> > >
> > > Richard Jackson
> > >
> > ====================
> >
> > You like french cooking Richard?
> > What is it about french cuisine that impresses people so much?
> > It is absolutely bloody awful- it looks very artistic, but there is
> seldom
> > enough on the plate to feed a mouse, and it can often turn out to be
> garden
> > pests or small amphibians-yeuch.
> > Give me a steak any day- the whole point of eating is not to feel
> hungry
> > afterwards.
> >
> >
> >
>
> The sauces are intense. Besides, what's wrong with snails? I happen to
> fancy them quite a lot. Please note that I said the cooking was equal
> to, not better than.
>
> I too like a good steak, but it isn't a difficult feat to cook one
> properly. If I had to choose any cuisine as a favorite, I like German
> food. That's just because of my heritage and upbringing, I suspect, but
> I like it!
>
> --
> Richard Jackson
>
It's a difficult feat for me to cook a steak properly!
I suppose it all comes down to what you're used to- I was brought up to
appreciate a good, honest plateful of food that hadn't been mucked about
with too much.
Most of my good memories of Germany are food-related, and I can never
understand why it is so under-estimated around the world, or is it just that
the french can boast more loudly :-)
S Moir
>
>
> > Agreed. It is, however, our monster. We will change it when we desire
> > to, just as the French will change their system. Neither will sway to
> > outside pressure.
> >
>
> I have noticed in the past you are a string changer, if you don`t
> like the subject post separately. Rec.travel.europe for travel.
>
> Do you a concentration problem?
============================
Although this wasn't posted to me, I would like to ask a question arising
from your post.
I know this ng is aadp, but don't you think a little off-topic chatter is
good for us all?
It lets a little of our personalities out, and both sides can sometimes find
out that we are not as different from each other as we think.
If you don't like the offshoots of off-topic conversations just don't
participate in them, but stop being such a killjoy and complaining about it.
There's nothing more depressing than a moaning minnie.
Shona
Richard Jackson
"S Moir" <smsc...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> "Richard Jackson" <ri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8rkeun$29n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <8rk1lu$i3d9i$2...@ID-50327.news.cis.dfn.de>,
> > "S Moir" <smsc...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > "Richard Jackson" <ri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8rjpe1> >
> > > >
France, I
> > > > would rather pay for one to Spain. I find California wines
every
> > bit as
> > > > good at a much better price than French, I find the upper class
> > > > Frenchman arrogant and the lower classes churlish. Both the
women
> > and
> > > > the scenery are overrated. In fact, the only thing I found
about
> > France
> > > > to be equal to other, less overrated parts of Europe is the
cooking.
> > > > That is supurb..
> > > >
Steak is easy, but does require a bit of experience to get right.
> Most of my good memories of Germany are food-related, and I can never
> understand why it is so under-estimated around the world, or is it
just that
> the french can boast more loudly :-)
>
>
German food is excellent, if it does tend to be a bit heavier than I
need to eat at times. I tend to stick to the many excellent varieties
of cheese and sausage which are available. Match them to a good beer
such as Dortmunder Union Dark and add a bit of dark bread. It's a noon
meal which is hard to beat.
Richard Jackson
=?iso-8859-1?Q?J=FCrgen?= <k.j.h...@t-online.de> wrote:
>
>
> Richard Jackson schrieb:
>
> >
>
> <snip>
>
> >
> >
> > > The American system is more isidious in having creating a prison
> > industrial
> > > complex which imprisons fromp 6 to 10 times more per capita than
any
> > > European penal system. A monster has been created, which includes
the
> > death
> > > penalty and supermax prisons.
> > >
> >
> > Agreed. It is, however, our monster. We will change it when we
desire
> > to, just as the French will change their system. Neither will sway
to
> > outside pressure.
>
> Monsters are in habit to evolve a 'life' by themselves, and if once
> awakened, they start to control their environment and no more reverse.
US
> choose to criminalize people putting them in jail, partial for little
crimes
> (tough on crime), afterwards they ARE criminal, worse than before. So
now
> the criminals ARE there, what to do else than put them back in jail ?
>
> J.
>
> Besides: I'm a bit disappointed of your non replying to "Bush fibs
'bout
> powers".....
>
>
To be honest, I haven't taken the time to look at it. I have been out
of town the last two days picking up my youngest son, who just went on
leave from tha US Airforce pending his first assignment overseas. I'll
probably be spending as much time as possible with him the next three
weeks since I will not see him again for a year or so.
Richard Jackson
"Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote:
>
>
> > Agreed. It is, however, our monster. We will change it when we
desire
> > to, just as the French will change their system. Neither will sway
to
> > outside pressure.
> >
>
> I have noticed in the past you are a string changer, if you don`t
> like the subject post separately. Rec.travel.europe for travel.
>
To hell with you. Who appointed you netcop? Besides, as I explain
below, the reply is directly related to what you posted. You just were
not astute enough to see the relationship, so I explained it in a bit
greater detail. Hopefully it will be well enough explained so you
might grapple with it now.
> Do you a concentration problem?
>
Perhaps it will help you understand the point if I repeat what was said
that I was replying to:
((( > The American system is more isidious in having creating a prison
industrial
> complex which imprisons fromp 6 to 10 times more per capita than any
> European penal system. A monster has been created, which includes the
death
> penalty and supermax prisons.
>
Agreed. It is, however, our monster. We will change it when we desire
to, just as the French will change their
system. Neither will sway to outside pressure.)))
The string was about the French and their antiquidated justice system,
and the "monster" (to quote you) of the US legal system, in particular
the criminal justice system.
My reply was that yes, the system is an apparent monster, but it is our
monster and we. like the French, will not bow to outside pressure and
change it until we are good and ready. It makes little difference who
applies the pressure.
Do you now understand?
Evleth
> Although this wasn't posted to me, I would like to ask a question arising
> from your post.
> I know this ng is aadp, but don't you think a little off-topic chatter is
> good for us all?
> It lets a little of our personalities out, and both sides can sometimes find
> out that we are not as different from each other as we think.
> If you don't like the offshoots of off-topic conversations just don't
> participate in them, but stop being such a killjoy and complaining about it.
> There's nothing more depressing than a moaning minnie.
>
> Shona
>
I have been on the internet too long not to recognize string shift. Some
people do it in order to get the subject off something they don`t like.
Some of the newsgroups do have wandering subjects. But food
and travel is well discussed in rec.travel.europe. This group is fully
dedicated to peoples travel problems etc, virtually never gets into
political topics. Some people express their culture shock after returning
(usually their first trip, and usually relatively untraveled people).
OK, no problem, that is where it belongs.
Next, we have groups which are into politics and general subjects. The
soc.retirement is actually mostly that, not the problems of retirement
(health coverage, pensions, where to to retire). The old "farts" as my wife
refers to them (mostly males), mostly conservative and probably reasonably
well off, prefer to talk about their taxes or the welfare bums or some other
pet irritation, than what the news group title is about. OK, that group
has evolved in that way, that is the way it is.
Next, I first posted on the Internationl Court of Justice to focus
attention to what it has done and what it is likely to do. What to
people end up writing about, things like California wines! Because
we (my wife and I both communicate from this e-mail address, our real
names are Earl and Donna, Evleth is the family name and we live in
Paris, we possess both US and French citizenship) are abolitionists
we decided recently post here.
The title of this news group is, by the way alt.activism.death-penalty.
We naturally assumed that pro and con-death penalty people would post
here. We are quite use to subject drift in postings, but the one on this
subject (International Court of Justice-The US and the Vienna Convention
violation) was so far, I decided to complain about it. I do it myself
now and then, but I tend to recognize it when I do and try to discipline
myself to not doing it. Also this kind of diverting can be a ploy, some
seems to use it to attack people when they can`t maintain his arguments.
> If you don't like the offshoots of off-topic conversations just don't
> participate in them, but stop being such a killjoy ---
We don`t participate when the subject line drifts to much. I noticed
an attempt to be provocative in trying to drag people in. But again I
posted this subject and I have the right to call attention to the fact that
there is a lack of discipline in maintaining the subject line, even if
generally along the death penalty line.
Anybody has the right of being a "killjoy" on the groups, I can`t censor
what is said and nobody can censor me. The death-penalty happens to be a
serious subject, I see no joy in any aspect of it. Maybe the frat boys
yelling outside the prison the night of Bundy`s death had the joy of
screaming "burn Bundy burn", but murder and executions are not joy filled
sujects/
Evleth
> To hell with you. Who appointed you netcop?
I posted this subject line originally and expected
it to evolve along the lines of this group. The groups have no censors, no
cops. I have the right to say what I said, I said that the subject drifted
far from its original topic, had nothing to do with the death penalty,
I called for some individual self control.
I have not looked at the postings to see who took the subject off onto
California wines and froggy bashing (our term for knocking the French)
but my impression it that you played a leading roll. This is to be expected
because you have generally exhibited a lack of discipline in such manners,
something I noted early on.
Again, this group is alt.activism.death-penalty. Take your meds, concentrate
and try to maintain focus.
Dave Proctor
>
> > I would disagree with this - I have been to both countries, and have
found
> > the French to be arrogant to the extreme. They do not take kindly to you
if
> > you do not know French, and are even worse if you try and use bumbling
> > French from a guidebook
> >
> >> "Little Corporal" they were successful for a while, at least until he
> >> got overextended and out-generaled. Now, they would attempt to do so
> >> through the EU. It's too bad the Euro keeps losing ground wlhen
> >> compared to the poor barbaric US Dollar.
>
> nasty attack had been made against Americans (obviously the context would
be
> different, but the content would be the same), the Americans would be
> whining to death about "anti-Americanism". Americans are very good about
> dishing it out. They simply can't take it.
And us Australians are experts at dishing it out.
Dave
Dave Proctor
> > You should try Australian wines then Richard.
>
> I've tried a few and found some of them excellent. They are not too
> common up here. You blokes should do a better job advertising them.
They are doing that, but the world is a big place, and we are a small
country with a population of only 19 million (makes you wonder how we won so
many Olympic medals, doesn't it!) We can only do so much.
> What are you trying to do, keep them all to yourself?
Well, some do. I would rather keep our beer (sits back and sucks on another
Tooheys Extra Dry).
Dave
Dave Proctor
news:5ClD5.44365$1H2.3...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
> Is there any truth to the rumor that Australian wines are actually
> imported from Algerian vineyards, Dave???
None whatsoever - they are all grown in the Barossa Valley, the Hunter
Valley, etc., all of which have some of the best vineyards in the world (of
course, you need a good winemaker to convert that to good wine, and we have
quite a few).
The climate in these areas is absolutely suited to growing grapes, and it
shows in their output, with some of the wines from these regions winning
international awards (some of them even beating the French).
Dave
Richard Jackson
"Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote:
>
>
> > To hell with you. Who appointed you netcop?
>
> I posted this subject line originally and expected
> it to evolve along the lines of this group. The groups have no
censors, no
> cops. I have the right to say what I said, I said that the subject
drifted
> far from its original topic, had nothing to do with the death penalty,
> I called for some individual self control.
>
> I have not looked at the postings to see who took the subject off onto
> California wines and froggy bashing (our term for knocking the French)
Here we call it frog gigging
> but my impression it that you played a leading roll. This is to be
expected
> because you have generally exhibited a lack of discipline in such
manners,
> something I noted early on.
>
> Again, this group is alt.activism.death-penalty. Take your meds,
concentrate
> and try to maintain focus.
>
>
And you can take your attitude and go to hell. This is
*alt*.activism.death-penalty. Alt newsgroups are pretty open just as
you point out. If you do not appreciate the content of my posts, you
are free, just as I am, to say what you wish, killfile, or not reply.
You have no more right to attempt to tell me what to write than France
or any other nation (the US included) has to tell another nation what is
right for them to use, including the death penalty. That is what this
string is about, a bunch of men and women of other nations attempting to
tell the US what they should or should not do within their own legal
system. That they are jurists makes no difference. They have no legal
standing in the US legal system and are thus interlopers at worst and at
best busy-bodies.
My seemingly posts were intended to lead you to a position where I could
make that abundantly clear, and they did so. Thank you for playing the
game, even if you do tend to be somewhat stiff and boring.
Dave Proctor
> You have no more right to attempt to tell me what to write than France
> or any other nation (the US included) has to tell another nation what is
> right for them to use, including the death penalty.
I agree on this matter, that each country should decide what is best for
them. I presume you will be writing to your Congressman the nest time the
United States decides to play global sheriff, and decides to tell another
country that they are in the wrong (WRT human rights, etc)?
> That is what this
> string is about, a bunch of men and women of other nations attempting to
> tell the US what they should or should not do within their own legal
> system.
And that is what the government of the United States is so good at doing.
Since the government represents the people, I presume you condome the
actions of the US government when it attempts to tell other governments how
they should conduct their affairs? If you do not agree with their actions,
what are you doing to make your feelings known? And if you do agree with
their actions, why do you have harsh feelings when the exact same actions
are visitted upon you by those in other countries?
> That they are jurists makes no difference. They have no legal
> standing in the US legal system and are thus interlopers at worst and at
> best busy-bodies.
Like the US government, as far as other countries are concerned?
> My seemingly posts were intended to lead you to a position where I could
> make that abundantly clear, and they did so. Thank you for playing the
> game, even if you do tend to be somewhat stiff and boring.
And thank you for enabling me to make the point that the US government is
one of the worst offenders at what you are complaining about.
Dave
A Planet Visitor
A PV
A Planet Visitor
<Rest clipped>
> And thank you for enabling me to make the point that the US government
is
> one of the worst offenders at what you are complaining about.
>
> Dave
>
Actually, Dave, in one area, The Middle-East conflict, the U.S.
seems to be the only country not just concerned about the
lives that are being lost, but trying to do something about it.
The Middle-East peace process, from the Carter Administration
to the present day, seems to exclusively involve efforts of the
U.S. The UN and powers in Europe seem to be content to
sit back and "cluck their tongue," in disapproval of the events
which are transpiring, but don't feel it necessary to attempt
any efforts at reconciliation of the monumental problems
(which they, to a large degree, created with the partition of
Palestine), in that region.
If you see those efforts as being "The Sheriff," then perhaps,
as in areas of the former Yugoslavia, we should just sit
back and let them use the "Last Man Standing wins" principle
to determine who rules what.
A PV
Richard Jackson
"Dave Proctor" <dap...@spambait.ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> "Richard Jackson" <ri...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
> news:8rn0np$iu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
France
> > or any other nation (the US included) has to tell another nation
what is
> > right for them to use, including the death penalty.
>
> I agree on this matter, that each country should decide what is best
for
> them. I presume you will be writing to your Congressman the nest time
the
> United States decides to play global sheriff, and decides to tell
another
> country that they are in the wrong (WRT human rights, etc)?
>
Too late. Been there and done that already several times.
> > That is what this
> > string is about, a bunch of men and women of other nations
attempting to
> > tell the US what they should or should not do within their own legal
> > system.
>
> And that is what the government of the United States is so good at
doing.
> Since the government represents the people, I presume you condome the
> actions of the US government when it attempts to tell other
governments how
> they should conduct their affairs? If you do not agree with their
actions,
> what are you doing to make your feelings known? And if you do agree
with
> their actions, why do you have harsh feelings when the exact same
actions
> are visitted upon you by those in other countries?
>
Already asked and answered. I do not support, and have already
protested our nation's actions attempting to tell others what to do.
We should stick to what we are best at, and support those nations who
wish to cooperate with us commercially. Those who wish to compete
against us should be economically competed with as any business would
compete with another.
> > That they are jurists makes no difference. They have no legal
> > standing in the US legal system and are thus interlopers at worst
and at
> > best busy-bodies.
>
> Like the US government, as far as other countries are concerned?
>
Surley, except where matters of international treaties are concerned.
Those are the law.
> > My seemingly posts were intended to lead you to a position where I
could
> > make that abundantly clear, and they did so. Thank you for playing
the
> > game, even if you do tend to be somewhat stiff and boring.
>
> And thank you for enabling me to make the point that the US government
is
> one of the worst offenders at what you are complaining about.
>
> Dave
>
>
Dave, have you ever see me argue this point on behalf of the US? Except
where intervaining on behalf of the UN or in other treaty agreements
where we must intervein or go against our legal agreements with other
nations, we should butt out of other folks affairs. If we don't like
what they do, we should compete with the economically and let happen
what will happen.
Richard Jackson
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote:
>
> "Dave Proctor" <dap...@spambait.ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
> news:%gED5.12670$Ly1.1...@news5.giganews.com...
> > news:8rn0np$iu$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>
>
> > And thank you for enabling me to make the point that the US
government
> is
> > one of the worst offenders at what you are complaining about.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> seems to be the only country not just concerned about the
> lives that are being lost, but trying to do something about it.
> The Middle-East peace process, from the Carter Administration
> to the present day, seems to exclusively involve efforts of the
> U.S. The UN and powers in Europe seem to be content to
> sit back and "cluck their tongue," in disapproval of the events
> which are transpiring, but don't feel it necessary to attempt
> any efforts at reconciliation of the monumental problems
> (which they, to a large degree, created with the partition of
> Palestine), in that region.
> If you see those efforts as being "The Sheriff," then perhaps,
> as in areas of the former Yugoslavia, we should just sit
> back and let them use the "Last Man Standing wins" principle
> to determine who rules what.
>
> A PV
>
>
Hey! That works for me. There's a lot of money to be made selling both
sides US weapons. When they have decimated each other, whoever wishes
to can walk in and take over. Why should we be coy about it? Let's
sell the second best we have to the highest bidder. (Of course, we will
keep the best weapons for oursleves just in case we want to walk in)
hrgr...@my-deja.com
shar...@aol.com (Sharpjfa) wrote:
> No one disputes there was a violation of the Convention. The issue is
what that
> brought up on appeal in time. The answer is no. The Vienna Convention
is
> specific that the rules of the convention will be enforced within the
law of
> the taking juristiction. This appellate issue was brought forward to
alte.
> Furthermore, we have something called harmless error, meaning that
when error
> is made an assesment as to its likely effect on the verdict and
sentence. If
> the court finds it reasonalble that such error had no effect, then
the case
> will not be overturned. I suspect both issues will be part of the US's
> presentation and that both issues will prevail, in the US's favor.
As I understand international law, harmless error is irrelevant.
Germany asserts *her* rights before the ICJ, not the ones of her late
citizens. A violation of an international treaty is a tort in
international law, independent of any consequences for individuals in a
proceeding under the law of a particular country.
If no one disputes that the Convention was violated, the decision of
the ICJ should be clear-cut.
BTW, just as in the US it is a federal question whether a violation of
federal Constitutional law can be held harmless, shouldn't it be for
international law to decide whether the violation of an international
convention can be harmless error ? Otherwise it would be easy for a
country to evade its international responsibilities by declaring: "OK,
we've violated international law, but so what ? *We* say it's harmless
error ...".
Regards,
HRG.
> sharp Justice For All http://www.jfa.net/
> http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/ http://www.murdervictims.com/
>
> Overwhelmingly, the US criminal justice system benefits criminals,
dishonors
> victims and contributes to future victimizations.
A Planet Visitor
<Rest clipped.>
> .....but murder and executions are not joy filled
> sujects/
>
No they are not. But one needs to always examine
cause and effect principles in any human response
system.
A PV
Evleth
> The internal aspects, i.e. how this SOB called 'Führer' could obtain power and
> instate his totalitarism are AT LEAST as interesting as the international
> situation.
Remember one is dealing with history in this case, a fair portion of the
people now living in Germany were not alive at the time of Hitler. The
question is are those "new" people different than the older people who
were products of a culture which brought Hitler to power.
Certainly there is a lot of difference. First, look at the young people
circulating in Europe. They wearing running shoes and sweat shirts and
and have visited other countries. Hitler included, most of the upper
levels of the Nazi power had never been outside of Germany other than
at war. They had not travel, they did not know other Europeans.
It is impossible to imagine France and Germany going to war now.
Most Europeans do not know how much things have changed in the last
60 years. As for the opposition to the death penalty, its universal
removal from the legal codes of Europe would be impossible to imagine
at that time.
The times are not only "a-changin", they have changed. The answer in
not "blowin" in the wind, it already settled into the mores of the
Europeans. In America the answer blew away.
A Planet Visitor
Clipped
> They are doing that, but the world is a big place, and we are a small
> country with a population of only 19 million (makes you wonder how we
won so
> many Olympic medals, doesn't it!) We can only do so much.
<TONGUE-IN-CHEEK>
Wait a minute.. Australia was in the Olympics??? And they
won a medal??? Nobody told me. I guess I'm going to have
to start watching ANN (Australia News Network). :-)
</TONGUE-IN-CHEEK>
Clipped.
A PV
> Dave
>
>
>
S Moir
> sujects/
>
>
====================
I gather it's Earl I'm talking to then.
Well Earl, thank you very much for the lesson on newsgroups, but my IQ is
above retarded and I'm already aware that the title of the newsgroups have
some indication of their general content, and I am aware of the title of
this newsgroup (which is often referred to as aadp to save everyone's
fingers and keyboards).
As for your second point, and I quote
"I posted this subject and I have the right to call attention to the fact
that there is a lack of discipline"
When I read that line I had a mental image of an adult-sized toddler
stamping his feet and shouting "no fair" because he can't get his own way.
What's the problem? Don't you like the OT wanderings of others sullying your
nice neat thread?
It happens to everyone's threads (sometimes it can be quite funny to see
just how differently a thread can evolve from it's original topic). Get over
it.
Last point- I called you a killjoy, and you have obviously taken offence at
that. Perhaps I should have called you a wet blanket, a nitpicker or just a
pain in the neck.
You have no need to tell me that death, whether it be murder or execution,
is not a joy-filled event, and you take the word completely out of context
in using it against me in this way.
The topic of this newsgroup is a very heavy one, and sometimes we all need
to lighten things up. That does not mean we take death lightly- the fact
that we are all here to discuss it should show that.
You're an abolitionist, right?
Haven't you ever heard the saying "live and let live"?
Shona
Jürgen
Evleth schrieb:
Chère Donna, chèr Earl,
I appreciate your estimation about the European situation, particularly the
french/german relations. Indeed I can't imagine any danger outgoing from Germany
today. The parameters are so different from that of the (extreme weak) Weimarer
Republik, the economy is fine, employment is acceptable, and much more....
The german militarism is gone, as far as I see, the Bundeswehr is tending since I
can remember to get smaller.
As long as European Economy works fine I can't see any threat, and the weak Euro
also doesn't scare me. The previous bandwith DM to $ had been from 1.20 DM/$ to 4.20
DM/$. Let's give Europe a chance.
(Single alarming point sometimes is Turkey/Greece's quarrel about Cyprus)
Cordialement
Jürgen
John Rennie
"Jürgen" <k.j.h...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:39E07A21...@t-online.de...
Oh Jurgen! Is that the only 'single alarming point'? You are not
worried by the anti-democratic nature of Brussels; you are not
worried by the fact that well over 500,000 illegal immigrants
are pouring in Germany every year, into a Europe that has high
levels of unemployment except, of course, for the UK; you are
not worried by the increasing number of 'poor' eastern European
countries that have joined and wish to join the EU (as a 'donor' nation
Germany should be very worried by this one); you are not
worried by the fact that you are losing one of the world's strong
currencies and replacing it with a currency that your admirable
Bundes Bank no longer controls (even if you are not worried by
this one I know plenty of Germans who are); finally you are not
worried by the creation of an artificial entity dreamt up in the
minds of civil servants. This is a monster, Jurgen, let's hope
it doesn't eat you up.
Desmond Coughlan
[snip]
> > The arrogance of France is at the level of the American.
> > We have spent a long time in both countries, and of the
> > two we judge the US as more generally arrogant and ethnocentric than
> the
> > French. Why? Because France exists in a European community,
> The French have tried to control Europe for some time. With the
> "Little Corporal" they were successful for a while, at least until he
> got overextended and out-generaled. Now, they would attempt to do so
> through the EU. It's too bad the Euro keeps losing ground wlhen
> compared to the poor barbaric US Dollar.
Please, Richard, tell us all when the last time the French 'tried to
control Europe' ...
More to the point, tell us poor confused souls who your real bogeyman
over here in Europe really is. I for one, am confused as to whether you
like the Germans and hate the French, vice versa, detest the Spanish and
adore the Macedonians, whilst not being able to be in the same room as
a Greek ... or indeed, all of the above.
> the US is
> most
> > isolated. An educated French person has to speak other European
> languages
> > and know about their culture, doubly important since France receives
> more
> > foreign tourists than any nation of the world.
> Not this one, I assure you. Were I offered a free trip to France, I
> would rather pay for one to Spain. I find California wines every bit as
> good at a much better price than French, I find the upper class
> Frenchman arrogant and the lower classes churlish. Both the women and
> the scenery are overrated. In fact, the only thing I found about France
> to be equal to other, less overrated parts of Europe is the cooking.
> That is supurb..
You indeed appear to dislike France, Richard, but that doesn't change the
fact that this wonderful country _is_ the most popular tourist destination
on the face of the planet.
Besides ... we don't have 'class' in France. Liberté, Egalité, et
Fraternité, and all that ...
[snip]
--
**********************************************************************
* Desmond Coughlan Network Engineer Forum des Images Paris *
* dcou...@vdp.fr http://www.forumdesimages.net/ (01) 44.76.62.29 *
* PGP Public Key: http://www.coughlan.net/desmond/pgp/pubring.pkr *
**********************************************************************
St.George_in_Vancouver, BC
> "A Planet Visitor" <abc...@abcxyz.com> wrote in message
> news:5ClD5.44365$1H2.3...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> > Is there any truth to the rumor that Australian wines are actually
> > imported from Algerian vineyards, Dave???
>
> None whatsoever - they are all grown in the Barossa Valley, the Hunter
> Valley, etc., all of which have some of the best vineyards in the world
(of
> course, you need a good winemaker to convert that to good wine, and we
have
> quite a few).
>
> The climate in these areas is absolutely suited to growing grapes, and it
> shows in their output, with some of the wines from these regions winning
> international awards (some of them even beating the French).
Hey, what about our English wines??
We have just had one that has reached the heady classification of
'drinkable' for the first time in our history!
St.George_in_Vancouver, BC
> In article <8rks0g$10ka$1...@news6.isdnet.net>,
> "Evleth" <dev...@noos.fr> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > Agreed. It is, however, our monster. We will change it when we
> desire
> > > to, just as the French will change their system. Neither will sway
> to
> > > outside pressure.
> > >
> > What does this have to do with the string?
> >
> > like the subject post separately. Rec.travel.europe for travel.
> >
>
> To hell with you.
I love these US v France flame-wars - it saves me not one, but two jobs!
St.George_in_Vancouver, BC
"Desmond Coughlan" <des...@lievre.voute.net> wrote in message
news:slrn8ukctm....@lievre.voute.net...
> On Fri, 06 Oct 2000 05:54:09 GMT, Richard Jackson <ri...@my-deja.com>
wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > > The arrogance of France is at the level of the American.
>
> > > We have spent a long time in both countries, and of the
> > > two we judge the US as more generally arrogant and ethnocentric than
> > the
> > > French. Why? Because France exists in a European community,
>
> > The French have tried to control Europe for some time. With the
> > "Little Corporal" they were successful for a while, at least until he
> > got overextended and out-generaled. Now, they would attempt to do so
> > through the EU. It's too bad the Euro keeps losing ground wlhen
> > compared to the poor barbaric US Dollar.
>
> Please, Richard, tell us all when the last time the French 'tried to
> control Europe' ...
>
> More to the point, tell us poor confused souls who your real bogeyman
> over here in Europe really is. I for one, am confused as to whether you
> like the Germans and hate the French, vice versa, detest the Spanish and
> adore the Macedonians, whilst not being able to be in the same room as
> a Greek ... or indeed, all of the above.
But Desmond, Macedonia isn't even _in_ Europe, is it...?
> > the US is
> > most
> > > isolated. An educated French person has to speak other European
> > languages
> > > and know about their culture, doubly important since France receives
> > more
> > > foreign tourists than any nation of the world.
>
> > Not this one, I assure you. Were I offered a free trip to France, I
> > would rather pay for one to Spain. I find California wines every bit as
> > good at a much better price than French, I find the upper class
> > Frenchman arrogant and the lower classes churlish. Both the women and
> > the scenery are overrated. In fact, the only thing I found about France
> > to be equal to other, less overrated parts of Europe is the cooking.
> > That is supurb..
>
> You indeed appear to dislike France, Richard, but that doesn't change the
> fact that this wonderful country _is_ the most popular tourist destination
> on the face of the planet.
Hmm. Is that _really_ true?
Sure, the foreign entry figure is the largest, but how much of that is due
to Germans passing through to Spain, Italians to Belgium, Danes to Portugal
etc.? [and back again]
Also, how many Brits visit French ports for reasons that aren't exactly
cultural?
The point is that the supposed French tourist figures presumably include a
uniquely high proportion of individuals who are not really tourists to
France....
Evleth
only do so if the writer drifts off during the post from the
string to a non-sequitur subject---
> But Desmond, Macedonia isn't even _in_ Europe, is it...?
It is in the Balkans, Europe ends just a little further on.
I hope you were joking. I don`t think any European would make
this error in geography statement. An American in the hinterlands.
Once I was trying to arrange the subscription of a computer magazine
to be sent to Cuba. The office was in Denver so I called from Europe
to try and arrange this using my credit card. The person I talked
to took all the information and then asked
"Where is Cuba?"
Taken aback I did not know what to say so I uttered something
like
"Its in the Americas, the Norther Hemisphere"
I should have said that it was an large island (very) 90 miles south of
Florida. I did comment to myself that I hoped that the general geographical
knowledge of the world was not this bad in America.
>> You indeed appear to dislike France, Richard, but that doesn't change the
>> fact that this wonderful country _is_ the most popular tourist destination
>> on the face of the planet.
>
> Hmm. Is that _really_ true?
Yep, true, 70 million a year, up from 60 just a couple of years ago.
France has something like 8 of the top 12 European tourist attactions.
The last numbers I saw were than Disneyland Europe was the top attraction
at 12 million. The Paris region has the stuff in Paris, the tower, Notre
Dame and just outside Versailles. The Eiffel tower gets something like
10 million a year.
I think an Alamanac will provide you with the figures. The US has an
enormous numbers of internal tourists, the country is large, 280 million or
so. So the US can brag about that.
Next, France is also a transit country, people from Britain, North Western
Europe and parts of Germany take the autoroutes down to Italy and Spain.
These routes incur traffic jams during July and August. Air travel is also
popular, few people drive all the way to Greece, it is cheaper to fly.
> Sure, the foreign entry figure is the largest, but how much of that is due
> to Germans passing through to Spain, Italians to Belgium, Danes to Portugal
> etc.? [and back again]
That number is unknown to me. It is considerable. But a lot of people come
here, the country fills up and it is hard to get hotel and motel
accommodations in the summer. Right now the country could not handle a lot
more tourists.
A number of people come and buy housing in France. One article I read this
summer mentioned 500,000 Brits owning country homes in southern France.
Why? They are cheaper than southern England, the climate is good and sunny.
How would you like some nice stone built farm house with wooden rafters
in a country setting? Some areas built up a large foreign population
of Brits, Dutch, Germans, Belges. Some even come to live full time.
I know some Americans who have done it.
France is extremely welcoming to foreigners coming to live if they have
money. If you look at US visa requirements, a rich foreigner can not
just get a visa and retire in the US. There is no visa slot for these kinds
of people. The Wall Street Journal had a feature article on this about 6
months ago.
France and other European countries will welcome rice retirees. The poor
should abstain, however.
This summer there was a lack of tourists along the southern Brittany coast
due to a polluting oil spill last year which produced the image of
pollution. The problem was cleaned up but the tourists, both French and
foreign did not to there.
> Also, how many Brits visit French ports for reasons that aren't exactly
> cultural?
I don`t know the number. One of the facts of the Paris-London TGV is that it
was mainly taken by Brits coming to France to visit. Not just passing
through on their way to southern Europe.
This summer, for instance, we spent several weeks in the Var, which is just
north of Marseilles, at a country inn. The place is nice, has a swimming
pool, and ran us about 1000 francs (about $150) a day total for two people
including breakfast and evening meals. The restaurant was good, the place is
in the Guide Michelin and also another guide specializing in nice vacation
hotels. We had our car, in fact the location required having a car.
One can tell the natinalities of the other hotel guess by their car`s
license plates. Also their socioeconomic level. We had a mixture of
mainly Brits, Swiss, Belges, some Germans and some French. Occasionally
one sees an American but basically the Americans do not dominate the out of
the way vacation areas the Europeans like. Americans are often trophy
collectors, visiting the well known tourist sites. We also spent three
weeks in Greece later on since we normally take two vacations in the summer
with a break.
On the roads and in the motels on the way down to Southern France there are
a lot of foreigners. Southern France really does fill up, one has to make
reservations for good places well in advance.
One should never forget, the Germans don`t, their saying
"Lieben wie Gott im Frankreich".
La France douce.
Just because one does not like French attitudes on the death penalty or even
other issues, one should not be blind to the fact that this is generally
one very popular country to visit. The food is very good (one has to be
careful in the summer since areas highly frequented by tourists experience
some problems with finding really excellent food). Some claim the French
have the best food in the world. One of the perks in coming here and living
(we did this over 25 years ago) is the food and the pleasant vacations.
Remember also that the French get 5 weeks vacation a year, from the first
year of employment. This is a perk which Americans lack. Moreover, the lack
of a overly puritan ethic allows people enjoy their vacations without
feeling guilty, they feel that they deserve a vacation. It is also a period
during which family ties bond. The divorce rates seem to be lower, families
more unified (family values is not a political slogan in France).
> The point is that the supposed French tourist figures presumably include a
> uniquely high proportion of individuals who are not really tourists to
> France....
Personal experience refutes any claim that they are mostly "passing through"
by car. The distances are enormous here, why on the average use up 3-4 days
driving from Britain to mid- or southern Italy or Spain. It is a waste of
vacation time. If you look at the British papers they are filled with flight
offers to go to Spain, Italy, and Greece.
There is some passing through. One of the errors of the Disneyland planers
was guessing that people would come and stay there. Europe is not the USA,
people have long vacations and have to carefully plan their budgets. In
Orlando, Americans might come and spend their entire vacation at Disneyland,
a big week or so, driving the rest of the time to and from. The Europeans
visiting Disneyland came for a day, sometimes two, left and did not spend
the kind of money the Disney planers thought they were going to spend.
The Disney planers were Americans who were playing to their own tune in
their heads, they did not know about European vacation culture. The project
was finally handed over to some Europeans who knew what they were doing.
But financially the project, as popular as it is, is limping along
financially. Theme parks here have a tough time, people are not going to
blow their vacation budgets, which are suppose to handle 20 or so days
on a few days in a theme park. Disney`s people had some preconceptions
which they paid dearly for, or more exactly their European stockholders
paid dearly.
I have taken some effort to educate you on that culture. This is the biggest
foreign vacation site in the world. In Paris in the summer the restaurants
fill up with so many Americans that one has a hard time hearing (Americans
have the unfortunate habit of talking too loud in a restaurant). But only
in Paris, the out of the way areas of France are visited by Europeans.
Dave Proctor
> I have given up ranting about keeping on the string, I will
> only do so if the writer drifts off during the post from the
> string to a non-sequitur subject---
>
> > But Desmond, Macedonia isn't even _in_ Europe, is it...?
>
> It is in the Balkans, Europe ends just a little further on.
>
> I hope you were joking. I don`t think any European would make
> this error in geography statement. An American in the hinterlands.
Desmond has this weird habit of using the term "Europe" only in the
political sense, rather than the geographic sense. So only those countries
in the EU are in Europe, those that are not are not in Europe.
Dave
Evleth
> Desmond has this weird habit of using the term "Europe" only in the
> political sense, rather than the geographic sense. So only those countries
> in the EU are in Europe, those that are not are not in Europe.
Basically the Euro-American incursion into Bosnia and Kosovo is an attempt
to deBalkanized the Balkans. It is the one unstable area in Europe and
pax-Euro-American is an attempt to start historical processes moving towards
stability.In this era of globalisation where commercial interests dominate
culture, it is in everybodies interest (their pocketbook interests) to get
rid of the ethnic conflicts.
Basically, one is talking about the Europeanisation of the region, this
includes Greece. We have gone to Greece every summer since the late 1980s
and have many Greek friends. Greece always has seemed to me to have one
foot in the third world, some practices are still out of step with
the rest of Europe. For instance, the Greek Orthodox church wants one`s
religious affliation on people`s national identity cards. The head of the
church even imported a piece of the original cross from Israel for
part of his campaign to get religion back on the people`s identity cards.
You Texans and Gov Brush mess around with the same kind of pandering
(Jesus Day was voted in by Bush, I believe, although Christmas is already
on the agenda).
Most Greeks say they are Greek Orthodox and I suspect the few non-Orthodox
Christians and Jews around are known by their names or behavior. But this
mixture of church and state would be considered distasteful by the other
Europeans. So this current issue demonstrates that the Greeks are not fully
Europeanised. The process has been occurring, infrastructure is improving,
and meeting EEC standards. But the Socialists cheated a lot in the past,
diverted EEC subsidies "illegally". They have now nearly caught up. Their
being able to realize the Olympics will be a litmus test of whether they
are marking progress.
Former Yugoslavia represents a poor area which would be a market
for European goods and a source of some trained cheap labor. Albania is
a different problem, sort of like Haiti, one finds it difficult to imagine
how they can be aided to exit from their situation. At the moment they seem
more capable of given Europe a lot more headaches over the long run than
Serbia.
Finally, there is the problem that the rest of Europe is being a bit too
arrogant in even thinking they can reform anybody? Reforms sometimes
work, witness Japan and Germany after the War, from disaster to first
rate economic powers (being free of excessive military expenditures
also help). Americans feel into the reform trap with Russia, the remedy
being that good old fashion American free entreprise will be the cure of
Russia`s condition. DeGaulle warned us a long time ago in saying that
"ideologies come and go, but cultures remain the same". He anticipated the
collapse of the Soviet house of cards, it fell bloodlessly brought down by
its own contradictions (that Americans believe that Reagan caused it all is
another indications that Americans know nothing about culture and history,
which s bunk anyway). Strangely enough, China did not really collapse and
apparently is doing very nicely ideed. It did evolve, the difference, I
guess, being that Chinese culture permitted evolution, Russian only
revolution.
Anyway, Macedonia is part of the mess, it nearly caused a war with Greece
which considers Alexander the Great "theirs", and the name, Macdedonia,
"theirs". Modern Greeks consider themselves descended from the ancient
Greeks. Gibbons claims that modern Greeks are descendent from Slavic tribes
who invaded the region and learned to speak Greek. I never say that to
Greeks. Americans think "they" mostly came from England, but there are more
German descendents in the USA than from Britain. Every society has its
myths, little lies it tells itself. Sometimes they are funny, sometimes not.
The Serbs have a problem area with myths.
A Planet Visitor
A very fine analysis of the problem in the Balkans. Which, by
the way, according to the Encyclopedia Britannica, is in
EUROPE. And I quote from that site: "BALKANS: The
easternmost of Europe's three great southern peninsulas and,
collectively, the countries located there. For the purposes of
this article, it comprises the states of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia
and..."
A PV
Evleth
> And I quote from that site: "BALKANS: The
> easternmost of Europe's three great southern peninsulas and,
> collectively, the countries located there. For the purposes of
> this article, it comprises the states of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia
> and..."
The ethnic problems of the area are not encouraging. I remember seeing on
picture from WWII of a couple of Croats cutting off the heat of a live Serb
with a hand saw. How people can treat other people is such a fashion defies
the imagination. In any case the hatreds are deep and for reasons.
Obviously nobody forgets and so the "next time around it is a couple of
Serbs killin a Croat, or a Bosnian.
Basically I view this as a European problem, why the Europeans don`t get
their act together and stop calling on the US to help in basically local
problems. Regional intervention groups will more likely have a better idea
of the cultural complexities they are going to encounter, one can expect
a kid from Kansas to know much. The kid from France, England or Germany
might have vacationed "there" at one time, at least set foot in the country.
Anyway, I can only hope rather than expect that the major killing has halted
in that part of the world, at least for a while. But clearly I am
an interventionist in the "internal affairs" of others when it comes to
crimes against humanity.
Earl
St.George_in_St.George, UT :-)
<snip>
>
> A very fine analysis of the problem in the Balkans. Which, by
> the way, according to the Encyclopedia Britannica, is in
> EUROPE. And I quote from that site: "BALKANS: The
> easternmost of Europe's three great southern peninsulas and,
> collectively, the countries located there. For the purposes of
> this article, it comprises the states of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia
> and..."
You know the definition of 'Europe' I prefer?
The second one from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary (at
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary), which I reproduce below....
Main Entry: Eu·rope
Pronunciation: 'yur-&p
Usage: geographical name
1 continent of the eastern hemisphere between Asia & the Atlantic area
3,997,929 square miles (10,354,636 square kilometers), population
498,000,000
2 the European continent exclusive of the British Isles