"secrets" of classic striding -- steep uphill
Kenneth Salzberg
> When I see that a steep hill is too long for me to get up while staying in
> my aerobic zone, I switch to herringbone.
I think this is a wrong approach. The only time you should switch to
herringbone is when the hill is too steep to get grip. Striding is
faster, and somewhat more efficient (because of the glide - see
below). Of course if you are completely gone, and are going to _walk_ up
the hill, by all means use herringbone.
. . .
> But up steep hills I don't think lengthening the glide helps -- because it
> requires a more explosive kick, and turn more up-and-down motion to provide
> enough grip for that. Switching to herringbone gets me out of that whole
> problem.
Of course as the hill get steeper, the glide shortens, but you should
always try for some glide - that's what the poles are for (you also have
shorter poling, begun closer to the body - but we haven't been talking
much about poling)
-Ken S.
***********************************************************
Kenneth Salzberg ksal...@gw.hamline.edu
Hamline University ksal...@piper.hamline.edu
School of Law (651) 523-2354
1536 Hewitt Ave.
Sisu Skier - Team Birke St. Paul, MN 55104
******************************************************************
Ken Roberts
> The only time you should switch to
> herringbone is when the hill is
> too steep to get grip.
Competent classic herringbone does use the grip wax. (That's why it's
easier than herringbone on skating skis.)
My view is that herringbone is just another set of tricks for _enhancing_
grip wax friction. It does this in two ways:
1 - edging the ski makes an uneven pressure distribution on the base of
the ski -- much higher maximum pressure magnitude (This is just the flip
side of same principle as "gliding on a flat ski"). It increases friction
even if the ski is not angled out to the side.
2 - the directed force from pushing the ski out at an angle includes a
forward and upward component.
Now we all know the third _non-herringbone_ way to enhance grip friction:
3 - up-and-down motion to apply additional down-force to the grip zone.
And yet another way to keep going up the hill, without enhancing grip
friction:
4 - push harder on the poles.
For me on a steep hill it's just a question of which _blend_ of those tricks
to use right now. And how I change the blend two seconds later as one
muscle group gets a little tired, or the snow quality shifts slightly.
I _could_ get all the way up the hill using just #3, but that would build up
too much lactate in one leg muscle group. So I could turn off #3, and
switch to lots of #2 and some #1. Of I could use #3 at 50% level together
with #1, and only need a very little bit of #2.
No reason why herringbone has to mean "walking up".
Ken R
Ken Roberts
> . . . as the hill get steeper, the glide shortens,
> but you should always try for some glide --
Maybe _you_ should always get some glide. I definitely have videos of
Daehlie going up a steep hill _not_ using any glide.
> that's what the poles are for
And Daehlie _is_ using his poles effectively in those non-glide video clips:
1 - to help bring his upper body up over the wax pocket of his new ski.
2 - to assist with his leg-push off the new ski.
I see elite racers changing to a different timing of the pole-push when they
go from gentle to steep. On gentle terrain, the timing of the pole-push is
offset from the kick. On steep terrain, it's pretty nearly synchronized.
My theory of that elite racers synchronize poling on steep terrain because:
- - in case their ski slips, the pole is instantly available to stop them
from sliding back, and even continue their momentum forward.
- - they can easily switch back and forth between stride and herringbone as
desired.
Compare with Running: Runners go up hills all the time with no glide.
Elite runners can go up steep hills (both very short and very long) faster
than elite skiers. "Normal" runners go up steep hills faster than "normal"
skiers. How could this be, if glide is so critical?
Perhaps this is a problem of different definitions of "steep". Perhaps two
ranges of slopes that I would call (1) "gentle" and (2) "steep", you would
call (1) "steep" and (2) "ridiculous". To try to help with that, I'll
suggest that what I mean by "steep" is a slope grade of 10% or more.
(That's for XC track skiing -- any backcountry skier I know would call that
"gentle" -- downhill ski resorts would call it "Easiest").
Ken R
P.S. -- Glide on the flats is fun. Glide on downhills is very fun. Glide
on steep uphills is _not_ fun.
phof...@math.uwaterloo.ca
at all. I only regret not seeming to have enough time to re-read a lot
of it and think more carefully about it.
I'd like to raise again one of the more obscure points and concentrate
on it, if I can generate some response. That point is the question of
when to come out of the track and do herringbone. It sounds as though
I disagree with Ken R., at least in what I do, in determinedly avoiding
herringbone until the point where my arms (not legs) would go completely
'under' if I persisted in using them to make up for very little grip.
I'm talking entirely about racing, and training for it, not about
maximizing the enjoyment of that particular ski day. My experience
in races where a close competitor and me are one in the track and the other
out of it on a steep hill always seems to show the herringbone to be
markedly slower. And I think I'm half-decently competent at it---I
certainly agree with the point that herringbone is more about setting
the wax for kick than about edging.
So I have this thing about grimly staying in the track as long as
possible, thinking that my time will be better in the end if I do so.
This may partly relate to the type of course, with most really steep
hills not too long.
I'd be interested in others' opinions on this.
Best, Peter phof...@math.uwaterloo.ca
Eddy Rapid
<phof...@math.uwaterloo.ca> wrote in message
news:2002042813...@fe02.math.uwaterloo.ca...
I have a similar approach, based on my experience.
As the hill gets steeper I try my best to stay in tracks, increasingly press
down with the balls of my feet (I can't seem to create much pressure with my
toes, not having had the benefit of ballets training :-), use my arms more,
and increase cadence. However, I find that there's an optimal point of
cadence, where going higher reduces how well I can press down on the balls
of my feet.
Herringbone is the technique of last resort, when press-down+cadence start
to fail. I also start with a very small herringbone angle, to see if I get
enough grip, and only open it up grudgingly. I find that even hearingboning
I can get some glide and that seems to result in better speed.
Parham.
Ken Roberts
> . . . I have this thing about grimly staying
> in the track as long as possible . . .
> . . . As the hill gets steeper I try my best to stay in tracks . . .
Jumping _out_ of the track is a trick I often try for improving grip up
hills in some waxing conditions.
I learned it last December on my day struggling up one of the long hills at
Soldier Hollow. I stopped and looked back and saw this woman in a fancy
team suit who seemed to be doing better than I was. As she got closer I
could see she was still kicking, not herringboning, but outside the track.
When she reached me I asked her about it, and she said Yes, that's one of
the grip tricks that racers use.
Once I'm kicking outside the track, the line between striding and
herringbone is pretty thin. It's hard for me to see how turning the tip of
my ski 3 cm out from straight suddenly dumps me into some zone of dramatic
inefficiency. Just a different way of doing moose-hoofs on snow.
I got into this "early herringbone" when I was out skiing classic with one
of the coaches at the Silver Star camp, playing with each little steep hill
we encountered. One of his later off-hand comments was that the
inefficiency penalty of herringbone does not have to be large, so I
shouldn't feel like I need to fight hard to make my stride-kick work, just
to avoid using it.
Peter wrote:
> My experience in races where a close competitor
> and me are one in the track and the other out of
> it on a steep hill always seems to show the
> herringbone to be markedly slower.
My experience is that I usually wait several minutes for my competitor to
get tired, before zooming past them on an uphill.
Parham wrote
> (I can't seem to create much pressure
> with my toes, not having had the benefit
> of ballets training :-)
You may be onto something here. Perhaps my success with toe-pressure is
partly because of the way I train. I religiously do repeats of moose-hoofs
up steep hills, often with emphasis on toe-press on initiation and toe-push
on completion of each stride. In weight training I always include serious
sets with my calf muscles. When running on the flats, I frequently run "on
my toes". On my road bike, I've started more often following Caldwell's(?)
ski-race-training suggestion to pedal standing and emphasize toe-push.
This could be a point where Classic racers coming from a background of
serious middle-distance running have an advantage.
Ken
Eddy Rapid
"Ken Roberts" wrote
> Peter wrote:
> > My experience in races where a close competitor
> > and me are one in the track and the other out of
> > it on a steep hill always seems to show the
> > herringbone to be markedly slower.
>
> My experience is that I usually wait several minutes for my competitor to
> get tired, before zooming past them on an uphill.
This is a situation when I decide whether I'm optimizing for speed, or
endurance, and to what extent. On the uphills, glide provides speed at the
expense of endurance. The "stay in tracks for as long as possible" strategy
is a speed strategy; the "herringbone early" is an endurance strategy; and
the "tiny herringbone out of tracks" is a balancing strategy. Which you
choose will depend on the "motor" and the length of the hill, and the length
of the race. If I'm out for a 20km, I optimize for staying in tracks, and
even double pole going minor uphills. If I'm on a marathon I do more of tiny
herringbone out of tracks going up steep up hills.
Seems to me the more glide one you get out of your technique for a given
heart-rate the better off you are. So if I decide on heart-rate profile
based on the endurance requirements of the event, and knowledge of my
"motor", and then decide on the glide strategy given what heart rate regions
I want to stay in. Obviously, it's not quite as simple, or exact, but
perhaps this captures the gist of it.
> Parham wrote
> > (I can't seem to create much pressure
> > with my toes, not having had the benefit
> > of ballets training :-)
>
> You may be onto something here. Perhaps my success with toe-pressure is
> partly because of the way I train. I religiously do repeats of
moose-hoofs
> up steep hills, often with emphasis on toe-press on initiation and
toe-push
> on completion of each stride. In weight training I always include serious
> sets with my calf muscles. When running on the flats, I frequently run
"on
> my toes". On my road bike, I've started more often following
Caldwell's(?)
> ski-race-training suggestion to pedal standing and emphasize toe-push.
Interesting.
What is the advantage of press down with toe vs press down with ball of he
foot? The latter feels muscularly more efficient/easier.
Parham.
jim farrell
>
>
>Herringbone is the technique of last resort, when press-down+cadence start
>to fail. I also start with a very small herringbone angle, to see if I get
>enough grip, and only open it up grudgingly. I find that even hearingboning
>I can get some glide and that seems to result in better speed.
>
>Parham.
>
>
>
still in the track. If you are getting glide on your full herringbone,
you are skating, and in a race, you should disqualify yourself. The
half herringbone: one ski stays in the track and that one can glide.
The other, angled ski cannot glide (or you are doing an approximation
of the marathon skate)
The half herringbone is a good first fall back to losing glide on a
steep uphill.
Jim Farrell
Eddy Rapid
"jim farrell" wrote
> >
> >
> >
> >Herringbone is the technique of last resort, when press-down+cadence
start
> >to fail. I also start with a very small herringbone angle, to see if I
get
> >enough grip, and only open it up grudgingly. I find that even
hearingboning
> >I can get some glide and that seems to result in better speed.
> >
> >Parham.
> >
> >
> I think you can 'half herringbone' and get glide only with the one ski
> still in the track. If you are getting glide on your full herringbone,
> you are skating, and in a race, you should disqualify yourself.
You make a good point for a classic race (although it is allowed on
"endurance tours" such as the Canadian Ski Marathon.)
I'm really talking about classic diagonal stride, kick-glide, with a
_slight_ angle (say 10-20') between the skis and out of the tracks. At what
angle does a diagonal stride out of the tracks become a diagonal skate, and
hence disqualifiable for a classic race?
Parham.
Ken Roberts
> . . . you can 'half herringbone'
Yet another new trick to try -- Thanks.
> . . . If you are getting glide on your full
> herringbone, you are skating, and in a
> race, you should disqualify yourself.
I thought the no-skate rule was that I could not _push_ off a gliding ski.
I was thinking that implied that it was OK to push off an edged ski as long
as I waited for the ski to come to a _full_stop_.
I did not think it was disqualification from the mere fact that I
over-calculated on my leg-push force so my herringbone ski accidentally
glided 3 cm. Otherwise we'd have the tricky enforcement situation that 3 cm
of glide is perfectly OK if my ski tip is pointed straight up the hill, but
absolutely _not_ OK if I angle my ski tip 2 cm out to the side.
Anyway, for me gliding in a narrow herringbone is not a danger -- partly due
to my lack of power -- but also because I normally do it with a "moose-hoof"
rhythm. Which is also the rhythm I tend to use while kicking up steep hills
even without herringbone. (see those video clips of Daehlie). So I've got
little or no glide whether or not I angle the tip of my ski out a little.
Ken
Ken Roberts
> Seems to me the more glide you
> get out of your technique for a given
> heart-rate the better off you are.
If by "better" you mean "higher speed" -- assuming you are also taking
reasonable measures to extend the length of your kick -- then Yes, longer
glide is a (pleasurable) sign of higher speed.
But if you get more glide at the same cadence by shortening the _kick_ --
making the kick more "explosive", then I do not think that you are "better
off".
Because using a shorter-duration kick to deliver the same forward force
impulse requires a higher peak-force intensity during each stroke cycle.
One inference I take from bicycle racing is that lower peak-force intensity
is better than higher (for the same speed and cadence) -- better for
endurance and better for larger sustainable power output for the same
aerobic / lactate load. My reasoning is that if higher peak-force was
better, bicycle racers would do that -- because their equipment easily
allows them that choice. But instead the bicycle coaching I always hear is
about smoothness and "pedaling circles".
If there's a "new pedaling" approach that emphasizes explosive peaks and
restful dead spots in the bicycling stroke cycle, I'd love to know about it.
Seems to me this peak-force concern applies to Skate as well as Classic.
For Classic there's the additional concern that that higher peak-force
requires more grip friction.
Ken
Ken Roberts
> What is the advantage of press down with toe
> vs press down with ball of he foot?
> The latter feels muscularly more efficient/easier.
Toe versus Ball?
Thanks for raising that: Actually I'm not sure. I know my _mental_image_
is to press my toe. But if by "ball of the foot" we mean that rounded area
at the joint connecting the big toe to the rest my foot -- well that's
pretty close to my toe. So if someone put a force sensor just behind me big
toe, it wouldn't surprise me to discover that a significant percentage of my
down-force is going through that "ball".
My main idea is that _any_ shifting of my kicking foot's force-distribution
away from the heel and toward the toe will improve my grip. Especially at
the initiation of the kick, what I am _against_ is weight evenly distributed
along my foot; or worse: skewing the distribution toward my heel.
So I haven't given much attention to the detail of back of toe versus tip of
toe. Now that you mention it, objectively physically focusing all my
pressure through the tip does sound pretty difficult -- like ballet.
What I do feel confident to say is that my Classic racing skis are designed
so the wax pocket and the grip wax zone are centered roughly under the toe.
My experience on both dry land and on snow is that if I focus my pressure on
the center of that center, I get significantly more grip friction. See
http://www.roberts-1.com/xcski/classic/secrets/wax_pocket.htm
Yes it takes more toe-and-calf strength. But to me the satisfaction of
kicking up hills (especially past folks that are herringboning) seems
obviously worth it.
Ken
Eddy Rapid
at the joint connecting the big toe to the rest the foot"... Although I
think the effective area of down-pressure is a bit wider: it includes the
area at the joint to the big toe, and the one or two toes next to it.
I agree with your analysis of focusing on that area for hill climbing grip.
I still remember an excellent coach calling out "dig in with the ball of the
foot" when he was encouraging us to use grip rather than edge to climb up a
steep hill.
Parham.
"Ken Roberts" <KenRob...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Kh%y8.55949$QC1.4...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Gene Goldenfeld
of the tracks and effectiveness of the grip, allow. The
difference striding and a skating herringbone is clear enough in
practice: striding is a different body/arm and leg motion than
herring bone. The motion of the former is primarily forward
intended to create glide, while the motion of the latter is more
to the side with a walk or run (clomp, clomp, clomp). One's skis
can be pointed out to a degree and still be striding, but doing a
gliding herrinbone, i.e., diagonal skate, is another motion
entirely, one element of which is the push off.
Gene