Burn Baby Burn [LSJ]
hamdamcwa
game last night.
Meshenka [4 blood] blocks Volker, Muppet Prince [2 blood].
Prerange, The 'Shenk plays Carrion Crows. Range goes to long.
Volker "makes obscene gestures" as a strike. Meshenka belches out
Breath of the Dragon.
Volker burns, right?
The query came from the player of Volker who mumbled something about
"surely the agg damage from the strike resolves first".
Cheers
DH
Halcyan 2
>
>The query came from the player of Volker who mumbled something about
>"surely the agg damage from the strike resolves first".
Say bye bye to Volker cause he most definitely burns. From 6.4.6 of the
Rulebook:
If both regular damage and aggravated damage are successfully inflicted on a
vampire at the same time, the regular damage is handled first. This only
applies to unprevented damage; damage prevention effects can be used to prevent
the aggravated damage before the normal damage, if the player chooses. If a
vampire is wounded, he goes to torpor after all the damage is handled (see
Torpor, sec. 6.5). If aggravated damage burns him, he goes directly to the ash
heap. He doesn’t go through torpor first.
So Volker takes the 2 Carrion Crows damage first (causing him to be empty as he
burns his two blood to heal the damage). He then takes the 2 agg from Breath of
the Dragon. The first point sends him to torpor and the second point burns him
since he can't burn any blood to prevent his destruction.
Halcyan 2
crispy volker!
Jon Cooper
> If both regular damage and aggravated damage are
> successfully inflicted on a
> vampire at the same time, the regular damage is handled
> first. This only
> applies to unprevented damage; damage prevention effects
> can be used to prevent
> the aggravated damage before the normal damage, if the
> player chooses.
So if volker had PRO and a flesh of marble in play he could have
prevented the AGG first and only taken 1 (due to FOM) normal damage?
--
Direct access to this group with http://web2news.com
http://web2news.com/?rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad
Halcyan 2
>prevented the AGG first and only taken 1 (due to FOM) normal damage?
Correct.
When the opposing minion plays Flesh of Marble and you plan to use some agg
damage, it's usually a good idea to avoid playing any supplemental "normal"
damage that he might decide to take instead of the agg.
Halcyan 2
The Lasombra
<jc.news...@web2news.net> wrote:
>> If both regular damage and aggravated damage are
>> successfully inflicted on a vampire at the same time, the regular damage is handled
>> first. This only applies to unprevented damage; damage prevention effects
>> can be used to prevent the aggravated damage before the normal damage, if the
>> player chooses.
>So if volker had PRO and a flesh of marble in play he could have
>prevented the AGG first and only taken 1 (due to FOM) normal damage?
No.
First he would take 1 normal damage, and then the rest of the damage
would be prevented by the Flesh of Marble.
Take 1 damage and then all excess damage is prevented, not the other
way around.
Name: Flesh of Marble
[Jyhad, V:TES]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Protean
Only usable before range is chosen.
[pro] If the vampire takes -{(and does not prevent)}- more than 1
damage in a round, excess damage is prevented, although aggravated
damage cannot be prevented. This lasts for the duration of the combat.
[PRO] As above, but aggravated damage can be prevented.
http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/downloads/Cardlist.txt
Carpe noctem.
Lasombra
Jon Cooper
> No.
>
> First he would take 1 normal damage, and then the rest of the damage
> would be prevented by the Flesh of Marble.
>
> Take 1 damage and then all excess damage is prevented, not the other
> way around.
>
What i was trying to work out was wether you could choose to order the
prevention so you took normal and prevented the agg.
As Halycan2 states that if you intend doing agg and opponent has a FOM,
leave the crows or other normal damage alone and just hit for 2 agg.....
Where as : 2 crows and 2 agg can be prevented by flesh of marble so you
justr take 1 normal (from crows)
if that makes any sense....
James Coupe
<TheLa...@hotmail.com> writes:
>First he would take 1 normal damage, and then the rest of the damage
>would be prevented by the Flesh of Marble.
Incorrect.
The damage is received simultaneously - during the normal strike phase -
so the preventer may choose which to prevent.
"Ellen may choose which point Flesh of Marble lets through, choosing
from among those points that are all done simultaneously. In this case,
she can let any of the five aggravated points through (and go to
torpor). If Lazvernius had also played a Thoughts Betrayed at inferior,
though, Ellen would be receiving 1 normal damage in addition to the five
aggravated damage, and could have Flesh of Marble allow the 1 normal
point through and prevent the five aggravated."
[LSJ 20011001]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D998C8B.3A71100C%40white-wolf.com
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2
So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D
James Coupe
<jc.news...@web2news.net> writes:
>What i was trying to work out was wether you could choose to order the
>prevention so you took normal and prevented the agg.
Assuming you haven't already taken 1 damage that round...
When a lump comes in all at once, Flesh of Marble (at superior) lets you
choose which you prevent and which you don't, then prevents the rest.
(At inferior, you can't prevent the aggravated, of course.)
robtreasure
> <TheLa...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>First he would take 1 normal damage, and then the rest of the damage
>>would be prevented by the Flesh of Marble.
>
> Incorrect.
Agreed, thought that was weird.
Rob
The Lasombra
wrote:
>In message <3ebbc5c0...@text.giganews.com>, The Lasombra
><TheLa...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>First he would take 1 normal damage, and then the rest of the damage
>>would be prevented by the Flesh of Marble.
>Incorrect.
Not at all.
>The damage is received simultaneously - during the normal strike phase -
>so the preventer may choose which to prevent.
And you must take one point of damage before Flesh of Marble prevents
anything.
Therefore you do not prevent and then take 1, you must take 1 and then
prevent.
>"Ellen may choose which point Flesh of Marble lets through, choosing
>from among those points that are all done simultaneously.
Good so far, matches what I typed.
>n this case,
>she can let any of the five aggravated points through (and go to
>torpor). If Lazvernius had also played a Thoughts Betrayed at inferior,
>though, Ellen would be receiving 1 normal damage in addition to the five
>aggravated damage, and could have Flesh of Marble allow the 1 normal
>point through and prevent the five aggravated."
Which exactly matches what I said.
You have to take 1 point before any is prevented.
>[LSJ 20011001]
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D998C8B.3A71100C%40white-wolf.com
What was it you were thinking was incorrect?
salem
> On Fri, 9 May 2003 16:52:24 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >In message <3ebbc5c0...@text.giganews.com>, The Lasombra
> ><TheLa...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >>First he would take 1 normal damage, and then the rest of the damage
> >>would be prevented by the Flesh of Marble.
>
> >Incorrect.
>
> What was it you were thinking was incorrect?
i think he thought that what you said implied the normal damage had to
be taken rather than the agg. because he snipped it out of context
where you were correcting the previous poster's saying that they
prevent excess and then take the one point, which in their case they
had chosen to be normal damage.
am i about 6 hours behind on this thread? i usually am but if not i
hope that helps.
salem.
The Lasombra
wrote:
>> >In message <3ebbc5c0...@text.giganews.com>, The Lasombra
>> ><TheLa...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> >>First he would take 1 normal damage, and then the rest of the damage
>> >>would be prevented by the Flesh of Marble.
>> >Incorrect.
>[snip]
>> What was it you were thinking was incorrect?
>i think he thought that what you said implied the normal damage had to
>be taken rather than the agg. because he snipped it out of context
>where you were correcting the previous poster's saying that they
>prevent excess and then take the one point, which in their case they
>had chosen to be normal damage.
>am i about 6 hours behind on this thread? i usually am but if not i
>hope that helps.
You have it right.
scrote
> wrote:
>
> >In message <3ebbc5c0...@text.giganews.com>, The Lasombra
> ><TheLa...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >>First he would take 1 normal damage, and then the rest of the damage
> >>would be prevented by the Flesh of Marble.
>
> >Incorrect.
>
> Not at all.
>
>
> >The damage is received simultaneously - during the normal strike phase -
> >so the preventer may choose which to prevent.
>
> And you must take one point of damage before Flesh of Marble prevents
> anything.
>
> Therefore you do not prevent and then take 1, you must take 1 and then
> prevent.
>
> >"Ellen may choose which point Flesh of Marble lets through, choosing
> >from among those points that are all done simultaneously.
>
> Good so far, matches what I typed.
>
> >n this case,
> >she can let any of the five aggravated points through (and go to
> >torpor). If Lazvernius had also played a Thoughts Betrayed at inferior,
> >though, Ellen would be receiving 1 normal damage in addition to the five
> >aggravated damage, and could have Flesh of Marble allow the 1 normal
> >point through and prevent the five aggravated."
> >
>
> >http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D998C8B.3A71100C%40white-wolf.com
> Which exactly matches what I said.
> You have to take 1 point before any is prevented.
>
So Flesh circumvents the regular ordering of combat, by first allowing
dmg. through and then preventing (instead of the other way around)?
This doesn't mean that if both regular and agg. dmg are being dealt
that the point let through by the Flesh *must* be a normal point (as
normal dmg would *normally* be healed first...before aggravated)?
I mean, if you really wanted to go to torpor, then you could, right,
per(see above):
"Ellen may choose which point Flesh of Marble lets through,choosing
from among those points that are all done simultaneously. "
Thanks,
-scrote
James Coupe
<mud...@hotmail.com> writes:
>So Flesh circumvents the regular ordering of combat, by first allowing
>dmg. through and then preventing (instead of the other way around)?
When, say, 4 points hit you simultaneously with superior Flesh of Marble
(and you've not already taken a point that would satisfy Flesh of
Marble), one point goes through - your choice - and then Flesh of Marble
prevents the rest.
Effectively, the strike is resolved (assuming the damage is coming from
a strike), and all the damage is tallied.
At this point, you play all your damage prevention.
When you finish playing damage prevention, Flesh of Marble kicks in.
You must be taking one damage. Then Flesh of Marble prevents the rest.
Then you heal damage.
You can decide which point you take, if resolved simultaneously.
This can be important for a number of reasons. For instance, for those
particularly lethal and oh-so-common Vicissitude/Protean combinations,
you might find that a Gangrel hitting you for a point of Claw damage and
a point of Carrion Crows damage might provide a tempting option of *not*
preventing the aggravated damage - because you've played Blood of Acid.
At that point, taking the point of aggravated damage - because it's from
the opponent - will send a point back, whereas preventing the hand
damage because you're taking the Carrion Crows damage won't send
anything back.
>This doesn't mean that if both regular and agg. dmg are being dealt
>that the point let through by the Flesh *must* be a normal point (as
>normal dmg would *normally* be healed first...before aggravated)?
It can be either.
Damage is healed *after* it is prevented. And yes, during healing, you
handle the normal damage first.
During damage prevention, however, the damage is unordered.
Analogously, when you play Skin of Rock in the above situation (with no
Flesh of Marble around, to simplify things), you can choose to prevent
the aggravated or the normal, whichever you choose.
>I mean, if you really wanted to go to torpor, then you could, right,
>per(see above):
You could.
>"Ellen may choose which point Flesh of Marble lets through,choosing
>from among those points that are all done simultaneously. "
Right.
If, for instance, you have a point of aggravated damage coming and a
point of normal damage, you might want to take the aggravated damage.
For instance, your opponent rushed you, played Claw before range was
determined[0] to cycle, and then draws Carrion Crows and plays it. Now
you, as the reacting minion, play Flesh of Marble.
Often, you'd want to take the normal damage and prevent the aggravated
damage, right? Right.
However, imagine that your opponent had played Drawing out the Beast,
too.
Drawing Out the Beast cannot be prevented - so you'll take one damage of
either type to satisfy Flesh of Marble, prevent the other. Then when
you reach the press step, you'll take the Drawing Out the Beast damage
too.
If you prevent the aggravated damage, you take one normal damage (okay)
then one normal damage.
If you prevent the normal damage, you take one aggravated damage - which
wounds you, so you don't burn a blood to heal - and hit torpor. The
press step never happens.
If you're on one blood, what's the difference? On both, you hit torpor.
In one, you hit torpor with one blood left, in the other, you hit torpor
whilst empty.
If the opponent hits you with Amaranth - which he can, in either
instance - you have the blood for Crimson Fury. (Or if you're untapped
and reacting to a later diablerie action.)
You can pay one blood towards the cost of being rescued, or you have one
blood closer to paying for your own rescue if, for instance, you have a
Blood Doll on you.
You might also want to go to torpor for various reasons.
The opposing Methuselah is on 4 pool and you are on 4 pool. You have a
Bounty on you. Your vampire - whoever it is - goes to torpor, but still
has blood on them for later rescuing and the like. But you're playing a
Gangrel Royalty deck and - gasp - when you played the Flesh of Marble,
you drew a Parity Shift. So if you take 1 damage, you're one blood down
- maybe Bear Paw with 3 blood, not 4. If you take the aggravated
damage, you hit torpor, he gets 1 pool, you call Parity Shift for 5
(first ousting in the game) and lo, you get a victory point. And no-one
fancies diablerising you when you have the votes...
Then there are plenty of cards which do function with torpor. You might
have had Fame played on you, for instance. Again, that could move you
in range for Parity Shift - but you didn't want to lose all the blood on
you to do it.
And so on.
[0]
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=selm=941jnn%24jnr%241%40nnrp1.deja.com
just in case you're wondering if that's allowable.
scrote
> In message <b618d4f6.03050...@posting.google.com>, scrote
> <mud...@hotmail.com> writes:
> >So Flesh circumvents the regular ordering of combat, by first allowing
> >dmg. through and then preventing (instead of the other way around)?
>
> When, say, 4 points hit you simultaneously with superior Flesh of Marble
> (and you've not already taken a point that would satisfy Flesh of
> Marble), one point goes through - your choice - and then Flesh of Marble
> prevents the rest.
>
> Effectively, the strike is resolved (assuming the damage is coming from
> a strike), and all the damage is tallied.
>
> At this point, you play all your damage prevention.
>
> When you finish playing damage prevention, Flesh of Marble kicks in.
> You must be taking one damage. Then Flesh of Marble prevents the rest.
>
> Then you heal damage.
When you say "You must be taking one damage" do you just mean that
there must be at least one point of unprevented dmg. left after
prevention has been played (two points, if you actually want to get
use out of your FoM)? Then you just elect which point the FoM will not
be preventing...
<aside>
What if someone brother's blood'd your minion to prevent the point you
were letting through for the FoM? Brother's Blood says heal, or,
prevent.
Can they really prevent that one point? As it appears to be happening
after the prevention step.
If they heal it, what will happen?I can think of several scenarios,
that I won't bother to list, I'll just wait to see what your reply is
:)
</aside>
I mean, flesh says:
Flesh of Marble [Jyhad, V:TES]
Only usable before range is chosen.
[pro] If the vampire takes [(and does not prevent)] more than 1 damage
in a round, excess damage is prevented, although aggravated damage
cannot be prevented. This lasts for the duration of the combat.
[PRO] As above, but aggravated damage can be prevented.
See, I would have thought that "If the vampire takes [(and does not
prevent)]"
would mean that the vampire must burn a blood to heal the first point
of dmg. (effectively "taking" it) and then the FoM kicks in
(circumventing the regular prevention step).
Obviously this is wrong, but I can't seem to get a handle on your
explanation.
"6.4.6. Damage Resolution
Any remaining damage (damage that was not prevented) is successfully
inflicted. The damage is then healed (if the victim is a vampire) or
causes a loss of life points (if the victim is an ally or retainer)."
So I guess the one point for "taken" for the Flesh could be considered
"inflicted" (which is decided before the "heal" step)?
However,
"6.4.6. Damage Resolution
If both regular damage and aggravated damage are successfully
inflicted on a vampire at the same time, the regular damage is handled
first. This only applies to unprevented damage; damage prevention
effects can be used to prevent the aggravated damage before the normal
damage, if the player chooses."
So what i am getting at, you have a point being "taken", which i have
assumed (incorrectly?) to be synonymous with "inflicted". So, before
FoM can kick in, all unprevented dmg. would be considered inflicted,
thus regular stuff would be handled first. That first point that gets
through would then trigger the FoM which, by cardtext, ovverides the
regular way in that the rest of the inflicted dmg. is handled.
It's not right, I know, but your explanation didn't sort the issue out
for me.
Maybe someone could see their way to showing me where exactly, my
understanding goes askew?
I don't (can't? :) understand how the conclusion,
> >"Ellen may choose which point Flesh of Marble lets through,choosing
> >from among those points that are all done simultaneously. "
is arrived at.
This either:
> You can decide which point you take, if resolved simultaneously.
<snip reason to take agg>
> >This doesn't mean that if both regular and agg. dmg are being dealt
> >that the point let through by the Flesh *must* be a normal point (as
> >normal dmg would *normally* be healed first...before aggravated)?
>
> It can be either.
>
> Damage is healed *after* it is prevented. And yes, during healing, you
> handle the normal damage first.
>
> During damage prevention, however, the damage is unordered.
>
> Analogously, when you play Skin of Rock in the above situation (with no
> Flesh of Marble around, to simplify things), you can choose to prevent
> the aggravated or the normal, whichever you choose.
Yeah, but that's the point. To me , skin of rock is not analogous to
(with?)FoM. One prevents, then lets dmg. through. The other *seems* to
let dmg. through, then prevent. So while dmg is unordered during
prevention, it isn't when considered "inflicted"...the basis of my
understanding...
>
<snip more reasons to go to torpor>
>
I can't get this link to work...man, I got problems today...
James Coupe
<mud...@hotmail.com> writes:
>When you say "You must be taking one damage" do you just mean that
>there must be at least one point of unprevented dmg. left after
>prevention has been played (two points, if you actually want to get
>use out of your FoM)? Then you just elect which point the FoM will not
>be preventing...
For Flesh of Marble to actually have any use, there would have to be two
points left, yes.
However, you could just play Skin of Steel or something, if it worked
out better for you. The clarified text is "takes (and does not
prevent)".
But when you get to the end of playing damage prevention - so we know
you haven't prevented it any other way - the unprevented damage is
handled by Flesh of Marble.
Of that batch, you can then elect which point Flesh of Marble is
handling, yup.
This can be useful, even when dealing with just the inferior version.
For instance, you get Song of Serenity thrown on you and you get a
single point of hand damage and a single point of Carrion Crows damage.
You can elect to take the Carrion Crows damage (arrives in the same
batch) and prevent the hand damage - useful for Pulled Fangs, for
instance. The Carrion Crows damage doesn't count towards Pulled Fangs,
since it's environmental.
Once Flesh of Marble has let one damage - that wasn't otherwise
prevented - through, all the rest of the damage is prevented.
Additionally, the point that you take doesn't have to be a point that
could have been prevented by it anyway. For instance, if you take 1
aggravated hand damage and 2 Carrion Crows damage at once, you fulfill
the requirements of Flesh of Marble. You take one damage, and the other
2 are prevented.
><aside>
>What if someone brother's blood'd your minion to prevent the point you
>were letting through for the FoM? Brother's Blood says heal, or,
>prevent.
Brothers Blood doesn't prevent damage.
It either heals damage - that is, once you handled all the damage
prevention, you heal damage by burning blood, but Brother's Blood lets
someone else do it for you - or burns blood to prevent destruction,
which is the process similar to healing, but for aggravated damage.
This is not preventing damage - just someone else burns blood for it.
It also can't stop you becoming wounded by a single point of aggravated
damage on an unwounded vampire, because that isn't healed (aggravated
damage cannot be healed) and no blood can be burnt for it by another
vampire, because the wounding point doesn't do that.
>Can they really prevent that one point? As it appears to be happening
>after the prevention step.
Moot, as explained - it's handled after damage prevention, because it
isn't damage prevention.
>If they heal it, what will happen?
If someone else heals damage for you, they burn the blood necessary.
Nothing else.
>See, I would have thought that "If the vampire takes [(and does not
>prevent)]"
>
>would mean that the vampire must burn a blood to heal the first point
>of dmg. (effectively "taking" it) and then the FoM kicks in
>(circumventing the regular prevention step).
>
>Obviously this is wrong, but I can't seem to get a handle on your
>explanation.
At the end of damage prevention, you would normally move directly to
applying damage (and healing/burning to avoid destruction, and all
that).
Instead, Flesh of Marble kicks in here.
One point of the remaining damage is taken, and not prevented. The rest
is prevented.
Then you move to healing.
>So what i am getting at, you have a point being "taken", which i have
>assumed (incorrectly?) to be synonymous with "inflicted". So, before
>FoM can kick in, all unprevented dmg. would be considered inflicted,
>thus regular stuff would be handled first. That first point that gets
>through would then trigger the FoM which, by cardtext, ovverides the
>regular way in that the rest of the inflicted dmg. is handled.
"Note however, as stated in the
rulebook, damage is inflicted in one step (this simultaneous one), and
handled (healed, prevented, etc.) in the next (non-simultaneous with
this one). See "Steal Blood" in [6.4.5]." [LSJ 20030311]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3E6DDA85.3080206%40white-wolf.com
You determine that the point is inflicted in the first step, and then
the rest is prevented. Normally, once you stop playing damage
prevention, the unprevented damage is just taken. But Flesh of Marble
has text indicating otherwise.
Flesh of Marble creates this little timing bit for itself, of course.
Juts like every other card that does slightly different things to
normal.
>I don't (can't? :) understand how the conclusion,
>
>> >"Ellen may choose which point Flesh of Marble lets through,choosing
>> >from among those points that are all done simultaneously. "
>
> is arrived at.
The damage arrives simultaneously. You can choose to take any of the
points, and then prevent the rest.
Flesh of Marble allows this because of its specific effect.
>> Analogously, when you play Skin of Rock in the above situation (with no
>> Flesh of Marble around, to simplify things), you can choose to prevent
>> the aggravated or the normal, whichever you choose.
>
>Yeah, but that's the point. To me , skin of rock is not analogous to
>(with?)FoM. One prevents, then lets dmg. through. The other *seems* to
>let dmg. through, then prevent.
Correct. But because the damage is all there, unordered, you choose
which to let through. Just as you can choose which to prevent.
>So while dmg is unordered during
>prevention, it isn't when considered "inflicted"
It is. Damage is inflicting during one step, and healed during another.
During healing, normal damage is handled first, then aggravated damage.
The vampire takes the damage, prevents some of it, and then heals
afterwards.
Specifically:
"If both regular damage and aggravated damage are successfully inflicted
on a vampire at the same time, the regular damage is handled first. This
only applies to unprevented damage; damage prevention effects can be
used to prevent the aggravated damage before the normal damage, if the
player chooses." [6.4.6]
Order doesn't apply until you're healing unprevented damage. And damage
is inflicted before damage is healed.
In summary:
Flesh of Marble can see what damage you're taking first. Then it
prevents the rest. The damage isn't ordered, because we're preventing
damage, not healing it. It gets to do this by having card text that
does so. As you say, normally you can't finish preventing damage, and
then prevent some more. But Flesh of Marble is a special case, by card
text.
See also [1.4] - Flesh of Marble has unusual timing.
>I can't get this link to work...man, I got problems today...
>
>> [0]
>> http://groups.google.com/groups?q=selm=941jnn%24jnr%241%40nnrp1.deja.com
>> just in case you're wondering if that's allowable.
Ack, sorry, I snipped the URL badly, leaving in the "q=" extraneously.
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=941jnn%24jnr%241%40nnrp1.deja.com>