Dunnett/Lymond homages in SF
Kate Nepveu
reminded me again that a lot of sf writers seem to have been
influenced by Dorothy Dunnett, particularly her Lymond chronicles.
These are, for those who aren't familiar with them, a six-book series
of historical novels. They are highly complex in their plotting,
characters, and presentation (which last is a way of saying "it can
take a while to figure out what's going on"). They are rich in
allusions, and the arts (particularly music, IIRC) are central to the
lives of the characters. There's thrills and heartbreak in abundance
(the race at the start of book 2 is one of the most exciting things
I've read, ever, while the end of book 4 is _the_ most disturbing
thing I've read, ever). And there are wonderful characters, in
particular Francis Crawford of Lymond, who is quicksilver brilliant,
enigmatic, outwardly controlled, inwardly passionate, and a whole
bunch of other adjectives that I can't really do justice to because I
haven't read the books for a few years.
Characters in sf that I think owe a lot to Lymond specifically:
Brandon Arkad in the Exordium books. Most of the time we don't get his
POV; well-hidden motives that come out during the course of the
series; startling competence and deep emotional attachments.
James Cobham in _Freedom & Necessity_, Brust & Bull. I have wibbled
about this previously, the short version of which is, can't you just
see Lymond using "agile" as the one word to describe himself?
Guy Gavriel Kay: less in a Lymond-character, it seems to me, than in
feel (which I'm sure is very helpful, isn't it?). Though Diarmuid, I
guess.
Who else?
--
Kate Nepveu
E-mail: kne...@steelypips.org *new*
Home: http://www.steelypips.org/
Book log: http://www.steelypips.org/weblog/
Richard Horton
wrote:
>Brandon Arkad in the Exordium books. Most of the time we don't get his
>POV; well-hidden motives that come out during the course of the
>series; startling competence and deep emotional attachments.
>
>James Cobham in _Freedom & Necessity_, Brust & Bull. I have wibbled
>about this previously, the short version of which is, can't you just
>see Lymond using "agile" as the one word to describe himself?
>
>Guy Gavriel Kay: less in a Lymond-character, it seems to me, than in
>feel (which I'm sure is very helpful, isn't it?). Though Diarmuid, I
>guess.
Sherwood Smith and Guy Kay have openly admitted their debts to Dunnett
(perhaps on this very newsgroup), so you are certainly correct there.
I see some Lymond influence in both main characters of Ellen Kushner's
_Swordspoint_. Oddly split -- though perhaps more of it is contained
in the guy who isn't a great fencer (name forgotten now -- Alec?)
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.tangentonline.com)
Elaine Thompson
<rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote:
snip
>
>I see some Lymond influence in both main characters of Ellen Kushner's
>_Swordspoint_. Oddly split -- though perhaps more of it is contained
>in the guy who isn't a great fencer (name forgotten now -- Alec?)
Yeah, Alec.
there's reportedly a Niccolo homage in Mary Gentle's ASH. I bounce
off Gentle, so can't confirm from my own reading.
The Norton/Edgehill series has been said to have a Lymond-y hero. I
couldn't stand it, which got in the way of spotting such.
Janny Wurts' Arithon is a definite Lymond clone. Or was in the first
book.
Mary Doria Russell dedicated SPARROW to Dunnett, or commented about D
in her afterword (or something) - any homages in it? I only got part
way through before it hit the wall.
Tanith Lee had a hero - Cyrion? - who was pretty close to Lymond.
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Elio M. García
> The Norton/Edgehill series has been said to have a Lymond-y hero. I
> couldn't stand it, which got in the way of spotting such.
He's more of a Scarlet Pimpernel than a Lymond, really.
> Janny Wurts' Arithon is a definite Lymond clone. Or was in the first
> book.
True. I was thinking of him as a prime suspect when the thread
started. Interestingly, I've never seen anyone ask Wurts about whether
she's read the Lymond books or not.
--
[Upon a Dzurlord learning of the murder of a critic by a painter]
"And it was well done, too. I'd have done the same, only-"
"Yes?"
"I don't paint." (Steven Brust, _The Phoenix Guards_)
Elio M. García, Jr. (el...@swipnet.se) -- www.westeros.org
Genevieve
> On Mon, 16 Sep 2002 01:21:27 GMT, Richard Horton
> <rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>
> snip
>
> >
> >I see some Lymond influence in both main characters of Ellen Kushner's
> >_Swordspoint_. Oddly split -- though perhaps more of it is contained
> >in the guy who isn't a great fencer (name forgotten now -- Alec?)
>
>
> Yeah, Alec.
>
> there's reportedly a Niccolo homage in Mary Gentle's ASH. I bounce
> off Gentle, so can't confirm from my own reading.
What, Angelotti? I haven't read much of the Niccolo books, but
Angelotti is really the only major character who is Italian in the ASH
books.
Lymond himself has a lot of Peter Wimsey in him, yes?
There's a subthread waiting to happen (actually, it has happened, I
think)- brilliant books that one can't get into, for whatever reason.
Mine are the Dunnett books and Freedom and Necessity. Oh, and Little,
Big. I hide my head in shame, and promise that I do make attempts
from time to time to read them. It just never seems to get me very
far.
Genevieve
Jerry Friedman
> I've been reading the Exordium series (review forthcoming), and they
> reminded me again that a lot of sf writers seem to have been
> influenced by Dorothy Dunnett, particularly her Lymond chronicles.
>
> These are, for those who aren't familiar with them, a six-book series
> of historical novels. They are highly complex in their plotting,
> characters, and presentation (which last is a way of saying "it can
> take a while to figure out what's going on"). They are rich in
> allusions, and the arts (particularly music, IIRC)
Also poetry, as in the cold-turkey treatment in volume *mild spoiler*.
> are central to the
> lives of the characters. There's thrills and heartbreak in abundance
> (the race at the start of book 2 is one of the most exciting things
> I've read, ever, while the end of book 4 is _the_ most disturbing
> thing I've read, ever). And there are wonderful characters, in
> particular Francis Crawford of Lymond, who is quicksilver brilliant,
> enigmatic, outwardly controlled, inwardly passionate, and a whole
> bunch of other adjectives that I can't really do justice to because I
> haven't read the books for a few years.
"Superhuman"?
> Characters in sf that I think owe a lot to Lymond specifically:
>
...
>
> James Cobham in _Freedom & Necessity_, Brust & Bull. I have wibbled
> about this previously, the short version of which is, can't you just
> see Lymond using "agile" as the one word to describe himself?
...
I agree. Also the refusal to accept help and the pose of
imperturbability, which can't possibly last.
>
> Who else?
Corwin? Except that vulgarity is more one of his resources than
Lymond's. The complexity of the Amber books is also a lot like that
of the Lymond books. (Anglice: I gave up on keeping track.)
It's hard to tell who owes a lot to Lymond, since he owes a lot to
Lord Peter Wimsey (his conversations with, uh, Christian in the first
volume could be straight out of Sayers), the Saint, and probably
Raffles and Flashman and supermen like that. In fact, one of my main
criticisms of the Lymond books (I've read the first four so far) is
that he seems very twentieth-century to me. Could be my lack of
knowledge of the sixteenth century.
--
Jerry Friedman
Elaine Thompson
wrote:
>On Sun, 15 Sep 2002 19:23:55 -0700, Ela...@KEThompson.org says...
>
snip
>
>> Janny Wurts' Arithon is a definite Lymond clone. Or was in the first
>> book.
>
> True. I was thinking of him as a prime suspect when the thread
>started. Interestingly, I've never seen anyone ask Wurts about whether
>she's read the Lymond books or not.
Friend of mine heard Wurts talk about them once, on some panel or
other. Might have been at the SF Worldcon.
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Elaine Thompson
>Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote in message news:<spfaoukv78mvvq2id...@4ax.com>...
>> On Mon, 16 Sep 2002 01:21:27 GMT, Richard Horton
>> <rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> snip
>>
>> >
>> >I see some Lymond influence in both main characters of Ellen Kushner's
>> >_Swordspoint_. Oddly split -- though perhaps more of it is contained
>> >in the guy who isn't a great fencer (name forgotten now -- Alec?)
>>
>>
>> Yeah, Alec.
>>
>> there's reportedly a Niccolo homage in Mary Gentle's ASH. I bounce
>> off Gentle, so can't confirm from my own reading.
>
>What, Angelotti? I haven't read much of the Niccolo books, but
>Angelotti is really the only major character who is Italian in the ASH
>books.
shrug. Can't say, but the Niccolo of the Dunnett title isn't really
Italian, he just deals a lot with them and has a bank in Venice.
>
>Lymond himself has a lot of Peter Wimsey in him, yes?
so they say. It doesn't strike me as much as it does other people,
but I'm not a big Sayers fan. I only really like MURDER MUST
ADVERTISE.
>
>There's a subthread waiting to happen (actually, it has happened, I
>think)- brilliant books that one can't get into, for whatever reason.
>Mine are the Dunnett books and Freedom and Necessity. Oh, and Little,
>Big. I hide my head in shame, and promise that I do make attempts
>from time to time to read them. It just never seems to get me very
>far.
If it makes you feel better, I also bounce off Gene Wolfe, whom by all
descriptions I ought to love.
FREEDOM AND NECESSITY I have yet to finish; been picking it up and
putting it down for a few years now.
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Trent Goulding
>>> there's reportedly a Niccolo homage in Mary Gentle's ASH. I bounce
>>> off Gentle, so can't confirm from my own reading.
>>
>>What, Angelotti? I haven't read much of the Niccolo books, but
>>Angelotti is really the only major character who is Italian in the ASH
>>books.
>
>shrug. Can't say, but the Niccolo of the Dunnett title isn't really
>Italian, he just deals a lot with them and has a bank in Venice.
Yeah, Niccolo is really Nicholas vander Poel, and he's actually um,
what was the ethnic designation at that point in history, Flemish?
Zeelander? at any rate, he grew up in Bruges; he has (of course)
Scottish ties that come to light as the story proceeds. Given that
the eight novels are in many ways an (extremely interesting)
travelogue of the Western world in the fifteenth century, Nicholas
strikes me as a very cosmopolitan fellow who settles in and is
comfortable in just about whatever society he finds himself in.
Back to the _ASH_ connection, though. By some coincidence, I
actually read Ash shortly after finishing the Niccolo series, and
the connection that struck me has to do with the province of
Burgundy. Much is made of Burgundy in Ash; it is, after all, the
place that Ash's mercenary company is defending against the
Carthaginians, and the modern day researchers point out that
Burgundy, which at that point in history was a major player on the
political stage, never survived as an important or independent
entity after Charles, Duke of Burgundy, was killed in a war.
This is important in Niccolo, because that war is portrayed in
passing in volume six; Niccolo's mercenary company is part of the
fight and is near or on the scene when Charles is killed.
There may be more homage or connection than that, but that's what
immediately struck my eye.
--
Trent Goulding trent.g...@mho.com
Booklog: http://home.mho.net/trent.goulding/books/blcurrent.html
Kate Nepveu
>I see some Lymond influence in both main characters of Ellen Kushner's
>_Swordspoint_. Oddly split -- though perhaps more of it is contained
>in the guy who isn't a great fencer (name forgotten now -- Alec?)
The boyfriend from hell? Yes, that's Alec. I've been meaning to
re-read that. Dangerously brittle when under the influence of
suppressed emotions is my primary recollection of Alec, which would do
reasonably well for Lymond. And verbal fencing, though not quite so
bitchy.
Kate Nepveu
>there's reportedly a Niccolo homage in Mary Gentle's ASH. I bounce
>off Gentle, so can't confirm from my own reading.
I read all of _Ash_, and when I was done said, "You know, I really
didn't enjoy that very much."
I haven't read Niccolo, but I just can't imagine _Ash_ having anything
to do with Dunnett.
>Mary Doria Russell dedicated SPARROW to Dunnett, or commented about D
>in her afterword (or something) - any homages in it? I only got part
>way through before it hit the wall.
Hmm, well, I'm not sure that any of the characters are really close
analogues, but it's possible that some of the flavor is similar, or
maybe the way Emilio reacts to his big crisis. I haven't re-read it
since the sequel and it's now in storage.
Kate Nepveu
>Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote in message
>news:<p4j6ougeob951fecn...@news.earthlink.net>...
[Lymond books]
>> And there are wonderful characters, in
>> particular Francis Crawford of Lymond, who is quicksilver brilliant,
>> enigmatic, outwardly controlled, inwardly passionate, and a whole
>> bunch of other adjectives that I can't really do justice to because I
>> haven't read the books for a few years.
>"Superhuman"?
Hmm, I thought I had "frighteningly competent" in there somewhere;
apparently not.
>> Characters in sf that I think owe a lot to Lymond specifically:
>> James Cobham in _Freedom & Necessity_, Brust & Bull. I have wibbled
>> about this previously, the short version of which is, can't you just
>> see Lymond using "agile" as the one word to describe himself?
>I agree. Also the refusal to accept help and the pose of
>imperturbability, which can't possibly last.
Which is partly what I was trying to get at with the control. Also, I
can't remember if it would be accurate to talk about rigid separation
of spheres of life in regard to Lymond, alas.
>> Who else?
>Corwin? Except that vulgarity is more one of his resources than
>Lymond's. The complexity of the Amber books is also a lot like that
>of the Lymond books. (Anglice: I gave up on keeping track.)
Corwin, to me, goes under "First Person Smartass," and so I think of
him as pretty distinct: one of the key characteristics of Lymond, to
me, is that we hardly ever see events from his POV. There's a certain
mystery there that's important to my conception of the character
>It's hard to tell who owes a lot to Lymond, since he owes a lot to
>Lord Peter Wimsey (his conversations with, uh, Christian in the first
>volume could be straight out of Sayers), the Saint, and probably
>Raffles and Flashman and supermen like that. In fact, one of my main
>criticisms of the Lymond books (I've read the first four so far) is
>that he seems very twentieth-century to me. Could be my lack of
>knowledge of the sixteenth century.
My historical knowledge is terrible, so I couldn't say. Anyone else?
I suspect that underneath Wimsey and Lymond have a lot in common, but
their choices of camouflage are sufficiently different that the
comparision didn't immediately spring to mind.
Richard Horton
<trent.g...@mho.com> wrote:
>Back to the _ASH_ connection, though. By some coincidence, I
>actually read Ash shortly after finishing the Niccolo series, and
>the connection that struck me has to do with the province of
>Burgundy. Much is made of Burgundy in Ash; it is, after all, the
>place that Ash's mercenary company is defending against the
>Carthaginians, and the modern day researchers point out that
>Burgundy, which at that point in history was a major player on the
>political stage, never survived as an important or independent
>entity after Charles, Duke of Burgundy, was killed in a war.
>
>This is important in Niccolo, because that war is portrayed in
>passing in volume six; Niccolo's mercenary company is part of the
>fight and is near or on the scene when Charles is killed.
>
>There may be more homage or connection than that, but that's what
>immediately struck my eye.
That's the connection that struck me -- indeed, I wrote about it,
perhaps here, simply noting the coincidence that I was reading Ash at
roughly the same time as one of the Niccolo books, and that it was
neat that they both treated the same historical period, and
particularly Charles of Burgundy, though rather differently.
I don't think any of Mary's characters is much at all like Niccolo,
though I think echoes of John of Gaunt (is that the name) might be
found in Angelotti?? Maybe??
Sharon Goetz
rrho...@prodigy.net says...
> I don't think any of Mary's characters is much at all like Niccolo,
> though I think echoes of John of Gaunt (is that the name) might be
> found in Angelotti?? Maybe??
Hmm--which version of John of Gaunt? I mean, the conception of which
historian(s) or historiographers? John of Gaunt was an uncle of Richard
II of England (ruled 1377-99) and a powerful force / major irritation
during the regency--is that the man you mean? His London residence was
burned as part of the Peasants' Revolt of 1381.
sharon
Richard Horton
I am conflating a Dunnett character with the historical character -- I
can't rightly remember the name of the character from the Lymond
series.
Sharon Goetz
kne...@steelypips.org says...
> jerry_f...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) wrote:
> >It's hard to tell who owes a lot to Lymond, since he owes a lot to
> >Lord Peter Wimsey (his conversations with, uh, Christian in the first
> >volume could be straight out of Sayers), the Saint, and probably
> >Raffles and Flashman and supermen like that. In fact, one of my main
> >criticisms of the Lymond books (I've read the first four so far) is
> >that he seems very twentieth-century to me. Could be my lack of
> >knowledge of the sixteenth century.
>
> My historical knowledge is terrible, so I couldn't say. Anyone else?
I'm not much good with sixteenth-century Scotland, but most of the
trappings (characters other than Lymond, places, situations) seem
plausible enough from a fifteenth-century England filter--that's as late
as I go. I'd agree, though, that Lymond himself feels rather twentieth-
century; unless things changed drastically in insular economies after
the fifteenth century, even a duke's brother wouldn't have had quite the
wherewithal to travel as widely as Lymond does and to gain the
opportunities for, well, networking that he has. Also, though printing
had taken off by Lymond's time, at least in London and Edinburgh, many
of the snippets he quotes are high or late medieval. The bulk of those
just wouldn't have been readily available, either in print or in
manuscript; some medieval texts were printed (entire or excerpted), but
much of the medieval material Elspeth Morrison cites in _The Dunnett
Companion_ is fairly obscure even for medievalists with access to
research libraries. (Not only must Lymond have had a kickass tutor as a
child and have read himself to sleep each night that he wasn't plotting
something (umm...), but his library must've been significantly better
than Peter Wimsey's, and Wimsey was a notable collector.) His magic
memory for quotations is reasonable, aside from its unusual breadth--the
simple version is, in a world with access to significantly fewer books
than we with our libraries and bookshops, one'd be likely to spend more
time poring over any single text. A couple centuries before Lymond, at
least, rote memory wasn't denigrated as inferior to the ability to
synthesize (as current pedagogy tends to hold).
Then too, the twentieth-century flavor is entirely period from a certain
perspective. Most of the best (most-aesthetically-pleasing-to-modern-
readers) literature we have from the Middle Ages and early modern period
is horribly presentist, intent on drawing characters (sometimes borrowed
or inherited from earlier texts) so that they'd suit a writer's time and
mores. If you're writing for a patron--a paying audience of one instead
of 10,000--it helps if the patron can understand and identify with the
hero....
sharon
Elaine Thompson
<rrho...@prodigy.net> wrote:
snip
oops, snipped someone else's attribution - sorry.
The other person wrote:
>>
>>This is important in Niccolo, because that war is portrayed in
>>passing in volume six; Niccolo's mercenary company is part of the
>>fight and is near or on the scene when Charles is killed.
/Nitpick/ book 7.
snip
>
>I don't think any of Mary's characters is much at all like Niccolo,
>though I think echoes of John of Gaunt (is that the name) might be
>found in Angelotti?? Maybe??
ITYM John Le Grant. John of Gaunt was one of Edward III's sons and
contemporary with Chaucer. John Le Grant was the artillery person in
Dunnett who survived the fall of Constantinople.
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Richard Horton
<Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote:
>ITYM John Le Grant. John of Gaunt was one of Edward III's sons and
>contemporary with Chaucer. John Le Grant was the artillery person in
>Dunnett who survived the fall of Constantinople.
John le Grant! That's right. That's the guy.
erilar
jerry_f...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) wrote:
> It's hard to tell who owes a lot to Lymond, since he owes a lot to
> Lord Peter Wimsey (his conversations with, uh, Christian in the first
> volume could be straight out of Sayers), the Saint, and probably
> Raffles and Flashman and supermen like that. In fact, one of my main
> criticisms of the Lymond books (I've read the first four so far) is
> that he seems very twentieth-century to me. Could be my lack of
> knowledge of the sixteenth century.
Except that both are witty(in the very best sense), I really don't see
Lymond and Lord Peter as having much in common(and I've read both my
Sayers and Dunnett books more than once, something I don't often do).
Lymond has never struck me as 20th century. And as for "superman"--only
in the sense of being superior to the general run of men. He's certainly
vulnerable in several ways.
--
Mary Loomer Oliver(aka erilar)
Erilar's Cave Annex:
http://www.airstreamcomm.net/~erilarlo
erilar
Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote:
> Janny Wurts' Arithon is a definite Lymond clone. Or was in the first
> book.
Yes, that one I agree with. Maybe that's one reason I like him so much.
Note on history: I understand Dunnett's research is very thorough. Her
books are set a little later than the times I know the best, but I have
read good things about her historical knowledge written by people who
know her times better.
erilar
kne...@steelypips.org wrote:
> I read all of _Ash_, and when I was done said, "You know, I really
> didn't enjoy that very much."
I found it absorbing, even when I didn't like what was happening.
>
> I haven't read Niccolo, but I just can't imagine _Ash_ having anything
> to do with Dunnett.
I've read the whole Niccolo series and don't recall anything in _Ash_
bringing him to mind.
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes
>
>It's hard to tell who owes a lot to Lymond, since he owes a lot to
>Lord Peter Wimsey (his conversations with, uh, Christian in the first
>volume could be straight out of Sayers), the Saint, and probably
>Raffles and Flashman and supermen like that. In fact, one of my main
>criticisms of the Lymond books (I've read the first four so far) is
>that he seems very twentieth-century to me. Could be my lack of
>knowledge of the sixteenth century.
>
I've always taken Lymond to be an incarnation of the Rogue archetype,
along with the likes of The Saint and Raffles. I also conjecture that
the character has some relationship with Patrick, Master of Gray, based
on Nigel Tranter's trilogy on that historical character, in which he is
written as a rogue.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
Kate Nepveu
>In article <2vscoucacmmnglm2m...@news.earthlink.net>,
>kne...@steelypips.org wrote:
>> I read all of _Ash_, and when I was done said, "You know, I really
>> didn't enjoy that very much."
> I found it absorbing, even when I didn't like what was happening.
It had a certain sort of plot momentum, but when I put it down it all
just fell apart in my head.
Jerry Friedman
> In article <96efe132.0209...@posting.google.com>,
> jerry_f...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) wrote:
>
> > It's hard to tell who owes a lot to Lymond, since he owes a lot to
> > Lord Peter Wimsey (his conversations with, uh, Christian in the first
> > volume could be straight out of Sayers), the Saint, and probably
> > Raffles and Flashman and supermen like that. In fact, one of my main
> > criticisms of the Lymond books (I've read the first four so far) is
> > that he seems very twentieth-century to me. Could be my lack of
> > knowledge of the sixteenth century.
>
> Except that both are witty(in the very best sense), I really don't see
> Lymond and Lord Peter as having much in common(and I've read both my
> Sayers and Dunnett books more than once, something I don't often do).
The similarities I see are the incessant quotations, the incessant
mockery of people they like as well as those they dislike, and the
incessant "Guess what--I'm also an
musician/diplomat/acrobat/pugilist!" Why do I have a vague memory
that Wimsey's a good chess player? I know Harriet's a bad one,
anyway.
> Lymond has never struck me as 20th century.
Maybe mostly in verbal style. The sarcasm and condescension disguised
as politeness and the deliberately mystifying free association
football. And always being amused. Are those in sixteenth-century
writers?
They also seem to have similar attitudes toward religion (probably
unorthodox, certainly reticent, not irreverent) and morality
("amenable to some of the shibboleths", as Wimsey says of his nephew.)
> And as for "superman"--only
> in the sense of being superior to the general run of men. He's certainly
> vulnerable in several ways.
That's what I meant, not that bullets bounce off his chest.
--
Jerry Friedman
Jerry Friedman
> In article <96efe132.0209...@posting.google.com>, Jerry
> Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> writes
> >
> >It's hard to tell who owes a lot to Lymond, since he owes a lot to
> >Lord Peter Wimsey (his conversations with, uh, Christian in the first
> >volume could be straight out of Sayers), the Saint, and probably
> >Raffles and Flashman and supermen like that. In fact, one of my main
> >criticisms of the Lymond books (I've read the first four so far) is
> >that he seems very twentieth-century to me. Could be my lack of
> >knowledge of the sixteenth century.
> >
>
> I've always taken Lymond to be an incarnation of the Rogue archetype,
> along with the likes of The Saint and Raffles.
Subtype upper-class, hono(u)rable, witty, connoisseur. Not to be
confused with, say, Cugel. And capable of suffering, unlike the Saint
(as far as I know) or in sf, Retief. Nicholas van Rijn is a rogue who
shares the connoisseurship and--is he witty, exactly?
> I also conjecture that
> the character has some relationship with Patrick, Master of Gray, based
> on Nigel Tranter's trilogy on that historical character, in which he is
> written as a rogue.
Not another thing for the look-for-in-the-library list!
--
Jerry Friedman
Thomas Yan
-snip-
> There's a subthread waiting to happen (actually, it has happened, I
> think)- brilliant books that one can't get into, for whatever reason.
> Mine are the Dunnett books and Freedom and Necessity. Oh, and Little,
> Big. I hide my head in shame, and promise that I do make attempts
> from time to time to read them. It just never seems to get me very
> far.
Haven't tried _Little, Big_ or _Freedom and Necessity_ yet.
I'm still hopeful about _Moonwise_, but I'm not sure if I'm still
continuing with my current attempt (suspended for some weeks now), or
if I'll have to wait for my 3rd attempt or later to make it through.
Sharon Goetz
jerry_f...@yahoo.com says...
> erilar <erila...@SPAMchibardun.net.invalid> wrote in message news:<erilarloFRY-A457...@news.airstreamcomm.net>...
> Maybe mostly in verbal style. The sarcasm and condescension disguised
> as politeness and the deliberately mystifying free association
> football. And always being amused. Are those in sixteenth-century
> writers?
Free-association football is in the dialogue of Shakespeare's plays,
though it isn't honed to nearly the degree that Dunnett and Sayers
employ. For the polite sarcasm, try any well-written 16th-c. English
piece that purports to be courtly and contains (but here's the rub) a
villain....
sharon