_Lord of Castle Black_: notes (SPOILERS)
Kate Nepveu
by shadows" post, but it rather wants to be.
MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
Castle Black_.
Starting with things in _Paths_ that I'd noted while re-reading, as
relating to this book:
The ending of _Lord of Castle Black_ makes me wonder: what do we know
about inter-House sexual/romantics relationships in Vlad's day? It's
my recollection that Vlad doesn't talk much about it, being
uninterested in that kind of thing; Paarfi is hardly an unbiased
source. There's a reference in the Prelude to _Paths_ to "decidedly
unchivalrous behavior in some of our most noble houses" (hc 19); it's
probably reaching to think this is a clue.
I should have seen, in a way, the Piro/Ibronka, from the end of
_Paths_:
Roaana: "Well, then I choose adventure, danger, and to risk all in the
pursuit of glory."
"You choose that? And yet, it is your friend who is the Dzur."
"Well, and why should she have all the fun? She can have the love and
contentment." (chapter 32, p361 hc)
Now to _Lord of Castle Black_ proper:
General note: I'd heard it said that the _Viscount_ books would bring
the timeline up to Vlad's day. I am highly doubtful of this given
where we've ended; however, I shall wait and see.
Preface p17: Zerika's passage through the Paths was an "elegant
metaphorical journey, in which each of the Seventeen Houses was neatly
encapsulated and symbolically transcended, in a literary exploit of
which only modesty prevents the full explication". I just had to say
it again: damn Paarfi, anyway. =>
Ch 36 p36: the Khaavren-looking-for-ships conversation again. It will
have to be in book three that he actually sees them . . .
Ch 38 p59: Tazendra shows off her tracking abilities, "and Kytraan and
Piro stared at her in silent astonishment, as they had never had cause
to suspect that the Dzurlord was capable of this sort of observation,
not to mention the reasoning that accompanied it."
Tazendra is one of my favorite characters, and this wonderful mix of
simplicity and hidden depths is why.
Ch 39 p68: "And yet Habil, as she left her cousin's presence, was
already considering, not only the carrying out of her part of Kana's
plan, but certain alternative ideas of her own. Whether any of these
ideas had any effect on the unfolding of history we will see in due
time."
Phhbt. Well, I don't think we've learned of it in this book, so it
must be the next.
Ch 40 p73: Fentor comes to Morrolan because of a dream; can we
(literally) thank Verra for this?
Ch 41 p82: Aerich _still_ has his Phoenix Guards cloak. I don't recall
any indication that it was magicked; they must have *really* *good*
weavers in the Empire.
Ch 42 p109: "It has returned, or I'm a norska!"
I just like that line, is all.
Ch 42 p113: are any of these famous lines recognizably takeoffs of
things in our world?
Ch 43 p118: "Why, my dear, I am behind you."
Which is similar enough to the famous line quoted at the end of the
last chapter ("Turn around, my lord, I am behind you."), that I did an
initial double-take.
And yay, Pel choosing friendship. I was worried about that.
Ch 43 p125: Piro to Kytraan: "Who are the girls?" "I do not know, yet
they came with your father." "That is true. Can they get above us, do
you think?" "The girls?" "No, the enemy. I beg your pardon, but I
changed the subject of my discourse without informing you of my
intentions." "It is of no consequence."
Proof positive that a swashbuckler can be a fantasy of manners as
well . . .
Ch 45 p146-48: Excuse me, but _TUKKO_? "young one"? "*Dri'Chazik a
Tukknaro Dzur*"? (And does this title suggest that Chaz, the servant
we initially see at Dzur Mountain, is actually Tukko under a different
name or something?)
Ch 47 p165: Ah, there's Devera.
Ch 50: I treasure this chapter, I really do.
Ch 50 p194: "And above all of this, Morrolan was aware that, more than
ever before, he would very much like to find something to kill. By
preference, many things, all of them eager to fight back."
Consistent with Vlad's impression in _Issola_.
This also puts to rest the speculation mentioned here that it's
Tazendra's soul in Blackwand, as she's still very much alive when
Morrolan acquires it. However, I'm worried about what will happen to
Tazendra; there are no Lavodes at the time of _Issola_, and I really
hope she's enjoying a quiet retirement sitting by the fire with
Aerich. (Note that at the start of _The Phoenix Guards_, Paarfi claims
to have interviewed "the Duke of Y________ and the Baroness of
D________"; could this second one be Daavya?)
Ch 51 p207: another Tazendra exchange I like, about how "soon Pel will
tired of his game, and point me at someone to fight".
Ch 53 p234: Waaah! Forbidden (one-way?) Tazendra/Aerich!
Ch 53 p239: "And so," said Piro, who had been closely following this
reasoning, "if one finds oneself using dishonorable methods to achieve
a goal, it would follow that the goal, itself, is dishonorable? Or, if
not dishonorable, in some other way flawed?"
Not only are we suddenly in _Freedom and Necessity_, but Piro is going
to remember this conversation sooner or later in his highwayman's
life, I think . . .
Ch 55 p272: "Sethra Lavode, to prove her friendship, gave me this
sword."
Beyond the obvious (i.e., Morrolan's a cheeky bugger), do you suppose
he will learn of whatever-the-prophecy is, at some point?
Ch 57 p300: Paarfi really can't write romantic dialogue to save his
life, at least not in this exchange between Zerika and Lazlo.
Ch 58 p308: This vignette with Esteban and Arra seems slightly out of
place. Is Esteban/Thea going to be important in some way, perhaps?
Ch 59 p318: Apropos romantic dialogue, I admit that "Come over here,
Viscount, and kiss me, before I die of embarrassment," is at least
memorable.
Ch 65 p362: And we find out that Tukko "has certain skills in teaching
of such things," like reading. Who knew?
Ch 67 p: Any speculation as to who Udaar is seeking an audience with?
Here's mine: the King of Elde Island appears in the Cast of
Characters, and we haven't seen him yet . . .
Ch 67 p386: "Tristangrascalaticrunagore." We've seen a shortened
version of this name in _Issola_:
"More like hamlets than villages, Vlad. And he *was* at war against
them at the time, you know. . . . It was while he was consolidating
his power and retaking his ancestral homelands. They worshiped
Tri'nagore, a God you don't hear from much anymore, and had overrun
Blackchapel, killing everyone in it. Morrolan returned the favor, and
sent their souls to his Patron Goddess."
Ch 68 p388-89: The gods claim that they fiddled with the Orb while it
was in the Paths, increasing the effectiveness of sorcery; Verra, in
_Phoenix_, tells Vlad it was the studies and changes in sorcerous
practice during the Interregenum that did it.
Ch 68 p391: Just a nice reference to later events: "And yet," observed
Keurana, "he has not the bloodlines to use such powers fully." "As to
that," said Verra, "we shall see."
--
Kate Nepveu
E-mail: kne...@steelypips.org
Home: http://www.steelypips.org/
Book log: http://www.steelypips.org/weblog/
Konrad Gaertner
>
> I see people have this now, so here we go. This is not a "distracted
> by shadows" post, but it rather wants to be.
>
> MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
> Castle Black_.
And most of the other Dragaera books as well....
> Starting with things in _Paths_ that I'd noted while re-reading, as
> relating to this book:
>
> The ending of _Lord of Castle Black_ makes me wonder: what do we know
> about inter-House sexual/romantics relationships in Vlad's day?
There's mention in FHYA of laws passed by Norathar concerning
crossbreads. And there's Laereth/Mellar in _Jhereg_.
> I should have seen, in a way, the Piro/Ibronka, from the end of
> _Paths_:
>
> Roaana: "Well, then I choose adventure, danger, and to risk all in the
> pursuit of glory."
> "You choose that? And yet, it is your friend who is the Dzur."
> "Well, and why should she have all the fun? She can have the love and
> contentment." (chapter 32, p361 hc)
If that's love and contentment, I don't want to see hate and misery.
> Now to _Lord of Castle Black_ proper:
>
> General note: I'd heard it said that the _Viscount_ books would bring
> the timeline up to Vlad's day. I am highly doubtful of this given
> where we've ended; however, I shall wait and see.
People who've read Dumas claim that Vicomte ends with an epilogue
that takes place long after all the other events. And that nearly
all the main characters end up dead.
> Preface p17: Zerika's passage through the Paths was an "elegant
> metaphorical journey, in which each of the Seventeen Houses was neatly
> encapsulated and symbolically transcended, in a literary exploit of
> which only modesty prevents the full explication". I just had to say
> it again: damn Paarfi, anyway. =>
I'm going to have to re-read that section again, and see if I can
force the symbolism onto the journey in Cycle order (since that
entire passage is likely a complete fabrication by Paarfi, and I
can't see him changing the order).
> Ch 41 p82: Aerich _still_ has his Phoenix Guards cloak. I don't recall
> any indication that it was magicked; they must have *really* *good*
> weavers in the Empire.
Gold doesn't rot :)
> Ch 42 p109: "It has returned, or I'm a norska!"
>
> I just like that line, is all.
So does the rest of the Empire apparently.
> Ch 50 p194:
> This also puts to rest the speculation mentioned here that it's
> Tazendra's soul in Blackwand, as she's still very much alive when
> Morrolan acquires it.
Not really. So far, Morrolan's "black wand" hasn't behaved any
differently than a strong Morganti sword. It certainly hasn't
"woken up", whatever that means.
> Ch 53 p234: Waaah! Forbidden (one-way?) Tazendra/Aerich!
Aerich, being an ideal Lyorn, certainly would be the last to accept
this sort of thing.
> Ch 67 p: Any speculation as to who Udaar is seeking an audience with?
> Here's mine: the King of Elde Island appears in the Cast of
> Characters, and we haven't seen him yet . . .
Almost certainly, since he's in the best position to cause problems
for Adrilankha.
> Ch 68 p388-89: The gods claim that they fiddled with the Orb while it
> was in the Paths, increasing the effectiveness of sorcery; Verra, in
> _Phoenix_, tells Vlad it was the studies and changes in sorcerous
> practice during the Interregenum that did it.
The gods discussed the possibly of doing so in POTD, and here
Ordwynac believes it was done (but I doubt he would've been
involved). And Paarfi himself may be mistaken on this matter.
Note that Oidwa didn't notice anything different when Morrolan
asked her to check if the Orb had returned.
--KG
Timothy McDaniel
Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>I see people have this now, so here we go. This is not a "distracted
>by shadows" post, but it rather wants to be.
>
>MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>Castle Black_.
And _Jhereg_, the first book.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>The ending of _Lord of Castle Black_ makes me wonder: what do we know
>about inter-House sexual/romantics relationships in Vlad's day?
The plot of _Jhereg_, the first book of the series, is driven by
Lord Mellar, who absconded with the Jhereg House treasury. He's
driven by a wish for revenge against the Dragons, Dzur, and Jhereg,
because his mother was a Dragon/Dzur crossbreed and he was scorned by
both houses. Some of this is pre-Interregnum, but
<http://world.std.com/~alexx/timeline.txt> says that Mellar's attempt
to join either house was rejected post-Interregnum.
Doesn't look good for the Viscount of Adrilankha.
I see in that timeline, "5 [Noranthar II]: Edicts on Half-Breeds
signed ([_Five Hundred Years After_] 68-69)." Wasn't that stated to
be a reform in their favor?
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
Should I mention to Tor and/or Brust the error on the title page?
Zerika the Fourth is what the text says; Zerika the First was the
first Empress, no?
--
Tim McDaniel, tm...@panix.com; tm...@us.ibm.com is my work address
Andrew Plotkin
> Should I mention to Tor and/or Brust the error on the title page?
> Zerika the Fourth is what the text says; Zerika the First was the
> first Empress, no?
Oops.
I must also note my favorite line on the title page: "Presented, as
Always, To Marchioness Poorborn With Gratitude and Affection".
Paarfi's previous two books were dedicated "as always" to completely
different women. Either the scurrilous rumors that Ilen the Magian
presented in the afterward are true, or Paarfi just can't hold onto a
girlfriend... or (presumably) both.
(_Paths_ and _Castle Black_ are both dedicated to Poorborn, but of
course they were written as a single work.)
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
Dorothy J Heydt
>life, at least not in this exchange between Zerika and Lazlo.
>Ch 59 p318: Apropos romantic dialogue, I admit that "Come over here,
>Viscount, and kiss me, before I die of embarrassment," is at least
>memorable.
You do realize that's an old, old joke? Young man who doesn't
know how to carry on polite conversation (don't remember if it's
specfically 'with girls' or not) is advised by an elder to talk
of generalities like relatives and food. "Do you have a
brother?" "No." "Do you like noodles?" "Yes." Silence for
some moments. "Well, if you had a brother, would he like
noodles?" Fortunately the person addressed steps on the
punchline.
Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djh...@kithrup.com
http://www.kithrup.com/~djheydt
Michael S. Schiffer
news:HJyB5...@kithrup.com:
>...
> You do realize that's an old, old joke? Young man who doesn't
> know how to carry on polite conversation (don't remember if it's
> specfically 'with girls' or not) is advised by an elder to talk
> of generalities like relatives and food. "Do you have a
> brother?" "No." "Do you like noodles?" "Yes." Silence for
> some moments. "Well, if you had a brother, would he like
> noodles?"
The version I heard involved the experienced person specifically
suggesting family, food, and philosophy as topics, with the hapless
suitor trying each in turn. (And the food was bagels, but that's
probably just a sign of my family background.)
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Dorothy J Heydt
Konrad Gaertner <gae...@aol.com> wrote:
>Kate Nepveu wrote:
>> Ch 41 p82: Aerich _still_ has his Phoenix Guards cloak. I don't recall
>> any indication that it was magicked; they must have *really* *good*
>> weavers in the Empire.
>
>Gold doesn't rot :)
True, but you can't make a cloak or other garment of gold alone.
Gold thread, for weaving or embroidery, is made by hammering the
gold into very thin narrow strips and wrapping them diagonally
around a core thread of silk or linen. The silk or linen fibers
will perish, given time. Old gold-worked garments (I'm thinking
of the vestments of St. Cuthbert, buried with him when he died in
687 AD) still show the patterns worked on them in _opus
anglicanum_, but the fibers that aren't gold have mostly rotted and
the vestments had to be carefully attached to a new backing for
display.
Now let's see. Five hundred years between Aerich's enlistment
and the Disaster; <flip flip flip pages> two hundred forty-seven
years of the Interregnum. Well, the fibers *might* have survived
that long, with careful tending. Perhaps they have plants we
don't know, yielding tougher fibers, on Dragaera.
Michael S. Schiffer
>...
> Now let's see. Five hundred years between Aerich's enlistment
> and the Disaster; <flip flip flip pages> two hundred forty-seven
> years of the Interregnum. Well, the fibers *might* have
> survived that long, with careful tending. Perhaps they have
> plants we don't know, yielding tougher fibers, on Dragaera.
Or sorcerous treatments for fibers with lasting effects. (Or
artificial fibers made entirely via sorcery. They refine petroleum,
at least in Vlad's time-- do they make plastics with sorcery?)
Then again, in a household like Aerich's, it may be that the servants
just quietly maintain, repair, and replace everything as necessary,
with the cloak being the same cloak only on the George Washington's
Axe principal. (After all, if his Grace goes to look for something--
even something he hasn't used for centuries-- and it isn't ready to
hand, there will be some impeccably worded expressions of
displeasure, and possibly a release from his service.)
J.B. Moreno
> The plot of _Jhereg_, the first book of the series, is driven by
> Lord Mellar, who absconded with the Jhereg House treasury. He's
> driven by a wish for revenge against the Dragons, Dzur, and Jhereg,
> because his mother was a Dragon/Dzur crossbreed and he was scorned by
> both houses.
IMS he actually succeeds in joining the Dzur who have a rather simple,
if tedious, entrance requirement (unlike most of the houses who don't
let you in no matter what).
--
JBM
"Everything is futile." -- Marvin of Borg
Michael S. Schiffer
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pl...@newsreaders.com (J.B. Moreno) wrote in
news:1g00jzk.17jj1q0n708uaN%pl...@newsreaders.com:
IIRC, he passes the initiation test and then, as a calculated insult,
walks away without actually joining the House.
Though... that does offer a possible resolution to Piro's problems as
of the end of _The Lord of Castle Black_. All he has to do is kill
seventeen Dzur heroes, and his proposed marriage is as legit as can
be.
Louann Miller
<msch...@condor.depaul.edu> wrote:
>> IMS [Lord Mellar] actually succeeds in joining the Dzur who have a rather
>> simple, if tedious, entrance requirement (unlike most of the
>> houses who don't let you in no matter what).
>
>IIRC, he passes the initiation test and then, as a calculated insult,
>walks away without actually joining the House.
>
>Though... that does offer a possible resolution to Piro's problems as
>of the end of _The Lord of Castle Black_. All he has to do is kill
>seventeen Dzur heroes, and his proposed marriage is as legit as can
>be.
It wouldn't mend his relationship with his parents, though. And
knowing Brust, can you name two of the Dzur who would be lined up to
fight him?
Louann
Michael S. Schiffer
news:1vu9kvk7869bpveau...@4ax.com:
Do we know who chooses the opponents? I'd assumed that the
challenger could challenge any Dzur who's designated as a "hero"
(which seems to be a defined position, though I don't think we know
the details. Odds are that Piro's fiancee', whose name escapes me
for the moment, isn't one yet, but that Tazendra is.) But it may be
that the House gets to pick its champions. Whether they'd try to
pick whatshername depends on what they think of people joining the
House in order to marry one of its members. If Tazendra were one of
the champions, I'd guess that we'd get a truce to deal with an
external emergency, and either Tazendra, Piro, or both would die in
battle before they actually came to fighting one another. (Or
whatshername would die and obviate Piro's need to join the House, and
Tazendra and Piro would drop the issue in their mutual grief.)
Not that I really think that's the direction the plot is going. If
it were, the procedure for joining House Dzur would already have been
mentioned somewhere in this book or the last to lay the foundation, I
think.
J.B. Moreno
> Mild spoilers for _Jhereg_ and _The Lord of Castle Black_:
> pl...@newsreaders.com (J.B. Moreno) wrote in
> > Timothy McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
> >> The plot of _Jhereg_, the first book of the series, is driven
> >> by Lord Mellar, who absconded with the Jhereg House treasury.
> >> He's driven by a wish for revenge against the Dragons, Dzur,
> >> and Jhereg, because his mother was a Dragon/Dzur crossbreed and
> >> he was scorned by both houses.
>
> > IMS he actually succeeds in joining the Dzur who have a rather
> > simple, if tedious, entrance requirement (unlike most of the
> > houses who don't let you in no matter what).
>
> IIRC, he passes the initiation test and then, as a calculated insult,
> walks away without actually joining the House.
Yeah, that's was it. But that just goes to show that he's getting
revenge on behalf of his mother, not for himself.
> Though... that does offer a possible resolution to Piro's problems as
> of the end of _The Lord of Castle Black_. All he has to do is kill
> seventeen Dzur heroes, and his proposed marriage is as legit as can
> be.
Well, his father might not like him becoming a Dzur.
Alexx S Kay
>In article <p128kv86r7egl1pla...@news.verizon.net>,
>Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>>I see people have this now, so here we go. This is not a "distracted
>>by shadows" post, but it rather wants to be.
>>
>>MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>>Castle Black_.
>And _Jhereg_, the first book.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>>
>>The ending of _Lord of Castle Black_ makes me wonder: what do we know
>>about inter-House sexual/romantics relationships in Vlad's day?
>The plot of _Jhereg_, the first book of the series, is driven by
>Lord Mellar, who absconded with the Jhereg House treasury. He's
>driven by a wish for revenge against the Dragons, Dzur, and Jhereg,
>because his mother was a Dragon/Dzur crossbreed and he was scorned by
>both houses. Some of this is pre-Interregnum, but
><http://world.std.com/~alexx/timeline.txt> says that Mellar's attempt
>to join either house was rejected post-Interregnum.
>Doesn't look good for the Viscount of Adrilankha.
>I see in that timeline, "5 [Noranthar II]: Edicts on Half-Breeds
>signed ([_Five Hundred Years After_] 68-69)." Wasn't that stated to
>be a reform in their favor?
Yes, but it was clear from context that "treatment by society at large"
was still lagging well behind "legal status". Sad, but realistic.
>Should I mention to Tor and/or Brust the error on the title page?
>Zerika the Fourth is what the text says; Zerika the First was the
>first Empress, no?
It was mentioned on the Dragaera mailing list, which Brust frequents,
along with a small number of other typos. I presume he took note of
them.
Alexx
Alexx Kay
Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers
al...@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~alexx
God is love -- but get it in writing.
[Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/]
Alexx S Kay
>I see people have this now, so here we go. This is not a "distracted
>by shadows" post, but it rather wants to be.
>MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>Castle Black_.
>
>
<snip>
>Ch 36 p36: the Khaavren-looking-for-ships conversation again. It will
>have to be in book three that he actually sees them . . .
Any bets on whether they will be the trade ships he's expecting...
or a war-fleet from Elde Island?
<snip>
>Ch 40 p73: Fentor comes to Morrolan because of a dream; can we
>(literally) thank Verra for this?
Possibly, but I got the strong impression that the witches' circle
was handling that (p72).
<snip>
>Ch 42 p113: are any of these famous lines recognizably takeoffs of
>things in our world?
"Turn around my lord, I am behind you." had, to my ears, a faint echo
of "I'm not left-handed either." But maybe that's just me.
<snip>
>And yay, Pel choosing friendship. I was worried about that.
Indeed, this is a major deviation from Dumas. We recently discussed
this point on the Dragaera mailing list. I hold that Brust is too
kindhearted to be as much of a bastard as Dumas was :-)
<snip>
>This also puts to rest the speculation mentioned here that it's
>Tazendra's soul in Blackwand, as she's still very much alive when
>Morrolan acquires it. However, I'm worried about what will happen to
>Tazendra; there are no Lavodes at the time of _Issola_, and I really
>hope she's enjoying a quiet retirement sitting by the fire with
>Aerich.
Do Lavodes get to retire? I still think that the sword that Morrolan
has is not *yet* a Great Weapon, and that Tazendra's soul will figure
in the change. I also suspect that the Serioli who showed up in
_Dragon_ will make an appearance. (Though, come to think of it, he's
not listed in the Cast of Characters. But then, neither is Pel, so
that doesn't necessarily signify.)
<snip>
>Ch 58 p308: This vignette with Esteban and Arra seems slightly out of
>place. Is Esteban/Thea going to be important in some way, perhaps?
Perhaps it was just an authorial way of establishing (without a bald
info-dump) that the Circle doesn't swell its numbers just by recruitment,
but also by reproduction.
<snip>
>Ch 65 p362: And we find out that Tukko "has certain skills in teaching
>of such things," like reading. Who knew?
Perhaps he once had to instruct Sethra how to read the Operations
Manual for Dzur Mountain (presumably written in Jenoine?).
>Ch 67 p: Any speculation as to who Udaar is seeking an audience with?
>Here's mine: the King of Elde Island appears in the Cast of
>Characters, and we haven't seen him yet . . .
See my above speculation about ships coming in.
<snip>
Alexx
Alexx Kay
Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers
al...@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~alexx
"Jack the Ripper, in a very real sense, never actually had a physical
existence. He was a collage-creature, made from crank letters, hoaxes,
and sensational headlines. He exists wholly in Idea Space, looming
forward from our books of theory and our fictions, from our slasher
films and our contemporary mythology of serial murder, from the pages
and appendices of _From Hell_. He is unencumbered by a physical body
or human identity. He has transcended human reality to become, like it
or not, one of our immortals."
-- Alan Moore in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_
Dorothy J Heydt
Alexx S Kay <al...@TheWorld.com> wrote:
>
>MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>>Castle Black_.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
><snip>
>
>
>Indeed, this is a major deviation from Dumas. We recently discussed
>this point on the Dragaera mailing list. I hold that Brust is too
>kindhearted to be as much of a bastard as Dumas was :-)
That has already been established: Dumas-readers (of which I have
never been one) tells me he, and his heroes, have never had any
tiniest vestige of sympathy for anyone in the lower classes.
Servants are furniture, and/or consumables. I like Brust's
treatment better.
>Do Lavodes get to retire? I still think that the sword that Morrolan
>has is not *yet* a Great Weapon, and that Tazendra's soul will figure
>in the change.
Well... remember that Vlad learns at the end of _Issola_ that
Blackwand loves Morrolan. Tazendra doesn't love Morrolan; she
loves, next to a good fight, Aerich.
If the soul in Blackwand is going to be that of someone who loves
Morrolan, the only candidate I can suggest is Arra. She's never
shown any great affection for him, except by taking good care of
him. Maybe she loves him better than we realize.
I also suspect that the Serioli who showed up in
>_Dragon_ will make an appearance. (Though, come to think of it, he's
>not listed in the Cast of Characters. But then, neither is Pel, so
>that doesn't necessarily signify.)
No more he is; not even as Galstan. We'll have to wait and
see...
Konrad Gaertner
>
> In article <3F44125F...@worldnet.att.net>,
> Konrad Gaertner <gae...@aol.com> wrote:
> >Kate Nepveu wrote:
>
> >> Ch 41 p82: Aerich _still_ has his Phoenix Guards cloak. I don't recall
> >> any indication that it was magicked; they must have *really* *good*
> >> weavers in the Empire.
> >
> >Gold doesn't rot :)
>
> True, but you can't make a cloak or other garment of gold alone.
> Gold thread, for weaving or embroidery, is made by hammering the
> gold into very thin narrow strips and wrapping them diagonally
> around a core thread of silk or linen. The silk or linen fibers
> will perish, given time.
The cloak could be finely-wrought gold chain mail.
--KG
Konrad Gaertner
The House picks them. And they aren't duels to the death, only till
defeated. The Dzurlord who explains this to Vlad in _Jhereg_ was one
of those defeated.
--KG
Alexx S Kay
>In article <bi37np$ujg$3...@pcls4.std.com>,
>Alexx S Kay <al...@TheWorld.com> wrote:
>>
>>MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>>>Castle Black_.
>>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>Indeed, this is a major deviation from Dumas. We recently discussed
>>this point on the Dragaera mailing list. I hold that Brust is too
>>kindhearted to be as much of a bastard as Dumas was :-)
>That has already been established: Dumas-readers (of which I have
>never been one) tells me he, and his heroes, have never had any
>tiniest vestige of sympathy for anyone in the lower classes.
>Servants are furniture, and/or consumables. I like Brust's
>treatment better.
When it comes to protagonists, I agree. OTOH, Brust has never
come up with an *antagonist* half as powerful as Milady deWinter,
Mordaunt, or (depending on your POV) Aramis.
Alexx
Alexx Kay
Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers
al...@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~alexx
"I remember thinking, when I hit the first sequence with Queen
Victoria, "Well, there goes Alan's knighthood." Bit of a long
shot in any case, I suppose, and more's the pity. I've thought
Her Royal Majesty (the current one, that is) would be well-served
by a Rasputin-like figure in proximity..."
-- Dave Sim in correspondence with Alan Moore about _From Hell_
Michael S. Schiffer
news:3F453328...@worldnet.att.net:
> "Michael S. Schiffer" wrote:
>> >
>...
>> Do we know who chooses the opponents? I'd assumed that the
>> challenger could challenge any Dzur who's designated as a
>> "hero" (which seems to be a defined position, though I don't
>> think we know the details. Odds are that Piro's fiancee',
>> whose name escapes me for the moment, isn't one yet, but that
>> Tazendra is.) But it may be that the House gets to pick its
>> champions.
> The House picks them. And they aren't duels to the death, only
> till defeated. The Dzurlord who explains this to Vlad in
> _Jhereg_ was one of those defeated.
Though in Vlad's time, a duel to the death wouldn't necessarily
preclude his being available to explain the process to Vlad. :-)
It would strike me as strange if Dzur hero would acknowledge defeat
short of death or incapacity in such circumstances. (Especially
since either of those last would be reparable with sorcery most of
the time.) Then again, that may be why he's so humiliated.
Adam Canning
> Here, Timothy McDaniel <tm...@panix.com> wrote:
> > Should I mention to Tor and/or Brust the error on the title page?
> > Zerika the Fourth is what the text says; Zerika the First was the
> > first Empress, no?
>
> Oops.
>
> I must also note my favorite line on the title page: "Presented, as
> Always, To Marchioness Poorborn With Gratitude and Affection".
> Paarfi's previous two books were dedicated "as always" to completely
> different women. Either the scurrilous rumors that Ilen the Magian
> presented in the afterward are true, or Paarfi just can't hold onto a
> girlfriend... or (presumably) both.
>
Or she's an Orca and keeps changing rank/demense.
--
Adam
Adam Canning
msch...@condor.depaul.edu says...
Do the kills have to be unressurrectable? Or is it just defeat 17 Dzur
Heros with the caveat that usually involves killing them?
--
Adam
Adam Canning
> Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> writes:
>
> >I see people have this now, so here we go. This is not a "distracted
> >by shadows" post, but it rather wants to be.
>
> >MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
> >Castle Black_.
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
>
> <snip>
>
> _Dragon_ will make an appearance. (Though, come to think of it, he's
> not listed in the Cast of Characters. But then, neither is Pel, so
> that doesn't necessarily signify.)
Unless Pel is the king of Elde Island...
--
Adam
Kate Nepveu
>In article <p128kv86r7egl1pla...@news.verizon.net>,
>Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>>I see people have this now, so here we go. This is not a "distracted
>>by shadows" post, but it rather wants to be.
>>MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>>Castle Black_.
>And _Jhereg_, the first book.
>>The ending of _Lord of Castle Black_ makes me wonder: what do we know
>>about inter-House sexual/romantics relationships in Vlad's day?
>The plot of _Jhereg_, the first book of the series, is driven by
>Lord Mellar, who absconded with the Jhereg House treasury. He's
>driven by a wish for revenge against the Dragons, Dzur, and Jhereg,
>because his mother was a Dragon/Dzur crossbreed and he was scorned by
>both houses.
I can't believe I forgot this. Thanks, everyone who mentioned it.
Kate Nepveu
>Kate Nepveu wrote:
>> I see people have this now, so here we go. This is not a "distracted
>> by shadows" post, but it rather wants to be.
>> MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>> Castle Black_.
>And most of the other Dragaera books as well....
>> I should have seen, in a way, the Piro/Ibronka, from the end of
>> _Paths_:
>> Roaana: "Well, then I choose adventure, danger, and to risk all in the
>> pursuit of glory."
>> "You choose that? And yet, it is your friend who is the Dzur."
>> "Well, and why should she have all the fun? She can have the love and
>> contentment." (chapter 32, p361 hc)
>If that's love and contentment, I don't want to see hate and misery.
Well, eventually it might be. Her path is certainly more focused on
love than adventure.
>> Now to _Lord of Castle Black_ proper:
>> General note: I'd heard it said that the _Viscount_ books would bring
>> the timeline up to Vlad's day. I am highly doubtful of this given
>> where we've ended; however, I shall wait and see.
>People who've read Dumas claim that Vicomte ends with an epilogue
>that takes place long after all the other events. And that nearly
>all the main characters end up dead.
. . . my instinct is, "that would suck." But I trust Brust.
>> Preface p17: Zerika's passage through the Paths was an "elegant
>> metaphorical journey, in which each of the Seventeen Houses was neatly
>> encapsulated and symbolically transcended, in a literary exploit of
>> which only modesty prevents the full explication". I just had to say
>> it again: damn Paarfi, anyway. =>
>I'm going to have to re-read that section again, and see if I can
>force the symbolism onto the journey in Cycle order (since that
>entire passage is likely a complete fabrication by Paarfi, and I
>can't see him changing the order).
It might work; so many of my identifications were tentative, but the
ones I thought were reasonably firm work pretty well. I'm missing an
obstacle, though, in that case.
>> Ch 50 p194:
>> This also puts to rest the speculation mentioned here that it's
>> Tazendra's soul in Blackwand, as she's still very much alive when
>> Morrolan acquires it.
>Not really. So far, Morrolan's "black wand" hasn't behaved any
>differently than a strong Morganti sword. It certainly hasn't
>"woken up", whatever that means.
Well, it might not have woken up, but do we have textevd that standard
Morgantis make the wielders *happy*?
Kate Nepveu
Nope, never heard it before. I'd wondered where it came from, though,
and now that you say that, it makes sense.
Kate Nepveu
>>I see people have this now, so here we go. This is not a "distracted
>>by shadows" post, but it rather wants to be.
>>MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>>Castle Black_.
>>Ch 36 p36: the Khaavren-looking-for-ships conversation again. It will
>>have to be in book three that he actually sees them . . .
>Any bets on whether they will be the trade ships he's expecting...
>or a war-fleet from Elde Island?
Ow. Cruel yet plausible.
>>And yay, Pel choosing friendship. I was worried about that.
>Indeed, this is a major deviation from Dumas. We recently discussed
>this point on the Dragaera mailing list. I hold that Brust is too
>kindhearted to be as much of a bastard as Dumas was :-)
I like his characters much more than Dumas' analogues, so it's
plausible that the character twists are less bastardly, but I was
still relieved.
>>This also puts to rest the speculation mentioned here that it's
>>Tazendra's soul in Blackwand, as she's still very much alive when
>>Morrolan acquires it. However, I'm worried about what will happen to
>>Tazendra; there are no Lavodes at the time of _Issola_, and I really
>>hope she's enjoying a quiet retirement sitting by the fire with
>>Aerich.
>Do Lavodes get to retire? I still think that the sword that Morrolan
>has is not *yet* a Great Weapon, and that Tazendra's soul will figure
>in the change. I also suspect that the Serioli who showed up in
>_Dragon_ will make an appearance. (Though, come to think of it, he's
>not listed in the Cast of Characters. But then, neither is Pel, so
>that doesn't necessarily signify.)
I really hate this idea, because I *like* Tazendra and don't want her
to be in a sword. Also, she doesn't love Morrolan, as someone else
pointed out.
Konrad Gaertner
>
> Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >Kate Nepveu wrote:
>
> >> MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
> >> Castle Black_.
>
> >And most of the other Dragaera books as well....
> >> Ch 50 p194:
>
> >> This also puts to rest the speculation mentioned here that it's
> >> Tazendra's soul in Blackwand, as she's still very much alive when
> >> Morrolan acquires it.
>
> >Not really. So far, Morrolan's "black wand" hasn't behaved any
> >differently than a strong Morganti sword. It certainly hasn't
> >"woken up", whatever that means.
>
> Well, it might not have woken up, but do we have textevd that standard
> Morgantis make the wielders *happy*?
This is the only time we see a Morganti through the POV of someone
who truly enjoys killing people.
--KG
Konrad Gaertner
>
> Alexx S Kay <al...@TheWorld.com> wrote:
> >Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> writes:
>
> >>I see people have this now, so here we go. This is not a "distracted
> >>by shadows" post, but it rather wants to be.
>
> >>MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
> >>Castle Black_.
> >>Ch 36 p36: the Khaavren-looking-for-ships conversation again. It will
> >>have to be in book three that he actually sees them . . .
>
> >Any bets on whether they will be the trade ships he's expecting...
> >or a war-fleet from Elde Island?
>
> Ow. Cruel yet plausible.
I don't think Elde counts as a "distant port". I'd expect many of
the ships in the harbor to be from there.
The timing is off (by 200 some years), but I'd love it if one of
the ships he sees is carrying Brigitta.
--KG
Ha T. Nguyen
Heydt) wrote:
>In article <bi37np$ujg$3...@pcls4.std.com>,
>Alexx S Kay <al...@TheWorld.com> wrote:
>>
>>MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>>>Castle Black_.
>>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>>
>><snip>
>>
\
>
>Well... remember that Vlad learns at the end of _Issola_ that
>Blackwand loves Morrolan. Tazendra doesn't love Morrolan; she
>loves, next to a good fight, Aerich.
>
>If the soul in Blackwand is going to be that of someone who loves
>Morrolan, the only candidate I can suggest is Arra. She's never
>shown any great affection for him, except by taking good care of
>him. Maybe she loves him better than we realize.
>
>I also suspect that the Serioli who showed up in
>>_Dragon_ will make an appearance. (Though, come to think of it, he's
>>not listed in the Cast of Characters. But then, neither is Pel, so
>>that doesn't necessarily signify.)
>
>No more he is; not even as Galstan. We'll have to wait and
>see...
>
In the book, I vaguely remember the Morrolon is the soul-mate of
a goddess. I'm assuming that's who is going into Blackwand. I just
want to know, who's the goddess? Not Verra because she loved
(I'm assuming) Adron.
--
Ha
Dorothy J Heydt
Ha T. Nguyen <htn...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:06:26 GMT, djh...@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
>Heydt) wrote:
>
>>In article <bi37np$ujg$3...@pcls4.std.com>,
>>Alexx S Kay <al...@TheWorld.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>>>>Castle Black_.
>>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>><snip>
>>>
>\
>>
>>Well... remember that Vlad learns at the end of _Issola_ that
>>Blackwand loves Morrolan. Tazendra doesn't love Morrolan; she
>>loves, next to a good fight, Aerich.
>>
>>If the soul in Blackwand is going to be that of someone who loves
>>Morrolan, the only candidate I can suggest is Arra. She's never
>>shown any great affection for him, except by taking good care of
>>him. Maybe she loves him better than we realize.
>>
>a goddess.
Or more specifically, is prophesied to be.
>I'm assuming that's who is going into Blackwand. I just
>want to know, who's the goddess? Not Verra because she loved
>(I'm assuming) Adron.
And anyway, she is still around during Vlad's time.
Looking over the final scene, I want to guess Moranthe", who's
expressed some near-jealousy over Morrolan being sworn to Verra,
but I'd have to look back into _Taltos_ and see if *she* is still
around during Vlad's time. Heck, maybe I should just take a roll-call
of both books, see who answers.
(Of course if they answer for each other, like the Space Patrol,
that won't help.)
Justin Fang
_Lord of Castle Black_ is actually Dortmond from _Dragon_? Both are
described as large, middle-aged, and possessed of comfy folding chairs
and no desire for promotion.
--
Justin Fang (jus...@panix.com)
Dana Crom
>A small note: I wonder if the unnamed Dragon soldier on page 318-319 of
>_Lord of Castle Black_ is actually Dortmond from _Dragon_? Both are
>described as large, middle-aged, and possessed of comfy folding chairs
>and no desire for promotion.
I've been wondering the same thing.
And I suspect Brust put it in deliberately to see if anyone would catch it.
I also suspect he'll never give us a straight answer on it - watching us
speculate fruitlessly seems to be one of his favorite hobbies.
--
------------------------+--------------------------------------------------
Dana Crom / "Malt does more than Milton can
da...@pacbell.net / To justify God's ways to man" A. E. Housman
San Jose, California / "Doubtless due to a wider audience" DLC
James Angove
news:gtnakv4blh7d35k1l...@news.verizon.net:
Okay, wait. Why has it been determined that Blackwand isn't yet
Blackwand? I think a vital step has been missed here. I kinda got the
feeling that it is already being _called_ Blackwand, if nothing else.
The other thing is that I don't think the soul in Blackwand has to be
someone who loved Morrolan in life. Blackwand loves Morrolan _because
Morrolan wields Blackwand_, not because the soul in Blackwand was someone
who had the hots for Morrolan in life (nor would that love have to be of
the hots kind, I suppose) I get the distinct impression that most of the
Great Weapons have been around for a really, really long time, and have
had more than one wielder. Presumedly, the weapons loved those people as
well, as the love is part of the system the weapons use to protect
themselves.
--
James Angove
This is a usenet post. It is likely you will be eaten by a grue.
Kenneth Barclay Troop
> MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
> Castle Black_.
<spoiler space clunkily inserted>
A few misc. things:
- Were we also supposed to believe that Pel is interested in
Tazendra? (Don't have book with me, but I thought there was
a scene or two that could point in that direction).
- Early on, it seems like Kytraan/Roaana is heating up far
faster than Piro/Ibronka...then it goes nowhere. Did I miss
something?
- Finally, the whole Piro surprise at the end struck me as
highly unbelievable, and at the very least way too fast and
clunky a change, especially for Brust.
Did anyone else wonder if this is a strategy by pere et fils
to give them the maximum flexibility in protecting the Empress
from the plans of Habil, etc? Perhaps Piro as dangled bait?
Highly unlikely...but it otherwise came across as Brust
saying "Hmm, I need some dramatic tension here -- let me make
some up."
Dorothy J Heydt
Kenneth Barclay Troop <tr...@login1.fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>
>> MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>> Castle Black_.
>
><spoiler space clunkily inserted>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>highly unbelievable, and at the very least way too fast and
>clunky a change, especially for Brust.
>
>Did anyone else wonder if this is a strategy by pere et fils
>to give them the maximum flexibility in protecting the Empress
>from the plans of Habil, etc? Perhaps Piro as dangled bait?
I dunno, it seemed reasonable enough to me. You do have to
assume that Khaavren and Daro had *told* Piro that you can't
marry outside your own House, and that he hadn't taken it
seriously or something. A little dialogue along the line of "You
mean I can't marry her just because she's a Dzur? That sucks!"
and "That's part of what holds civilization together!" and "Well
screw civilization then!" would have made the point of contention
more obvious to the reader who, wishing all parties well, has
nonetheless been brought up in entirely different circumstances
and doesn't quite understand.*
UNLESS, of course, there is something else about Ibronka or her
family that makes her unsuitable for an entirely different reason
and Khaavren didn't choose, or didn't get a chance, to mention
it. There has been some speculation, e.g., that Grita is
Ibronka's half-sister.
______________
*There's an old story from the early 1960s. The Rev. Martin
Luther King, Jr., came to the White House to discuss matters of
importance with President Kennedy, and brought his small son
along. The child played with Caroline Kennedy in the White House
gardens all day. At dinner that evening, little Caroline
remarked, "I really like that little boy, Daddy. I want to marry
him when I grow up."
The President looked at his daughter in horror. "You can't DO
that!" he exclaimed. "He's a Baptist!"
Michael S. Schiffer
news:HK19E...@kithrup.com:
>
>><spoiler space clunkily inserted>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>...
> I dunno, it seemed reasonable enough to me. You do have to
> assume that Khaavren and Daro had *told* Piro that you can't
> marry outside your own House, and that he hadn't taken it
> seriously or something. A little dialogue along the line of "You
> mean I can't marry her just because she's a Dzur? That sucks!"
> and "That's part of what holds civilization together!" and "Well
> screw civilization then!" would have made the point of contention
> more obvious to the reader who, wishing all parties well, has
> nonetheless been brought up in entirely different circumstances
> and doesn't quite understand.*
>...
There was the discussion of the mixed-house couple (IIRC, members
of the Society of Porker Poker) living together as spouses though
they were unable to legally marry. (IIRC, Paarfi commented on how
such unusual arrangements became more common during the Interregnum
due to the breakdown of social norms.) Assuming Piro noticed that
they *weren't* married and why, he'd been exposed to those
assumptions even if he disagreed with them. (And likewise the
reader. But given that it was a minor issue early in the previous
volume, it may not have stuck with those haven't also read-- or
don't remember-- _Jhereg_, where it was an important plot element.)
David Dyer-Bennet
> Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote in
> news:gtnakv4blh7d35k1l...@news.verizon.net:
>
> > Alexx S Kay <al...@TheWorld.com> wrote:
> >>Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> writes:
> >
> >>>I see people have this now, so here we go. This is not a "distracted
> >>>by shadows" post, but it rather wants to be.
> >
> >>>MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
> >>>Castle Black_.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Okay, wait. Why has it been determined that Blackwand isn't yet
> Blackwand? I think a vital step has been missed here. I kinda got the
> feeling that it is already being _called_ Blackwand, if nothing else.
Not to my eye. He's being *very* careful to *avoid* calling it
Blackwand. It's been described as a black wand. This is Dragaerans
talking, including the *same ones* alive later; if it were Serioli say
I'd say that's close enough to identity, but not for Dragaerans.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, <dd...@dd-b.net>, <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <noguns-nomoney.com> <www.dd-b.net/carry/>
Photos: <dd-b.lighthunters.net> Snapshots: <www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
Dragaera mailing lists: <dragaera.info/>
Alexx S Kay
>A small note: I wonder if the unnamed Dragon soldier on page 318-319 of
>_Lord of Castle Black_ is actually Dortmond from _Dragon_? Both are
>described as large, middle-aged, and possessed of comfy folding chairs
>and no desire for promotion.
And are either of these identical with the Dortmond in _Paths of the Dead_
who got lucky with Ibronka?
Alexx
Alexx Kay
Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers
al...@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~alexx
"Neurosis is the inability to tolerate ambiguity."
-- Sigmund Freud, appearing to John Barlow in a dream
Alexx S Kay
>Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>> MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>> Castle Black_.
><spoiler space clunkily inserted>
<snip>
>- Finally, the whole Piro surprise at the end struck me as
>highly unbelievable, and at the very least way too fast and
>clunky a change, especially for Brust.
It was carefully set up. *I* certainly saw it coming a few hundred
pages ahead. Paarfi carefully (and cleverly) foreshadowed it in
the preface. And Tazendra's comments about how she felt towards Aerich
also helped lay the groundwork. That is, lay the groundwork for any
reader who isn't already fully familiar with the Dragaeran attitude
towards crossbreeds.
Alexx
Alexx Kay
Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers
al...@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~alexx
"Go not to Usenet for council, for it will say
no and yes and no and yes..."
-- Henry Spenser
Alexx S Kay
>In article <bi5kra$4vm$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>,
>Kenneth Barclay Troop <tr...@login1.fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>>> Castle Black_.
>>
>><spoiler space clunkily inserted>
>>
>>
>>
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<snip>
>UNLESS, of course, there is something else about Ibronka or her
>family that makes her unsuitable for an entirely different reason
>and Khaavren didn't choose, or didn't get a chance, to mention
>it. There has been some speculation, e.g., that Grita is
>Ibronka's half-sister.
Speculation? Well, I suppose perhaps Paarfi never outright *stated*
that Grita was Sennya's daughter, but it was implied in the strongest
possible terms.
Not that I think Khaavren knows any of this backstory, mind you. I'm
sure he just objects to house-mixing.
Alexx
Alexx Kay
Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers
al...@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~alexx
"I've heard it said that all of our human perceptions might be seen as
our individual windows on the Universe. The magician is consciously
attempting to alter his or her window's width or its angle, so as to
get a different view of the landscape outside. The schizophrenic, on
the other hand, has had his or her window kicked in by some great big
astral skinhead in eighteen-hole Doctor Marten's boots."
-- Alan Moore in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_
Adam Canning
msch...@condor.depaul.edu says...
It was also an issue in 500 years on. Khavaren thinking Daro wasn't
Tiassa because of her tendancy to wear dresses that were colour coded for
a different house.
And of course our favourite Riot organiser.
--
Adam
Dorothy J Heydt
Alexx S Kay <al...@TheWorld.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>>>> Castle Black_.
>>>
>>><spoiler space clunkily inserted>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>
>
>that Grita was Sennya's daughter, but it was implied in the strongest
>possible terms.
>
>Not that I think Khaavren knows any of this backstory, mind you. I'm
>sure he just objects to house-mixing.
He objected to it even when it was his own happiness that was at
stake. That's a pretty strong objection.
(Of course that didn't prevent him from having a serious
flirtation with a pretty Phoenix in _TPG_. It was simply that
*no*one expected that affair to result in marriage.)
Konrad Gaertner
>
> Kenneth Barclay Troop <tr...@login1.fas.harvard.edu> writes:
>
> >Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>
> >> MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
> >> Castle Black_.
>
> ><spoiler space clunkily inserted>
> <snip>
>
> >- Finally, the whole Piro surprise at the end struck me as
> >highly unbelievable, and at the very least way too fast and
> >clunky a change, especially for Brust.
>
> It was carefully set up. *I* certainly saw it coming a few hundred
> pages ahead. Paarfi carefully (and cleverly) foreshadowed it in
> the preface. And Tazendra's comments about how she felt towards Aerich
> also helped lay the groundwork. That is, lay the groundwork for any
> reader who isn't already fully familiar with the Dragaeran attitude
> towards crossbreeds.
There was also a rather subtle warning on the first page of
chapter 18.
--KG
Dorothy J Heydt
<stops to look it up and read it over carefully several times>
O-o-o-okay, so such heroic figures as Khaavren and Piro are being
treated romantically, not realistically. Okay. We got another
volume to go.
Louann Miller
Heydt) wrote:
>Konrad Gaertner <gae...@aol.com> wrote:
>>There was also a rather subtle warning on the first page of
>>chapter 18.
>
><stops to look it up and read it over carefully several times>
>
>O-o-o-okay, so such heroic figures as Khaavren and Piro are being
>treated romantically, not realistically. Okay. We got another
>volume to go.
I'm pretty sure that Par ... er, Brust intends to wallow in
romanticism straight through this set, even when also treating it
tongue in cheek. It's a Dumas thing.
David Eppstein
Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> There was also a rather subtle warning on the first page of
> chapter 18.
The digression about the appropriate classification of literature? I
confess it to be so subtle that it yet escapes me despite my having
pored carefully over it just this minute hence. Unless, perhaps, you
mean the suggestion that mixtures of styles might in some circumstances
be more appropriate than taking any one style to an extreme.
--
David Eppstein http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/
Univ. of California, Irvine, School of Information & Computer Science
Kenneth Barclay Troop
> Kenneth Barclay Troop <tr...@login1.fas.harvard.edu> writes:
>>Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>>> MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>>> Castle Black_.
>><spoiler space clunkily inserted>
> <snip>
>>- Finally, the whole Piro surprise at the end struck me as
>>highly unbelievable, and at the very least way too fast and
>>clunky a change, especially for Brust.
> It was carefully set up. *I* certainly saw it coming a few hundred
> pages ahead. Paarfi carefully (and cleverly) foreshadowed it in
> the preface. And Tazendra's comments about how she felt towards Aerich
> also helped lay the groundwork. That is, lay the groundwork for any
> reader who isn't already fully familiar with the Dragaeran attitude
> towards crossbreeds.
I should have been clearer about what the surprise was. I don't
feel there was anything in the book that foreshadowed Piro's
conversion to "road agent". Even allowing for the emotional
aftermath of his father's rejection of Ibronka, it seemed to
come out of the blue.
Now if that's the surprise you are referring to, I would love to
see specific references to help me see what I missed.
The only way this somewhat makes sense to me is that Khaavren
and Piro seized upon Piro's genuine attachment to Ibronka as
the pretense for a falling out, followed by Piro becoming a
renegade, in order to make him approachable by Kana's faction.
Of course, the fact that there is a strong prohibition against
inter-house marriage, and that Khaavren seems to accept and support
such a prohibition in 500YA, makes this theory unlikely.
Konrad Gaertner
>
> In article <3F46B3CE...@worldnet.att.net>,
> Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > There was also a rather subtle warning on the first page of
> > chapter 18.
>
> The digression about the appropriate classification of literature? I
> confess it to be so subtle that it yet escapes me despite my having
> pored carefully over it just this minute hence.
Its not what's written, but rather what isn't. Specifically, the
lack of mention of the two people Paarfi's books are named after.
--KG
Dorothy J Heydt
<quick glance at the page in question>
I observe that those two people are not specifically named on
that page. What then? Please elaborate: keeping in mind that
the title character of the third book (due out next April) is in
fact named on that page.
Damien Sullivan
>James Angove <ja...@ospf.net> writes:
>
>> Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote in
>> news:gtnakv4blh7d35k1l...@news.verizon.net:
>>
>> > Alexx S Kay <al...@TheWorld.com> wrote:
>> >>Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> writes:
>> >
>> >>>I see people have this now, so here we go. This is not a "distracted
>> >>>by shadows" post, but it rather wants to be.
>> >
>> >>>MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>> >>>Castle Black_.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>> Okay, wait. Why has it been determined that Blackwand isn't yet
>> Blackwand? I think a vital step has been missed here. I kinda got the
Because Morrolan getting it wasn't as dramatic as Vlad in _Issola_, and people
expect a matchup. Of course in _Dragon_ Aliera picked up hers without sucking
someone's soul into it.
>Not to my eye. He's being *very* careful to *avoid* calling it
>Blackwand. It's been described as a black wand. This is Dragaerans
>talking, including the *same ones* alive later; if it were Serioli say
>I'd say that's close enough to identity, but not for Dragaerans.
OTOH, Morrolan doesn't know about Great Weapons, and the others have no reason
to know it's a Great Weapon, except for Sethra, who may be more amused to not
tell him yet.
Also, I'm not sure anything Paarfi says without a documented paper trail is
really trustworthy.
-xx- Damien X-)
Konrad Gaertner
Ah, the joys of being subtle...
Actually, I'm talking about Khaavren and Piro, and the fact they
aren't on the list of chars we're supposed to admire.
--KG
Alexx S Kay
>In article <bi68u4$rvc$3...@pcls4.std.com>,
>Alexx S Kay <al...@TheWorld.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>>>>> Castle Black_.
>>>>
>>>><spoiler space clunkily inserted>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>Not that I think Khaavren knows any of this backstory, mind you. I'm
>>sure he just objects to house-mixing.
>He objected to it even when it was his own happiness that was at
>stake. That's a pretty strong objection.
Oh, it's clearly a major taboo in Dragaeran society. Hmmm. I wonder
if part of what makes Khaaven react so strongly is the implied failure
on his own part to raise his son properly?
>(Of course that didn't prevent him from having a serious
>flirtation with a pretty Phoenix in _TPG_. It was simply that
>*no*one expected that affair to result in marriage.)
There's lots of textev in the Paarfi material that mixed-house
love affairs ae fairly commonplace. If there is taboo involving
them, it's *much* weaker one than the prohibitions against marriage
and crossbreeds. Hmmmm again. Have we seen even *one* example
in all the Dragaeran books of a mixed marriage?
Alexx
Alexx Kay
Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers
al...@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~alexx
"Almost all reformers, however strict their social conscience, live
in houses just as big as they can pay for."
-- Logan Pearsall Smith
Alexx S Kay
>Alexx S Kay <al...@theworld.com> wrote:
>> Kenneth Barclay Troop <tr...@login1.fas.harvard.edu> writes:
>>>Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>>>> MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>>>> Castle Black_.
>>><spoiler space clunkily inserted>
>> <snip>
>>>- Finally, the whole Piro surprise at the end struck me as
>>>highly unbelievable, and at the very least way too fast and
>>>clunky a change, especially for Brust.
>> It was carefully set up. *I* certainly saw it coming a few hundred
>> pages ahead. Paarfi carefully (and cleverly) foreshadowed it in
>> the preface. And Tazendra's comments about how she felt towards Aerich
>> also helped lay the groundwork. That is, lay the groundwork for any
>> reader who isn't already fully familiar with the Dragaeran attitude
>> towards crossbreeds.
>I should have been clearer about what the surprise was. I don't
>feel there was anything in the book that foreshadowed Piro's
>conversion to "road agent". Even allowing for the emotional
>aftermath of his father's rejection of Ibronka, it seemed to
>come out of the blue.
>Now if that's the surprise you are referring to, I would love to
>see specific references to help me see what I missed.
Ah, I see. No, what I was referring to as "carefully set up" was
that Piro's love life was in for some extremely rocky times at best.
Turning road agent surprised me as well. But, despite being
surprising, I didn't find it at all implausible. To quote an
earlier discussion I had on this topic, "He's male, adolescent,
in love, and frustrated in that love. Rational behavior is not
particularly to be expected."
Alexx
Alexx Kay
Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers
al...@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~alexx
It was pity stayed his hand.
"Pity I don't have any more bullets," thought Frito.
-- BORED OF THE RINGS
Dorothy J Heydt
Alexx S Kay <al...@TheWorld.com> wrote:
>
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>There's lots of textev in the Paarfi material that mixed-house
>love affairs ae fairly commonplace. If there is taboo involving
>them, it's *much* weaker one than the prohibitions against marriage
>and crossbreeds. Hmmmm again. Have we seen even *one* example
>in all the Dragaeran books of a mixed marriage?
Marriage? No. There have been some inter-House liaisons with a
fair degree of commitment, however, as evidenced by the fact that
bastards do happen. I forget where it says, but it does say
somewhere, that Dragaeran females don't conceive unless they
choose to.
So if a woman chooses to conceive by a member of another House,
she's either crazy mad with love or thinks there's something in
it for her.
<speculation>
The timing is right for Sennya to have conceived Grita by Garland
when he was still court favorite, thinking this would give her an
advantage over him. Once he fell out of favor, of course, the
kid was a tremendous liability and was presumably shuffled off to
her father under cover of darkness and an assumed name.
</speculation>
Captain Button
Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>I see people have this now, so here we go. This is not a "distracted
>by shadows" post, but it rather wants to be.
>
>MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>Castle Black_.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Ch 57 p300: Paarfi really can't write romantic dialogue to save his
>life, at least not in this exchange between Zerika and Lazlo.
My question about this bit is:
IIRC, in _ Phoenix _ or thereabouts, Zerika tells Vlad that she has an
Easterner lover named Lazlo. But this is at least a couple hundred years
later, far longer than an Easterner could live normally. So therefore
either:
I'm misremebering the name, or that Zerika was speaking in the past tense
or something.
Zerika has an Easterners fetish (or other reasons like not wanting to have
accusations of favoritism if she took a lover of one of the other 16
Houses). The names are coincidence or she is like Lummox, running a
breeding program. Or she just calls all of her Easterner boy-toys "Lazlo".
Lazlo has had his life artifically extended somehow, via sorcery, divine
intervention, or other means.
Do we know anything further on this that I've overlooked?
--
American Express says I'm deceased. Boo! Consider yourself haunted.
Captain Button - but...@io.com
Kate Nepveu
>In article <p128kv86r7egl1pla...@news.verizon.net>,
>Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>>I see people have this now, so here we go. This is not a "distracted
>>by shadows" post, but it rather wants to be.
>>MASSIVE, BOOK DESTROYING SPOILERS for Steven Brust's _The Lord of
>>Castle Black_.
>>Ch 57 p300: Paarfi really can't write romantic dialogue to save his
>>life, at least not in this exchange between Zerika and Lazlo.
>My question about this bit is:
>IIRC, in _ Phoenix _ or thereabouts, Zerika tells Vlad that she has an
>Easterner lover named Lazlo. But this is at least a couple hundred years
>later, far longer than an Easterner could live normally. So therefore
>either:
[...]
>Lazlo has had his life artifically extended somehow, via sorcery, divine
>intervention, or other means.
Witchcraft, I believe we've been told (I can't remember the reference
right now, though, sorry).
--
Kate Nepveu
E-mail: kne...@steelypips.org
Home: http://www.steelypips.org/
Book log: http://www.steelypips.org/weblog/
Steve Simmons
Kate <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote on 08/25/03 at 0:53:
> but...@io.com (Captain Button) wrote:
> [...]
> > Lazlo has had his life artifically extended somehow, via sorcery,
> > divine intervention, or other means.
> Witchcraft, I believe we've been told (I can't remember the reference
> right now, though, sorry).
The clearest non-spoiler example of witchcraft extending an easterners
lifetime is the wizard in 'Brokedown Palace'. That doesn't indicate a
textref to explain Lazlo, but at least indicates the possibility.
--
"People tend to hit me." -- Mike Wayne, late 1989
Michael S. Schiffer
news:HK5C7...@kithrup.com:
>>>>>><spoiler space clunkily inserted>
>>>>>>
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...
> fair degree of commitment, however, as evidenced by the fact that
> bastards do happen. I forget where it says, but it does say
> somewhere, that Dragaeran females don't conceive unless they
> choose to.
IIRC, Brust has said that this is an issue on which Vlad is
misinformed-- what the Dragaerans have is reliable contraceptive
sorcery. It makes some sense that Vlad wouldn't know, since it
wouldn't have been an issue when he was patronizing Dragaeran
prostitutes, and who knows whether he and Cawti used magic, materia
medica, or nothing at all? Tvira gur rkvfgrapr bs Iynq Abengune,
"abguvat ng nyy" vf pregnvayl cbffvoyr.
This doesn't necessarily change the social dynamics. It might,
though, if the contraceptive sorcery was only developed post-
Interregnum. Even if not, requiring a positive decision not to
conceive will have different results than requiring such a decision
to conceive.
Captain Button
In that case, perhaps the contraceptive sorcery was unavailable or
unreliable during the Interregnum. Which might mean more half-breeds were
born, who then push for equal rights (or less unequal ones, anyway) leading
to Norathar's edict.
Of course, the increase in half-breed births might also lead to a backlash
of disapproval by the older generation.
Alexx S Kay
>In article <bibfla$hb4$2...@pcls4.std.com>,
>Alexx S Kay <al...@TheWorld.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>><spoiler space clunkily inserted>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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>So if a woman chooses to conceive by a member of another House,
>she's either crazy mad with love or thinks there's something in
>it for her.
><speculation>
>The timing is right for Sennya to have conceived Grita by Garland
>when he was still court favorite, thinking this would give her an
>advantage over him. Once he fell out of favor, of course, the
>kid was a tremendous liability and was presumably shuffled off to
>her father under cover of darkness and an assumed name.
></speculation>
Possible, though a bit Machiavellian for a Dzur.
I wonder if it is possible for a devious male (e.g. Greycat) to foil the
standard sorcerous "birth control" spells. We don't have any direct
information on Dragaeran attitudes towards abortion are. Though the
language Paarfi uses on pages 111-112 of LoCB (the discussion of when
in pregnancy Orb links are acquired) sheds some weak, indirect light.
Alexx
Alexx Kay
Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers
al...@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~alexx
This life is a test. It is only a test.
Had it been an actual life, you would have received
further instructions as to what to do and where to go.
You may or may not be issued an actual life later.
[Seen on a Nancy Button, http://www.nancybuttons.com/]
use...@kesinger.com
: Hmm, I think we've actually got the spoilers removed at this point.
We're just spoiling a different book. [BP]
: Kate <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote on 08/25/03 at 0:53:
: > Witchcraft, I believe we've been told (I can't remember the reference
: > right now, though, sorry).
: The clearest non-spoiler example of witchcraft extending an easterners
: lifetime is the wizard in 'Brokedown Palace'. That doesn't indicate a
: textref to explain Lazlo, but at least indicates the possibility.
Was the wizard in BP a witch or a sorcerer? I thought he was the latter,
offering to teach Miklos about sorcery, but it's been a few years since
I read the book.
==Jake
Emma Pease
Sorcerer, that is why he lost his power at the end of Brokedown Palace.
Morrolan's chief witch in the current book has lived at least a
hundred or so years but whether that is accurate depends on Paarfi's
reliability (I'm even more dubious of the shapechanging familiars).
She is not the person in charge of the circle in Issola (or to be more
exact the person in charge in Issola has a different name).
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
Andrew Plotkin
>
> Morrolan's chief witch in the current book has lived at least a
> hundred or so years but whether that is accurate depends on Paarfi's
> reliability (I'm even more dubious of the shapechanging familiars).
Okay, this is a question I've been worrying.
When you people read the Paarfi books, do you get a picture of what
"really" is going on? Behind the Paarfication? (Paarfifificaation?)
I don't. Aside from the dialogue (I'm convinced nobody in the Empire
talks like that, before or after the interregnum, not Paarfi, not
nobody) I never get a sense of "this is what people really thought,
this is how they really acted, Paarfi just missed the clues".
But maybe *I'm* just missing clues. Anyone?
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
J.B. Moreno
> Here, Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Morrolan's chief witch in the current book has lived at least a
> > hundred or so years but whether that is accurate depends on Paarfi's
> > reliability (I'm even more dubious of the shapechanging familiars).
>
> Okay, this is a question I've been worrying.
>
> When you people read the Paarfi books, do you get a picture of what
> "really" is going on? Behind the Paarfication? (Paarfifificaation?)
I do -- I can't say if it agree's with anyone elses picture, but I
certainly have a picture in mind.
What I get is sorta like the Romeo and Juliet stories with a modern
setting and the original language -- most of it is in the action, but
the dialog still gives you a sense of what the people mean.
Most of the dialog between page 204 and 207 is ridiculous, but then
comes Taz and "No, because soon Pel will tire of his game, and point me
at someone to fight, and then, well, I will fight, all of this careful
contemplation will be forgotten, and only the fight, and its results,
will be remembered." which just fits perfectly.
But on 283 you have an exchange between her and the Empress, "Oh, the
temple, certainly." " And the stables?" "Easily." "And the
fortifications?" "Probably." ... "And you could hold it there?" "As to
that---" "Well?" "I am certain that, once I have learned the proper
spell, it will be a simple enough matter to cast it.", which isn't how
I'd imagine that conversation to actually go.
So, as I read it, Paarf wraps his flowery words around what was really
said. You have to ignore the flowery bits, but the heart of it is
there.
--
JBM
"Everything is futile." -- Marvin of Borg
how...@brazee.net
On 25-Aug-2003, Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
> I don't. Aside from the dialogue (I'm convinced nobody in the Empire
> talks like that, before or after the interregnum, not Paarfi, not
> nobody) I never get a sense of "this is what people really thought,
> this is how they really acted, Paarfi just missed the clues".
That could be. Certainly we have seen our other narrator doesn't know
everything.
I am curious about that world, but not enough to finish my fourth Paarfi
book. That dialog just got too much for me.
David Silberstein
Andrew Plotkin <erky...@eblong.com> wrote:
>Here, Emma Pease <em...@kanpai.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Morrolan's chief witch in the current book has lived at least a
>> hundred or so years but whether that is accurate depends on Paarfi's
>> reliability (I'm even more dubious of the shapechanging familiars).
>
>Okay, this is a question I've been worrying.
>
>When you people read the Paarfi books, do you get a picture of what
>"really" is going on? Behind the Paarfication? (Paarfifificaation?)
Sometimes.
I can sort of "see" Paarfi doing various researches into the events
he wants to talk about, digging through old archives, interviewing
various parties, and sometimes even visiting the locales personally.
Then he takes this mass of data, and stirs it all together, and is
quite willing to make shit up. And then he tells his story based
on his investigations ("history" means "inquiry").
There's the preface to /Paths of the Dead/, where he scoffs at the
stuff about Adron & the 2nd Dragon-Jhereg War as follows:
"The reader is encouraged to consider: Aliera makes an
interpretation; Sethra summarizes this interpretation; some
third party records this summary; a historian writes based
on this record. How far we are removed from truth! To call
this "hearsay" is to accord it far more weight, even, than it
deserves.
The thing is, I'm pretty sure that that is exactly how Paarfi
does his own information gathering. :-)
>I don't. Aside from the dialogue (I'm convinced nobody in the Empire
>talks like that, before or after the interregnum, not Paarfi, not
>nobody)
Oh, I am nearly in agreement with you. Although I have noted that
Sethra and Morrolan *do* have more formal speech patterns, sometimes.
Nothing as elaborate as Paarfi's prolixity, of course. But it is
still there, and I sometimes wonder if perhaps Vlad is eliding some
of that Paarfian prolixity. :-)
> I never get a sense of "this is what people really thought,
>this is how they really acted, Paarfi just missed the clues".
Hmm. Note that in /Phoenix Guards/, he quite baldly states that
he does not go back and revise earlier text based on new information.
>
>But maybe *I'm* just missing clues. Anyone?
>
Also note that in /Phoenix Guards/, Khaavren & Tazendra interrupt
a meeting between Gyorg Lavode (the Captain of the Lavodes) & Seodra
(the Court Wizard). Yet at the end, Khaavren testifies under the
Orb that the meeting was between Seodra & Lytra e'Tenith (the Warlord).
Besides this apparant contradiction, note that in the Epilogue to tPG,
and at the beginning of /Five Hundred Years After/, Paarfi offers a
few paragraphs about the White Goblet affair, in which Gyorg Lavode
saved the Emperor's life, and Lytra e'Tenith was executed for treason.
One can imagine all *kinds* of political intrigue going on under the
surface, in which the later affair affected how events from the
earlier one were recorded. And so on and so forth.
David Kennedy
> When you people read the Paarfi books, do you get a picture of what
> "really" is going on? Behind the Paarfication? (Paarfifificaation?)
>
> I don't. Aside from the dialogue (I'm convinced nobody in the Empire
> talks like that, before or after the interregnum, not Paarfi, not
> nobody) I never get a sense of "this is what people really thought,
> this is how they really acted, Paarfi just missed the clues".
>
> But maybe *I'm* just missing clues. Anyone?
Give that man a prize for articulating exactly my feelings on
finishing _The Lord Of Castle Black_ yesterday. I didn't, gasp,
enjoy it. Now, wait, I know, heresy. I like Brust, I enjoy the
Dumas pastiche - but TLOCB left me cold.
At first I thought it was because I read it hot on the heels of
_Scaramouche_, but on further reflection I decided that a lot
of the characterisation was flip and shallow - Morrolan as
a young man is a lot less interesting than I had hoped to
read about. The discovery and construction of Castle Black?
Almost mundane. The recovery of the orb? In some ways, dull.
The origin of a villain for the later Taltos books? Hardly
thrilling - interesting? yes, thrilling? no.
The grandest passion of the entire book features a
conversation about noodles. Paarfi's voice is part of this,
but somehow this time the real story isn't coming through.
--
David Kennedy
www.dkennedy.org
Damien Sullivan
>Morrolan's chief witch in the current book has lived at least a
>hundred or so years but whether that is accurate depends on Paarfi's
>reliability (I'm even more dubious of the shapechanging familiars).
Also she's a direct priestess of Verra. The other witches don't seem to be
living that long.
-xx- Damien X-)
Dorothy J Heydt
And longevity doesn't just happen to her as a by-product of
serving Verra, either. She spends a lot of time soaking in
herbal baths and stuff to maintain her youthful condition.
Andrew Plotkin
> In article <bigot1$gju$1...@naig.caltech.edu>,
> Damien Sullivan <pho...@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> >emma+...@kanpai.stanford.edu wrote:
> >
> >>Morrolan's chief witch in the current book has lived at least a
> >>hundred or so years but whether that is accurate depends on Paarfi's
> >>reliability (I'm even more dubious of the shapechanging familiars).
> >
> >Also she's a direct priestess of Verra. The other witches don't seem to be
> >living that long.
>
> And longevity doesn't just happen to her as a by-product of
> serving Verra, either. She spends a lot of time soaking in
> herbal baths and stuff to maintain her youthful condition.
One presumes that a witchcraft spell to maintain youth would look just
like that. You'd have to spent hours every day meditating in a bath
with just the right herbs, perfumes, chants, visualizations.
Justin Fang
Alexx S Kay <al...@TheWorld.com> wrote:
>>A small note: I wonder if the unnamed Dragon soldier on page 318-319 of
>>_Lord of Castle Black_ is actually Dortmond from _Dragon_? Both are
>>described as large, middle-aged, and possessed of comfy folding chairs
>>and no desire for promotion.
>And are either of these identical with the Dortmond in _Paths of the Dead_
>who got lucky with Ibronka?
Huh. I'd forgotten about him. If it was the same one he'd have to have
changed sides in the meantime though.
--
Justin Fang (jus...@panix.com)
Alexx S Kay
Interesting point. Of couse, such things do happen, even without the
involvement of witchcraft...
Alexx
Alexx Kay
Opinions expressed are my own and not necessarily those of my employers
al...@world.std.com
http://world.std.com/~alexx
"I was extremely immature at the time in every way that matters in the real
world. I wanted to achieve illumination and enlightenment -- but simply as
a means to achieve wealth and fame. And to be _really_ honest, the wealth
and fame were only an interest insofar as they led to sexual 'conquests' --
and I had been married less than a year at that time. Immature doesn't
half sum it up." -- Dave Sim, interviewed by Charles Brownstein
Steve Simmons
> Aside from the dialogue (I'm convinced nobody in the Empire
> talks like that, before or after the interregnum, not Paarfi, not
> nobody) . . .
And you'd be right in being convinced of that. This is said explicitly
in one of the forwards or afterwards to the Paarfi books.
--
"The reason we come up with new versions is not to fix bugs. It's
absolutely not. It's the stupidest reason to buy a new version I ever heard."
-- Bill Gates, 1995 interview in Focus Magazine (Germany)
Mike Schilling
"Steve Simmons" <s...@lokkur.dexter.mi.us> wrote in message
news:slrnblk5l...@lokkur.dexter.mi.us...
> Andrew <erky...@eblong.com> wrote on 08/26/03 at 3:34:
>
> > Aside from the dialogue (I'm convinced nobody in the Empire
> > talks like that, before or after the interregnum, not Paarfi, not
> > nobody) . . .
>
> And you'd be right in being convinced of that. This is said explicitly
> in one of the forwards or afterwards to the Paarfi books.
Yes, the way they actually spoke was maddeningly verbose.