J.K. Rowling puts hex on Christianity
Bill Tuthill
the fastest-opening movie in history, to the dismay of
Babtists in Fargo ND and Catholics in Memphis TN.
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20011116/en/film-potterschool_1.html
The director Chris Columbus is obviously a demented
egomanic, but his assistants (I assume it was they)
were able to assemble a great cast. Special effects
are hokey but acting and photography are excellent.
Christianity is in retreat I guess, sandwiched as it is
between the twin specters of Islam and Witchcraft.
Francis Muir
Are you, by any chance, a Canadian?
Arindam Banerjee
"Bill Tuthill" <ca_cr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:tvjfaep...@corp.supernews.com...
> The best-selling book(s) in history quickly become
> the fastest-opening movie in history, to the dismay of
> Babtists in Fargo ND and Catholics in Memphis TN.
Why are they dismayed?
I bowed to family pressure and we have bought tickets
for the 4th of December.
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20011116/en/film-potterschool_1.html
>
> The director Chris Columbus is obviously a demented
> egomanic, but his assistants (I assume it was they)
> were able to assemble a great cast. Special effects
> are hokey but acting and photography are excellent.
Let's see.
> Christianity is in retreat I guess, sandwiched as it is
> between the twin specters of Islam and Witchcraft.
Is Witchcraft a religion now? From the rapid growth
of churches in Melbourne, over the last ten years, and
with the renewed election of the conservative Liberals
to Parliament (led by Mr John Howard, a Victorian
gentleman) I conclude that Christianity is much better
off than it was in the last century.
Arindam Banerjee.
John McCarthy
It is silly to regard the Harry Potter enthusiasm or children dressed
as witches on Halloween or the Lord of the Rings as a rival to
Christianity. That's not what the authors have in mind or how the
enthusiasts take it.
--
John McCarthy, Computer Science Department, Stanford, CA 94305
http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/
He who refuses to do arithmetic is doomed to talk nonsense.
Ryan Allen
the shit for pudding for your thanksgiving feast
"Å brøkéñ Çløçk Îs øñly rîgh† 2
†îmés å dåy. Å ÐÜM B-ASS îs s†üpîƒiéd
ƒor åñ é†érñål dåmñå†îøn!"
-R¥åñ Ålléñ
Bruce McGuffin
Took the whole clan Tuesday afternoon for my daughter's
birthday. Herein some brief reviews:
My children: wonderful!
Me: Fun, but really a better book than movie
(too episodic)
My father: I liked it better than I expected to
(he was heard to laugh out-loud at least
three times)
The tykes were observed playing Hogwarts this morning.
Something they haven't done for about a year.
I take the notion by some religios folks that Harry Potter is about
real witchcraft, and so is in competition with christianity as
evidence that my young children are smarter than some religious
leaders.
Bruce McGuffin
Marko Amnell
> The tykes were observed playing Hogwarts this morning.
> Something they haven't done for about a year.
> I take the notion by some religios folks that Harry Potter
> is about real witchcraft, and so is in competition with
> christianity as evidence that my young children are smarter
> than some religious leaders.
Am I the only one to have noticed the spooky similarity
between Hogwarts and Osama bin Laden's training camps
in Afghanistan for his little boy terrorists?
David J. Loftus
> It is silly to regard the Harry Potter enthusiasm or children dressed
> as witches on Halloween or the Lord of the Rings as a rival to
> Christianity. That's not what the authors have in mind or how the
> enthusiasts take it.
Although we can dream, can't we...?
David Loftus
ObQuote: "Well, we did do the nose ... but she's a witch!"
Francis Muir
Marko Amnell wrote:
> Am I the only one to have noticed the spooky similarity
> between Hogwarts and Osama bin Laden's training camps
> in Afghanistan for his little boy terrorists?
Yes.
John S. Watson
> between the twin specters of Islam and Witchcraft.
Since in the Harry Potter books,
everyone in the Hogworts school celebrates Xmas
(except perhaps the bad guy), aren't they all Cristians?'
They're obviously not Catholics or Baptists tho ...
but neither am I.
JW
Stephen Hayes
Bill Tuthill wrote in a message to All:
BT> From: Bill Tuthill <ca_cr...@yahoo.com>
BT> The best-selling book(s) in history quickly become
BT> the fastest-opening movie in history, to the dismay of
BT> Babtists in Fargo ND and Catholics in Memphis TN.
BT> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20011116/en/film-potterschool_1.h
BT> tml
BT> The director Chris Columbus is obviously a demented
BT> egomanic, but his assistants (I assume it was they)
BT> were able to assemble a great cast. Special effects
BT> are hokey but acting and photography are excellent.
I'm looking forward to seeing it.
BT> Christianity is in retreat I guess, sandwiched as it is
BT> between the twin specters of Islam and Witchcraft.
The breast stroke is in retreat, I guess, sandwiched as it is between the twin
spooks of polarized light and zebra crossings.
Keep well
Steve Hayes
WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm
E-mail: haye...@yahoo.com
FamilyNet <> Internet Gated Mail
http://www.fmlynet.org
Stephen Hayes
Arindam Banerjee wrote in a message to Arindam Banerjee:
> Christianity is in retreat I guess, sandwiched as it is
> between the twin specters of Islam and Witchcraft.
AB> Is Witchcraft a religion now? From the rapid growth
AB> of churches in Melbourne, over the last ten years, and
AB> with the renewed election of the conservative Liberals
AB> to Parliament (led by Mr John Howard, a Victorian
AB> gentleman) I conclude that Christianity is much better
AB> off than it was in the last century.
Don't forget the Jedi Knights.
I'm not sure whose side they are on, though.
How many teams can one have in a Quidditch tournament?
David J. Loftus
But the incantations WORK at Hogwarts....
Michael S. Morris
Wednesday, the 21st of November, 2001
Bruce McGuffin wrote:
Me: Fun, but really a better book than movie (too episodic)
That goes without saying. But, my family went Saturday night
and we were pretty darn impressed. I guess I felt that rare
recognition in which the "author" of the movie plainly loved
the book in the same way that I had loved it, and made the film
how I am certain I would have made it.
Mike Morris
(msmo...@netdirect.net)
Richard Harter
Spooky indeed. What do you perceive as the similarity?
e_coli...@pacbell.net
>
> "Bruce McGuffin" <mcgu...@ll.mit.edu> wrote in message
> news:vk66846...@ll.mit.edu...
> tomorrow and one of the beer truck drivers for the micro mentioned
> that he was listening to some talk radio and someone claiming to be
> a Presbyterian called in , saying that Presbyterians were against HARRY
> POTTER since Hogwarts implied a love of pork and that Presbyterians
> couldn't eat pork, but they could eat bacon, since there was no blood in
> bacon.
>
> He said he that he was no theologian, but a mere beer truck driver and
> even he could tell there was something very wrong here...
The whole world is going Potty.
jimC
Stephen Hayes
Bruce McGuffin wrote in a message to All:
BM> I take the notion by some religios folks that Harry Potter is about
BM> real witchcraft, and so is in competition with christianity as
BM> evidence that my young children are smarter than some religious
BM> leaders.
Bill Tuthill is a religious leader?
Stephen Hayes
Marko Amnell wrote in a message to All:
MA> From: marko_...@hotmail.com (Marko Amnell)
MA> Bruce McGuffin wrote:
> The tykes were observed playing Hogwarts this morning.
> Something they haven't done for about a year.
> I take the notion by some religios folks that Harry Potter
> is about real witchcraft, and so is in competition with
> christianity as evidence that my young children are smarter
> than some religious leaders.
MA> Am I the only one to have noticed the spooky similarity
MA> between Hogwarts and Osama bin Laden's training camps
MA> in Afghanistan for his little boy terrorists?
Playing fields of Eton and all that.
Bloke Down The Pub
"Michael S. Morris" <msmo...@netdirect.net> wrote in message >
> Bruce McGuffin wrote:
> Me: Fun, but really a better book than movie (too episodic)
> That goes without saying. But, my family went Saturday night
> and we were pretty darn impressed. I guess I felt that rare
> recognition in which the "author" of the movie plainly loved
> the book in the same way that I had loved it, and made the film
> how I am certain I would have made it.
I read in the local rag that Rowling insisted that the film be as true to
the book as possible and that the producers followed her instructions to her
satisfaction. This could explain why it appears "episodic". The reviewer
also made the comment that movies "light up different parts of the brain"
than books and that the movie has already been made a lot more cheaply and
probably better in many a head of an 11 year old or 14 year old.
tejas
I was at the microbrewery today, getting a couple of liters of porter for
tomorrow and one of the beer truck drivers for the micro mentioned
that he was listening to some talk radio and someone claiming to be
a Presbyterian called in , saying that Presbyterians were against HARRY
POTTER since Hogwarts implied a love of pork and that Presbyterians
couldn't eat pork, but they could eat bacon, since there was no blood in
bacon.
He said he that he was no theologian, but a mere beer truck driver and
even he could tell there was something very wrong here...
--
Ted Samsel
tbsa...@infi.net
http://home.infi.net/~tbsamsel
tejas
"Richard Harter" <c...@tiac.net> wrote in message
news:fa4c142c.0111...@posting.google.com...
There's no similarity. Little girls are at Hogwarts.
Has Marko been eating out of the same fridge that feeds
John P David?
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>"=C5 =90=90br=F8k=E9=F1 =C7l=F8=E7k =CEs =F8=F1ly r=EEgh=86 2
>=86=EEm=E9s =E5 d=E5y. =C5 =D0=DCM=90B-ASS =EEs s=86=FCp=EE=83i=E9d
>=83or =E5=F1 =E9=86=E9r=F1=E5l d=E5m=F1=E5=86=EE=F8n!"
>
>-R=A5=E5=F1 =C5ll=E9=F1
Oh well said, Sir/Madam!
Such wit! Such wisdom!
--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: haye...@yahoo.com
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/litmain.htm
Marko Amnell
> > Am I the only one to have noticed the spooky similarity
> > between Hogwarts and Osama bin Laden's training camps
> > in Afghanistan for his little boy terrorists?
>
> Spooky indeed. What do you perceive as the similarity?
Jokes should never be explained. Freud never understood
this and that is why he failed.
ObBook. _Jokes and their Relation to the Unconscious_
Arindam Banerjee
"Stephen Hayes" <Stephen.Hayesp...@fmlynet.org> wrote in message
news:0040...@fmlynet.org...
> FamilyNet Newsgate
>
> Arindam Banerjee wrote in a message to Arindam Banerjee:
>
> > Christianity is in retreat I guess, sandwiched as it is
> > between the twin specters of Islam and Witchcraft.
>
> AB> Is Witchcraft a religion now? From the rapid growth
> AB> of churches in Melbourne, over the last ten years, and
> AB> with the renewed election of the conservative Liberals
> AB> to Parliament (led by Mr John Howard, a Victorian
> AB> gentleman) I conclude that Christianity is much better
> AB> off than it was in the last century.
>
> Don't forget the Jedi Knights.
Wonderful Christians!
> I'm not sure whose side they are on, though.
They seem Catholic.
> How many teams can one have in a Quidditch tournament?
I don't know.
Arindam Banerjee
> >
> > Don't forget the Jedi Knights.
>
> Wonderful Christians!
>
> > I'm not sure whose side they are on, though.
>
> They seem Catholic.
I should have added "Jesuits".
Arindam Banerjee
Michael L. Siemon
<adda...@bigpond.com> wrote:
+ century.
+ > >
+ > > Don't forget the Jedi Knights.
+ >
+ > Wonderful Christians!
+ >
+ > > I'm not sure whose side they are on, though.
+ >
+ > They seem Catholic.
+
+ I should have added "Jesuits".
Nah; Franciscans -- they clearly don't have the doctrinal flexibility
of the Jesuits, and there is this romantic attachment to other living
things, with little or no discrimination ...
Richard Harter
>
> > > Am I the only one to have noticed the spooky similarity
> > > between Hogwarts and Osama bin Laden's training camps
> > > in Afghanistan for his little boy terrorists?
> >
> > Spooky indeed. What do you perceive as the similarity?
>
> Jokes should never be explained. Freud never understood
> this and that is why he failed.
Freud was at Hogwarts? I don't understand. Please explain.
Crowfoot
<tbsa...@infi.net> wrote:
> I was at the microbrewery today, getting a couple of liters of porter for
> tomorrow and one of the beer truck drivers for the micro mentioned
> that he was listening to some talk radio and someone claiming to be
> a Presbyterian called in , saying that Presbyterians were against HARRY
> POTTER since Hogwarts implied a love of pork and that Presbyterians
> couldn't eat pork, but they could eat bacon, since there was no blood in
> bacon.
>
> He said he that he was no theologian, but a mere beer truck driver and
> even he could tell there was something very wrong here...
Sight. With his head, yes. Why is the world so stuffed-to-busting
with certifiable lunatics, every one of them talking a mile a minute
on the media?
SMC
--
Crowfoot
Crowfoot
<mcgu...@ll.mit.edu> wrote:
> I take the notion by some religios folks that Harry Potter is about
> real witchcraft, and so is in competition with christianity as
> evidence that my young children are smarter than some religious
> leaders.
>
> Bruce McGuffin
Godamighty, how could anything with a John Williams score be about
"real" anything?
I guess my question would be, why does Christianity (and for that
matter Orthodox Islam and Judaism) attract so many terrified, angry
people with no imagination? So depressing . . .
SMC
--
Crowfoot
Arindam Banerjee
"Michael L. Siemon" <m...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:231120010010042297%m...@panix.com...
I don't know about Franciscans, I was educated by the Jesuits.
Jesuits - Jedi... the first syllable matches, and on that my case
partly rests. Besides, their dedication not to superstition, but
service, based upon real magic (of the kind which Ms Rowling and
her admirers have not the faintest idea) clinches the issue.
Arindam Banerjee.
Paul Ilechko
John McCarthy wrote:
>
> > Christianity is in retreat I guess, sandwiched as it is
> > between the twin specters of Islam and Witchcraft.
>
> It is silly to regard the Harry Potter enthusiasm or children dressed
> as witches on Halloween or the Lord of the Rings as a rival to
> Christianity. That's not what the authors have in mind or how the
> enthusiasts take it.
Not as silly as you taking a glib comment as a serious statement.
Paul Ilechko
"John S. Watson" wrote:
> Bill Tuthill <ca_cr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<tvjfaep...@corp.supernews.com>...
> >
> > Christianity is in retreat I guess, sandwiched as it is
> > between the twin specters of Islam and Witchcraft.
>
> Since in the Harry Potter books,
> everyone in the Hogworts school celebrates Xmas
> (except perhaps the bad guy), aren't they all Cristians?'
>
You think "Xmas" is a religious holiday ?
John S. Watson
> "John S. Watson" wrote:
>
> > Since in the Harry Potter books,
> > everyone in the Hogworts school celebrates Xmas
> >
>
> You think "Xmas" is a religious holiday ?
It depends whether or not you define Christians as "religious".
JW
Lewis Mammel
Crowfoot wrote:
>
> I guess my question would be, why does Christianity (and for that
> matter Orthodox Islam and Judaism) attract so many terrified, angry
> people with no imagination? So depressing . . .
I'm not so sure that delight in Harry Potter is the emblem of
an imaginative mind. The stories are crammed with every supernatural
cliche you ever heard of, any one of which might have been the
focus of a spooky story. It's as though Rowling, instead of meting these
out as treats, just gathers them up and dumps them on you; much as
Harry buys out the treat cart on the train. It's a strategy of profligacy,
and evidently a very successful one.
When I read the book and came to the part where they go to their
rooms on the first night and encounter various wandering ghosts,
I thought "Yikes, this would be terrifying!" ( I must say that I got
the same feeling at that point in the movie, true to the book as it was.)
So I might ask the question, how jaded can you be, how meaningless must
this occult cacophony be to you, for it to be a source of mere amusement.
When I was five or so, I screamed when the eyeglasses jumped onto
Alice's face in the Disney movie, sensitive soul that I was. I thought
of this when Prof. McGonagall ( in the movie ) reappears in human form
in mid flight after jumping off the desk as a cat. Remember CAT PEOPLE,
wherein this transformation was a centerpiece of horror?
Now a mere CGI bon-bon.
Lew Mammel, Jr.
Paul Ilechko
"John S. Watson" wrote:
You think only Christians celebrate "Xmas" ? The whole point of the "X" is to remove the
"Christ", thus making it safe for non-believers to flock to the toy store and buy Harry
Potter merchandise. As a non-christian myself, I celebrate Christmas as a winter holiday
for the family to exchange gifts, eat turkey, and have fun together.
Lewis Mammel
Paul Ilechko wrote:
>
> You think only Christians celebrate "Xmas" ? The whole point of the "X" is to remove the
> "Christ", thus making it safe for non-believers to flock to the toy store and buy Harry
> Potter merchandise.
The "X" is chi, for Christ, and it's a pious expression, dating
from 1551, according to Webster's 9th N.C.D. The whole idea of
X as an unkown, or substitute, derives from an illiterate man's
"mark" - indicating not just a man, but a Christian.
> As a non-christian myself, I celebrate Christmas as a winter holiday
> for the family to exchange gifts, eat turkey, and have fun together.
Of course, many Jews eschew Christmas, as being inevitably Christian,
but some Christians eschew it as well, as being unChristian.
"I say it's spinach and I say the hell with it."
Lew Mammel, Jr.
spampot
>
> jimC
Me, I celebrate The Yule. After all, "The solstice is the reason for
the season."
Mary Eliz.
Lewis Mammel
jimC wrote:
> Why not just call the damn thing 'Holiday' and be done with it?
Because then Osama wins!
Lew Mammel, Jr.
Lewis Mammel
"Diane L. Schirf" wrote:
>
> In article <3BFFF070...@worldnet.att.net>, Lewis Mammel
> <l.ma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > > You think only Christians celebrate "Xmas" ? The whole point of the "X" is
> > > to remove the
> > > "Christ", thus making it safe for non-believers to flock to the toy store
> > > and buy Harry
> > > Potter merchandise.
> >
> > The "X" is chi, for Christ,
>
> Whoops, should have read ahead. That's what I was trying to say. Wasn't
> chi on the cross?
>
That would be INRI, the Latin initials of Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews.
Looking this up, I find that scripture has it spelled out. The initials
seem to have arisen as a tradition in representative art.
Lew Mammel, Jr.
E. coli
Does anybody else here have difficulty spotting forged posts?
jimC
Michael L. Siemon
<del...@mindspring.com> wrote:
+ In article <3C005830...@worldnet.att.net>, Lewis Mammel
+ <l.ma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
+
+ > > Whoops, should have read ahead. That's what I was trying to say. Wasn't
+ > > chi on the cross?
+ > >
+ >
+ > That would be INRI, the Latin initials of Jesus of Nazareth King of the
+ > Jews.
+ > Looking this up, I find that scripture has it spelled out. The initials
+ > seem to have arisen as a tradition in representative art.
+
+ Well, of course, since it was a Roman court and Roman soldiers. :::
+ thwacks self :::
+
+ Okay, I'm pretty sure chi is used in medieval illustrations and the
+ book of Kells. Pretty sure.
The "chi-rho" is a standard symbol of Christian iconography, of roughly
equal age to INRI or the "ichthys" acronym. To ordinary American church-
goers, it looks like a conflation of an X and P. It is quite common even
in Protestant churches where it is, effectively, Greek to congregants.
Note that Roman "courts" (insofar as applicable here) and soldiers have
little or nothing to do with the Greek of the gospels or other Christian
writings of the first century of the new religion. The emergence of a
Latin Christianity is a somewhat later phenomenon, conditioned on the
importance of the city of Rome and its multi-ethnic and multi-religious
populace.
E. coli
>
> In article <3C005830...@worldnet.att.net>, Lewis Mammel
But Chi is a cross itself, although I guess Tau is a better depiction.
> Okay, I'm pretty sure chi is used in medieval illustrations and the
> book of Kells. Pretty sure.
CH as in CHristos, "the annointed". (Note the similarity to the spelling of
Crisco. I wonder if JC ever annointed himself with Crisco like the AG.)
And on Dec. 25, it was the custom in Judea to go out to Kaplan's Deli for
dinner. Or at least it is in my household.
jimC
E. coli
>
> In article <241120012128161792%del...@mindspring.com>, Diane L. Schirf
> <del...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> + In article <3C005830...@worldnet.att.net>, Lewis Mammel
> + <l.ma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> +
> + > > Whoops, should have read ahead. That's what I was trying to say. Wasn't
> + > > chi on the cross?
> + > >
> + >
> + > That would be INRI, the Latin initials of Jesus of Nazareth King of the
> + > Jews.
> + > Looking this up, I find that scripture has it spelled out. The initials
> + > seem to have arisen as a tradition in representative art.
> +
> + Well, of course, since it was a Roman court and Roman soldiers. :::
> + thwacks self :::
> +
> + Okay, I'm pretty sure chi is used in medieval illustrations and the
> + book of Kells. Pretty sure.
>
> The "chi-rho" is a standard symbol of Christian iconography, of roughly
> equal age to INRI or the "ichthys" acronym.
Silly me. I thought ichthus is "fish" which has its own significance
in Christianity.
jimC
Stephen Hayes
Arindam Banerjee wrote in a message to Arindam Banerjee:
AB> From: "Arindam Banerjee" <adda...@bigpond.com>
AB> century.
> >
> > Don't forget the Jedi Knights.
>
> Wonderful Christians!
>
> > I'm not sure whose side they are on, though.
>
> They seem Catholic.
AB> I should have added "Jesuits".
Jesuits fight with laser swords?
Keep well
Steve Hayes
WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/steve.htm
E-mail: haye...@yahoo.com
FamilyNet <> Internet Gated Mail
http://www.fmlynet.org
Stephen Hayes
Arindam Banerjee wrote in a message to Arindam Banerjee:
AB> From: "Arindam Banerjee" <adda...@bigpond.com>
AB> "Stephen Hayes" <Stephen.Hayesp...@fmlynet.org> wrote in
AB> message news:0040...@fmlynet.org...
> FamilyNet Newsgate
>
> Arindam Banerjee wrote in a message to Arindam Banerjee:
>
> > Christianity is in retreat I guess, sandwiched as it is
> > between the twin specters of Islam and Witchcraft.
>
> AB> Is Witchcraft a religion now? From the rapid growth
> AB> of churches in Melbourne, over the last ten years, and
> AB> with the renewed election of the conservative Liberals
> AB> to Parliament (led by Mr John Howard, a Victorian
> AB> gentleman) I conclude that Christianity is much better
> AB> off than it was in the last century.
>
> Don't forget the Jedi Knights.
AB> Wonderful Christians!
> I'm not sure whose side they are on, though.
AB> They seem Catholic.
They are the third side of the sandwich, squeezing Christianity between Jedi
Knights, Islam and Witchcraft.
Stephen Hayes
Crowfoot wrote in a message to All:
C> I guess my question would be, why does Christianity (and for that
C> matter Orthodox Islam and Judaism) attract so many terrified, angry
C> people with no imagination? So depressing . . .
Same reason as most other worldviews/religions/ideologies attract them --
because they are there.
Stephen Hayes
John S. Watson wrote in a message to All:
> You think "Xmas" is a religious holiday ?
JSW> It depends whether or not you define Christians as "religious".
Xmas, with its spirit of giving, gives us all an opportunity to reflect on what
we most deeply and sincerely believe in. I refer, of course, to money.
-- Tom Lehrer.
Arindam Banerjee
"Stephen Hayes" <Stephen.Hayesp...@fmlynet.org> wrote in message
news:0040...@fmlynet.org...
> FamilyNet Newsgate
>
> Arindam Banerjee wrote in a message to Arindam Banerjee:
>
> AB> From: "Arindam Banerjee" <adda...@bigpond.com>
>
> AB> century.
> > >
> > > Don't forget the Jedi Knights.
> >
> > Wonderful Christians!
> >
> > > I'm not sure whose side they are on, though.
> >
> > They seem Catholic.
>
> AB> I should have added "Jesuits".
>
> Jesuits fight with laser swords?
Their leader, Father Tucker S.J., the Principal of our school, beat me
with a cane for my failings.
He then went to Bhutan to be the private tutor of the King. We were
all keen to know if His Majesty also got caned, or not.
Then we had Father George for our Principal, and he stopped the
canings.
Arindam Banerjee
> They are the third side of the sandwich, squeezing Christianity between
Jedi
> Knights, Islam and Witchcraft.
But Catholics are Christians, aren't they?
Don Tuite
have written:
>
>Silly me. I thought ichthus is "fish" which has its own significance
>in Christianity.
Yeah, for those of us who grew up as mackerel-snappers. It just
wasn't the same after Vat2.
Don
Robert Vienneau
Rowling never has explained what rules limit magic, what powers it
serves, or some balance and equilibrium that makes the most
mundane use of magic dangerous. Rather, for her, magical devices
seem to me, more like tools on the bat belt, to be made up as
needed by a twist of the plot. This lack of restriction works
better in a movie, I think.
Much of the story is about not so much whiz-bang-boom blowing-
things-up, but the longing of an orphan for his parents and his
wonder at discovering a wider world than he could ever have
imagined. We also see Ron and Hermione and the other first-years
encountering wonders they have heard about. Besides finding he's
important to this new world, as opposed to being a non-entity
in the more prosaic mundane muggle world, he discovers there's
evil in this larger world.
But I don't find this back story to have the depth of Middle Earth,
say. I think this back story is more right for a movie than a
book. I didn't think the first Harry Potter book made it as
children's literature that an adult could enjoy. And the
ending is too Scooby Doo-ish, I think. This is less unsatisfactory
as a movie.
I might change my opinion with later books in the series. Rowling
evidently intends to expand the world the characters are aware of
as the characters grow up.
I think Rowling's idea of her characters treating magical
devices as something to be sold with madison avenue commerciality
new to the fantasy genre. I think, for example, of wizard
trading cards.
--
Try http://csf.colorado.edu/pkt/pktauthors/Vienneau.Robert/Bukharin.html
r c .../Keynes.html
v s a Whether strength of body or of mind, or wisdom, or
i m p virtue, are found in proportion to the power or wealth
e a e of a man is a question fit perhaps to be discussed by
n e . slaves in the hearing of their masters, but highly
@ r c m unbecoming to reasonable and free men in search of
d o the truth. -- Rousseau
mike stone
>
>> You think "Xmas" is a religious holiday ?
Of course it is. I can't think of any time at which Mammon is worshipped more
devoutly
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough England
Last words of King Edward II.
"I always said that Roger Mortimer was a pain in the - - - AAARGHH!!!"
P Settli
"E. coli" <e_c...@pacbell.net> wrote
> CH as in CHristos, "the annointed". (Note the similarity to the
spelling of
> Crisco. I wonder if JC ever annointed himself with Crisco like
the AG.)
And if so, was he a habitue of the Baths?
--PS
tejas
"Crowfoot" <suz...@swcp.com> wrote in message
news:9tkrsm$mb$6...@sloth.swcp.com...
> In article <9thdnj$kt6$3...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net>, "tejas"
> <tbsa...@infi.net> wrote:
>
> > I was at the microbrewery today, getting a couple of liters of porter
for
> > tomorrow and one of the beer truck drivers for the micro mentioned
> > that he was listening to some talk radio and someone claiming to be
> > a Presbyterian called in , saying that Presbyterians were against HARRY
> > POTTER since Hogwarts implied a love of pork and that Presbyterians
> > couldn't eat pork, but they could eat bacon, since there was no blood in
> > bacon.
> >
> > He said he that he was no theologian, but a mere beer truck driver and
> > even he could tell there was something very wrong here...
>
> Sight. With his head, yes. Why is the world so stuffed-to-busting
> with certifiable lunatics, every one of them talking a mile a minute
> on the media?
You ask why and you are on USENET? Are you naive or just young?
--
Ted Samsel
tbsa...@infi.net
http://home.infi.net/~tbsamsel
Joan Marie Shields
Someone wrote:
>> They are the third side of the sandwich, squeezing Christianity between
>Jedi
>> Knights, Islam and Witchcraft.
Arindam Banerjee <ad...@interphase.aust.com> wrote:
>But Catholics are Christians, aren't they?
It depends on who you're talking to...
In other words, some Prodestants might disagree with this - something to
do with the worship of idols.
yiwf,
joan
--
Joan Shields jshi...@uci.edu http://www.ags.uci.edu/~jshields
University of California - Irvine School of Social Ecology
Department of Environmental Analysis and Design
I do not purchase services or products from unsolicited e-mail advertisements.
Arindam Banerjee
> Someone wrote:
> >> They are the third side of the sandwich, squeezing Christianity between
> Jedi
> >> Knights, Islam and Witchcraft.
>
> Arindam Banerjee <ad...@interphase.aust.com> wrote:
> >But Catholics are Christians, aren't they?
>
> It depends on who you're talking to...
> In other words, some Prodestants might disagree with this - something to
> do with the worship of idols.
What is that? Catholics are the original Christians, as far as my knowledge
goes. Martin Luther and Henry 8 were Catholic Christians before they turned
Protestant.
> yiwf,
>
> joan
Jean Clarke
lately?
Just a Jeanie
Michael S. Morris
Monday, the 26th of November, 2001
If I've understood the attributions (the indentations)
correctly, Arindam asked:
But Catholics are Christians, aren't they?
Joan said:
It depends on who you're talking to...
In other words, some Prodestants might
disagree with this - something to
do with the worship of idols.
Arindam:
What is that? Catholics are the original
Christians, as far as my knowledge goes.
Martin Luther and Henry 8 were Catholic
Christians before they turned Protestant.
Sure, but I think Joan has it right---that with certain
Protestants, the Christianity of Catholics is highly
suspect. When we moved to Martinsville three years ago,
Martha and I were looking for an "inclusive" homeschooling
group to join, having been a part of such up in Indianapolis.
We were directed to one that was advertised as such.
Martha and the kids went to a meeting. Martha told the
woman in charge that we were atheist and asked would that be
a problem? The woman confided that she herself was a
fundamentalist Christian, but that, no, there wasn't a
problem with Martha being atheist---in fact, several of
the member families in the group were even *Catholics*!
"Inclusivity" in this case meant that there was no
affirmation of faith or oath to sign, as there in fact is
in many fundie homeschooling groups. Though, there were
some rather involved rules about parents being responsible
for disciplining children present at group meetings and
an elaborate "biblical" procedure to follow should there
occur a dispute between adults over whether the children
either were or weren't continuing to act up and whether they
had been disciplined sufficiently.
I ran afoul of this woman by resorting to my usual mode
of arguing---she was one of those who would cc to everyone
on her list *any* email that would interest her. So, alongside
the usual assortment of penis-enlargement, get-rich-quick,
miracle-diet, barely-legal-naked-girls, and
you-have-won-free-travel spam, she would send around fundie
stuff that would have nothing whatsoever to do with
homeschooling. Well, I figured that anyone emailing
me their opinions about anything must, of a necessity,
have no objection to me emailing back an opposing opinion.
(Of course, I was wrong about that---just as in r.a.b,
people really prefer to have their opinions left unopposed.)
The first time I wrote her back, she had sent a creationist
"joke" about arrogant scientists announcing
they had created life out of dirt and could thus dispense with
God for the future, and God retorted "ha ha ha"
they had to do it His way and first create the dirt.
I wrote her back, saying that the punchline of the
joke was flat, since scientists were far less baffled by
the creation of dirt than by abiogenesis, and, besides,
this was an unfair and inaccurate picture of scientists,
since I knew plenty of scientists who reacted just the
opposite of "now we have gotten rid of God" when they
come to perceive the beauty of the Laws of Nature acting
behind things. Of course, this embroiled me in an extensive
argument by email with her husband, in which we got on to
him defending "the literal Bible" and its moral guidance---
such as its prohibition of homosexuality, and me arguing
in detail against there being any such thing.
That flare-up sort of cooled down to an agree-to-disagree
standoff, but then she sent around an "action alert" for
a letter-writing campaign to support some company's TV
commercial because it had portrayed fetuses in a positive
light. Apparently, the commercial showed a young man at
lunch with an older man, and the younger man hands over
an ultrasound image and announces "Meet your grandson!"
The "action alert" said that the pro-abortionists
were out to quash this commercial because they were opposed
to any positive portrayal of fetuses as human beings. I
wrote a response in which I said this was ridiculous---that
we who are in favour of legal abortion are not opposed
to positive images of fetuses. Anyway, she shook the dust
of me from her feet at that point. Apparently it was OK
for her to email me opinions, but not OK for me to respond
to them with contrary opinions.
Mike Morris
(msmo...@netdirect.net)
Joan Marie Shields
>> >> They are the third side of the sandwich, squeezing Christianity between
>> Jedi
>> >> Knights, Islam and Witchcraft.
Arindam Banerjee <ad...@interphase.aust.com> wrote:
>> >But Catholics are Christians, aren't they?
jshi...@taurus.oac.uci.edu (Joan Shields) wrote:
>> It depends on who you're talking to...
>> In other words, some Prodestants might disagree with this - something to
>> do with the worship of idols.
A Banerjee:
>What is that? Catholics are the original Christians, as far as my knowledge
>goes. Martin Luther and Henry 8 were Catholic Christians before they turned
>Protestant.
I was being a bit flippant in what I said above - however, it might be a
good idea for you to read up on the reformation and post-reformation
attitudes towards Catholics (aka: Papists) in Prodestant countries. The
works of Martin Luther might be a good place to start.
Francis Muir
"Michael S. Morris" wrote:
>
> Monday, the 26th of November, 2001
>
> If I've understood the attributions (the indentations)
> correctly, Arindam asked:
> But Catholics are Christians, aren't they?
> Joan said:
> It depends on who you're talking to...
> In other words, some Prodestants might
> disagree with this - something to
> do with the worship of idols.
> Arindam:
> What is that? Catholics are the original
> Christians, as far as my knowledge goes.
> Martin Luther and Henry 8 were Catholic
> Christians before they turned Protestant.
>
> Sure, but I think Joan has it right---that with certain
> Protestants, the Christianity of Catholics is highly
> suspect.
Codswallop. The Christianity of Catholicism does not "depend on who
you're talking to". General classifications cannot be held ransom by the
whimsy of the few.
E. coli
I take you're willing to give homeschooling the effort it takes,
because of its advantages for your kids, despite its association with
people who have unearthed paleontological evidence of hominids running from
dinosaurs. ("Attempted rapture by raptor," my ex wisecracked, she the
quintessential princess from L.A., when we were visited by "helpful" fundies
in Big D, years ago. If they picked up on her joke, they didn't show it.)
You also must see advantages to living in Martinsville. My hazy understanding
of Indiana is that the state splits north-south at Indianapolis. South of
there, you might as well be in Kentucky, and north of there, you're in Chicago.
My question is: what are those advantages? I ain't too impressed with what
I've seen of Kentucky. Prettiest place I've seen in Indiana was a covered
bridge near Fort Wayne that I chanced upon when driving around while
visiting clients. Fort Wayne is north of the Line.
jimC
E. coli
> Codswallop. The Christianity of Catholicism does not "depend on who
> you're talking to". General classifications cannot be held ransom by the
> whimsy of the few.
Except those ordained to make whimsical pronouncements. If the pope
says it's a fish, then I say roll out the tartar sauce and eat up.
ObPlay: Bertolt Brecht, "Das Leben des Galileo"
E. coli
Bruce McGuffin
> FamilyNet Newsgate
>
> Bruce McGuffin wrote in a message to All:
>
> BM> I take the notion by some religios folks that Harry Potter is about
> BM> real witchcraft, and so is in competition with christianity as
> BM> evidence that my young children are smarter than some religious
> BM> leaders.
>
> Bill Tuthill is a religious leader?
What? You think Bill thought that up all by himself?
Bruce McGuffin
Bruce McGuffin
Bruce McGuffin
> "John S. Watson" wrote:
>
> > Paul Ilechko <pile...@att.net> wrote in message news:<3BFE6574...@att.net>...
> > > "John S. Watson" wrote:
> > >
> > > > Since in the Harry Potter books,
> > > > everyone in the Hogworts school celebrates Xmas
> > > > (except perhaps the bad guy), aren't they all Christians?'
> > > >
> > >
> > > You think "Xmas" is a religious holiday ?
> >
> > It depends whether or not you define Christians as "religious".
> >
>
> You think only Christians celebrate "Xmas" ? The whole point of the "X" is to remove the
> "Christ",
that's not an x (ex), its a x (chi).
Bruce McGuffin
Don Tuite
wrote:
Better examples might include Athanasius and the kindly Welshman whose
name is a cognate of Muir. Historically, Catholics have been eager to
deny the mantle of Christianity to heretics.
Opinions, now. is the LDS church "Christian"? What about Unitarians?
Witnesses?
Don
Stephen Hayes
Lewis Mammel wrote in a message to All:
> > The "X" is chi, for Christ,
>
> Whoops, should have read ahead. That's what I was trying to say. Wasn't
> chi on the cross?
>
LM> That would be INRI, the Latin initials of Jesus of Nazareth King of
LM> the Jews. Looking this up, I find that scripture has it spelled
LM> out. The initials seem to have arisen as a tradition in
LM> representative art.
And in Greek INBI
Stephen Hayes
Michael L. Siemon wrote in a message to All:
MLS> From: "Michael L. Siemon" <m...@panix.com>
MLS> In article <241120012128161792%del...@mindspring.com>, Diane L.
MLS> Schirf <del...@mindspring.com> wrote:
MLS> + In article <3C005830...@worldnet.att.net>, Lewis Mammel +
MLS> <l.ma...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
MLS> +
+ > > Whoops, should have read ahead. That's what I was trying to say. Wasn't
+ > > chi on the cross?
+ > >
+ >
+ > That would be INRI, the Latin initials of Jesus of Nazareth King of the
+ > Jews.
+ > Looking this up, I find that scripture has it spelled out. The initials
+ > seem to have arisen as a tradition in representative art.
MLS> +
MLS> + Well, of course, since it was a Roman court and Roman soldiers.
MLS> ::: + thwacks self :::
MLS> +
MLS> + Okay, I'm pretty sure chi is used in medieval illustrations and
MLS> the + book of Kells. Pretty sure.
MLS> The "chi-rho" is a standard symbol of Christian iconography, of
MLS> roughly equal age to INRI or the "ichthys" acronym. To ordinary
MLS> American church- goers, it looks like a conflation of an X and P.
MLS> It is quite common even in Protestant churches where it is,
MLS> effectively, Greek to congregants.
MLS> Note that Roman "courts" (insofar as applicable here) and soldiers
MLS> have little or nothing to do with the Greek of the gospels or
MLS> other Christian writings of the first century of the new religion.
MLS> The emergence of a Latin Christianity is a somewhat later
MLS> phenomenon, conditioned on the importance of the city of Rome and
MLS> its multi-ethnic and multi-religious populace.
Yet in this case the reference was to a Roman court, presided over by Pontius
Pilate, who is said to have put a trilingual notice on the cross on which Jesus
was crucified.
The record of that act has been preserved by Christians, presumably because
they appreciated the irony.
For Pilate, the notice "This is the king of the Jews" was doubtless intended to
convey a political message roughly equivalent to George Bush's bombing of
Afghanistan -- "And anyone else who tries to pull a similar stunt will get the
same treatment".
The Christians (who at that stage were mostly Jews) really did believe that
Jesus was the king of the Jews, and so preserved it in the belief that Pilates
notice was truer than he knew. Other Jews, however, didn't accept this, and
within a few decades they had split. But Pilate's act was preserved for
posterity, and still is in the INRI/INBI.
Stephen Hayes
Arindam Banerjee wrote in a message to Arindam Banerjee:
AB> From: "Arindam Banerjee" <adda...@bigpond.com>
>
> They are the third side of the sandwich, squeezing Christianity between
AB> Jedi
> Knights, Islam and Witchcraft.
AB> But Catholics are Christians, aren't they?
But I'm still not convinced by your argument that Jedi Knights are Catholic.
There was a move to get enough people to write it in in their census forms so
that they could be counted as a separate religion - I don't know how many did,
though.
Stephen Hayes
Diane L. Schirf wrote in a message to All:
DLS> From: "Diane L. Schirf" <del...@mindspring.com>
DLS> In article <241120012236321892%m...@panix.com>, Michael L. Siemon
DLS> <m...@panix.com> wrote:
> Note that Roman "courts" (insofar as applicable here) and soldiers have
> little or nothing to do with the Greek of the gospels or other Christian
> writings of the first century of the new religion.
DLS> Yes, but my point was, Romans wouldn't have helpfully put Greek
DLS> letters on the cross. <g>
According to the records kept by Christians, they did.
Greek, not Latin, was the lingua franca of most of the Eastern Roman Empire
(thanks to the conquests of Alexander the Great a few centuries earlier), and
was the language of the early Christians in most places.
The Romans put up a trilingual notice (Hebrew, Greek and Latin).
Stephen Hayes
Arindam Banerjee wrote in a message to All:
AB> From: adda...@bigpond.com (Arindam Banerjee)
AB> jshi...@taurus.oac.uci.edu (Joan Marie Shields) wrote in message
AB> news:<9trme0$s84$1...@news.service.uci.edu>...
> Someone wrote:
> >> They are the third side of the sandwich, squeezing Christianity between
> Jedi
> >> Knights, Islam and Witchcraft.
>
> Arindam Banerjee <ad...@interphase.aust.com> wrote:
> >But Catholics are Christians, aren't they?
>
> It depends on who you're talking to...
> In other words, some Prodestants might disagree with this - something to
> do with the worship of idols.
AB> What is that? Catholics are the original Christians, as far as my
AB> knowledge goes. Martin Luther and Henry 8 were Catholic Christians
AB> before they turned Protestant.
Yup, but neither of them were Jedi Knights.
Arindam Banerjee
> good idea for you to read up on the reformation and post-reformation
> attitudes towards Catholics (aka: Papists) in Prodestant countries.
And why should that be a good idea for me, what am I expected to get out
of it?
Arindam Banerjee
> Monday, the 26th of November, 2001
>
> If I've understood the attributions (the indentations)
> correctly, Arindam asked:
> But Catholics are Christians, aren't they?
> Joan said:
> It depends on who you're talking to...
> In other words, some Prodestants might
> disagree with this - something to
> do with the worship of idols.
> Arindam:
> What is that? Catholics are the original
> Christians, as far as my knowledge goes.
> Martin Luther and Henry 8 were Catholic
> Christians before they turned Protestant.
>
> Sure, but I think Joan has it right---that with certain
> Protestants, the Christianity of Catholics is highly
> suspect.
Do the opinions of "certain Protestants" make Catholics non-Christian
to a neutral like myself? No.
- snip -
Joan Marie Shields
Joan Shields (jshi...@uci.edu) wrote:
>> I was being a bit flippant in what I said above - however, it might be a
>> good idea for you to read up on the reformation and post-reformation
>> attitudes towards Catholics (aka: Papists) in Prodestant countries.
Arindam Banerjee <adda...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>And why should that be a good idea for me, what am I expected to get out
>of it?
Well, how about some of the basic differences between Catholisism and
Prodestantism? The idea of asking saints or the Virgin Mary to interceed
with God was viewed (may still be viewed) as idol worship which is a
fairly big no-no in Christianity. There are a variety of other theological
differences which, to those involved, were (are) very important.
Keep the history in mind as well - there were quite serious attacks on
anyone practicing Catholisism in Prodestant England.
> The
>> works of Martin Luther might be a good place to start.
yiwf,
joan
Bill Tuthill
>
> Are you, by any chance, a Canadian?
No but I'd like to become one. How much money do I need
to bribe Ottawa into accepting me as such?
Last time you asked this question, you asked Don Phillipson
"Are you Canadian by any chance?"
I'm trying to fathom the relevance of your extra commas,
and determine why you say "Codswallup" more than Hagrid.
Arindam Banerjee
> FamilyNet Newsgate
>
> Arindam Banerjee wrote in a message to All:
>
> AB> From: adda...@bigpond.com (Arindam Banerjee)
>
> AB> jshi...@taurus.oac.uci.edu (Joan Marie Shields) wrote in message
> AB> news:<9trme0$s84$1...@news.service.uci.edu>...
> > Someone wrote:
> > >> They are the third side of the sandwich, squeezing Christianity between
> Jedi
> > >> Knights, Islam and Witchcraft.
> >
> > Arindam Banerjee <ad...@interphase.aust.com> wrote:
> > >But Catholics are Christians, aren't they?
> >
> > It depends on who you're talking to...
> > In other words, some Prodestants might disagree with this - something to
> > do with the worship of idols.
>
> AB> What is that? Catholics are the original Christians, as far as my
> AB> knowledge goes. Martin Luther and Henry 8 were Catholic Christians
> AB> before they turned Protestant.
>
> Yup, but neither of them were Jedi Knights.
Nor anyone within a billion galaxies and a trillion years, to our existent
scientific knowledge.
Bill Tuthill
>
> Since in the Harry Potter books,
> everyone in the Hogworts school celebrates Xmas
Presumably Parvati Patil and her sister Padma are Hindoos.
(Too bad Padma isn't her "progeny" for extra alliteration points.)
Hope you haven't overlooked Rowling's multiculturalism message.
The idea of muggle-born wizard (Hermione, Harry's mom) is related.
Arindam Banerjee
> Joan Shields (jshi...@uci.edu) wrote:
> >> I was being a bit flippant in what I said above - however, it might be a
> >> good idea for you to read up on the reformation and post-reformation
> >> attitudes towards Catholics (aka: Papists) in Prodestant countries.
>
> Arindam Banerjee <adda...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> >And why should that be a good idea for me, what am I expected to get out
> >of it?
>
> Well, how about some of the basic differences between Catholisism and
> Prodestantism?
All I can see is that the Catholic churches have better decorations, than
the Protestant churches. Also, Protestant priests can marry. Then the
Catholics do not start World Wars, nor seek to dominate the world militarily.
Protestants are pretty well organised, disciplined and have high technology,
as opposed to non-European Catholics.
The idea of asking saints or the Virgin Mary to interceed
> with God was viewed (may still be viewed) as idol worship which is a
> fairly big no-no in Christianity.
Why is that idol worship? What is idol worship anyway? Was it a good
reason for Christians to hate and kill each other with great ferocity?
There are a variety of other theological
> differences which, to those involved, were (are) very important.
>
> Keep the history in mind as well - there were quite serious attacks on
> anyone practicing Catholisism in Prodestant England.
Since I am not a Christian, and I am living in Australia in 2001, that is
quite irrelevant to me.
Lewis Mammel
"E. coli" wrote:
>
> You also must see advantages to living in Martinsville. My hazy understanding
> of Indiana is that the state splits north-south at Indianapolis. South of
> there, you might as well be in Kentucky, and north of there, you're in Chicago.
I think that line goes through Valparaiso.
> My question is: what are those advantages? I ain't too impressed with what
> I've seen of Kentucky. Prettiest place I've seen in Indiana was a covered
> bridge near Fort Wayne that I chanced upon when driving around while
> visiting clients. Fort Wayne is north of the Line.
The drive from Louisville to Lexington, then up to London, is
very scenic. That's rarefied air up there on the Cumberland plateau.
Lew Mammel, Jr.
Lewis Mammel
Stephen Hayes wrote:
> For Pilate, the notice "This is the king of the Jews" was doubtless intended to
> convey a political message roughly equivalent to George Bush's bombing of
> Afghanistan -- "And anyone else who tries to pull a similar stunt will get the
> same treatment".
Yes, well naturally Pilate was upset after the 12 Apostles hijacked
four jetliners and crashed them into Rome and Alexandria.
> keep well
To every thing there is a season.
Lew Mammel, Jr.
Michael S. Morris
Monday, the 26th of November, 2001
I said:
Sure, but I think Joan has it right---that with certain
Protestants, the Christianity of Catholics is highly
suspect.
Francis:
Codswallop. The Christianity of Catholicism does
not "depend on who you're talking to". General
classifications cannot be held ransom by the
whimsy of the few.
Codswallop yourself. I am reporting here on a cultural
phenomenon that I have observed: There exist fundie
Protestants who consider Catholics to be not really
Christian. Now, nowhere have I (or Joan for that matter)
indicated agreement with that position. I have no sympathy
whatsoever with it. But *it does exist*.
And the "general classification" nonsense is just
nonsense, or codswallop if you prefer. It is obvious
that *defining* what Christianity is and is not is
*highly dependent* on who does the defining. If you
ask a liberal Protestant or a liberal Catholic today,
you'll get one kind of answer. If you ask Bertrand Russell,
you'll get another. If you query C.S. Lewis, you'll
get a third, and if you ask these particular Protestants
whereof I speak, you'll get a fourth. And none of them will
agree with Merriam-Webster, or even the OED. If ever a
category were not amenable to "general classification",
this one is it.
Mike Morris
(msmo...@netdirect.net)
Michael S. Morris
Monday, the 26th of November,
2001
Arindam wrote:
Do the opinions of "certain Protestants"
make Catholics non-Christian
to a neutral like myself? No.
Hey, she told you that some Protestants consider
Catholics non-Christians. You responded wondering how they
could do so silly a thing. I merely corroborated that, yes,
the prejudice exists. I agree with you that it is
a perfectly silly prejudice.
If you want to know, the key is the evangelical
theology---to them, you must be "born again" in the
belief that Jesus Christ is your personal saviour in
order to be Christian. Ergo, it is a mainstay
of their belief that many people who attend church the
whole of their lives are *not* really Christian. Joan
mentioned idolatry as a particularly suspect aspect of
Catholicism to these people. But also I think it is
Catholicism's different emphasis on a living day-to-day
works-based confessional faith that they have problems
with. In any event the fundies certainly exclude
many, many people whom you and I, Arindam, would
of course call Christian from *their* notion of
Christianity.
Mike Morris
(msmo...@netdirect.net)
Michael S. Morris
Monday, the 26th of November, 2001
Jim Collier, or some facsimile (I never can tell which)
writes:
I take you're willing to give homeschooling the
effort it takes, because of its advantages for
your kids,
Yes. And it is not only my kids, but my family
"lifestyle" that is wonderfully different because
of it.
Jim:
despite its association with
people who have unearthed paleontological
evidence of hominids running from dinosaurs. [...]
That particular association seems rather dated by now,
given the large number of non-fundie homeschoolers who
have swelled the movement in the last decade or so.
Jim:
You also must see advantages to living in Martinsville.
A five bedroom, 4-story house on 27 wooded and ravined acres with
horses and riding trails and a pond in back stocked with
bass, bluegill, and catfish for less than you could buy
a "fixer-upper" in a bad neighbourhood in Pasadena.
Jim:
My hazy understanding of Indiana is that the state
splits north-south at Indianapolis. South of
there, you might as well be in Kentucky, and north
of there, you're in Chicago.
Martinsville is termed "Martucky" by those in the
know. Our postal address is Martinsville, though we
are five miles in the hills to the northwest of M-ville.
That puts us about 35 miles from the center of Indianapolis,
or the best part of an hour to drive to anything (like my
business, my teaching, choir, ballet lessons, any cultural
entertainments).
Jim:
My question is: what are those advantages?
I ain't too impressed with what I've seen of
Kentucky. Prettiest place I've seen in Indiana
was a covered bridge near Fort Wayne that I chanced
upon when driving around while visiting clients.
Fort Wayne is north of the Line.
But, north of the line ain't pretty. North of the line
is flat. Much of it is flat like the cornfield scene in "North
by Northwest". Martinsville is where the pretty part
starts. It's the edge of where the Wisconsin Glacier didn't
get some 14,000 years ago. The flat part was all scrubbed
flat by the glacier. So, if you want a house with terrain
around it other than a lot surveyed out of a cornfield
(and I always have wanted it), then you must go a little
south of Indy.
Mike Morris
(msmo...@netdirect.net)
Joan Marie Shields
>> >> I was being a bit flippant in what I said above - however, it might be a
>> >> good idea for you to read up on the reformation and post-reformation
>> >> attitudes towards Catholics (aka: Papists) in Prodestant countries.
Arindam Banerjee <adda...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> >And why should that be a good idea for me, what am I expected to get out
>> >of it?
Joan:
>> Well, how about some of the basic differences between Catholisism and
>> Prodestantism? The idea of asking saints or the Virgin Mary to interceed
>> with God was viewed (may still be viewed) as idol worship which is a
>> fairly big no-no in Christianity. There are a variety of other theological
>> differences which, to those involved, were (are) very important.
Janice Miller <jbmi...@world.std.com> wrote:
>Is there a reason you're consistently misspelling the names of those
>religions, or are you just trying to be deliberately offensive?
I spelled them incorrectly because I am not a particularly good speller.
I thought they were spelled correctly, apparently I should have checked
the dictionary (as I often do). I apologize.
>I have
>never read anyone who considered images, saints, or intercession to be
>constitutive of the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism per
>se, and I wonder whether you are even trying to be accurate.
I am being very accurate. You would understand if you knew anything
about the history of Protestantism. Have you ever heard of Martin Luther?
>Maybe you've never heard of Jesuits and think it's a misspelling of
>"Christians"? You've always shown yourself to be _a little_ more
>intelligent than Moggin, so I'm unsure.
Yes, I have heard of Jesuits and no, even I don't spell THAT baddly.
BTW, I grew up Catholic though I can't say I'm much of one now. Actually,
in neither of my posts did I make any disparaging comments about Protestantism
or Catholicism. All I did was bring up a bit of history and comment (rather
flippantly) on the attitudes of some I've run into.
Perhaps, instead of chastising me about my errors in spelling (and leaping
to a bizarre conclusion) you might be better off reading some Martin Luther
or even Erasmus!
ObBook: Websters Illustrated Contemporary Dictionary
Joan Marie Shields
>> >> I was being a bit flippant in what I said above - however, it might be a
>> >> good idea for you to read up on the reformation and post-reformation
>> >> attitudes towards Catholics (aka: Papists) in Prodestant countries.
Arindam Banerjee <adda...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>> >And why should that be a good idea for me, what am I expected to get out
>> >of it?
Joan:
>> Well, how about some of the basic differences between Catholisism and
>> Prodestantism?
A Banerjee:
>All I can see is that the Catholic churches have better decorations, than
>the Protestant churches. Also, Protestant priests can marry. Then the
>Catholics do not start World Wars, nor seek to dominate the world militarily.
>Protestants are pretty well organised, disciplined and have high technology,
>as opposed to non-European Catholics.
Actually, Catholic priest used to be able to marry - up until a few hundred
years ago. Not to mention a number of Crusades, and a few other wars. The
Knights Templer and the Hospitalers were both miltary religious orders
answerable only to the Pope.
> The idea of asking saints or the Virgin Mary to interceed
>> with God was viewed (may still be viewed) as idol worship which is a
>> fairly big no-no in Christianity.
>Why is that idol worship? What is idol worship anyway? Was it a good
>reason for Christians to hate and kill each other with great ferocity?
For some it was. I never said I thought it was a great idea - but it's
history.
>There are a variety of other theological
>> differences which, to those involved, were (are) very important.
>> Keep the history in mind as well - there were quite serious attacks on
>> anyone practicing Catholisism in Prodestant England.
>Since I am not a Christian, and I am living in Australia in 2001, that is
>quite irrelevant to me.
History is never irrelevant to the present.
Moggin Goldberg
> Catholics are the original Christians, as far as my
> knowledge goes.
The original Christians were Jews. Mister Christ included.
-- Moggin
Steve Hayes
And the bad guys are racists who speak of "mudbloods".
--
Steve Hayes
E-mail: haye...@yahoo.com
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/litmain.htm
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>
>
>Stephen Hayes wrote:
>
>
>> For Pilate, the notice "This is the king of the Jews" was doubtless intended to
>> convey a political message roughly equivalent to George Bush's bombing of
>> Afghanistan -- "And anyone else who tries to pull a similar stunt will get the
>> same treatment".
>
>Yes, well naturally Pilate was upset after the 12 Apostles hijacked
>four jetliners and crashed them into Rome and Alexandria.
They were all set to blow up a couple of Romulus troop carriers though.
Jorn Barger
> The original Christians were Jews. Mister Christ included.
http://www.thenewrepublic.com/101501/fredriksen101501_print.html
--
Robot Wisdom Weblog: http://www.robotwisdom.com/ "If you worry that
reading the news online will rob you of the serendipity factor you get
with the newspaper, Jorn Barger solves the problem." --Dan Gillmor
Richard Harter
Not Mr. Christ - he was adopted.
Michael S. Morris
Tuesday, the 27th of November, 2001
Janice Miller wrote:
If you're in the position you represent
yourself as being in and you've never heard
of such kinds of misrepresentation, you are
probably as lucky as you would have to be to
have grown up Catholic and not know that "papist"
is an insult, much less that most people find the
characterization of the fundamentalist Christian
attitude towards Catholicism as believing that
correct words for the latter are "non-Christian"
and "idolatry" as to say the least very, very odd.
Janice, this is bizarre. I don't see that you
have any ground to stand on accusing Joan of
not knowing that "papist" is an insult. Or that
"Catholics are non-Christian" is an insult. I mean, I
just don't get it---Joan was not agreeing with
fundies who insult Catholics or who consider Catholics
to be non-Christian. She just asserted that there
are such. And, there are. You know, in any metropolitan
area there will be several radio stations
with programming filled up with fundie preachers. If
you spend about one week listening to those guys
(this can be hugely entertaining if you do it in
the right mood, by the way), you'll know that Joan
is right.
Personally, my mother was Catholic and my father
Disciples of Christ. DoC strikes me at present as
a very "liberal" branch of Protestantism (measured
on social issues)---nearly Episcopal. But, in
my mother's words, when they were married back in
the 1950's, my father's original idea of Catholics
was along the line that Catholics eat babies for
breakfast. I assume he outgrew that notion.
Mike Morris
(msmo...@netdirect.net)
mike stone
>You don't think Pilate was right to be upset? Not that Pilate was a
>nice guy or anything, but his response to Jesus may have been at least
>as reasonable as Bush's response to bin Laden.
>
>Possibly already in Jesus' time, but definitely by the 40's, there
>were prophets and messiahs in league with the terrorists. If this
>phenomenon already existed in Jesus' time, then it would have been
>reasonable for Pilate, in his fight against terrorism, to play it safe
>rather than take a chance that Jesus might be an exception. After
>all, messiahs were a greater threat to the Roman Empire than bin Laden
>is to the American Empire. As Steve said above, the "King of the Jews"
>inscription on the cross would have been seen as a clear message to
>other wannabee messiahs.
Mind you, any religious movement worth its salt will survive a martyrdom or
two.
Incidentally, what "terrorists" do you have in mind? If you are thinking of the
Zealots, all they wanted was the Romans out of Judea, and they were more akin
to the French Resistance of WW2 than to the Bin Liner. "Terrorism" is in the
eye of the beholder
--
Mike Stone - Peterborough England
Last words of King Edward II.
"I always said that Roger Mortimer was a pain in the - - - AAARGHH!!!"
Joan Marie Shields
Joan Shields (jshi...@uci.edu) wrote:
>>>> Well, how about some of the basic differences between Catholisism and
>>>> Prodestantism? The idea of asking saints or the Virgin Mary to interceed
>>>> with God was viewed (may still be viewed) as idol worship which is a
>>>> fairly big no-no in Christianity. There are a variety of other theological
>>>> differences which, to those involved, were (are) very important.
Janice Miller <jbmi...@world.std.com> wrote:
>> >Is there a reason you're consistently misspelling the names of those
>> >religions, or are you just trying to be deliberately offensive?
Joan:
>> I spelled them incorrectly because I am not a particularly good speller.
>> I thought they were spelled correctly, apparently I should have checked
>> the dictionary (as I often do). I apologize.
Janice Miller:
>Yes, I have never seen you make even one spelling error in all the months
>I've been reading and responding to your posts here, which made those
>stand out.
Hmmm - you've been reading my posts for a few months and you've never
seen me make a spelling error (btw, there was only one letter wrong in
each of those words) therefore, when I make a spelling error in a post
it is deliberate. Sorry, ask anyone who has been reading my posts for
years - they'll tell you that my spelling is sometimes, well, creative.
Janice Miller:
>> >I have
>> >never read anyone who considered images, saints, or intercession to be
>> >constitutive of the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism per
>> >se, and I wonder whether you are even trying to be accurate.
Joan:
>> I am being very accurate. You would understand if you knew anything
>> about the history of Protestantism. Have you ever heard of Martin Luther?
Janice Miller:
>I disagree as to your accuracy but don't argue with people who can only
>deal with somene who disagrees with them by turning condescending and
>recommending elementary books on the subject.
Sorry, when it comes to being condescending, you have me beat hands down.
I also have to wonder at a person who refers to the works of Martin Luther
as 'elementary'. Could you, perhaps, recommend more advanced writings on
the Reformation or Protestantism?
[snip]
Janice Miller:
>I won't "pull a Joan" and turn condescending by asking you to prove to my
>satisfaction that you know what a Jesuit is.
I'm begining to think you might have me confused with someone else.
Joan:
>>BTW, I grew up Catholic though I can't say I'm much of one now. Actually,
>>in neither of my posts did I make any disparaging comments about
>>Protestantism or Catholicism. All I did was bring up a bit of history and
>>comment (rather flippantly) on the attitudes of some I've run into.
>Papist is considered a little worse than "disparaging." Perhaps your
>background was so sheltered that you had never heard that particular
>insult.
Actually, I have heard of the term 'Papist' and am familar with its meaning.
BTW, what is your point here? I mean, if you are familar with the term
'Papist' then you would more than likely be familiar with anti-Catholic
sentiments from (some) Protestants.
>(I refrain from accusing you of lying about your background even though
>there are so many here who do that I don't think I'd be too out of line.
Actually, you would be very out of line since 1) you have no proof I am
lying (I did grow up Catholic, I have all the paperwork: baptism, 1st
Communion and Confirmation certificates) and 2) what you've pointed to,
I have no reason to lie about and finally, 3) it really doesn't matter
if you think I'm lying or not.
>If you're in the position you represent yourself as being in and you've
>never heard of such kinds of misrepresentation, you are probably as lucky
>as you would have to be to have grown up Catholic and not know that
>"papist" is an insult, much less that most people find the
>characterization of the fundamentalist Christian attitude towards
>Catholicism as believing that correct words for the latter are
>"non-Christian" and "idolatry" as to say the least very, very odd. Or, if
>one were attempting to be charitable, one might think you are attempting
>to caricature those who have attacked your own religion, rather than to
>describe them accurately. You save us from all that effort, though, by
>those spelling errors that conveniently destroy your credibility.)
Do you have any idea about what I posted? I posted that there are those
Protestants that consider Catholicism somewhat non-Christian. I noted that
one of the reasons given (granted, it was given a while ago) was that
Catholics pray to saints and to the Virgin Mary to interceed and that this
was often pointed to as practicing idoltry. There were other reasons and
I pointed to Martin Luther as a possible source of information since it
was his proclamation nailed to a church door that sparked, in good part,
the Reformation. At the very least it led to his being excommunicated.
Joan:
>> Perhaps, instead of chastising me about my errors in spelling (and leaping
>> to a bizarre conclusion) you might be better off reading some Martin Luther
>> or even Erasmus!
Janice:
>It's not your spelling I object to, but your sincerity. I have reason to
>believe that leaves something to be desired, as you certainly will recall.
As I will recall? You know, I vaguely remember arguing with you a few
months ago but, honestly, I can't remember the subject.
BTW, I wuold have spelt 'proclamation' wrong (proclimation) but I double-
checked it in the dictionary here and caught my error).
ObBook: Webster's Ninth New College Dictionary (the Illustrated one is at
home)
Joan Marie Shields
>JMS (an anthropology grad student and teacher) had posted, in a reply to
>Arindam Banerjee:
>> however, it might be a
>> good idea for you to read up on the reformation and post-reformation
>> attitudes towards Catholics (aka: Papists) in Prodestant countries.
1) I was using the term Papist as an example of anti-Catholic sentiments.
I'm sorry if that was not clear to you.
2) I am not studying anthropology - I am an Environmental Microbiologist.
(check my website listed in my .sig)
3) While I do teach, I don't consider myself a teacher at present and have
no desire to pursue that career.
Given these broad errors - is there any reason we should believe anything
you post?
Bruce McGuffin
> Is there a reason you're consistently misspelling the names of those
> religions, or are you just trying to be deliberately offensive? I have
> never read anyone who considered images, saints, or intercession to be
> constitutive of the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism per
> se, and I wonder whether you are even trying to be accurate.
I think a lot of protestants would consider the praying to saints and
statues thing to be an important difference. I've met a number who
consider catholics to be "idolators". Some were not from the lunatic
fringe.
Bruce McGuffin