Creating Dynamic Web Pages (ZOPE)
Hugh Cowan
I am not exactly sure where to post this question -- the only
reference that I could find for ZOPE in the Newsgroups is here. I
appologize if this is not the correct place.
I have the situation where I need to create a simple Intranet for my
company to display dynamic / data driven web-pages. We are running a
Windows NT network with MS-SQL Server and IIS.
I had originally thought of using ASP (Server Side Scripting) to
generate the dynamic web-pages. While I know how to create the
Intranet using ASP, I have yet to find any RAD type Web-Tools that
will allow me to quickly and easily generate the ASP pages required,
and I don't fancy using the Notepad approach either.
My scenario is typical where I need to put together a company Intranet
with a few front end Web-Pages where users can select information,
various links, and enter search criteria. The information is then
retrieved from the MS-SQL Server and the results are sent back to the
user. It's nothing fancy, no shopping carts, or remembering sessions
states, etc.. just really a simple front-end interface for
non-technical people to easily retrieve information.
I don't know if ZOPE would fit my situation or not. I know that it is
/ can be used to create complex E-commerce sites, but I am wondering
if it is overkill for what I need done. Would I be better off trying
to find some sort of RAD Web Tool instead (anyone have any good
suggestions) ?
Thanks so much,
Hugh
Michael Gilfix
On Thu, Jun 06 @ 21:16, Hugh Cowan wrote:
> I don't know if ZOPE would fit my situation or not. I know that it is
> / can be used to create complex E-commerce sites, but I am wondering
> if it is overkill for what I need done. Would I be better off trying
> to find some sort of RAD Web Tool instead (anyone have any good
> suggestions) ?
I think Zope is definitely the way to go as it is designed to
address exactly what you need and easily. Zope allows you to add
'drop-in' components to your web service (such as an SQL query,
or called a 'ZSQL query' in Zope-speak), which tends to be a big
time saver, and then reference that query to dynamically produce a
webpage. More so, it allows for easy remote management with delegation
of roles and authority to multiple parties; seems like a good way to
structure your intranet.
-- Mike
--
Michael Gilfix
mgi...@eecs.tufts.edu
For my gpg public key:
http://www.eecs.tufts.edu/~mgilfix/contact.html
Nicola Larosa
> reference that I could find for ZOPE in the Newsgroups is here. I
> appologize if this is not the correct place.
There are many mailing lists on the Zope site, ask on the main one for
further advice, and also search the ZopeDB archives for details on the best
way of interfacing with MS SqlServer, it was a recent discussion.
> I have the situation where I need to create a simple Intranet for my
> company to display dynamic / data driven web-pages. We are running a
> Windows NT network with MS-SQL Server and IIS.
Zope runs well on Windows, on its own or behind IIS.
> I had originally thought of using ASP (Server Side Scripting) to
> generate the dynamic web-pages. While I know how to create the
> Intranet using ASP, I have yet to find any RAD type Web-Tools that
> will allow me to quickly and easily generate the ASP pages required,
> and I don't fancy using the Notepad approach either.
You will have to do some editing, but while not exactly RAD, there are tools
that will help you, and you will end with a much more maintainable solution.
> My scenario is typical where I need to put together a company Intranet
> with a few front end Web-Pages where users can select information,
> various links, and enter search criteria. The information is then
> retrieved from the MS-SQL Server and the results are sent back to the
> user. It's nothing fancy, no shopping carts, or remembering sessions
> states, etc.. just really a simple front-end interface for
> non-technical people to easily retrieve information.
Use the ZDataQueryKit Product:
http://www.zope.org/Members/haqa/ZDataQueryKit
It contains a number of wizards that will help with SQL queries creation and
report generation.
> I don't know if ZOPE would fit my situation or not.
I think so, and nicely too.
> I know that it is / can be used to create complex E-commerce sites,
> but I am wondering if it is overkill for what I need done.
No, it's not. It contains lots of tools, but you will only use what you
need. The important thing is that the infrastructure is solid, and the
synchronization with external RDBMS transactions is outstanding. The
extensive authentication and authorization model has already been mentioned.
> Would I be better off trying to find some sort of RAD Web Tool
> instead (anyone have any good suggestions) ?
Nothing more RAD than Zope that I know of, in the open source world.
Only, just give a thorough look at the ZopeBook, you will get a much better
start:
http://www.zope.org/Documentation/ZopeBook/
And lastly, just jump over DTML and go straight to Page Templates. :^)
--
"Too much cleverness in the parser can turn against you."
Guido Van Rossum
Nicola Larosa - ni...@tekNico.net
Bill Tate
[snip]
> My scenario is typical where I need to put together a company Intranet
> with a few front end Web-Pages where users can select information,
> various links, and enter search criteria. The information is then
> retrieved from the MS-SQL Server and the results are sent back to the
> user. It's nothing fancy, no shopping carts, or remembering sessions
> states, etc.. just really a simple front-end interface for
> non-technical people to easily retrieve information.
>
> I don't know if ZOPE would fit my situation or not. I know that it is
> / can be used to create complex E-commerce sites, but I am wondering
> if it is overkill for what I need done. Would I be better off trying
> to find some sort of RAD Web Tool instead (anyone have any good
> suggestions) ?
I think its safe to say that there are any number of tools that could
fit the bill here including Zope. There are aspects of zope that can
make your life much easier (e.g., zsql methods) but it does take some
time to get used to it and everything it offers. Several recent books
on the subject I think would be very helpful to you in this regard.
If you go to zope.org, there is some information on using WYSIWYG
tools such as Dreamweaver with zope that may also be of interest to
you as well.
I think zope works bests for you over the long haul where it is
important to keep things well organized and well structured. The
ability to collaborate amongst individuals is also a great strength.
If these issues are important to you, then I would say that Zope would
be an excellent choice.
Good luck!!!
Hugh Cowan
I am not "barking" up the wrong tree. Now that I know I am headed in
the right direction I will do more reading and research and check-out
their web-site. I just didn't want to spend a lot of time up front
just to find out in the end that it wouldn't work for me.
Hugh,
Michael Gilfix <mgi...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message news:<mailman.102342439...@python.org>...
Hugh Cowan
Thanks for the reply and all the good information and links. As I
mentioned to Mike, I initially just want to make sure that I wasn't
completely wasting my time. I don't have a lot of time to research /
learn various tools and options before I need to start implementing a
solution and therefore I really wanted to minimize the time I spent
researching and looking at various solutions instead of implementing
one.
Thanks for the tips on using the ZOPE mailing lists. I will sign-up
as a user and post there. I also appricate the advice in setting up
access to MS-SQL Server and also using the "DataQueryKit Product".
You have not only helped in making my decision easier (not that it
seems I need to decide in the end) but also given me excellant
starting points.
Management here is not exactly that computer literate and don't really
understand Open Source software (like a lot of people) and as we run
primarily a Microsoft shop it's good to know in advance that ZOPE will
work nicely with what's already in place (I know that the Tech guys
will raise concerns for sure).
Thanks again,
Hugh
P.S. Thanks also for the weekend reading -- I will grab the ZOPE book
and look through it this weekend!!
Nicola Larosa
You're welcome, nothing like a good jumpstart to save time.
> You have not only helped in making my decision easier (not that it
> seems I need to decide in the end)
Now, I would slow down a bit. Surely Zope is a good Web tool, and the most
known in the Python world, but it's not the only one.
Based on your requirements it is likely the best choice for you, but it's
*my* opinion, so you could do worse than to give a look to a few alternative
options:
Webware (the most J2EE-like, and quite featureful)
http://webware.sourceforge.net/
SkunkWeb (smaller, but well endowed)
http://skunkweb.sourceforge.net/
Quixote (the smallest, a little jewel, PTLs are a charm)
http://www.mems-exchange.org/software/quixote/
All of them within the reach of the Snake, of course. :^) And there's also
Paul Boddie's description of some of them, to save another little bit of
your time:
http://www.boddie.org.uk/python/web_frameworks.html
> Management here is not exactly that computer literate and don't really
> understand Open Source software (like a lot of people) and as we run
> primarily a Microsoft shop it's good to know in advance that ZOPE will
> work nicely with what's already in place (I know that the Tech guys
> will raise concerns for sure).
Tell them to sleep soundly, they are accustomed to weaker stuff, after all.
[No smile here]
> P.S. Thanks also for the weekend reading -- I will grab the ZOPE book
> and look through it this weekend!!
Have fun with all the examples, you'll need a working install to make the
most of it.
Steve Holden
At the risk of sounding like a heretic...
I recently started to use DreamWeaver UltraDev (one of my clients mandated
its use) and I've been relatively impressed. For a really small
database-driven web created in DreamWeaver take a look at
http://www.holdenweb.com/TinySite/
This web has precisely four pages, and I built it to explain to beginners
how database contents can affect a site's navigation as well as its readable
content.
DreamWeaver MX is now out, and targets several more backends. It would be
nice if it had one that drove some suitable Python framework -- possibly
WebWare.
If you are already familiar with ASP, this will get you up to speed on your
tasks much more quickly than learning Zope. Won't be as much fun, though.
regards
Steve
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Steve Holden http://www.holdenweb.com/
Python Web Programming http://pydish.holdenweb.com/pwp/
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Hall
I notice no-one has suggested good ol' CGI. For a relatively simple job
such as this, a few basic Python CGI scripts, some templates and MySQLdb
could also be used ... oh, just noticed the MS-SQL database. There is
probably a module around to cope with MS-SQL, no?
Mick
--
--------------------------------
n i n t i . c o m
php-python-perl-mysql-postgresql
--------------------------------
Michael Hall ni...@ninti.com
--------------------------------
Tim Churches
>
> I notice no-one has suggested good ol' CGI. For a relatively simple job
> such as this, a few basic Python CGI scripts, some templates and MySQLdb
> could also be used ... oh, just noticed the MS-SQL database. There is
> probably a module around to cope with MS-SQL, no?
Object Craft have a Python wrapper for MS SQL Server. See
http://www.object-craft.com.au
And while you are there, have a look at their Albatross CGI-based
stateful Web application
framework, which could be just what is required for the rest of the Web
site envisaged.
In my experience, nearly all Web applications and database-driven Web
sites end up needing
to retain state information sooner or later. Might as well start
with a framework which can go the distance. Albatross is especially nice
in this respect because
you can choose alternative application models, starting with "SimpleApp"
which is just what the
name suggests, and later progress to more complex application models
through mixins without
having to start from scratch or throw away your existing code.
Tim C
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Dave Cole
Tim> Michael Hall wrote:
>> I notice no-one has suggested good ol' CGI. For a relatively
>> simple job such as this, a few basic Python CGI scripts, some
>> templates and MySQLdb could also be used ... oh, just noticed the
>> MS-SQL database. There is probably a module around to cope with
>> MS-SQL, no?
Tim> Object Craft have a Python wrapper for MS SQL Server. See
Tim> http://www.object-craft.com.au
Depending upon how you are going to access MS SQL Server, the Sybase
module might be a better choice.
If you are compiling against the MS SQL Server libraries, then the
MSSQL server module should be OK. If you are using FreeTDS then the
Sybase module is probably better (although still not perfect). If
using Sybase client libraries then either the MSSQL or Sybase modules
can probably be used.
Confused yet?
Tim> And while you are there, have a look at their Albatross CGI-based
Tim> stateful Web application framework, which could be just what is
Tim> required for the rest of the Web site envisaged. In my
Tim> experience, nearly all Web applications and database-driven Web
Tim> sites end up needing to retain state information sooner or
Tim> later. Might as well start with a framework which can go the
Tim> distance. Albatross is especially nice in this respect because
Tim> you can choose alternative application models, starting with
Tim> "SimpleApp" which is just what the name suggests, and later
Tim> progress to more complex application models through mixins
Tim> without having to start from scratch or throw away your existing
Tim> code.
Thanks for the plug Tim.
One of the goals I had when developing Albatross was to try to keep
the toolkit subservient to your code, not the other way around.
Whether I met that goal or not is a matter of opinion :-). If you
want to craft an application from a collection of code fragments which
run within an application server then Zope or Webware might be better
for you.
This page:
http://www.object-craft.com.au/projects/albatross/albatross/tug-simple2.html
shows a very simple CGI application which just uses the templating
parts of Albatross. If you do not want to use the application
functionality, you don't have to.
The application functionality is there to take most of the drudgery
out of organising your application code, maintaining sessions, and
working out just which page / request has been requested by the
browser.
When building a collection of small web applications (especially for
the intranet) you find yourself doing the same infrastructure and glue
things over and over. Albatross is designed to let you spend your
effort on the interesting parts of the applications.
Tim is correct about the ability to change application types with
minimal change to your application code. The toolkit calls your
request processing logic via the same interface regardless of how you
have decided to structure and deploy your application. This means you
can develop using CGI then deploy using mod_python. You can even
switch between server and client side sessions without changing much
more than the mainline.
Another important goal in Albatross is to keep the toolkit line count
very small so that people can easily look inside and see how it works.
Code is organised as a collection of mixin classes so that you can
easily substitute your own functionality where the Albatross code does
not suit you.
- Dave
Bill Tate
> I notice no-one has suggested good ol' CGI. For a relatively simple job
> such as this, a few basic Python CGI scripts, some templates and MySQLdb
> could also be used ... oh, just noticed the MS-SQL database. There is
> probably a module around to cope with MS-SQL, no?
>
> Mick
>
[snip]
It isn't that cgi wouldn't have been fine here. From my perspective,
its a matter of what architecture is likely to work for me over the
long haul? While cgi is perfectly fine in many cases, I don't think I
would want to implement all the "housekeeping" infrastructure that
would already have been implemented in tools like zope, webware,
skunkweb, twisted, etc...
Hugh Cowan
> Now, I would slow down a bit. Surely Zope is a good Web tool, and the most
> known in the Python world, but it's not the only one.
>
> Based on your requirements it is likely the best choice for you, but it's
> *my* opinion, so you could do worse than to give a look to a few alternative
> options:
>
> Webware (the most J2EE-like, and quite featureful)
> http://webware.sourceforge.net/
>
> SkunkWeb (smaller, but well endowed)
> http://skunkweb.sourceforge.net/
>
> Quixote (the smallest, a little jewel, PTLs are a charm)
> http://www.mems-exchange.org/software/quixote/
>
> All of them within the reach of the Snake, of course. :^) And there's also
> Paul Boddie's description of some of them, to save another little bit of
> your time:
>
> http://www.boddie.org.uk/python/web_frameworks.html
Wow -- thanks for the additional information and links. It certainly
doesn't hurt to look at other solutions, although I am quite happy
with what I have seen so far with Zope. I actually didn't think that
there were many *other* options out there that were available!
Is this sort / type of software what one would classify as "Web
Framework"? (as in the above link) I am having difficulty looking for
a description or class for this type of software. I haven't had time
to try Zope yet, but for instance I am assuming (not always a good
thing mind you) that you could create Static web pages (either coding
or WYSIWYG). In those terms Zope is an HTML editor -- but I know that
it offers a lot more functionality that just creating web-pages.
Someone else has mentioned using programs such as Dreamweaver -- but I
didn't think that they were in the same class / category of software?
Now that you have introduced me to some other software packages (which
I will look at) I am just trying to sort out the different types of
software (for myself and so that I can better explain why we need more
than MS-FrontPage) between Zope (Web Framework), HTML Editors /
Coders, and RAD Web development tools. I am sure that there is some
overlap between them all but I am just trying to figure out the main
differences between them.
Thanks again for the help and answers.
Hugh,
Hugh Cowan
Thanks for the suggestion and sample web-site, I will definetly
check-it out. Does DreamWaver support ASP then, or rather provide
support? I mean, I know that you could just add the ASP code mixed in
with the HTML manually, but does it offer any RAD type tools to help
make using ASP easier?
Also, I thought that Dreamweaver was more of just a HTML Editor, while
something like Zope provided extra functionality, tools, wizards,
etc.. to allow you to create Dynamic Web-Sites quicker and easier? I
am just trying to figure out where to concentrate my search for
software and tools.
I originally looked through the various *Freeware* web-sites for HTML
editors -- but there are so many of them out there (hard to pick one
from the other -- almost makes you want to go back to a plain old text
editor). While some offer advantages over others, they all seem to
basically assist you in generating the HTML code for web-pages (either
by coding or using a WYSIWYG type interface)?
Thanks,
Hugh
Steve Holden
>
> Thanks for the suggestion and sample web-site, I will definetly
> check-it out. Does DreamWaver support ASP then, or rather provide
> support? I mean, I know that you could just add the ASP code mixed in
> with the HTML manually, but does it offer any RAD type tools to help
> make using ASP easier?
>
Fusion or Java Server Pages. The new DW MX product apprently adds PHP and
some others.
The reason I suggested DW is its ability to quickly build reasonably exact
web page layouts, coupled with the ability to define templates whose layout
characteristics can quickly be applied to some or all of the pages in a
site. It's different from FrontPage in making it easy to define your own
templates rather than mostly using pre-built and somewhat clunky "themes"
that scream "this is a FrontPage site".
> Also, I thought that Dreamweaver was more of just a HTML Editor, while
> something like Zope provided extra functionality, tools, wizards,
> etc.. to allow you to create Dynamic Web-Sites quicker and easier? I
> am just trying to figure out where to concentrate my search for
> software and tools.
>
Zope's acquisition features can indeed be very helpful in propagating useful
behaviours to all necessary portions of a site. I'm not aware of wizards,
but I wouldn't be the first person to ask about Zope, since although I've
run it a couple of times I'm planning to wait until v3 to really try to get
to grips with it.
> I originally looked through the various *Freeware* web-sites for HTML
> editors -- but there are so many of them out there (hard to pick one
> from the other -- almost makes you want to go back to a plain old text
> editor). While some offer advantages over others, they all seem to
> basically assist you in generating the HTML code for web-pages (either
> by coding or using a WYSIWYG type interface)?
>
DW UltraDev comes wtih Fireworks, which is extremely capable at building
spiffy graphics like rollovers. DreamWeaver appears to generate reasonably
lightweight HTML (though the JavaScript tends to burgeon a bit when you
start to polish up your interface with dynamic graphics). It's also fairly
liberal at letting you edit the resulting HTML without stopping you from
using WYSIWYG mode.
I think probably anything further should be done by email, as we are
drifting well away from this NG's topic. I would still like to understand
what would be involved in adding another back-end to DreamWeaver, as it
would make a great addition to something like WebWare (one of the more
interesting Python web frameworks).
regards
ro...@execulink.com
>Also, I thought that Dreamweaver was more of just a HTML Editor, while
>something like Zope provided extra functionality, tools, wizards,
>etc.. to allow you to create Dynamic Web-Sites quicker and easier? I
>am just trying to figure out where to concentrate my search for
>software and tools.
I would very much advise against DreamWeaver and similar tools that
pretend designing web pages is a WYSIWYG activity, which it certainly
is not.
I prefer a simple text editor with some HTML convenience features (eg:
syntax highlighting) combined with a templating system. The text
editor lets you stay close to the HTML and CSS you'll need to know
inside out. (I use NoteTab Pro from Fookes software.) The templating
system provides a reasonable way of reusing "code" and helps enforce
consistency.
There are so many web frameworks because everyone has different ideas
about what they want to do. Zope is the heaviest solution and requires
buying into a completely different paradigm -- web as object space --
that many find unintuitive.
Other frameworks concentrate on low-level process handling to remove
the overhead of starting a new Python interpreter for each CGI
session. But the truth is that most sites don't benefit from this
optimisation. It depends on how many thousands of hits an hour you
expect.
My Wasp framework sticks close to the single document equals single
web page paradigm and operates on a web server strictly through CGI
with no fancy architectural tricks.
It provides session and cookie handling, error handling, logging,
e-mail notification, and post-mortem debugging. Plus lots of prebuilt
modules for the sorts of web tasks people need time and time again.
But mostly it helps organise your code by providing simple but
flexible templating.
It's just one of many.
Max M
> I would very much advise against DreamWeaver and similar tools that
> pretend designing web pages is a WYSIWYG activity, which it certainly
> is not.
I beg to differ Sire!
Dreamweaver is a very fast and convenient way to edit html. If you know
what you do, your code is just as clean as handcrafted html. There is
nothing in html that you cannot tweak in Dreamweaver.
regards Max M
Steve Holden
That's been my experience too. I have certainly been no fan of WTSIWYG
tools, FrontPage having made my life a misery for some short time before I
abandoned it. DreamWeaver does seem to be in a rather different class,
though not perfect. Don't knock it 'til you've tried it.
regards
ro...@execulink.com
> I would very much advise against DreamWeaver and similar tools that
> pretend designing web pages is a WYSIWYG activity, which it certainly
> is not.
"Max M" <ma...@mxm.dk> wrote ...
> Dreamweaver is a very fast and convenient way to edit html. If you know
> what you do, your code is just as clean as handcrafted html. There is
> nothing in html that you cannot tweak in Dreamweaver.
"Steve Holden" <sho...@holdenweb.com> wrote:
>That's been my experience too. I have certainly been no fan of WTSIWYG
>tools, FrontPage having made my life a misery for some short time before I
>abandoned it. DreamWeaver does seem to be in a rather different class,
>though not perfect. Don't knock it 'til you've tried it.
Well, I have tried it. In my role as web app designer and project
leader I have also had to deal with Dreamweavered code from
consultants. I can recognise the mess at a distance...
To me this argument is similar to saying that Perl is a great
language, because although you can write obsfucated code you don't
have to.
But I prefer Python because for the most part it encourages good
coding practices. IMO, a text editor with templating language
encourages good markup practices.
Perl, Dreamweaver, et al. encourage write-only documents and are
especially ill-suited to teamwork.
-- robin