oven heat and steam
Gordon Abbot
baking process, especially the arguments over brick and standard ovens.
It seems the only reason for the introduction of moisture in an oven is
to retard the sudden increase in heat and allow a more controlled and
slower oven push, so the bread has more time to rise and hence is
larger.
If you are taliking a brick oven, with all its thermal mass, you need
moisture to cool the oven air which allows the bread to rise in a slower
and controlled fashion. The moisture lowers and controlls the heat of
the air in the oven. You need steam in a brick oven.
In a conventional oven, opening the door and doing whatever will
accomplish the same thing because of the reduced thermal mass. Even
spraying the loaf before it goes in will add to the cooling efect. If
you use a stone, you get the heat for the oven spring and any
introduction of moisture controls the oven air. The only problem is in
how long that control lasts. And that is dependent on the amount of
moisture or the number of times moisture is introduced and how. So if
you open the door and spritz, or toss in an amount of
boiling/hot/war/cold water, it really does not make any difference as
long as you cool the oven air and allow the bread to have its max oven
spring.
So, what I am leading to is that there are a bunch of different ways to
accomplish what is not rocket science, which is just to cool the air in
the oven for a short time to allow the bread to have max oven spring,
and the optimum is in what works for you.
Personally, I have gone just about every route noted in this NG and
settled on a combination of high heat, tiles, spray the loaf, a couple
of sprits' on introduction and lower the heat.
GA
--
My address is spoofed, so do not reply directly.
Stu Silverstein
wrote on 5/8/02 7:48 AM:
Why do you feel it's necessary to add steam to the oven when a simply cloche
should work just as well.
Manny
Samartha
essentially,
At 11:48 AM 5/8/2002 +0000, you wrote:
[...]
>It seems the only reason for the introduction of moisture in an oven is
>to retard the sudden increase in heat and allow a more controlled and
>slower oven push, so the bread has more time to rise and hence is
>larger.
>
[...]
Wouldn't you think that the moisture contents of the air,
introduced as steam injection by various means into the
oven has some influence on crust hardening, keeping the crust
more elastic and thus allowing the bread to rise higher?
Furthermore, if the air humidity is higher, making the air
in the oven denser and - with the same temperature, it
would store more heat and - as I have read somewhere the
heat transfer to the bread is increased with steam.
I think that those factors are more relevant whereas the
cooling factor of steam creation by home bakers is a
necessary evil. It seems that bakery ovens have steam
injection facilities injecting steam at or near oven
temperature eliminating the cooling effect altogether.
The idea/report brought up here to use a steam cooker
for producing steam into a home oven at higher
temperature and eliminating the cooling effect to
a higher degree makes sense.
I am sure there is more to this steam issue, but to
see it simply as a cooling/delaying effect to have
a slower and controlled oven push for whatever purpose
does not seem to meet the point.
Samartha
remove "-nospam" when replying
Mike Avery
> Why do you feel it's necessary to add steam to the oven when a simply
> cloche should work just as well. Manny
A cloche costs $50.00 and only lets you bake one loaf at
a time.
Adding steam is essentially free, and lets you bake 4 to
6 loaves at a time in a regular oven.
Mike
nos...@auerbachatunity.ncsu.edu
on 05/08/02
<I am sure there is more to this steam issue, but to
<see it simply as a cooling/delaying effect to have
<a slower and controlled oven push for whatever purpose
<does not seem to meet the point.
Another reason to rejec tthe cooling theory: in the usual wood-fired
masonry ovens there is no cooling effect from the steam.
Yet those ovens produce the crusts we're all trying to simulate in home
ovens. (in large ones the steam is injected; in small ones (mine) the dough
supplies the humidity (the oven is unvented).
--
Regards,
David
Who hath not met with home-made bread,
A heavy compound of putty and lead.
-Thomas Hood
"What would life be without arithmetic, but a scene of horrors?"
-Rev. Sydney Smith, letter to young lady, 22 July 1835
-----------------------------------------------------------
David Auerbach nos...@auerbachatunity.ncsu.edu
Department of Philosophy & Religion
NCSU
Box 8103
Raleigh, 27695-8103
-----------------------------------------------------------
Dick Adams
"Gordon Abbot" <gab...@clinic.net> wrote in message
news:3CD9109E...@clinic.net...
> It seems the only reason for the introduction of moisture in an
oven is to retard the sudden increase in heat and allow a more
controlled and slower oven push, so the bread has more time to
rise and hence is
larger.
There are at least two reasons for introducing moisture into the
oven during the initial part of the bake:
1. To prevent the dough surface from drying out, setting before
the rise is complete.
2. To gelatinize the dough surface, towards promoting a thicker
and chewier eventual crust.
My feeling, at this moment, is that there are easier ways to
accomplish item 1., and that it is so difficult to establish the
conditions in home baking to achieve item 2. so that it is
probably not worth the attempt.
It seems important to understand the difference between water
vapor and steam. Steam can be much hotter and much wetter than
the air above water which is vaporizing at the normal boiling
point of water.
None of the talk here is really about steam. (Steam is what
happens in locomotive boilers, or used to, anyway.)
(But nobody is going to agree to, or remember that!)
But I agree with Gordon, that the big deal with what is ordinarily
regarded at r.f.s. as "steaming" the oven, is basically cooling
it. Possibly the air inside the oven is thereby humidified
slightly.
With the oven vent open, the introduction of a little moisture to
the oven is comparable to an incidence of flatulence in the Grand
Canyon.
---
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com
H. W. Hans Kuntze
> Another reason to rejec tthe cooling theory: in the usual wood-fired
> masonry ovens there is no cooling effect from the steam.
Of course not.
The thermal mass of the masonry and therefore the heat retention is a whole lot
bigger.
Sincerely.
--
C=¦-)§ H. W. Hans Kuntze, CMC, S.g.K. (_o_)
" Die einfachsten Dinge sind sehr kompliziert " Morgenroete
"http://www.cmcchef.com" -"http://www.chefdirect2u.com" --
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
nos...@auerbachatunity.ncsu.edu
<> Another reason to rejec tthe cooling theory: in the usual wood-fired
<> masonry ovens there is no cooling effect from the steam.
<Of course not.
<The thermal mass of the masonry and therefore the heat retention is a whole
<lot bigger.
Yep. That's what I meant. Should have said so.
The radiant heat (the dominant effect) is totally immune to the steam
(vapor). I am, of course, willing to believe that there is a very local
effect at the surface; but of course we knew that! The bread itself never
gets above 100C (except at the surface).
Big weekend coming up. Light the oven Friday night. Lots of boules going
in Saturday. Also chocolate-cherry bread which works really well. Might
work Kenneth's rye in there. Then the lamb and chicken. So many Calories
so little time.
--
Regards,
David
War is God's way of teaching Americans geography.
-Ambrose Bierce
H. W. Hans Kuntze
>
> Big weekend coming up. Light the oven Friday night. Lots of boules going
> in Saturday. Also chocolate-cherry bread which works really well. Might
> work Kenneth's rye in there. Then the lamb and chicken. So many Calories
> so little time.
Wish I was there, David. ;-)
Have fun ad try the forerunner of the Quiche/Pizza one of these days, some
German/Alsatian Zwiebelkuchen. .
Il vous faut:
200 g de pâte brisée, 150 g de poitrine de porc fumée, 100 g d'emmental râpé
Appareil à quiche : 2 œufs, 2 jaunes d'œufs, 1/4 litre de crème fleurette, 1/4
litre de lait, sel, poivre, noix de muscade
QUICHE
Although quiche is now a classic dish of French cuisine, quiche actually
originated in Germany, in the medieval kingdom of Lothringen, under German rule,
and which the French later renamed Lorraine. The word ‘quiche’ is from the
German ‘Küchen’, meaning cake.
The original ‘quiche Lorraine’ was an open pie with a filling consisting of an
egg and cream custard with smoked bacon. It was only later that cheese was added
to the quiche Lorraine. Add onions and you have quiche Alsacienne. The bottom
crust was originally made from bread dough, but that has long since evolved into
a short-crust or puff pastry crust.
Quiche became popular in England sometime after the Second World War, and in the
U.S. during the 1950's. Because of its primarily vegetarian ingredients, it was
considered a somehow ‘unmanly’ dish, - “real men don’t eat quiche.” Today, one
can find many varieties of quiche, from the original quiche Lorraine, to ones
with broccoli, mushrooms, ham and/or seafood (primarily shellfish). Quiche can be
served as an entrée, for lunch, breakfast or an evening snack.
Dave J
> the oven is comparable to an incidence of flatulence in the Grand
> Canyon.
Ha! ROTFLMAO! Great analogy. Made my day!
Dave J in CA
Kenneth
wrote:
>So, what I am leading to is that there are a bunch of different ways to
>accomplish what is not rocket science, which is just to cool the air in
>the oven for a short time to allow the bread to have max oven spring,
>and the optimum is in what works for you.
Hi,
My understanding of the purpose of steam in baking is almost precisely
the opposite of yours.
Air is a good insulator. Steam is a (rather) good conductor.
Steam is added not to cool the oven but rather to allow the heat of
the oven to be conducted to the dough. It is that heat that allows for
the increased spring.
Regards,
--
Kenneth
If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
Kenneth
<sdnews-inbo...@samartha.net> wrote:
>The idea/report brought up here to use a steam cooker
>for producing steam into a home oven at higher
>temperature and eliminating the cooling effect to
>a higher degree makes sense.
Hi Samartha,
I used that cooker idea for about ten years. It worked just fine. When
we built a new home we installed a Bongard bakers' oven. It is a
delight. It has super convenient integral steam injection. Of course,
it is a pleasure to just push that button, but for most baking, the
steam function is about the same as it was for my $12 rig on my old
Garland range. The one difference is in the use of what some baking
texts call "saturated" steam. With my old rig, the amount of steam
that could be produced was (relatively) modest. With the Bongard, I
can create clouds (and practically make it rain in the kitchen <g>).
All the best,
Bob.B.
Kenneth wrote in message ...>Steam is added not to cool the oven but rather
to allow the heat of
>the oven to be conducted to the dough. It is that heat that allows for
>the increased spring.
Ken,
Sounds very plausible. Would you also agree that a moist environment tends
to retard quick dessication of the outer surface of the loaf, keeping it
supple, and thereby affording maximum expansion?
Bob
Dick Adams
"Kenneth" <so...@SPAMLESSsoleassociates.com> wrote in message
news:gtvkdukclu36r7bn1...@4ax.com...
> Steam is added not to cool the oven but rather to allow the heat
of the oven to be conducted to the dough. It is that heat that
allows for the increased spring.
For hearth breads, deck breads (as you possibly may be baking),
and "stone breads" (such as are attempted by amateur home bakers),
the major heat during the oven rise is provided by the
hearth/deck/stone). There is no "steam" between the bread and
that. The "steam" may keep the upper surfaces of the dough moist
and elastic so that the dough can succeed to get pumped up by the
hot gases and vapors generated in the dough by heat from the
heart/deck/stone. A great deal of wet "steam" may potentate
desirable crust properties by gelatinizing the bread surface
before it cooks in the oven heat. Such is my understanding,
subject to correction.
"Kenneth" <so...@SPAMLESSsoleassociates.com> wrote in message
news:m30lduc9bvl284bjn...@4ax.com...
> With the Bongard, I can create clouds (and practically make it
rain in the kitchen <g>).
When you figure out how that sucker works, you are going to be
able to bake some mighty fine "artisanal" bread loaves. <g>
Kenneth
Hi Bob,
In a word... no <g>.
The amounts of water that are boiled off to produce (baking) steam are
minuscule when compared to the amount of water in the dough. I don't
believe that there is any noticeable impact on the elasticity of the
dough.
Have fun,
Samartha
Well - what matters is not the amount of water in the air in
the oven, but the effects the water vapor saturated air has
and dough elasticity was not mentioned.
And AFAIKS, Bob is right on when talking about the "surface" of
the loaf = crust and the effects the delayed hardening with steam
has on rise = expansion.
Here is a little paragraph about the steam issue babelfished from
my German baking school book, which may enlighten the issue
a little more. It should be also in the US Art of baking book
probably in better wording.
The term they use there is "vapor":
Vapor for improved baking atmosphere
When baking wheat-"doughlings" (white flour dough shaped loafs),
the air in the oven has to be enriched with hot steam until the
the "doughlings" are thoroughly baked. Immediately before charging
the oven, a minimum of vapor has to be introduced.
Steam contains a significantly larger amount of heat than air
with the same temperature. The vapor in the oven builds a
condensate on the cool dough surfaces which has good head
conductivity.
- With that, the loaf volume can increase with increasing gas
pressure without undesired building of cracks in the dough skin.
- With that, a stronger formation of slashings is facilitated
on the marked places.
Vapor promotes building of dextrin on dough surfaces. The dissolved
dextrin browns during baking and gives shiny crusts.
Maybe this helps,
Bob.B.
Kenneth wrote in message ...>Hi Bob,
>
>In a word... no <g>.
>
>The amounts of water that are boiled off to produce (baking) steam are
>minuscule when compared to the amount of water in the dough. I don't
>believe that there is any noticeable impact on the elasticity of the
>dough.
>
>Have fun,
>--
>Kenneth
Ken,
I'm not sure. I bake two, small loaves at a time, which together contain
about 1 1/4 cups of water. When I add water to the oven to create steaming,
I throw in 2/3 cup, viz., 64% of the water that is in the dough. All this
water in converted to steam in the short time that loaf expansion occurs.
This is hardly miniscule but a significant amount of water relative to that
in the dough itself. I am unconvinced, but I may not be following your
line of argument as you intended.
Bob
Kenneth
Hi Samartha,
Those interesting comments seem to confirm what I had suggested (about
heat conductivity to the dough). I see nothing there about (in effect)
moistening to dough so that it can expand. Is there something that I
am missing?
Thanks,
Don Dilworth
says " Furthermore, if the air humidity is higher, making the air in the
oven denser.."
A molecule of water vapor is lighter (less dense) then a molecule of air,
therefore the higher relative humidity the lighter (less dense) the air.
These ratios are so well understood that the relative humidity is included
in the calculation of "density altitude" when calculated the performance of
an airplane on takeoff.
Dick Adams
"Don Dilworth" <ja...@dell.com> wrote in message
news:3cdb0...@news1.prserv.net...
> These ratios are so well understood that the relative humidity
is included in the calculation of "density altitude" when
calculated the performance of an airplane on takeoff.
Never mind taking off, or landing, either. We just want to fly
level and make turns.
Is the humidity important for that?
Mark
Bob,
Your comment is right on target. Condensation of the steam on the
cool loaves helps delay the drying out of the skin. This delay in
formation of the crust allows the loaf to expand during oven spring
without splitting open. ( Of course proper proofing and slashing also
contribute to preventing the splitting.)
Steam in the oven as Kenneth states does also aid in conducting heat
to promote oven spring. Loaves baked in a dry oven will cool somewhat
as a result of evaporation and oven spring will be deminished as the
crust sets before the interior reaches a favorable temperature for
maximum ovenspring to occur.
Samartha mentioned other factors associated with steaming that
should not go unnoticed either. Water condensed at the surface of the
loaves with contribute to gelatinization of starches producing the
shiny crust and increased time before the crust dries out allows for
more activity by the enzymes that convert starch to sugars which in
carmelize to give the loaf it's sultry brown color.
I hope this helps.
Mark
PS I reread an article in "Bread Lines"(The Bread Bakers Guild of
America newsletter - winter 1999) written by Greg Tompkins to get the
information as accurate as possible (except for the sultry part,
that's my intellctual property).
PPS I think ultimately that even professional bakers settle on the
combination of things that work for them, things that get the desired
results even if they don't understand them. The science of baking is
so complicated if you tried to understand everything you'd never get
to bake anything. Have fun.
Samartha
At 06:01 PM 5/9/2002 -0400, you wrote:
...
>I see nothing there about (in effect)
>moistening to dough so that it can expand. Is there something that I
>am missing?
I don't know?
Should there be something about the steam/vapor moistening
the dough?
You keep bringing up the "moistening the dough from
the steam so it can expand" requirement.
Why do you think it should be there?
Looks I am missing something.
I am not trying to be silly..
Dick Adams
"Samartha" <sdnews-inbo...@samartha.net> wrote in message
news:mailman.1021005080.87...@www.mountainbitwar
rior.com...
> I am not trying to be silly.
Why aren't you trying?
Everybody else is.
I really hope that Kenneth will send us (link) a photo of the
rainclouds in his kitchen. Maybe we can get a glimpse of the
Bongard through the mist.
Kenneth
Hi Samartha,
The "elasticity" issue was earlier in the thread, and I was responding
to it. Nothing more than that...
Best,
>remove "-nospam" when replying
Dick Adams
"Kenneth" <> wrote in message
news:lcdndu0qenba4q6e3...@4ax.com...
> The "elasticity" issue was earlier in the thread, and I was
responding to it. Nothing more than that...
Jeez, Kenneth, you could tell us much more!
In <news:m30lduc9bvl284bjn...@4ax.com> you wrote:
> ...for most baking, the steam function is about the same as it
was for my $12 rig on my old Garland range. The one difference is
in the use of what some baking texts call "saturated" steam. With
my old rig, the amount of steam that could be produced was
(relatively) modest. With the Bongard, I can create clouds ...
You have reportedly had that Bongard for over a year now. Do you
mean to imply that the pressure cooker trick with your old stove
is just about as good as the Bongard? Have you figured out what
the "saturated steam" is good for?
Can you make bread so good as San Francisco Sourdough French
Bread? Do you need to use the "saturated steam" when you do that?
Can you tell how hot the decks get? How hot do they need to be to
get good crumb structure (holey, full of large elliptical bubbles,
you know... ). Could you do that with the Garland+pressure-cooker
rig?
I don't have any SF bread to show you, but here is a photo of
local bread which show the kind of crumb structure (to an extreme)
which I associate with SF bread.
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread_culture/iggys.htm
Iggy's, I believe, is using deck ovens similar in principle to
your Bongard. I believe the bakers of SF sourdough breads use
that kind of oven usually these days. It seems to me that you
should be able to come pretty close to duplicating those kinds of
breads in your Bongard.
Can you do better than Samartha is doing with his SF-type
doughlings on hot tiles in a moist home oven. For instance:
http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/SF01/MakeSF01-0.html
http://samartha.net/images/SD/BYDATE/02-01-26/CarlsPower-1-2.html#
If not, please tell us, so that we can save a lot of money by not
buying expensive deck ovens for our kitchens.
Brian Mailman
Only when casting it into the waters :)
B/
Gary
I'm NOT writing from experience!
That said I was watching a show in which they were making bread in a kitchen
over and their solution for the steam injection was to place a cast iron
skillet in the over at the time they started to heat the stone. Then when
they slid the loaf onto the stone to bake they added a few ice cubes to the
cast iron pan. The idea was to generate the steam for a longer period.
Sounded and looked like it might work, so I remembered it.
I take no responsibility for the results good or bad. As I'm writing this I
seem to remember that is was a New York baker that was a guest on someones
show that used this techinque.
Gary
Michael Pearce
bread's crust)
"Gary" <oregonda...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:ac1av2$hmv$1...@suaar1aa.prod.compuserve.com...
Scott
"Gary" <oregonda...@compuserve.com> wrote:
> That said I was watching a show in which they were making bread in a kitchen
> over and their solution for the steam injection was to place a cast iron
> skillet in the over at the time they started to heat the stone. Then when
> they slid the loaf onto the stone to bake they added a few ice cubes to the
> cast iron pan. The idea was to generate the steam for a longer period.
The contrary point some have made is that adding the ice may drop the
oven temperature excessively. Besides, you don't need the steam after
the first few minutes, and no more than 10.
--
to respond, change "spamless.invalid" to "optonline.net"
Please post replies, unless they are off-topic.
Michael Pearce
cubes or so.
"Scott" <Heim...@spamless.invalid> wrote in message
news:Heimdall-023431...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
rzw...@yahoo.com
Another thing I was wondering was, if you have a seasoned cast iron
skillet and you go throwing ice in it while it's red hot, wouldn't
that totally ruin the seasoning. I guess maybe you'd have a pan just
for that purpose if that's what you wanted to do.
-Ryan
Michael Pearce
it's just above the burners. I imagine that would be the place that would
most likely result in cracking.
It does screw up the seasoning. I've got a lot of cast iron skillets so I
have one I just leave in my oven most of the time. I could always re-season
it if I wanted to. I use a fairly small one (6 in.) that I don't use too
often for anything else.
Cast iron probably isn't necessary. I don't see why you couldn't use any
pan. I used to use an old baking pan that I didn't use anymore. I suppose
the cast iron does retain the heat better than most and would be less likely
to cool down as much when the ice was added.
-Mike
<rzw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3ce5023...@news.cisco.com...
Scott
"Michael Pearce" <MPEA...@attbi.com> wrote:
> In my case the ice is long gone by 10 minutes. I don't put a lot in, just 3
> cubes or so.
OK, but how much thermal energy is going towards melting the ice in that
period of time, rather than keeping the oven hot?
Not only that, it's not necessary. I add a cup of boiling water to my
pre-heated cast iron pan at the same that that I put the dough into the
oven. There's still water left over after 10 minutes (by which time I
remove the pan).
Kenneth
wrote:
>OK, but how much thermal energy is going towards melting the ice in that
>period of time, rather than keeping the oven hot?
>Not only that, it's not necessary. I add a cup of boiling water to my
>pre-heated cast iron pan at the same that that I put the dough into the
>oven. There's still water left over after 10 minutes (by which time I
>remove the pan).
Howdy,
You are correct when you mention the thermal energy that goes into
melting the ice, but neglect to mention that a similar problem is
generated by the method you use:
It takes a tremendous amount of energy to boil the water that you put
in the pan. The fact that you use "boiling" water helps only modestly.
Using boiling water saves the energy of warming the water to the
boiling point; but it does nothing to provide the energy of transition
from the liquid (water) to the gaseous (steam) state.
Indeed, much of that heat energy may be stored in the pan itself, but
it is also likely that you are cooling the oven because of the boiling
in the oven itself.
If you want to be certain that you preserve the heat of the oven (so
that it can be put into the loaves), I believe it is necessary to
generate the steam outside of the oven itself. Then, that steam is
conveyed to the oven. This, by the way, is easy to do, is safe, and
cheap...
Have fun with your baking,
Michael Pearce
the oven. How much energy does it take to get the oven back up to
temperature after you remove the pan? I certainly don't know how they would
compare.
The main thing I'm looking for is the result and I've been pretty happy with
the crust. I've tried your method as well. It works well too. I used to use
a squirt bottle and give the oven wall and floor a good squirting a couple
of times early on in the baking, but didn't like the idea of opening the
oven. It probably didn't matter all that much.
I'm probably just lazy and find it easier to chuck in a few ice cubes that
to boil the water. :)
Harold McGee (The guy who wrote On Food and Cooking) did some experiments on
how quickly an oven comes back up to temperature after opening the door for
as much as a minute and it was surprisingly fast. I don't recall exactly how
fast it was but it was much faster than I would have expected. I would
expect that the times would vary by oven. He did say that in his gas oven
the burners sometimes would not even go on before it got back up to
temperature. I could go dig out the specifics if you're interested.
-Mike
"Scott" <Heim...@spamless.invalid> wrote in message
news:Heimdall-5772F3...@news2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net...
Kenneth
<MPEA...@attbi.com> wrote:
>The main thing I'm looking for is the result and I've been pretty happy with
>the crust.
Hi Mike,
Of course your satisfaction is the only thing that really matters...
Enjoy your baking,
Rickie
1. Put the stone in the oven middle rack
2. Put some supports in the bottom of the oven for a pan that will hold the
water
3. At least 45 minutes before baking, turn the oven on at 500 (so the stone
gets really hot)
4. 10 minutes before baking, put the pan on the supports, and (being careful
not to touch anything!), pour 1C of hot water into the pan
By the time I put in the dough, the water in the pan is boiling nicely. It's
all evaporated by about half way through the baking cycle. If I wanted to
extend the steamy time, I'd just add more water. Putting in the pan and
water at the same time avoids the problem of pouring cold water into a
500-degree pan.
I've had some terrific results with this, but as David A says, nothing like
what happens in his brick oven.
-Rickie
"Gary" <oregonda...@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:ac1av2$hmv$1...@suaar1aa.prod.compuserve.com...
Scott
Kenneth <so...@SPAMLESSsoleassociates.com> wrote:
> It takes a tremendous amount of energy to boil the water that you put
> in the pan. The fact that you use "boiling" water helps only modestly.
> Using boiling water saves the energy of warming the water to the
> boiling point; but it does nothing to provide the energy of transition
> from the liquid (water) to the gaseous (steam) state.
>
> Indeed, much of that heat energy may be stored in the pan itself, but
> it is also likely that you are cooling the oven because of the boiling
> in the oven itself.
Well, I'm pouring it into a large cast-iron pan that's aleady been
heated to 450-500 degrees (or whatever is needed). The pan has a lot of
mass, so the heat loss should be minimal. I keep the oven raised a bit
high during the "steam stage" to counteract the energy loss of
converting the boiling water to steam.
> If you want to be certain that you preserve the heat of the oven (so
> that it can be put into the loaves), I believe it is necessary to
> generate the steam outside of the oven itself. Then, that steam is
> conveyed to the oven. This, by the way, is easy to do, is safe, and
> cheap...
How?
Kenneth
wrote:
>> If you want to be certain that you preserve the heat of the oven (so
>> that it can be put into the loaves), I believe it is necessary to
>> generate the steam outside of the oven itself. Then, that steam is
>> conveyed to the oven. This, by the way, is easy to do, is safe, and
>> cheap...
>
>How?
Hello again,
For about ten years I used the following rig to pipe steam into my
Garland oven:
I had a cheap pressure cooker (about $10), drilled a hole in the top,
ran a copper tube from there down the back of the oven, and into the
vent. This "boiler" sat on the range top, boiled water there, and
conveyed the resulting steam into the oven. It worked wonderfully
well.
BTW, please don't be put off by the fact that this was a "pressure"
cooker. There was, of course, no pressure at all because the tube was
open at both ends. I used this arrangement only because it was easy
for me to add water to the boiler without removing the tube.
Have fun if you give it a try (or if you don't),
Scott
Kenneth <so...@SPAMLESSsoleassociates.com> wrote:
> I had a cheap pressure cooker (about $10), drilled a hole in the top,
> ran a copper tube from there down the back of the oven, and into the
> vent. This "boiler" sat on the range top, boiled water there, and
> conveyed the resulting steam into the oven. It worked wonderfully
> well.
>
> BTW, please don't be put off by the fact that this was a "pressure"
> cooker. There was, of course, no pressure at all because the tube was
> open at both ends. I used this arrangement only because it was easy
> for me to add water to the boiler without removing the tube.
The problem here, for me, is that my stove and oven are on opposite
walls of the kitchen.
Dick Adams
"Kenneth" <so...@SPAMLESSsoleassociates.com> wrote in message
news:ifrheustt7ik7f2dj...@4ax.com...
> ...
> For about ten years I used the following rig to pipe steam into
my Garland oven:
> (Cheap pressure cooker trick)
> ... It worked wonderfully well. ...
If it worked so wonderfully well, Kenneth Sole, what is the
purpose of the Bongard?
Is there any objective way to compare loaves cooked in the Garland
so fitted, with loaves cooked in the Bongard using the "saturated
steam" available in the Bongard?
It might also have been of interest to compare loaves baked in the
modified Garland with "steam" and without it.
Kenneth
wrote:
>The problem here, for me, is that my stove and oven are on opposite
>walls of the kitchen.
Hello again,
Hmmm, well let's see, copper tubing cost how much per foot? <g>
Clearly, my suggestion applies only to those who have their range
above their oven as I did for years. I am sorry that it will not be of
help to you.
All the best,
Mark
> On Wed, 08 May 2002 11:48:49 GMT, Gordon Abbot <gab...@clinic.net>
Steam is a (rather) good conductor.
I have just recently had an experience with steam conducting a
significant amount of heat onto my bare knuckles, ouch! Cool water,
an ice pack and a couple of aloe leaves later I think I might survive
to tell the tale without blisters from a couple seconds exposure to
intense oven steam.
>
> Steam is added not to cool the oven but rather to allow the heat of
> the oven to be conducted to the dough. (Or baker! ;-0 )
I preheat my oven for 1-1 1/2 hours up to a temperature of 550
degrees. In my oven I have three "pizza stones" (all bought on sale)
about 18 lbs. total, and eight 4 lb. bricks and as a new 8 1/2 lbs.
addition a small ceramic casserole with river rocks (landscaping
stones). The river rocks in the casserole dish receive the hot water
for steaming the oven.
If you've ever been in a suana and poured water on the stones you
know a lot of steam is the result, (why not treat your loaves to a
sauna for all their hard work.) This cloud of steam in my oven will
conduct all the heat contained in the vapor to whatever it can and it
is usually the coolest thing that it condenses on, just like a cold
drink sweats on humid days the loaf will collect the water vapor
because it's the coolest thing in your oven (and yes some will escape
through the oven vent) and the dough will absorb this heat and the
water.
> It is that heat that allows for the increased spring.
I have over fifty pounds of added mass in my oven to store and
deliver heat.
I also preheat to at least 100 degrees over what my desired baking
temperature is. So how much am I losing by adding steam/hot water?
So any ways if anybody gets any ideas fom this post and you decide
to pour hot water onto a tray of hot rocks my advice is to wear an
oven mitt or do something to protect your hands!(or you may be forced
to say some not so nice words)
I can't say if this method was worth the trouble but I hope it
illustrates the point that steam delivers heat. I over proofed my
bread, work schedule,temps and humidity were reeking havoc with my
timing for this loaf. I also may have slammed the oven door a little
too hard while "I began to realize the pain I was in". :-) I think it
will work out when I figure out how much water I can add for maximum
steam benefit.
happy baking,
Mark
James Wendy
> Steam is a (rather) good conductor.
>
> I have just recently had an experience with steam conducting a
> significant amount of heat onto my bare knuckles, ouch!
Actually, steam carries "latent heat" that is set free as it condenses
to water when it gets in contact with your relatively cool skin... and
yes, it is one of the most efficient ways to get blisters!
I've burned myself badly this way just lifting the lid off of a pan
of boiling water and not moving it away while dropping something in
with the other hand... But so far I have avoided steaming myself
when baking bread in the oven and only burned my skin a couple of
times through direct contact with hot metal parts!
The large amounts of heat that need to be evacuated when water condenses
in your AC unit also help to explain the utility bills you later get...
J.W.