Ancestors witnessing supernatural events
Avi Norowitz
I was wondering if someone could help me with the following research.
(Scroll down for an explanation of why I am interested in this
information.) I am not very knowledgable in mythology or history, so I
apologize for any obvious errors that I make.
(1) I am looking for a specific kind of myth with the following
criteria:
(a) A considerably large group of people witnesses or experiences an
apparently supernatural event.
(b) There is large group of real people either today or sometime in
history, who would believe the myth and say "those were my ancestors."
(2) So far, I am aware of two cases that appear to fit this criteria
fairly well:
(a) The Israelite exodus and national revelation at Sinai. According
to the Torah (Pentateuch), these events involved 600,000 men and their
families. Religious Jews today and in the past believe in the events
and would say "those were my ancestors."
(b) Celtic wars involving humans, gods, and other supernatural
beings (http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=360F86EE.1035%40york.ac.uk).
Some Irish people today and most Irish people in the Middle Ages would
believe in the events and say "those were my ancestors." Ideally
though, I still need to find quotes from texts to demonstrate that
many humans were present.
(3) I am aware of the following cases which fit this criteria
partially:
(a) The Greek myth about the repopulation after a global flood,
where Deucalion and Pyrrha threw stones on the ground to create humans
(http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=6p5jkl%24d89%243%40sirius.dur.ac.uk).
It seems apparent that this was believed, as Ovidius in
"Metamorphoses" (1.348-1.416) writes "It is much beyond belief, were
not receding ages witness ... every stone Deucalion threw should take
the form of man, and those by Pyrrha cast should woman's form assume,"
and therefore fits criteria 1b. Furthermore, Pindar in "Odes"
(9.5-10.5) writes "they founded a unified race of stone offspring."
This hints that they were created as full population. However, Ovidius
uses the words "threw some stones behind them" possibly suggesting
that it was only a handful of people that were regenerated. Since it
is not clear that it was a large group of people, this myth may not
completely fit criteria 1a.
(b) The population of Crisans were believed to have witnessed Apollo
over a temple in Crisa
(http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=6p5h0h%24cbq%241%40sirius.dur.ac.uk).
Based on the Homeric Hymn to Pythian Apollo 440-544 and Pausanias
10.37.5-8, it is not clear to me that there were people who believed
these Crisans were their ancestors who would say "our ancestors
witnessed it." Therefore I cannot confirm that it fits criteria 1b.
(c) The myth of Castor and Pollux helping the Roman army in the
Battle of Lake Regillus, and later reporting the news to the
population (http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=WbT69.12851%24Ke2.1121628%40bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net).
Based on Cicero's "On the Nature of the Gods" (2.6, 3.5-13) it seems
reasonable to accept that people believed it. However, it is not clear
to me that there were people who would say "our ancestors witnessed
it" (criteria 1b), that it was a large amount of people that
supposedly saw the gods (criteria 1a), or that the gods appeared in a
supernatural form rather than a human form (criteria 1a).
It has been argued (see for example
http://www.ohr.org.il/special/books/gott/truth-6.htm) that myths that
meet the criteria of 1 cannot be false, and that the only myth that
fits the criteria of 1 is 2a (Israelite myth). Therefore, 2a must be
accepted as historical, including the supernatural events.
This argument, which known as the Kuzari Argument, is obviously
flawed, and 2b (Celtic myth) attests to that. Nevertheless, I know
some very intelligent people who accept it. I am in the process of
writing an essay as a criticism of the Kuzari Argument
(http://ulag.net/papers/kuzariflaws.php).
(4) To help me improve the essay I was wondering if someone could
provide me with any information on one of the following:
(a) Another myth which fits the criteria of 1. If possible,
including a source and/or a specific name of the event so I can find
it.
(b) Clarification of the myths that only partially qualify (3), if
you believe it fits the criteria of 1.
(c) A source that specifically testifies of a large amount of humans
in Celtic mythology (2b) witnessing supernatural events (criteria 1a).
I would be highly appreciative of any assistance.
Thanks.
Dr. Sunil
On 25 Nov 2002, Avi Norowitz wrote:
>
> (a) The Israelite exodus and national revelation at Sinai. According
> to the Torah (Pentateuch), these events involved 600,000 men and their
> families. Religious Jews today and in the past believe in the events
> and would say "those were my ancestors."
The Ark must have been some kind od device built by Moses in 40 days
(wouldn't it be strange if an imnipotent god took 40 days to pass the
word to Moses?).
> (3) I am aware of the following cases which fit this criteria
> partially:
>
> (a) The Greek myth about the repopulation after a global flood,
> where Deucalion and Pyrrha threw stones on the ground to create humans
> (http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=6p5jkl%24d89%243%40sirius.dur.ac.uk).
Almost all cultures have a flood myth, Jewish, Indian, Mesopotamian,
Egyptian, Norse. Must have been due to the flloding at the end of the
Ice Age, when sea level rose by over 100 metres in 10,000 years (but
in three great 10s of metre spurts 14,000, 11,0000, and 8,000 years
ago).
Eric Stevens
For an entirely different approach to such myths I suggest you read
Exodus to Arthur - Catastrophic Encounters with Comets
Mike Baillie (Queens University Dublin) 1999
ISBN 0 7134 8352 0
As a follow up, some of the (now slightly dated) material in the
Proceedings of the Second SIS Cambridge Conference, British
Archaeological Reports -S728, 1998. "Natural Catastrophes During
Bronze Age Civilisations: Archaeological, geological, astronomical and
cultural perspectives" http://www.knowledge.co.uk/sis/cambproc.htm -
may be relevant.
Eric Stevens
Aemon
wrote:
>On 25 Nov 2002, Avi Norowitz wrote:
>
>>
>> (a) The Israelite exodus and national revelation at Sinai. According
>> to the Torah (Pentateuch), these events involved 600,000 men and their
>> families. Religious Jews today and in the past believe in the events
>> and would say "those were my ancestors."
I'm also prepared to believe that there really was an Exodus of
Jahovah people from Egypt alright who was then looking for Zion. It
does not follow from this that there was a flood that covered the
entire planet to a minimum depth of 29,000+ feet (the height of Mount
Everest) which then 'blew away' after a few months.
>The Ark must have been some kind od device built by Moses in 40 days
>(wouldn't it be strange if an imnipotent god took 40 days to pass the
>word to Moses?).
I do not believe that Noah and his few lads could build a boat big
enough in 40 days and nights to house 2 of 100,000's of animal species
and what of the other boats around the world? They would also have
survived....the whole Noah story, if taken as literal truth is too
stupid to believe by anyone with any intelligence.
>> (3) I am aware of the following cases which fit this criteria
>> partially:
>>
>> (a) The Greek myth about the repopulation after a global flood,
>> where Deucalion and Pyrrha threw stones on the ground to create humans
>> (http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=6p5jkl%24d89%243%40sirius.dur.ac.uk).
>
>Almost all cultures have a flood myth, Jewish, Indian, Mesopotamian,
>Egyptian, Norse.
Tell me about the Norse one then...<taps foot>
> Must have been due to the flloding at the end of the
>Ice Age, when sea level rose by over 100 metres in 10,000 years (but
>in three great 10s of metre spurts 14,000, 11,0000, and 8,000 years
>ago).
I am inclined to think that it would be unusual if any given cultures
didn't have a 'big flood' story. Think about it.
Nik
Avi Norowitz
other? Some of them happen to be very similar.
"Dr. Sunil" <sp...@bc.ic.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.3.95q.1021125194833.4935B-100000@biochem...
BernardZ
use...@ulag.net says...
> Isn't it more likely that these cultures simply borrowed myths from each
> other? Some of them happen to be very similar.
Some I would say yes like the flood and the creation of the world but
some are clearly not.
Morpheus
news:e6dfe776.02112...@posting.google.com...
> Hello,
>
> I was wondering if someone could help me with the following research.
> (Scroll down for an explanation of why I am interested in this
> information.) I am not very knowledgable in mythology or history, so I
> apologize for any obvious errors that I make.
>
> (1) I am looking for a specific kind of myth with the following
> criteria:
>
> (a) A considerably large group of people witnesses or experiences an
> apparently supernatural event.
> (b) There is large group of real people either today or sometime in
> history, who would believe the myth and say "those were my ancestors."
>
the Miracle of Fatima in Portugal in, (I think) 1917. There have been
other sightings of the Virgin Mary but that is the largest mass sighting
that I can recall. I doubt that few, if any, of the actual participants are
still living but their descendants (and other devout Catholics) still
believe strongly.
Tron Furu
Aemon <repub...@email.com> skrev i
meldingsnyheter:qdg5uu8om1akg32sb...@4ax.com...
> >Almost all cultures have a flood myth, Jewish, Indian, Mesopotamian,
> >Egyptian, Norse.
>
> Tell me about the Norse one then...<taps foot>
Ymir: (Iceland) The "evil" source of creation in Norse myths. The primeval
father of all the Giants of Norse myth. He was fed by the 4 milky streams
that flowed from Audhumla, the cow. He fathered the race of frost giants who
were enemies of the gods. Ymir grew so large and so evil that Odin and his
brothers (Vili and Ve) could no longer live with him. They killed him, and
the blood gushed from his body in such torrents (A flood myth) that all the
giants except Bergelmer and his wife were killed. These two took refuge on a
chest and came to the shores of Jotunheim. From them another race of frost
giants was born.
TF
Elliot Harmon
groups of people witnessed at once. If the stories continued (and I see
no reason for them not to), they'll someday be cited right alongside the
flood and creation stories.
--
Elliot Harmon
http://elliot.superharmonbros.com
"It should not escape our notice that the most massive tyrannies of our
century have been established by men who intended to create an earthly
paradise." -Francis Canavan
Matt Giwer
> Hello,
> I was wondering if someone could help me with the following research.
> (Scroll down for an explanation of why I am interested in this
> information.) I am not very knowledgable in mythology or history, so I
> apologize for any obvious errors that I make.
> (1) I am looking for a specific kind of myth with the following
> criteria:
> (a) A considerably large group of people witnesses or experiences an
> apparently supernatural event.
> (b) There is large group of real people either today or sometime in
> history, who would believe the myth and say "those were my ancestors."
There are a fair number of not so great traditions such as Constantine seeing "In
Hoc Signo Vinces" or some such in the sky. Presumably there were believers in
the myth for as long as it took for the descendants of his army to suffer a
major defeat -- which may not have been long.
If that counts "signs and portents" on the eve of battle are quite common. There
was even some appearance over the trenches in WWI.
In most cases the issue is your second criteria, how many people and for how
long? "My ancestors saw the miracle of ______" where it can be Fatima, Lourdes
so wars do not have to be involved.
While nothing stands out as an example "My grandfather was saved by ____" is
heard regularly.
If you expand your essay you can show the phenomenon itself is quite common
varying in degree. Tracing it back to family bragging rights shows the origin.
Moving it forward takes it to clan and tribal brags.
--
Irv Rubin reported brain dead. That is not news.
-- The Iron Webmaster, 2200
Jason
an Agent, Tron? I'm sure you already have one, but thanks-a-million for
sharing your talents. ENCORE!
Oh, btw, I'm new here. Hi. :' >
I'm denying every word of what you may dig up on me, man, it was a set-up~!
I swear to..
*fade to lurk*
..
...
....
.....
......
"Tron Furu" <tron...@frisurf.no> wrote in message
news:%cPE9.4242$8E1....@news4.e.nsc.no...
William C Waterhouse
In article <e6dfe776.02112...@posting.google.com>,
use...@ulag.net (Avi Norowitz) writes:
>...>
> (1) I am looking for a specific kind of myth with the following
> criteria:
>
> (a) A considerably large group of people witnesses or experiences an
> apparently supernatural event.
> (b) There is large group of real people either today or sometime in
> history, who would believe the myth and say "those were my ancestors."
>
Probably the Spanish and the story of Santiago Matamoros (Saint James
the Moorslayer) would satisfy this. Here is a version of the story:
---
SAINT JAMES THE MOOR SLAYER
Many miracles were performed by the awakened St. James with the
first being at the battle of Clavijo. The night before the battle
King Ramiro was visited in a dream by St. James who promised him
victory . True to his word the Apostle appeared from the sky to
Ramiro's forces mounted on a white charger bearing in one hand a
white banner displaying a red cross. In his other hand he carried
a flashing sword with which he single handed slew no less
than sixty thousand Moors. In gratitude to Santiago the victors
vowed to donate each year a bushel of corn or wine to the church
at Compostella. This tribute lasted until as recently as 1812 and
it explains the considerable wealth and power of the cathedral
city of Santiago.
<http://www.charlietocompostela.co.uk/history.htm>
----
Here is an example of curent belief:
----
Santiago has been very important to Hispanics for many hundreds
of years.... Our people believe that Santiago (St. James the Great)
helped the Christians defeat the Moors in battle. In the new world
in New Mexico, he is also believed to have helped the conquistadores
against the Indians.
<http://www.zianet.com/hlparra/Santiago.html>
----
William C. Waterhouse
Penn State
Tron Furu
Jason <ia...@msn.com> skrev i
meldingsnyheter:as0u5...@enews1.newsguy.com...
> JESUS CHRIST! Quick, don't write another word! Somebody sign this guy?
Need
> an Agent, Tron? I'm sure you already have one, but thanks-a-million for
> sharing your talents. ENCORE!
>
> Oh, btw, I'm new here. Hi. :' >
>
> I'm denying every word of what you may dig up on me, man, it was a
set-up~!
> I swear to..
>
> *fade to lurk*
>
?
TF
Avi Norowitz
Here is what I have come up with since Monday.
> (b) Celtic wars involving humans, gods, and other supernatural
> beings (http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=360F86EE.1035%40york.ac.uk).
> Some Irish people today and most Irish people in the Middle Ages would
> believe in the events and say "those were my ancestors." Ideally
> though, I still need to find quotes from texts to demonstrate that
> many humans were present.
I believe Celtic mythology is still applicable, although not as strong as I
previously believed it was. The mythology records a sequence of conquests by
various races of gods and finally humans. The only conquest that would
comply with criteria 1, which is the last conquest where the supposed
ancestors of the Irish, the Milesians (or "Sons of Mil") defeat the god-race
Tuatha De Danaan and capture Ireland. This means rather than thousands of
years of human interactions with gods, it limits the close interaction to a
single war.
One other problem is that according to the _Book of Invasions_ (a
pseudo-history written and accepted as history in the Middle Ages and later;
relevent section is http://www.blackmask.com/books30c/conquestmil.htm) the
Tuatha De Danaan perform two miracles: they cause a storm sinking some
Milesian ships (and the Milesians magically stop the storm), and they made
the land invisible (but the Milesians were able to see it once again after
they circled it three times with their ships). The problem is that both of
these miracles can be attributable to natural causes. Unlucky storms can
occur, and luckily they can stop before they get too bad. A lot of fog can
make seeing an island very difficult. However, in Augusta Gregory's _Gods
and Fighting Men_ (it's a translation of old Irish literature, although I
don't know what period it's from or how widely it was accepted;
http://www.blackmask.com/books28c/godsfightingcon.htm) it's added that the
Tuatha De Danaan magically hid themselves inside the hills (fairy mounds)
after they were defeated. This seems like a somewhat better example of a
specific large-scale supernatural event that occurred, although it is not
completely free from problems either.
In any case, the _Book of Invasions_ indeed says that "they collected their
warriors and their men of valor from every place where they were, through
the lands and the districts," so I believe the population is sufficient.
(4) So, regarding the Celtic example, what I'm still looking for is:
(d) Additional contact that the Milesians had with races of gods, prior
to or after this incident.
(e) Additional miracles that a considerable amount of the Milesians
witnessed, in this conquest or a different event.
(f) Something that will clearly demonstrate that the Tuatha De Danaan
were not simply humans that the Milesians mistook for gods. Perhaps a
description of what the typical Tuatha De Danaan looks like would be
helpful. Marie-Louise Sjoestedt gives some bizarre descriptions of gods her
book _Celtic Gods and Heroes_, but I don't recall if she offers a
description of the typical Tuatha De Danaan (perhaps each of them look
different). I will have to look at the book again.
Thanks.
Avi Norowitz
though, do these books give examples of supernatural elaborations of natural
events?
"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
news:pk05uuco2epmlju0g...@4ax.com...
Avi Norowitz
mind are whether the figure of 70,000 is accurate
(http://www.astrodatabank.com/NM/FatimaMiracle.htm), how much of the people
there believed it happened (this may be impossible to determine), and
whether there is a considerable amount of people today who would claim that
people there were their ancestors and witnessed it.
I will look into it. Thanks.
"Morpheus" <car...@miskatonic.edu> wrote in message
news:jyLE9.19250$H67....@tor-nn1.netcom.ca...
Sollers
demoted one book from this shelf to straight archaeology. May I draw your
attention to Stephen Oppenheimer's "Eden in the East"? I think this may be
exactly what you are looking for - where he doesn't tell the story he tells
you where to find it.
"Avi Norowitz" <use...@ulag.net> wrote in message
news:e6dfe776.02112...@posting.google.com...
Eric Stevens
Eric Stevens
wrote:
>Thanks, I will see if I can get a hold of these books. Just to clarify
>though, do these books give examples of supernatural elaborations of natural
>events?
>
>"Eric Stevens" <eric.s...@sum.co.nz> wrote in message
>news:pk05uuco2epmlju0g...@4ax.com...
>> On 25 Nov 2002 11:08:25 -0800, use...@ulag.net (Avi Norowitz) wrote:
>>
>> For an entirely different approach to such myths I suggest you read
>>
>> Exodus to Arthur - Catastrophic Encounters with Comets
>> Mike Baillie (Queens University Dublin) 1999
>> ISBN 0 7134 8352 0
For an idea of Baillie's thinking, see
http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/tionol/baillie02.pdf for an
example of how his views apply to the Irish. He touches on a wide
range of myths and legends in his book
>>
>> As a follow up, some of the (now slightly dated) material in the
>> Proceedings of the Second SIS Cambridge Conference, British
>> Archaeological Reports -S728, 1998. "Natural Catastrophes During
>> Bronze Age Civilisations: Archaeological, geological, astronomical and
>> cultural perspectives" http://www.knowledge.co.uk/sis/cambproc.htm -
>> may be relevant.
Possibly relevant abstracts for the second URL include that of Bruce
Masse whose views appear relavant to anumber of legends (including the
flood :-) http://www.knowledge.co.uk/sis/abstract/masse.htm
Also http://www.knowledge.co.uk/sis/abstract/heinsohn.htm and
http://www.knowledge.co.uk/sis/abstract/panken.htm and possibly
http://www.knowledge.co.uk/sis/abstract/panken.htm
You will find Mike Baillie in there also at
http://www.knowledge.co.uk/sis/abstract/baillie.htm
Eric Stevens
Hasan Murtaza
Ummayad caliphs provide an unpleasant example. Yazid, the 2nd Ummayad
caliph, spread the story in Damascus Syria (from where he ruled) that he was
from the family of the Prophet Muhammad, and he was a true Muslim...and that
his family was responsible for spreading Islam and stuff like that. People
believed him because he was from Arabia, and his father had been king before
him, and he might have been related to Prophet Muhammad somehow (6 or 7
levels up the family tree.) Really though they had opposed Islam all the
way and only got let off because Muhammad gave a general amnesty to all his
enemies in Mecca when he took over the city.
Heres part of the story which is tragic, ... which shias never let
themselves forget even after 1300 years (like people never forgetting the
holocaust... or any of their important old myths)
Meanwhile the real grandson of the Prophet was refusing to pledge allegiance
to Yazid. Yazid then spread the word that the grandson (named Hussain) was
a rebel and pretender to the throne and truying to deprive him of his real
right to rule and crap like that. So they massacred the grandson and almost
all his family and supporters and imprisoned the women survivors for 1 year.
So this story has a plot wherein the Ummayads 1. witnessed the rise of Islam
2. claimed to be a part of it 3. claimed to be running the show 4. stole the
show .
The next Muslim dynasties did the same thing...from Abbasids (who claimed
power b/c they were descended from the Prophets uncle...but neglected those
who were really descended from him) and the Fatimids (who were descended
from the prophet, but they did not treat other peoples who had the same
claim well.)
"Avi Norowitz" <use...@ulag.net> wrote in message
news:e6dfe776.02112...@posting.google.com...
Hasan Murtaza
The people related to the Israelites are the Ishmaelites. Callin them Arab
is too general.
Hasan
"Hasan Murtaza" <syed_hasa...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:bdxG9.194400$oRV.1...@news04.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> The Quran mentions something about the Israelites, the 'sister peoples' to
> the Arabs: it mentions that they are descended from the people who were
> saved with Noah in the flood.
>