Death penalty
Gail Hamiton
offend me. I live in Australia where back in 1996 in Port Arthut,
Tasmania, Martin Bryant lost the plot with a semi-automatic and shot
17 people dead. What is oofensive is that he is serving 17 life
sentences in Tasmania at a cost of over 200.000 a year to the
taxpayers in this country, another case 7 men in the outer western
suburbs of Sydney pack raped and murdered a lady in 1989, she was
pregnant and left behind a small family, another one not far from
where I live 2 young girls were raped and murdered they were 7 and 8
respectively. My granmother was attacked in her own home by 3 really
big heroes, she is now in hospital with mutiple fractures, she is 82
and was not in the best health to start with.
Anyone who wants the death penalty abolished, I wonder about the
mentality ofthese people andwonder arethey just as bad as the
ofenders. Any state in America that has the death penalty keep it, we
certainly need it here in Australia, we are pissed of at our taxes
which are huge keeping this trash alive, the problem with the jails in
Australia is they are like 5 star hotels and I cannot justify my taxes
which I taxed at 60cents in the dollar keeping this rubish alive.
incubus
"Gail Hamiton" <gail.ha...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com...
At last. A serious post on here tonight worth reading. The abolitionists
are not evil people. They respect all life and believe that as all were
created equal and that they stay that way. They can't overlook the "human
rights" issues questioned by the death penalty. Unlike you, I and several
others on this group, they fail to regard the "human rights" of the victims
of the murderers or perhaps they are so blinkered by the human rights
movement that they respect the rights of murderers to live. Personally I do
not believe all murderers should die but the nasty ones like the ones you
mentioned should.
Jürgen
Gail Hamiton schrieb in Nachricht
<1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com>...
The death penalty in the US is WAY, WAY more expensive than to put the
condemned alternatively in prison for their lives.
J.
A Planet Visitor
"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message news:ak77m5$2tq$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
I wouldn't have it any other way. Life is not cheap.
PV
> J.
>
>
>
Jürgen
A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht ...
No, no, Sir. Life is cheap. Death is what is not cheap.
J.
JIGSAW1695
From: gail.ha...@bigpond.com (Gail Hamiton)
Date: 8/23/2002 4:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time
Message-id: <1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com>
===============================
Yea, but Gail, you have your own personal weapons to protect you and your
loved ones, Dont you? Gail? You have the abality and right to protect your own
family.
As long as you have a weapon to defend yourself, your are a free person.
Whoops..... sorry. I forgot that you live in Australia. Good luck. Your going
to need it.
Jigsaw
A Planet Visitor
"JIGSAW1695" <jigsa...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020824022809...@mb-ms.aol.com...
PV
>
> Jigsaw
>
A Planet Visitor
"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message news:ak78rf$rk2$03$1...@news.t-online.com...
Only the murderer believes life is cheap. Society is willing to
pay if it finds it reaches the best effort of not executing an
innocent.
PV
> J.
>
>
>
incubus
expense is irrelevent. These people have commited a mortal crime and should
die.
>
> J.
>
>
incubus
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
news:OSF99.276807$s8.50...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
hear hear
>
> PV
>
> > J.
> >
> >
> >
>
Jürgen
Nope. The millions spent for any single execution are not spent for a
reasonable defense. This costs have to afford private supporters and pro
bono lawyers. The states' millions are explicitely spent for to pursue the
death of a human.
J.
H. Neary
Well Jigsaw, the number of weapons in circulation certainly keep the
murder rate down in the US don't they.
Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about Gail if I were you.
She is obviously so envious of the states treatment of prisoners that
she will book in for a few years at the prison, to avail herself of
some of the luxury oin offer.
HN
Regards
Hugh Neary
(Please remove "crudbuster" to reply direct
incubus
"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message
news:slrnamf1vg.1efb....@lievre.voute.net...
> Le Sat, 24 Aug 2002 08:54:49 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a
écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> The death penalty in the US is WAY, WAY more expensive than to put the
> >> condemned alternatively in prison for their lives.
>
> > expense is irrelevent. These people have commited a mortal crime and
should
> > die.
>
deathies
> start to whine about how your 'tax dollars' (or 'pounds', in your case)
are
> being spent to keep them in gaol.
Gaol? what is gaol?
>
> I need to check my copy of _The OED_ to see if 'deathie' is a synonym
> for 'hypocrite' ...
deathie isn't even in mine
hypocrite is, and I fail to see the relevance.
I would rather live in a society pf hypocrites than in a society where the
only criminals are the victims and the only crimes are justice or defending
yourselves. Why don't you abolitionists just go for legalising murder, rape,
torture and robbery. in fact, let's have a party and legalise all crime.
Let's all allow you to do anything except look after yourself then its
prison for you. What's wrong with you abolitionists?
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
> Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
> desmond @ zeouane.org
> http: // www . zeouane . org
incubus
> Le Sat, 24 Aug 2002 14:50:13 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a
écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> > Gaol? what is gaol?
>
> Ask LDB to copy-and-paste it from _The OED_, and then claim that he
> knew the word all along ...
>
> { remainder of semi-literate balderdash snipped }
>
no. I am asking you what it means
A Planet Visitor
"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message news:ak7lib$ni1$04$1...@news.t-online.com...
Rubbish. Were no consideration given to spending money on the
defense, none of those aspects would exist. And as in China, a
finding of guilty would cost the state one bullet (often charged to
the family of the murderer).
PV
>
> J.
>
>
>
incubus
> Le Sat, 24 Aug 2002 17:05:18 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a
écrit :
>
> >> > Gaol? what is gaol?
>
> >> Ask LDB to copy-and-paste it from _The OED_, and then claim that he
> >> knew the word all along ...
>
>
>
> Better ?
yes. Thank you
A Planet Visitor
> Le Sat, 24 Aug 2002 06:13:35 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> The death penalty in the US is WAY, WAY more expensive than to put the
> >> condemned alternatively in prison for their lives.
>
> > I wouldn't have it any other way. Life is not cheap.
>
>
Having nothing to do with the DP. But much to do with the
disenfranchisement of that race, leading to their own perception
that they have little value. In fact, Blacks are seven times more
likely than Whites to be homicide victims, and eight times more
likely than Whites to commit homicides. Eighty-five percent of
White murder victims were murdered by Whites, and 94% of
Black victims were murdered by Blacks.
PV
> --
> Desmond Coughlan |EVEN SATAN KNOWS
|AND LIFTS HIS BROW IN WONDER AT
|THE EVIL DESI SHOWS
A Planet Visitor
>
> Ask LDB to copy-and-paste it from _The OED_, and then claim that he
> knew the word all along ...
>
the meaning of the Greek Goddess Apate, or even have the intellectual
ability to find that meaning. See ==
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/a/apate.html
<pathetic pedantic whine clipped>
A Planet Visitor
> Le Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:48:26 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
>
> >> > Gaol? what is gaol?
>
> >> Ask LDB to copy-and-paste it from _The OED_, and then claim that he
> >> knew the word all along ...
>
> > Or better still, ask 'Uncle Tom' to explain why he did not know of
>
> telling all of AADP what it meant ... whilst everyone here knows
> what 'LDB' means ... and you're being pilloried every day for that
> one.
>
You're ALL those things, FDP. Trying to place you in one particular
disgusting basket does a disservice to our species.
> *snigger*
An... that only 'spank my donkey,' at work.
A Planet Visitor
> Le Sat, 24 Aug 2002 17:35:53 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
>
> >> >> The death penalty in the US is WAY, WAY more expensive than to put the
> >> >> condemned alternatively in prison for their lives.
>
> >> > I wouldn't have it any other way. Life is not cheap.
>
> >> Unless you're black, of course ...
>
> > Having nothing to do with the DP. But much to do with the
> > disenfranchisement of that race, leading to their own perception
> > that they have little value. In fact, Blacks are seven times more
> > likely than Whites to be homicide victims, and eight times more
> > likely than Whites to commit homicides. Eighty-five percent of
> > White murder victims were murdered by Whites, and 94% of
> > Black victims were murdered by Blacks.
>
> to be sentenced to death, than those who murder blacks.
>
If that is true, then my statistics show an opposite effect to the
DP, then any belief that it is racist in respect to Black executions.
Since Blacks are seven times more likely than Whites to be homicide
victims, and 94% of those homicides are committed by Blacks. Those
Black murderers on Black victims are less likely to receive the DP
then Blacks who commit murders on Whites. Actually, it would
demonstrate that Blacks are LESS likely to receive the DP in respect
to the totality of murders they commit. Blacks murder Blacks at
a horrendous rate, and that can be attributed to racism, and
injustice in society, which creates a feeling of worthlessness by
Blacks themselves, there's hardly any denying this. But this
certainly cannot be attributed to the DP itself. It is a problem
that society must solve, totally separate from the use of the DP
for murderers. So, when it comes to the DP, Blacks are LESS likely
to receive the DP since almost all their murders are committed
against other Blacks, and those DO NOT result in the DP.
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:26:25 +0000
>
>Le Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:03:50 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> What happened to 'FDP' ? Oh, that's right ... you had to keep
>>> telling all of AADP what it meant ... whilst everyone here knows
>>> what 'LDB' means ... and you're being pilloried every day for that
>>> one.
>
>> You're ALL those things, FDP.
>
>All _what_ things ... sorry, thing's ... LDB ? You're ... sorry, your ...
>not having a very good day today, but do you have your illiteracy reach
>such magnificent proportions ? Why not e-mail the 'select few', and ask
>them to pay for an all-expenses trip to 'Newfound' (sic) ? I'm sure that
>it's ... sorry, its ... oh, but wait ... that's 'not correct punctuation,
>as well [sic] ...'
>
>*chortle*
>
>{ snip }
>
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
>Path:
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uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:26:25 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 28
>Message-ID: <slrnamg5h0.1fj9....@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com>
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>
Desi is afraid of his own words! He can be reached at des...@noos.fr or
des...@zeouane.org.
As everyone knows, only COWARDS forge posts yet don't allow their own to be
archived!
Now Desi, Tell us about the Baltimore County police.
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 20:45:56 +0000
>
>Le Sat, 24 Aug 2002 17:35:53 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a
>écrit :
>
>>> >> The death penalty in the US is WAY, WAY more expensive than to put the
>>> >> condemned alternatively in prison for their lives.
>
>>> > I wouldn't have it any other way. Life is not cheap.
>
>>> Unless you're black, of course ...
>
>> Having nothing to do with the DP. But much to do with the
>> disenfranchisement of that race, leading to their own perception
>> that they have little value. In fact, Blacks are seven times more
>> likely than Whites to be homicide victims, and eight times more
>> likely than Whites to commit homicides. Eighty-five percent of
>> White murder victims were murdered by Whites, and 94% of
>> Black victims were murdered by Blacks.
>
>Whereas those who murder whites, are around 3.5 times more likely
>to be sentenced to death, than those who murder blacks.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 20:45:56 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 25
>Message-ID: <slrnamfs44.1fj9....@lievre.voute.net>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 16:08:13 +0000
>
>Le Sat, 24 Aug 2002 17:05:18 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a écrit :
>
>
>>> > Gaol? what is gaol?
>
>>> Ask LDB to copy-and-paste it from _The OED_, and then claim that he
>>> knew the word all along ...
>
>> no. I am asking you what it means
>
>'Jail'. 'Prison'. 'Pokey'.
>
>Better ?
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 16:08:13 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 18
>Message-ID: <slrnamfbrd.1ei8....@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 20:03:40 +0000
>
>Le Sat, 24 Aug 2002 18:48:26 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a
>écrit :
>
>>> > Gaol? what is gaol?
>
>>> Ask LDB to copy-and-paste it from _The OED_, and then claim that he
>>> knew the word all along ...
>
>> Or better still, ask 'Uncle Tom' to explain why he did not know of
>
>What happened to 'FDP' ? Oh, that's right ... you had to keep
>telling all of AADP what it meant ... whilst everyone here knows
>what 'LDB' means ... and you're being pilloried every day for that
>one.
>
>*snigger*
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 20:03:40 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 21
>Message-ID: <slrnamfpks.1feg....@lievre.voute.net>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:52:23 +0000
>
>Le Sat, 24 Aug 2002 14:50:13 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>> Gaol? what is gaol?
>
>Ask LDB to copy-and-paste it from _The OED_, and then claim that he
>knew the word all along ...
>
>{ remainder of semi-literate balderdash snipped }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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os.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 15:52:23 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 16
>Message-ID: <slrnamfatn.1ei8....@lievre.voute.net>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:18:14 +0000
>
>Le Sat, 24 Aug 2002 06:13:35 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> The death penalty in the US is WAY, WAY more expensive than to put the
>>> condemned alternatively in prison for their lives.
>
>> I wouldn't have it any other way. Life is not cheap.
>
>Unless you're black, of course ...
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:18:14 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 16
>Message-ID: <slrnamf1sm.1efb....@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:19:44 +0000
>
>Le Sat, 24 Aug 2002 08:54:49 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> The death penalty in the US is WAY, WAY more expensive than to put the
>>> condemned alternatively in prison for their lives.
>
>> expense is irrelevent. These people have commited a mortal crime and should
>> die.
>
>*snort* ... yeah, expense is 'irrelevent', until you and your fellow deathies
>start to whine about how your 'tax dollars' (or 'pounds', in your case) are
>being spent to keep them in gaol.
>
>I need to check my copy of _The OED_ to see if 'deathie' is a synonym
>for 'hypocrite' ...
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 13:19:44 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 22
>Message-ID: <slrnamf1vg.1efb....@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com>
><ak77m5$2tq$00$1...@news.t-online.com>
><yZG99.57132$IU4.1...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net>
A Planet Visitor
> Le Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:03:50 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> What happened to 'FDP' ? Oh, that's right ... you had to keep
> >> telling all of AADP what it meant ... whilst everyone here knows
> >> what 'LDB' means ... and you're being pilloried every day for that
> >> one.
>
> > You're ALL those things, FDP.
>
> not having a very good day today, but do you have your illiteracy reach
> such magnificent proportions ? Why not e-mail the 'select few', and ask
> them to pay for an all-expenses trip to 'Newfound' (sic) ? I'm sure that
> it's ... sorry, its ... oh, but wait ... that's 'not correct punctuation,
> as well [sic] ...'
>
> *chortle*
>
sorry, you're.... 'animal imitations.'
PV
> { snip }
incubus
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
>
> "Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message
> news:slrnamg5h0.1fj9....@lievre.voute.net...
> > Le Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:03:50 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
a écrit :
> >
> > { snip }
> >
> > >> What happened to 'FDP' ? Oh, that's right ... you had to keep
> > >> telling all of AADP what it meant ... whilst everyone here knows
> > >> what 'LDB' means ... and you're being pilloried every day for that
> > >> one.
> >
> > > You're ALL those things, FDP.
> >
> > All _what_ things ... sorry, thing's ... LDB ? You're ... sorry, your
...
> > not having a very good day today, but do you have your illiteracy reach
> > such magnificent proportions ? Why not e-mail the 'select few', and ask
> > them to pay for an all-expenses trip to 'Newfound' (sic) ? I'm sure
that
> > it's ... sorry, its ... oh, but wait ... that's 'not correct
punctuation,
> > as well [sic] ...'
> >
> > *chortle*
> >
> Let me guess... that's the 'pig squeal' we've been looking for in your...
> sorry, you're.... 'animal imitations.'
no it's "your" ;-)
Jürgen
A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht
.................which I taxed at 60cents in the dollar keeping this rubish
alive.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The death penalty in the US is WAY, WAY more expensive than to put
the
>> >> >> condemned alternatively in prison for their lives.
>> >> >
>> >> >I wouldn't have it any other way. Life is not cheap.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> No, no, Sir. Life is cheap. Death is what is not cheap.
>> >
>> >Only the murderer believes life is cheap. Society is willing to
>> >pay if it finds it reaches the best effort of not executing an
>> >innocent.
>> >
>>
>> Nope. The millions spent for any single execution are not spent for a
>> reasonable defense. This costs have to afford private supporters and pro
>> bono lawyers. The states' millions are explicitely spent for to pursue
the
>> death of a human.
>
>Rubbish. Were no consideration given to spending money on the
>defense, none of those aspects would exist. And as in China, a
>finding of guilty would cost the state one bullet (often charged to
>the family of the murderer).
>
Tell me, did you ever in your life regard any particular case of a death row
inmate in the US, and did you establish who is paying the defense for their
job?
J.
incubus
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
that i would find extremely sick. The family of the murderer have done
nothing wrong ans should not be expected to pay for the execution or thier
kin. I would tell the government to go swivel if they expected me to pay for
the execution of one of my family members
>
> PV
>
> >
> > J.
> >
> >
> >
>
incubus
> Le Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:04:36 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a
écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> Rubbish. Were no consideration given to spending money on the
> >> defense, none of those aspects would exist. And as in China, a
> >> finding of guilty would cost the state one bullet (often charged to
> >> the family of the murderer).
>
> > that i would find extremely sick. The family of the murderer have done
> > nothing wrong ans should not be expected to pay for the execution or
thier
> > kin. I would tell the government to go swivel if they expected me to pay
for
> > the execution of one of my family members
>
> That doesn't stop the criminal justice system from 'punishing' them, by
> destroying their loved ones. Or are you trying to claim that it's OK
> to kill their sons, daughters, husbands, but not OK to scrounge £1.50
> off them, for a bullet ?
yep. That's exactly what I am saying. The family of the killer is an
innocent entity. The killer is not
>
> At the same time, don't deathies often claim that the fate of the
> relatives of an 'executee', is the fault of the latter ? By this
> reasoning, it would be acceptable to take the condemned's relatives,
> and torture them to death, too. After all, they 'only have the murderer
> to blame'.
>
> Right, incubus ..?
you are joking, right Desi?
Richard J.
Desmond Coughlan wrote:
>
> Le Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:04:36 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> Rubbish. Were no consideration given to spending money on the
> >> defense, none of those aspects would exist. And as in China, a
> >> finding of guilty would cost the state one bullet (often charged to
> >> the family of the murderer).
>
> > that i would find extremely sick. The family of the murderer have done
> > nothing wrong ans should not be expected to pay for the execution or thier
> > kin. I would tell the government to go swivel if they expected me to pay for
> > the execution of one of my family members
>
> The families of the condemned have rarely done anything 'wrong', incubus.
> That doesn't stop the criminal justice system from 'punishing' them, by
> destroying their loved ones. Or are you trying to claim that it's OK
> to kill their sons, daughters, husbands, but not OK to scrounge £1.50
> off them, for a bullet ?
>
> At the same time, don't deathies often claim that the fate of the
> relatives of an 'executee', is the fault of the latter ? By this
> reasoning, it would be acceptable to take the condemned's relatives,
> and torture them to death, too. After all, they 'only have the murderer
> to blame'.
>
> Right, incubus ..?
That isn't exactly correct, Desmond. The whole sorry mess of murder,
trial, and execution is the direst result of one person's act, the
murderer. No one else is responsible.
You and other abolitionist seem to blame the state for the family's
pain. Whom do you blame for the pain and shame of having a loved one
murder someone when they get life imprisonment? Or do you think there
is no familial shame associated with being related to a murderer?
I personally know the families of five different murderers. I have met
several other families of murderers. The families of murderers seem to
fall into one of four categories of acceptance or denial. One type
feels extreme shame and pain that their loved one took the life of
someone to satisfy their own personal needs or urges. They feel they
are somehow at fault for being related to such a person.
The second type of family accepts that the murderer is guilty, and
apologizes for their act, but realizes their act is not necessarily
reflective of them. I suspect this group fought many battles to try to
save their loved one from this type of behavior long before the actual
act occurred and feel they did all they could humanly do. In the couple
of cases like this I personally know, I agree with them.
The third category is in complete denial, continually claiming innocence
in the face of all evidence contrary to their beliefs. Their denial
seems to have at its root so great a shame associated with a murdering
relative, that they will never accept any chance their loved one is
actually guilty.
The fourth type doesn't deny the murderer's guilt, but wants to blame
the murder on someone other than their loved one. This is also a form
of denial. That way they always have some excuse for their murdering
relative. It's always the friends he or she was with, or society, or
whites, or blacks, etc. etc. who actually are to blame. Little Johnny
or Jane are just followers.
The bottom line is this, Desmond. If the murderer chooses not to take
the life of a fellow human being, or willfully to place themselves in a
situation leading to capital murder, their families or no one else
suffers.
Teflon
incubus
> Le Sun, 25 Aug 2002 17:24:05 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a
écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> The families of the condemned have rarely done anything 'wrong',
incubus.
> >> That doesn't stop the criminal justice system from 'punishing' them, by
> >> destroying their loved ones. Or are you trying to claim that it's OK
> >> to kill their sons, daughters, husbands, but not OK to scrounge £1.50
> >> off them, for a bullet ?
>
> > yep. That's exactly what I am saying. The family of the killer is an
> > innocent entity. The killer is not
>
> affecting their loved ones, incubus.
You can't nor can you imprison someone without affecting thier family. It's
a sad side effect justice but it is the lesser of two evils
>To a mother, whether her son is
> guilty or not of murder, is irrelevant. She loves him, every bit as
> much as the mother of the murder victim. She does not want him to die,
> yet she will be deprived of her son, and the only 'excuse' given to her,
> will be, 'It's his fault.' Will that help her to come to terms with her
> grief ?
Oh i agree with you. It is tragic but sadly unavoidable. bear in mind also
that at least the family of the murder victim can find some peace
>
> Murder creates one set of 'victims and loved ones'. The death penalty
> creates a second set.
No. Murder creates them both
>
> >> At the same time, don't deathies often claim that the fate of the
> >> relatives of an 'executee', is the fault of the latter ? By this
> >> reasoning, it would be acceptable to take the condemned's relatives,
> >> and torture them to death, too. After all, they 'only have the
murderer
> >> to blame'.
> >>
> >> Right, incubus ..?
>
> > you are joking, right Desi?
>
> Facetiousness, incubus. Think about it.
I already have, which is why I am a deathie
A Planet Visitor
"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message news:akahn6$m6j$01$1...@news.t-online.com...
independent auditor to be assigned to certify that the money spent
in prosecution and defense remain reasonably balanced. I suggested
this is a post to Mr. D. "Murderers are scum," 2002-02-21
22:14:41 PST...and one to 10wheels - "Continuation of dialog with
Planet Visitor," 2000-12-18 16:22:04 PST. I think I suggested it
in a post to you as well.
In my mind, this would not be difficult to do in the case of the
prosecution, because they DO operate under budgetary constraints
that are fully visible. They CANNOT spend more than exists on
the books, without digging into their own personal pocket. It is
not that easy on the side of the defense. But if the prosecution
were held ACCOUNTABLE for how much it spends (which COULD
be determined), then the state could allocate funds to the defense
as well, provided the defendant was unable to match the funds used
by the state in prosecution.
So in answer to your question -- Yes, I have concerned myself
with who is paying for the defense.
PV
> J.
>
>
>
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 15:23:41 +0000
>
>Le Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:04:36 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Rubbish. Were no consideration given to spending money on the
>>> defense, none of those aspects would exist. And as in China, a
>>> finding of guilty would cost the state one bullet (often charged to
>>> the family of the murderer).
>
>> that i would find extremely sick. The family of the murderer have done
>> nothing wrong ans should not be expected to pay for the execution or thier
>> kin. I would tell the government to go swivel if they expected me to pay
>for
>> the execution of one of my family members
>
>The families of the condemned have rarely done anything 'wrong', incubus.
>That doesn't stop the criminal justice system from 'punishing' them, by
>destroying their loved ones. Or are you trying to claim that it's OK
>to kill their sons, daughters, husbands, but not OK to scrounge £1.50
>off them, for a bullet ?
>
>At the same time, don't deathies often claim that the fate of the
>relatives of an 'executee', is the fault of the latter ? By this
>reasoning, it would be acceptable to take the condemned's relatives,
>and torture them to death, too. After all, they 'only have the murderer
>to blame'.
>
>Right, incubus ..?
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 15:23:41 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 33
>Message-ID: <slrnamhtjr.1i7o....@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 16:47:41 +0000
>
>Le Sun, 25 Aug 2002 17:24:05 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> The families of the condemned have rarely done anything 'wrong', incubus.
>>> That doesn't stop the criminal justice system from 'punishing' them, by
>>> destroying their loved ones. Or are you trying to claim that it's OK
>>> to kill their sons, daughters, husbands, but not OK to scrounge £1.50
>>> off them, for a bullet ?
>
>> yep. That's exactly what I am saying. The family of the killer is an
>> innocent entity. The killer is not
>
>Perhaps you could tell me how it is possible to kill someone, without
>affecting their loved ones, incubus. To a mother, whether her son is
>guilty or not of murder, is irrelevant. She loves him, every bit as
>much as the mother of the murder victim. She does not want him to die,
>yet she will be deprived of her son, and the only 'excuse' given to her,
>will be, 'It's his fault.' Will that help her to come to terms with her
>grief ?
>
>Murder creates one set of 'victims and loved ones'. The death penalty
>creates a second set.
>
>>> At the same time, don't deathies often claim that the fate of the
>>> relatives of an 'executee', is the fault of the latter ? By this
>>> reasoning, it would be acceptable to take the condemned's relatives,
>>> and torture them to death, too. After all, they 'only have the murderer
>>> to blame'.
>>>
>>> Right, incubus ..?
>
>> you are joking, right Desi?
>
>Facetiousness, incubus. Think about it.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 16:47:41 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 41
>Message-ID: <slrnami2hc.1ipd....@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com>
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Cerberus
"Gail Hamiton" <gail.ha...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com...
> I have read some rubbish before, but some of the comment I have read
> offend me. I live in Australia where back in 1996 in Port Arthut,
> Tasmania, Martin Bryant lost the plot with a semi-automatic and shot
> 17 people dead. What is oofensive is that he is serving 17 life
> sentences in Tasmania at a cost of over 200.000 a year to the
> taxpayers in this country, another case 7 men in the outer western
> suburbs of Sydney pack raped and murdered a lady in 1989, she was
> pregnant and left behind a small family, another one not far from
> where I live 2 young girls were raped and murdered they were 7 and 8
> respectively. My granmother was attacked in her own home by 3 really
> big heroes, she is now in hospital with mutiple fractures, she is 82
> and was not in the best health to start with.
> Anyone who wants the death penalty abolished, I wonder about the
> mentality ofthese people andwonder arethey just as bad as the
> ofenders. Any state in America that has the death penalty keep it, we
> certainly need it here in Australia, we are pissed of at our taxes
> which are huge keeping this trash alive, the problem with the jails in
> Australia is they are like 5 star hotels and I cannot justify my taxes
Just for the record dear reader, Martin Bryant killed 35 people and
seriously injured 19 more.
The initial correspondent is very badly informed, and her obvious motivation
for this post is that "3 heroes" beat up her grandmother. She obviously
doesn't work either as she seriously misstates the maximum rate of income
tax in OZ, which BTW is 48 cents in the dollar plus Medicare levy. That rate
applies only to income earned that is greater than $60,000.00. with
graduated amounts up to that figure.
The only thing legitimate about this post is her email address.Which I am
sure that the slimy lurkers who inhabit the nether regions of this NG have
noted. If you listen hard you can hear the rustling of their wings as they
scurry about.
Deary deary me. What a dickhead.
WooF w00f WooF
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Jürgen
A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht
In other words, you saw yourself exactly what I stated above, i.e. that the
states' money is grossly spent for the prosecution and at best an
alibi-amount for the defense, and made some suggestions.
That may honor you, it however does not change the fact that contemporarily
millions are spent for the death of a human. Not for the life.
>
>In my mind, this would not be difficult to do in the case of the
>prosecution, because they DO operate under budgetary constraints
>that are fully visible. They CANNOT spend more than exists on
>the books, without digging into their own personal pocket. It is
>not that easy on the side of the defense. But if the prosecution
>were held ACCOUNTABLE for how much it spends (which COULD
>be determined), then the state could allocate funds to the defense
>as well, provided the defendant was unable to match the funds used
>by the state in prosecution.
>
>So in answer to your question -- Yes, I have concerned myself
>with who is paying for the defense.
>
...and therefore you establish that the state *could* allocate some funds.
Again: The reality is that private supporters are ought to pay for the
defense of almost any death row inmate, while the state affords huge amounts
exclusively to get the execution through.
J.
Richard J.
There are costs incurred in the death penalty which are regularly
figured in the amount the state spends that are really not spent for the
prosecution. The best such example I can think of is the automatic
appeals of ALL death penalty convictions. In addition to the first,
automatic appeal, each appeal subsequent to that time must have state
representation as well. As you have seen, these appeals, even in an
average death penalty case, take an inordinate amount of state capital.
It isn't that so much more money is spent on prosecution than defense,
but that capital murder trials, by the very nature of the crime, are
very expensive due to the safeguards, and the fact that two trials are
required in jury assigned penalty states.
>
> >
> >In my mind, this would not be difficult to do in the case of the
> >prosecution, because they DO operate under budgetary constraints
> >that are fully visible. They CANNOT spend more than exists on
> >the books, without digging into their own personal pocket. It is
> >not that easy on the side of the defense. But if the prosecution
> >were held ACCOUNTABLE for how much it spends (which COULD
> >be determined), then the state could allocate funds to the defense
> >as well, provided the defendant was unable to match the funds used
> >by the state in prosecution.
> >
> >So in answer to your question -- Yes, I have concerned myself
> >with who is paying for the defense.
> >
>
> ...and therefore you establish that the state *could* allocate some funds.
> Again: The reality is that private supporters are ought to pay for the
> defense of almost any death row inmate, while the state affords huge amounts
> exclusively to get the execution through.
What type of huge amounts, Jürgen? Number amounts per prosecution,
please.
--
Teflon
Jürgen
Richard J. schrieb in Nachricht <3D6A8545...@hotmail.com>...
<snip>
> >So in answer to your question -- Yes, I have concerned myself
> >with who is paying for the defense.
> >
>
> ...and therefore you establish that the state *could* allocate some funds.
> Again: The reality is that private supporters are ought to pay for the
> defense of almost any death row inmate, while the state affords huge
amounts
> exclusively to get the execution through.
What type of huge amounts, Jürgen? Number amounts per prosecution,
please.
***********************
Richard, it is known that Texas spends the exorbitant amount of ca. $2.500
for the defense in a death penalty case. This sum understands all inclusive,
as expenses for any investigations to do on behalf of the defendant (...wich
are most urgently necessary, since state's investigators have a clear
tendency to "overlook" anything what does not support their cause), and for
experts to counter prosecutoral witnesses (...like for instant a Dr. Death.
I well remember your nonchalant hint to the great options of the defense to
introduce and call ther own experts).
The prosecution can use the entire state's apparatus if deemed opportune.
Jürgen
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:59:59 +0000
>
>Le Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:03:51 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a
>écrit :
>{ snip }
>
>> If that is true, then my statistics show an opposite effect to the
>> DP, then any belief that it is racist in respect to Black executions.
>> Since Blacks are seven times more likely than Whites to be homicide
>> victims, and 94% of those homicides are committed by Blacks. Those
>> Black murderers on Black victims are less likely to receive the DP
>> then Blacks who commit murders on Whites. Actually, it would
>> demonstrate that Blacks are LESS likely to receive the DP in respect
>> to the totality of murders they commit. Blacks murder Blacks at
>> a horrendous rate, and that can be attributed to racism, and
>> injustice in society, which creates a feeling of worthlessness by
>> Blacks themselves, there's hardly any denying this. But this
>> certainly cannot be attributed to the DP itself. It is a problem
>> that society must solve, totally separate from the use of the DP
>> for murderers. So, when it comes to the DP, Blacks are LESS likely
>> to receive the DP since almost all their murders are committed
>> against other Blacks, and those DO NOT result in the DP.
>
>LOL ... wonderful ! On Planet PV, the fact that the murderer of a white
>person receives a harsher sentence than the murderer of a black person,
>is 'proof', that there is no racism in the application of the death
>sentence !
>
>*guffaw!!!* Really, ROTFLMAO ... that one won't be forgotten in a hurrty
>(quick, my finger hit the 't' key !! The list, LDB !! The list !!!),
>much like 'O.J. Simpson was convicted of murder in a civil court', or
>even the 'Golden Moron' awardwinner, 'Others are posting to others' ...
>
>ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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hcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 17:59:59 +0000
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John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
>
> "Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message
> news:slrnamfs44.1fj9....@lievre.voute.net...
>
> >
snip
> If that is true, then my statistics show an opposite effect to the
> DP, then any belief that it is racist in respect to Black executions.
> Since Blacks are seven times more likely than Whites to be homicide
> victims, and 94% of those homicides are committed by Blacks. Those
> Black murderers on Black victims are less likely to receive the DP
> then Blacks who commit murders on Whites. Actually, it would
> demonstrate that Blacks are LESS likely to receive the DP in respect
> to the totality of murders they commit
You have a lot of difficulty with this one, don't you PV?
Are you wifully missing the point or does it just escape from
you? What the above proves is that white American society
represented by its judicial system cares very little for the
the black murdered by his fellow black but cares a great
deal for the white murdered by a black. This is probably
the most painful example of discrimination left in American
society and is one of the most powerful reasons for getting
rid of the DP. I am quite sure that if the UK had not got
rid of the DP the same form of discrimination would exist
here. The police, the judges and the juries are predominantly
white and people, being what they are, would be prejudiced
against the coloured minority and that prejudice would
reveal itself in much the same way as it does in America.
Richard J.
And which official state document did you find the amount, Jürgen? I
don't question that you've seen that in print somewhere, I just want to
know the source.
--
Teflon
A Planet Visitor
> Le Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:03:51 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
> { snip }
>
> > If that is true, then my statistics show an opposite effect to the
> > DP, then any belief that it is racist in respect to Black executions.
> > Since Blacks are seven times more likely than Whites to be homicide
> > victims, and 94% of those homicides are committed by Blacks. Those
> > Black murderers on Black victims are less likely to receive the DP
> > then Blacks who commit murders on Whites. Actually, it would
> > demonstrate that Blacks are LESS likely to receive the DP in respect
> > to the totality of murders they commit. Blacks murder Blacks at
> > a horrendous rate, and that can be attributed to racism, and
> > injustice in society, which creates a feeling of worthlessness by
> > Blacks themselves, there's hardly any denying this. But this
> > certainly cannot be attributed to the DP itself. It is a problem
> > that society must solve, totally separate from the use of the DP
> > for murderers. So, when it comes to the DP, Blacks are LESS likely
> > to receive the DP since almost all their murders are committed
> > against other Blacks, and those DO NOT result in the DP.
>
> person receives a harsher sentence than the murderer of a black person,
> is 'proof', that there is no racism in the application of the death
> sentence !
>
as to WHO is EXECUTED. Not WHO is MURDERED. There is
a certain gender bias to the DP, because fewer women are
executed per murder they commit, then with men. But there is
NO SUCH racism in EXECUTION of murderers based on the
race of the MURDERER. If you would call it 'racism,' because
possibly, more of ALL races are executed for murdering Whites
than for murdering Blacks, than it is a 'racism' that works in
FAVOR of the Black. Because BLACKS MURDER BLACKS
at an outrageous pace, compared to WHITES who murder Blacks.
And thus, far fewer of THOSE murderers are executed, simply
because they murdered BLACKS and not WHITES. And if that
is true, this suits me just fine, because 'racism' in the finding of
guilt for ALL crimes is certainly apparent, IMHO, when determining
the guilt/innocence of a Black.
So in effect, my perception, which certainly cannot be substantiated
in any precisely defined statistics, is that more Blacks are found
GUILTY of murder than are ACTUALLY guilty of murder, but LESS
Blacks are sentenced to the DP, simply because they murdered
Blacks rather than Whites. So in effect, in my personal opinion,
I see racism in the Justice System, but NOT in the DP. I know
math is difficult for you, but do try to follow along.
> *guffaw!!!*
Ah, yes... The 'crow hit by a thrown rock' imitation. How appropriate.
> Really, ROTFLMAO ... that one won't be forgotten in a hurrty
> (quick, my finger hit the 't' key !! The list, LDB !! The list !!!),
> much like 'O.J. Simpson was convicted of murder in a civil court', or
> even the 'Golden Moron' awardwinner, 'Others are posting to others' ...
>
Clearly, you lie. Since I never said that O.J. Simpson was 'convicted
of murder' in ANY court. And it's pathetic that you continue to stoop
so low. But also so typical of you. Your humiliation fits you like
a glove.
A Planet Visitor
"John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:lMAa9.4819$Dq4.1...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
>
> "A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
> news:rhU99.375132$XH.85...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
> >
> > "Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message
> > news:slrnamfs44.1fj9....@lievre.voute.net...
> >
> > >
>
> snip
> > If that is true, then my statistics show an opposite effect to the
> > DP, then any belief that it is racist in respect to Black executions.
> > Since Blacks are seven times more likely than Whites to be homicide
> > victims, and 94% of those homicides are committed by Blacks. Those
> > Black murderers on Black victims are less likely to receive the DP
> > then Blacks who commit murders on Whites. Actually, it would
> > demonstrate that Blacks are LESS likely to receive the DP in respect
> > to the totality of murders they commit
>
> You have a lot of difficulty with this one, don't you PV?
Not at all. I rather like the argument, since it seems to
support two points of mine. 1) the Justice system is
racist in respect to finding more Blacks guilty of crimes
than are ACTUALLY guilty. 2) The DP is biased in
FAVOR of the Black since those 'of any race' who
murder Blacks are not as likely to receive the DP. And
Blacks murder Blacks at a 7 or 8 to 1 ratio to Whites
who murder Blacks. While the number of Blacks who
murder Whites, is less than the number of Whites who
murder Whites. And the conclusion is that we will NOT
solve ANYTHING in respect to racism by abolishing the
DP. We will only FEEL GOOD about ourselves, in
hypocrisy, as we send more Blacks to prison for crimes
they didn't commit. Fix the damn problem... don't try
to cover it up with some cosmetic belief that we've
solved anything.
> Are you wifully missing the point or does it just escape from
> you? What the above proves is that white American society
> represented by its judicial system cares very little for the
> the black murdered by his fellow black but cares a great
> deal for the white murdered by a black.
Bullshit. That is NOT what is implied. You have misstated
the conclusion completely. If there IS any conclusion, it
is that the Justice System cares more about a White murdered
by ANYONE, then it does about a Black murdered by
ANYONE. That's quite different from your statement. Given
the premise that those who murder Whites are more likely
to receive the DP than those who murder Blacks (still a very
iffy theory, but for the sake of argument), it says NOTHING
about Whites murdered by Blacks. It says Whites murdered
by ANY RACE. The percentage of Whites who murder
Whites and are executed and Blacks who murder Whites
and are executed are the SAME in relation to the total
number of those murders committed. There is no
racism within the concept of those who murder White.
Now...It is ONLY (for the sake of argument) presumed that
ALL those who murder Whites are more likely to receive
the DP than ALL those who murder Blacks. But since
Blacks murder Blacks at seven or eight times the rate they
murder Whites, it is a simple process to see that if the
premise is true, then seven times the number of Blacks
escape the DP, because they murdered Blacks instead
of Whites, while a much lesser number of Whites murder
Blacks, but murder Whites, and will receive the DP.
> This is probably
> the most painful example of discrimination left in American
> society and is one of the most powerful reasons for getting
> rid of the DP. I am quite sure that if the UK had not got
> rid of the DP the same form of discrimination would exist
> here. The police, the judges and the juries are predominantly
> white and people, being what they are, would be prejudiced
> against the coloured minority and that prejudice would
> reveal itself in much the same way as it does in America.
>
Were the DP to be abolished it would have NO impact on
reducing racism. Because it is in the guilty/not guilty phase
that it exists. IMHO We would STILL send more innocent blacks
to prison than Whites. The point is that eliminating the
DP, would NOT reduce racism in the Justice System. We
send a certain ratio of Black murderers to execution and
a certain ratio of White murderers to execution. That ratio,
IF ANYTHING, is biased in FAVOR of the Black, if we
presume that those who murder Blacks do NOT receive
the DP as often as those who murder Whites. Simply
because almost EVERY murder of a Black is COMMITTED
by a Black. The reasons for that are well-established, but
have NOTHING to do with the DP. They have to do with the fact
that our society has diminished the Black so often and for
so long, that THEY start to believe THEY are worthless,
and life becomes less meaningful to them. But do not
for an instant believe that eliminating the DP will do ANYTHING
toward racism, because it is not racist, in respect to
Blacks being SINGLED out for execution. Since Whites
murder Whites more than Blacks murder Whites, and
those who murder Whites are more likely to receive the
DP, it is fairly obvious which race benefits from that
'fact' (if it is some sort of 'fact').
dirtdog
<abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote:
<snipped>
> 2) The DP is biased in
>FAVOR of the Black since those 'of any race' who
>murder Blacks are not as likely to receive the DP.
ROTFLMAO!!
Let me get this right. You now claim that the DP is biased in _favour_
of blacks because it is much less likely to be used in response to the
murder of a black person?
Ho ho ho
Next, you'll be claiming that the US stationing troops in post-war
Europe wasn't in the interests of the US because it had the 'bomb',
and the Soviets didn't...
Oh, I forgot, you already did!
<PV showing his arse to Rennie and asking for another spanking
snipped>
w00f
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
'Round and round the houses goes the Teddy Bear,
one step, two step, tickle him under there' A favourite
nonsensical verse much loved by my children, however,
it makes more sense than the above. You agree with
my general point that the Justice System of America is
racist. How can you then say that the DP, its
ultimate penalty, is biased TOWARDS the Black.
If the system is racist then the bias in the use of any of its
penalties is AGAINST the Black. You 'like' the
argument because you fail to understand it. The
American Justice system does not give a bugger for the
crimes that blacks commit against each other, its
ultimate penalty is only used when a black murders
a white. (I am using a broad brush here - I am sure
there are instances of blacks being executed for the
murder of blacks but you will agree that they are
rare and are getting rarer.) The system is not being
fairer to blacks by not executing them for the murder
of their brethren, it is saying in the plainest language
possible that a white's life is more valuable than that
of a black. What a message for the Great Society
to deliver not only to its own people but to the rest of
the world.
>
> > Are you wilfully missing the point or does it just escape from
> > you? What the above proves is that white American society
> > represented by its judicial system cares very little for the
> > black murdered by his fellow black but cares a great
> > deal for the white murdered by a black.
>
> Bullshit. That is NOT what is implied. You have misstated
> the conclusion completely. If there IS any conclusion, it
> is that the Justice System cares more about a White murdered
> by ANYONE, then it does about a Black murdered by
> ANYONE.
Do you ever check back on what you have typed before
posting? First you say 'BULLSHIT' and then you go on to
make the EXACT point that I have made albeit with
different words. I say the system "cares very little for
the black murdered by his fellow black but cares a great
deal for the white murdered by a black." You say the system
"cares more about a White murdered by ANYONE, then it
does about a Black murdered by ANYONE." What is
the bloody difference? There ISN'T any except in your
mind. You are, in fact agreeing with me but your overweight
ego won't let you admit it.
That's quite different from your statement. Given
> the premise that those who murder Whites are more likely
> to receive the DP than those who murder Blacks (still a very
> iffy theory,
I think the original argument was based on
Justice Department statistics not on any theories.
but for the sake of argument), it says NOTHING
> about Whites murdered by Blacks. It says Whites murdered
> by ANY RACE. The percentage of Whites who murder
> Whites and are executed and Blacks who murder Whites
> and are executed are the SAME in relation to the total
> number of those murders committed. There is no
> racism within the concept of those who murder White.
Then your own statement above is incorrect.
>
> Now...It is ONLY (for the sake of argument) presumed that
> ALL those who murder Whites are more likely to receive
> the DP than ALL those who murder Blacks. But since
> Blacks murder Blacks at seven or eight times the rate they
> murder Whites, it is a simple process to see that if the
> premise is true, then seven times the number of Blacks
> escape the DP, because they murdered Blacks instead
> of Whites, while a much lesser number of Whites murder
> Blacks, but murder Whites, and will receive the DP.
>
> > This is probably
> > the most painful example of discrimination left in American
> > society and is one of the most powerful reasons for getting
> > rid of the DP. I am quite sure that if the UK had not got
> > rid of the DP the same form of discrimination would exist
> > here. The police, the judges and the juries are predominantly
> > white and people, being what they are, would be prejudiced
> > against the coloured minority and that prejudice would
> > reveal itself in much the same way as it does in America.
> >
> Were the DP to be abolished it would have NO impact on
> reducing racism.
I disagree.
Because it is in the guilty/not guilty phase
> that it exists. IMHO We would STILL send more innocent blacks
> to prison than Whites.
But you would not be executing them and there is
a difference between being alive than dead. (or perhaps
you don't agree.)
The point is that eliminating the
> DP, would NOT reduce racism in the Justice System.
> We send a certain ratio of Black murderers to execution and
> a certain ratio of White murderers to execution. That ratio,
> IF ANYTHING, is biased in FAVOR of the Black, if we
> presume that those who murder Blacks do NOT receive
> the DP as often as those who murder Whites.
What is it with you? What strange demon has entered
your mind and completely deranged it? You admit almost
gaily that the American Justice System is racist and yet
it is biased IN FAVOUR OF THE BLACK merely
because its treats black on black murders more leniently
than black on white murders. Try to get this fact into
your head THE AMERICAN JUSTICE SYSTEM DOES
NOT CARE ABOUT BLACKS MURDERING BLACKS,
IT DOES CARE ABOUT BLACKS MURDERING
WHITES.
Simply
> because almost EVERY murder of a Black is COMMITTED
> by a Black. The reasons for that are well-established, but
> have NOTHING to do with the DP. They have to do with the fact
> that our society has diminished the Black so often and for
> so long, that THEY start to believe THEY are worthless,
> and life becomes less meaningful to them. But do not
> for an instant believe that eliminating the DP will do ANYTHING
> toward racism, because it is not racist, in respect to
> Blacks being SINGLED out for execution. Since Whites
> murder Whites more than Blacks murder Whites, and
> those who murder Whites are more likely to receive the
> DP, it is fairly obvious which race benefits from that
> 'fact' (if it is some sort of 'fact').
The above adds up to a zero like so many of your
arguments of late.
>
> > >. Blacks murder Blacks at
> > > a horrendous rate, and that can be attributed to racism, and
> > > injustice in society, which creates a feeling of worthlessness by
> > > Blacks themselves, there's hardly any denying this. But this
> > > certainly cannot be attributed to the DP itself. It is a problem
> > > that society must solve, totally separate from the use of the DP
> > > for murderers. So, when it comes to the DP, Blacks are LESS likely
> > > to receive the DP since almost all their murders are committed
> > > against other Blacks, and those DO NOT result in the DP.
> > >
> > > PV
You care deeply about racism in America. Of that I have
no doubt - the tragedy is that you support a penalty that, in the
biased manner it is implemented, helps to consolidate that
racism.
incubus
> Le Sun, 25 Aug 2002 19:15:41 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a
écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> Perhaps you could tell me how it is possible to kill someone, without
> >> affecting their loved ones, incubus.
>
> > You can't nor can you imprison someone without affecting thier family.
>
> hope that one day, their loved one will be released. This isn't a
> luxury afforded to those whose loved ones are executed.
Have you ever visited a prisoner Desi? Have you you ever been inside
yourself? many prisoners can not bear to have thier families visit and see
them in this environment. Others are subjected to a life worse than death
>
> { snip }
>
> >>To a mother, whether her son is
> >> guilty or not of murder, is irrelevant. She loves him, every bit as
> >> much as the mother of the murder victim. She does not want him to die,
> >> yet she will be deprived of her son, and the only 'excuse' given to
her,
> >> will be, 'It's his fault.' Will that help her to come to terms with
her
> >> grief ?
>
> > Oh i agree with you. It is tragic but sadly unavoidable. bear in mind
also
> > that at least the family of the murder victim can find some peace
>
> For every relative of a murder victim who claims to 'find some peace',
> there is another who opposes the execution. This 'closure' is a
'marketing
> ploy' by 'victims' rights' groups like JFA, to increase the number of
> executions.
the people who oppose the murder have not been affected in any way by the
murderer. Those that oppose have not lost a loved one to this murderer.
Victims do have rights, they are not the wrong doers.
>
> I don't think that a family will ever 'get closure' when it comes to the
> brutal death of someone they loved. Execution has nothing to do with;
> murder victims' families in Europe, get by very well thank you, without
> this savage baying for blood that characterises so many capital trials
> in the United States.
The family of the murder victims will never get closure but they will get
some justice. I don't know about France, but in Britain the lack of
discipline to the undisciplined is bringing the situation out of hand. We
punish the victims here :-(
>
> >> Murder creates one set of 'victims and loved ones'. The death penalty
> >> creates a second set.
>
> > No. Murder creates them both
>
> Incorrect.
what? just "Incorrect"?? no justification of that remark? Oh come on. You
are usually the first to justify your remarks. Don't let the side down now .
>
> { snip }
Jürgen
Richard J. schrieb in Nachricht <3D6AE2B9...@hotmail.com>...
LOL. Your official state will of course in official state documents record
its/their own embarrassment.
My sources are multiple reports of various independent media on not too few
occasions. Actually the pathetic resources are in the focus almost in any
report of a pending execution.
If you want to claim otherwise, Richard, then tell us a corrected amount.
Tell us whether public defenders in TX were provided with $5.000, $10.000,
$20.000 or any other amount. Simply calling me and all sources liars without
providing a counter-statement is quite not sufficient.
Jürgen
incubus
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
oh my god PV has exploded.
dirtdog
wrote:
>
>"Desmond Coughlan" <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> wrote in message
>news:slrnamn3jd.4mp.p...@lievre.voute.net...
>> Le Sun, 25 Aug 2002 19:15:41 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a
>écrit :
>>
>> { snip }
>>
>> >> Perhaps you could tell me how it is possible to kill someone, without
>> >> affecting their loved ones, incubus.
>>
>> > You can't nor can you imprison someone without affecting thier family.
>>
>> Their family can still visit. They can still bring gifts. They can
>> hope that one day, their loved one will be released. This isn't a
>> luxury afforded to those whose loved ones are executed.
>
>Have you ever visited a prisoner Desi? Have you you ever been inside
>yourself? many prisoners can not bear to have thier families visit and see
>them in this environment. Others are subjected to a life worse than death
What a lot of shit.
Certainly every prisoner or ex-con I have ever come into contact with
will quite categorically state that looking forward to their next V.O.
is all that kept them sane.
Incidentally, what the fuck has this got to do with Desmond's point?
He is talking of the differing effect upon criminals' families which
execution and imprisonment will have, not their respective effect upon
the convicted themselves.
Tool.
w00f
Richard J.
If there is a set amount, it must be stated. That's the nature of
governments, even if it is to their own eventual detriment. Remember
that most of the evidence used against German war criminals at Nuremberg
came from Nazi records following W.W.II. And you Germans keep very good
records.
>
> My sources are multiple reports of various independent media on not too few
> occasions. Actually the pathetic resources are in the focus almost in any
> report of a pending execution.
>
So show me the sources of your statement. Where are the sources backing
up your announcement? It isn't an opinion when you state a fact like a
set amount, and you should have verifiable sources to back up such data.
> If you want to claim otherwise, Richard, then tell us a corrected amount.
> Tell us whether public defenders in TX were provided with $5.000, $10.000,
> $20.000 or any other amount. Simply calling me and all sources liars without
> providing a counter-statement is quite not sufficient.
>
> Jürgen
I have not made a claim of any amount, Jürgen. You stated data, and I
want to verify it's accuracy. From you stance is is pretty evident to
me you are unable to do so. Show a verifiable source or admit you have
no reliable source. If you don't have the ability to do that, you are
no debater, but simply a propagandist.
--
Teflon
A Planet Visitor
"dirtdog" <dir...@fruffrant.com> wrote in message news:37lmmuc455e9h8sqm...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 27 Aug 2002 05:26:58 GMT, "A Planet Visitor"
> <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote:
>
> <snipped>
>
> > 2) The DP is biased in
> >FAVOR of the Black since those 'of any race' who
> >murder Blacks are not as likely to receive the DP.
>
> ROTFLMAO!!
>
> Let me get this right. You now claim that the DP is biased in _favour_
> of blacks because it is much less likely to be used in response to the
> murder of a black person?
>
> Ho ho ho
>
The justice system is certainly not 'biased in favor of Blacks.'
But the two arguments are quite separate. Of course, all of this
is only 'opinion,' since no conclusive evidence can be drawn from
any of the arguments swirling about the Justice System and the
DP, in respect to bias. So, IMHO, the Justice System is 'biased'
AGAINST Blacks because I personally perceive that the 'halo
effect' has much to do with a finding of guilty, of those
TRULY (in an ABSOLUTE sense, not legally or 'factual') innocent,
in ALL crimes, not just the crime of murder.
While the DP is 'biased' in FAVOR of the Black MURDERER.
If we agree that those who murder Blacks are less likely than
those who murder whites to receive the DP, it must be noted
that 94% of ALL Black murders were COMMITTED by Black murderers.
While 85% of ALL White murders were COMMITTED by White
murderers. See
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/htiuscdb.pdf
Even though you are admittedly extremely weak in arithmetic,
you should still be able to see that 94% of those who murder
Blacks (who ARE Black), are LESS likely to receive the DP.
While 84% of those who murder Whites (who ARE White),
are MORE likely to receive the DP.
> Next, you'll be claiming that the US stationing troops in post-war
> Europe wasn't in the interests of the US because it had the 'bomb',
> and the Soviets didn't...
>
> Oh, I forgot, you already did!
>
Which is quite true...and simply demonstrates your inability to
'grasp the fundamentals.'
>
<pathetic insult clipped>
PV
> w00f
>
>
A Planet Visitor
>
>
Unlike you, FDP. I do not 'seek' friends here.
A Planet Visitor
"incubus" <inc...@hellfire.com> wrote in message news:zoOa9.1122$vI4.68795@newsfep2-gui...
84% of all White murders are committed by Whites, see
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/htiuscdb.pdf
and it is contended that those who murder Whites are more likely
to be executed, then it's IMPOSSIBLE to claim that 'racism'
against Blacks exists in respect to those we EXECUTE. One
may argue that 'racism' exists regarding the VICTIM, but then
84% of those VICTIMS are murdered by Whites, and thus
16% by races other than Whites, which is very consistent with
the population in the U.S.
incubus
> Le Tue, 27 Aug 2002 17:35:18 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a
écrit :
>
> >> >> Perhaps you could tell me how it is possible to kill someone,
without
> >> >> affecting their loved ones, incubus.
>
> >> > You can't nor can you imprison someone without affecting thier
family.
>
> >> Their family can still visit. They can still bring gifts. They can
> >> hope that one day, their loved one will be released. This isn't a
> >> luxury afforded to those whose loved ones are executed.
>
> > Have you ever visited a prisoner Desi? Have you you ever been inside
> > yourself? many prisoners can not bear to have thier families visit and
see
> > them in this environment. Others are subjected to a life worse than
death
>
> family wanted to come and see me ... and I considered visiting Drewl
> in gaol when he got sent down for federal telecommunications offences,
> but I couldn't get out to the United States.
I know a chap who is on life license, she supports the death penalty
>
> { snip }
>
> >> For every relative of a murder victim who claims to 'find some peace',
> >> there is another who opposes the execution. This 'closure' is a
> > 'marketing
> >> ploy' by 'victims' rights' groups like JFA, to increase the number of
> >> executions.
>
> > the people who oppose the murder have not been affected in any way by
the
> > murderer.
>
> The 'people who oppose the murder' ?
>
> Would that be a Freudian slip, incubus, old son ?
yes just a little one :-)
>
> > Those that oppose have not lost a loved one to this murderer.
>
> Pardon ?
>
> url:http://www.mvfr.org/
>
> These people _have_ lost loved ones to murderers ... and they _oppose_
> the execution of the latter.
that is up to them. They are more forgiving than i would be
>
> > Victims do have rights, they are not the wrong doers.
>
> Living victims of non-lethal offences, have rights. Dead victims have
> no rights. They are dead, and cannot be brought back.
but they are dead because they were murdered
>
> Their families have rights, of course, but to claim that deathie relatives
> have rights, whilst caring, abolitionist relatives do not, should incite
> a cry of 'sauce for the goose ?'
they all have rights mate. even the murderer untill they strap him to the
gurney.
>
> >> I don't think that a family will ever 'get closure' when it comes to
the
> >> brutal death of someone they loved. Execution has nothing to do with;
> >> murder victims' families in Europe, get by very well thank you, without
> >> this savage baying for blood that characterises so many capital trials
> >> in the United States.
>
> > The family of the murder victims will never get closure but they will
get
> > some justice.
>
> 'Justice' is a word hijacked by the deathies. Justice cannot exist as
long
> as only the innocent use it.
letting murdereres get away with it certainly is not justice
>
> > I don't know about France, but in Britain the lack of
> > discipline to the undisciplined
>
> Eh ?
mental note to self, finish your sentances :-)
>
> Could we have that in English ?
>
> { snip }
I forgot what it was now
>
> > what? just "Incorrect"?? no justification of that remark? Oh come on.
You
> > are usually the first to justify your remarks. Don't let the side down
now .
>
> There are some truths, incubus, that are Absolutes. The Death Penalty
> is Wrong, is one of them.
only to aboloshinists my son.
Jürgen
Richard J. schrieb in Nachricht <3D6BCF76...@hotmail.com>...
*********************************
What is a reliable source? What right-winger state attorneys write, perhaps?
I heard this amount from several mutually independent sources - I however am
not in use to archive too much of this stuff. But I can well distinguish
between responsible journalism and crap.
So if you have to tell any different data, here's room for:
Jürgen
Jürgen
incubus schrieb in Nachricht
<4JRa9.4988$Mf6....@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net>...
>
>only to aboloshinists my son.
>
Can we have back the original Don?
incubus
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
<snip>
relax PV, I was only commenting on the assertiveness of your outburst. Your
point was well taken
incubus
> Le Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:10:23 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a
écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> > oh my god PV has exploded.
>
no i mean, "oh my god PV has exploded"
A Planet Visitor
"incubus" <inc...@hellfire.com> wrote in message news:sTNa9.1100$vI4.64383@newsfep2-gui...
You're joking of course? FDP recently announced that there was
evidence of Roger Coleman's innocence. Consider the dialog that
provided FDP's 'justification' for that 'innocence.
FDP -- "Consider the evidence. He was innocent."
Richard -- "Which specific evidence do you speak of, Desmond?"
FDP -- "The evidence that he was innocent, of course"
See how much 'justification' he provided?
PV
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
<K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote:
He's not Donnie, Jürgen. Incubus seems to be rather a nice chap, for
one thing.
Mr Q. Z. D.
--
Drinker, systems administrator, wannabe writer, musician and all-round bastard.
"...Base 8 is just like base 10 really... ((o))
If you're missing two fingers." - Tom Lehrer ((O))
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 17:11:22 +0000
>
>Le Tue, 27 Aug 2002 18:10:23 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>> oh my god PV has exploded.
>
>I think you mean, 'Oh my God, LDB has lost all of his "friends" !'
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 17:11:22 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 13
>Message-ID: <slrnamnclq.58e.p...@lievre.voute.net>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:07:39 +0000
>
>Le Tue, 27 Aug 2002 23:12:21 +0200, Jürgen <K.J.H...@t-online.de> a écrit
>:
>
>>>only to aboloshinists my son.
>
>> Can we have back the original Don?
>
>:-)
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:07:39 +0000
>Organization: None
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 23:27:01 +0000
>
>Le Tue, 27 Aug 2002 23:14:14 GMT, Mr Q. Z. Diablo
><jona...@zeouane.org.remove.this.it.is.bollocks> a écrit :
>
>>> >only to aboloshinists my son.
>
>>> Can we have back the original Don?
>
>> He's not Donnie, Jürgen. Incubus seems to be rather a nice chap, for
>> one thing.
>
>One, I think that Jürgen knew that. :-) Two, I'm glad that everyone
>is following my lead, of using the umlaut in his name. :-)
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 23:27:01 +0000
>Organization: None
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:36:29 +0000
>
>Le Sun, 25 Aug 2002 19:15:41 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Perhaps you could tell me how it is possible to kill someone, without
>>> affecting their loved ones, incubus.
>
>> You can't nor can you imprison someone without affecting thier family.
>
>Their family can still visit. They can still bring gifts. They can
>hope that one day, their loved one will be released. This isn't a
>luxury afforded to those whose loved ones are executed.
>
>{ snip }
>
>>>To a mother, whether her son is
>>> guilty or not of murder, is irrelevant. She loves him, every bit as
>>> much as the mother of the murder victim. She does not want him to die,
>>> yet she will be deprived of her son, and the only 'excuse' given to her,
>>> will be, 'It's his fault.' Will that help her to come to terms with her
>>> grief ?
>
>> Oh i agree with you. It is tragic but sadly unavoidable. bear in mind also
>> that at least the family of the murder victim can find some peace
>
>For every relative of a murder victim who claims to 'find some peace',
>there is another who opposes the execution. This 'closure' is a 'marketing
>ploy' by 'victims' rights' groups like JFA, to increase the number of
>executions.
>
>I don't think that a family will ever 'get closure' when it comes to the
>brutal death of someone they loved. Execution has nothing to do with;
>murder victims' families in Europe, get by very well thank you, without
>this savage baying for blood that characterises so many capital trials
>in the United States.
>
>>> Murder creates one set of 'victims and loved ones'. The death penalty
>>> creates a second set.
>
>> No. Murder creates them both
>
>Incorrect.
>
>{ snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:36:29 +0000
>Organization: None
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 17:31:05 +0000
>
>Le Tue, 27 Aug 2002 17:35:18 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a écrit :
>
>
>>> >> Perhaps you could tell me how it is possible to kill someone, without
>>> >> affecting their loved ones, incubus.
>
>>> > You can't nor can you imprison someone without affecting thier family.
>
>>> Their family can still visit. They can still bring gifts. They can
>>> hope that one day, their loved one will be released. This isn't a
>>> luxury afforded to those whose loved ones are executed.
>
>> Have you ever visited a prisoner Desi? Have you you ever been inside
>> yourself? many prisoners can not bear to have thier families visit and see
>> them in this environment. Others are subjected to a life worse than death
>
>Well when I was doing 'three to five' for my 'computer crimes', my
>family wanted to come and see me ... and I considered visiting Drewl
>in gaol when he got sent down for federal telecommunications offences,
>but I couldn't get out to the United States.
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> For every relative of a murder victim who claims to 'find some peace',
>>> there is another who opposes the execution. This 'closure' is a
>> 'marketing
>>> ploy' by 'victims' rights' groups like JFA, to increase the number of
>>> executions.
>
>> the people who oppose the murder have not been affected in any way by the
>> murderer.
>
>The 'people who oppose the murder' ?
>
>Would that be a Freudian slip, incubus, old son ?
>
>> Those that oppose have not lost a loved one to this murderer.
>
>Pardon ?
>
>url:http://www.mvfr.org/
>
>These people _have_ lost loved ones to murderers ... and they _oppose_
>the execution of the latter.
>
>> Victims do have rights, they are not the wrong doers.
>
>Living victims of non-lethal offences, have rights. Dead victims have
>no rights. They are dead, and cannot be brought back.
>
>Their families have rights, of course, but to claim that deathie relatives
>have rights, whilst caring, abolitionist relatives do not, should incite
>a cry of 'sauce for the goose ?'
>
>>> I don't think that a family will ever 'get closure' when it comes to the
>>> brutal death of someone they loved. Execution has nothing to do with;
>>> murder victims' families in Europe, get by very well thank you, without
>>> this savage baying for blood that characterises so many capital trials
>>> in the United States.
>
>> The family of the murder victims will never get closure but they will get
>> some justice.
>
>'Justice' is a word hijacked by the deathies. Justice cannot exist as long
>as only the innocent use it.
>
>> I don't know about France, but in Britain the lack of
>> discipline to the undisciplined
>
>Eh ?
>
>Could we have that in English ?
>
>{ snip }
>
>> what? just "Incorrect"?? no justification of that remark? Oh come on. You
>> are usually the first to justify your remarks. Don't let the side down now
>.
>
>There are some truths, incubus, that are Absolutes. The Death Penalty
>is Wrong, is one of them.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 17:31:05 +0000
>Organization: None
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:53:53 +0000
>
>Le Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:36:01 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip one of LDB's worst spankings to date }
>
>> The above adds up to a zero like so many of your
>> arguments of late.
>
>It is sad when even _you_ have to point out to him what a crass fool
>he is being.
>
>My only regret is that it took you so long.
>
>{ snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:53:53 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 19
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Richard J.
No, what the law says. Such amounts will be stated in the law, if there
is any such thing, yet you would rather take the word of some left
winger than use the open records act to see what the truth is.
>
> I heard this amount from several mutually independent sources - I however am
> not in use to archive too much of this stuff. But I can well distinguish
> between responsible journalism and crap.
Yeah. If it fits your agenda it is responsible, right?
>
> So if you have to tell any different data, here's room for:
>
> Jürgen
Texas Code of criminal procedure.
Article 1.051
"(c) An indigent defendant is entitled to have an attorney appointed to
represent him in any adversary judicial proceeding that may result in
punishment by confinement and in any other criminal proceeding if the
court concludes that the interests of justice require representation.
Except as otherwise provided by this subsection, if an indigent
defendant is entitled to and requests appointed counsel and if
adversarial judicial proceedings have been initiated against the
defendant, a court or the courts' designee authorized under Article
26.04 to appoint counsel for indigent defendants in the county shall
appoint counsel as soon as possible, but not later than the end of the
third working day after the date on which the court or the courts'
designee receives the defendant's request for appointment of counsel. In
a county with a population of 250,000 or more, the court or the courts'
designee shall appoint counsel as required by this subsection as soon as
possible, but not later than the end of the first working day after the
date on which the court or the courts' designee receives the defendant's
request for appointment of counsel."
This is the law we must work under in the State of Texas. It requires
indigent defendants be provided lawyers by the counties or courts, but
places no limit of $2,500 as you claim. It simply requires
representation be appointed if the defendant cannot provide his own.
Look through the LAW for your answer Jürgen. Our laws are available for
all to examine. They are public record. On the internet, the whole
Texas Code of Criminal Procedure is located at:
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/cp/cp0000100toc.html
Look for yourself. There is no hidden agenda with these laws. Like all
nations, we have written laws we must follow that require our legal
proceedings to follow proper form. Unlike some nations, these laws are
not hidden, but open for all to see, and the legal requirements for
criminal procedure are not open to interpretation by prosecutors. They
must follow procedure or face having the case overturned, censure, or
criminal penalty.
I've looked through this document and have yet to find any financial
limitation such as you insist occurs. The accusation is yours. You
posted it, now back it up or withdraw it.
It appears to me I've called your hand and you had nothing but bluff.
--
Teflon
A Planet Visitor
"John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:tnKa9.4274$TD6.1...@newsfep2-win.server.ntli.net...
Not necessarily. It can certainly be a biased system,
without the Penalty being biased. Think of rape. The
crime, and the finding of guilty were formerly very biased
against Blacks. It might still be (I believe it is), but let's
not go there, since it quickly takes us elsewhere. But just
because the FINDING of guilty is biased, certainly doesn't
mean that the PENALTY for the crime is biased. If a person
is guilty, a sentence of 20 years can seem quite reasonable
to everyone. So we must FIX the Justice System, not the
damn penalty. Abolishing the penalty, including the DP
will not 'fix' the Justice System. If you wish to argue that
the Justice System is racist, have at it, and consider that
the alternative you suggest in respect to the DP, simply
implies we do away with the entire Justice System. Which
is utter nonsense, and you know it. To argue that we must
do away with a penalty that has no apparent racism, because
we find racism in the entire justice system, is simply
inconsistent with reality.
> You 'like' the
> argument because you fail to understand it. The
> American Justice system does not give a bugger for the
> crimes that blacks commit against each other, its
> ultimate penalty is only used when a black murders
> a white. (I am using a broad brush here - I am sure
> there are instances of blacks being executed for the
> murder of blacks but you will agree that they are
> rare and are getting rarer.)
You conclusion is wrong once again. There is no racism
in WHO ARE executed. The Justice Department conducted an
extensive examination of racism in the DP and their findings after
a review of 950 cases showed no evidence of racial bias. See
http://www.aclu.org/news/2001/w060701a.html
It is simply unconscionable of you to distort my argument in
such a way. It's ultimate penalty is used when ANYONE
murders a White. You keep implying what is nowhere to
be found. The Justice System certainly (IMHO) doesn't
care that much about Blacks committing crimes against
other Blacks. But that has NOTHING to do with the DP in
respect to sending more Blacks to execution. In fact, if
it exists it means LESS Blacks get sent to execution.
> The system is not being
> fairer to blacks by not executing them for the murder
> of their brethren, it is saying in the plainest language
> possible that a white's life is more valuable than that
> of a black. What a message for the Great Society
> to deliver not only to its own people but to the rest of
> the world.
>
That is the Justice System. The System... not the DP.
Look... See
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_00/00crime2_3.pdf
This is the FBI statistics on 6,279 murders in 2000. Of those
3,352 were White victims. With 2,860 White murderer-White victim,
and 417 Black murderer-White victim. Thus, the numbers
show that there are 8 White murderers for every Black murderer
of a White victim. Which is consistent with the U.S. population. And
no evidence shows that MORE Black murderers are executed
because of White victims then is consistent with the ratio. In other
words those who MURDER White victims are ALL treated the same.
Now when we come to Black victims, we find a total of 2,927
Black victims. With 178 White murderer-Black victim, and
2,723 Black murderer-Black victim. So if those who murder
Black victims are not as likely to receive the DP, then we find a
much greater ratio of Black murderers will NOT receive the
DP then White murderers of Black victims.
> > > Are you wilfully missing the point or does it just escape from
> > > you? What the above proves is that white American society
> > > represented by its judicial system cares very little for the
> > > black murdered by his fellow black but cares a great
> > > deal for the white murdered by a black.
> >
> > Bullshit. That is NOT what is implied. You have misstated
> > the conclusion completely. If there IS any conclusion, it
> > is that the Justice System cares more about a White murdered
> > by ANYONE, then it does about a Black murdered by
> > ANYONE.
>
> Do you ever check back on what you have typed before
> posting? First you say 'BULLSHIT' and then you go on to
> make the EXACT point that I have made albeit with
> different words.
No.. You said "white murdered by a black." I corrected that
with "White murdered by ANYONE." The two statements are
hardly equivalent. Your statement WOULD imply racism is used
to EXECUTE Blacks My statement is that racism is not used to
EXECUTE Blacks. Whites murder Whites at a much greater
rate than Blacks murder Whites, and there is no racism inherent
WITHIN that group that murder Whites. The same percentage
of ANY race who murder Whites are sentenced to the DP.
Blacks murder Blacks at a much greater rate than Whites murder
Blacks. And if there is a perception that those who do are NOT
sentenced to the DP, then it MUST work in 'favor' of the Black
murderer. Since 94% (From a DOJ report) of ALL Black victims
are murdered by Black murderers.
> I say the system "cares very little for
> the black murdered by his fellow black but cares a great
> deal for the white murdered by a black." You say the system
> "cares more about a White murdered by ANYONE, then it
> does about a Black murdered by ANYONE." What is
> the bloody difference? There ISN'T any except in your
> mind. You are, in fact agreeing with me but your overweight
> ego won't let you admit it.
>
What is the difference??? The difference is that 'ANYONE'
is NOT the same as 'Black'!!!! If we have 12 White victims of
murderers, and 6 of them were murdered by Blacks, and 6
by Whites, and we sentenced ONLY the Blacks to the DP,
then YOUR statement would be appropriate. But if we
sentence 3 Blacks and 3 Whites to the DP my statement is
appropriate. And MY statement is the ONLY 'finding' which
has been developed (a finding which is by no means conclusive,
but for the sake of our argument here). And in respect to
Black victims, fully 94% are murdered by Black murderers.
Thus if we execute a lesser number of murderer who murder
Blacks than who murder Whites, that 94% has a much
LESS chance of falling within the same parameters used to
sentence those who murder Whites.
>
> That's quite different from your statement. Given
> > the premise that those who murder Whites are more likely
> > to receive the DP than those who murder Blacks (still a very
> > iffy theory,
>
> I think the original argument was based on
> Justice Department statistics not on any theories.
>
I don't know where it was developed from. I had seen it passed
around here, and never saw a source for the numbers, but it
sounded BELIEVABLE to me. I argue this from a sense of
'opinion' rather than hard cold facts. I would not be SURPRISED
if the conclusion were true, simply because I see racism in
our Justice System, but certainly not in the DP, in the form
that we usually expect to call it racism. Given that those
of ANY race who murder White victims are more likely to
receive the DP, there is no racism in THAT itself, in respect
to WHO we execute. Since 85% of White victims were
murdered by White murderers. While in respect to those
who murder Black victims, it's rather obvious that means that
a LESSER number of Black murderers will receive the DP,
since those murderers constitute 94% of ALL murderers of
Black victims.
> > but for the sake of argument), it says NOTHING
> > about Whites murdered by Blacks. It says Whites murdered
> > by ANY RACE. The percentage of Whites who murder
> > Whites and are executed and Blacks who murder Whites
> > and are executed are the SAME in relation to the total
> > number of those murders committed. There is no
> > racism within the concept of those who murder White.
>
> Then your own statement above is incorrect.
What are you talking about? I have no idea how I can make
this clearer to you.
If the victim is White... there is NO racism in selection of those
who have murdered those Whites.
If the victim is Black... there is a negative effect in respect to the
DP for Blacks. Because 1) Those who murder Blacks are
less likely to receive the DP, and 2) 94% of those who murder Blacks
are Black murderers.
> >
> > Now...It is ONLY (for the sake of argument) presumed that
> > ALL those who murder Whites are more likely to receive
> > the DP than ALL those who murder Blacks. But since
> > Blacks murder Blacks at seven or eight times the rate they
> > murder Whites, it is a simple process to see that if the
> > premise is true, then seven times the number of Blacks
> > escape the DP, because they murdered Blacks instead
> > of Whites, while a much lesser number of Whites murder
> > Blacks, but murder Whites, and will receive the DP.
> >
> > > This is probably
> > > the most painful example of discrimination left in American
> > > society and is one of the most powerful reasons for getting
> > > rid of the DP. I am quite sure that if the UK had not got
> > > rid of the DP the same form of discrimination would exist
> > > here. The police, the judges and the juries are predominantly
> > > white and people, being what they are, would be prejudiced
> > > against the coloured minority and that prejudice would
> > > reveal itself in much the same way as it does in America.
> > >
> > Were the DP to be abolished it would have NO impact on
> > reducing racism.
>
> I disagree.
>
I never said you couldn't. Nor can you say I can't disagree with you.
Nonetheless, I believe I have a better feel for racism in the U.S. than
you do. We would do much better to tackle racism in society at
large, and in my perception of it in the Justice System, without
wasting our time and effort in believing we can cosmetically solve
racism by excusing murder, even if we might now be doing so in
respect to NOT sentencing to the DP those murderers who murder
Black victims.
Actually, I don't know WHAT you want. Since if we REALLY
eliminated the REVERSE bias that I see in the DP, and executed
those who murder Blacks at the same rate as ALL THE RACES
who murder Whites, the number of Blacks we would necessarily
execute would leap dramatically. Why??? Because 94% of all
murders of Blacks are COMMITTED by Blacks, and presently we
are arguing that those who do so are NOT as likely to receive the
DP as those who murder Whites.
> > Because it is in the guilty/not guilty phase
> > that it exists. IMHO We would STILL send more innocent blacks
> > to prison than Whites.
>
> But you would not be executing them and there is
> a difference between being alive than dead. (or perhaps
> you don't agree.)
>
The point is we are not executing Blacks in racism in the DP.
Coincident with your 'suggestion' we would also not be executing
ANYONE. One has nothing to do with the other. Because
abolishing the DP will not remove racism from the Justice
System And it does not EXIST in the DP, in respect to WHO
we EXECUTE, as we usually see racism as prejudice against
a minority. If you wish to call it 'racism' that we tend to
give the DP to some degree more to ANY RACE who murder
Whites, and less to some degree to Blacks who murder Blacks,
you can do so. But you need to realize that what you call
'racism' actually works to SHIELD many Black murderers from
the DP, simply because 94% of Black victims are murdered
by Black murderers.
> >The point is that eliminating the
> > DP, would NOT reduce racism in the Justice System.
> > We send a certain ratio of Black murderers to execution and
> > a certain ratio of White murderers to execution. That ratio,
> > IF ANYTHING, is biased in FAVOR of the Black, if we
> > presume that those who murder Blacks do NOT receive
> > the DP as often as those who murder Whites.
>
> What is it with you? What strange demon has entered
> your mind and completely deranged it? You admit almost
> gaily that the American Justice System is racist and yet
> it is biased IN FAVOUR OF THE BLACK merely
> because its treats black on black murders more leniently
> than black on white murders. Try to get this fact into
> your head THE AMERICAN JUSTICE SYSTEM DOES
> NOT CARE ABOUT BLACKS MURDERING BLACKS,
> IT DOES CARE ABOUT BLACKS MURDERING
> WHITES.
>
Quite a performance... Every thought of going on the
stage? Nonetheless it is YOUR facts that are incorrect.
Given the argument. The Justice System cares about
ANY RACE murdering Whites. By you trying to 'single
out' Blacks murdering Whites, you have tried to shift
the argument to a false premise. It cares as much about
Whites murdering Whites, or Latinos murdering Whites,
or Asians murdering Whites. It is the victim rather than
the murderer that receives this irrational attention (if in
fact our argument, which is assumed simply for the
argument, is true). In addition, if it does not care about
Blacks murdering Blacks, that actually SHIELDS 94%
of those who murder those Blacks, since THEY are Black.
> > Simply
> > because almost EVERY murder of a Black is COMMITTED
> > by a Black. The reasons for that are well-established, but
> > have NOTHING to do with the DP. They have to do with the fact
> > that our society has diminished the Black so often and for
> > so long, that THEY start to believe THEY are worthless,
> > and life becomes less meaningful to them. But do not
> > for an instant believe that eliminating the DP will do ANYTHING
> > toward racism, because it is not racist, in respect to
> > Blacks being SINGLED out for execution. Since Whites
> > murder Whites more than Blacks murder Whites, and
> > those who murder Whites are more likely to receive the
> > DP, it is fairly obvious which race benefits from that
> > 'fact' (if it is some sort of 'fact').
>
> The above adds up to a zero like so many of your
> arguments of late.
>
And your counter-argument??? Please. You've tried over
and over in this argument to twist the fact that it is not about
Blacks murdering Whites. Because it is about ALL RACES
murdering Whites. There is no trace of racism in the
application of the DP in respect to those who murder Whites.
While we both agree that Blacks who murder Blacks are not
likely to receive the DP, but you seem oblivious to the fact that
this means fully 94% of all murderers who murder Blacks are
thus less likely to receive the DP because THEY are Blacks.
> >
> > > >. Blacks murder Blacks at
> > > > a horrendous rate, and that can be attributed to racism, and
> > > > injustice in society, which creates a feeling of worthlessness by
> > > > Blacks themselves, there's hardly any denying this. But this
> > > > certainly cannot be attributed to the DP itself. It is a problem
> > > > that society must solve, totally separate from the use of the DP
> > > > for murderers. So, when it comes to the DP, Blacks are LESS likely
> > > > to receive the DP since almost all their murders are committed
> > > > against other Blacks, and those DO NOT result in the DP.
> > > >
> > > > PV
>
> You care deeply about racism in America. Of that I have
> no doubt - the tragedy is that you support a penalty that, in the
> biased manner it is implemented, helps to consolidate that
> racism.
>
Very untrue. Were the DP to be eliminated it would not affect
one bit the racism in the Justice System. And in the end it would
be all about excusing ALL murder. You need to understand, that
any suggestion that we execute Blacks who murder Blacks, at
the same rate we execute ALL RACES who murder Whites,
would result in a quantum leap in the execution of Black murderers.
I could not possibly find that acceptable BECAUSE of the racism
I see in the Justice System. The racism I see in the Justice System
is rather counter-balanced (IMHO not nearly enough however) by the
fact that many Black murderers of Black victims, 94% of all those
who murder Black victims, are less likely to receive the DP. In
addition it effectively 'insulates' the DP from those flaws I see in
the Justice System. If we do not sentence to the DP, they cannot
possible translate INTO the DP. They stay totally distinct from
that penalty, and remain the flaws I see in the Justice System
which NEVER extend into the DP, simply because of the fact
that Blacks who murder Blacks are not as frequently sentenced
to the DP. Further, this certainly means we will conceivably not
execute a convicted Black murderer of a Black victim, who might
actually be innocent, because of the flaws in the Justice System.
Or at the least, it reduces our chances of doing so rather dramatically.
And I am all in favor of such a reduction in the chances of doing
so, without accepting anything in the way of abolishing the DP.
Since in the end, murder cannot be excused.
PV
A Planet Visitor
"incubus" <inc...@hellfire.com> wrote in message news:XQRa9.5057$Mf6....@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...
particular argument I realize is hard to 'defend' in a context of 'racism.'
Since it could be argued that perhaps it is a 'form' of racism, but not
one I would disagree with. Since it works to counter-balance any
possibility of someone sentenced to the DP simply because he is Black.
PV
A Planet Visitor
> Le Tue, 27 Aug 2002 13:36:01 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a écrit :
>
> { snip one of LDB's worst spankings to date }
>
> > arguments of late.
>
> he is being.
>
> My only regret is that it took you so long.
>
lies one of the most petulant personalities we will ever see.
You're obviously still out looking for 'friends.' BTW Judge Zobel??
See http://www.cnn.com/US/9711/10/au.pair.ruling/
PV
> { snip }
incubus
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
I detest all racism, I remember my algebra from school and i respect the
true concept of equality. We are all people after all. Skin colour is only a
cosmetic
>
> PV
>
John Rennie
"A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> wrote in message
>
>
snip
Is this deliiberate? Do you mean to imply that you have yet again
missed the entire point of my argument? If so it is just not
worth continuing. My point which I will make for the
umpteenth time is that there IS racism when it comes to
those that are MURDERED and, therefore, there has
to be racism in those that are executed. One follows upon
the other.
The Justice Department conducted an
> extensive examination of racism in the DP and their findings after
> a review of 950 cases showed no evidence of racial bias. See
> http://www.aclu.org/news/2001/w060701a.html
> It is simply unconscionable of you to distort my argument in
> such a way.
Blimey! Me distort YOUR argument. You are the greatest
distorter (forgive ugly word) of other people's arguments on
this news group. Even when you have a good case which
happens sometimes, you rarely miss the opportunity to
distort, fabricate or invent a strawdog which makes you
the laughing stock that you have become over the past
few years. You only have to see how you are attempting to
distort my argument above to see how true my accusation
is.
It's ultimate penalty is used when ANYONE
> murders a White. You keep implying what is nowhere to
> be found. The Justice System certainly (IMHO) doesn't
> care that much about Blacks committing crimes against
> other Blacks. But that has NOTHING to do with the DP in
> respect to sending more Blacks to execution. In fact, if
> it exists it means LESS Blacks get sent to execution.
It really can be so wearisome when you deliberately
(I am now sure it is deliberate) miss the point. I'll
try just the once more: If the Justice System doesn't care
about Blacks murdering other Blacks but DOES care
about Blacks or other variations of coloured citizens
murdering Whites and executes more readily when
that occurs, then the DP is part of that racism. Do
you or do you not agree that if a Black murders a
White, s/he has a greater chance of being executed
than if s/he murders a fellow Black? If you agree
then you are admitting that the DP is part and parcel
of the racist Justice System.
>
> > The system is not being
> > fairer to blacks by not executing them for the murder
> > of their brethren, it is saying in the plainest language
> > possible that a white's life is more valuable than that
> > of a black. What a message for the Great Society
> > to deliver not only to its own people but to the rest of
> > the world.
> >
> That is the Justice System. The System... not the DP.
> Look... See
> http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_00/00crime2_3.pdf
> This is the FBI statistics on 6,279 murders in 2000. Of those
> 3,352 were White victims. With 2,860 White murderer-White victim,
> and 417 Black murderer-White victim. Thus, the numbers
> show that there are 8 White murderers for every Black murderer
> of a White victim. Which is consistent with the U.S. population. And
> no evidence shows that MORE Black murderers are executed
> because of White victims then is consistent with the ratio.
You have produced an FBI Report that concerns itself with
murders and only murders. No comment there whatsoever
about executions. BTW you managed even then to get your
figures wrong - the statistics are based on either 12943 or
14,697 murders - the tables differ but who am I to criticse
the FBI?
In other
> words those who MURDER White victims are ALL treated the same.
Bollocks, PV. Where's the evidence - not in your crummy FBI
report.
> Now when we come to Black victims, we find a total of 2,927
> Black victims. With 178 White murderer-Black victim, and
> 2,723 Black murderer-Black victim. So if those who murder
> Black victims are not as likely to receive the DP, then we find a
> much greater ratio of Black murderers will NOT receive the
> DP then White murderers of Black victims
>
> > > > Are you wilfully missing the point or does it just escape from
> > > > you? What the above proves is that white American society
> > > > represented by its judicial system cares very little for the
> > > > black murdered by his fellow black but cares a great
> > > > deal for the white murdered by a black.
> > >
> > > Bullshit. That is NOT what is implied. You have misstated
> > > the conclusion completely. If there IS any conclusion, it
> > > is that the Justice System cares more about a White murdered
> > > by ANYONE, then it does about a Black murdered by
> > > ANYONE.
> >
> > Do you ever check back on what you have typed before
> > posting? First you say 'BULLSHIT' and then you go on to
> > make the EXACT point that I have made albeit with
> > different words.
>
> No.. You said "white murdered by a black." I corrected that
> with "White murdered by ANYONE." The two statements are
> hardly equivalent.
Oh yes they are. You might as well look at the FBI report
again and see just how few fall into the 'others' category.
Your statement WOULD imply racism is used
> to EXECUTE Blacks My statement is that racism is not used to
> EXECUTE Blacks. Whites murder Whites at a much greater
> rate than Blacks murder Whites, and there is no racism inherent
> WITHIN that group that murder Whites.
Agreed. (Nice to agree on something).
The same percentage
> of ANY race who murder Whites are sentenced to the DP.
> Blacks murder Blacks at a much greater rate than Whites murder
> Blacks. And if there is a perception that those who do are NOT
> sentenced to the DP, then it MUST work in 'favor' of the Black
> murderer. Since 94% (From a DOJ report) of ALL Black victims
> are murdered by Black murderers.
You are just being silly and you take every opportunity to wander
away from the point. You have to, of course, because I have proven
my case time and time again. Unlike some I take no pleasure in
this - well, not that much pleasure. Oh. all right, I am enjoying
myself.
>
> > I say the system "cares very little for
> > the black murdered by his fellow black but cares a great
> > deal for the white murdered by a black." You say the system
> > "cares more about a White murdered by ANYONE, then it
> > does about a Black murdered by ANYONE." What is
> > the bloody difference? There ISN'T any except in your
> > mind. You are, in fact agreeing with me but your overweight
> > ego won't let you admit it.
> >
> What is the difference??? The difference is that 'ANYONE'
> is NOT the same as 'Black'!!!! If we have 12 White victims of
> murderers, and 6 of them were murdered by Blacks, and 6
> by Whites, and we sentenced ONLY the Blacks to the DP,
> then YOUR statement would be appropriate. But if we
> sentence 3 Blacks and 3 Whites to the DP my statement is
> appropriate. And MY statement is the ONLY 'finding' which
> has been developed (a finding which is by no means conclusive,
> but for the sake of our argument here). And in respect to
> Black victims, fully 94% are murdered by Black murderers.
> Thus if we execute a lesser number of murderer who murder
> Blacks than who murder Whites, that 94% has a much
> LESS chance of falling within the same parameters used to
> sentence those who murder Whites.
So far I have concentrated my limited argument to the
simple point that a Black has a much greater chance of
being executed for killing a White than he has for killing
a fellow Black. I wonder if we can find out whether
he has a greater chance of being executed for killing
a White than a White has for killing a White? Now
there's a thought - I have a suspicion that he has.
What do you think, PV? Perhaps Earl or Richard
could study the 66 executions of 2001 and give
a studied answer? Or perhaps you could? You
could make a supreme effort, you could try to be
fair.
You could stop telling lies which is what you did when
you produced an FBI table and implied that it contained
information about executions.
>
> If the victim is White... there is NO racism in selection of those
> who have murdered those Whites.
>
> If the victim is Black... there is a negative effect in respect to the
> DP for Blacks. Because 1) Those who murder Blacks are
> less likely to receive the DP, and 2) 94% of those who murder Blacks
> are Black murderers.
I know, I know, I know and I know but that's got fuckall to
do with the price of tomatoes.
>
> > >
> > > Now...It is ONLY (for the sake of argument) presumed that
> > > ALL those who murder Whites are more likely to receive
> > > the DP than ALL those who murder Blacks. But since
> > > Blacks murder Blacks at seven or eight times the rate they
> > > murder Whites, it is a simple process to see that if the
> > > premise is true, then seven times the number of Blacks
> > > escape the DP, because they murdered Blacks instead
> > > of Whites, while a much lesser number of Whites murder
> > > Blacks, but murder Whites, and will receive the DP.
> > >
> > > > This is probably
> > > > the most painful example of discrimination left in American
> > > > society and is one of the most powerful reasons for getting
> > > > rid of the DP. I am quite sure that if the UK had not got
> > > > rid of the DP the same form of discrimination would exist
> > > > here. The police, the judges and the juries are predominantly
> > > > white and people, being what they are, would be prejudiced
> > > > against the coloured minority and that prejudice would
> > > > reveal itself in much the same way as it does in America.
> > > >
> > > Were the DP to be abolished it would have NO impact on
> > > reducing racism.
> >
> > I disagree.
> >
> I never said you couldn't. Nor can you say I can't disagree with you.
> Nonetheless, I believe I have a better feel for racism in the U.S. than
> you do.
I may well have a better feel for it world wide than you do.
Who knows?
We would do much better to tackle racism in society at
> large, and in my perception of it in the Justice System, without
> wasting our time and effort in believing we can cosmetically solve
> racism by excusing murder, even if we might now be doing so in
> respect to NOT sentencing to the DP those murderers who murder
> Black victims.
>
> Actually, I don't know WHAT you want.
I want the Death Penaltyy abolished in the United States
of America, that's what I want.
Since if we REALLY
> eliminated the REVERSE bias that I see in the DP, and executed
> those who murder Blacks at the same rate as ALL THE RACES
> who murder Whites, the number of Blacks we would necessarily
> execute would leap dramatically. Why??? Because 94% of all
> murders of Blacks are COMMITTED by Blacks, and presently we
> are arguing that those who do so are NOT as likely to receive the
> DP as those who murder Whites.
>
> > > Because it is in the guilty/not guilty phase
> > > that it exists. IMHO We would STILL send more innocent blacks
> > > to prison than Whites.
> >
> > But you would not be executing them and there is
> > a difference between being alive than dead. (or perhaps
> > you don't agree.)
> >
> The point is we are not executing Blacks in racism in the DP.
> Coincident with your 'suggestion' we would also not be executing
> ANYONE.
Wowee! You have arrived - you took a somewhat circumtuitous
route but you got there in the end.
One has nothing to do with the other. Because
> abolishing the DP will not remove racism from the Justice
> System And it does not EXIST in the DP, in respect to WHO
> we EXECUTE, as we usually see racism as prejudice against
> a minority. If you wish to call it 'racism' that we tend to
> give the DP to some degree more to ANY RACE who murder
> Whites, and less to some degree to Blacks who murder Blacks,
> you can do so. But you need to realize that what you call
> 'racism' actually works to SHIELD many Black murderers from
> the DP, simply because 94% of Black victims are murdered
> by Black murderers.
That's a nice way of putting it, isn't it? The System that
cares so little for what Black does to Black is 'shielding'
them. You missed your vocation, PV. You should have
been a political 'spin doctor' - you can put an attractive
gloss on the vilest of acts. One thing is certain we have
a greater chance of getting rid of the DP in what is left
of our lifetimes than we have of getting rid of racism. I
have met Blacks, some American, who are incensed
by how the DP is applied to Blacks in America; they
consider it to be one of the last bastions of institutional
racism.
>
> > >The point is that eliminating the
> > > DP, would NOT reduce racism in the Justice System.
> > > We send a certain ratio of Black murderers to execution and
> > > a certain ratio of White murderers to execution. That ratio,
> > > IF ANYTHING, is biased in FAVOR of the Black, if we
> > > presume that those who murder Blacks do NOT receive
> > > the DP as often as those who murder Whites.
Aarghhhhhhh!!!!!!
> >
> > What is it with you? What strange demon has entered
> > your mind and completely deranged it? You admit almost
> > gaily that the American Justice System is racist and yet
> > it is biased IN FAVOUR OF THE BLACK merely
> > because its treats black on black murders more leniently
> > than black on white murders. Try to get this fact into
> > your head THE AMERICAN JUSTICE SYSTEM DOES
> > NOT CARE ABOUT BLACKS MURDERING BLACKS,
> > IT DOES CARE ABOUT BLACKS MURDERING
> > WHITES.
> >
> Quite a performance... Every thought of going on the
> stage? Nonetheless it is YOUR facts that are incorrect.
> Given the argument. The Justice System cares about
> ANY RACE murdering Whites. By you trying to 'single
> out' Blacks murdering Whites, you have tried to shift
> the argument to a false premise. It cares as much about
> Whites murdering Whites, or Latinos murdering Whites,
> or Asians murdering Whites. It is the victim rather than
> the murderer that receives this irrational attention (if in
> fact our argument, which is assumed simply for the
> argument, is true). In addition, if it does not care about
> Blacks murdering Blacks, that actually SHIELDS 94%
> of those who murder those Blacks, since THEY are Black.
Aarghhhhhhh!!!!!!
>
> > > Simply
> > > because almost EVERY murder of a Black is COMMITTED
> > > by a Black. The reasons for that are well-established, but
> > > have NOTHING to do with the DP. They have to do with the fact
> > > that our society has diminished the Black so often and for
> > > so long, that THEY start to believe THEY are worthless,
> > > and life becomes less meaningful to them. But do not
> > > for an instant believe that eliminating the DP will do ANYTHING
> > > toward racism, because it is not racist, in respect to
> > > Blacks being SINGLED out for execution. Since Whites
> > > murder Whites more than Blacks murder Whites, and
> > > those who murder Whites are more likely to receive the
> > > DP, it is fairly obvious which race benefits from that
> > > 'fact' (if it is some sort of 'fact').
> >
> > The above adds up to a zero like so many of your
> > arguments of late.
> >
> And your counter-argument??? Please. You've tried over
> and over in this argument to twist the fact that it is not about
> Blacks murdering Whites. Because it is about ALL RACES
> murdering Whites. There is no trace of racism in the
> application of the DP in respect to those who murder Whites.
Perhaps you really believe that and if you do than I
have to believe that the arguments that you have pursued
elsewhere have completely addled your senses.
> While we both agree that Blacks who murder Blacks are not
> likely to receive the DP, but you seem oblivious to the fact that
> this means fully 94% of all murderers who murder Blacks are
> thus less likely to receive the DP because THEY are Blacks.
Do you get more stupid by the kilobyte? Does nothing
penetrate that skull of yours?
> > >
> > > > >. Blacks murder Blacks at
> > > > > a horrendous rate, and that can be attributed to racism, and
> > > > > injustice in society, which creates a feeling of worthlessness by
> > > > > Blacks themselves, there's hardly any denying this. But this
> > > > > certainly cannot be attributed to the DP itself. It is a problem
> > > > > that society must solve, totally separate from the use of the DP
> > > > > for murderers. So, when it comes to the DP, Blacks are LESS
likely
> > > > > to receive the DP since almost all their murders are committed
> > > > > against other Blacks, and those DO NOT result in the DP.
> > > > >
> > > > > PV
> >
> > You care deeply about racism in America. Of that I have
> > no doubt - the tragedy is that you support a penalty that, in the
> > biased manner it is implemented, helps to consolidate that
> > racism.
> >
> Very untrue. Were the DP to be eliminated it would not affect
> one bit the racism in the Justice System.
Fuck the Justice System, it would benefit the average American
And in the end it would
> be all about excusing ALL murder.
There were 15000 murders in America last year, 66 wretches
were executed. So 14,900 or so were excused anyway
You need to understand, that
> any suggestion that we execute Blacks who murder Blacks, at
> the same rate we execute ALL RACES who murder Whites,
> would result in a quantum leap in the execution of Black murderers.
Agreed and is probably the single greatest reason that the
authorities turn a 'blind eye' to black on black murders but
it is still discrimination and the only way to get rid of that
discrimination is to get rid of the DP. I'll repeat that in
capitals GET RID OF THE DP.
> I could not possibly find that acceptable BECAUSE of the racism
> I see in the Justice System. The racism I see in the Justice System
> is rather counter-balanced (IMHO not nearly enough however) by the
> fact that many Black murderers of Black victims, 94% of all those
> who murder Black victims, are less likely to receive the DP. In
> addition it effectively 'insulates' the DP from those flaws I see in
> the Justice System. If we do not sentence to the DP, they cannot
> possible translate INTO the DP. They stay totally distinct from
> that penalty, and remain the flaws I see in the Justice System
> which NEVER extend into the DP, simply because of the fact
> that Blacks who murder Blacks are not as frequently sentenced
> to the DP. Further, this certainly means we will conceivably not
> execute a convicted Black murderer of a Black victim, who might
> actually be innocent, because of the flaws in the Justice System.
> Or at the least, it reduces our chances of doing so rather dramatically.
> And I am all in favor of such a reduction in the chances of doing
> so, without accepting anything in the way of abolishing the DP.
> Since in the end, murder cannot be excused.
>
>
> PV
>
The Death penalty brings no benefits to the citizens of the
United States. They do not sleep safer in their beds
at night because of its use. Far worse regimes than
theirs use America's DP as a justification for keeping
their own vile means of execution often without what
we call due process. It IS discriminatory and is therefore
unfair. It is a burden that America in these troubled
times can well do without.
John Rennie
> Le Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:04:04 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com>
a écrit :
>
> { snip right-royal spanking delivered to LDB }
>
> > You are just being silly and you take every opportunity to wander
> > away from the point. You have to, of course, because I have proven
> > my case time and time again. Unlike some I take no pleasure in
> > this - well, not that much pleasure. Oh. all right, I am enjoying
> > myself.
>
> allow him to let it go, even when he has been shown to be farting into
> his 'voice recognition' software.
>
> Even if we were to leave aside his grammatical _faux pas_ (and they must
> surely run into three figures, now), we still have his belief that O.J.
> Simpson was 'found guilty in a civil court', and the latest, the
> greatest, his 'come-and-spank-me' inability to digest and analyse legal
> texts and decisions ... his belief that Rule 25[b][2] (which he hadn't
> even _heard of_, until JPB and I gave him a 'heads-up') gave Judge Zobel
> the power to overturn the second degree murder conviction, handed down in
> the Commonwealth v. Woodward case.
>
> Look out for his 2000-line response this evening, resorting to his usual
> tactic of emotional blackmail directed at you, and threats and abuse
directed
> at the rest of us, to cover up for the fact that he once again dropped his
> trousers, pulled his cheeks apart, and let rip 10 cubic litres of
emptyness,
> under the guise of a usenet 'post'.
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan
BTW I have invented a word. Have you spotted it? I checked
the OED and it didn't exist much to my surprise but it looked good
and it sounded good and that was justification enough for Shakespeare
when he coined words like 'multitudinous' so it's good enough for me.
incubus
> Le Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:57:17 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a
écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> Well when I was doing 'three to five' for my 'computer crimes', my
> >> family wanted to come and see me ... and I considered visiting Drewl
> >> in gaol when he got sent down for federal telecommunications offences,
> >> but I couldn't get out to the United States.
>
> > I know a chap who is on life license, she supports the death penalty
>
> Transsexual, is it ..?
oops. well you never know what they get up to behind closed doors
>
> { snip }
>
> >> > Those that oppose have not lost a loved one to this murderer.
>
> >> Pardon ?
> >>
> >> url:http://www.mvfr.org/
> >>
> >> These people _have_ lost loved ones to murderers ... and they _oppose_
> >> the execution of the latter.
>
> > that is up to them. They are more forgiving than i would be
>
> Well, to be honest, they're probably more forgiving than _I_ would be,
> but thankfully, I haven't had to find that out.
Let us hope you and I never do.
>In any case, that's
> not what's important.
I think it is
>You stated,
>
> 'Those that oppose have not lost a loved one to this murderer'
>
> This is patently incorrect, as the persons who created the website 'Murder
> Victims' Families for Reconciliation', obviously _have_ lost loved ones
> to criminal homicide.
nonono i said
'Those that oppose have not lost a loved one to "this" murderer'
>
> { snip }
>
> >> Their families have rights, of course, but to claim that deathie
relatives
> >> have rights, whilst caring, abolitionist relatives do not, should
incite
> >> a cry of 'sauce for the goose ?'
>
> > they all have rights mate. even the murderer untill they strap him to
the
> > gurney.
>
> What do you mean 'untill [sic] they strap him to the gurney [sic]' ?
You've
> just said that the dead have rights ... so why should the murderer's
rights
> stop, when he dies ?
oh my god, you are using the sic on me. Don't let Desi get me pv :-)
The dead have rights to justice particularly if they were murdered.
I don't beleive that if a single person with no family is murdered then the
murderer should be let off
Though i don't remember saying "the dead have rights" other than to justice.
>
> { snip }
>
> >> > The family of the murder victims will never get closure but they will
> > get
> >> > some justice.
>
> >> 'Justice' is a word hijacked by the deathies. Justice cannot exist as
> > long
> >> as only the innocent use it.
>
> > letting murdereres get away with it certainly is not justice
>
> I would tend to agree.
I would hope so. You seem far to reasonable to argue against that one
>Fortunately, almost sixty percent of the
> world's countries, consider that locking up the murdering fucker, for
> a long period of time (sometimes forever), does not constitute letting
> him get 'away with it'.
Maybe, but we all know that long term prisoners adapt and makes lives for
themselves inside at the taxpayers expense. My murderer friend did 17 years
before being parrolled. He is on parol for the rest of his life but he
doesn't if he does get sent back insode because prison is all he knows. It
is his life
>
> { snip }
Jürgen
Richard J. schrieb in Nachricht <3D6C3C43...@hotmail.com>...
Article 1.051
http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/cp/cp0000100toc.html
*******************************************
Firstly, can you verify that the US have a population of around 280,000,000
people, or would you believe what others counted, figured out and estimated?
Secondly, I never claimed a limitation of defense costs fixed in the
theoretical law. Indeed, to proscribe in a law *any* maximum for defense
costs were plain silliness. I am somewhat surprised that you apparently did
a search for a so illogical term.
I read and heard the amount of $2.500 as what is spent for the defense in
death penalty cases in Texas several times and from several different
sources. Of course I can not verify this claim ad hoc. It at least shows no
logical discrepancy to the manifold special stories spreading on a weekly
basis about the state of the defense in Texanian capital trials.
To calculate the amount factually spent for the defense in capital trials I
deem not an unsolvable problem, Richard. I think the total budget afforded
for public defense and the number of cases give a first hint to the average
sum afforded per trial, and the examination of a statistically relevant
number of capital cases in respect of the defense-costs will permit a sound
statement.
A thoroughly practical consideration is the origin of the $2.500 claim, and
I am confident that serious journalists are doing a proper job in research
and statistics.
Again: What are reporting your Republican media and references? Are they
talking of significantly higher amounts for public defense in DP-cases, or
is the inconvenient topic embedded in peaceful silence by the pro-DP-side?
Only who would hold a handful of cards himself is enabled to call his
opposite's hand, Richard.
Jürgen
Jürgen
A Planet Visitor schrieb in Nachricht ...
I left afew highlights in:
>
.....So if those who murder
>Black victims are not as likely to receive the DP, then we find a
>much greater ratio of Black murderers will NOT receive the
>DP then White murderers of Black victims.
......And in respect to
>Black victims, fully 94% are murdered by Black murderers.
>Thus if we execute a lesser number of murderer who murder
>Blacks than who murder Whites, that 94% has a much
>LESS chance of falling within the same parameters used to
>sentence those who murder Whites.
>>
......Given that those
>of ANY race who murder White victims are more likely to
>receive the DP, there is no racism in THAT itself, in respect
>to WHO we execute. Since 85% of White victims were
>murdered by White murderers. While in respect to those
>who murder Black victims, it's rather obvious that means that
>a LESSER number of Black murderers will receive the DP,
>since those murderers constitute 94% of ALL murderers of
>Black victims.
>
> If the victim is White... there is NO racism in selection of those
>who have murdered those Whites.
>
Well, let's get this point straight. 40% of executed are African Americans,
remember? If now almost no Black victim demands in the eyes of prosecutors
and juries for the DP, then it is sound to conclude that out of the 6% Black
offenders having killed a White an exorbitant number is sentenced to death
AND EXECUTED. Plain and hard racism, Sir.
>If the victim is Black... there is a negative effect in respect to the
>DP for Blacks. Because 1) Those who murder Blacks are
>less likely to receive the DP, and 2) 94% of those who murder Blacks
>are Black murderers.
>
.....We would do much better to tackle racism in society at
>large, and in my perception of it in the Justice System, without
>wasting our time and effort in believing we can cosmetically solve
>racism by excusing murder, even if we might now be doing so in
>respect to NOT sentencing to the DP those murderers who murder
>Black victims.
......While we both agree that Blacks who murder Blacks are not
>likely to receive the DP, but you seem oblivious to the fact that
>this means fully 94% of all murderers who murder Blacks are
>thus less likely to receive the DP because THEY are Blacks.
Nope. Murdering an African American causes no death sentence because your
entire apparatus is not interested in the fate of Black victims.
>> >
.....Further, this certainly means we will conceivably not
>execute a convicted Black murderer of a Black victim, who might
>actually be innocent, because of the flaws in the Justice System.
>Or at the least, it reduces our chances of doing so rather dramatically.
Did I get this right? In a sudden you discover the advantages of not
executing people?
But: What has happened with your argumentation, Sir? You wanted to sell that
prosecutors and juries are accurately and exclusively seeking the death
penalty in cases where an aggravated continuing threat is likely. This
should cause AUTOMATICALLY a non-racistic DP, as the criteria for a death
sentence are clear and race-independent. A Black having murdered a Black
must according to your claims and criteria sentenced by the jury to death
exactly if a continuing threat indicates so, isn't it? Do you want to sell
now that murdering Blacks makes the offender principledly less threatening,
since murdering a Black warrants almost never the DP?
You should face the fact that this 20kB-post led your complete previous
argumentative construction as absurdum.
Jürgen
John Rennie
"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:akja0h$843$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
>
snip
>
> .....Further, this certainly means we will conceivably not
> >execute a convicted Black murderer of a Black victim, who might
> >actually be innocent, because of the flaws in the Justice System.
> >Or at the least, it reduces our chances of doing so rather dramatically.
>
> Did I get this right? In a sudden you discover the advantages of not
> executing people?
Oh well done, Jurgen (I haven't got a bloody oblate or whatever its called,
Desmond so don't tell me off). I missed that give away remark buried
in the mass of PV's verbiage. We may well have picked up a reformed
retentionist.
John Rennie
> Le Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:17:42 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com>
a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> > Oh well done, Jurgen (I haven't got a bloody oblate or whatever its
called,
> > Desmond so don't tell me off).
>
> it is referred to as a diaeresis.
>
> Fuck, am I just a mine of useless information, or what ..? ;-)
>
> { snip }
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan
Whereas I am a mine of quite useful information. However,
I don't know where to find my umlaut. No rude replies please.
Jürgen
John Rennie schrieb in Nachricht ...
>
>"Jürgen" <K.J.H...@t-online.de> wrote in message
>news:akja0h$843$00$1...@news.t-online.com...
>>
snip
I missed that give away remark buried
>in the mass of PV's verbiage.
Indeed one has to develop a technics of 'cross-reading' PV's balloons. What
works pretty fine is to skip passages showing an INCREASED rate of
CAPITALIZED words. The large explanations of simple points are thoroughly
avoidable without missing anything.
We may well have picked up a reformed
>retentionist.
:-)
Jürgen
John Rennie
> Le Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:43:48 +0000, Desmond Coughlan
<pasdespa...@zeouane.org> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> > Right, well I'm flying by the seat of my pants right now, as I
> > don't have access to a Windows machine, but try clicking on 'Start'
> > followed by 'Programs' (sic), and then 'Accessories', and then
> > 'Character Map'. In there, you can insert all manner of exotic
> > characters, and I seem to remember that you can even define shortcuts
> > to insert certain characters.
>
> If you don't have the Character Map, then go to Start --> Settings -->
> Control Panel --> Add/Remove Programs (sic).
>
> One of the tabs in there (I don't recall which) is 'Windows installation'
> or something. Click on it, go into 'accessories', and then 'check' (sic)
> the box with Character Map. You'll need your Window 98 ... no, wait ...
> I've used your laptop .. oh, fuck, it's Windows XP, isn't it ?
>
> Right, all bets are off ... you're on your own, matey. :-)
>
> --
> Desmond Coughlan
Of course I needn't bother with all that. I could
..
just type Jurgen. Not very convincing is it?
Richard J.
I look at the official census which is required by LAW.
BTW, the official count is slightly over 270,000,000
>
> Secondly, I never claimed a limitation of defense costs fixed in the
> theoretical law. Indeed, to proscribe in a law *any* maximum for defense
> costs were plain silliness. I am somewhat surprised that you apparently did
> a search for a so illogical term.
The $2,500 figure is, however, a finite figure. Counties pay so much
per hour for indigent criminal defense, but as far as I can tell, there
is no finite figure. The needs of the defense, approved by the court,
determine what the defense spends.
>
> I read and heard the amount of $2.500 as what is spent for the defense in
> death penalty cases in Texas several times and from several different
> sources. Of course I can not verify this claim ad hoc. It at least shows no
> logical discrepancy to the manifold special stories spreading on a weekly
> basis about the state of the defense in Texanian capital trials.
Neither does it show reality when faced with the facts of the law that
controls such things.
>
> To calculate the amount factually spent for the defense in capital trials I
> deem not an unsolvable problem, Richard. I think the total budget afforded
> for public defense and the number of cases give a first hint to the average
> sum afforded per trial, and the examination of a statistically relevant
> number of capital cases in respect of the defense-costs will permit a sound
> statement.
Fine. Show me the verifiable statistics, the data.
> A thoroughly practical consideration is the origin of the $2.500 claim, and
> I am confident that serious journalists are doing a proper job in research
> and statistics.
I have less confidence in journalists to accurately report a story than
I do politicians' promises. Considering what I think of politicians,
does that tell you what I think of journalists in general?
>
> Again: What are reporting your Republican media and references? Are they
> talking of significantly higher amounts for public defense in DP-cases, or
> is the inconvenient topic embedded in peaceful silence by the pro-DP-side?
I've never seen them report it one way or another. The law calls for
representation regardless of costs. IMO, they are not looking so much
at the budget, but attempting to fulfill the necessities of the legal
requirements.
>
> Only who would hold a handful of cards himself is enabled to call his
> opposite's hand, Richard.
>
> Jürgen
How do you know I don't? Lay your cards on the table and see if I'm
bluffing. You made the bid, and I called. Show time.
--
Teflon
Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:29:51 +0000
>
>Le Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:17:42 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>> Oh well done, Jurgen (I haven't got a bloody oblate or whatever its called,
>> Desmond so don't tell me off).
>
>It's called an umlaut, John. Its French name is tréma, and in English,
>it is referred to as a diaeresis.
>
>Fuck, am I just a mine of useless information, or what ..? ;-)
>
>{ snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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cp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:29:51 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 19
>Message-ID: <slrnamqclv.agh.p...@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:54:26 +0000
>
>Le Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:54:39 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Right, all bets are off ... you're on your own, matey. :-)
>
>> Of course I needn't bother with all that. I could
>> ..
>> just type Jurgen. Not very convincing is it?
>
>No, not really ... try 'Juergen'.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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>8.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:54:26 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 17
>Message-ID: <slrnamqe42.agh.p...@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:49:09 +0000
>
>Le Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:43:48 +0000, Desmond Coughlan
><pasdespa...@zeouane.org> a écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>> Right, well I'm flying by the seat of my pants right now, as I
>> don't have access to a Windows machine, but try clicking on 'Start'
>> followed by 'Programs' (sic), and then 'Accessories', and then
>> 'Character Map'. In there, you can insert all manner of exotic
>> characters, and I seem to remember that you can even define shortcuts
>> to insert certain characters.
>
>If you don't have the Character Map, then go to Start --> Settings -->
>Control Panel --> Add/Remove Programs (sic).
>
>One of the tabs in there (I don't recall which) is 'Windows installation'
>or something. Click on it, go into 'accessories', and then 'check' (sic)
>the box with Character Map. You'll need your Window 98 ... no, wait ...
>I've used your laptop .. oh, fuck, it's Windows XP, isn't it ?
>
>Right, all bets are off ... you're on your own, matey. :-)
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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rlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:49:09 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 26
>Message-ID: <slrnamqdq5.agh.p...@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:43:48 +0000
>
>Le Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:38:15 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> It's called an umlaut, John. Its French name is tréma, and in English,
>>> it is referred to as a diaeresis.
>>>
>>> Fuck, am I just a mine of useless information, or what ..? ;-)
>
>> Whereas I am a mine of quite useful information.
>
>Well if you say so ... :-)
>
>> However,
>> I don't know where to find my umlaut. No rude replies please.
>
>Right, well I'm flying by the seat of my pants right now, as I
>don't have access to a Windows machine, but try clicking on 'Start'
>followed by 'Programs' (sic), and then 'Accessories', and then
>'Character Map'. In there, you can insert all manner of exotic
>characters, and I seem to remember that you can even define shortcuts
>to insert certain characters.
>
>Another way is to hold down the ALT key, and type a four-digit code on
>the numeric keypad, corresponding to the character you wish to insert.
>I don't know the codes, as I have a French 'AZERTY' keyboard, and the
>tréma is already there. Perhaps LDB can help you, as I have noted that
>he spells Jürgen's name correctly, and I _assume_ that he does so using
>an American keyboard.
>
>A quick search on google, turned up this ...
>
>url:http://home.earthlink.net/~awinkelried/keyboard_shortcuts.html
>
>HTH.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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or-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 20:43:48 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 41
>Message-ID: <slrnamqdg3.agh.p...@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:25:59 +0000
>
>Le Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:04:04 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
>écrit :
>
>{ snip right-royal spanking delivered to LDB }
>
>> You are just being silly and you take every opportunity to wander
>> away from the point. You have to, of course, because I have proven
>> my case time and time again. Unlike some I take no pleasure in
>> this - well, not that much pleasure. Oh. all right, I am enjoying
>> myself.
>
>It _is_ fun, isn't it ? The problem is that his king-sized ego won't
>allow him to let it go, even when he has been shown to be farting into
>his 'voice recognition' software.
>
>Even if we were to leave aside his grammatical _faux pas_ (and they must
>surely run into three figures, now), we still have his belief that O.J.
>Simpson was 'found guilty in a civil court', and the latest, the
>greatest, his 'come-and-spank-me' inability to digest and analyse legal
>texts and decisions ... his belief that Rule 25[b][2] (which he hadn't
>even _heard of_, until JPB and I gave him a 'heads-up') gave Judge Zobel
>the power to overturn the second degree murder conviction, handed down in
>the Commonwealth v. Woodward case.
>
>Look out for his 2000-line response this evening, resorting to his usual
>tactic of emotional blackmail directed at you, and threats and abuse directed
>at the rest of us, to cover up for the fact that he once again dropped his
>trousers, pulled his cheeks apart, and let rip 10 cubic litres of emptyness,
>under the guise of a usenet 'post'.
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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R!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 14:25:59 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 34
>Message-ID: <slrnampnbm.8v9.p...@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:56:34 +0000
>
>Le Wed, 28 Aug 2002 04:43:17 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a
>écrit :
>>> > The above adds up to a zero like so many of your
>>> > arguments of late.
>
>>> It is sad when even _you_ have to point out to him what a crass fool
>>> he is being.
>>>
>>> My only regret is that it took you so long.
>
>> Your only regret is that beneath your thin veneer of posturing,
>> lies one of the most petulant personalities we will ever see.
>> You're obviously still out looking for 'friends.' BTW Judge Zobel??
>> See http://www.cnn.com/US/9711/10/au.pair.ruling/
>
>LOL ... it is a truly wonderful irony that you were so sure that you
>were right, that you posted the same URL in around ten or eleven
>posts last night.
>
>The irony is that the URL which you posted, contained exactly the
>same text as the URL which _I_ posted, and which showed that you
>are again talking through a hole inbetween your 'butt' (sic) cheeks.
>I even provided the _prosecution_ argument, which confirms what every
>single reference, both here and in the United States, states : the
>provisions of Rule 25[b][2].
>
>In, fact, the beautiful 'double-whammy' that I dealt you last night, was
>that I pre-empted you with Judge Zobel's ruling, and that said ruling
>shows that Rule 25[b][2] only allows a judge to reduce a murder conviction
>to a lesser offence.
>
>Carry on copying and pasting your 'link'. It's the same ruling that I
>provided, and it only shows that you're an idiot. After all, the
>defence can ask the judge to drop his trousers and 'moon' at the public
>gallery, if they wish. That the judge denies such a motion, does not
>mean that he would have been 'empowered' to grant it.
>
>{ cue table-thumping, finger-pointing, repetitive 'ROTLFMAO', and claims
> that LDB has 'won'. <yawn> ... O.J. Simpson, anyone ? }
>
>ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
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ni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-1
>98-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 12:56:34 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 47
>Message-ID: <slrnampi41.8oq.p...@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:26:00 +0000
>
>Le Tue, 27 Aug 2002 21:57:17 +0100, incubus <inc...@hellfire.com> a écrit :
>
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Well when I was doing 'three to five' for my 'computer crimes', my
>>> family wanted to come and see me ... and I considered visiting Drewl
>>> in gaol when he got sent down for federal telecommunications offences,
>>> but I couldn't get out to the United States.
>
>> I know a chap who is on life license, she supports the death penalty
> ^^^^ ^^^
>
>Transsexual, is it ..?
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> > Those that oppose have not lost a loved one to this murderer.
>
>>> Pardon ?
>>>
>>> url:http://www.mvfr.org/
>>>
>>> These people _have_ lost loved ones to murderers ... and they _oppose_
>>> the execution of the latter.
>
>> that is up to them. They are more forgiving than i would be
>
>Well, to be honest, they're probably more forgiving than _I_ would be,
>but thankfully, I haven't had to find that out. In any case, that's
>not what's important. You stated,
>
> 'Those that oppose have not lost a loved one to this murderer'
>
>This is patently incorrect, as the persons who created the website 'Murder
>Victims' Families for Reconciliation', obviously _have_ lost loved ones
>to criminal homicide.
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Their families have rights, of course, but to claim that deathie relatives
>>> have rights, whilst caring, abolitionist relatives do not, should incite
>>> a cry of 'sauce for the goose ?'
>
>> they all have rights mate. even the murderer untill they strap him to the
>> gurney.
>
>What do you mean 'untill [sic] they strap him to the gurney [sic]' ? You've
>just said that the dead have rights ... so why should the murderer's rights
>stop, when he dies ?
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> > The family of the murder victims will never get closure but they will
>> get
>>> > some justice.
>
>>> 'Justice' is a word hijacked by the deathies. Justice cannot exist as
>> long
>>> as only the innocent use it.
>
>> letting murdereres get away with it certainly is not justice
>
>I would tend to agree. Fortunately, almost sixty percent of the
>world's countries, consider that locking up the murdering fucker, for
>a long period of time (sometimes forever), does not constitute letting
>him get 'away with it'.
>
>{ snip }
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:26:00 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 74
>Message-ID: <slrnampqs7.945.p...@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:55:44 +0000
>
>Le Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:50:17 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a
>écrit :
>
>>> > You are just being silly and you take every opportunity to wander
>>> > away from the point. You have to, of course, because I have proven
>>> > my case time and time again. Unlike some I take no pleasure in
>>> > this - well, not that much pleasure. Oh. all right, I am enjoying
>>> > myself.
>
>{ snip }
>
>>> Look out for his 2000-line response this evening, resorting to his usual
>>> tactic of emotional blackmail directed at you, and threats and abuse
>> directed
>>> at the rest of us, to cover up for the fact that he once again dropped his
>>> trousers, pulled his cheeks apart, and let rip 10 cubic litres of
>> emptyness,
>>> under the guise of a usenet 'post'.
>
>> BTW I have invented a word. Have you spotted it? I checked
>> the OED and it didn't exist much to my surprise but it looked good
>> and it sounded good and that was justification enough for Shakespeare
>> when he coined words like 'multitudinous' so it's good enough for me.
>
>I didn't, no. My newsreader deletes posts after I respond to them,
>so I shall have to wait until it appears in google. Or you could put
>me out of my misery, and tell me which word you mean ... :-)
>
>--
>Desmond Coughlan |CUNT#1 YGL#4 YFC#1 YFB#1 UKRMMA#14 two#38
>Yamaha FJR1300 |BONY#48 ANORAK#11
>desmond @ zeouane.org
>http: // www . zeouane . org
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
>Path:
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!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!e117.dhcp212-198-68.noos.FR!not-for-mail
>From: Desmond Coughlan <pasdespa...@zeouane.org>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:55:44 +0000
>Organization: None
>Lines: 32
>Message-ID: <slrnampsjv.945.p...@lievre.voute.net>
>References: <1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com>
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Dr. Dolly Coughlan
<abc...@zbqytr.ykq> writes:
>Subject: Re: Death penalty
>From: "A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
>Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 04:43:16 GMT
> ------------------- Headers --------------------
>
>Path:
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com!cyclone.tampabay.rr.com!news-post.tampabay.rr.com!twister.tampabay.rr.
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>-mail
>From: "A Planet Visitor" <abc...@zbqytr.ykq>
>Newsgroups: alt.activism.death-penalty
>References: <1549e393.02082...@posting.google.com>
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>Organization: RoadRunner - Central Florida
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
pasdespa...@zeouane.org wrote:
> Le Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:17:42 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com>
> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> > Oh well done, Jurgen (I haven't got a bloody oblate or whatever its
> > called,
> > Desmond so don't tell me off).
>
> It's called an umlaut, John.
As are the denizens of Germany, on occasion. I was most amused when I
heard the word used in that sense.
> Its French name is tréma, and in English,
> it is referred to as a diaeresis.
I thought that a diaeresis was what you got when you suffer from the
after-effects of last night's vindaloo and lager session...
> Fuck, am I just a mine of useless information, or what ..? ;-)
Don't make us start... ;)
Mr Q. Z. D.
--
Drinker, systems administrator, wannabe writer, musician and all-round bastard.
"...Base 8 is just like base 10 really... ((o))
If you're missing two fingers." - Tom Lehrer ((O))
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
pasdespa...@zeouane.org wrote:
> Le Wed, 28 Aug 2002 21:38:15 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com>
> a écrit :
>
> { snip }
>
> >> It's called an umlaut, John. Its French name is tréma, and in
> >> English,
> >> it is referred to as a diaeresis.
> >>
> >> Fuck, am I just a mine of useless information, or what ..? ;-)
>
> > Whereas I am a mine of quite useful information.
>
> Well if you say so ... :-)
>
> > However,
> > I don't know where to find my umlaut. No rude replies please.
>
> Right, well I'm flying by the seat of my pants right now, as I
> don't have access to a Windows machine, but try clicking on 'Start'
> followed by 'Programs' (sic), and then 'Accessories', and then
> 'Character Map'. In there, you can insert all manner of exotic
> characters, and I seem to remember that you can even define shortcuts
> to insert certain characters.
>
> Another way is to hold down the ALT key, and type a four-digit code on
> the numeric keypad, corresponding to the character you wish to insert.
And people wonder why I use a Macintosh...
Strewth! Stone the bleedin' crows! Bugger me!
On a Mac, you simply hold down the option key and type "u", followed by
the letter above which you wish to place the umlaut. Hence, my overly
pedantic spelling of "naïve" is quite simple. Likewise acutes - hold
down the option key and press "e", followed by the letter above which
you wish to place the acute. Note that Apple, in their wisdom, have
chosen easily memorisable letters to go with the option key. Most
umlauts happen above the letter u, so it's the u key. Most acutes
happen with es, so it's the e key. Cedillas (sp?) are obtained by
typing option-c, like ço. :)
Graves are obtained using the backtick key (it looks like a grave
accent, after all). Also, dipthongs are a doddle, so if I want to write
f¦tus correctly, I can.
And, what's more, if you Intel weenies out there want to flex your
muscles and say that Macs aren't for real men, I can smugly point out
that they're easy to use and help me forget about the day-to-day trials
of administering million-dollar systems so, if you mock me, I can say
"here's 50c, kid - put it towards a real computer."
Let the OT platform wars commence!
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
And you're presumably using a proportional font so it appears completely
wrong on my news reader which, sensibly, uses a monospaced font. ;)
A Planet Visitor
> Le Wed, 28 Aug 2002 04:43:17 GMT, A Planet Visitor <abc...@zbqytr.ykq> a écrit :
> >> > The above adds up to a zero like so many of your
> >> > arguments of late.
>
> >> It is sad when even _you_ have to point out to him what a crass fool
> >> he is being.
> >>
> >> My only regret is that it took you so long.
>
> > Your only regret is that beneath your thin veneer of posturing,
> > lies one of the most petulant personalities we will ever see.
> > You're obviously still out looking for 'friends.' BTW Judge Zobel??
> > See http://www.cnn.com/US/9711/10/au.pair.ruling/
>
> were right, that you posted the same URL in around ten or eleven
> posts last night.
>
ignorance. I always try to please the crowd.
> The irony is that the URL which you posted, contained exactly the
> same text as the URL which _I_ posted, and which showed that you
> are again talking through a hole inbetween your 'butt' (sic) cheeks.
> I even provided the _prosecution_ argument, which confirms what every
> single reference, both here and in the United States, states : the
> provisions of Rule 25[b][2].
>
Umm.. FDP... Section 2... Section 2...Section 2. Nothing to do with
Rule 25(b)(2), which is only applicable to another of the three motions
offered by the defense, that being the motion in Section 4...section 4...
section 4.
> In, fact, the beautiful 'double-whammy' that I dealt you last night, was
> that I pre-empted you with Judge Zobel's ruling, and that said ruling
> shows that Rule 25[b][2] only allows a judge to reduce a murder conviction
> to a lesser offence.
>
Which was never a question. The QUESTION was answered in
Section 2... "Motion for a Directed Finding of Not Guilty." And the
judge ruling "Measuring the evidence by this strict standard, my duty
inescapably mandates my denying the motion in its entirety." How
might rule 25(b)(2) apply to that section, since that rule was used to
JUSTIFY the reduction in the verdict? If it had anything to do with
the motion in section 2, it would have been DENIED. Since Section
2 was denied in its entirety. In fact the motions are distinct, with
one being denied and the other being ruled as applicable under
the guidelines of the rule. The RULE has NOTHING to do with
the denial of the motion to find not guilty.
> Carry on copying and pasting your 'link'. It's the same ruling that I
> provided, and it only shows that you're an idiot. After all, the
> defence can ask the judge to drop his trousers and 'moon' at the public
> gallery, if they wish. That the judge denies such a motion, does not
> mean that he would have been 'empowered' to grant it.
Most certainly I will. Since that is the only thing that could
possibly penetrate that concrete head of yours. And your
'childish' petulance is now more and more apparent. And
Section 2 most certainly DOES show he was 'empowered'
to grant it. And the appeal court confirmed the ruling
of the judge. Had he NOT been empowered, it would have required
an entire different ruling. The Appeal Court stated --
"On November 10, 1997, after hearing argument on Woodward's
motion for postjudgment relief, the judge reduced the jury's verdict
from murder to involuntary manslaughter, acting pursuant to Mass.
R. Crim. P. 25 (b) (2), 378 Mass. 896 (1979), and vacated the life
sentence. He denied Woodward's request for a required finding of
not guilty or for a new trial."
All the trial judge findings were upheld by the Appeal Court.
There was no indication that the trial judge had not been 'empowered'
to rule on those three SEPARATE motions.
> { cue table-thumping, finger-pointing, repetitive 'ROTLFMAO', and claims
> that LDB has 'won'. <yawn> ... O.J. Simpson, anyone ? }
>
> ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
Everyone can see that you've become very hysterical here, FDP.
You really should just 'take your thumps,' and try to put it behind
you. It's already in my 'booklet,' so you needn't worry about me
bringing it up occasionally, because I will. Right up there with
'the dead cannot be honored,' but 'their memory' (as if they HAVE
a memory) can.
PV
A Planet Visitor
"John Rennie" <j.re...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:vL4b9.2455$db.6...@newsfep1-win.server.ntli.net...
'racism' which works in favor of those who are often unjustly
convicted is something 'bad.' But I see it only as a
counter-balance. If I presume (and I do), that a greater number
of Blacks who are innocent are convicted, than are Whites
who are innocent, two things develop from that --
1) I would work to CHANGE the Justice System in the way
it finds guilt. With the understanding that abolishing the entire
system is impossible.
2) I would hope that we execute fewer who are falsely convicted,
consistent with my belief that executing NO murderer is also
not a reasonable conclusion
That being said, it is perfectly rational that I would hope we
EXECUTE fewer Black murderers. Since the possibility of
executing an innocent thus increases. I fully accept the
possibility of executing AN innocent. I would just hope that
we do so as seldom as possible, consistent with my
understanding that the 794 proven murderers we have
executed, had they not been executed, would have murdered
many more innocents than there could possibly be innocents
among those 794.
> The Justice Department conducted an
> > extensive examination of racism in the DP and their findings after
> > a review of 950 cases showed no evidence of racial bias. See
> > http://www.aclu.org/news/2001/w060701a.html
> > It is simply unconscionable of you to distort my argument in
> > such a way.
>
> Blimey! Me distort YOUR argument. You are the greatest
> distorter (forgive ugly word) of other people's arguments on
> this news group. Even when you have a good case which
> happens sometimes, you rarely miss the opportunity to
> distort, fabricate or invent a strawdog which makes you
> the laughing stock that you have become over the past
> few years. You only have to see how you are attempting to
> distort my argument above to see how true my accusation
> is.
Well, I don't try to CHANGE the meaning of 'ALL RACES' to
'BLACKS.'
> It's ultimate penalty is used when ANYONE
> > murders a White. You keep implying what is nowhere to
> > be found. The Justice System certainly (IMHO) doesn't
> > care that much about Blacks committing crimes against
> > other Blacks. But that has NOTHING to do with the DP in
> > respect to sending more Blacks to execution. In fact, if
> > it exists it means LESS Blacks get sent to execution.
>
> It really can be so wearisome when you deliberately
> (I am now sure it is deliberate) miss the point. I'll
> try just the once more: If the Justice System doesn't care
> about Blacks murdering other Blacks but DOES care
> about Blacks or other variations of coloured citizens
> murdering Whites and executes more readily when
> that occurs, then the DP is part of that racism. Do
> you or do you not agree that if a Black murders a
> White, s/he has a greater chance of being executed
> than if s/he murders a fellow Black? If you agree
> then you are admitting that the DP is part and parcel
> of the racist Justice System.
Once again, you STILL distort the arugment... only
now you've 'modified' it a bit to say 'Blacks or other
variations of coloured citizens.' We are NOT talking
about that specific group. We are talking about ALL
those who murder Whites. And White murderers
CONSTITUTE 84% of that group. You are trying to
turn 16% into 100%. And if anyone is growing weary
of pointing this out... OVER AND OVER... it's me.
As to your point.. What is agreed (for the sake of this
argument) is that 'ALL RACES' who murder a White,
s/he has a greater chance of being executed than
if s/he murders a Black. The fact that Blacks are
'singled out' from this, is because 94% of Black murders
are committed by Blacks. Look... 15% of white
murders are committed by Blacks. 94% of Black
murders are committed by Blacks. Given (for the
sake of argument) that those who murder Blacks
are LESS likely to receive the DP, I cannot see
what your point is... unless you believe we execute
TOO FEW Blacks. Not executing ANY murderer
will obviously not benefit Black murderers as MUCH
as White murderers. Since of those 94% many are
not now sentenced to the DP. But it will certainly
benefit a great number of White murderers, since 85%
of White murders are committed by Whites, and a
great number of them ARE now sentenced to the
DP.
> >
> > > The system is not being
> > > fairer to blacks by not executing them for the murder
> > > of their brethren, it is saying in the plainest language
> > > possible that a white's life is more valuable than that
> > > of a black. What a message for the Great Society
> > > to deliver not only to its own people but to the rest of
> > > the world.
> > >
> > That is the Justice System. The System... not the DP.
> > Look... See
> > http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_00/00crime2_3.pdf
> > This is the FBI statistics on 6,279 murders in 2000. Of those
> > 3,352 were White victims. With 2,860 White murderer-White victim,
> > and 417 Black murderer-White victim. Thus, the numbers
> > show that there are 8 White murderers for every Black murderer
> > of a White victim. Which is consistent with the U.S. population. And
> > no evidence shows that MORE Black murderers are executed
> > because of White victims then is consistent with the ratio.
>
> You have produced an FBI Report that concerns itself with
> murders and only murders. No comment there whatsoever
> about executions. BTW you managed even then to get your
> figures wrong - the statistics are based on either 12943 or
> 14,697 murders - the tables differ but who am I to criticse
> the FBI?
I believe that is because the table I refer to only recognizes
single Victim/Single Offender. Many offenders commit multiple
murders, which would throw off any 'feel' for the statistic offered.
My opinion... since about the FBI has the total murders listed.
Table 2.7, is the same way. I really don't know how they determined
SV/SO, because Table 2.5 is victims, and 2.6 is offenders.
> > In other
> > words those who MURDER White victims are ALL treated the same.
>
> Bollocks, PV. Where's the evidence - not in your crummy FBI
> report.
Where is YOUR evidence that it's NOT? We are operating here
on a presumed 'report' which you seem unable to provide, while
I have taken the conclusion as an ARGUMENT. Where is the
'proof' of any of your 'argument' that those who murder Whites
are more likely to receive the DP. Statistics... please.
No they are not. Since only 15% of all White murders are
committed by those other than White murderers, your conclusion
is totally wrong. Are you totally excluding White murderers
who murder Whites?
>
> > Your statement WOULD imply racism is used
> > to EXECUTE Blacks My statement is that racism is not used to
> > EXECUTE Blacks. Whites murder Whites at a much greater
> > rate than Blacks murder Whites, and there is no racism inherent
> > WITHIN that group that murder Whites.
>
> Agreed. (Nice to agree on something).
>
What he hell are we arguing about, then??? :-)
>
> > The same percentage
> > of ANY race who murder Whites are sentenced to the DP.
> > Blacks murder Blacks at a much greater rate than Whites murder
> > Blacks. And if there is a perception that those who do are NOT
> > sentenced to the DP, then it MUST work in 'favor' of the Black
> > murderer. Since 94% (From a DOJ report) of ALL Black victims
> > are murdered by Black murderers.
>
> You are just being silly and you take every opportunity to wander
> away from the point. You have to, of course, because I have proven
> my case time and time again. Unlike some I take no pleasure in
> this - well, not that much pleasure. Oh. all right, I am enjoying
> myself.
Wel, I haven't the slightest idea what your 'point' is. If I accept the
premise (unproven) that those who murder Whites (ALL those
who do so -- White -- Black - Other), are more likely to receive
the DP, than those who murder Blacks (ALL those who do so --
White -- Black -- Other), then we can conclude this --
1) 85% of White murders are committed by White murderers.
And White murders are MORE likely to receive the DP. Thus,
85% of THOSE murderers (who are White), are MORE likely
to receive the DP. White murderers MORE LIKELY.
2) 94% of Black murders are committed by Black murderers.
And Black murders are LESS likely to receive the DP. Thus
94% of THOSE murderers (who are Black), are LESS likely
to receive the DP. Black murderers LESS LIKELY.
Chee....
The DOJ has ALREADY done a review (an agency I believe
having much more information and firepower than anyone
here) of 950 cases. I've provided the link above. And it has
shown "no evidence of racial bias" and that black and
Hispanic defendants were, in fact, less likely than white
defendants to be subjected to the death penalty. Which
I can believe is consistent with our argument.
One needs to certainly identify the number and race of MURDERERS
and the number and race of VICTIMS to gain some sort of a handle
on this problem. Are you presuming I intended to show that we had
EXECUTED 3,111 White murderers, and 3,181 Black murderers?
To gain some insight into the ratios of those sentenced to the DP,
we naturally concern ourselves with those ELIGIBLE to be sentenced
to the DP, and that group consists of proven murderers. And to
gain further insight into our 'argument' here, we need to know about
how many Blacks kill Blacks vs. Blacks kill Whites, and how many
Whites kill Blacks vs. Whites kill Whites. That was the PURPOSE
of the statistic... take it or leave it. But if you leave it, provide some
of your own from a recognized source, other than AI, or the ACLU.
> >
> > If the victim is White... there is NO racism in selection of those
> > who have murdered those Whites.
> >
> > If the victim is Black... there is a negative effect in respect to the
> > DP for Blacks. Because 1) Those who murder Blacks are
> > less likely to receive the DP, and 2) 94% of those who murder Blacks
> > are Black murderers.
>
> I know, I know, I know and I know but that's got fuckall to
> do with the price of tomatoes.
Actually, it has EVERYTHING to do with THIS 'argument.' If you
contend it is 'racism' because too few Blacks get the DP, because
they murder Blacks, then perhaps you're in favor of executing
more Black murderers to bring some stability to the ratio of
those who murder Whites and those who murder Blacks. But
realize that by so doing, you are condemning a great number
of Black 'Murderers,' who I have 'assumed' (in my opinion) hold
a much greater risk of being a TRUE innocent, because of the
prejudice I see in the Justice System finding many Blacks who
might be innocent -- guilty. FOR ALL CRIMES.
You may.. But the DP we are discussing is that within the U.S.
>
> We would do much better to tackle racism in society at
> > large, and in my perception of it in the Justice System, without
> > wasting our time and effort in believing we can cosmetically solve
> > racism by excusing murder, even if we might now be doing so in
> > respect to NOT sentencing to the DP those murderers who murder
> > Black victims.
> >
> > Actually, I don't know WHAT you want.
>
> I want the Death Penaltyy abolished in the United States
> of America, that's what I want.
>
And I 'want' long-legged Cindy Crawford, and a month's supply
of Viagra. Tough for both of us. :-)
> Since if we REALLY
> > eliminated the REVERSE bias that I see in the DP, and executed
> > those who murder Blacks at the same rate as ALL THE RACES
> > who murder Whites, the number of Blacks we would necessarily
> > execute would leap dramatically. Why??? Because 94% of all
> > murders of Blacks are COMMITTED by Blacks, and presently we
> > are arguing that those who do so are NOT as likely to receive the
> > DP as those who murder Whites.
> >
> > > > Because it is in the guilty/not guilty phase
> > > > that it exists. IMHO We would STILL send more innocent blacks
> > > > to prison than Whites.
> > >
> > > But you would not be executing them and there is
> > > a difference between being alive than dead. (or perhaps
> > > you don't agree.)
> > >
> > The point is we are not executing Blacks in racism in the DP.
> > Coincident with your 'suggestion' we would also not be executing
> > ANYONE.
>
> Wowee! You have arrived - you took a somewhat circumtuitous
> route but you got there in the end.
>
I never had a doubt that was what your 'intention' was. I was
simply arguing from REALITY. We have the DP, and the
question within that is == does it function to execute more
Blacks in racism. And the answer is NO. An Emphatic
No. Obviously, if we executed NO MURDERER, we would
execute no Black murderers. But that's not the point. If
you're going to 'argue' the DP, that's one thing. But if your
going to argue 'abolish the DP because of racism in
respect to executing Blacks,' that quite another. There
may be a multitude of 'reasons' you might find to abolish
the DP. But a belief that Blacks are DISCRIMINATED
against by executing more Blacks than Whites, as a
ratio of murderers, is a FALSE belief. If anything, abolishing
the DP would benefit White murderers much more than it
would benefit Black murderers. Which is my point. I
will not excuse murder, but I recognize that if we executed
Blacks at the same ratio we do Whites (for murders of
both Blacks and Whites), we would more likely demonstrate
racism, because it infects the guilty/innocent process.
And more Blacks who might not actually BE murderers,
would be sent to execution.
Two things I cannot accept.
1) Abolishing the Justice System totally.
2) Abolishing the DP for ALL murderers.
Thus, I have to form my opinions within the borders of those
two limiting factors.
> One has nothing to do with the other. Because
> > abolishing the DP will not remove racism from the Justice
> > System And it does not EXIST in the DP, in respect to WHO
> > we EXECUTE, as we usually see racism as prejudice against
> > a minority. If you wish to call it 'racism' that we tend to
> > give the DP to some degree more to ANY RACE who murder
> > Whites, and less to some degree to Blacks who murder Blacks,
> > you can do so. But you need to realize that what you call
> > 'racism' actually works to SHIELD many Black murderers from
> > the DP, simply because 94% of Black victims are murdered
> > by Black murderers.
>
> That's a nice way of putting it, isn't it? The System that
> cares so little for what Black does to Black is 'shielding'
> them.
I care little for the TRUE Black murderer. I simply feel
that executing Blacks who murder Blacks, at the same
ratio we execute 'ALL RACES' for murdering Whites, would
truly work against many Blacks, and would certainly
contribute to a greater perception of racism in the U.S.
I really believe that the 'typical' Black (those unfed by
Jackson and Sharpton who are as Bin Laden is to
Islam), finds the DP quite reasonable and necessary
given the level of violence in the Black community.
Where the perception of injustice in the Black community
develops is at the 'Law Enforcement on the Street level.'
And you well know what I mean.
> You missed your vocation, PV. You should have
> been a political 'spin doctor' - you can put an attractive
> gloss on the vilest of acts. One thing is certain we have
> a greater chance of getting rid of the DP in what is left
> of our lifetimes than we have of getting rid of racism. I
> have met Blacks, some American, who are incensed
> by how the DP is applied to Blacks in America; they
> consider it to be one of the last bastions of institutional
> racism.
>
I find just the opposite. And I certainly know a great number
of Blacks, who are OUTRAGED by what they read and see
of Black murderers. How anyone could be incensed about
a penalty that holds Blacks LESS responsible for murder,
is beyond me. I can only assume that the Blacks you
meet wish that MORE Black murderers were executed,
so they could 'catch up' to the White murderers executed.
> > > >The point is that eliminating the
> > > > DP, would NOT reduce racism in the Justice System.
> > > > We send a certain ratio of Black murderers to execution and
> > > > a certain ratio of White murderers to execution. That ratio,
> > > > IF ANYTHING, is biased in FAVOR of the Black, if we
> > > > presume that those who murder Blacks do NOT receive
> > > > the DP as often as those who murder Whites.
>
> Aarghhhhhhh!!!!!!
>
You may find the fact distasteful. But the alternative is even
more so. :-)
>
> > >
> > > What is it with you? What strange demon has entered
> > > your mind and completely deranged it? You admit almost
> > > gaily that the American Justice System is racist and yet
> > > it is biased IN FAVOUR OF THE BLACK merely
> > > because its treats black on black murders more leniently
> > > than black on white murders. Try to get this fact into
> > > your head THE AMERICAN JUSTICE SYSTEM DOES
> > > NOT CARE ABOUT BLACKS MURDERING BLACKS,
> > > IT DOES CARE ABOUT BLACKS MURDERING
> > > WHITES.
> > >
> > Quite a performance... Every thought of going on the
> > stage? Nonetheless it is YOUR facts that are incorrect.
> > Given the argument. The Justice System cares about
> > ANY RACE murdering Whites. By you trying to 'single
> > out' Blacks murdering Whites, you have tried to shift
> > the argument to a false premise. It cares as much about
> > Whites murdering Whites, or Latinos murdering Whites,
> > or Asians murdering Whites. It is the victim rather than
> > the murderer that receives this irrational attention (if in
> > fact our argument, which is assumed simply for the
> > argument, is true). In addition, if it does not care about
> > Blacks murdering Blacks, that actually SHIELDS 94%
> > of those who murder those Blacks, since THEY are Black.
>
> Aarghhhhhhh!!!!!!
>
You may find the fact distasteful. But the alternative is even
more so. :-)
>
> >
> > > > Simply
> > > > because almost EVERY murder of a Black is COMMITTED
> > > > by a Black. The reasons for that are well-established, but
> > > > have NOTHING to do with the DP. They have to do with the fact
> > > > that our society has diminished the Black so often and for
> > > > so long, that THEY start to believe THEY are worthless,
> > > > and life becomes less meaningful to them. But do not
> > > > for an instant believe that eliminating the DP will do ANYTHING
> > > > toward racism, because it is not racist, in respect to
> > > > Blacks being SINGLED out for execution. Since Whites
> > > > murder Whites more than Blacks murder Whites, and
> > > > those who murder Whites are more likely to receive the
> > > > DP, it is fairly obvious which race benefits from that
> > > > 'fact' (if it is some sort of 'fact').
> > >
> > > The above adds up to a zero like so many of your
> > > arguments of late.
> > >
> > And your counter-argument??? Please. You've tried over
> > and over in this argument to twist the fact that it is not about
> > Blacks murdering Whites. Because it is about ALL RACES
> > murdering Whites. There is no trace of racism in the
> > application of the DP in respect to those who murder Whites.
>
> Perhaps you really believe that and if you do than I
> have to believe that the arguments that you have pursued
> elsewhere have completely addled your senses.
>
Well, it's the premise that this argument assumes. Now if
you CLAIM that Blacks who murder Whites are MORE likely
to receive the DP than OTHER RACES who murder Whites,
that's an entirely different argument. And you'd need to
present something to back that up, since all the information
I've seen totally discounts such a view. For the sake of this
argument, I am 'assuming' one thing (true or false, I am not
certain of). I am 'assuming' that ALL RACES who murder
Whites are 'more likely' to receive the DP, than ALL RACES
who murder Blacks. Those are the only preconditions I'll
accept in this argument.
>
> > While we both agree that Blacks who murder Blacks are not
> > likely to receive the DP, but you seem oblivious to the fact that
> > this means fully 94% of all murderers who murder Blacks are
> > thus less likely to receive the DP because THEY are Blacks.
>
> Do you get more stupid by the kilobyte? Does nothing
> penetrate that skull of yours?
>
I haven't the slightest idea what YOUR 'argument' IS, if you
find something confusing about my very clear statement.
What part of it do you disagree with, in the context of this
argument? Obviously, your 'agenda' is abolishing the DP.
But that's not the 'argument' here. You certainly can't claim
we execute TOO MANY Black Murderers. That would be
absurd under the conditions of the argument. So apparently,
you believe we are executing TOO FEW Black murderers?
> > > >
> > > > > >. Blacks murder Blacks at
> > > > > > a horrendous rate, and that can be attributed to racism, and
> > > > > > injustice in society, which creates a feeling of worthlessness by
> > > > > > Blacks themselves, there's hardly any denying this. But this
> > > > > > certainly cannot be attributed to the DP itself. It is a problem
> > > > > > that society must solve, totally separate from the use of the DP
> > > > > > for murderers. So, when it comes to the DP, Blacks are LESS
> likely
> > > > > > to receive the DP since almost all their murders are committed
> > > > > > against other Blacks, and those DO NOT result in the DP.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > PV
> > >
> > > You care deeply about racism in America. Of that I have
> > > no doubt - the tragedy is that you support a penalty that, in the
> > > biased manner it is implemented, helps to consolidate that
> > > racism.
> > >
> > Very untrue. Were the DP to be eliminated it would not affect
> > one bit the racism in the Justice System.
>
> Fuck the Justice System, it would benefit the average American
>
Come on, John... Don't be ridiculous. How might we be 'better'
by keeping ALL murderers alive? What 'law of nature' presumes
that murderers 'deserve' special handling? Could you look
Theodore Frank in the eye, and offer him 'three hots and a cot,'
in you home? Essentially that IS what you're doing. Since
YOU are responsible for the prison (as a citizen), that keeps
him alive. Isn't there any point when you recognize that someone
so 'deserves' execution, and someone is so 'dangerous' to our
species that 'accepting' offering him those 'three hots and a cot,'
for the rest of his natural life, is more destructive than the DP
could EVER be???
> > And in the end it would
> > be all about excusing ALL murder.
>
> There were 15000 murders in America last year, 66 wretches
> were executed. So 14,900 or so were excused anyway
>
I don't have a problem with that. Was it too few for you?
You need to understand that 'presumably' those 66 represented
the WORST of 14,900 or so. I certainly don't wish to see ALL
14,900 executed. Nor do I wish to see NONE executed. I just
wish we did a better job of choosing those 66. But the 'number'
seems 'acceptable' (could be reduced actually) to me. Of course,
when one holds ALL murderers as having some 'special' value,
then it might be seen different by them. I don't see them having
such 'special' value.
> >You need to understand, that
> > any suggestion that we execute Blacks who murder Blacks, at
> > the same rate we execute ALL RACES who murder Whites,
> > would result in a quantum leap in the execution of Black murderers.
>
> Agreed and is probably the single greatest reason that the
> authorities turn a 'blind eye' to black on black murders but
> it is still discrimination and the only way to get rid of that
> discrimination is to get rid of the DP. I'll repeat that in
> capitals GET RID OF THE DP.
>
I'll repeat... When we are good and ready. Such as when the
level of violence drops to a less significant factors.
Been taking lessons from Jürgen, I see.
:-)
PV
A Planet Visitor
> Le Wed, 28 Aug 2002 15:04:04 +0100, John Rennie <j.re...@ntlworld.com> a écrit :
>
> { snip right-royal spanking delivered to LDB }
>
> > away from the point. You have to, of course, because I have proven
> > my case time and time again. Unlike some I take no pleasure in
> > this - well, not that much pleasure. Oh. all right, I am enjoying
> > myself.
>
> allow him to let it go, even when he has been shown to be farting into
> his 'voice recognition' software.
>
> Even if we were to leave aside his grammatical _faux pas_ (and they must
> surely run into three figures, now), we still have his belief that O.J.
> Simpson was 'found guilty in a civil court', and the latest, the
> greatest, his 'come-and-spank-me' inability to digest and analyse legal
> texts and decisions ... his belief that Rule 25[b][2] (which he hadn't
> even _heard of_, until JPB and I gave him a 'heads-up') gave Judge Zobel
> the power to overturn the second degree murder conviction, handed down in
> the Commonwealth v. Woodward case.
>
> tactic of emotional blackmail directed at you, and threats and abuse directed
> at the rest of us, to cover up for the fact that he once again dropped his
> trousers, pulled his cheeks apart, and let rip 10 cubic litres of emptyness,
> under the guise of a usenet 'post'.
>
"But Europe has not had a war now since 1945, and in matters of
morals, has led the world for over two thousand years." It would
seem it hasn't been that long --
From the Hague -- "Serbian guards used NATO bombings as a
cover for the murder of 153 Ethnic Albanians in Kosovo in the spring
of 1999, a prosecution witness testified Tuesday at Slobodan
Milosevic's war-crimes trial. The witness, Musa Krasniqu, said that
the morning after NATO bombs struck a prison on May 21, inmates
were told to gather in a central courtyard to await transportation to
another jail. Without warning, the guards opened fire from a
watchtower and began slaughtering the prisoners, who included
some guilty only of petty crimes. In all, 153 prisoners were murdered
in the shooting.
Ah well, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Especially those 'morals.'
A Planet Visitor
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
You will find that in the period 1976-1999, Blacks committed 51.5%
of all murders. Thus the fact that those executed Blacks constitute
40% of all those we execute, demonstrates the reverse effect I speak
of. I could certainly go into more detail, but that little bit of
data would tend to demonstrate that percentage-wise, Blacks
murder at a higher rate than they are executed for those murders.
I never claimed that all Blacks who murder Blacks escape the DP,
That's simply your racism at work. And you'll not make a 'racist'
statement from a lesser number executed from within a greater
number of murders. There is ABSOLUTELY no evidence that
Blacks who murder Whites are sentenced to the DP in a greater
proportion than OTHER RACES (including Whites) who murder
Whites. You have totally twisted the argument offered. Blacks
who murder Whites are NOT sentenced to the DP in a larger
proportion than Whites who murder Whites. That's just bullshit
on your part.
This entire 'argument' found its source in a post of cpresponse1, in
which he wrote --"The issue that the study spoke of wasn't
whether when one race kills another, for example a black
killing a white, they're more likely to get the death penalty, but
rather when a particular race (white) is the victim, whether the
killer is another white, or black, hispanic, asian or native American,
the death penalty given out a statistically significant greater number
of times than if some other race (or races) is (are) the victim(s)."
Notice the study speaks ONLY to the victim. If the victim is
White, than those of ALL RACES are equally found in the same
ratio as being sentenced to the DP. You are trying to CHANGE
that by claiming MORE Blacks who murder Whites are
statistically sentenced to the DP. And that conclusion is
FALSE, from the study.
> >If the victim is Black... there is a negative effect in respect to the
> >DP for Blacks. Because 1) Those who murder Blacks are
> >less likely to receive the DP, and 2) 94% of those who murder Blacks
> >are Black murderers.
> >
> .....We would do much better to tackle racism in society at
> >large, and in my perception of it in the Justice System, without
> >wasting our time and effort in believing we can cosmetically solve
> >racism by excusing murder, even if we might now be doing so in
> >respect to NOT sentencing to the DP those murderers who murder
> >Black victims.
>
> ......While we both agree that Blacks who murder Blacks are not
> >likely to receive the DP, but you seem oblivious to the fact that
> >this means fully 94% of all murderers who murder Blacks are
> >thus less likely to receive the DP because THEY are Blacks.
>
>
> Nope. Murdering an African American causes no death sentence because your
> entire apparatus is not interested in the fate of Black victims.
>
I rather implied that myself. What's your point? Since 94% of
Black victims are murdered by Black murderers, you can only
conclude that FEWER receive the DP from your argument. But
your argument is not limited to the DP. Nor will abolishing the
DP SOLVE such a situation you describe. This is what is
WRONG with a large number of views held by abolitionists.
They believe abolition will SOLVE the problem. But the DP
is NOT the problem, nor will abolishing it SOLVE the problem.
Anyone who believes abolishing the DP will solve murder or
racism, must also be silly enough to believe that abolishing the
Justice System will solve crime or racism.
> .....Further, this certainly means we will conceivably not
> >execute a convicted Black murderer of a Black victim, who might
> >actually be innocent, because of the flaws in the Justice System.
> >Or at the least, it reduces our chances of doing so rather dramatically.
>
> Did I get this right? In a sudden you discover the advantages of not
> executing people?
>
Huh??? There are always 'advantages' to not executing people.
We don't execute those who don't murder. We only execute 5%
of those who do. Are you presuming I believe there are 'advantages'
to executing thieves, or all murderers? You know how silly you look
when you try to draw such conclusions about my views.
> But: What has happened with your argumentation, Sir? You wanted to sell that
> prosecutors and juries are accurately and exclusively seeking the death
> penalty in cases where an aggravated continuing threat is likely. This
> should cause AUTOMATICALLY a non-racistic DP, as the criteria for a death
> sentence are clear and race-independent. A Black having murdered a Black
> must according to your claims and criteria sentenced by the jury to death
> exactly if a continuing threat indicates so, isn't it? Do you want to sell
> now that murdering Blacks makes the offender principledly less threatening,
> since murdering a Black warrants almost never the DP?
>
No, you miss the point completely. Were I to NOT see a bias against
Blacks in the guilt/innocence trial, you would be correct. But I have,
over and over, expressed my belief that we find many Blacks GUILTY
who are in fact INNOCENT, simply because of the halo effect. I have,
on more than one occasion, tried to reconcile how we might shield the
race of the accused from the jury. I am willing to accept that we
have a lesser degree of protection against such a threat, BECAUSE
of this bias AGAINST the Black in the trial process. This is not
easy to put in simple terms. But my objective is ALWAYS the
greatest protection of the innocent. So I am willing, in my PERSONAL
view, to TRADE some degree of safety in respect to a future
innocent victim, to lessen by some degree the possibility of executing
an innocent.
> You should face the fact that this 20kB-post led your complete previous
> argumentative construction as absurdum.
>
You should try to learn a bit of English so you might comprehend
that 20 kb post. You immediately drew a false conclusion from the
original premise and jumped to claim that we execute a
disproportionate number of Blacks who murder Whites, and that's
not the conclusion at all. Nor has ANY study demonstrated that
'belief.' And clearly, if 51% of ALL murders are committed by
Blacks, but only 40% of the executions are of Blacks, there is
an obvious conclusion to be drawn. And that conclusion is that
Blacks are executed for ALL murders at a lower rate than the
rate of murders they commit. Which I have absolutely no problem
with, because I believe too many are found guilty than actually
are guilty. And the fact that they are NOT executed, tends to
insulate the DP from those few who are found guilty but are
innocent. Decreasing the possibility, ever so slightly, of our
executing an innocent, while also increasing, ever so slightly,
the possibility that a TRUE Black murderer will be released
to murder another innocent. A balance of innocent lives, in
MY OPINION.
PV
> Jürgen
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