MW - what's the point?
Brandon Van Every
activities, including sleep. I uninstalled it once and reinstalled it. My
positive takeaways were:
- interesting scenery. The graphics are good. But, having said that,
they're not infinitely good and they do get old. Particularly when elements
are reused, like Vivee style waistwork buildings, and every shop looks like
every other shop. Actually I'd even criticize the lighting, coloration, and
texture as far too uniform. It looks pretty the first time you see it. It
looks pretty the 100th time you see it. It gets old the 1000th time you've
seen it. Morrowind offers a lot graphically, but it's not the be-all
end-all of either aesthetic achievement or artistic variety.
- found a shrine that allows me to fly for a really, really long time.
Well, at least it seemed like a long time to me! I hadn't done any flying,
and it seemed like my potions only lasted 60 seconds or whatever. With this
shrine, I flew halfway across the continent. I could have made it the whole
way, but I stopped to look at things and to get out of the way of cliff
racers. I thought it was cool to get bird's eye access to the entire world
model.
- murdered many townspeople. I liked wearing fucked up cross-dressing
outfits and one of my characters was named Silence Of The Lambs. But,
having said that, it wasn't as much fun after the 20th victim or so. People
take too long to die, they die in the same way, and they have bad fighting
dialogue. I'd like to make a CRPG someday that is more rewarding for those
playing serial killer, but isn't explicitly about serial killing. Like, I
got a real thrill in Thief the 1st time I knocked someone out, then threw
their body over my shoulder, dragged them down a dark hole, and dumped 'em
in the river. They drowned, it was so evil! I didn't succeed at my
ultimate goal however, which was to murder everybody. First off, the guards
are too tough. I levelled up a lot, it took a long time, I could probably
beat a single guard but it would take awhile and I'd have to use a bunch of
magic items, healing potions, blah blah blah. Second, "murder everybody?"
I started to realize how many people that would be, and how un-fun it would
be. Like I said, it got old after the 20th victim or so.
- I stole a lot. I know where pretty much all the good stuff in all the
shops is. Problem is, stealing everything, selling everything, and then
training everything takes a long time. It got old.
In contrast to these positives, I found the quests I went on completely
boring. Thieves' Guild quests suck! Like running out for coffee. The only
thing you get out of that is a rank, and I have no idea if the rank is worth
anything, only that it's painful and tedious to get. It certainly isn't
worth the money, they don't pay you shit for what you steal compared to what
you can do for yourself. As for levelling up, I seriously don't think it's
worth the time, because if you're making a lot of money you can buy your
experience, and if you just spend tons of time you'll level up anyways.
I never actually did the Blades quests. For a long time, getting the Dwemer
Cube was way too hard. I'd get fried just by the stupid magician at the
bridge! So I'd go steal everything instead. Made a lot of money, learned
that Thieves' Guild quests suck, so I figured Blade quests probably suck
too. Now I've got a guy who's powerful enough to kick a lot of things ass,
but what's the point? I've seen the Dwemer scenery, iron doors and all of
that. The outsides look kinda cool but the insides? Big deal. It's not
really very good level stuff as compared to Thief II for instance.
Really, I've gotten no story out of Morrowind. Well, no *focused* story.
There's plenty of backstories and atmospherics. But what the hell am I
doing here? Why should I care about any of the quests at all? My attitude
is ok, I've seen what everything looks like, so I've extracted the play
value from the game. Is there something spectacular that I'm missing here?
If there is, then Morrowind does a lousy job of delivering it and making me
aware that it's available.
Really, you get off the boat and are told to "go here." Well, like, why
should I care about that?
--
Cheers, www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
Michael Grosberg
news:hFlY8.13073$Kx3....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net:
> I never actually did the Blades quests. For a long time, getting the
> Dwemer Cube was way too hard. I'd get fried just by the stupid
> magician at the bridge!
Maybe you should try with another character. My dark elf spellsword went
through those people like a hot knift through butter. And not having the
cube you probably didn't even get to the lower levels, with the steam
robots and dwemer ghosts...
> so I figured
> Blade quests probably suck too. Now I've got a guy who's powerful
> enough to kick a lot of things ass, but what's the point?
The point IS to finish the main quest, which is where the story is.
I've seen
> the Dwemer scenery, iron doors and all of that. The outsides look
> kinda cool but the insides? Big deal. It's not really very good
> level stuff as compared to Thief II for instance.
Have you visited a daedra shrine? (not thet you'd survive there for more
than 2 secs. Hell, I don't, and I have a badass enchanted dwemer claymore
and orcish armor)
> Really, I've gotten no story out of Morrowind. Well, no *focused*
> story.
Just go on with the blades missions. It's that easy.
Xocyll
the entrails of the porn spammer to utter "The Augury is good, the
signs say:
<big snip>
>I never actually did the Blades quests.
<snip>
>Really, I've gotten no story out of Morrowind.
<snip>
Gee, your post boils down to "I wandered around a bit, did a couple
quests for _one_ guild, ignored the entire main plotline and am now
bitching that there's no 'story' in the game."
>Well, no *focused* story.
>There's plenty of backstories and atmospherics. But what the hell am I
>doing here? Why should I care about any of the quests at all? My attitude
>is ok, I've seen what everything looks like, so I've extracted the play
>value from the game. Is there something spectacular that I'm missing here?
>If there is, then Morrowind does a lousy job of delivering it and making me
>aware that it's available.
You skipped the entire main story, it's YOUR fault not the games.
How can bethesda be more explicit about "making you aware that it's
there" than giving you a task to do before you're let out of the first
building?.
What did you want Bethesda to do, FORCE YOU into one path to follow so
you couldn't miss the story?
There's lots of totally linear games like that for you to play, Bethesda
doesn't tend to make them.
Morrowind gives you all the choices of what you're going to do, you
chose to ignore most of it.
Your post reads like one of those Motorcycle Tourists who complain about
never seeing anything when they measure their tours in "hundreds of
miles traveled per day" but never actually stop to see any sights.
Xocyll
--
I don't particularly want you to FOAD, myself. You'll be more of
a cautionary example if you'll FO And Get Chronically, Incurably,
Painfully, Progressively, Expensively, Debilitatingly Ill. So
FOAGCIPPEDI. -- Mike Andrews responding to an idiot in asr
NFLed
>Really, I've gotten no story out of Morrowind. Well, no *focused* story.
The first quote above explains the second. The story gets
interesting (if you are interested in crpg's, that is) once you
start doing the Blades quests. When you get off the boat
you may recall that you were referred to the Blades quest
guy.
Hong Ooi
<vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote:
>- murdered many townspeople. I liked wearing fucked up cross-dressing
>outfits and one of my characters was named Silence Of The Lambs. But,
>having said that, it wasn't as much fun after the 20th victim or so.
How very existential.
I predict that this will be on your tombstone when you die. ;)
--
Hong Ooi | "What's so great about Australia anyway?
hong...@maths.anu.edu.au | It is a salted Jezebel of scorched
http://www.zip.com.au/~hong | earth forsaken by God."
Sydney, Australia | -- CMB
Russell Wallace
<vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote:
>Really, I've gotten no story out of Morrowind. Well, no *focused* story.
>There's plenty of backstories and atmospherics. But what the hell am I
>doing here? Why should I care about any of the quests at all?
What CRPGs _have_ you enjoyed?
I haven't played Morrowind myself, but if you gave some examples of
what you do like, people who've played Morrowind might be able to say
"here's how to find that in this game", or else "well no then, it's
not likely to be to your tastes, you should play something else
instead".
--
"Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent."
Remove killer rodent from address to reply.
http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace
Brandon Van Every
"Michael Grosberg" <spam...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:Xns924C50A01...@130.133.1.4...
> "Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in
> news:hFlY8.13073$Kx3....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net:
>
> > I never actually did the Blades quests. For a long time, getting the
> > Dwemer Cube was way too hard. I'd get fried just by the stupid
> > magician at the bridge!
>
>
> Maybe you should try with another character. My dark elf spellsword went
> through those people like a hot knift through butter. And not having the
> cube you probably didn't even get to the lower levels, with the steam
> robots and dwemer ghosts...
No, I got to the steam robots and dwemer ghosts. I said, "Shit, this is too
hard!" and ran away. First I tried running around evading the monsters,
hoping the Dwemer Cube was in plain sight somewhere, but it wasn't. Are you
saying it was up with all the brigands somewhere? Well, I killed all of 'em
and didn't find it, so if it's up there, that's pretty stupid. No wonder I
think the game is pointless if that's how much needle-in-a-haystack you have
to do to move the story along.
Speaking of steam robots, I find it noticeable / distracting that both
Morrowind and Thief II did this "Steam Age Fantasy" thing. Did some former
Looking Glass artists end up at Bethesda, or vice versa, or what? Ok,
admittedly the idea of a preceding industrial / high tech civilization
before the fantasy era is a common fantasy / sci-fi idea. And, that wasn't
Thief's idea, they were going through that technological evolution for the
1st time. So, different historical motives, same fantasy result. I guess
putting steamers and guns into fantasy settings just isn't a common enough
theme for it to have shown up in many games.
> > so I figured
> > Blade quests probably suck too. Now I've got a guy who's powerful
> > enough to kick a lot of things ass, but what's the point?
>
> The point IS to finish the main quest, which is where the story is.
Yes, but is the story any good? Or is it lame shit like the Thieves'
quests? Let's face it, the characterization and dialogue in Morrowind is
pretty weak. NPCs are just pointers to B, C, and D.
> Have you visited a daedra shrine? (not thet you'd survive there for more
> than 2 secs. Hell, I don't, and I have a badass enchanted dwemer claymore
> and orcish armor)
That's one of those teleporter thingies with the index stones, right? Never
actually used one of those teleporters, but I did find an index stone in
Caldera. Didn't know what the hell it was for a very long time. Didn't
seem like something I should sell, looked like more of a puzzle item. Got
tired of going back for puzzle items I'd sold to merchants, so if I found
one I'd just keep it. Anyways, I've seen the entrance to a shrine, but with
that particular character I didn't have a high enough Security to get past
the door. That was Falensarano, the one I saw. I figured all the other
temples would be the same, and if I was going to do them I should probably
bother to find out about index stones and what's in the books and all that
crap. Go on a pilgrimmage basically. I could see myself doing that if the
end products were really really really cool, like I could get an item that
allows me to move mountains or something. But just to see some more dungeon
corridors? Nah. Later for that.
> Just go on with the blades missions. It's that easy.
But is it worth my time? A dungeon corridor in 2002 is still a dungeon
corridor. Not counting Diablo, the last CRPG I did with any thoroughness
was Stonekeep back in 1996. That was boring as hell and I uninstalled it.
The only thing I liked about it was that goblin guy. Oh, and the barrel
explosions. I mean really, there would have to be some pretty incredible
scenery or game functionality for me to bother with the Blades plotline.
"Here are 10 more levels to go through" ain't no draw for me at this point.
Brandon Van Every
"Xocyll" <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote in message
news:5s14jukkpn7t0qle3...@4ax.com...
>
> Gee, your post boils down to "I wandered around a bit,
A *bit* ? I've stolen everything that was worth taking and reasonably
accessible from every fucking town that had any money in it. As far as I
know I've seen the vast majority of the game's artwork and level design. I
played it solid for one week to the exclusion of all else, I think that's
probably 70+ hours of gameplay. If that's only "a bit" then this is a
long-ass boring game that fails to direct the player to anything really
great.
> did a couple
> quests for _one_ guild, ignored the entire main plotline and am now
> bitching that there's no 'story' in the game."
Well what the fuck is all that other stuff there for me to do then, huh?
Why make this world that is so huge, with so much nicely rendered but
ultimately repetitive shops and NPCs, if the real intent of the game is to
present this great storyline? I say bullshit, there's probably no great
storyline, it's probably exactly like what the rest of the game is like.
> >Well, no *focused* story.
> >There's plenty of backstories and atmospherics. But what the hell am I
> >doing here? Why should I care about any of the quests at all? My
attitude
> >is ok, I've seen what everything looks like, so I've extracted the play
> >value from the game. Is there something spectacular that I'm missing
here?
> >If there is, then Morrowind does a lousy job of delivering it and making
me
> >aware that it's available.
>
> You skipped the entire main story, it's YOUR fault not the games.
Bullshit. There is *no* audience buy-in as to why I should want to go on
Blades quests. The Blade guy is not inherently cool. The other Agents are
not inherently interesting. All they appear to be is a collection of
trainers, same as any other Guild. Moreover, the Blade master *tells* you
to go seek a cover identity in another guild before getting missions from
him. If there's some great story sitting under the hood, it's not my fault.
It's completely the game's fault for failing to indicate that there's a
great story waiting to happen.
In cinematic terms, the story is poorly set up. I have no expectation that
anything is going to be paid off later.
> How can bethesda be more explicit about "making you aware that it's
> there" than giving you a task to do before you're let out of the first
> building?.
How can a screenplay keep you from walking away in the first 10 minutes?
Look, the 1st part getting off the ship is fine. You get a sense of your
place in the world from how the guards treat you on the ship. Where it
fails is when you get to the Blademaster. You don't know why you're in the
Blades or even if you want to be, in fact maybe you don't want to be and
you'd rather kill all the Blades and the Emperor. You have totally free
will about whether to join or not, and moreover if you do join, the
Blademaster tells you to go do other stuff. Which in the real world, is
going to be boring and take a long time to do.
Where's the politics? Where's the intrigue? Where's the story? All I'm
getting out of this Blademaster dude is that by being an Agent, I'll be able
to get some money or training same as any other guild. There's no hint that
there's anything better in store than that.
> What did you want Bethesda to do, FORCE YOU into one path to follow so
> you couldn't miss the story?
They should build much stronger incentives to follow a main storyline, like
show that it's really, really cool. That would require much deeper
characterization and dialogue than anything the game has to offer as I have
experienced it. Furthermore, they'd have to prioritize the display of
unique content as opposed to vast but ultimately redundant content. There
are way too many villages with exactly the same huts, shops, and commoners.
Why bother? It gets old after the 3rd village.
> There's lots of totally linear games like that for you to play, Bethesda
> doesn't tend to make them.
Yeah. Well, I say Bethesda can make nice scenery and epic scale, but hasn't
a clue about writing stories. The main game isn't the only writing that's
bad. Most of those book stories *suck*. Some of 'em are good, like someone
really sat down and tried to write an engaging vignette acording to all the
rules of craft that storywriters typically employ. But so much of it is
half-baked fantasy drivel with no setup, no lead as to why you should pay
attention or care. They're very choppy stories, which is a pretty bad thing
considering how short most of them are.
> Morrowind gives you all the choices of what you're going to do, you
> chose to ignore most of it.
Again, grossly inaccurate. I was a really good thief, and it took me a
*long* time to get the loot. Eventually my rule was I didn't steal unless
it was worth 3000 gold.
> Your post reads like one of those Motorcycle Tourists who complain about
> never seeing anything when they measure their tours in "hundreds of
> miles traveled per day" but never actually stop to see any sights.
Bottom line: is Morrowind a great story? Or a boring ass story? From
playing the game for 70+ hours, I'm led to believe the latter. Now, you
tell me. How does Morrowind's story rank among all stories you've read?
How does it even rank compared to stories in other games? Forget Final
Fantasy and all of that, how about the cutscenes of Thief and Thief II?
Morrowind *sucks* compared to even those cutscenes, and that's just stuff
put around a bunch of level designs.
Brandon Van Every
"NFLed" <nf...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020714200935...@mb-ci.aol.com...
I need your definition of "interesting." Do you mean, it's interesting that
you get the +147 Longbow Of Hatred later on? Or do you mean interesting as
a piece of literature? I've done *plenty* of levelling up in Morrowind, as
a thief casing all the towns. It was interesting for awhile, but eventually
ceased to be interesting when there was no new stuff to steal, insufficient
merchants to move the expensive stolen goods, and too much time to run back
and forth to trainers to get bonuses.
Are we on the same page about what a good "story" is? A story doesn't mean
you get a whole bunch of loot over time. That's a reward curve, not a
story.
Brandon Van Every
"Hong Ooi" <hong...@maths.anu.edu.au> wrote in message
news:eo74jus6egetr0dse...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:02:05 GMT, "Brandon Van Every"
> <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote:
>
> >- murdered many townspeople. I liked wearing fucked up cross-dressing
> >outfits and one of my characters was named Silence Of The Lambs. But,
> >having said that, it wasn't as much fun after the 20th victim or so.
>
> How very existential.
>
> I predict that this will be on your tombstone when you die. ;)
Hmm...
Here lies Ass Master, Existentialist.
He wore fucked up armor and cute dresses.
He killed many farmers and commoners.
Then a town guard cut his balls off. His loss!
Bill Silvey
"Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message
news:dlqY8.13492$Kx3....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Well what the fuck is all that other stuff there for me to do then, huh?
> Why make this world that is so huge, with so much nicely rendered but
> ultimately repetitive shops and NPCs, if the real intent of the game is to
> present this great storyline? I say bullshit, there's probably no great
> storyline, it's probably exactly like what the rest of the game is like.
This pretty much says it all. All you've said is "I've walked around being
a homicidal maniac, and a thief, I haven't followed the advice I was given
when I got off the boat - waah! There's no story!"
If you'd *play* the fucking game, you'd find the story. Wake up, for
chrissake.
--
http://home.cfl.rr.com/delversdungeon/index.htm
Remove the X's in my email address to respond.
Me: "What you have to understand, dear, is that the internet is a global
community...a village!"
My Wife: "And you're the village idiot, right?"
Russell Wallace
<vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote:
>But is it worth my time? A dungeon corridor in 2002 is still a dungeon
>corridor. Not counting Diablo, the last CRPG I did with any thoroughness
>was Stonekeep back in 1996. That was boring as hell and I uninstalled it.
Uh, if you don't like CRPGs, why did you buy Morrowind? I mean, I
don't know what the box cover says, but I'm pretty sure it left no
doubt that the game was a CRPG :)
Brandon Van Every
"Russell Wallace" <rwvorp...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:3d322d03....@news.eircom.net...
> On Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:02:05 GMT, "Brandon Van Every"
> <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote:
>
> >Really, I've gotten no story out of Morrowind. Well, no *focused* story.
> >There's plenty of backstories and atmospherics. But what the hell am I
> >doing here? Why should I care about any of the quests at all?
>
> What CRPGs _have_ you enjoyed?
Ultima III was pretty cool when I was a pimply-faced teen. Recently I
enjoyed parts of Diablo II, but overall it got old. I did finish the game
and beat Diablo, as opposed to destroying the CD, so that means I got a
certain amount of enjoyment out of it. However, I was sorely tempted to
destroy the CD at one point, so I probably got the bare minimum amount of
enjoyment necessary above my CD destruction threshold.
Actually, come to think of it, King Of Dragon Pass is certainly CRPG. It
had great story elements. It still sucked from a levelling-up tedium
standpoint though. I destroyed the CD my first time playing it. Then
almost a year later a friend of mine wanted to finish it, so I bought a $5
replacement CD. First time I've ever replaced a game I destroyed. I
*still* don't believe I finished it. If I recall, I got David Dunham to
give me a cheat code so I could see the end. But I'm pretty sure I saw 99%
of the game's content. I hope David makes a game someday with the story
elements and artistic excellence of KODP, minus the numerical level-up
tedium.
Levelling up is only fun when you're getting new crap. I used to think I
thought the act of levelling up was both unpleasurable and cosmically
pointless. I still believe the latter, but the fact that I was able to
enjoy a fair amount of Diablo II and Morrowind leads me to believe that I
actually like getting new stuff. I'm also equally certain that all the
"dead time" when you're trying to find new stuff and just repeating the same
tasks over and over has gotta go. I think you should get new stuff every 20
minutes. It should not depend on what the player does or doesn't do right.
Every 20 minutes or so, you get your new stuff. You might get it a little
quicker if you're playing better, or it might be better if you're playing
better, but you're always going to get new stuff.
> I haven't played Morrowind myself, but if you gave some examples of
> what you do like, people who've played Morrowind might be able to say
> "here's how to find that in this game", or else "well no then, it's
> not likely to be to your tastes, you should play something else
> instead".
Well, since Morrowind was supposed to be about my relationship to the
Emperor, I wanted cloak-and-dagger political intrigue. I wanted to be a
leftist pinko healer in a right wing "kill all the monsters and take all the
loot" world. That self-image evaporated pretty quickly when I realized (1)
there was apparently no political depth to Morrowind, the quests would
simply be go over here, get this for me (2) my self-image led me to bad
stats, there was no roleplay in a dramatic sense, I was merely being
penalized for bad stat choices (3) making potions is godawful tedious
because of the UI, and would still be tedious even with a better UI.
I was tired of killing everything in sight because I'd just done that to
death in Diablo II. So I wanted to advance without killing. So I became a
thief and stole everything.
I just have no faith that the characterization and dialogue of the main
story in Morrowind is any good. 70+ hours of gameplay says that Bethesda
writers are boring and could never make it in either film, TV, or books.
The strength of Morrowind is it's a good-looking world and lets you wander
around openly.
Brandon Van Every
"Bill Silvey" <bxsxixl...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:mbrY8.35611$DS.8...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> "Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message
> news:dlqY8.13492$Kx3....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > Well what the fuck is all that other stuff there for me to do then, huh?
> > Why make this world that is so huge, with so much nicely rendered but
> > ultimately repetitive shops and NPCs, if the real intent of the game is
to
> > present this great storyline? I say bullshit, there's probably no great
> > storyline, it's probably exactly like what the rest of the game is like.
>
> This pretty much says it all. All you've said is "I've walked around
being
> a homicidal maniac, and a thief, I haven't followed the advice I was given
> when I got off the boat - waah! There's no story!"
>
> If you'd *play* the fucking game, you'd find the story. Wake up, for
> chrissake.
I played the fucking game for 70+ hours!!! I've picked up *plenty* of those
books in the libraries and thumbed them. Most of 'em are damn boring reads.
I've got an atmospheric sense of what Morrowind is about. It is *not* an
excellently crafted, directed work of literature. It is *not* a good
screenplay. It's a large, rambling exercise in world creation. Its point
is to be BIG.
Nobody expects someone to read a book or watch a movie for 70+ fucking hours
before being drawn into the main storyline somehow. Get real. The reason I
wasn't drawn in, is there's no draw. The characters are poor. The dialogue
sucks. There are way too many NPCs that are totally boring. I was drawn
into the *landscape*. Not the story. The whole sell of the game is the
landscape, not the story.
I have a *slight* inclination to go on the pilgrimmage quests, because at
least one of the shrines gave me the cool ability to fly across the
continent. I'm doubtful I'll find anything else similarly cool to do
though, so it's not getting a reinstall just for that. If I could blow up a
significant chunk of the continent or sink a city, that would be cool.
Let's put this in contrast. King Of Dragon Pass is a *good* exercise in
somewhat open-ended storytelling. It's still flawed because of too much
repetitive leveling up, but the story elements are excellent. The main
problem with KODP is the repetitive leveling up gets in the way of the
story, it makes it drag. But the story is definitely there, and you will
*not* miss it if you play the game for 70+ fucking hours.
Morrowind doesn't have anything that can even touch KODP for story.
I'm really sick of games with bad writing! I want a game with less
characters, and each one actually matters. Like a book. If you're a good
writer, you don't put pointless, one dimensional characters in your book.
Or a TV show. You might have extra people in the form of "guest stars," but
mainly it's about a core group of characters.
Mike Noren
>No, I got to the steam robots and dwemer ghosts. I said, "Shit, this is too
>hard!" and ran away. First I tried running around evading the monsters,
>hoping the Dwemer Cube was in plain sight somewhere, but it wasn't. Are you
>saying it was up with all the brigands somewhere?
The dwemer cube is very hard to find - it's small and in one of those
shelves.
It's close inside the entrance to the complex, in on of the first
rooms. Yell if you need a spoiler regarding exactly where.
>think the game is pointless if that's how much needle-in-a-haystack you have
>to do to move the story along.
I only ever ran into two needle-in-haystack type missions - the dwemer
cube is one, and a smuggled dwemer artefact another (and the second
one is a lot worse).
>> The point IS to finish the main quest, which is where the story is.
>
>Yes, but is the story any good? Or is it lame shit like the Thieves'
>quests?
It's better than the house quests, though by no means outstanding.
Dang Tran Vu
> Levelling up is only fun when you're getting new crap. I used to think I
> thought the act of levelling up was both unpleasurable and cosmically
> pointless. I still believe the latter, but the fact that I was able to
> enjoy a fair amount of Diablo II and Morrowind leads me to believe that I
> actually like getting new stuff. I'm also equally certain that all the
> "dead time" when you're trying to find new stuff and just repeating the same
> tasks over and over has gotta go. I think you should get new stuff every 20
> minutes. It should not depend on what the player does or doesn't do right.
> Every 20 minutes or so, you get your new stuff. You might get it a little
> quicker if you're playing better, or it might be better if you're playing
> better, but you're always going to get new stuff.
Boy, did you pick the wrong game then if that's what you enjoy in a
game. In the mean time, I'll just enjoy this apple while you complain
about why doesn't it taste like an orange.
Gouge
"Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message
>
>
> I played the fucking game for 70+ hours!!! I've picked up *plenty* of
those
> books in the libraries and thumbed them. Most of 'em are damn boring
reads.
> I've got an atmospheric sense of what Morrowind is about. It is *not* an
> excellently crafted, directed work of literature.
What video games are? I mean really? Name one video game the qualifies as
an excellently craft work of literature? Just one.
> Nobody expects someone to read a book or watch a movie for 70+ fucking
hours
> before being drawn into the main storyline somehow. Get real. The reason
I
> wasn't drawn in, is there's no draw. The characters are poor. The
dialogue
> sucks. There are way too many NPCs that are totally boring. I was drawn
> into the *landscape*. Not the story. The whole sell of the game is the
> landscape, not the story.
>
> I have a *slight* inclination to go on the pilgrimmage quests, because at
> least one of the shrines gave me the cool ability to fly across the
> continent. I'm doubtful I'll find anything else similarly cool to do
> though, so it's not getting a reinstall just for that. If I could blow up
a
> significant chunk of the continent or sink a city, that would be cool.
Hmm. You seem to be really excited about the violent portions of video
games. Morrowind has plenty of violence, but not on the level you desire.
Can I suggest GTA3, or maybe Counterstrike?
> Let's put this in contrast. King Of Dragon Pass is a *good* exercise in
> somewhat open-ended storytelling. It's still flawed because of too much
> repetitive leveling up, but the story elements are excellent. The main
> problem with KODP is the repetitive leveling up gets in the way of the
> story, it makes it drag. But the story is definitely there, and you will
> *not* miss it if you play the game for 70+ fucking hours.
I think being able to play a game for 70+ hours and not even play the main
story is a good thing. For a game to draw you in for 70+ hours, it must
have done something for you? And the fact that you didn't play the main
story, makes me think this game is probably a good value.
> Morrowind doesn't have anything that can even touch KODP for story.
>
> I'm really sick of games with bad writing! I want a game with less
> characters, and each one actually matters. Like a book. If you're a good
> writer, you don't put pointless, one dimensional characters in your book.
> Or a TV show. You might have extra people in the form of "guest stars,"
but
> mainly it's about a core group of characters.
>
>
You don't see those types of games, cause people who can write that good,
get better jobs writing other things, like books. And if this is what
you're really after, why not just read a book?
Gouge
Gerry Quinn
>
>Yeah. Well, I say Bethesda can make nice scenery and epic scale, but hasn't
>a clue about writing stories. The main game isn't the only writing that's
>bad. Most of those book stories *suck*. Some of 'em are good, like someone
>really sat down and tried to write an engaging vignette acording to all the
>rules of craft that storywriters typically employ. But so much of it is
>half-baked fantasy drivel with no setup, no lead as to why you should pay
>attention or care. They're very choppy stories, which is a pretty bad thing
>considering how short most of them are.
I think they are meant to be, for the most part, historical fragments.
Part of the scenery, rather than stories per se.
The quests are far too FedEx though, no improvement over Daggerfall.
Maybe someone will come up with some more exciting mods.
- Gerry Quinn
Russell Wallace
<vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote:
>Levelling up is only fun when you're getting new crap. [...]
>Every 20 minutes or so, you get your new stuff. You might get it a little
>quicker if you're playing better, or it might be better if you're playing
>better, but you're always going to get new stuff.
>I just have no faith that the characterization and dialogue of the main
>story in Morrowind is any good. 70+ hours of gameplay says that Bethesda
>writers are boring and could never make it in either film, TV, or books.
Hmm, seems to me there are two things you're looking for:
1) A good story. That's rare, but it can be found. I've heard
Planescape: Torment is well written if that's the sort of thing you
enjoy. If you have a PS2, I can recommend Final Fantasy 10; I'd be
hard put to name a book or movie with a story of similar quality.
2) You don't like spending several tens of hours killing monsters;
you'd rather that part of the game was quickly out of the way. That's
tricker, because killing monsters is the meat of the gameplay in
almost all CRPGs; if you don't enjoy that, it means you really want to
cut through the game very quickly.
One option would be to look for an open source game and tweak it so
you level up at e.g. 10 times the rate. Unfortunately there aren't a
lot of open source CRPGs; off the top of my head, the roguelikes are
the only ones I can think of, and those aren't to most people's
tastes.
Another option, perhaps the best one for you, might be to look for a
CRPG with a good story plus some cheats so you can quickly blow
through the combats.
A third option, of course, would be to stick to human moderated RPGs,
and watch videos for your electronic entertainment :)
Jacob Skaaning
> 80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
You've played the freeform part of the game. You don't have to read the
books if you don't want to, but they're there. You don't have to walk across
the entire island, but you can. You don't have to speak to every NPC, but
you can. Sure, they repeat themselves a lot, but why shouldn't they, if
they're just Joe Average?
DO THE F***ING MAIN QUEST! That's where the story is. Don't yell about a
game having no story if you didn't follow it. Just be happy that a game
offers you to do what you like (for 70+ hours even, it seems) instead of
HAVING to pull that lever to open that next door.
--
Jacob
Læger Uden Moralske Grænser: http://come.to/LUMG
Woyzeck: http://woyzeck.homepage.dk
Mike Noren
>What video games are? I mean really? Name one video game the qualifies as
>an excellently craft work of literature? Just one.
Planescape: Torment.
.
You can tell that you never did the blades quests.
-----.
--
"Hell, rocket science isn't even rocket science"
--A NASA rocket scientist, undernet, circa 1996
R. Cohen
> news:5s14jukkpn7t0qle3...@4ax.com...
> >
> > Gee, your post boils down to "I wandered around a bit,
>
> A *bit* ? I've stolen everything that was worth taking and reasonably
> accessible from every fucking town that had any money in it. As far as I
> know I've seen the vast majority of the game's artwork and level design. I
> played it solid for one week to the exclusion of all else, I think that's
> probably 70+ hours of gameplay. If that's only "a bit" then this is a
> long-ass boring game that fails to direct the player to anything really
> great.
>
The fact that you can do that doesn't mean that that's all there is to
do...
You really only have scratched the surface. I would say you've been
spinning your wheels but that's my opinion.
A lot of quests are fairly mundane but some are fairly interesting.
The mage quests are pretty interesting as are the quests for the
fighters guild. Did you join any of the houses in the area.
> > did a couple
> > quests for _one_ guild, ignored the entire main plotline and am now
> > bitching that there's no 'story' in the game."
>
> Well what the fuck is all that other stuff there for me to do then, huh?
> Why make this world that is so huge, with so much nicely rendered but
> ultimately repetitive shops and NPCs, if the real intent of the game is to
> present this great storyline? I say bullshit, there's probably no great
> storyline, it's probably exactly like what the rest of the game is like.
>
Join a house. *TRY* the main quest.
> > >Well, no *focused* story.
> > >There's plenty of backstories and atmospherics. But what the hell am I
> > >doing here? Why should I care about any of the quests at all? My
> attitude
> > >is ok, I've seen what everything looks like, so I've extracted the play
> > >value from the game. Is there something spectacular that I'm missing
> here?
> > >If there is, then Morrowind does a lousy job of delivering it and making
> me
> > >aware that it's available.
> >
> > You skipped the entire main story, it's YOUR fault not the games.
>
> Bullshit. There is *no* audience buy-in as to why I should want to go on
> Blades quests. The Blade guy is not inherently cool. The other Agents are
> not inherently interesting. All they appear to be is a collection of
> trainers, same as any other Guild. Moreover, the Blade master *tells* you
> to go seek a cover identity in another guild before getting missions from
> him. If there's some great story sitting under the hood, it's not my fault.
> It's completely the game's fault for failing to indicate that there's a
> great story waiting to happen.
>
Well regardless of whether the game grabs you by the head and forces
you to take on the main quests, the main quest remains and is one of
the more interesting stories...
> In cinematic terms, the story is poorly set up. I have no expectation that
> anything is going to be paid off later.
>
> > How can bethesda be more explicit about "making you aware that it's
> > there" than giving you a task to do before you're let out of the first
> > building?.
>
> How can a screenplay keep you from walking away in the first 10 minutes?
>
> Look, the 1st part getting off the ship is fine. You get a sense of your
> place in the world from how the guards treat you on the ship. Where it
> fails is when you get to the Blademaster. You don't know why you're in the
> Blades or even if you want to be, in fact maybe you don't want to be and
> you'd rather kill all the Blades and the Emperor. You have totally free
> will about whether to join or not, and moreover if you do join, the
> Blademaster tells you to go do other stuff. Which in the real world, is
> going to be boring and take a long time to do.
>
> Where's the politics? Where's the intrigue? Where's the story? All I'm
> getting out of this Blademaster dude is that by being an Agent, I'll be able
> to get some money or training same as any other guild. There's no hint that
> there's anything better in store than that.
>
Many of the other groups have more intrigue.
How would you know? You've haven't taken on the main quest.
Fidelio
>"Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message news:<dlqY8.13492$Kx3....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>> "Xocyll" <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote in message
>> news:5s14jukkpn7t0qle3...@4ax.com...
>> > Gee, your post boils down to "I wandered around a bit,
>> A *bit* ? I've stolen everything that was worth taking and reasonably
>> accessible from every fucking town that had any money in it. As far as I
>> know I've seen the vast majority of the game's artwork and level design. I
>> played it solid for one week to the exclusion of all else, I think that's
>> probably 70+ hours of gameplay. If that's only "a bit" then this is a
>> long-ass boring game that fails to direct the player to anything really
>> great.
>The fact that you can do that doesn't mean that that's all there is to
>do...
>You really only have scratched the surface. I would say you've been
>spinning your wheels but that's my opinion.
>> > You skipped the entire main story, it's YOUR fault not the games.
>> Bullshit. There is *no* audience buy-in as to why I should want to go on
>> Blades quests. The Blade guy is not inherently cool. The other Agents are
>> not inherently interesting. All they appear to be is a collection of
>> trainers, same as any other Guild. Moreover, the Blade master *tells* you
>> to go seek a cover identity in another guild before getting missions from
>> him. If there's some great story sitting under the hood, it's not my fault.
>> It's completely the game's fault for failing to indicate that there's a
>> great story waiting to happen.
>Well regardless of whether the game grabs you by the head and forces
>you to take on the main quests, the main quest remains and is one of
>the more interesting stories...
It's like someone playing GTA3, who decides not to steal cars, but
just walks around killing people with the baseball bat, then complains
that the game is too boring and that there is no story.
Of course not, if you don't take the main quest, but just piss around
it's gonna be boring. It's like rewinding a video tape but never
actually hitting play, and claiming the movie is dull. How could you
know ?
R
Morten Wennevik
: "Xocyll" <Xoc...@kingston.net> wrote in message
: news:5s14jukkpn7t0qle3...@4ax.com...
:>
:> Gee, your post boils down to "I wandered around a bit,
: A *bit* ? I've stolen everything that was worth taking and reasonably
: accessible from every fucking town that had any money in it. As far as I
: know I've seen the vast majority of the game's artwork and level design. I
: played it solid for one week to the exclusion of all else, I think that's
: probably 70+ hours of gameplay. If that's only "a bit" then this is a
: long-ass boring game that fails to direct the player to anything really
: great.
Sounds to me you got quite a bit out of that game, in your own way, which
is exactly what Morrowind is about. It doesn't force you to do anything.
chainbreaker
> corridor. Not counting Diablo, the last CRPG I did with any thoroughness
> was Stonekeep back in 1996. That was boring as hell and I uninstalled it.
> The only thing I liked about it was that goblin guy. Oh, and the barrel
> explosions. I mean really, there would have to be some pretty incredible
> scenery or game functionality for me to bother with the Blades plotline.
> "Here are 10 more levels to go through" ain't no draw for me at this
point.
>
Hmmmm, looks like you don't really like CRPGs. I'd suggest something else
for you, but the only other genres I know much about are flight and auto
racing sims. Come to think of it, why don't you give them a try? Or maybe
you'd like Diablo 2 better.
chainbreaker
Hartmut Schmider
> I need your definition of "interesting." Do you mean, it's interesting that
> you get the +147 Longbow Of Hatred later on? Or do you mean interesting as
> a piece of literature?
Well, "Anna Karenina" is a piece of literature. Pretensions of that kind
are laughable for a computer game. But out of the Blades quests comes the
main story line of the game, you learn about the role you play in the
scheme of things, and you get to save the world, sort of. The story might
be average as far as RPG's go, but it's not absent.
> Are we on the same page about what a good "story" is? A story doesn't mean
> you get a whole bunch of loot over time. That's a reward curve, not a
> story.
If it's good or bad is debatable. That there is one is not. You just
decided not to follow it. The fact that you still played the thing for 70+
hours speaks volumes about the game. If you swallow your pride and have a
go at the Blades quests, there might be another 50 hours in it for you.
Regards, Hartmut "you might even get to marry the King's daughter" Schmider
--
Hartmut Schmider | Morality is a venereal disease.
Queen's University | Its primary stage is called virtue;
-- | its secondary stage, boredom;
h...@post.queensu.ca | its tertiary stage, syphilis. (Karl Kraus)
R. Cohen
> "Russell Wallace" <rwvorp...@eircom.net> wrote in message
> news:3d322d03....@news.eircom.net...
> > On Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:02:05 GMT, "Brandon Van Every"
> > <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Really, I've gotten no story out of Morrowind. Well, no *focused* story.
> > >There's plenty of backstories and atmospherics. But what the hell am I
> > >doing here? Why should I care about any of the quests at all?
> >
>
> Emperor, I wanted cloak-and-dagger political intrigue. I wanted to be a
> leftist pinko healer in a right wing "kill all the monsters and take all the
> loot" world. That self-image evaporated pretty quickly when I realized (1)
> there was apparently no political depth to Morrowind, the quests would
> simply be go over here, get this for me (2) my self-image led me to bad
> stats, there was no roleplay in a dramatic sense, I was merely being
> penalized for bad stat choices (3) making potions is godawful tedious
> because of the UI, and would still be tedious even with a better UI.
>
You *think* it was supposed to be about that. Actually it has little
to do with that. I'm not sure if the main Morrowind story is
"great", it's decent. The path to the end is fairly interesting. The
quests to get to the end were interesting in my mind.
There is some political intrique but not *really* in connection with
the main plot. At least of the quests I've tried so far. I think
many of the house and guild quests have more of this kind of gameplay.
> I was tired of killing everything in sight because I'd just done that to
> death in Diablo II. So I wanted to advance without killing. So I became a
> thief and stole everything.
>
Yet that's how you played the game. Guess what? It seems like a game
of diablo2 doesn't it?
Believe it or not but there are large portions of this game where
little killing is required. Sometimes bribery, persuasion and
trickery works even better.
> I just have no faith that the characterization and dialogue of the main
> story in Morrowind is any good. 70+ hours of gameplay says that Bethesda
> writers are boring and could never make it in either film, TV, or books.
>
> The strength of Morrowind is it's a good-looking world and lets you wander
> around openly.
For me, the strength of Morrowind is how you can develop any number of
chracters with widely varied characteristics and the huge game world.
There may be people who completed every single quest one time through
but I don't see how that can really be practically done.
Gouge
"Mike Noren" <mike_no...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1gj5ju0aqj7ba8d8t...@4ax.com...
very good, and have a great story, I still wouldn't call it an excellently
crafted work of literature. This is of course my opinion. But it is true,
if most games could have a story just as good, it would be good for gamers.
Gouge
Brandon Van Every
"Gouge" <deep...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:agu9mm$40e$1...@news.efn.org...
>
> "Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message
> news:yStY8.21935$A43.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
an
> > excellently crafted, directed work of literature.
>
> What video games are? I mean really? Name one video game the qualifies
as
> an excellently craft work of literature? Just one.
Someone in this thread claims Final Fantasy 10 is. I haven't played it. I
do have a writer friend who played FF8 or some such that thought highly of
the character development. I saw the FF movie and thought it was a good
story, even if I could see why that particular story clearly wouldn't do
well at the box office. I suppose at long last I'll have to play one of the
FF games, because they're the only ones I've heard about that are making a
full-blown effort at story. Well, there are some old interactive fiction
titles, but I'm interested in contemporary, commercially viable work.
> Hmm. You seem to be really excited about the violent portions of video
> games. Morrowind has plenty of violence, but not on the level you desire.
> Can I suggest GTA3, or maybe Counterstrike?
I'll get around to it. Right now, I'm more interested in problems of story.
> I think being able to play a game for 70+ hours and not even play the main
> story is a good thing. For a game to draw you in for 70+ hours, it must
> have done something for you?
Like I said, the landscape sucked me in. Once I'd seen it all, then there's
no further draw. The levelling up was fun for awhile but then got old. I'm
pretty clear on what's required for good levelling up, there has to be a
reward every 20 minutes or so. Eventually you realize a game isn't giving
you much for the time you're spending on it, then you quit.
I haven't heard *one* person defend the main storyline as somehow being an
excellent story. Can someone honestly say the main storyline is something
better than "go here, go there, get this coffee for me?"
I'm probably going to reinstall the damn thing, play as a mage, and follow
the Blade storyline to the letter of what it has me do, for as long as I
think there's something amusing about it. Just to prove that it's the
complete shit that I think it probably is, based on my experience with 70+
hours of the rest of the game. And, as a side benefit, I'll be using spells
which is something I haven't done to death in Diablo II, Morrowind, or any
other CRPG. As a martial artist my persona is more naturally that of a
sword jock, but playing Diablo II as a Paladin got me really sick of it.
> And the fact that you didn't play the main
> story, makes me think this game is probably a good value.
Depends on what you mean by "value." This depends on one's purposes. The
value I've gotten out of Morrowind is (1) seeing what does and doesn't work
in big scale visual map design (2) affirming my opinion on reward curves (3)
what makes a violent, sadistic persona entertaining or boring (4) affirming
the total necessity of selling the player on why they should participate in
the main story. Soft sell is *not* the way to go, there should be a major
draw.
> You don't see those types of games, cause people who can write that good,
> get better jobs writing other things, like books. And if this is what
> you're really after, why not just read a book?
Because I am a game designer and I am sworn to change the industry in this
regard. The future is *not* hack 'n' slash forever. The future is bringing
real story into games. Most people in the game industry poo pooh this
because they don't know anything about story, they're completely incompetent
and unqualified to write stories. They can write 3D engines, artwork, and
stuff to kill. They're happy with that because they're basically juvenile
about cultural aspiration and cosmological purpose. Their work will never
be regarded as Art, and will never make it into a museum except as a pop
cultural retrospective. Their voice in the cosmos will be silent, they are
wholly irrelevant to future generations of mankind.
Hieronymous Bosch and Claude Monet *endure*.
Even Steven Spielberg will endure more than today's game designer.
Brandon Van Every
"Jacob Skaaning" <jska...@email.dk> wrote in message
news:aguih5$2kse$1...@news.cybercity.dk...
>
> DO THE F***ING MAIN QUEST! That's where the story is. Don't yell about a
> game having no story if you didn't follow it. Just be happy that a game
> offers you to do what you like (for 70+ hours even, it seems) instead of
> HAVING to pull that lever to open that next door.
Well, I'm going to try it because there's no other way to know if I'm right
or not. I will say this though: the story in a CRPG *must* secure audience
buy-in. There has to be a sell as to why I should participate in the main
story. This stuff about "oh, you can do the story if you like, or not, and
BTW my dialogue sucks and I'm apparently a one dimensional character" is
bullshit. Or more properly, artless. You don't *have* to straitjacket a
player to tell them the story. But you do have to sell them on their
participation and secure their willing suspension of disbelief. Film, TV,
and theater people know this. Bethesda doesn't know this. All they know is
"not being straitjacketed is cool." Fine, that's true. No stick. But
there *must* be carrot!
--
Cheers, www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
Brandon Van Every
> Replying to "Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> :
>
> >No, I got to the steam robots and dwemer ghosts. I said, "Shit, this is
too
> >hard!" and ran away. First I tried running around evading the monsters,
> >hoping the Dwemer Cube was in plain sight somewhere, but it wasn't. Are
you
> >saying it was up with all the brigands somewhere?
>
> The dwemer cube is very hard to find - it's small and in one of those
> shelves.
>
> It's close inside the entrance to the complex, in on of the first
> rooms. Yell if you need a spoiler regarding exactly where.
It's that much of a fucking pain in the ass??!? Some people in this thread
try to defend the story value of Morrowind's main plot, and this is the kind
of shit they have to show for it??!? I killed *all* of those brigands!
Forget story, this sounds like Bethesda doesn't even know Interactive
Fiction 101.
> I only ever ran into two needle-in-haystack type missions - the dwemer
> cube is one,
Great. The bloody 1st mission in the whole fucking main storyline. GREAT.
Oh, *and* you get told that you should go do something else before even
starting the main storyline. As far as presenting a story goes, THESE GAME
DESIGNERS ARE IDIOTS!!!!
> and a smuggled dwemer artefact another (and the second
> one is a lot worse).
Is that the one in Hla Oad where you're supposed to get back 3 Dwemer
artifacts for the head of the Thieves' Guild in Balmora? I thought there
would be something more clever or intricate about that quest, since there
was this whole underground smuggling area to look through. I thought I must
need to talk to someone, convince someone, ask someone, bribe someone to
find the secret chest buried in the ground or something. Turns out the
stuff was just locked in a chest upstairs and I didn't have a high enough
Security to break into it yet. That said, I could have bought a scroll, it
was only a 35 point lock. The problem is I was expecting the quest to be a
lot more interesting than it actually was. If I had a more mundane
attitude, if I had thought of my role as "hey boy, go get coffee" I would
have found it easily.
I'll have to remember that mantra when I try the main quest. "Hey boy, go
get coffee." I bet it proves to be the unifying, underlying object of all
Morrowind quests.
Actually I did like the first Puzzle Cube problem though, where you have to
breathe the holy water. It was hard enough to make me mull over it and try
some wrong approaches, like casting a water breathing spell and staying
under forever. Easy enough that after some struggle, I solved it.
> >> The point IS to finish the main quest, which is where the story is.
> >
> >Yes, but is the story any good? Or is it lame shit like the Thieves'
> >quests?
>
> It's better than the house quests, though by no means outstanding.
The straight scoop from someone at last. So, is there *any* outstanding
quest in Morrowind? What's the best quest?
Brandon Van Every
"Gerry Quinn" <ger...@indigo.ie> wrote in message
news:_MyY8.2125$zX3....@news.indigo.ie...
>
> The quests are far too FedEx though, no improvement over Daggerfall.
> Maybe someone will come up with some more exciting mods.
I could do it if the tools allow me to change enough stuff. But the medium
is the massage. It might be FedEx because that's all it's capable of. I'll
look at it as part of my postmortem rituals though. Contemplate the
viability. If nothing else I'll figure out what a mod tool would actually
need to have.
A minor positive note: some of the quests are clearly FedEx, but amusing. I
feel that way about several of the Vivee quests, which have a "Merchant of
Venice" atmosphere about them. I suppose I get a kick out of solving
problems for people that are fairly stupid, like "I hate that fool outside
my door. Will you please get rid of him??!?" Well I declined because I
thought I'd have to murder him, and that wasn't my line of work. But later
on I learned that I could have sent him away to acting school, and I thought
that was an amusing ending.
Brandon Van Every
"Fidelio" <r...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:3d32e6a0$0$94886$e4fe...@dreader3.news.xs4all.nl...
>
> It's like someone playing GTA3, who decides not to steal cars, but
> just walks around killing people with the baseball bat, then complains
> that the game is too boring and that there is no story.
>
> Of course not, if you don't take the main quest, but just piss around
> it's gonna be boring. It's like rewinding a video tape but never
> actually hitting play, and claiming the movie is dull. How could you
> know ?
And what if the main story is actually just as boring as the rest of the
game? We'll see. Right now, I don't trust everyone's judgement around
here. I suspect that many are easily pleased.
Brandon Van Every
"Morten Wennevik" <mp...@alfred.uib.no> wrote in message
news:aguovn$hi7$5...@toralf.uib.no...
>
> Sounds to me you got quite a bit out of that game, in your own way, which
> is exactly what Morrowind is about. It doesn't force you to do anything.
Look, "it doesn't force you to do anything" isn't the be-all end-all of open
ended game design, and we need to recognize and get over this. What about
*persuading* you to do something? All popular films persuade their
audiences to watch them, or they die at the box office. There are things
you have to do in a narrative work to persuade, and Bethesda doesn't do
them.
Brandon Van Every
"Hartmut Schmider" <h...@post.queensu.ca> wrote in message
news:85ele46...@post.queensu.ca...
> "Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> writes:
>
> > I need your definition of "interesting." Do you mean, it's interesting
that
> > you get the +147 Longbow Of Hatred later on? Or do you mean interesting
as
> > a piece of literature?
>
> Well, "Anna Karenina" is a piece of literature. Pretensions of that kind
> are laughable for a computer game.
I don't think so, and I think bygone interactive fiction authors would take
issue with you. Actually, most of the rec.arts.int-fiction crowd would take
issue with you.
> But out of the Blades quests comes the
> main story line of the game, you learn about the role you play in the
> scheme of things, and you get to save the world, sort of. The story might
> be average as far as RPG's go, but it's not absent.
Well that's the rub, really. When do we get to move beyond the average RPG
story?
Fidelio
>You *think* it was supposed to be about that. Actually it has little
>to do with that. I'm not sure if the main Morrowind story is
>"great", it's decent. The path to the end is fairly interesting. The
>quests to get to the end were interesting in my mind.
It's not just killing, having to have all houses, 5 leaders each,
recognise you as master, then have 4 tribes recognise you as the
chosen one, that's about as good a story as you can get. Not linear,
no killing, a satisfying experience.
R
Rod
I try to do all quests in all games... and wasn't enjoying the game, I felt
lost.
When I concentrated on the main plot, then the game turned good for me. I
concentrated on the main plot and some wizard quests. I didn't go the
'leveling and killing' way. I finished the game at only level 21, never
even saw a vampire (except the required one). Did you know you could become
a vampire and join a 'secret society'? It's just one of the things you can
do outside the main quest. I built a stronghold for myself (or made one
built actually), and I didn't even try the thief and warrior quests, and
only one of the houses' quest lines.
When you say you 'stole' everything on every shop, that is nothing compared
to what you can make by yourself using the item enchanters in the wizard
guilds.
Quests start small, as you must gain the trust of the guild. As you go up
in rank, quests are more involved/dangerous/interesting.
But hey, if you liked Diablo 2, chances are you don't like this type of
games no matter what we say. To me it is the other way around, no matter
what people said about Diablo 2, I just didn't like it
"Russell Wallace" <rwvorp...@eircom.net> wrote in message
news:3d322d03....@news.eircom.net...
> On Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:02:05 GMT, "Brandon Van Every"
> <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote:
>
> >Really, I've gotten no story out of Morrowind. Well, no *focused* story.
> >There's plenty of backstories and atmospherics. But what the hell am I
> >doing here? Why should I care about any of the quests at all?
>
> What CRPGs _have_ you enjoyed?
>
> I haven't played Morrowind myself, but if you gave some examples of
> what you do like, people who've played Morrowind might be able to say
> "here's how to find that in this game", or else "well no then, it's
> not likely to be to your tastes, you should play something else
> instead".
>
Brandon Van Every
"R. Cohen" <rlcc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a140b0ad.02071...@posting.google.com...
> "Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message
news:<bDtY8.21924$A43.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>
> > death in Diablo II. So I wanted to advance without killing. So I
became a
> > thief and stole everything.
> >
>
> Yet that's how you played the game. Guess what? It seems like a game
> of diablo2 doesn't it?
No, it was not. You can't steal anything in Diablo II. If it was like
another game, it was more like Thief II than anything else. I made a lot of
comparisions to Thief II in my own mind. Not the least of which because
they both have fantasy steamer stuff in them. Thief II is still the
superior game for being a thief, but it's interesting to see how you can
still do a legitimate "thief" thing in Morrowind using simpler mechanics.
If there was a Morrowind II I'd suggest that they change the NPC's
intelligence some. NPCs should be aware that you're in their house if
they've seen you. Just standing behind a pillar taking stuff shouldn't be
allowed. If they see that you're in the house, and that your stuff was
there one minute, but now they can see that it's gone, they should yell
"Thief!" So, you have to steal stuff when people aren't looking *and* get
out of the house before somebody sees that their stuff is gone. This means
some NPCs are easy marks and others aren't.
NPCs should also follow you around. You shouldn't be able to go into
someone's bedroom when they're watching you. "Excuse me, what do you think
you're doing?" Really, to be a good thief, you'd have to break into second
story windows and the like.
Finally, although it would be ambitious, making all level designs continuous
ala Dungeon Siege would certainly add a lot to being a thief. You couldn't
just run out the front door and be safe.
Fidelio
>"Morten Wennevik" <mp...@alfred.uib.no> wrote in message
>news:aguovn$hi7$5...@toralf.uib.no...
>>
>> Sounds to me you got quite a bit out of that game, in your own way, which
>> is exactly what Morrowind is about. It doesn't force you to do anything.
>Look, "it doesn't force you to do anything" isn't the be-all end-all of open
>ended game design, and we need to recognize and get over this. What about
>*persuading* you to do something? All popular films persuade their
>audiences to watch them, or they die at the box office. There are things
>you have to do in a narrative work to persuade, and Bethesda doesn't do
>them.
When I met up with Caius after fucking around a bit walking around,
he raised my interest, and I got to do these blades quests, i guess
1% of the players would say 'no, that shirtless dude is just a loser'
and walk off, well middle finger to them. you get sucked in, and it;s
been done well enough, morrowind does have a good story and lots of
distraction also.
In other games you follow a path, enclosed in high ridges or depts,
so that there is only one way to walk, with monsters to be slain
all the time and chests to be opened afterwards. Totally linear.
This game isn't, and you should love it for it.
R
Brandon Van Every
>
> It's not just killing, having to have all houses, 5 leaders each,
> recognise you as master, then have 4 tribes recognise you as the
> chosen one, that's about as good a story as you can get. Not linear,
> no killing, a satisfying experience.
Why does this strike me as Taco Bell's "Collect all six Warner Brothers
drinking glasses" from my childhood? I'm not interested in 9 different
FedEx assignments. My experience with Thieves and Mages Guild assignments
is that they're dull.
But, I am going to try again with the Blade quests and see how it goes. If
it sucks, I'm going to say all you people who defended Morrowind's
storylines in any way were wrong, and I'm right. Otherwise... well, we'll
cross that bridge if I come to it.
--
Cheers, www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
> R
>
Mike Noren
>> The dwemer cube is very hard to find - it's small and in one of those
>> shelves.
>>
>> It's close inside the entrance to the complex, in on of the first
>> rooms. Yell if you need a spoiler regarding exactly where.
>
>It's that much of a fucking pain in the ass??!? Some people in this thread
>try to defend the story value of Morrowind's main plot, and this is the kind
>of shit they have to show for it??!? I killed *all* of those brigands!
>Forget story, this sounds like Bethesda doesn't even know Interactive
>Fiction 101.
Well it's not that hard, but unless you know where it is you're rather
unlikely to see it. They could well have made the cube more visible,
e.g. by using a contrasting color.
>> I only ever ran into two needle-in-haystack type missions - the dwemer
>> cube is one,
>
>Great. The bloody 1st mission in the whole fucking main storyline. GREAT.
>Oh, *and* you get told that you should go do something else before even
>starting the main storyline. As far as presenting a story goes, THESE GAME
>DESIGNERS ARE IDIOTS!!!!
Well, I wouldn't say that, but that quest sure wont win any awards -
there's a non-lethal scripting bug in it too...
>> and a smuggled dwemer artefact another (and the second
>> one is a lot worse).
>
>Is that the one in Hla Oad where you're supposed to get back 3 Dwemer
>artifacts for the head of the Thieves' Guild in Balmora?
Nope. That particular quest is sillier than the one you describe.
You'll know when you hit it. It's the only quest which made me want to
reach out and punch someone.
>> >Yes, but is the story any good? Or is it lame shit like the Thieves'
>> >quests?
>>
>> It's better than the house quests, though by no means outstanding.
>
>The straight scoop from someone at last. So, is there *any* outstanding
>quest in Morrowind? What's the best quest?
IMO? The corprusarium and the story about the missing dwarves. After a
while I started really wondering what had happened to them. I don't
feel the outcome of the search for that answer spoilt anything,
either. Quite OK by me.
Mike Noren
>> >What video games are? I mean really? Name one video game the qualifies
>as
>> >an excellently craft work of literature? Just one.
>>
>> Planescape: Torment.
>>
>I knew someone was gonnasay that.
Well, when the goalie leaves the goal open like that I sortof HAVE to
shoot. If you'd said 'name two' I'd have been stumped, though.
> And while I find Planescape:Torment to be
>very good, and have a great story, I still wouldn't call it an excellently
>crafted work of literature.
I would; the way the threads fall together, the way characters are
brought to life and defined by just hints of their inner workings in
the conversations is just beautiful. I would, just as an instance,
consider it to completely destroy anything Stephen King has ever
written. I'll grant that that isn't hard, but I think it highlights
the fact that there isn't really any such beast as 'Literature' with a
reverential capital L.
I get the impression that you're trying to make a distinction between
media - between computer games and the written word. That just lands
you in a different morass, and the definition of what is Literature
doesn't change:
'Literature' is, in my opinion, just another name for something
written by some old guy, preferrably long dead, whom other old guys
rather liked.
In my personal opinion PS:T is among the most rewarding works of
fiction I've ever enjoyed, right up there with Macchiavelli,
Pratchett, Tolkien, Hemingway or Joyce, far above Zola, Tolstoy,
Strindberg and King.
My personal opinion, of course; others will no doubt disagree, as is
their right.
>Gouge
Gouge
"Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message
>
> "Gouge" <deep...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:agu9mm$40e$1...@news.efn.org...
> >
> > "Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message
> > news:yStY8.21935$A43.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> > >
> > > I've got an atmospheric sense of what Morrowind is about. It is *not*
> an
> > > excellently crafted, directed work of literature.
> >
> > What video games are? I mean really? Name one video game the qualifies
> as
> > an excellently craft work of literature? Just one.
>
> Someone in this thread claims Final Fantasy 10 is. I haven't played it.
I
> do have a writer friend who played FF8 or some such that thought highly of
> the character development. I saw the FF movie and thought it was a good
> story, even if I could see why that particular story clearly wouldn't do
> well at the box office. I suppose at long last I'll have to play one of
the
> FF games, because they're the only ones I've heard about that are making a
> full-blown effort at story. Well, there are some old interactive fiction
> titles, but I'm interested in contemporary, commercially viable work.
Maybe, I've never been impressed with the Final Fantasy games. So I'm
probably not gonna play it based on this. The ones I've played, or have
seen played, have somewhat poor stories, in my opinion of course. Very
cliche, and not done all that well. Not too say some people don't like em,
ya either like em or ya don't. Like just about everything else, in this
thread and elsewhere, it's a matter of opinion.
> > Hmm. You seem to be really excited about the violent portions of video
> > games. Morrowind has plenty of violence, but not on the level you
desire.
> > Can I suggest GTA3, or maybe Counterstrike?
I hear GTA3 is actually quite good. I'm not sure about story, but I've
heard it compared to Morrowind in other areas.
> I'll get around to it. Right now, I'm more interested in problems of
story.
Yeah, it's an interesting topic. I'm not sure I agree with a lot of what
you have to say, but interesting none the less.
> > I think being able to play a game for 70+ hours and not even play the
main
> > story is a good thing. For a game to draw you in for 70+ hours, it must
> > have done something for you?
>
> Like I said, the landscape sucked me in. Once I'd seen it all, then
there's
> no further draw. The levelling up was fun for awhile but then got old.
I'm
> pretty clear on what's required for good levelling up, there has to be a
> reward every 20 minutes or so. Eventually you realize a game isn't giving
> you much for the time you're spending on it, then you quit.
Not sure I agree here. A reward? Maybe, what I'd like better would be just
new stuff. Not exactly "leveling up", and probably not required every 20
mins, my attention span is a good deal longer than that. Leveling up
traditionally means gaining new hit points, new skills, etc. And it usually
works in a very linear fashion. The reward for going from level 10 to level
11 and from 29 to 30, is usually pretty similiar. So after awhile it does
get boring, very boring, this is especially apparent in the current crop of
MMORPGS. So maybe not leveling up as it is currently implemented in most
games, but something different. I like perks in Fallout, and feats in 3rd
edition DnD. These are nice and not super common among rpgs. But I'd go
for even different schemes. I don't think it's the speed at which someone
gains level or rewards, it's the fact that there really isn't anything too
look forward to after awhile, at least in games where the leveling mechanic
remains the same throughout. So basically a scheme that rewards every so
often, but not in the same ways and gives you something to look forward too
and work towards.
> I haven't heard *one* person defend the main storyline as somehow being an
> excellent story. Can someone honestly say the main storyline is something
> better than "go here, go there, get this coffee for me?"
It may be. I haven't played Morrowind, so I've no clue. But a lot of games
have similiar stories and quests. Not that it makes really bad stories
excusable, but I tend to judge the writing in games differently than I do
for most other things. I treat games more like movies or tv. Yeah, I know,
some people are gonna start talking about the art in films and tv, etc. But
to me it's not the same as good literature, writing still seems to be a
better way to tell a story. And there are probably some obvious reasons for
this. which I'm not gonna go into. I'm not saying anything bad about tv and
movies here, I watch a load of both. It's just that I watch movies\tv for
different reasons than I play a game, and different reason than I read a
book. Different mediums, different quality indicators for me.
> I'm probably going to reinstall the damn thing, play as a mage, and follow
> the Blade storyline to the letter of what it has me do, for as long as I
> think there's something amusing about it. Just to prove that it's the
> complete shit that I think it probably is, based on my experience with 70+
> hours of the rest of the game. And, as a side benefit, I'll be using
spells
> which is something I haven't done to death in Diablo II, Morrowind, or any
> other CRPG. As a martial artist my persona is more naturally that of a
> sword jock, but playing Diablo II as a Paladin got me really sick of it.
Doesn't sound like a good reason to play the game to me. Sounds like you're
almost doing it out spite. And you won't be proving anything to anyone,
well, maybe to yourself. But you needn't play the game again for that.
This is a matter of opinion, certain aspects of story telling are more
important to some, and no so much to others. And again, some people play
games for different reason, and use different standards to judge the story
level of a game.
> > And the fact that you didn't play the main
> > story, makes me think this game is probably a good value.
>
> Depends on what you mean by "value." This depends on one's purposes. The
> value I've gotten out of Morrowind is (1) seeing what does and doesn't
work
> in big scale visual map design (2) affirming my opinion on reward curves
(3)
> what makes a violent, sadistic persona entertaining or boring (4)
affirming
> the total necessity of selling the player on why they should participate
in
> the main story. Soft sell is *not* the way to go, there should be a major
> draw.
Different strokes for different folks. The fact that it isn't required or
forced on the player, is a big selling point. The game plays very much like
Daggerfall. You either love it, or you don't. Nothing was promised here
that didn't happen. Bethesda set out to make a very specific game, and it
looks like they've done it. Of course I could be wrong, again, I havent
actually played the game.
> > You don't see those types of games, cause people who can write that
good,
> > get better jobs writing other things, like books. And if this is what
> > you're really after, why not just read a book?
>
> Because I am a game designer and I am sworn to change the industry in this
> regard. The future is *not* hack 'n' slash forever. The future is
bringing
> real story into games. Most people in the game industry poo pooh this
> because they don't know anything about story, they're completely
incompetent
> and unqualified to write stories. They can write 3D engines, artwork, and
> stuff to kill. They're happy with that because they're basically juvenile
> about cultural aspiration and cosmological purpose. Their work will never
> be regarded as Art, and will never make it into a museum except as a pop
> cultural retrospective. Their voice in the cosmos will be silent, they
are
> wholly irrelevant to future generations of mankind.
As an art form, video games are really still in their infancy. There is
good stuff here and there, but I think there is a lot of growth to take
place.
So you're a game designer? What have you designed? And how is the
writing?.....;)
> Hieronymous Bosch and Claude Monet *endure*.
>
> Even Steven Spielberg will endure more than today's game designer.
Maybe, guess I just don't care that much. I do like the conversation, but
whether or not designer X is remembered as a great artist, isn't that
important to me. Maybe it's important to you cause you're a game
designer?......;)
Gouge
Bill Silvey
"Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message
> I did finish the game
> and beat Diablo, as opposed to destroying the CD, so that means I got a
> certain amount of enjoyment out of it. However, I was sorely tempted to
> destroy the CD at one point, so I probably got the bare minimum amount of
> enjoyment necessary above my CD destruction threshold.
Oh, OK. WHBT. Gotcha. <plonk>
--
http://home.cfl.rr.com/delversdungeon/index.htm
Remove the X's in my email address to respond.
Me: "What you have to understand, dear, is that the internet is a global
community...a village!"
My Wife: "And you're the village idiot, right?"
Russell Wallace
wrote:
>I hear GTA3 is actually quite good. I'm not sure about story, but I've
>heard it compared to Morrowind in other areas.
Storywise I didn't think much of GTA3 (by and large you're not killing
people _for_ anything other than the fact that it's the expedient
thing to do at the time), but it's not a game that's really about
story - what's outstanding about it is the technology, the interactive
environment. And those are truly superb, as far as I know nothing like
it has been done before. I'd recommend at least renting it out just to
take a look (assuming that's the sort of thing that appeals to you).
Gerry Quinn
>
>"Gerry Quinn" <ger...@indigo.ie> wrote in message
>news:_MyY8.2125$zX3....@news.indigo.ie...
>>
>> The quests are far too FedEx though, no improvement over Daggerfall.
>> Maybe someone will come up with some more exciting mods.
>
>I could do it if the tools allow me to change enough stuff. But the medium
>is the massage. It might be FedEx because that's all it's capable of. I'll
>look at it as part of my postmortem rituals though. Contemplate the
>viability. If nothing else I'll figure out what a mod tool would actually
>need to have.
Maybe FedEx is all you need, just as locks and keys are all you need to
set up a maze of any given complexity. It's all about how it's
presented.
- Gerry Quinn
Carlos Gomez
wrote:
>What video games are? I mean really? Name one video game the qualifies as
>an excellently craft work of literature? Just one.
Betrayal at Krondor wasn't too bad.
Sam 'n' Max Hit the Road was very well scripted.
R. Cohen
> "Fidelio" <r...@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:3d334769$0$12288$e4fe...@dreader4.news.xs4all.nl...
> >
> > It's not just killing, having to have all houses, 5 leaders each,
> > recognise you as master, then have 4 tribes recognise you as the
> > chosen one, that's about as good a story as you can get. Not linear,
> > no killing, a satisfying experience.
>
> Why does this strike me as Taco Bell's "Collect all six Warner Brothers
> drinking glasses" from my childhood? I'm not interested in 9 different
> FedEx assignments. My experience with Thieves and Mages Guild assignments
> is that they're dull.
>
> But, I am going to try again with the Blade quests and see how it goes. If
> it sucks, I'm going to say all you people who defended Morrowind's
> storylines in any way were wrong, and I'm right. Otherwise... well, we'll
> cross that bridge if I come to it.
>
It may not be the best story in all of CRPGdom but there certainly is
something of a story. Especially more of a story then killing all
people in sight and/or stealing every thing in sight. You may still
hate the game and story, but at least your criticism will have more...
*weight*.
Werner Arend
> "Jacob Skaaning" <jska...@email.dk> wrote in message
> news:aguih5$2kse$1...@news.cybercity.dk...
>
>>DO THE F***ING MAIN QUEST! That's where the story is. Don't yell about a
>>game having no story if you didn't follow it. Just be happy that a game
>>offers you to do what you like (for 70+ hours even, it seems) instead of
>>HAVING to pull that lever to open that next door.
>>
>
> Well, I'm going to try it because there's no other way to know if I'm right
> or not. I will say this though: the story in a CRPG *must* secure audience
> buy-in. There has to be a sell as to why I should participate in the main
> story. This stuff about "oh, you can do the story if you like, or not, and
> BTW my dialogue sucks and I'm apparently a one dimensional character" is
> bullshit. Or more properly, artless. You don't *have* to straitjacket a
> player to tell them the story. But you do have to sell them on their
> participation and secure their willing suspension of disbelief. Film, TV,
> and theater people know this. Bethesda doesn't know this. All they know is
> "not being straitjacketed is cool." Fine, that's true. No stick. But
> there *must* be carrot!
For me, there was carrot enough. Do you know why you are released from
prison and suddenly find yourself with a job at - the Emperor's spy
service, of all things? IMO, for anyone with a minimum of curiosity,
that's enough carrot even if you don't count the references to some
mysterious cult made by your spy master.
Having said that, Morrowind's story is one of the weaker ones I have
seen in a CRPG. Don't expect anything like PS:T, Deus Ex, BG2 or
Fallout.
Werner
Werner Arend
Mike Noren wrote:
> Replying to "Gouge" <deep...@yahoo.com> :
>
> In my personal opinion PS:T is among the most rewarding works of
> fiction I've ever enjoyed, right up there with Macchiavelli,
> Pratchett, Tolkien, Hemingway or Joyce, far above Zola, Tolstoy,
> Strindberg and King.
Has Macchiavelli written fiction?
BTW, I do agree. When evaluating "works of fiction" without regard
to media, you need to take into account that some things must be
done in a different way for games, compared with books. But many
of the most rewarding and intriguing attributes remain so regardless
of whether it is a book, a movie or a computer game.
BTW, did you know that Deus Ex has won a high-profile prize for media
art? I don't remember the name, it was by some British adademy. IIRC,
this is the first computer game to have achieved such a thing. I found
DX's story nearly as good as PS:T's, and without the annoyingly D&Dish
concepts of the planes in PS:T.
Werner
Werner
Gerry Quinn
I am also one of those, who, while recognising that PS:T has a good
story and thoughtful 'asides', think that Deionnara's sensory stone
resembles Danielle Steele more than it resembles Tolstoy. Not that I'm
a big reader of either...
For me, though, even PS:T wasn't enough to overcome the horrors of the
Infinity Engine, though it was by far the closest...
- Gerry Quinn
Gerry Quinn
>But hey, if you liked Diablo 2, chances are you don't like this type of
>games no matter what we say. To me it is the other way around, no matter
>what people said about Diablo 2, I just didn't like it
I like both! I'm hooked on D2-LOD right now (druids are fun), but once
it's finished I will go back to MW.
- Gerry Quinn
chainbreaker
"Gerry Quinn" <ger...@indigo.ie> wrote in message news:kCSY8.2372>
> I like both! I'm hooked on D2-LOD right now (druids are fun), but once
> it's finished I will go back to MW.
>
> - Gerry Quinn
Er, actually it's impossible to "finish" D2-LOD, I think. I've been trying
for months now--there's always "just one more thing". :-)
chainbreaker
Mike Noren
>> In my personal opinion PS:T is among the most rewarding works of
>> fiction I've ever enjoyed, right up there with Macchiavelli,
>> Pratchett, Tolkien, Hemingway or Joyce, far above Zola, Tolstoy,
>> Strindberg and King.
>
>Has Macchiavelli written fiction?
Ouch. Point granted.
>BTW, did you know that Deus Ex has won a high-profile prize for media
>art? I don't remember the name, it was by some British adademy. IIRC,
>this is the first computer game to have achieved such a thing. I found
>DX's story nearly as good as PS:T's, and without the annoyingly D&Dish
>concepts of the planes in PS:T.
I am probably one of the few persons in this newsgroup who has not
played Deus Ex, apparently to my loss.
I downloaded the demo, and was so appalled by the quality of the
graphics (ie I had to have the crowbar lying on the jetty pointed out
to me by a friend, as the brown crowbar was so difficult to see
against the rest of the graphics, all of it brown), the enemy AI (I
simply walked in and blew everyone away with my gun), and the type of
problems presented (dive from jetty to find hidden bonus equipment;
push-and-jump-on-crates to reach air vent. Puhleeze!) that I never
bought the game.
From a FPS perspective, which is the _only_ perspective you get from
the demo, Deus Ex is crap. I've been told that the demo isn't a good
indication of how the game plays, but it so thoroughly turned me off
from playing Deus Ex that I've never managed to motivate myself into
buying it even from bargain bins...
I know, I should give it a chance, but everytime I hear 'deus ex' the
memories of that really poor demo comes back to haunt me.
As an aside I agree that the D&D planes concept is annoying, and IMO
more than a bit confused. As is the alignment concept. That those two
concepts are intertwined doesn't help either...
>Werner
Brandon Van Every
"Rod" <wolf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:myHY8.548159$cQ3.49774@sccrnsc01...
>
> But hey, if you liked Diablo 2, chances are you don't like this type of
> games no matter what we say. To me it is the other way around, no matter
> what people said about Diablo 2, I just didn't like it
I mostly did not like Diablo 2. When did I say I liked Diablo 2?
You guys are wrong. The main plotline SUCKS. It is POORLY WRITTEN. The
characters are ZERO DIMENSIONAL. The dialogue is CRAP. What did I get
after finally getting my Dwemer Puzzle Box? "Go talk to this mage. She'll
have some silly errand for you to do, blah blah blah." That's *not*
dialogue! That's programmer placeholder crap scriptwriting. It wasn't just
implicitly a FedEx assignment, it was explicitly so. Nudge nudge, wink
wink, saynomore saynomore, let us tell you how we're about to bore you to
death! Again! All of the quests I've played *royally* suck. No
exceptions. Currently that's Thief, Mage, and Blade, and at this rate
that's all it's ever going to be.
All I'm getting out of the game at this point is whether archery is
inherently fun or not. When I've reached a conclusion on that, out it goes.
Blade quests are shit.
People keep saying "you must have gotten something out of the game to play
it 70+ hours!" I'll say again: it wasn't the story. It was the scenery.
Now I've put in another 16 hours proving that Blade quests suck. I told
myself so!
--
Cheers, www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
>
Brandon Van Every
> something of a story.
It's a bullshit meandering story. The problem with the game industry is
there are almost no talented writers in it. Game developers don't value
writing, they value scenery and physics.
Brandon Van Every
>
> When I met up with Caius after fucking around a bit walking around,
> he raised my interest, and I got to do these blades quests, i guess
> 1% of the players would say 'no, that shirtless dude is just a loser'
Actually I kept thinking he's a homosexual. This was conclusively proven
when the naked Celt from west of Caldera walked into the spy office with me.
As the Elvish studgirl I was severely tempted to take off my clothes and
taunt their manly fixations with one another.
> and walk off, well middle finger to them. you get sucked in,
Well, if 99% of people who play CRPGs think "Hey buddy! Go do this!" is
cool dialogue, character, and plot, I think that says why CRPGs aren't of
mainstream interest to popular culture.
> In other games you follow a path, enclosed in high ridges or depts,
> so that there is only one way to walk, with monsters to be slain
> all the time and chests to be opened afterwards. Totally linear.
Morrowind is enclosed by yes/no decisions. The only real option for
advancing a given quest plotline is to answer "yes." Yes I will continue
the quest, or no I will abandon the quest. Do I actually get to do anything
different *within* a quest? No, I have to go FedEx something and receive
lousy dialogue while I'm at it.
> This game isn't, and you should love it for it.
What's so great about having a random access collection of mediocre linear
quests?
Brandon Van Every
>
> I know, I should give it a chance, but everytime I hear 'deus ex' the
> memories of that really poor demo comes back to haunt me.
Why? If the demo sucks the demo sucks. I thought the graphics were ugly.
Might have been ok a few years ago. Now, you can go spend your money on Max
Payne or something. There's no reason to pick up old titles if they're very
ugly and you play their demos and think they suck. Pick up something new.
I picked up Diablo II because a lot of people thought it was good, and I
thought the demo had some fun aspects to it. I didn't pick it up because it
sucked.
kyle
games? You act as if morrowind was some brand new game that had a bunch of
promises to be the greatest story ever or something.. As I recall the other
games had rather vague stories at first as well(you actually had to talk to
other characters and learn about the world and whats going on based on what
they said).. I also find it funny that you act as if you had done
everything, yet you were impressed by the shrine that made you levitate..
you do realize its quite easy to do that on your own right? and you have to
give a levitaiton potion to the shrine for it to work anyways? Im guessing
you havent been in many telvanni towers(amongst other places in this game)..
peace,
kyle
kyle
> I've proved to my satisfaction that all the quests suck.
You are playing a game to prove the quests suck?... thats depressing heh,
why not find a game you actually enjoy?
peace,
kyle
Hartmut Schmider
> > Well, "Anna Karenina" is a piece of literature. Pretensions of that kind
> > are laughable for a computer game.
>
> I don't think so, and I think bygone interactive fiction authors would take
> issue with you. Actually, most of the rec.arts.int-fiction crowd would take
> issue with you.
True. But interactive fiction uses at least a somewhat related medium (the
written word). I would still hesitate to call it "literature", and place
any RPG, including PS:T, somewhere between fantasy comix and cartoons. Mind
you, nothing against fantasy comix and cartoons. No need for anyone to take
issue with me, just an opinion, and you know what they about those.
Regards, Hartmut "ymmv" Schmider
--
Hartmut Schmider | Morality is a venereal disease.
Queen's University | Its primary stage is called virtue;
-- | its secondary stage, boredom;
h...@post.queensu.ca | its tertiary stage, syphilis. (Karl Kraus)
Brandon Van Every
>
> Well it's not that hard, but unless you know where it is you're rather
> unlikely to see it. They could well have made the cube more visible,
> e.g. by using a contrasting color.
Actually, I apologize to the cosmos for flying off the handle about the
Dwemer Puzzle Box. Turns out it wasn't that hard to find at all, it was in
plain sight in one of the first rooms. For some odd reason, I missed that
room when I first cleaned out the upper area. This led me to believe that
the Box must be deeper in the ruins, down with the ghosts and steamer droids
I couldn't kill.
> >Is that the one in Hla Oad where you're supposed to get back 3 Dwemer
> >artifacts for the head of the Thieves' Guild in Balmora?
>
> Nope. That particular quest is sillier than the one you describe.
> You'll know when you hit it. It's the only quest which made me want to
> reach out and punch someone.
I'm not going to hit it. In 86+ hours of gameplay I've seen 80% of
Morrowind's artwork, based on the assumption that underground dungeons are
going to be mostly corridors with occasional original art. The graphics are
good but won't entertain forever, I'm at the point of diminishing returns.
I've proved to my satisfaction that all the quests suck. The only frontier
left to me is whether there's any class type that's interesting that I
haven't looked at yet. I'm still playing with archer arrows. I've done
thieves to death. I think the hand-to-hand combat is boring, so I won't do
anything with fighters. I think the mages are pretty wussy and the
spellcasting graphics are bad. Maybe a very high-level mage is more
interesting, but I have my doubts since all the spell types are described in
the manual. At any rate, I definitely don't have the patience to level up a
mage. I've seen too much of the game already.
I suppose I could enter a cheat code and test a high level mage in God mode
or something.
kyle
>
> Morrowind is enclosed by yes/no decisions. The only real option for
> advancing a given quest plotline is to answer "yes." Yes I will continue
> the quest, or no I will abandon the quest. Do I actually get to do
anything
> different *within* a quest? No, I have to go FedEx something and receive
> lousy dialogue while I'm at it.
>
> > This game isn't, and you should love it for it.
>
> What's so great about having a random access collection of mediocre linear
> quests?
This really shows how little of the game you have played... there are
multiple solutions to almost every quest, I can think of 3 or 4 to some
without even thinking really.. such as solving the mystery of the husbands
widow, kill the bitch and take her deed? steal it from under her nose? be
noble and find out what happened to her husband and avenge him? the choice
is yours, its called role playing, something that you apparently dont like
to do... it seems like you WANT this game to be linear and mediocre.. its
stupid.. seriously, find another game...
peace,
kyle
kyle
"Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message
news:0OGY8.23166$A43.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> "Hartmut Schmider" <h...@post.queensu.ca> wrote in message
> news:85ele46...@post.queensu.ca...
> > "Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> writes:
> >
interesting
> that
> > > you get the +147 Longbow Of Hatred later on? Or do you mean
interesting
> as
> > > a piece of literature?
> >
> > Well, "Anna Karenina" is a piece of literature. Pretensions of that kind
> > are laughable for a computer game.
>
> I don't think so, and I think bygone interactive fiction authors would
take
> issue with you. Actually, most of the rec.arts.int-fiction crowd would
take
> issue with you.
>
> > main story line of the game, you learn about the role you play in the
> > scheme of things, and you get to save the world, sort of. The story
might
> > be average as far as RPG's go, but it's not absent.
>
> Well that's the rub, really. When do we get to move beyond the average
RPG
> story?
>
when someone releases a game that is hyped as having a great story or makes
claims to have one.. morrowind never promised anything like this, you seem
to be holding it to much higher standards than any other game out there...
the fact that YOU make the story is what makes this game what it is
peace,
kyle
kyle
"Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message
your website on the other hand, is a true work of art... seriously, how can
you be a 'game developer' and not understand that different games have
different goals and aims.. whether you like them or not, never had to work
towards a project that wasnt 100% to your liking? Seems like youd be cut
quick if you bitched as much as you do here..
peace,
kyle
chainbreaker
> People keep saying "you must have gotten something out of the game to play
> it 70+ hours!" I'll say again: it wasn't the story. It was the scenery.
> Now I've put in another 16 hours proving that Blade quests suck. I told
> myself so!
>
> --
> Cheers, www.3DProgrammer.com
> Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
>
> 20% of the world is real.
> 80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
>
>
I've figured it out--you derive your enjoyment from computer games by
determining how many different ways they suck! And that's OK--whatever
cranks your tractor . . .
chainbreaker
JH
> People keep saying "you must have gotten something out of the game to
> play it 70+ hours!" I'll say again: it wasn't the story. It was the
> scenery. Now I've put in another 16 hours proving that Blade quests
> suck. I told myself so!
Don't you have a life, sleeping and working?
You started this thread 2 days ago -
and now you have already played 16 hours?
Pretty good - that's 1/3 of the 48 hours!
JH
Mike Noren
>> It may not be the best story in all of CRPGdom but there certainly is
>> something of a story.
>
>It's a bullshit meandering story.
Well... I'd say it's no worse and no better than the story in most
CRPG's.
>The problem with the game industry is
>there are almost no talented writers in it. Game developers don't value
>writing, they value scenery and physics.
I wish that was true.
However, I fear that it's the BUYERS who don't value writing, but
value graphics and physics.
Bill Silvey
"Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message
news:YYWY8.24816$A43.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
>
> "Rod" <wolf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:myHY8.548159$cQ3.49774@sccrnsc01...
> >
> > But hey, if you liked Diablo 2, chances are you don't like this type of
> > games no matter what we say. To me it is the other way around, no
matter
> > what people said about Diablo 2, I just didn't like it
>
> I mostly did not like Diablo 2. When did I say I liked Diablo 2?
>
> You guys are wrong. The main plotline SUCKS. It is POORLY WRITTEN. The
Then go and fuck yourself until you're permanently bent into an "O" shape;
you'll find it much more worthwhile.
Fuck you, jack. "You guys are wrong". Yeah, thanks for the four fucking
one one. Shall I run every goddamned opinion of mine by you and make sure
you agree, sheila? You're a ferocious little girl when you're opinionated.
Asshat.
Gouge
> Replying to Werner Arend <de...@unknown.host.de> :
>
> >> In my personal opinion PS:T is among the most rewarding works of
> >> fiction I've ever enjoyed, right up there with Macchiavelli,
> >> Pratchett, Tolkien, Hemingway or Joyce, far above Zola, Tolstoy,
> >> Strindberg and King.
> >
> >Has Macchiavelli written fiction?
>
> Ouch. Point granted.
Are we only talking about fiction?
> >BTW, did you know that Deus Ex has won a high-profile prize for media
> >art? I don't remember the name, it was by some British adademy. IIRC,
> >this is the first computer game to have achieved such a thing. I found
> >DX's story nearly as good as PS:T's, and without the annoyingly D&Dish
> >concepts of the planes in PS:T.
>
> I am probably one of the few persons in this newsgroup who has not
> played Deus Ex, apparently to my loss.
> I downloaded the demo, and was so appalled by the quality of the
> graphics (ie I had to have the crowbar lying on the jetty pointed out
> to me by a friend, as the brown crowbar was so difficult to see
> against the rest of the graphics, all of it brown), the enemy AI (I
> simply walked in and blew everyone away with my gun), and the type of
> problems presented (dive from jetty to find hidden bonus equipment;
> push-and-jump-on-crates to reach air vent. Puhleeze!) that I never
> bought the game.
I've never played it either, thoug I've wanted to get it for awhile, just to
see what the fuss is about, hard game to get these days.
> From a FPS perspective, which is the _only_ perspective you get from
> the demo, Deus Ex is crap. I've been told that the demo isn't a good
> indication of how the game plays, but it so thoroughly turned me off
> from playing Deus Ex that I've never managed to motivate myself into
> buying it even from bargain bins...
>
> I know, I should give it a chance, but everytime I hear 'deus ex' the
> memories of that really poor demo comes back to haunt me.
>
> As an aside I agree that the D&D planes concept is annoying, and IMO
> more than a bit confused. As is the alignment concept. That those two
> concepts are intertwined doesn't help either...
My main problem with DnD are the rules. And alignment is a pretty outdated
system, though I think it really lends itself pretty well to Torment. As
for the planes, I kinda like the planes idea, for sheer creativity one of
the better campaign settings released by TSR.
Gouge
Gouge
"Carlos Gomez" <cgo...@mailcity.com> wrote in message
news:a8v6juoj75ebt545r...@4ax.com...
I like Betrayal at Krondor, one of my favorites, never played Sam 'n' Max.
Anyway, I apologize for the question, it wasn't well thought out on my part.
I like BAK, I don't think it's great literature, opinions will vary.
Gouge
Gouge
> Replying to "Gouge" <deep...@yahoo.com> :
>
> >> >What video games are? I mean really? Name one video game the
qualifies
> >as
> >> >an excellently craft work of literature? Just one.
> >>
> >>
> >I knew someone was gonnasay that.
>
> shoot. If you'd said 'name two' I'd have been stumped, though.
Hahahaha. I kinda thought about saying, name one besides Torment.
Anyway, it was probably a bad statement on my part. Because it's open to
opinion. I was just responding to the posters crys for great literature in
video games, great art that will be remembered. Those are his sentiments,
not mine, but I shoulda known posting the question the way I did, would open
a can of worms.
> > And while I find Planescape:Torment to be
> >very good, and have a great story, I still wouldn't call it an
excellently
> >crafted work of literature.
>
> I would; the way the threads fall together, the way characters are
> brought to life and defined by just hints of their inner workings in
> the conversations is just beautiful. I would, just as an instance,
> consider it to completely destroy anything Stephen King has ever
> written. I'll grant that that isn't hard, but I think it highlights
> the fact that there isn't really any such beast as 'Literature' with a
> reverential capital L.
I understand what you're saying, and storywise, I think it is better than a
lot of written fiction. I just hesitate to call it an all time great work
of literature. But again, this is all opinion, so we can both be right.
> I get the impression that you're trying to make a distinction between
> media - between computer games and the written word. That just lands
> you in a different morass, and the definition of what is Literature
> doesn't change:
Yeah. I am making a distinction. I read books, play games, and watch
movies, all for different reasons. I judge them all by different standards.
I'm not sure if this is right or wrong, but it works for me. I'm just
looking for something different when I pick up a book, as opposed to when I
pick up a game. This is not a bad thing, at least from my perspective.
They both offer me different things, and I like both options.
> 'Literature' is, in my opinion, just another name for something
> written by some old guy, preferrably long dead, whom other old guys
> rather liked.
Not always the case, and probably a simplification, but literature means
different things to different people I suppose. If we want to talk about
literature as art, and why some lit holds up so much better, and is read by
people long after the author is dead. I think there are a whole bunch of
reasons, not because someone is dead, or because some professors happen to
like a particular author. I think there are much more fundamental reasons.
We can have the disscussion, but I think a lot of the reasons I would list
would be considered subjective, and wouldn't prove either point. I think it
would only serve to prove, that there is room enough, when talking about
art, literature and video games, for us to both be right.
> In my personal opinion PS:T is among the most rewarding works of
> fiction I've ever enjoyed, right up there with Macchiavelli,
> Pratchett, Tolkien, Hemingway or Joyce, far above Zola, Tolstoy,
> Strindberg and King.
I might disagree with this, and agree with some of it, but I can name other
authors I enjoyed much more the Torment. But again, I'm holding the
diferent forms of media to different standards, because I want different
things from each. For me, the story isn't the most important part of a
game. If I judged every game by the standards of my favorite literature, I
wouldn't be playing many games.
> My personal opinion, of course; others will no doubt disagree, as is
> their right.
Of course, as is mine. I think I'm gonna replay Torment, you have me
thinking here.
> >Gouge
>
Gouge
"kyle" <ky...@noemail.com> wrote in message
news:TpXY8.59516$uw.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
Gouge
Gouge
"Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message
news:YYWY8.24816$A43.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Gouge
Gouge
"JH" <nosp...@eurosport.com> wrote in message
news:3d345e08$0$16808$edfa...@dspool01.news.tele.dk...
Either he is not telling the truth, or he is a moron.
Gouge
Gouge
> On Mon, 15 Jul 2002 16:52:25 -0700, "Gouge" <deep...@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I hear GTA3 is actually quite good. I'm not sure about story, but I've
> >heard it compared to Morrowind in other areas.
>
> Storywise I didn't think much of GTA3 (by and large you're not killing
> people _for_ anything other than the fact that it's the expedient
> thing to do at the time), but it's not a game that's really about
> story - what's outstanding about it is the technology, the interactive
> environment. And those are truly superb, as far as I know nothing like
> it has been done before. I'd recommend at least renting it out just to
> take a look (assuming that's the sort of thing that appeals to you).
>
I'm not normally into too shooters, though I'll play demos, or I'll play it
if a friend has it, etc. But I've heard so much about GTA3 I do wanna try
it, just not sure if I wanna buy it. Renting is a good idea. But from what
you've said, it does kinda sound a little like Morrowind, in that, the story
isn't the main focus. It's the world, and for Morrowind the character
building. I might just give it a shot.
Gouge
Brandon Van Every
>
>
> your website on the other hand, is a true work of art... seriously, how
can
> you be a 'game developer' and not understand that different games have
> different goals and aims..
I understand that just fine! That doesn't change the fact that Morrowind is
(1) strong visually (2) weak storywise. The only argument here is I'm
divesting certain people of their illusions that Morrowind in any way
resembles quality writing. Or that it's "my fault" if there's no compelling
draw to the story after 86+ hours of gameplay. Writers have to do certain
things to make stories compelling, Morrowind doesn't do them. Morrowind is
actually a lot stronger at letting you wander around *aimlessly* than in
providing any kind of story experience at all. It's just that once you've
wandered around enough, then you've seen so much of the landscape that you
figure everything else is probably the same.
Ok, I now realize there's a play style that I haven't sufficiently explored:
high mobility. It was interesting to get the long term flying blessing. If
I fly everywhere all the time, take an aviation approach to the whole thing,
does the game become more interesting? For instance, some problems are
"Help I'm this schmuck in the wilderness. This witch gave me a wedgie and
took all my clothes. Will you help me find her?" Well, easier said than
done by ground search. Maybe detection spells would help, but I think
they'd only decrease the amount of searching necessary, not bingo the
target.
Again, exploring a "high mobility" play style has nothing to do with trying
to wring a good story out of Morrowind. It's exploring what the game is
actually strong at.
Brandon Van Every
>
>
> This really shows how little of the game you have played... there are
> multiple solutions to almost every quest, I can think of 3 or 4 to some
> without even thinking really.. such as solving the mystery of the husbands
> widow, kill the bitch and take her deed? steal it from under her nose? be
> noble and find out what happened to her husband and avenge him? the choice
> is yours, its called role playing, something that you apparently dont like
> to do... it seems like you WANT this game to be linear and mediocre.. its
> stupid.. seriously, find another game...
Alternate proposition: if I'm going to roleplay, I expect the game to do
more as far as providing imaginative materials. If I'm the source of most
of the creativity and engagement, what's the game doing for me?
--
Cheers, www.3DProgrammer.com
Brandon Van Every Seattle, WA
20% of the world is real.
80% is gobbledygook we make up inside our own heads.
> peace,
> kyle
>
>
>
Brandon Van Every
>
> True. But interactive fiction uses at least a somewhat related medium (the
> written word). I would still hesitate to call it "literature", and place
> any RPG, including PS:T, somewhere between fantasy comix and cartoons.
Mind
> you, nothing against fantasy comix and cartoons. No need for anyone to
take
> issue with me, just an opinion, and you know what they about those.
There is of course a whole serious comic book movement that tries to be
literature.
Brandon Van Every
>
> > I've proved to my satisfaction that all the quests suck.
>
> You are playing a game to prove the quests suck?... thats depressing heh,
> why not find a game you actually enjoy?
You have to actually play games in order to find them. You can't rely on
word of mouth because people's opinions vary. You have to play for a
certain amount of to prove that it sucks, to give it a fair chance.
Brandon Van Every
> news:TpXY8.59516$uw.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
>
> > everything, yet you were impressed by the shrine that made you
levitate..
> > you do realize its quite easy to do that on your own right?
So tell me, what are the coolest things you've done in the game? I can tell
you that from my standpoint, it sure as hell hasn't been following the
quests. They have all royally sucked. Boring drivel.
> > and you have
> > to give a levitaiton potion to the shrine for it to work anyways?
My impression from taking other potions is they don't last very long.
Brandon Van Every
>
>
> when someone releases a game that is hyped as having a great story or
makes
> claims to have one.. morrowind never promised anything like this, you seem
> to be holding it to much higher standards than any other game out there...
No, I am simply taking issue with people in this thread who claim it's *my
fault* that the Morrowind story is sub-par, boring, and doesn't suck me in
even after playing the game for 86+ hours. It's not my fault, it's a
weakness in the game. The game has other strengths, like the visuals. I'm
interested in what makes a game stronger, not whether a given game is
perfect. IMO Morrowind is woefully bad as far as delivering story, as are a
lot of other CRPG titles. We only get over this as an industry when we
recognize bad writing as the horseshit it actually is, instead of making
excuses like "well you didn't follow directions! You're *supposed* to want
to follow the main quest!" Why, exactly? Are you supposed to want to play
games that give every indication that they're boring?
> the fact that YOU make the story is what makes this game what it is
And so, if you're the kind of player who talks to yourself a lot, you'll
have fun. If you're the kind of player that goes to a movie in order to see
someone else's creative product and be entertained by it, you will hate
Morrowind's story. You might love the visuals, but of Morrowind's story you
will say "this is way too long, tedious, and haphazard to be of any
interest."
Brandon Van Every
"Gouge" <deep...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ah1u4v$goe$1...@news.efn.org...
> >
> Well, he put in 70 hours in a week. So 86 total now on a game he hates.
> Either he is not telling the truth, or he is a moron.
I never said I hated Morrowind, I said the quests *suck*. Morrowind has
other aspects that are good, like the visuals. Eventually you've had enough
of the good aspects and you move on. My point is, in 86+ hours of gameplay,
Morrowind's story couldn't get me interested, *even* when I went back goaded
by you guys to see if the Blade quests were worth anything. Frankly, they
suck just as badly as every other quest I've played in the game.
Game designers in CRPG need to learn the difference between a backstory and
an interactive story. Morrowind has a huge, meandering backstory. That's
all it's got. As an interactive story, something meant to draw the player
along and keep them interested in the story, it's shit.
Brandon Van Every
>
>
> I understand what you're saying, and storywise, I think it is better than
a
> lot of written fiction.
There's a lot of bad writing out there and that's another rant.
Brandon Van Every
"Bill Silvey" <bxsxixl...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:Cd0Z8.59553$XH.13...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
>
> "Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message
> news:YYWY8.24816$A43.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> >
> > "Rod" <wolf...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:myHY8.548159$cQ3.49774@sccrnsc01...
> > >
> > > But hey, if you liked Diablo 2, chances are you don't like this type
of
> > > games no matter what we say. To me it is the other way around, no
> matter
> > > what people said about Diablo 2, I just didn't like it
> >
> > I mostly did not like Diablo 2. When did I say I liked Diablo 2?
> >
> > You guys are wrong. The main plotline SUCKS. It is POORLY WRITTEN.
The
>
> Then go and fuck yourself until you're permanently bent into an "O" shape;
> you'll find it much more worthwhile.
>
> Fuck you, jack. "You guys are wrong". Yeah, thanks for the four fucking
> one one. Shall I run every goddamned opinion of mine by you and make sure
> you agree, sheila? You're a ferocious little girl when you're
opinionated.
Do you have a rational argument to stand on, or is potty mouth all you've
got? I can tell you *why* the storyline sucks. Can you tell me why it
doesn't? Not just "Well I like it!" but how it functions as a piece of
writing? Character, plot, pace, setup and payoff, audience buy-in?
Mike Noren
>No, I am simply taking issue with people in this thread who claim it's *my
>fault* that the Morrowind story is sub-par, boring, and doesn't suck me in
>even after playing the game for 86+ hours. It's not my fault, it's a
>weakness in the game. The game has other strengths, like the visuals. I'm
You're never going to convince people who liked the story that the
story sucked; just state your opinion and move on.
FWIW I personally agree, I too found the story fairly thin, and the
quests uninspiring. Part of the reason I think is because I prefer
storyline to pseudo-free-form, I like to know WHY I'm doing things,
but a very large part why the quests were not very gripping to me was
the way conversation is handled in-game. It just didn't flesh out the
characters in the game, as they all responded identically.
I liked Morrowind, and I'm a graphics junkie so I've taken quite a bit
of snapshots, but I'd have liked to see more variation in responses
and some character development in the more frequently talked to NPC's
(e.g. the spymaster and Fireeye). I never felt like I got to know any
of them.
What I was missing in the game was EMOTIONS.
Imagine if...
POSSIBLE SPOILERS
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.
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.
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.
.
.
.
.
.
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.
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.
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.
...there'd been a hinted-at love story between the player and Eydis
Fireeye - wouldn't that have made the choice between doing the evil
fighter missions OR killing Eydis and the guild boss and becoming
guild master oneself more interesting?
...after you'd got your mansion, it'd have been possible to give stuff
to the people there, and make them follow you if you wanted? They
should have agendas/"henchman quests" to make them more personal.
...the Spymaster had been assassinated and you had been left with the
task of taking over and exacting revenge? Wouldn't that have made more
sense than that he just disappears?
Dang Tran Vu
> you that from my standpoint, it sure as hell hasn't been following the
> quests. They have all royally sucked. Boring drivel.
Why do you have this strong urge to convince other people that MW's
story is not good? Do you go around telling people you don't know
repeatedly that some book you read is not good too? Games, books,
music and movies are a matter of taste. What makes other people
"wrong", as you put it, if the story in MW satisfies them? What makes
your opinion the end all and be all judge on the matter of taste?
maia
wrote:
>In article <dlqY8.13492$Kx3....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote:
>>
>>Yeah. Well, I say Bethesda can make nice scenery and epic scale, but hasn't
>>a clue about writing stories. The main game isn't the only writing that's
>>bad. Most of those book stories *suck*. Some of 'em are good, like someone
>>really sat down and tried to write an engaging vignette acording to all the
>>rules of craft that storywriters typically employ. But so much of it is
>>half-baked fantasy drivel with no setup, no lead as to why you should pay
>>attention or care. They're very choppy stories, which is a pretty bad thing
>>considering how short most of them are.
I disagree completely. The books in MW are the best I have ever
encountered in CRPG and a high point of the game. Some of them are
pretty good and entertaining stories, some are clever imitations of
mythological texts (i.e. most of the books about the Tribunal), some
are genuinly creepy.
Now, if only dialogues were of the same quality...
>I think they are meant to be, for the most part, historical fragments.
>Part of the scenery, rather than stories per se.
Well, they do very well at creating the atmosphere, IMHO.
>The quests are far too FedEx though, no improvement over Daggerfall.
>Maybe someone will come up with some more exciting mods.
The problem is that there are quite a few quests in MW that are
inherently quite interesting and clever, but completely dumbed down
and spoiled by too detailed instructions. As if someone was afraid to
strain the players brains even a little...
For instance, to take one of the very early quests - if the guy who
sets you to spy on Fargoth had told you to "find an unobtrusive spot
to watch Fargoth from afar" and you'd have had to figure out about
going to Lighthouse yourself - wouldn't it have been _much_ more
satisfying than just following the instructions to the letter? And
Bethesda commits that sin repeatedly in MW. I do sincerely hope that
the quests weren't dumbed down due to the XBOX deal...
R. Cohen
> > something of a story.
>
> there are almost no talented writers in it. Game developers don't value
> writing, they value scenery and physics.
Well it's certainly not an original story. Yet another evil force
surfacing in the world that you, oh adventurer, must defeat. I don't
think anyone at Bethesda claimed this game would be a epic story, what
they were shooting for was an epic game system in an epic game world
and I think they did a very good job at it. The fact that you could
spend 70+ hours at it without having to deal with the main story line
IS something that they wanted to allow. The stories? Well the main
quest has it's moments. If you think of the story as your story (as
in what you did to get to the end, it's actually fairly impressive).
It may be a question of creating interesting situations as opposed to
"writing" a good story. And there were a LOT of minor stories, some
of them better then others. Between the various guilds, houses, minor
quests, this game was just packed with stories...
Greg Campbell
> > "kyle" <ky...@noemail.com> wrote in message
> > news:TpXY8.59516$uw.3...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> >
> > > I also find it funny that you act as if you had done
> > > everything, yet you were impressed by the shrine that made you
> levitate..
> > > you do realize its quite easy to do that on your own right?
>
> So tell me, what are the coolest things you've done in the game? I can tell
> you that from my standpoint, it sure as hell hasn't been following the
> quests. They have all royally sucked. Boring drivel.
Seriously, dude, just because you disliked a particular story doesn't
mean that everyone who enjoys it is "wrong". I thought the entire
Wheel of Time series was ridiculously, laughably bad (I kept reading
in the hopes that it would get good at some point, since it came
highly recommended from a few friends), but that doesn't mean that all
Robert Jordan fans are imbeciles. Tastes differ. Get over it. There
are plenty of people who hated Planescape and Deus Ex, even though I
think both are excellent.
Anyway,
Moments I most enjoyed in Morrowind, in no particular order :
(SPOILERS FOLLOW, OF COURSE)
Meeting Vivec, and realizing the magnitude of the changes I was going
to make to Dunmer society.
Discovering the true history of the Tribunal, and reading multiple
historical accounts of the betrayal of Nerevar.
The House Redoran "rescue mission".
Several early Imperial Legion quests, including the land deed and
negotiating with the wizard for the imprisoned tax collector.
Meeting the "cyborg" in the dungeon of Tel Fyr, and learning more
about the Dwemer.
My first sandstorm.
Seeing the Ghostfence for the first time.
The two brothers brawling outside the Helm of Tohan quest location.
Talking to my four coworkers who also have the game, and realizing
that all five of us had had almost entirely different experiences
(except for the main quest, and even that differed based on our
playstyles).
Sorry you don't like it, but your dislike is not some sort of
indictment of those of us who do.
Greg Campbell
> "Gouge" <deep...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:ah1u4v$goe$1...@news.efn.org...
> > >
> > Well, he put in 70 hours in a week. So 86 total now on a game he hates.
> > Either he is not telling the truth, or he is a moron.
>
> I never said I hated Morrowind, I said the quests *suck*. Morrowind has
> other aspects that are good, like the visuals. Eventually you've had enough
> of the good aspects and you move on. My point is, in 86+ hours of gameplay,
> Morrowind's story couldn't get me interested, *even* when I went back goaded
> by you guys to see if the Blade quests were worth anything. Frankly, they
> suck just as badly as every other quest I've played in the game.
Just out of curiosity, how far did you get in the Blade quests?
chainbreaker
> mean that everyone who enjoys it is "wrong". I thought the entire
> Wheel of Time series was ridiculously, laughably bad (I kept reading
> in the hopes that it would get good at some point, since it came
> highly recommended from a few friends), but that doesn't mean that all
> Robert Jordan fans are imbeciles.
Arrgghh--WoT--actually, I think the first 2 or 3 books are fairly
decent--the rest of the lot pretty much crap.
chainbreaker
FB
> Game designers in CRPG need to learn the difference between a backstory and
> an interactive story. Morrowind has a huge, meandering backstory. That's
> all it's got. As an interactive story, something meant to draw the player
> along and keep them interested in the story, it's shit.
I thought the background and freedom was Morrowind's point (I never
tried the game). Surely, there's enough room to have both games where
there's a storyline, and the player's actions just have an effect on
the pacing, and games where the point is to discover the world, with
little plot hooks here and there but not main story.
While I too think that storytelling is important I'm not sure it
should be the point of computer games, where the story will always be
more limited than, say, a book.
And finally, I'm not sure than you can have both story and background,
in the sense that in order to have a truly reactive background you
would have to have the possibility of derailing the story.
R. Cohen
> "Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message news:<A06Z8.18454$Kx3....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> My first sandstorm.
Yes indeed. Usually while being totally lost.
> Talking to my four coworkers who also have the game, and realizing
> that all five of us had had almost entirely different experiences
> (except for the main quest, and even that differed based on our
> playstyles).
>
That to me is the biggest difference between an interactive game and a
story. Each of these experiences are definitely different for each
person who plays it.
I've had quite different experience just being a mage vs a
archer/warrior. Some of the dungeons and shrines can be quite
involved and they've been totally different "adventures" depending on
the character type I played.
Carlos Gomez
wrote:
>mean that everyone who enjoys it is "wrong". I thought the entire
>Wheel of Time series was ridiculously, laughably bad (I kept reading
I quite reading it when I realized for one of the books that I'd read
one third of the book and the plot hadn't advanced at all. Instead,
all the time was with the ladies tugging their skirts and hair as they
dashed from place to place.
>Talking to my four coworkers who also have the game, and realizing
>that all five of us had had almost entirely different experiences
>(except for the main quest, and even that differed based on our
>playstyles).
This is what Bethesda was trying to accomplisg, and in my opinion,
they succeeded. One can play the game in many ways, and it isn't
forced along a rail.
Russell Wallace
wrote:
>On 17 Jul 2002 18:39:09 -0700, gtc...@yahoo.com (Greg Campbell)
>wrote:
>
>>mean that everyone who enjoys it is "wrong". I thought the entire
>>Wheel of Time series was ridiculously, laughably bad (I kept reading
>
>I quite reading it when I realized for one of the books that I'd read
>one third of the book and the plot hadn't advanced at all. Instead,
>all the time was with the ladies tugging their skirts and hair as they
>dashed from place to place.
I still think the first four books of the series were mostly of superb
quality. After that it started to decline sharply, and indeed as you
say one of the symptoms of this is the characters starting to spend
99% of their time tugging their skirts and sniping at each other, and
only 1% on actually defeating the enemy.
--
"Mercy to the guilty is treachery to the innocent."
Remove killer rodent from address to reply.
http://www.esatclear.ie/~rwallace
Brandon Van Every
"FB" <ferd...@my-dejanews.com> wrote in message
news:3d76ba0.02071...@posting.google.com...
> "Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message
news:<d86Z8.18464$Kx3....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>
> > Game designers in CRPG need to learn the difference between a backstory
and
> > an interactive story. Morrowind has a huge, meandering backstory.
That's
> > all it's got. As an interactive story, something meant to draw the
player
> > along and keep them interested in the story, it's shit.
>
> I thought the background and freedom was Morrowind's point (I never
> tried the game).
Well, whether was "the point" or not, I enjoy Morrowind when I don't expect
anything from it in terms of story, and instead look it as a big meandering
wander around eye candy video game. You take the pleasures of levelling up,
when it stops being pleasurable you quit. You enjoy flying, or shooting
your bow, or casting your spell, or stealing things out of chests, or
whatever. When you've done those things to death then the content is used
up, time to find another game. I've played it some more and now I've gotten
my 100 hours out of it. I've uninstalled it, especially because the battle
mechanics started feeling like Diablo II. What do I have to do to fight
"hard" monsters? Suck down a lot of potions to give me a bunch of
immunities. My fighting skill equals the number of potions I can carry
around and suck down. It's not twitchy skill, and there's not too much
tactical skill when enemies close on you so quickly and terrain is so
limited.
Anyways, what I'm saying is I got a lot out of Morrowind, 100 hours, as a
mindless game. Where Morrowind disappointed and irritated me was when I
tried to follow quests. The quests suck, they are not a value add to the
product. The dialogue is bad, the characters are poor. They could have
gotten all that backstory atmospheric stuff done by leaving it in the books.
I'm never going to "finish" Morrowind, I'm never going to be interested in
"the point" of the story because the story is told in a lousy, boring,
meandering, tedious way. I got my 100 hours of mindless fun out of the
game, I got the content that was worthwhile, now it's uninstalled. If "the
point" was to tell a story, Bethesda failed. Miserably. If it wasn't, if
it was just to have mindless fun, then they mostly succeded, but the stupid
quests distracted me from the true agenda of open-ended mindless fun. If
open-ended mindless fun were my goal as a game designer, I would have
dropped the quests.
> Surely, there's enough room to have both games where
> there's a storyline, and the player's actions just have an effect on
> the pacing, and games where the point is to discover the world, with
> little plot hooks here and there but not main story.
Morrowind would have been *much* better without a main story. And without
guilds. Guilds are pointless. They don't give you anything particularly
good, all they do you is force you through quests in order to advance. When
you're just running around in the world, you don't have to do any quests.
You just decide if the errand sounds interesting or not. I've done plenty
of errands that I thought sounded amusing, and some didn't turn out to be,
but I certainly never felt any compulsion to finish the ones I didn't like.
I just left the naked Celt standing in town, because it's too damn tedious
to chase down where the witch is. I'd say "suuuuure I'll help you out" all
the time, because if I say "no" I don't have the option to ever try that
content, whereas if I say "yes" I can always in practice be saying "no" by
blowing it off. I don't owe these guys a decision, and most of the quests
aren't time-based.
> While I too think that storytelling is important I'm not sure it
> should be the point of computer games, where the story will always be
> more limited than, say, a book.
The story does *not* have to be more limited than a book. Game stories are
not inherently bad, and book stories are not inherently good. However, I'd
rather have *no* story than a bad, boringly told story that forces me to
jump through tedious hoops. That's how I feel about Morrowind's main story
and guild quests.
> And finally, I'm not sure than you can have both story and background,
> in the sense that in order to have a truly reactive background you
> would have to have the possibility of derailing the story.
It really depends on your production budget. How long can you afford to be
writing all this content that people may not see? Is it expensive or cheap
to produce content, i.e. full-blown 3D models vs. text paragraphs? Is your
business model release-once-and-it's-over or can you keep releasing content
like a TV serial over time?
Brandon Van Every
I'm not interested in writers that just toss the audience a bone ever now
and again. As stated in another post, I would prefer a Morrowind with *no*
story. No guild quests. No hoops to jump through, no way of "finishing"
the game. Just content to explore. If you're going to make me jump through
hoops to get a story, it had better be a *good* story to justify it.
Brandon Van Every
"Greg Campbell" <gtc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a3e7fc22.02071...@posting.google.com...
> "Brandon Van Every" <vane...@3DProgrammer.com> wrote in message
news:<A06Z8.18454$Kx3....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
> >
tell
> > you that from my standpoint, it sure as hell hasn't been following the
> > quests. They have all royally sucked. Boring drivel.
>
> Seriously, dude, just because you disliked a particular story doesn't
> mean that everyone who enjoys it is "wrong".
They aren't wrong to enjoy it, to each their own. They *are* wrong to
assert that it's a well-crafted story, or that it's my fault that I didn't
go do X Y Z to go get the story. If you write a story, you mostly provide
for the audience, not the other way around. You have to sell them and keep
them interested. If you can't, you're a bad writer.
> I thought the entire
> Wheel of Time series was ridiculously, laughably bad (I kept reading
> in the hopes that it would get good at some point, since it came
> highly recommended from a few friends), but that doesn't mean that all
> Robert Jordan fans are imbeciles.
They probably are imbeciles about what it takes to write a well-crafted
story. You can be a rocket scientist and a complete imbecile at literature
at the same time.
> Meeting Vivec, and realizing the magnitude of the changes I was going
> to make to Dunmer society.
I met Vivec. I wasn't invited, he told me so. I'd simply unlocked the door
to his temple. Got to watch him floating up and down doing yoga. Thought
about killing him, thought that I'd get my ass kicked in 0.5 seconds, so I
didn't. I met Vivec after 100 hours of gameplay using various characters.
I feel very comfortable saying that the pacing of this Vivec story sucks
rocks. Can you imagine the kinds of epics you could get done in film or TV
with 100 hours? That's 2 years worth of episodes!
> Discovering the true history of the Tribunal, and reading multiple
> historical accounts of the betrayal of Nerevar.
Never ran into this. Again, I'm not going to wait 100+ hours to hear the
fucking story.
> The House Redoran "rescue mission".
> Several early Imperial Legion quests, including the land deed and
> negotiating with the wizard for the imprisoned tax collector.
Jesus how much time have you played Morrowind? How many months have you
owned it?
> My first sandstorm.
That wasn't hard. I did see 85% of the game's eye candy, that's a big
reason why I've now uninstalled it. Morrowind is strong at delivering eye
candy. But after awhile, a dungeon corridor is a dungeon corridor, doesn't
matter what game.
> Seeing the Ghostfence for the first time.
Almost didn't get to that. If it hadn't been for people here ribbing me
about giving the Blades quests another shake, I wouldn't have. I was 70+
hours into the game without seeing the Ghostfence. Saw it around hour 80.
Found out that Ghostgate has the best theftable loot.
> Sorry you don't like it, but your dislike is not some sort of
> indictment of those of us who do.
I want to know how many hours you've been playing this thing. If you've
played only 100 hours and gotten to all of this stuff, something is
*seriously* different about how we play games, and I want to know what it
is. If you've played 200+ hours I don't care. Too much of the game is way
boring for me to put more than 100 hours into it.