Quercetin - Serious Negative finding
Anonymous
I regret very much to inform you all that I have confirmed, in my own
mind at least, that quercetin treatment CAN be associated with swelling
and pain in joints, particularly the small joints of fingers and toes.
We have seen quite a few posts claiming this in the past from other
patients. I can now conform it.
I have been on and off quercetin many times over the last year or so,
and ON EVERY OCCASION the beginning of quercetin treatment has been
accompanied by pain and discomfort in my pinkie finger, middle joint.
More recently pain has also appeared in my toes after starting on Q. The
pain disappears on stopping treatment.
I tended to ignore this, since although the pinkie joint was exquisitely
tender (any untoward knock of the joint against anything would bring a
stab of pain and bending the finger was painful), but now the joint is
actually swollen and red, and I suspect that irreversible damage may be
occurring.
I have decided to use quercetin only if absolutely necessary from now
on, only for flares.
I'm not sure if quercetin is exacerbating some pre-existing rheumatoid
arthritis-like condition or actually creating the joint problems itself,
but since I has no pain at all in these joints before starting quercetin
I have to conclude that the flavonoid has something to do with the
etiology.
I'm sorry to have to report this negative finding, but I believe in
completely honesty about our condition and its treatments. quercetin has
bee the best treatment by far, in my book, for CPPS. Perhaps I'll have
to look at natural quercetin again (broccoli), although I found it
nauseating first time round.
_____________________________________________________
Questions about CPPS/CP/Prostatitis?
Visit http://zwitch.to/cpps
Discussion Forum at http://www.delphi.com/prostatitis
Write to CP...@sofcom.com
No User
mind at least, that quercetin treatment CAN be associated with swelling
and pain in joints, particularly the small joints of fingers and toes.
We have seen quite a few posts claiming this in the past from other
I have been on and off quercetin many times over the last year or so,
and ON EVERY OCCASION the beginning of quercetin treatment has been
accompanied by pain and discomfort in my pinkie finger, middle joint.
More recently pain has also appeared in my toes after starting on Q. The
pain disappears on stopping treatment.
I tended to ignore this, although the pinkie joint was exquisitely
tender (any untoward knock of the joint against anything would bring a
stab of pain and bending the finger was painful), but now the joint is
actually swollen and red, and I suspect that irreversible damage may be
occurring.
I have decided to use quercetin only if absolutely necessary from now
on, only for flares.
I'm not sure if quercetin is exacerbating some pre-existing rheumatoid
arthritis-like condition or actually creating the joint problems itself,
but since I had no pain at all in these joints before starting
quercetin, I have to conclude that the flavonoid has something to do
with the etiology.
I'm sorry to have to report this negative finding, but I believe in
completely honesty about our condition and its treatments. Quercetin has
been the best treatment by far, in my book, for CPPS. Perhaps I'll have
davi...@my-deja.com
Anonymous <nob...@noisebox.dhs.org> wrote:
>
> I regret very much to inform you all that I have confirmed, in my own
> mind at least, that quercetin treatment CAN be associated with
swelling
> and pain in joints, particularly the small joints of fingers and toes.
> We have seen quite a few posts claiming this in the past from other
>
> I have been on and off quercetin many times over the last year or so,
> and ON EVERY OCCASION the beginning of quercetin treatment has been
> accompanied by pain and discomfort in my pinkie finger, middle joint.
> More recently pain has also appeared in my toes after starting on Q.
The
> pain disappears on stopping treatment.
>
exquisitely
> tender (any untoward knock of the joint against anything would bring a
> stab of pain and bending the finger was painful), but now the joint is
> actually swollen and red, and I suspect that irreversible damage may
be
> occurring.
>
> I have decided to use quercetin only if absolutely necessary from now
> on, only for flares.
>
> I'm not sure if quercetin is exacerbating some pre-existing rheumatoid
> arthritis-like condition or actually creating the joint problems
itself,
quercetin
> I have to conclude that the flavonoid has something to do with the
> etiology.
>
> I'm sorry to have to report this negative finding, but I believe in
has
> bee the best treatment by far, in my book, for CPPS. Perhaps I'll have
> to look at natural quercetin again (broccoli), although I found it
> nauseating first time round.
>
> _____________________________________________________
> Questions about CPPS/CP/Prostatitis?
> Visit http://zwitch.to/cpps
> Discussion Forum at http://www.delphi.com/prostatitis
> Write to CP...@sofcom.com
>
I've been taking Quercetin for about 2 or 3 months now and haven't
noticed any such effects. However, if I recall correctly, I'm taking
about half the dosage that you were. I'm taking 400 mg of Quercetin
along with 500 mg of Vitamin C at breakfast, lunch and dinner for a
total of 1200 mg/day of Quercetin. I notice a difference when I miss a
pill. On the other hand, I don't notice any difference when I take
more than 1200 mg/day.
- David
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Anonymous
> I've been taking Quercetin for about 2 or 3
> months now and haven't noticed any such
> effects. However, if I recall correctly, I'm
> taking about half the dosage that you were.
> I'm taking 400 mg of Quercetin along with
> 500 mg of Vitamin C at breakfast, lunch and
> dinner for a total of 1200 mg/day of
> Quercetin. I notice a difference when I miss
> a pill. On the other hand, I don't notice any
> difference when I take more than 1200
> mg/day.
>
> - David
1) I cannot say what percentage of pts
have joint symptoms. It may be a very
low percentage, but it's definitely
there.
2) The effects may be dose dependent. Again,
I can't tell.
Frank A Griffin
have wondered if there is any connection.
On Sat, 3 Jun 2000 11:01:28 -0500 No User <no....@ANON.XG.NU> writes:
> I regret very much to inform you all that I have confirmed, in my own
> mind at least, that quercetin treatment CAN be associated with
> swelling
> and pain in joints, particularly the small joints of fingers and
> toes.
> We have seen quite a few posts claiming this in the past from other
> patients. I can now confirm it.
>
> I have been on and off quercetin many times over the last year or
> so,
> and ON EVERY OCCASION the beginning of quercetin treatment has been
> accompanied by pain and discomfort in my pinkie finger, middle
> joint.
> More recently pain has also appeared in my toes after starting on Q.
> The
> pain disappears on stopping treatment.
>
> I tended to ignore this, although the pinkie joint was exquisitely
> tender (any untoward knock of the joint against anything would bring
> a
> stab of pain and bending the finger was painful), but now the joint
> is
> actually swollen and red, and I suspect that irreversible damage may
> be
> occurring.
>
> I have decided to use quercetin only if absolutely necessary from
> now
> on, only for flares.
>
> I'm not sure if quercetin is exacerbating some pre-existing
> rheumatoid
> arthritis-like condition or actually creating the joint problems
> itself,
> but since I had no pain at all in these joints before starting
> quercetin, I have to conclude that the flavonoid has something to do
> with the etiology.
>
> I'm sorry to have to report this negative finding, but I believe in
> completely honesty about our condition and its treatments. Quercetin
> has
> been the best treatment by far, in my book, for CPPS. Perhaps I'll
> have
> to look at natural quercetin again (broccoli), although I found it
> nauseating first time round.
>
>
>
Dreamer4825
>I regret very much to inform you all that I have confirmed, in my own
>mind at least, that quercetin treatment CAN be associated with swelling
>and pain in joints, particularly the small joints of fingers and toes.
>We have seen quite a few posts claiming this in the past from other
>patients. I can now confirm it.
>
>I have been on and off quercetin many times over the last year or so,
>and ON EVERY OCCASION the beginning of quercetin treatment has been
>accompanied by pain and discomfort in my pinkie finger, middle joint.
>More recently pain has also appeared in my toes after starting on Q. The
>pain disappears on stopping treatment.
I experimented with quercetin in different forms, and although I never felt
pain in the joints while taking Q in pill form, I did notice an aching of my
left testicle. When I stopped taking Q, the pain stopped. Started Q again, the
pain started. Finally, went off Q permanently, and I haven't felt this pain
since then. Maybe it was just a coincidence though? After all, since the left
side of my prostate was boggy, maybe the pain in the left testicle was referred
pain caused by congestion/swelling of the prostate.
>I tended to ignore this, although the pinkie joint was exquisitely
>tender (any untoward knock of the joint against anything would bring a
>stab of pain and bending the finger was painful), but now the joint is
>actually swollen and red, and I suspect that irreversible damage may be
>occurring.
Could it really have caused irreversible damage to the joints though? I doubt
that.
>I have decided to use quercetin only if absolutely necessary from now
>on, only for flares.
I'm sorry to here this. Q seemed to have helped you so much.
>I'm not sure if quercetin is exacerbating some pre-existing rheumatoid
>arthritis-like condition or actually creating the joint problems itself,
>but since I had no pain at all in these joints before starting
>quercetin, I have to conclude that the flavonoid has something to do
>with the etiology.
>
>I'm sorry to have to report this negative finding, but I believe in
>completely honesty about our condition and its treatments. Quercetin has
>been the best treatment by far, in my book, for CPPS. Perhaps I'll have
>to look at natural quercetin again (broccoli), although I found it
>nauseating first time round.
When I tried the BT, I developed a taste for the hot broth. I'd drink it in the
morning as if it were coffee. But I must admit, all that broccoli juice tends
to be a bit much.
Bangkok Dave
No User <no....@anon.xg.nu> wrote:
> I regret very much to inform you all that I have confirmed, in my own
> mind at least, that quercetin treatment CAN be associated with
> swelling
> and pain in joints, particularly the small joints of fingers and toes.
> We have seen quite a few posts claiming this in the past from other
> patients. I can now confirm it.
Thank you for the post. Since you're one of Q's staunchest supporters,
it must've been an unhappy realization.
> I have decided to use quercetin only if absolutely necessary from now
> on, only for flares.
So how does this affect the rest of your protocol? Are you planning to
revise it?
I've been taking Q for about 2 months now and have noticed no side
effects, but I've been a very irregular user, often forgetting to take
a dinner dose, and skipping days.
Dave
Anonymous
> No User <no....@anon.xg.nu> wrote:
>
> > I regret very much to inform you all that I
> > have confirmed, in my own mind at least,
> > that quercetin treatment CAN be associated
> > with swelling and pain in joints,
> > particularly the small joints of fingers and
> > toes. We have seen quite a few posts
> > claiming this in the past from other
> > patients. I can now confirm it.
>
> Thank you for the post. Since you're one of
> Q's staunchest supporters, it must've been
> an unhappy realization.
Yes, it was rather :-( Isn't life a bitch, eh? (And then you die.)
>
> > I have decided to use quercetin only if
> > absolutely necessary from now on, only for
> > flares.
>
> So how does this affect the rest of your
> protocol? Are you planning to revise it?
I have added my warning to the page on my protocol at
http://zwitch.to/cpps
I will take everything else I mention, but not the quercetin. I must
emphasise that I am probably in a tiny minority of patients who react
this way. I'd really like to know what's happening on a biochemical
level, though. I stopped the q 2 days ago, and already my joint
(pinkie) is MUCH better, no pain.
I suspect I may have to look at things like methotrexate eventually
unless some other chemical like q is discovered or unless this problem
with q is resolved. I can't take Vioxx and Celebrex at all (gastric
pain).
> I've been taking Q for about 2 months now
> and have noticed no side effects, but I've
> been a very irregular user, often forgetting to
> take a dinner dose, and skipping days.
I may never affect you badly.
jdimi...@my-deja.com
In article <80bb496804f12cda...@remailer.privacy.at>,
Anonymous <nob...@remailer.privacy.at> wrote:
> I suspect I may have to look at things like methotrexate eventually
> unless some other chemical like q is discovered or unless this problem
> with q is resolved. I can't take Vioxx and Celebrex at all (gastric
> pain).
Methotrexate is usually best preceded by a mild corticosteroid
introduction. Should you decide to try Neupogen (G-CSF) or GM-CSf I will
send you some free. You might try them locally or at a very low systemic
dose.
>
> > I've been taking Q for about 2 months now
> > and have noticed no side effects, but I've
> > been a very irregular user, often forgetting to
> > take a dinner dose, and skipping days.
>
> I may never affect you badly.
>
> _____________________________________________________
> Questions about CPPS/CP/Prostatitis?
> Visit http://zwitch.to/cpps
> Discussion Forum at http://www.delphi.com/prostatitis
> Write to CP...@sofcom.com
>
>
--
Best regards,
Jordan Dimitrakov, MD
John Garst
> I regret very much to inform you all that I have confirmed, in my own
> mind at least, that quercetin treatment CAN be associated with swelling
> and pain in joints, particularly the small joints of fingers and toes.
Do the effects go away after discontinuing Q?
I ask because I took Q for several months a while back. I could detect no
influence on my prostatitis symptoms. However, since then I have been
bothered by a sore, swollen joint in my right pinkie (the joint nearest
the tip of the finger).
John Garst ga...@chem.uga.edu
Anonymous
> <nob...@noisebox.dhs.org> wrote:
>
> > I regret very much to inform you all that I have confirmed, in my own
> > mind at least, that quercetin treatment CAN be associated with swelling
> > and pain in joints, particularly the small joints of fingers and toes.
>
> Do the effects go away after discontinuing Q?
I don't really know yet. Since stopping q. the finger is much better,
but flexing it still produces pain. I'll only be able to say in a few
months. What a bummer.
> I ask because I took Q for several months a while back. I could detect no
> influence on my prostatitis symptoms. However, since then I have been
> bothered by a sore, swollen joint in my right pinkie (the joint nearest
> the tip of the finger).
>
> John Garst ga...@chem.uga.edu
John, why don't you give methotrexate a go, as suggested by your
doctors, just in the name of science? You of all people know the value
of an experiment. ;-) OR, why not try this drug:
Hautarzt 2000 Feb;51(2):63-9
Mycophenolate mofetil: a new immunosuppressive drug in dermatology and
its possible uses.
Geilen CC, Orfanos-Boeckel H, Offermann G, Orfanos CE
Klinik und Poliklinik fur Dermatologie, Universitatsklinikum Benjamin
Franklin, Freie Universitat Berlin.
Mycophenolate mofetil represents a new immunosuppressive drug. Several
case reports have shown that mycophenolate mofetil has a good
therapeutic effect in patients with psoriasis and autoimmune dermatoses.
Mycophenolate mofetil is a morpholine ester of mycophenolic acid which
was shown in the 1970s to be effective in patients with severe
psoriasis. Mycophenolate mofetil has an increased bioavailability as
compared to mycophenolic acid and thereby an improved therapeutic
window. Currently, mycophenolate mofetil is indicated for the prevention
of organ rejection in transplant patients. The mode of action and the
pharmacology of mycophenolate mofetil are reviewed and the current
clinical experience with this immunosuppressive drug for dermatological
disorders is summarized.
Publication Types: Review Review, tutorial
PMID: 10743574, UI: 20207977
Daniel Shoskes MD
<9a395fb44ca7102e...@noisebox.dhs.org>,
Anonymous <nob...@noisebox.dhs.org> wrote:
>
> I regret very much to inform you all that I have confirmed, in my
own
> mind at least, that quercetin treatment CAN be associated with
swelling
> and pain in joints, particularly the small joints of fingers and
toes.
Having never seen this in a patient of my own or in any of our
clinical trials it is hard to know exactly what this means. Two
possible options:
1) The really horrible state of quality control of herbal products. I
am comfortable with Prosta-Q because I have seen the quality
control data myself.
See the recent article:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/20
00/06/02/MN75760.DTL
2) At very high doses, antioxidants such as bioflavonoids can
actually become pro-oxidants. Combining quercetin with multiple
other anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory products may have a net
pro-inflammatory effect in some people. Given the propensity for
distal joint pain, it may also be related to uric acid metabolism.
Free Radic Biol Med 1999 Dec;27(11-12):1313-23 Related
Articles, Books, LinkOut
Anti- and pro-oxidative effects of flavonoids on metal-induced lipid
hydroperoxide-dependent lipid peroxidation in cultured
hepatocytes loaded with alpha-linolenic acid.
Sugihara N, Arakawa T, Ohnishi M, Furuno K
Faculty of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical Sciences, Fukuyama
University, Hiroshima, Japan.
Lipid hydroperoxide (LOOH)-dependent lipid peroxidation was
induced in alpha-linolenic acid (LNA)-loaded hepatocytes by
adding Fe, Cu, V, or Cd ions at concentrations from 20 to 500
microM. The effects of structurally related flavonoids at
concentrations from 10 to 500 microM on the lipid peroxidation
were examined. The results with regard to each flavonoid
subclass are as follows: (i) Flavonols such as myricetin, quercetin,
fisetin, and kaempferol, but not morin, showed dose-dependent
antioxidative activity against metal-induced lipid peroxidation at all
metal concentrations. Myricetin, quercetin, and fisetin were the
most effective antioxidants, although their efficacies depended on
the metal ion. Kaempferol and morin had antioxidative activity
equal to the other flavonols in the presence of Cu ions, but were
much less effective for the other three metal ions. (ii) Flavones,
luteolin, apigenin, and chrysin were antioxidative at low Fe
concentrations, but were pro-oxidative at high Fe concentrations.
Luteolin exhibited antioxidative activity similar to that of
catechol-containing flavonols in the presence of the other three
metal ions. Apigenin and chrysin also acted as pro-oxidants with V
or with all metal ions, respectively. (iii) Taxifolin, a flavanone, also
showed both anti- and prooxidative activity, depending on Fe
concentrations, but with other metal showed only antioxidative
activity ions. (iv) Epigallocatechin, a flavanol, was antioxidative with
all metal ions, and its activity was similar to that of
catechol-containing flavonols. The various effects of flavonoids on
metal-induced lipid peroxidation in LNA-loaded hepatocytes is
discussed with regard to the change in redox potential of
flavonoid-metal complexes.
Daniel Shoskes MD
Cleveland Clinic Florida (http://www.ccf.org/florida)
http://www.dshoskes.com
Note: Please DO NOT use this email. It is never checked.
No User
> Anonymous wrote:
>
> > I regret very much to inform you all that I
> > have confirmed, in my own mind at least,
> > that quercetin treatment CAN be
> > associated with swelling and pain in joints,
> > particularly the small joints of fingers and
> > toes.
>
> Having never seen this in a patient of my
> own or in any of our clinical trials it is hard
> to know exactly what this means. Two
> possible options:
>
> 1) The really horrible state of quality
> control of herbal products. I am
> comfortable with Prosta-Q because I have
> seen the quality control data myself.
I admit I have not tried Prosta-Q. I take the MRM product, the purity
of
which I trusted. If you no longer feel their product is not pure please
let us know.
> See the recent article:
> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?
> file=/chronicle/archive/2000/06/02/MN75760.DTL
I read it. I never thought those worries applied to MRM products...
> 2) At very high doses, antioxidants such
> as bioflavonoids can actually become pro-
> oxidants. Combining quercetin with multiple
> other anti-oxidant and anti-inflammatory
> products may have a net pro-inflammatory
> effect in some people.
That's possible, although I've had the effect even when taking q.
simply
with a few vits and minerals (no anti-inflammatory products like
omega-3
oils, no other meds). I'm not sure of my Fe, Cd, Cu and V status.
I'm certainly willing to try q. again, when symptoms have settled, at
lower doses.
> Given the propensity
> for distal joint pain, it may also be related to
> uric acid metabolism.
If q. involves itself in uric acid metabolism, yes.
> Free Radic Biol Med 1999 Dec;27(11-12):1313-23
>
> Anti- and pro-oxidative effects of
> flavonoids on metal-induced lipid
> hydroperoxide-dependent lipid
> peroxidation in cultured hepatocytes
> loaded with alpha-linolenic acid.
>
> Sugihara N, Arakawa T, Ohnishi M, Furuno K
>
> Faculty of Pharmacy and Pharmaceutical
> Sciences, Fukuyama University, Hiroshima,
> Japan.
>
> Lipid hydroperoxide (LOOH)- dependent
> lipid peroxidation was induced in alpha-
> linolenic acid (LNA)-loaded hepatocytes by
> adding Fe, Cu, V, or Cd ions at
> concentrations from 20 to 500 microM. The
> effects of structurally related flavonoids at
> concentrations from 10 to 500 microM on
> the lipid peroxidation were examined. The
> results with regard to each flavonoid
> subclass are as follows: (i) Flavonols such
> as myricetin, quercetin, fisetin, and
> kaempferol, but not morin, showed dose-
> dependent antioxidative activity against
> peroxidation in LNA- loaded hepatocytes is
> discussed with regard to the change in
> redox potential of flavonoid-metal
> complexes.
>
> Daniel Shoskes MD
I'd be less inclined to tie q. and joint pain together if it wasn't for
the other reports which appeared on this newsgroup (can't reference
them
now while the archives are unavailable at Deja). When I first saw those
posts it worried me, since they were voicing my own silent concerns.
But
now I have definitely linked small joint pain to quercetin ingestion
after multiple episodes of pain onset with the start of quercetin
intake.
My theory is this: somehow quercetin's complex actions on the immune
system, while helping our inflamed prostates, disables the immune
system's protective actions at susceptible joints in some patients. A
quick scan of the literature shows that q. has numerous effects in the
body. I guess the actual reason could take some time to flesh out.
Let's
face it, the population taking high daily doses of quercetin is very
small.
So far almost all the literature about flavonoids has been unreservedly
positive. However, it looks like there are some dark aspects to these
substances too, when taken in doses significantly higher than nature
intended.
My feeling now is that I would like to rely for a while on natural
sources like onions and broccoli. Onions have been useful to me,
helping
my sinusitis as well.
_____________________________________________________
Questions about CPPS/CP/Prostatitis?
Visit http://zwitch.to/cpps
Discussion Forum at http://www.delphi.com/prostatitis
Write to CP...@sofcom.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos -- now, 100 FREE prints!
http://photos.yahoo.com
Ken Smith
<no....@anon.xg.nu> wrote:
> the other reports which appeared on this newsgroup (can't reference
> them
> now while the archives are unavailable at Deja).
Newsgroup postings through May 31 are avaailable at
http://prostatitis.org/archives.html and can be searched at
http://prostatitis.org/search.html .
John Garst
<nob...@noisebox.dhs.org> wrote:
...
> John, why don't you give methotrexate a go, as suggested by your
> doctors, just in the name of science? You of all people know the value
> of an experiment. ;-) OR, why not try this drug:
>
> Hautarzt 2000 Feb;51(2):63-9
>
> Mycophenolate mofetil: a new immunosuppressive drug in dermatology and
> its possible uses.
Basically, I guess, I've been afraid to try methotrexate. Is suppression
really what my immune system needs? Some auxiliary indications are that
it needs the opposite. Thus, for many years, I had a chronic, low-grade,
scalp infection. My uro pointed to this as a sign of a slightly, or
selectively, depressed immune system.
John Garst ga...@chem.uga.edu
No User
> <nob...@noisebox.dhs.org> wrote:
> ...
> > John, why don't you give methotrexate a go, as suggested by your
> > doctors, just in the name of science? You of all people know the value
> > of an experiment. ;-) OR, why not try this drug:
> >
> > Hautarzt 2000 Feb;51(2):63-9
> >
> > Mycophenolate mofetil: a new immunosuppressive drug in dermatology and
> > its possible uses.
>
> Basically, I guess, I've been afraid to try methotrexate. Is suppression
> really what my immune system needs?
Try it and see.
> Some auxiliary indications are that
> it needs the opposite. Thus, for many years, I had a chronic, low-grade,
> scalp infection. My uro pointed to this as a sign of a slightly, or
> selectively, depressed immune system.
>
> John Garst ga...@chem.uga.edu
I also thought I had a chronic low grade scalp infection until I stopped
using all soaps and medicated shampoos and just used Johnsons Baby
Shampoo (soap-free) to wash my hair and body. Since then the "rash" on
my glans has cleared and the scalp is much, much better. Atopy, anyone?
Advanced Orthomolecular Research
>
> > I regret very much to inform you all that I have confirmed, in my own
> > mind at least, that quercetin treatment CAN be associated with swelling
> > and pain in joints, particularly the small joints of fingers and toes.
>
No treatment works for everyone, and no one has exactly the same
reactions to any given substance. That's why we run controlled trials:
sot that we can tell what works for most people, and how well, and what
is real, and what's in people's heads. Quercetin is backed with a
double-blind, placebo-controlled trial, and is a great supplement for
cancer prevention, diabetes, and above all, allergies.
HOLISTIC