Forbes.com: Linux Loyalists Leery
J. L. Schilling
http://www.forbes.com/businesstech/2004/03/31/cz_dl_0331linux.html
Jonathan Schilling
Brian
> http://www.forbes.com/businesstech/2004/03/31/cz_dl_0331linux.html
Dan Lyons is a fucking idiot and Forbes is totally Old Money.
You should read some of his other articles about Linux (my favorite is Linux
Hitmen) - total FUD!
IBM has now filed a motion requesting a declaratory judgment in the SCO case
that if allowed, pretty much guts any SCO copyright aspirations.
Brian
Ian Wilson
On the other hand ...
"Why was White Box Linux created?
White Box Linux's initial creation has been sponsored by the Beauregard
Parish Public Library in DeRidder, LA USA out of self interest. We have
several servers and over fifty workstations running Red Hat Linux and
were left high and dry by their recent shift in business plan. Our
choices were a difficult migration to another distribution or paying
RedHat an annual fee greater than the amortized value of our hardware.
So we chose a third path, made possible by the power of Open Source....
White Box Linux. "
;-)
J. L. Schilling
I agree, White Box Linux is excellent. Many if not all RedHat users
should switch to it. Right now.
Jonathan Schilling
Bill Campbell
...
>I agree, White Box Linux is excellent. Many if not all RedHat users
>should switch to it. Right now.
I've never been a Red Hat fan. We moved everything to SuSE from Caldera
over the last couple of years when SCOG basically dropped supporting Linux.
Bill
--
INTERNET: bi...@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Systems, Inc.
UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676
URL: http://www.celestial.com/
``If the government can take a man's money without his consent, there is no
limit to the additional tyranny it may practise upon him; for, with his
money, it can hire soldiers to stand over him, keep him in subjection,
plunder him at discretion, and kill him if he resists.''
Lysander Spooner, 1852
J. L. Schilling
> On Sun, Apr 04, 2004, J. L. Schilling wrote:
> ...
> >I agree, White Box Linux is excellent. Many if not all RedHat users
> >should switch to it. Right now.
>
> I've never been a Red Hat fan. We moved everything to SuSE from Caldera
> over the last couple of years when SCOG basically dropped supporting Linux.
If SuSE contains to gain mindshare and momentum, then surely there will
be a White Box SuSE equivalent of it too. The open source model ensures
that no matter how much money and effort Red Hat and Novell/SuSE put into
improving their Linux products, you can always get the exact same thing
for nothing. Yes, you don't get services and support, but the better
RH and N/S make the product, the less services and support you'll need.
You can't complain about a deal like that!
> ``If the government can take a man's money without his consent, there is no
> limit to the additional tyranny it may practise upon him; [...]
To the extent that governments are starting to require open source products,
and White Box Linux type products abound, Red Hat, Novell/SuSE et al may end
up feeling like the above "man" ...
Jonathan Schilling
Bill Campbell
>Bill Campbell <bi...@celestial.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.0.1081105...@lists.celestial.com>...
>> On Sun, Apr 04, 2004, J. L. Schilling wrote:
>> ...
>> >I agree, White Box Linux is excellent. Many if not all RedHat users
>> >should switch to it. Right now.
>>
>> I've never been a Red Hat fan. We moved everything to SuSE from Caldera
>> over the last couple of years when SCOG basically dropped supporting Linux.
>
>If SuSE contains to gain mindshare and momentum, then surely there will
>be a White Box SuSE equivalent of it too. The open source model ensures
>that no matter how much money and effort Red Hat and Novell/SuSE put into
>improving their Linux products, you can always get the exact same thing
>for nothing. Yes, you don't get services and support, but the better
>RH and N/S make the product, the less services and support you'll need.
>You can't complain about a deal like that!
Personally I always buy the boxed sets, usually from local retailers, and
make sure that packages are purchased for all of our customer
installations. Even the ``Professional'' version of SuSE are well under
$100.00US, and I figure that supporting the companies developing Linux, and
the retailers who sell it is one way to support further development.
Bill
--
INTERNET: bi...@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676
URL: http://www.celestial.com/
``Lord, the money we do spend on Government and it's not one bit better
than the government we got for one third the money twenty years ago.''
Will Rogers
Lucky Leavell
On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Bill Campbell wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 04, 2004, J. L. Schilling wrote:
> ...
> >I agree, White Box Linux is excellent. Many if not all RedHat users
> >should switch to it. Right now.
>
> I've never been a Red Hat fan. We moved everything to SuSE from Caldera
> over the last couple of years when SCOG basically dropped supporting Linux.
>
Same here. We tried both Red Hat and SuSE and found SuSE to be MUCH better
for our purposes. I am moving most work from three SCO systems (OSR5 and
UnixWare 7 ) and one Winders box to a SuSE 9.0 system. When I have time
to mess with wine, I MAY be able to become a M$-free zone!
Lucky Leavell
Bill Campbell
Our office became a totally M$-free zone about two years ago when I
discovered Apple's OS X, and could run TurboTax without Windows. I'm doing
this e-mail from an old 450MhZ G4 running OS X 10.3.3 in xtern connected to
our main file and mail server running FreeBSD. About half my time is spent
on an OS X desktop, the rest on SuSE (with 30+ xterms open into the various
systems we support around the country and locally).
Some of our customers are running the United Parcel shipping software under
win4lin on SuSE boxes with excellent results. FWIW, the the people behind
win4lin have been involved in the DOS/Windows under *nix for many years
going back to Locus' PC Interface and the Merge software that SCO used on
OpenServer, and maybe back as far as OpenDesktop 2.0.
Bill
--
INTERNET: bi...@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676
URL: http://www.celestial.com/
``There is nothing as stupid as an educated man if you get him off the
thing he was educated in.''
Will Rogers
Bill Campbell
Our office became a totally M$-free zone about two years ago when I
discovered Apple's OS X, and could run TurboTax without Windows. I'm doing
this e-mail from an old 450MhZ G4 running OS X 10.3.3 in xtern connected to
our main file and mail server running FreeBSD. About half my time is spent
on an OS X desktop, the rest on SuSE (with 30+ xterms open into the various
systems we support around the country and locally).
Some of our customers are running the United Parcel shipping software under
win4lin on SuSE boxes with excellent results. FWIW, the the people behind
win4lin have been involved in the DOS/Windows under *nix for many years
going back to Locus' PC Interface and the Merge software that SCO used on
OpenServer, and maybe back as far as OpenDesktop 2.0.
Bill
--
INTERNET: bi...@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676
URL: http://www.celestial.com/
``There is nothing as stupid as an educated man if you get him off the
Bob Meyers
"Lucky Leavell" <sco...@unixpress.com> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.58.04...@ris713.UniXpress.com...
>
> > I've never been a Red Hat fan. We moved everything to SuSE from Caldera
> > over the last couple of years when SCOG basically dropped supporting
Linux.
> >
> Same here. We tried both Red Hat and SuSE and found SuSE to be MUCH better
> for our purposes. I am moving most work from three SCO systems (OSR5 and
> UnixWare 7 ) and one Winders box to a SuSE 9.0 system. When I have time
> to mess with wine, I MAY be able to become a M$-free zone!
What's so good about SuSE? Does it have a nice, easy-to-use gui for network
server setup? Do you have software updates, security and patches readily
available?
I tried Corel, Caldera, RedHat. I stuck with RedHat because it made it all
the way to production server, given my skill and resources.
Lucky Leavell
On Mon, 5 Apr 2004, "Bob Meyers" <oregonbob2000 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> "Lucky Leavell" <sco...@unixpress.com> wrote in message
> news:Pine.LNX.4.58.04...@ris713.UniXpress.com...
> >
> > > I've never been a Red Hat fan. We moved everything to SuSE from Caldera
> > > over the last couple of years when SCOG basically dropped supporting
> Linux.
> > >
> > Same here. We tried both Red Hat and SuSE and found SuSE to be MUCH better
> > for our purposes. I am moving most work from three SCO systems (OSR5 and
> > UnixWare 7 ) and one Winders box to a SuSE 9.0 system. When I have time
> > to mess with wine, I MAY be able to become a M$-free zone!
>
> What's so good about SuSE? Does it have a nice, easy-to-use gui for network
> server setup?
Yes
> Do you have software updates, security and patches readily
> available?
Yes
>
> I tried Corel, Caldera, RedHat. I stuck with RedHat because it made it all
> the way to production server, given my skill and resources.
>
I liked it better because of:
1. YaST - their sys admin tool (works in both character and GUI)
gives me better control than Red Hat (examples: SuSEfirewall2
and disk partitioning)
2. Security - has two DoD certifications and SuSEfirewall2
among other things.
I am new to Linux too, having 15+ years with SCO, SVR4 and AIX. We tried
both and SuSE just seemed to be smoother overall from the install to admin
and usage.
Thank you,
Lucky
Giulio Orsero
>If SuSE contains to gain mindshare and momentum, then surely there will
>be a White Box SuSE equivalent of it too. The open source model ensures
This would be much more difficult since SuSE voluntarily intermingled
GPL and proprietary apps into its distro for the purpose of avoiding
"white box" schemes; YAST comes to mind.
This is the same reason why cheapbytes.com could duplicate a redhat cd
and sell "pink tie", but not a suse derivative.
Now Novell says YAST will be opensourced, we'll see what happens.
Bill Campbell
What he said.
>I am new to Linux too, having 15+ years with SCO, SVR4 and AIX. We tried
>both and SuSE just seemed to be smoother overall from the install to admin
>and usage.
I've been using Linux for almost ten years now, and became one of the first
Caldera resellers when Caldera started approaching SCO resellers. At the
time I liked Caldera because of their ``Linux for Business'' motto, because
we needed a stable Linux platform for commercial applications. We
installed our first mission-critical Linux system in a law firm in
September 1997, a system which was rebooted twice in the first 12 months,
the first time after six months when a janitor unplugged the server, the
second time when the computer's main board fried at one year.
Many of the Caldera Linux group in Germany ended up at SuSE after Caldera
purchased SCO, and weren't concentrating on Linux development (I think this
was also part of the UnitedLinux project).
I think that SuSE is probably the best engineered of the commercial Linux
distributions, and we use it for all our commercial installations.
I view many of the Linux distributions like Debian to be more suitable for
people who want to hack on their systems, and not as good for commercial
work where we want to spend time integrating Linux into customer's
business, not hacking on the OS.
Bill
--
INTERNET: bi...@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676
URL: http://www.celestial.com/
``The man who produces while others dispose of his product is a slave.''
Ayn Rand
Jeffrey D Angus
> I think that SuSE is probably the best engineered of the commercial Linux
> distributions, and we use it for all our commercial installations.
>
> I view many of the Linux distributions like Debian to be more suitable for
> people who want to hack on their systems, and not as good for commercial
> work where we want to spend time integrating Linux into customer's
> business, not hacking on the OS.
Thanks for that Bill. I recently got my "Thanks, go fu** yourself"
message from RedHat the other day. And while pondering Fedora, I
think I'll go check out SuSE instead. You're right about Debian, it's
definately in the "Some assembly required" mode still.
> ``The man who produces while others dispose of his product is a slave.''
> Ayn Rand
Who is John Gault.
Jeff
--
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
"A life lived in fear is a life half lived."
Tara Morice as Fran, from the movie "Strictly Ballroom"
Jeff Liebermann
<jan...@socal.rr.com> wrote:
>Bill Campbell wrote:
>
>> I think that SuSE is probably the best engineered of the commercial Linux
>> distributions, and we use it for all our commercial installations.
>>
>> I view many of the Linux distributions like Debian to be more suitable for
>> people who want to hack on their systems, and not as good for commercial
>> work where we want to spend time integrating Linux into customer's
>> business, not hacking on the OS.
>Thanks for that Bill. I recently got my "Thanks, go fu** yourself"
>message from RedHat the other day. And while pondering Fedora, I
>think I'll go check out SuSE instead. You're right about Debian, it's
>definately in the "Some assembly required" mode still.
Most of my customers are still using Red Hate 7.x. I stopped when RH
decided that supporting individual users were beneath their dignity.
My current favorite is SUSE 8.2. I haven't tried 9.0 or the new 9.1
yet. Works well enough. YOU (the online update program) is still a
bit buggish. In general, my customers insist on a "commerical" Linux
distribution. So, they pay the retail box price, and I do the install
from an installation server (with all the updates so I don't have to
download the world).
However, the current trend with the mainstream distributions is to
deliver the kitchen sink. Leave out one obscure package and the wrath
of the penguin horde is upon thee. For example, much of this review
of the new SUSE 9.1 is about the wrong choice of instant messaging
client:
http://www.madpenguin.org/Article1131.html
So, the bloat continues.
Recently, I've been experimenting with various small distributions.
The problem is that I have to decide if I should install the kitchen
sink and remove applications, or install a minimal system, and add
them. So far, the latter seems to work best. The list on:
http://www.linux.org/dist/
of small footprint distributions is rather substantial. Most are more
than adequate for dedicated, single purpose applications. At this
tiem, I'm having better luck building dedicated SAMBA, mail, and web
servers from a basic system, than trying to get SUSE to downsize.
>> ``The man who produces while others dispose of his product is a slave.''
>> Ayn Rand
>Who is John Gault.
>Jeff
Well, if you must ask...
John Gault organized a trade union of scientists, intellectuals,
bankers, doctors, and other professional types, that eventually went
on strike against the government and the establishment. Attempts at
reconciliation and communications by the government were met with
ambivalence. Members of this professional trade union would support
themselves by taking menial jobs, dropping out, or slumming. Whatever
worked.
Eventually, John Gault was betrayed and identified. Manditory
mediation, philosophical debates, the Taft-Hartley Act, and
electrocution were ineffective in getting him to change his
non-negotiable terms. Later, John Gault was rescued and moved to
a survivalist enclave somewhere in Colorado. However, he couldn't
resist saying goodby and did so with an incomprehensible 45 minute
philosphical radio lecture.
--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831.336.2558 voice http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
# je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us
# 831.421.6491 digital_pager je...@cruzio.com AE6KS
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>Some of our customers are running the United Parcel shipping software under
>win4lin on SuSE boxes with excellent results. FWIW, the the people behind
>win4lin have been involved in the DOS/Windows under *nix for many years
>going back to Locus' PC Interface and the Merge software that SCO used on
>OpenServer, and maybe back as far as OpenDesktop 2.0.
Well, if you need a challenge, try getting both UPS WorldShip and
Fedex QuickShip to run simultaneously on a single machine. I've got
4ea Windoze systems with exactly the same headache. They'll all run
either program independently, but will crash with an "insufficient
memory" error if I try to run both. My guess(tm) is that it's the
Fedex software that's trying to hog all of memory, but I'm not sure.
Both Fedex and UPS support claims that "it's not a software problem"
and suggest that I run their software on seperate machines.
Bill Campbell
...
>>Who is John Gault.
>>Jeff
>
>Well, if you must ask...
>
>John Gault organized a trade union of scientists, intellectuals,
>bankers, doctors, and other professional types, that eventually went
>on strike against the government and the establishment. Attempts at
>reconciliation and communications by the government were met with
>ambivalence. Members of this professional trade union would support
>themselves by taking menial jobs, dropping out, or slumming. Whatever
>worked.
>
>Eventually, John Gault was betrayed and identified. Manditory
>mediation, philosophical debates, the Taft-Hartley Act, and
>electrocution were ineffective in getting him to change his
>non-negotiable terms. Later, John Gault was rescued and moved to
>a survivalist enclave somewhere in Colorado. However, he couldn't
>resist saying goodby and did so with an incomprehensible 45 minute
>philosphical radio lecture.
Fairly close, but it's John Galt (no u).
Even farther off topic, I read Brock Yates' book `` Cannonball! World's
Greatest Outlaw Road Race'' last weekend as April 1st was the 25th
anniversary of the last Cannonball (I finished 2nd in Auto Driveaway class
-- 29 stops for fuel for the '73 Ford Thunderbird shot any chances we had
of a high finish :-). Brock mentioned that Dan Gurney originally turned
down Brock's offer to co-drive the Ferarri in the 2nd Cannonball, but
decided that he really wanted to after reading an Ayn Rand essay
``Moratorium on Brains'' which deals with the rising power of the federal
government and the loss of individual freedoms.
Twenty five years ago today I was sitting beside the pool at the Portofino
Motor Inn in Redondo Beach, California with a bunch of car nuts attempting
to shoot down seagulls with champagne corks.
Bill
--
INTERNET: bi...@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Systems, Inc.
UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676
URL: http://www.celestial.com/
``Fix reason firmly in her seat and call to her tribunal every fact,
every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God;
because, if there is one, he must more approve of the homage of
reason, than that of blindfolded fear.'' --Thomas Jefferson
Scott McMillan
Reading through this thread I notice nobody is (claiming to) using
Slackware - Just wondering why? I've found Slackware to be a very good
candidate for a production server - Maybe I'm missing something?
I also find Slackware to be quite easy to navigate, given my SCO
background. Any comments, pros/cons?
Thanks
Scott McMillan
Brian
> Reading through this thread I notice nobody is (claiming to) using
> Slackware - Just wondering why? I've found Slackware to be a very good
> candidate for a production server - Maybe I'm missing something?
> I also find Slackware to be quite easy to navigate, given my SCO
> background. Any comments, pros/cons?
I use Slackware for production network services, desktops and thin client
servers.
Slack 9.1 is excellent for network services - totally predictable and rock
solid.
Slack Current is great for creating desktops and remote desktop clients.
Leading edge KDE 3.2.1 desktop system and now featuring XFree86 4.4 unlike
many other distros.
Slackware is the most Unix-like of the Linuxes and enjoys a good reputation
amongst IT sysadmins and users alike.
The Slackware installation process begs to be customized allowing an ease of
use for precise install CD creation,
So, in my humble opinion, Slackware is the best for me and my clients.
Best regards,
Brian
Bill Vermillion
Jeff Liebermann <je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote:
>On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 23:55:52 GMT, Jeffrey D Angus
><jan...@socal.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>Bill Campbell wrote:
>>> Ayn Rand
...
>>Who is John Gault.
>>Jeff
>Well, if you must ask...
....
> However, he couldn't
>resist saying goodby and did so with an incomprehensible 45 minute
>philosphical radio lecture.
The long philosphical speech in the courtroom worked so well for
Howard Roark that Rand seemed to go to the extreme with Galt.
I reread the latter every 5-7 years.
Bill
--
Bill Vermillion - bv @ wjv . com
Roger Irwin
>
> I also find Slackware to be quite easy to navigate, given my SCO
> background. Any comments, pros/cons?
Slakware install is very simple (just scripts with a TCL/TK front end
wizard to walk you through them), it is easy to customise for repeat
installs but upgrading to the latest and greatest versions of packages
requires a bit of hand stiching. No problems if you are *nix aware,
everything is where you would expect it to be ;-)
About the custom install......copy the distro onto a server and you can
make your own lists of what you want to include and tweak the
scripts....then just install via FTP or NFS.
It is not bloated, but is not as pedantic as debian about what it allows
to be included (allthougth most dubious stuff from a gpl purists view is
on a seperate CD).
Frankly, it is very good middle ground for people who can do there own
sysadmin and like to be in control of what is installed and how it is
configured.
Scott McMillan
wrote:
>Scott McMillan wrote:
>> Reading through this thread I notice nobody is (claiming to) using
>> Slackware - Just wondering why? I've found Slackware to be a very good
>> candidate for a production server - Maybe I'm missing something?
>
>> I also find Slackware to be quite easy to navigate, given my SCO
>> background. Any comments, pros/cons?
>
>I use Slackware for production network services, desktops and thin client
>servers.
>
>Slack 9.1 is excellent for network services - totally predictable and rock
>solid.
>
>Slack Current is great for creating desktops and remote desktop clients.
>Leading edge KDE 3.2.1 desktop system and now featuring XFree86 4.4 unlike
>many other distros.
I have not tried Slack as a desktop OS - Yet. Seems it is time to
give it a go.
>
>Slackware is the most Unix-like of the Linuxes and enjoys a good reputation
>amongst IT sysadmins and users alike.
This is why I was drawn to Slackware in the first place. I didn't
have any trouble 'finding' my way around.
BTW, which package tool do you use on Slack (slapt-get, swaret, ?)
>
>The Slackware installation process begs to be customized allowing an ease of
>use for precise install CD creation,
>
>So, in my humble opinion, Slackware is the best for me and my clients.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Brian
I have found Slack to be very stable as well. I was surprised that
none of the prior posts had mentioned it.
Thanks for your comments.
Scott McMillan
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>The long philosphical speech in the courtroom worked so well for
>Howard Roark that Rand seemed to go to the extreme with Galt.
>
>I reread the latter every 5-7 years.
>Bill
Likewise. Whenever I find myself drifting philosophically toward
socialism and the welfare state mentality, I re-read Atlas Shugged.
I've lost track of how many times I've re-read the huge book.
Probably about 6 times. However, the long philosophical speech is
terminally boring and redundant as all the important points are
covered elsewhere in the book in multiple instances. Way back in
college daze, I took a public speaking class, and offered to use the
long philosophical speech as part of practice reading from notes. I
did a trial run that lasted about 45 minutes. I had a sore throat
when I was done. My test audience (roommates) were asleep or had
escaped. I found another, shorter speech.
--
Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
(831)421-6491 pgr (831)336-2558 home
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS
je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us je...@cruzio.com
Bill Campbell
>wrote:
>
>>The long philosphical speech in the courtroom worked so well for
>>Howard Roark that Rand seemed to go to the extreme with Galt.
>>
>>I reread the latter every 5-7 years.
>>Bill
>
>Likewise. Whenever I find myself drifting philosophically toward
>socialism and the welfare state mentality, I re-read Atlas Shugged.
If you want something a bit shorter you might try some of Murray N.
Rothbard's books. In particular his ``America's Great Depression'' and
``History of Money and Banking in the U.S.'' are extremely interesting.
The Rothbard books are all available from www.mises.org, and I think are
available on-line there as well.
>I've lost track of how many times I've re-read the huge book.
>Probably about 6 times. However, the long philosophical speech is
>terminally boring and redundant as all the important points are
>covered elsewhere in the book in multiple instances. Way back in
>college daze, I took a public speaking class, and offered to use the
>long philosophical speech as part of practice reading from notes. I
>did a trial run that lasted about 45 minutes. I had a sore throat
>when I was done. My test audience (roommates) were asleep or had
>escaped. I found another, shorter speech.
Perhaps 'Frisco's money speech :-).
BTW: I didn't pick the signature quote below specifically for this
posting, but it seems to fit.
Bill
--
INTERNET: bi...@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676
URL: http://www.celestial.com/
``If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude
greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace.
We seek not your consul, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that
feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget
ye were our countrymen.'' -- Samuel Adams (American Patriot)
Bill Vermillion
Jeff Liebermann <je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote:
>On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 04:25:01 GMT, b...@wjv.comREMOVE (Bill Vermillion)
>wrote:
>
>>The long philosphical speech in the courtroom worked so well for
>>Howard Roark that Rand seemed to go to the extreme with Galt.
>>
>>I reread the latter every 5-7 years.
>>Bill
>Likewise. Whenever I find myself drifting philosophically toward
>socialism and the welfare state mentality, I re-read Atlas Shugged.
>I've lost track of how many times I've re-read the huge book.
I've had at least one copy never come back, and my current is in
the hands of my son.
>Probably about 6 times. However, the long philosophical speech is
>terminally boring and redundant as all the important points are
>covered elsewhere in the book in multiple instances. Way back in
>college daze, I took a public speaking class, and offered to use the
>long philosophical speech as part of practice reading from notes. I
>did a trial run that lasted about 45 minutes. I had a sore throat
>when I was done. My test audience (roommates) were asleep or had
>escaped. I found another, shorter speech.
Philsophical speeches could be cures for insomnia.
That a long speech wouldn't have bothered me at all. I developed
'leather-lungs' in my life two careers ago. I don't recall if they
were 15 minute or 1/2 hour newscasts that I had to read before we
went to the network newscast. I think it was 15. But doing that
at the start of the 6 hour shift, and 75% of the commercial being
read live, I got so I could continue quite a while. Talking several
hours/day six days a week give you lungs like an opera singer.
It's been a long time since I've talked from notes but I was able
to keep going about 1/2 an hour as an invited speaker in a media
oriented event many years ago. I got a good round of applause
after it was done - not one of those "Let's clap because he's done
type things".
The speech that Gary Cooper delivers at his trial [as Howard Roark]
in The Fountainhead was an excellent performance and only about 7
or 8 minutes long. AS is something that has been talked about
being filmed forever - but I can't see it holding up in today's
world as a motion picture. Her only other film We The Living
{english title} is slow and dull. I'd say it's one to avoid.
1942 or 1943 Italian film pulled by Mussolini's government shortly
after release. Some books should be left in printed form only.
Philsophical speeches could be cures for insomnia.
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>I've had at least one copy never come back, and my current is in
>the hands of my son.
I think I'm on my 3rd copy. I'm down to a paper back which is slowly
disintegrating.
>Philsophical speeches could be cures for insomnia.
>That a long speech wouldn't have bothered me at all. I developed
>'leather-lungs' in my life two careers ago.
My voice sounds like an amplified mouse gargling ball bearings. With
a little effort, I immitate Ross Perot. I'm fairly good at public
speaking, but only if the audience ignores the voice. I've considered
using a Bode shifter for public engagements, but have never had the
guts to try it.
>It's been a long time since I've talked from notes but I was able
>to keep going about 1/2 an hour as an invited speaker in a media
>oriented event many years ago. I got a good round of applause
>after it was done - not one of those "Let's clap because he's done
>type things".
It's always easier if you know your topic. I give song-n-dance
speeches at the clubs and kollege classes on various topics. Next
week, I give one on the local cellular phone system. I usually go for
about 45 minutes plus 10 minutes of dumb questions. Nobody has ever
walked out (and lived to tell about it).
>The speech that Gary Cooper delivers at his trial [as Howard Roark]
>in The Fountainhead was an excellent performance and only about 7
>or 8 minutes long.
Yeah, but it wasn't anywhere as long as Howard Roark's in Atlas
Shrugged. 45 minutes was a mixture of going slow for the typical test
audience, and speeding up about half way through when I realized I was
losing them. If they ever do a movie, Roark's long philosphical radio
broadcast will probably be severely truncated.
>AS is something that has been talked about
>being filmed forever
It's back on track. However, my experience in the advertising biz
suggests that there will be few advertising agencies willing to
sponsor it on TV. Maybe a movie, but only through alternative
distribution channels. Worst case, the Burro of Homeland Security
will declare it to be a subversive film.
See:
http://www.missliberty.com/FilmAtlas.html
http://www.atlassociety.org/news_atlas-shrugged-film.asp
for the latest on the movie.
Films and movies by and about Ayn Rand:
http://www.atlassociety.org/tas/films.asp
>Philsophical speeches could be cures for insomnia.
Sound bites work better on todays GUM (great unwashed masses) than
long philosophical speeches.
Bill Campbell
....
>
>>The speech that Gary Cooper delivers at his trial [as Howard Roark]
>>in The Fountainhead was an excellent performance and only about 7
>>or 8 minutes long.
>
>Yeah, but it wasn't anywhere as long as Howard Roark's in Atlas
>Shrugged. 45 minutes was a mixture of going slow for the typical test
>audience, and speeding up about half way through when I realized I was
>losing them. If they ever do a movie, Roark's long philosphical radio
>broadcast will probably be severely truncated.
John Galt was in Atlas Shrugged, Roark in The Fountainhead. Roark's speech
was much shorter than Galts. Ayn Rand fought tooth and nail to keep
Roark's speech intact in the movie.
>>AS is something that has been talked about
>>being filmed forever
>
>It's back on track. However, my experience in the advertising biz
>suggests that there will be few advertising agencies willing to
>sponsor it on TV. Maybe a movie, but only through alternative
>distribution channels. Worst case, the Burro of Homeland Security
>will declare it to be a subversive film.
Hollywood types has a very difficult time with movies like Atlas Shrugged,
Animal Farm, Starship Troopers, or any that don't fit their particular
prejudices (probably because they can't understand them).
The Homeland Security people would be upset if anybody said today what was
said in the U.S. Declaration of Independence.
Bill
--
INTERNET: bi...@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us
with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forego their use."
-- Galileo Galilei
Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
>On Wed, Apr 07, 2004, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
(argh...)
>John Galt was in Atlas Shrugged, Roark in The Fountainhead. Roark's speech
>was much shorter than Galts. Ayn Rand fought tooth and nail to keep
>Roark's speech intact in the movie.
First I can't spell. Now I get the characters backwards. Todays
excuse is that I was being harassed by several people in the office to
get off the computah and do the exercise walk thing. Sorry.
I once watched the Fountainhead on TV and compared the courtroom
speech with the original from the book. There were plenty of minor
changes. However, they were of what methinks were good reasons.
People do not write the same way they talk. Reading newspaper copy
over the radio sounds horrid. Same with printing transcripts of
speeches. So, Roark's (I got it right this time) courtroom testimony
was cleaned up slightly for a speech.
>Hollywood types has a very difficult time with movies like Atlas Shrugged,
>Animal Farm, Starship Troopers, or any that don't fit their particular
>prejudices (probably because they can't understand them).
Sure. History gets rewritten in the eyes of the movie makers. My
parents were part of the Shindler Juden in the movie Shindlers List.
In the movie, Stephen Spielberg shows that Jews as basically unarmed.
No guns anywhere in sight. Well, that wasn't the case as the
concentration camp inmates armed themselves to the teeth as soon as
the prison guards left. However, Spielberg is very much a gun control
advocate, and therefore adjusted the movie to fit his position.
Having Oscar and Elsie drive off into the sunset at the end was also
contrived for similar reasons.
Micheal Moore is even more political. What he presented as a
documentary, is actually a rather carefully edited fabrication
designed to misrepresent the views of those interviewed and adjust
events to the convenience of the authors politics:
http://www.bowlingfortruth.com
Hollyweird may not understand reality, but they certainly know how to
adjust it. If Atlas Shugged ever becomes a real movie, you can be
sure that there were be a few adjustments to "update" the philosphical
payload to correspond to todays political correctness or studios point
of view.
>The Homeland Security people would be upset if anybody said today what was
>said in the U.S. Declaration of Independence.
Sure. They're selling "safety", not "freedom" which seem to be in
their minds, mutually exclusive.
Bill Vermillion
Jeff Liebermann <je...@comix.santa-cruz.ca.us> wrote:
>On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 20:25:00 GMT, b...@wjv.comREMOVE (Bill Vermillion)
>wrote:
>>That a long speech wouldn't have bothered me at all. I developed
>>'leather-lungs' in my life two careers ago.
>My voice sounds like an amplified mouse gargling ball bearings. With
>a little effort, I immitate Ross Perot. I'm fairly good at public
>speaking, but only if the audience ignores the voice. I've considered
>using a Bode shifter for public engagements, but have never had the
>guts to try it.
Worked in radio for years I tend to project in normal speech, and
I crossed the 200 pound mark when I was in the 7th grade at 12
years old [though that seems not so out of place in today's world].
As a result I tend to itimidate people, and one client said to me
the next day "I'm not going to talk to you at night because you
shouted at me". [typically most of the work I did for him
was 4PM to 10PM]. I wasn't shouting. So now I tell people up
front about that and tell them to let me know. Before I took up
computers full-time at a previous place the owner came to me as I'd
scared the new secretary.
...
>>The speech that Gary Cooper delivers at his trial [as Howard Roark]
>>in The Fountainhead was an excellent performance and only about 7
>>or 8 minutes long.
>Yeah, but it wasn't anywhere as long as Howard Roark's in Atlas
>Shrugged. 45 minutes was a mixture of going slow for the typical test
>audience, and speeding up about half way through when I realized I was
>losing them. If they ever do a movie, Roark's long philosphical radio
>broadcast will probably be severely truncated.
It is long enough to make up a film in itself.
>>AS is something that has been talked about
>>being filmed forever
>It's back on track. However, my experience in the advertising biz
>suggests that there will be few advertising agencies willing to
>sponsor it on TV. Maybe a movie, but only through alternative
>distribution channels. Worst case, the Burro of Homeland Security
>will declare it to be a subversive film.
It would realy fit best in a made-for-cable environment I'd guess.
>>Philsophical speeches could be cures for insomnia.
>Sound bites work better on todays GUM (great unwashed masses) than
>long philosophical speeches.
And I thought GUM was just a famous department store :-)
J. L. Schilling
and say that I have no use for Rand, selfishness as a virtue,
love of the almighty dollar, Objectivism, any of the post-Rand
Objectivist factions, or the Rand personality cult. Guess that's
why I'm a salaried serf while the rest of you are entrepreneurial
resellers ;-)
Bill Campbell <bi...@celestial.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.7.1081314...@lists.celestial.com>...
> Hollywood types has a very difficult time with movies like Atlas Shrugged,
> Animal Farm, Starship Troopers, or any that don't fit their particular
> prejudices (probably because they can't understand them).
I just want to know why those futuristic starship troopers never heard
of tanks or other armored vehicles!? If they had just used a few of those
they wouldn't have been so busy getting chopped to pieces by Bugs and
they could have spent more time explaining the role of citizenship to
military service or whatever that Heileinian theme that got mangled was.
Jonathan Schilling
Steve M. Fabac, Jr.
Too True. Starship Troopers did not follow Heileinian's story in the details of
the troopers equipment. In the book the MI (mobil infantry) used powered armor
suits. In the movie, these were unknown. I read the book back in the '60s and have
been waiting for a studio to do a movie based upon the book. I was ecstatic when
the original announcements appeared before the movie. God was I disappointed when
the movie omitted this central detail. This poor rip-off could only be made after
Heileinian's death for he surely would have insisted that the movie include
power armor.
For anyone not familiar with the story: Powered armor is an exoskeleton with
motorized joints to enable the wearer to move the suit. The inside of the suit
contained sensors that detected the pressure of the human occupant when the
occupant moved their arm, the suit's electronics (ne computer) would activate
the joint motors to move the suit to decrease the measured presser. Wear the
suit, move your arm and the suit's arm moved in the same direction to relieve
the pressure caused by the occupant's arm on the suit's sensors. Jump, and the
suit jumped, but the suit could jump over a low level building. Jump harder, and
the suit's rocket motors would extend the height and also fire to cushion the
landing. The occupant did not fly or operate the powered armor, they just wore
it, leaving the human mind free to concentrate on the combat situation.
The suits were vacuum rated with life support. In the book, MI troopers were
dropped from orbit in individual re-entry canisters that were multi-layered
and burned off during re-entry. the inner-most canister survived to mid atmospheric
levels and was jettisoned by the soldier, who then free fell to lower altitudes
before deploying a "ring chute" to slow his decent and finally landed with
suits rockets cushioning the landing.
>
> Jonathan Schilling
--
Steve Fabac
S.M. Fabac & Associates
816/765-1670
Ian Wilson
Yeah, but did the suits run OSR707 or BlackSuit 9 (a fork of RedHat)?
That's what we need to know!
to...@pcunix.com
>Alas I have to interrupt this Ayn-fest to commit another solecism
>and say that I have no use for Rand, selfishness as a virtue,
>love of the almighty dollar, Objectivism, any of the post-Rand
>Objectivist factions, or the Rand personality cult. Guess that's
>why I'm a salaried serf while the rest of you are entrepreneurial
>resellers ;-)
Well, you could look at it that way. You could also say that you
help support the Evil Corporate System :-) by allowing yourself to
be enslaved by it. Just another way to look at it.
Some of us are entrepeneurial not for love of money or self, but
because we don't like group-think and prefer to be independent.
I know that for many, many people, there doesn't seem to be any other
choice but serfdom. You have bills to pay, children to care for,
a lifestyle you don't want to lose. You trade your freedom for security.
At one time in human history, all of us were entrepeneurs in
some sense. In another sense, of course, we were tied to
small groups even more strongly than you are tied to your
employer. Hard to say whether you are more or less free,
but I am definitely MORE free than most people have been
able to be at any time in human history.
I can't speak for others, but for me, the desire for freedom,
the ability to pilot my own course, and the avoidance of petty
strictures is why I am independently employed. It isn't an
easy life always, but I realized early on that I couldn't
improve it by enslaving other people (I know that seems like
a very harsh word, but that is how I view most employment).
I did have daydreams about being successful enough where I
could create a worker's utopia - where the people who worked for
me would enjoy independence and freedom. Gosh what a lovely
picture. I soon realized that can never be because those that
COULD be part of such an environment are perfectly capable of
creating it themselves and those who are not don't want it:
they want the safety of someone else controlling their lives.
That this "safety" is a false promise is obvious, yet people
believe it.. but I'm rambling :-)
Anyway, not all of us are money-grubbing selfish bastards.
Some of us are crazy libertarian wishful-utopian but practical
realist bastards.
More at http://www.aplawrence.com/Opinion/employ.html
--
to...@pcunix.com Unix/Linux/Mac OS X resources: http://aplawrence.com
Get paid for writing about tech: http://aplawrence.com/publish.html
--
to...@pcunix.com Unix/Linux/Mac OS X resources: http://aplawrence.com
Get paid for writing about tech: http://aplawrence.com/publish.html
Bill Vermillion
J. L. Schilling <jlsels...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>Bill Campbell <bi...@celestial.com> wrote in message news:<mailman.7.1081314...@lists.celestial.com>...
>> Hollywood types has a very difficult time with movies like
>> Atlas Shrugged, Animal Farm, Starship Troopers, or any that
>> don't fit their particular prejudices (probably because they
>> can't understand them).
>I just want to know why those futuristic starship troopers never
>heard of tanks or other armored vehicles!? If they had just used
>a few of those they wouldn't have been so busy getting chopped
>to pieces by Bugs and they could have spent more time explaining
>the role of citizenship to military service or whatever that
>Heileinian theme that got mangled was.
H'wood never has consistancy in their films for the most part.
I always thought it was strange in the Star Wars series that the
images projected in air in the communcations/messages looked like
something from a 1950's TV set with poor reception.
It certainly wasn't done in the way Gilliam did in Brazil - with
current technology ideas placed upon 1930s hardware conceptions.
to...@pcunix.com
>and say that I have no use for Rand, selfishness as a virtue,
By the way, you probably misunderstand Rand's use of the word
selfish. If not, you shouldn't just throw that out because
it can mislead people.
It was probably a bad choice of word for her.
This is as good a capsule as any on that:
http://www.objectivistcenter.org/objectivism/faqs/jraibley_faq-virtue-selfishness.asp
Oh, and I'm not a Rand fan. Much of my philosophy is quite in tune,
but I developed that independently, long before I'd ever heard of
her. I read enough of her to know I didn't need to read more :-)
Besides, most of us actually living outside of Corporate, Inc.
trying to lead independent lives, don't have enough spare time for
philosophy.. that's an irony Ayn Rand would have to appreciate.
Bill Campbell
>J. L. Schilling <jlsels...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>Alas I have to interrupt this Ayn-fest to commit another solecism
>>and say that I have no use for Rand, selfishness as a virtue,
>
>By the way, you probably misunderstand Rand's use of the word
>selfish. If not, you shouldn't just throw that out because
>it can mislead people.
>
>It was probably a bad choice of word for her.
Actually she was very careful in choosing that word. See her book,
``Virtue of Selfishness'' for more.
...
>Besides, most of us actually living outside of Corporate, Inc.
>trying to lead independent lives, don't have enough spare time for
>philosophy.. that's an irony Ayn Rand would have to appreciate.
When I was in high school and university, history and philosophy were very
low on my list of priorities. Reading Heinlein, Mack Reynolds, Gordon R.
Dickson, and other SF authors was probably the closest I got to politics
then. As I got older, I came to realize that intelligent people ignoring
politics is the main reason we lose our freedoms.
The funny thing is that now the vast majority of my non-technical reading
is about economics, philosophy, and politics. There's a book, ``It All
Started with Ayn Rand'' which I haven't read, but the title is applicable
to me. I didn't read any Rand until I was about fifty when I read ``Atlas
Shrugged''. Since then I've read all her fiction, and most of her non-
fiction which led me to other authors including most of the Austrian
economists, Rothbard, Mises, Hayek, some Anthony Sutton, and numerous
others. One of the more interesting was ``Total Freedom: Toward a
Dialectical Libertarianism'' by Chris Mattthew Sciabarra in which he
emphasises the dialectical process of looking at the world from many
different viewpoints.
Bill
--
INTERNET: bi...@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676
URL: http://www.celestial.com/
The cry has been that when war is declared, all opposition should
therefore be hushed. A sentiment more unworthy of a free country could
hardly be propagated. If the doctrine be admitted, rulers have only to
declare war and they are screened at once from scrutiny ... In war,
then, as in peace, assert the freedom of speech and of the press.
Cling to this as the bulwark of all our rights and privileges.
-- William Ellery Channing
to...@pcunix.com
>On Thu, Apr 08, 2004, to...@pcunix.com wrote:
>>J. L. Schilling <jlsels...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>>>Alas I have to interrupt this Ayn-fest to commit another solecism
>>>and say that I have no use for Rand, selfishness as a virtue,
>>
>>By the way, you probably misunderstand Rand's use of the word
>>selfish. If not, you shouldn't just throw that out because
>>it can mislead people.
>>
>>It was probably a bad choice of word for her.
>Actually she was very careful in choosing that word. See her book,
>``Virtue of Selfishness'' for more.
I know she was careful. That doesn't mean it was wise. Ever
since, people misunderstand "selfishness as a virtue".
People who redefine words shouldn't :-)
Jeffrey D Angus
to...@pcunix.com wrote:
> Bill Campbell <bi...@celestial.com> wrote:
>>
>>Actually she was very careful in choosing that word. See her book,
>>``Virtue of Selfishness'' for more.
>
> I know she was careful. That doesn't mean it was wise. Ever
> since, people misunderstand "selfishness as a virtue".
One of the books sitting on the shelf here, that I refer to
periodically is titled "The Art of Selfishness." And interesting
read, and despite the title is simply a reminder to do for your
self rather than for others. It's ok to say no.
Jeff Liebermann
<scob...@infotop.co.uk> wrote:
>Yeah, but did the suits run OSR707 or BlackSuit 9 (a fork of RedHat)?
>That's what we need to know!
Nope. The suits were running on Windoze 3000, which explains why they
were dropped from the film version. Too many crashes, hangs, and loss
of protection faults.
--
Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
Brian
> Brian wrote:
>>Slack Current is great for creating desktops and remote desktop clients.
>>Leading edge KDE 3.2.1 desktop system and now featuring XFree86 4.4 unlike
>>many other distros.
> I have not tried Slack as a desktop OS - Yet. Seems it is time to
> give it a go.
I ama KDE guy and all that is requiredto get Slack running on the desktop is
run 'xf86config' and answer the questions. If you have a wheelmouse, you
will want to add an option under the 'InputDevice' Section:
Option "ZAxisMapping" "4 5"
>>Slackware is the most Unix-like of the Linuxes and enjoys a good
>>reputation amongst IT sysadmins and users alike.
> This is why I was drawn to Slackware in the first place. I didn't
> have any trouble 'finding' my way around.
> BTW, which package tool do you use on Slack (slapt-get, swaret, ?)
I use neither - I use rsync to keep an updated package at every location. My
commercial clients expect me to keep track of their systems. I do almost
all my admin online using ssh and dialup.
>>So, in my humble opinion, Slackware is the best for me and my clients.
> I have found Slack to be very stable as well. I was surprised that
> none of the prior posts had mentioned it.
(It's our little secret)
8^)
Best regards,
Brian
Bill Campbell
>On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 08:34:00 +0000 (UTC), Ian Wilson
><scob...@infotop.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Yeah, but did the suits run OSR707 or BlackSuit 9 (a fork of RedHat)?
>>That's what we need to know!
>
>Nope. The suits were running on Windoze 3000, which explains why they
>were dropped from the film version. Too many crashes, hangs, and loss
>of protection faults.
Was this before or after the Borg's ship was first disabled by infecting it
with Windows worms, then with Solitaire, and finally by a swarm of
Microsoft lawyer-slime carrying briefcases outside their space suits (I
guess one can't refer to them as land-sharks here :-)?
Bill
--
INTERNET: bi...@Celestial.COM Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
UUCP: camco!bill PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
FAX: (206) 232-9186 Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820; (206) 236-1676
URL: http://www.celestial.com/
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill
the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
J. L. Schilling
> J. L. Schilling <jlsels...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> >Alas I have to interrupt this Ayn-fest to commit another solecism
> >and say that I have no use for Rand, selfishness as a virtue,
>
> By the way, you probably misunderstand Rand's use of the word
> selfish. If not, you shouldn't just throw that out because
> it can mislead people.
>
> It was probably a bad choice of word for her.
>
> This is as good a capsule as any on that:
> http://www.objectivistcenter.org/objectivism/faqs/jraibley_faq-virtue-selfishness.asp
Actually, I think I do understand her meaning of selfishness, at least
at the rough level. But the elucidations of this approach tend to look
to me either like truisms or Stuart Smalleyisms, such as this from the
above faq:
For her, the truly selfish person is a self-respecting, self-supporting
human being who neither sacrifices others to himself nor sacrifices
himself to others.
But in general I don't have much truck for philosophy. And her big
novels are to me utterly artless. And I distrust any movements that
center around a personality cult. And she herself seems to have been
one of the most difficult people to have ever walked the earth. So
while it may condemn me to a lifetime of unRoarkeness and nonGaultitude,
I still have no use for her.
Nonetheless I do admire the spirit of resellers in our field, no matter
from whence their spirit derives....
Jonathan Schilling