jaser vs jazz:which came first?
howard richler
possible that the word "jazz" came from the French "jaser" as French
was spoken in New Orleans in Creole or the Acadian (Cajun) of the
early settlers.Also in New Orleans jazz there is a sort of
conversation between the instruments when a phrase from one player is
repeated and elaborated on by another player in a sort of ""gossiping
back and forth" routine. This being said, I still suspect that the
term "jazz"( or alternate spellings) was used in English before the
French term "jaser" but can anybody verify this?
MC
hric...@sympatico.ca (howard richler) wrote:
> The French verb "jaser" means "to gossip back and forth." Is it
> possible that the word "jazz" came from the French "jaser" as French
> was spoken in New Orleans in Creole or the Acadian (Cajun) of the
> early settlers.
It's often cited as a possible source of the word jazz.
> Also in New Orleans jazz there is a sort of
> conversation between the instruments when a phrase from one player is
> repeated and elaborated on by another player in a sort of ""gossiping
> back and forth" routine. This being said, I still suspect that the
> term "jazz"( or alternate spellings) was used in English before the
> French term "jaser" but can anybody verify this?
Hmmm.... I'd be inclned to think (without any supporting evidence) that
"jaser" predates "jazz."
A quick google turned this up:
http://www.bobrigter.com/etymologyjazz.htm
The etymology of the word JAZZ
Bob Rigter
[This is an abridged version of Bob Rigter (1991), Light on the Dark
Etymology of JAZZ in the Oxford English Dictionary, in Tieken & Frankis
(eds.), Language usage and description, Editions Rodopi, Amsterdam -
Atlanta. ISBN 90-5183-312-1]
This article discusses the entries for the word JAZZ in the 1933 and
1976 supplements to the first edition of the Oxford English Dictionary
(OED), and in the body of the text of the second, 1989, edition.
Although, compared to the 1933 supplement, the 1976 and 1989 entries
show a decided improvement in approach and quality, none of them offers
an etymology for the word JAZZ.
In this article, arguments are put forward for a creolized French
etymology. The word is derived from French CHASSE.
The 1933 supplement
The entries for JAZZ as a substantive and a verb in the 1933 supplement
to the OED are illustrated with quotations dating from 1918 to 1930. The
drift of some of these quotations is derogatory and racist, even though
by 1930 the development of jazz music and jazz culture was already such
that the emergence of jazz as America¹s principal contribution to world
culture was beginning to be discernable. There is no mention of any use
of the word JAZZ before 1918. Clearly, the editors were not aware of, or
did not see fit to include, the word JASS on the label of the first jazz
record, which appeared on 7 March 1917, and contained the music of the
Original Dixieland Jass Band. Since one million copies of this record
were sold, it must have played an important role in the dissemination of
the word JASS. The 1933 supplement does not provide an etymology of the
word JASS or JAZZ.
The 1976 supplement
The entries in the 1976 supplement are illustrated with quotations
dating from 1909 to 1974. The number of quotations is considerably
increased, and, with two exceptions dating from 1919, quotations
containing the word nigger have been removed. Also the attitude to jazz,
and specifically jazz music, has become less derogatory. Witness, for
example, the suppression of the 1930 quotation from the Observer, in
which jazz is opposed to Œreal music.¹
Note the following entries for JAZZ as a substantive:
a. ... a type of music originating among American Negroes, characterized
by its use of improvisation, syncopated phrasing, a regular
or forceful rhythm, often in common time, and a Œswinging¹ quality...
b. A piece of jazz music....
c. spec. A passage of improvised music in a jazz performance....
2. transf. Energy, excitement, Œpep¹; restlessness, excitability....
3. Meaningless or empty talk, nonsense, rot, Œrubbish¹;
unnecessary ornamentation; anything unpleasant or
disagreeable.... 4. slang. Sexual intercourse.
And as a verb: 1. trans. To speed or liven up; to render more
colourful, Œmodern,¹ or sensational; to excite.... b. To play
(music, or an instrument) in the style of jazz. Freq. const. up....
2. intr. To play jazz; to dance to jazz music. Hence transf., to
move in a grotesque or fantastic manner; to behave wildly...
3. trans. and intr. To have sexual intercourse (with). slang.
The editor of the 1976 supplement has adopted the policy of letting the
jazz world do some of its own defining of what jazz is, by including a
number of quotations from jazz musicians such as Jo Jones and Dave
Brubeck, jazz critics such as Leonard Feather and Marshall Stearns, and
a music journal such as Melody Maker.
There are also a number of quotations from sources that suggest
conceivable origins of the word JAZZ. Many of these suggestions hint at
a black African origin and point to the usage of the word in the Creole
dialect in New Orleans.
No etymology of the word JAZZ is provided.
The second edition of the OED (1989)
The information under JAZZ in the 1976 supplement to the OED is
incorporated unaltered in the main body of the 1989 edition.
Accordingly, no etymology of the word JAZZ is provided there either.
African slaves and French creolisation
American blacks were imported as slaves from Africa. On the African
coast there were French, Dutch, English and Danish settlements from
which the slave trade was carried on. More to the south there were also
Portuguese settlements. The islands Guadeloupe, Martinique and, until
1800, Haïti were French.
In the early nineteenth century, before the first negro republic was
founded in Haïti in 1804, French-speaking white slave-owners fled from
Haïti with their slaves to New Orleans in Louisiana. At the time,
Louisiana was French. The year of the Louisiana Purchase, when the
Americans bought Louisiana from Napolean, was 1803.
Black slaves were also imported in Louisiana directly from the African
coast. A considerable number of the slaves imported in French-speaking
Louisiana, were supplied by French slave traders. African slaves in
Louisiana did not preserve their original African languages. Due to the
fact that they had been captured or bought as individuals from various
regional and tribal backgrounds, they developed pidgin languages in
which much of the vocabulary was adopted from the language of their
masters. Even today, French continues to be spoken in certain areas of
Louisiana. In view of all this, the conclusion is justified that, in the
later nineteenth century, black speakers in Louisiana would have quite
some words of French origin in their vocabulary.
The origin of jazz music
Jazz music originated in New Orleans at the beginning of the twentieth
century. Many inhabitants of New Orleans were Creoles of mixed French
and African origin. A number of these Creoles were accomplished
musicians, trained in the European musical tradition. Whatever
light-coloured Creoles may have retained of a heritage of African music
was often suppressed due to the demands of cultured behaviour in a
society in which Creoles of mixed blood did not look upon themselves as
blacks.
There was a lot of dancing in New Orleans, not only in the Voodoo
gatherings of proletarian blacks in Congo Square, but also at more
European picnics, boat-trips, dances and other functions. Musicians were
in great demand. When in 1898 the Spanish-American war ended and
military units were disbanded, second-hand shops were full of clarinets,
trumpets, trombones, tubas and drums, which could be bought by even the
poorest negroes. For the black man, becoming a musician was one of the
few possible escapes from poverty and heavy physical labour.
Before the birth of jazz music, there were thus two musical traditions
in New Orleans. One was white, based on musical training in the European
tradition. The other was black, based on an African aural tradition (see
Sidran 1981).
Non-creole proletarian blacks played their instruments by ear. Instead
of reading music, they played directly. They faked and improvised, and
used the rhythms and scales they had brought from Africa.
Before the start of Jim Crow legislation, coloured Creoles took up a
position in between white and black music, but closer to the European
musical tradition. However, after the Supreme Court¹s ruling in the
Plessy vs. Ferguson case in 1896, which was to be the start of racial
segregation, coloured Creoles were looked upon as black, and began to
suffer the social and economic effects of segregation. One of the
results was that they began to mix with black musicians in the
entertainment business.
The mutual influence of Creole musicians and proletarian black musicians
led to the birth of jazz. The Creole¹s executional sophistication and
theoretical knowledge of European music, the black musician¹s practical
creativity and emotional intensity, and, last but not least, the shared
rhythmical roots of blacks and Creoles, gave rise to the music of one
suppressed class of coloured musicians.
Jazz was born. The music was soon imitated and adopted by white
musicians. Thus the Original Dixieland Jass Band, which in 1917 made the
first jazz record, was all white. As such, it was presentable in white
society and made a lot of money, which, for a long time to come, could
not be said of black jazz.
Rhythm, excitement, sex, dancing and music
Whites looked upon early jazz, and certainly black jazz, as associated
with licentious behaviour. Jazz music was looked upon as whorehouse
music. And it is true that early jazz flourished especially in
Storyville, the redlight district of New Orleans. Right from the birth
of jazz, there is this close association of rhythm, excitement, sex,
dancing and music that is found in the various meanings of the word JAZZ
listed in the OED.
A French etymon for JAZZ
In New Orleans, as also in some coastal areas of Africa and on some
islands on the trade route from Africa to Louisiana, many coloured
people spoke a creolised French. If no English origin appears to be
available for the American word JAZZ, a French source would seem quite
likely in view of the origin of jazz music in New Orleans, and in view
of its Creole and African roots.
If there is a French etymon for JAZZ, it should satisfy the following
criteria:
a. the French word can be aptly used to refer to the sense of
accelerating the rhythm of the music without actually
speeding the music up. This seeming acceleration is so crucially
characteristic of jazz - and of the African strands
of its origin (see Lafcadio Hearn (1890) p.220) - that a word referring
to it would be a suitable label for the music. b. the French word can be
aptly used to the sexual pursuit stylised in the traditional African
dance to the African
strands in the origin of this type of rhythmical music. (Again, see
Lafcadio Hearn (1890) p.220, where the music
and the dancing in the French West Indies are described. Hearn also
refers to a source dating from 1722, in
which the exciting, rhythmical music and overtly sexual motions in
dancing to it, are described by a French priest). c. the French word can
be used for sexual intercourse. d. the French word must be phonetically
relatable to JAZZ, or its earlier form JASS.
A French word that meets all these requirements is CHASSE.
CHASSE and JAZZ in French dictionaries
The Grand Larousse de la Langua Française (1971) derives CHASSER from
Classical Latin CAPTARE. It provides two related meanings: Œchercher à
prendre¹ and Œpousser devant soi, obliger à avancer... faire avancer
rapidement.¹ Clearly, the first can be related to the sexual
connotation, and the second to the rhythmical connotation of the word
JASS as it was used in New Orleans round 1900.
The noun CHASSE is defined (under II.1) as follows: ŒAction de
poursuivre une personne ou un animal en vu de s¹en emparer.¹ Among the
examples given, are: Faire la chasse au mari; Faire la chasse à une
femme.
Le Robert, Dictionnaire de la langue française (1985), agrees with the
Grand Larousse almost verbatim, but adds: ŒÊTRE EN CHASSE, en chaleur
(se dit de la femelle de certains animaux à l¹époque où elle recherche
le mâle).¹
Under JAZZ, both dictionaries state that the origin of the word is
obscure, and that it used to be written as JASS. Le Robert, in addition,
provides Œ... un sens dialectal (région de la Nouvelle-Orléans) obscène
<<coïter.¹
Conclusion
I think I have provided the required justification to replace the phrase
Œ[Origin unknown: see quots. for some of the many suggested derivations.
Cf. *JAZZBO],¹ which we still find in the second edition of the OED, by
the phrase Œ[creolised F. chasse]¹ in the next edition.
My conclusion that French CHASSE is the etymon of JAZZ, implies that I
do not accept that the proper name JAZZBO (allegedly an early itinerant
Negro player along the Mississippi) may have given rise to the noun
and/or verb JAZZ. This is one of the suggestions found in an entry in
the 1976 supplement to the OED. It rather seems the other way about:
JAZZBO might well be a compound of JAZZ and BEAU, both of French origin.
I look upon various additional meanings of JAZZ, such as nonsense,
anything unpleasant or disagreeable, grotesque, riotous and fantastic,
as having developed in the wake of negative white reactions to jazz
music since it started spreading in 1917. It is interesting to see that
the gradual change in appreciation of jazz music coincides with the
development of less negative meanings, such as lively, sophisticated,
unconventional, which are listed in the 1976, but not in the 1933
supplement to the OED.
References
Dictionaries
A Supplement to the Oxford English Dictionary (1976), ed. by R. W.
Burchfield, Vol. II, H - N. Oxford: Clarendon Press. The Oxford English
Dictionary (1989), ed. by J. A. Simpson and E. S. C. Weiner, Oxford:
Clarendon Press (2nd ed.) Grand Larousse de la langue française
(1971-8), 6 vols., Paris: Librairie Larousse. Le Grand Robert de la
langue française (1985), 9 vols., Paris: Le Robert (2nd ed.)
Other works
Hearn, Lafcadio (1890) Two Years in the French West Indies, New
York/Oxford: Harper & Brothers (repr. 1923). Sidran, Ben (1981) Black
Talk, New York: Da Capo Press.
Donna Richoux
I copied out the Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang
citation from 1896 for "jaser" in this post:
Message-ID: <1f1v09n.3e6zxq14onv4hN%tr...@euronet.nl>
They don't have anything earlier for "jazz," except for one odd use in a
letter from Lord Palmerston in 1831 about somebody "jazzing and telling
stories" which has an unclear meaning.
Most of the other uses of "jazz' start at 1917 or 1918, except for some
by a 1913 writer which mean "spirit."
I suppose you already know about the jizz-jizm-jism-gism-etc group
meaning semen and/or spirit?
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Michael West
"howard richler" <hric...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:feb755de.03072...@posting.google.com...
It's very possible indeed, and as one who has read
widely on jazz history, I think it is the most convincing
of all the suggested derivations. It is not the most often
heard hypothesis; usually the one offered first is the
one that connect "jazz" to words like jasm, jism, spasm,
and so forth on the basis of the music's association with
New Orleans brothels.
--
Michael West
Melbourne, Australia
Charles Riggs
wrote:
>The French verb "jaser" means "to gossip back and forth." Is it
>possible that the word "jazz" came from the French "jaser" as French
>was spoken in New Orleans in Creole or the Acadian (Cajun) of the
>early settlers.
A number of speculations have been made as to the origins of the word
"jazz". This one, quoted in the OED:
"The word ‘Jass’ was a verb of the negro patois meaning ‘to excite’
with an erotic and rhythmic connotation. Later becoming pronounced
‘Jazz’, it was used attributively to describe bands which by the
intensity of their rhythm produced excitement."
together with:
"1917 Sun (N.Y.) 5 Aug. iii. 3/6 Variously spelled Jas, Jass, Jaz,
Jazz, Jasz and Jascz. The word is African in origin. It is common on
the Gold Coast of Africa and in the hinterland of Cape Coast Castle."
makes best sense, to me.
benlizross
Perhaps, but one would like to see the "negro patois" more precisely
defined in time and space, not to mention something more solid about
which language of the "Gold Coast" is supposed to have such a word.
Ross Clark
Charles Riggs
That is baloney, and I disagree it is the one most often offered. I
assume you're just trying to stir up trouble, for I don't believe you
are this ignorant.
Michael West
> Perhaps, but one would like to see the "negro patois" more precisely
> defined in time and space, not to mention something more solid about
> which language of the "Gold Coast" is supposed to have such a word.
>
> Ross Clark
Also the "rhythm produced excitement" bit sounds suspect.
Marching bands do that, ragtime does that, European classical
music does that. The "jaser" theory feels right to me because
if you listen to the earliest recorded jazz, what distinguishes
it is not just syncopated rhythm but the improvised conversational
interplay between the lead instruments. Anyone could play rhythm,
but an ensemble that could play spontaneous melody, harmony and
counterpoint that all sounded good together was a relatively
rare thing. Still is. It's very easy for me to imagine the few
musicians who could play it referring to this style of music by
alluding to its most distinguishing feature.
Peter T. Daniels
And the New York Sun wasn't exactly a highbrow journal ...
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
howard richler
> benlizross wrote:
> >
> > Charles Riggs wrote:
> > >
> > > On 29 Jul 2003 07:00:16 -0700, hric...@sympatico.ca (howard richler)
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >The French verb "jaser" means "to gossip back and forth." Is it
> > > >possible that the word "jazz" came from the French "jaser" as French
> > > >was spoken in New Orleans in Creole or the Acadian (Cajun) of the
> > > >early settlers.
> > >
> > > A number of speculations have been made as to the origins of the word
> > > "jazz". This one, quoted in the OED:
> > >
> > > with an erotic and rhythmic connotation. Later becoming pronounced
> > > intensity of their rhythm produced excitement."
> > >
> > > together with:
> > >
> > > "1917 Sun (N.Y.) 5 Aug. iii. 3/6 Variously spelled Jas, Jass, Jaz,
> > > Jazz, Jasz and Jascz. The word is African in origin. It is common on
> > > the Gold Coast of Africa and in the hinterland of Cape Coast Castle."
> > >
> > > makes best sense, to me.
> >
> > Perhaps, but one would like to see the "negro patois" more precisely
> > defined in time and space, not to mention something more solid about
> > which language of the "Gold Coast" is supposed to have such a word.
>
> And the New York Sun wasn't exactly a highbrow journal ...
If the origin of "jazz" is from French and not out of Africa, how can
we account for the Mandingo word "jasi" which means "to act out of
the ordinary"?
I think it is most likely that this word, or other words in other
African languages, influenced the words "jazz"( and alternate English
spellings) and "jaser" in French. As to my original question on what
came first "jazz" or "jaser," I suppose this is unanswerable because
the word may have been originally spoken in a pidgin that led to these
two words.
R F
> If the origin of "jazz" is from French and not out of Africa, how can
> we account for the Mandingo word "jasi" which means "to act out of
> the ordinary"?
Why should we have to account for it? "To act out of the ordinary" is
not so close to any obvious feature of early jazz that it should cast doubt
on any etymological theory that has more evidence behind it. There are
lots of examples of coincidentally-similar words with
coincidentally-similar meanings. Now if _jasi_ had some meaning having
to do with music in particular, or if there were earlier (say,
slavery-period) uses of "jazz" or "jass" that seemed to have a
transitional meaning, you might have something.
Michael West
"howard richler" wrote:
> I think it is most likely that this word, or other words in other
> African languages, influenced the words "jazz"( and alternate English
> spellings) and "jaser" in French. As to my original question on what
> came first "jazz" or "jaser," I suppose this is unanswerable because
> the word may have been originally spoken in a pidgin that led to these
> two words.
Speculation is rampant. Here is something that
claims to be a fact, and which if true seems to
support the "jaser" hypothesis:
"There is a single 1831 use by Lord Palmerston
referring to Talleyrand jazzing, or chattering
and telling stories. This is certainly a nonce variation
on the French jaser and is unconnected with the later
name for the musical style."
(More at http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorj.htm)
There is a non sequitur in that last sentence.
It well may be a nonce variation, but how can
we assume that it ("jaser") is unconnected? Or
does the author mean only that Palmerston's
usage was unconnected to jazz music -- which
seems a perfectly reasonable assumption.
bad24
The thing to do would have been to ask the early jazz musicians or the
people living in New Orleans at that time what the term "jazz" meant.
(Of course, they still might not have known). Another source of clues
would be publications and journals of the time that might have used
the word "jazz". I gather from a post later in this thread that the
oldest citation is 1917. Is that true?
--- bad24
Michael West
>
> The thing to do would have been to ask the early jazz musicians or the
> people living in New Orleans at that time what the term "jazz" meant.
Unfortunately this doesn't work very
well, since old jazz musicians are not, as a
group, reliable historians. In fact, it leads
to the current state of affairs.
Ferd "Jelly Roll" Morton, for example, claimed
to have invented not only the music, but the name
for it. Nobody believes him.
The word "jazz" clearly meant different things to
different people at different times.
The difficulty as I see it is in sorting out which came
first.
Charles Riggs
<mbw...@removebigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps, but one would like to see the "negro patois" more precisely
>> defined in time and space, not to mention something more solid about
>> which language of the "Gold Coast" is supposed to have such a word.
>>
>> Ross Clark
>
>Also the "rhythm produced excitement" bit sounds suspect.
>Marching bands do that, ragtime does that, European classical
>music does that. The "jaser" theory feels right to me because
>if you listen to the earliest recorded jazz, what distinguishes
>it is not just syncopated rhythm but the improvised conversational
>interplay between the lead instruments.
Good grief. It was uneducated Blacks who popularized the word, not
musicologists. Do you reckon they applied the above analysis,
considering marching bands, ragtime, classical music, and all that,
before saying, "Hey, man, let's play some jazz"? No, they used a word
already familiar to them; an African word.
Your reasoning isn't as sharp as I remember it being. Are you on the
sauce?
benlizross
I tend to agree that an argument based on a fairly abstract musical
analysis is not very convincing. Styles of popular music are not
typically named this way. Also, the collateral meanings (aside from the
music and the type of dancing associated with it) most often mentioned
in early sources are (i) excitement; (ii) sex. Nothing to do with
conversational interplay in a musical sense.
Ross Clark
benlizross
Actually Palmerston's usage seems to connect with OED's sense 3:
"Meaningless or empty talk, nonsense,...", which they have only from
1918. (Was it also Palmerston who had the first recorded instance of
"kids" = "children"?) The time gap is a worry, but could it be that an
independent earlier development from "jaser" (the 1918 source is
something called "Dialect Notes" which ascribes the term to "college
students") was later associated with the musical term?
Ross Clark
benlizross
OED Online now has a couple of earlier occurrences: A 1909 phonograph
record ("One lady asked me if I danced the jazz") and a 1913 article in
the San Francisco Bulletin.
Incidentally, Dauzat/Robert says that jaser goes back to the 12th
century, so there is no question of which appears first.
Ross Clark
Michael West
"benlizross" <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote :
> I tend to agree that an argument based on a fairly abstract musical
> analysis is not very convincing. Styles of popular music are not
> typically named this way. Also, the collateral meanings (aside from the
> music and the type of dancing associated with it) most often mentioned
> in early sources are (i) excitement; (ii) sex. Nothing to do with
> conversational interplay in a musical sense.
It is true that I am looking at it from the musicians'
perspective. Whether it's "convincing" or not may depend
on whether you're a musician or not.
All of these associations make sense to me. Whether or
not we'll ever know the exact sequence of associations
that led to what became the accepted name for the music --
who knows?
--
Michael West
Resident in Melbourne, Australia
after a half-century in the US.
Michael West
> > "There is a single 1831 use by Lord Palmerston
> > referring to Talleyrand jazzing, or chattering
> > and telling stories. This is certainly a nonce variation
> > on the French jaser and is unconnected with the later
> > name for the musical style."
> Actually Palmerston's usage seems to connect with OED's sense 3:
> "Meaningless or empty talk, nonsense,...", which they have only from
> 1918.
No. Jazz lore is full of tropes about "telling stories" and
"expressing yourself." The music is based on the idea of
individual expression within a collective framework.
Nothing is more fundamental to the making of jazz.
--
Michael West
howard richler
Another hint that that the word "jazz" came out of Africa is that the
verb "jass" has been used for centuries in the Gold Coast (now Ghana)
to mean "excite in an erotic way." Given that "the word "jazz" was
rife with sexual connotations for much of its history, I think this
also suggests an African link.
Michael West
Most of the musicians identified as early jazz players
were not only several generations out of Africa, but
also several generations out of servitude. Whether African
words and customs were still a very important part of their
lives is something that requires proof.
Donna Richoux
>
> Actually Palmerston's usage seems to connect with OED's sense 3:
> "Meaningless or empty talk, nonsense,...", which they have only from
> 1918. (Was it also Palmerston who had the first recorded instance of
> "kids" = "children"?)
No. RHHDAS has citations going steadily back to 1618. Palmerston was
1784-1865. See "Re: Children / kids?" thread currently going on in
a.u.e.
benlizross
>
> Ross wrote:
>
> > > "There is a single 1831 use by Lord Palmerston
> > > referring to Talleyrand jazzing, or chattering
> > > and telling stories. This is certainly a nonce variation
> > > on the French jaser and is unconnected with the later
> > > name for the musical style."
>
> > Actually Palmerston's usage seems to connect with OED's sense 3:
> > "Meaningless or empty talk, nonsense,...", which they have only from
> > 1918.
>
> No.
No what?
Jazz lore is full of tropes about "telling stories" and
> "expressing yourself." The music is based on the idea of
> individual expression within a collective framework.
> Nothing is more fundamental to the making of jazz.
> --
This (much later) jazz lore emphasizes authenticity and meaningfulness,
just the opposite of the gloss I quoted above. What I am suggesting is
that there could have been an independent non-musical sense derived from
"jaser", which later became associated with the musical term (whatever
the origin of the later). Such a thing would hardly be unprecedented in
etymology.
Ross Clark
benlizross
Hm. Is there one from Palmerston among them? IIRC it was from a journal
or private letter, ca.1830. It could easily have been 20 years ago that
I looked this up, when the legitimacy of this usage was being argued
about. I'm sure I didn't look in RHHDAS (which I can only partly guess
the meaning of). It may be that the earlier uses are recent discoveries,
or maybe the later one just stuck in my mind.
Ross Clark
benlizross
Can you identify an actual language here, or are you just paraphrasing
the New York Sun (1917)?
Ross Clark
benlizross
part", just that one word might have survived. That this has happened
was demonstrated at least as early as Lorenzo Dow Turner's work on
Gullah (1940).
Ross Clark
R F
One thing that's reasonably clear is that jazz originated in New
Orleans. Are there any other words known to be of African origin that
were associated particularly with New Orleans black speakers of the
late 19th and early 20th century?
Donna Richoux
> Donna Richoux wrote:
> >
> > benlizross <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Actually Palmerston's usage seems to connect with OED's sense 3:
> > > "Meaningless or empty talk, nonsense,...", which they have only from
> > > 1918. (Was it also Palmerston who had the first recorded instance of
> > > "kids" = "children"?)
> >
> > No. RHHDAS has citations going steadily back to 1618. Palmerston was
> > 1784-1865. See "Re: Children / kids?" thread currently going on in
> > a.u.e.
> >
> > --
> > Best -- Donna Richoux
>
> Hm. Is there one from Palmerston among them?
No, sorry.
>IIRC it was from a journal
> or private letter, ca.1830. It could easily have been 20 years ago that
> I looked this up, when the legitimacy of this usage was being argued
> about.
I don't own any form of the OED -- it might be in one of them.
>I'm sure I didn't look in RHHDAS (which I can only partly guess
> the meaning of).
Random House Historical Dictarionary of American Slang.
>It may be that the earlier uses are recent discoveries,
> or maybe the later one just stuck in my mind.
benlizross
Most of Turner's words are specific to Gullah, but as I recall there
were a few that had wide currency in the South. The ones that come to
mind are goober (peanut), tote (carry) and pojo (heron). About NO
specifically I don't know, but there surely must be dialect studies of
local speech, both English and French.
Ross Clark
bad24
I'm surprised there aren't earlier references in New Orleans
publications or private writings. There may very well be; perhaps
nobody has noticed them.
--- bad24
benlizross
Yes, here it is, in the original OED. Never could keep my English Lords
straight. Lord *Shaftesbury*, Journal, 1841: Passed a few days happily
with my wife and kids. Even there they have citations back to 1599.
I think I used this one in the discussion at the time, partly because it
sounded so modern, and partly because the complainers, as so often
happens, identified usages they didn't like as not only new but
"American". Having it used by a Lord more than a century earlier seemed
like a good stopper.
Ross Clark
Raymond S. Wise
news:88f68220.03073...@posting.google.com...
As for private writings, I believe the editors of the OED2 and other
lexicographers will cite private writings, such as diaries and private
letters, only if they were published at one time. So a potential first usage
of a given word found in a private diary would not make it into the OED2.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Charles Riggs
<mbw...@removebigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
>"benlizross" <benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote :
>> I tend to agree that an argument based on a fairly abstract musical
>> analysis is not very convincing. Styles of popular music are not
>> typically named this way. Also, the collateral meanings (aside from the
>> music and the type of dancing associated with it) most often mentioned
>> in early sources are (i) excitement; (ii) sex. Nothing to do with
>> conversational interplay in a musical sense.
>
>
>It is true that I am looking at it from the musicians'
>perspective. Whether it's "convincing" or not may depend
>on whether you're a musician or not.
Have any CDs out, do you?
>All of these associations make sense to me. Whether or
>not we'll ever know the exact sequence of associations
>that led to what became the accepted name for the music --
>who knows?
Me.
Anyway, it had nothing to do with associations or sequences of
associations. As I wrote before, when quoting the OED:
"The word ‘Jass’ was a verb of the negro patois meaning ‘to excite’
with an erotic and rhythmic connotation. Later becoming pronounced
‘Jazz’, it was used attributively to describe bands which by the
intensity of their rhythm produced excitement."
"1917 Sun (N.Y.) 5 Aug. iii. 3/6 Variously spelled Jas, Jass, Jaz,
Jazz, Jasz and Jascz. The word is African in origin. It is common on
the Gold Coast of Africa and in the hinterland of Cape Coast Castle."
This isn't rocketry science, Mr West.
Charles Riggs
benlizross
No, it seems to be from a much more primitive period. Here's the hard
part: identify precisely what OED means by "the negro patois", and name
an actual language of Ghana that has such a word.
Ross Clark
benlizross
Hmmm?
Michael West
"Charles Riggs" <chr...@aircom.net> wrote in message
news:kr4kivg9st2sup7cr...@4ax.com...
> >It is true that I am looking at it from the musicians'
> >perspective. Whether it's "convincing" or not may depend
> >on whether you're a musician or not.
>
> Have any CDs out, do you?
Not lately, no. But I am a musician and I have
spent a good deal of my life hanging learning
about jazz, listening to jazz, playing jazz, and
hanging out with myuzos.
>
> Anyway, it had nothing to do with associations or sequences of
> associations. As I wrote before, when quoting the OED:
>
> "The word ‘Jass’ was a verb of the negro patois meaning ‘to excite’
> with an erotic and rhythmic connotation. Later becoming pronounced
> ‘Jazz’, it was used attributively to describe bands which by the
> intensity of their rhythm produced excitement."
>
> "1917 Sun (N.Y.) 5 Aug. iii. 3/6 Variously spelled Jas, Jass, Jaz,
> Jazz, Jasz and Jascz. The word is African in origin. It is common on
> the Gold Coast of Africa and in the hinterland of Cape Coast Castle."
>
> This isn't rocketry science, Mr West.
Well it turns out, if I understand what I read
in the papers, that rocket science isn't exactly
rocket science either. ("Jeez! Look at the size
of that hole! Do you think? ....nah!)
However if you're going to accept that unverified
gibberish from the 1917 New York Sun, there's a
guy with some swampland to sell looking for you.
And your cite from the OED is a quote from a
musician made in 1935. Hey, do you need a bridge
to get back and forth over that swampland?
--
MW
Charles Riggs
wrote:
No, "Hmm", if you want to be kosher about the word.
benlizross
>
> On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 20:25:17 +1200, benlizross <benl...@ihug.co.nz>
> wrote:
>
> >Charles Riggs wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 08:34:29 +1200, benlizross <benl...@ihug.co.nz>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Hm.
> >>
> >> Hmm.
> >
> >Hmmm?
>
> No, "Hmm", if you want to be kosher about the word.
Hnh!
Brian M. Scott
<benl...@ihug.co.nz> wrote:
>Charles Riggs wrote:
>> On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 20:25:17 +1200, benlizross <benl...@ihug.co.nz>
>> wrote:
>> >Charles Riggs wrote:
>> >> On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 08:34:29 +1200, benlizross <benl...@ihug.co.nz>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >Hm.
>> >> Hmm.
>> >Hmmm?
>> No, "Hmm", if you want to be kosher about the word.
>Hnh!
Houyhnhnms!
Brian
Richard Maurer
the Janissary Hypothesis.
Janissary bands were European players, playing
music and instruments with an Ottoman influence.
I once saw an impressive essay on the subject,
claiming a smooth transition musically from
Janissary to Jazz.
As far as the word, notice that if you leave out the
right sounds (as might happen over a few hundred years
of oral tradition) you can get "jass", which was mentioned
as an early written form of "jazz".
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Arnold Zwicky
<rcpb1_...@yahoo.com> reports:
>This thread would not be complete without mentioning
>the Janissary Hypothesis.
>Janissary bands were European players, playing
>music and instruments with an Ottoman influence.
>I once saw an impressive essay on the subject,
>claiming a smooth transition musically from
>Janissary to Jazz.
for those of us who collect delicious items like this, it would be
really nice if you could supply an actual citation here. it would
provide some laughs for the folks on the American Dialect Society
mailing list.
>As far as the word, notice that if you leave out the
>right sounds (as might happen over a few hundred years
>of oral tradition) you can get "jass", which was mentioned
>as an early written form of "jazz".
or you could start from "jackass", referring to an animal noted for
its loud and rhythmic braying, as captured in grofe's Grand Canyon
Suite.
arnold
David Thomas
M. Scott) writes:
This is starting to sound like a contest between recruits for playing
Frankenstein's monster...
- Vae
Sleep, Fate, Death, and I sat one sunday down at tea.
Fate offered up his Ziggy mug before I poured,
Sleep yawned in his PJs, seeming mildly bored,
And Death politely asked, "Another pirouline?"
Michael West
"Richard Maurer" <rcpb1_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:01c358de$f3500ec0$0409510c@default...
> This thread would not be complete without mentioning
> the Janissary Hypothesis.
>
> Janissary bands were European players, playing
> music and instruments with an Ottoman influence.
>
> I once saw an impressive essay on the subject,
> claiming a smooth transition musically from
> Janissary to Jazz.
>
> As far as the word, notice that if you leave out the
> right sounds (as might happen over a few hundred years
> of oral tradition) you can get "jass", which was mentioned
> as an early written form of "jazz".
Too complicated. Don't you see that this has the virtue
of simplicity and undeniable truth:
"Jazz -- like so many things -- comes from jism."
--
Michael West
Melbourne, Australia
(In the shadow of the You-Yangs)