brust; gypsy, brokendown palace, the coachman
Scott Schwartz
plays a pivotal role. That's an interesting connection. Does it show
up elsewhere that I haven't noticed?
Miska, the coachman, was the "he" that Devera said told her to visit
Fenario.
Joel Rosenberg
>Scott Schwartz (schw...@galapagos.cse.psu.edu) wrote:
>: Miska, the coachman, was the "he" that Devera said told her to visit
>: Fenario.
>"'been aroud this whole country . . . but I never yet found Fenario."
> -- bob dylan, "pretty peggy-o"
>any connection, I (ingenuously) wonder?
Well, of course there is. Steve does some things accidentally, I'm sure, but
I can't imagine any of his iconography is ever random. (And do let's remember
that Bobby D didn't write that line, either, okay?)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Rosenberg | jo...@winternet.com | http://www.winternet.com/~joelr
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I marvel at the resilience of the Jewish people.
Their best characteristic is their desire to remember.
No other people has such an obsession with memory.
-- Elie Wiesel
Daniel S Goodman
Peggy-o, another version, or another folksong with which it's swapped verses.
I do know that Brokedown Palace is a Grateful Dead reference. And that
the book itself is a Marxist allegory.
Dan Goodman d...@maroon.tc.umn.edu
Graydon
: In both Gypsy and Brokendown Palace a coachman who drinks too much
: plays a pivotal role. That's an interesting connection. Does it show
: up elsewhere that I haven't noticed?
: Miska, the coachman, was the "he" that Devera said told her to visit
: Fenario.
Coachmen are standard Hungarian folktale psychopomp characters.
--
saun...@qlink.queensu.ca | Monete me si non anglice loquobar.
Monty Ashley
>Miska, the coachman, was the "he" that Devera said told her to visit
>Fenario.
Sure, I'll buy that. I'll buy anything.
Or maybe someone just said "You hadda be there!" to her one too many times.
-Monty
--
"So long, suckers! Next time you Monty Ashley
get bored with your lives, give mas...@netcom.com
me a call - and I'll come 'round
and kill you!" -Lord Flashheart
J. A. McNamara
: Miska, the coachman, was the "he" that Devera said told her to visit
: Fenario.
"'been aroud this whole country . . . but I never yet found Fenario."
-- bob dylan, "pretty peggy-o"
any connection, I (ingenuously) wonder?
(the song btw is on his 1st Lp & seems to have "bonny barbry-o" somewhere
in its ancestry. cool tune. thanks for reminding me.)
--
----------------------------------------- ----------------
b o b b y t h e g i a n t s n a i l J. A. McNamara
"You no longer exist, Franz Bubendorf." gr...@netaxs.com
----------------------------------------- ----------------
"There is not a single thing on Earth that oblivion
does not erase or memory change." -- J. L. Borges
P Nielsen Hayden
d...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Daniel S Goodman) wrote:
>I'm not sure whether Brust got Fenario from Bob Dylan's version of Pretty
>Peggy-o, another version, or another folksong with which it's swapped verses.
>
>I do know that Brokedown Palace is a Grateful Dead reference. And that
>the book itself is a Marxist allegory.
Steve grew up with all kindsa folk music, but I'm fairly sure the name fenario
owes more to "Dire Wolf" on WORKINGMAN'S DEAD than to anything else.
Many of Steve's books feature Dead references ("Nilknarf's Tower", etc), but
BROKEDOWN PALACE has the most, I suspect, starting of course with the title.
Somewhere Steve has a copy of the book signed by all the band members.
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@tor.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Jacob C Kesinger
>And that the book itself is a Marxist allegory.
It is? Could you be more specific, please?
==Jake ``wouldn't know an allegory if it bit me'' K.
Fred A Levy-Haskell
>In article <4df38e$j...@maroon.tc.umn.edu>,
> d...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Daniel S Goodman) wrote:
>>I'm not sure whether Brust got Fenario from Bob Dylan's version of Pretty
>>Peggy-o, another version, or another folksong with which it's swapped verses.
>>
>>I do know that Brokedown Palace is a Grateful Dead reference. And that
>>the book itself is a Marxist allegory.
>Steve grew up with all kindsa folk music, but I'm fairly sure the name fenario
>owes more to "Dire Wolf" on WORKINGMAN'S DEAD than to anything else.
Well, hmmmm. Never thought of it that way, Patrick. Don't forget that the
Dead do (well, did... *sigh*) a version of "Fenario" as well.... But you
could be right.
>Many of Steve's books feature Dead references ("Nilknarf's Tower", etc), but
>BROKEDOWN PALACE has the most, I suspect, starting of course with the title.
>Somewhere Steve has a copy of the book signed by all the band members.
Yup. Impressive.
--
Fred A. Levy Haskell | "My will is strong but my won't is weak."
fa...@maroon.tc.umn.edu | -- Cole Porter
Daniel S Goodman
Jacob C Kesinger <n914...@rowlf.cc.wwu.edu> wrote:
>d...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Daniel S Goodman) writes:
>
>
> ==Jake ``wouldn't know an allegory if it bit me'' K.
The old, dying structure/organism giving birth to the new isn't
_necessarily_ Marxist. But knowing that Steve Brust's parents were
highly active Trotskyists (not the same as Trotskyites -- there are
doctrinal differences), I had suspicions.
Dan Goodman d...@maroon.tc.umn.edu
Will Shetterly
Goodman) wrote:
> In article <shetterl-200...@dialup-4-39.gw.umn.edu>,
> Will Shetterly <shet...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
> >In article <4dr292$4...@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, d...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Daniel S
> >Goodman) wrote:
> >
> >> Will Shetterly, your reading skills need improvement! I agree that
> >> suspcions shouldn't be expressed as certainty -- but you managed not to
> >> read the sentence where I said I had ASKED THE AUTHOR.
> >
> >Sure. But that doesn't mean you understood the author, nor does it mean
> >that the author was right. You think people always create what they said
> >they created? I don't. Did Steve tell you that he set out to write a
> >Marxist allegory? I doubt that; Steve says he tries to explore questions
> >in his fiction, and not advance answers. Did Steve say that after he wrote
> >it, he decided it was a Marxist allegory? I could believe that. Or he
> >might've decided that it could be interpreted as a Marxist allegory as
> >well as a number of other things, or he might've simply decided that if
> >you wanted to see it as a Marxist allegory, then it's a Marxist allegory
> >for you. I'll have to ask him the next time I see him. But is it a Marxist
> >allegory? My objection still stands: it's couched in monarchist imagery.
> >It may be allegorical in that the old gives way to the new, but that's
> >hardly an exclusively Marxist notion.
> I asked Steve Brust if Brokedown Palace was a Marxist allegory. He said
> it was. Now: 1) Apparently, you think that writing an allegory and
> exploring questions without advancing answers are incompatible. By what
> logical steps have you reached this conclusion, and from what premises?
> 2) I didn't ask "Can it be interpreted as a Marxist allegory?" It's
> possible that's the question Steve Brust heard, but I don't think so. It
> is just barely possibly that he considered my mind subtle enough that I
> would realize that's what he meant, but.... 3) WHY CAN'T A MARXIST
> ALLEGORY BE "couched in monarchist imagery"? Haven't there been
> Christian allegories which used pagan imagery?
1. I do not.
2. I wasn't there for your conversation. All I can say is that I've been
in a writer's group with him for something like fifteen years now, and
it'd surprise me to hear that he thought Brokedown Palace was a Marxist
allegory. I am, of course, prepared to be surprised. Despite my
scepticism, you may be right. However, I would be reluctant to call it a
Marxist allegory; I think that does it a considerable disservice. If it's
a Marxist allegory, it's that in addition to many other things, including
a good story with interesting characters, an homage to the Grateful Dead,
a chance for him to look at the Easterners in his favorite fantasy
setting, etc., etc. It may be that I hear "allegory" as being a short step
from "polemic," and Steve doesn't write polemics. If I've been
over-sensitive to what you said, I apologize.
3. Yes, to the latter, because all religious systems have points in
common, usually involving helping others, being honest, etc. But communism
and monarchism are at odds; the only way to write a Marxist allegory using
monarchist imagery would involve the explicit overthrow of the hereditary
rulers and redistributing wealth and power, and as soon as it's explicit,
you're no longer writing allegory. Further, I suspect Steve would tell you
(though I might be wrong) that you cannot leapfrog from monarchism to
communism without going through capitalism. I do know that Steve's sense
of history involves much more predeterminism than mine.
--
Will Shetterly * shet...@maroon.tc.umn.edu
"Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all"
--Adam Smith, _The Wealth of Nations_
Will Shetterly
Goodman) wrote:
Suspicions shouldn't be expressed as certainty. I personally have my
doubts about whether you can set up a Marxist allegory with monarchist
imagery. The author and the work can be very different things.
Daniel S Goodman
Will Shetterly <shet...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>In article <4ds1nl$q...@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, d...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Daniel S
>Goodman) wrote:
>> I asked Steve Brust if Brokedown Palace was a Marxist allegory. He said
>> it was. Now: 1) Apparently, you think that writing an allegory and
>> exploring questions without advancing answers are incompatible. By what
>> logical steps have you reached this conclusion, and from what premises?
>> 2) I didn't ask "Can it be interpreted as a Marxist allegory?" It's
>> possible that's the question Steve Brust heard, but I don't think so. It
>> is just barely possibly that he considered my mind subtle enough that I
>> would realize that's what he meant, but.... 3) WHY CAN'T A MARXIST
>> ALLEGORY BE "couched in monarchist imagery"? Haven't there been
>> Christian allegories which used pagan imagery?
>
>1. I do not.
>2. I wasn't there for your conversation. All I can say is that I've been
>in a writer's group with him for something like fifteen years now, and
>it'd surprise me to hear that he thought Brokedown Palace was a Marxist
>allegory. I am, of course, prepared to be surprised. Despite my
>scepticism, you may be right. However, I would be reluctant to call it a
>Marxist allegory; I think that does it a considerable disservice. If it's
>a Marxist allegory, it's that in addition to many other things, including
>a good story with interesting characters, an homage to the Grateful Dead,
>a chance for him to look at the Easterners in his favorite fantasy
>setting, etc., etc. It may be that I hear "allegory" as being a short step
>from "polemic," and Steve doesn't write polemics. If I've been
>over-sensitive to what you said, I apologize.
"allegory" and "polemic". The Divine Comedy is an allegory; it is
nowhere near being a polemic. "Atlas Shrugged" isn't allegorical, but
it's a polemic. c) What's so bad about polemics? William Blake wrote
more than a few. So did D. H. Lawrence.
>3. Yes, to the latter, because all religious systems have points in
>common, usually involving helping others, being honest, etc. But communism
>and monarchism are at odds; the only way to write a Marxist allegory using
>monarchist imagery would involve the explicit overthrow of the hereditary
>rulers and redistributing wealth and power, and as soon as it's explicit,
>you're no longer writing allegory. Further, I suspect Steve would tell you
>(though I might be wrong) that you cannot leapfrog from monarchism to
>communism without going through capitalism. I do know that Steve's sense
>of history involves much more predeterminism than mine.
a) Viewing the head of state as a god is compatible with Roman paganism
and Shinto, but not with Judaism, Christianity, or Islam. I've read that
the ancient Mesopotamians believed humans were created as labor-saving
devices. Gnostics believe that humans, along with the rest of the
material universe, were created by mistake. There are other very large
differences among religions. b) If I read you correctly, you're saying
that a Marxist allegory has to be about the transition to communism.
Take a look at George Orwell's "Animal Farm". (Which is definitely not a
nonpolemic allegory -- but Orwell didn't do nonpolemic.)
Dan Goodman d...@maroon.tc.umn.edu
Avram Grumer
shet...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Will Shetterly) wrote:
> (though I might be wrong) that you cannot leapfrog from monarchism to
> communism without going through capitalism. I do know that Steve's sense
> of history involves much more predeterminism than mine.
The Dragarean society includes a deterministic history. Has anyone taken
a close look at the Cycle along these lines? What comes just before the
Teckla reigns (at least one of which was described as a republic)?
--
Avram Grumer | If music be the food of love,
av...@interport.net | then some of it be the twinkies
http://www.users.interport.net/~avram | of dysfunctional relationships.
Will Shetterly
Goodman) wrote:
> Will Shetterly, your reading skills need improvement! I agree that
> suspcions shouldn't be expressed as certainty -- but you managed not to
> read the sentence where I said I had ASKED THE AUTHOR.
Sure. But that doesn't mean you understood the author, nor does it mean
that the author was right. You think people always create what they said
they created? I don't. Did Steve tell you that he set out to write a
Marxist allegory? I doubt that; Steve says he tries to explore questions
in his fiction, and not advance answers. Did Steve say that after he wrote
it, he decided it was a Marxist allegory? I could believe that. Or he
might've decided that it could be interpreted as a Marxist allegory as
well as a number of other things, or he might've simply decided that if
you wanted to see it as a Marxist allegory, then it's a Marxist allegory
for you. I'll have to ask him the next time I see him. But is it a Marxist
allegory? My objection still stands: it's couched in monarchist imagery.
It may be allegorical in that the old gives way to the new, but that's
hardly an exclusively Marxist notion.
--
JaneYolen
_____________________________________________________________
Also Steve is completely able to say something about Marxism with a
straight face and be pulling your considerable leg at the same time. (Been
there, done that!)
Jane...@AOL.com
Graydon
: In article <shetterl-200...@dialup-1-81.gw.umn.edu>,
: shet...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Will Shetterly) wrote:
: > (though I might be wrong) that you cannot leapfrog from monarchism to
: > communism without going through capitalism. I do know that Steve's sense
: > of history involves much more predeterminism than mine.
: The Dragarean society includes a deterministic history. Has anyone taken
: a close look at the Cycle along these lines? What comes just before the
: Teckla reigns (at least one of which was described as a republic)?
'Orca circles, hard and lean'; since the Orca are concerned with pack
behaviour and transportation, there's an argument for them to be
capitalistic (capitalism being rather thoroughly dependent on the
transportation system) but they're not obviously 'the capitalist phase of
the Dragaeran Cycle.
Nor do I think that the Teckla Republics should be regarded as
particularly 'capitalistic'; the Orb doesn't up and vanish (it's probably
floating around the head of Monsieur Le President instead of an Emperor,
but this could well be a mostly semantic difference), the economy doesn't
change radically because they keep on going round and well, _Rome_ was a
'Republic' and they were hardly capitalists.
P Nielsen Hayden
saun...@qlink.queensu.ca (Graydon) wrote:
>'Orca circles, hard and lean'; since the Orca are concerned with pack
>behaviour and transportation, there's an argument for them to be
>capitalistic
Very true, particularly when you consider that the upcoming ORCA is,
essentially, a financial thriller set in the Dragaeran Empire.
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@tor.com : http://www.tor.com/~pnh
Avram Grumer
> 'Orca circles, hard and lean'; since the Orca are concerned with pack
> behaviour and transportation, there's an argument for them to be
> capitalistic (capitalism being rather thoroughly dependent on the
> transportation system) but they're not obviously 'the capitalist phase of
> the Dragaeran Cycle.
Hm. I'd expect the Jhereg to be the capitalists, actually. I just found
my copy of _Jhereg_, so I'll take a look at the cycle....
That's interesting. "Vallista rends and then rebuilds," right before the
Jhereg reign.
> Nor do I think that the Teckla Republics should be regarded as
> particularly 'capitalistic'; the Orb doesn't up and vanish (it's probably
> floating around the head of Monsieur Le President instead of an Emperor,
> but this could well be a mostly semantic difference), the economy doesn't
> change radically because they keep on going round and well, _Rome_ was a
> 'Republic' and they were hardly capitalists.
Actually, I was assuming that the Teckla reigns were post-capitalist
socialist, just because they're the closest thing the Dragaerans have to a
working class.
Or are they? I think some of the other houses are crafts-oriented. Don't
the Creotha run the textiles industry?
Will Shetterly
Goodman) wrote:
> a) I didn't say it was _only_ a Marxist allegory. b) I don't associate
> "allegory" and "polemic". The Divine Comedy is an allegory; it is
> nowhere near being a polemic. "Atlas Shrugged" isn't allegorical, but
> it's a polemic. c) What's so bad about polemics? William Blake wrote
> more than a few. So did D. H. Lawrence.
You mentioned "Atlas Shrugged." That's what's so bad about polemics.
Blake, bless him, wrote poetry; polemics are quite tolerable in poetry.
Poor D. H. Lawrence is a rather ham-handed writer; perhaps he does about
as well as you can hope to do if you insist on writing polemics. (I use
these examples because you do; I'm not certain I'd argue that Blake or
Lawrence were polemicists, but Rand, who managed to mangle bad philosophy
with bad fiction in such a way that some people confuse the result with an
original and powerful vision, was most certainly a polemicist.
> a) Viewing the head of state as a god is compatible with Roman paganism
> and Shinto, but not with Judaism, Christianity, or Islam.
You get around that by making the head of state God's annointed, something
Christianity and Islam do without an instant's reflection. Caliphs and
divinely appointed kings are much the same thing.
> I've read that
> the ancient Mesopotamians believed humans were created as labor-saving
> devices.
Okay, it might be touch to do a Mespopotamian allegory, but I don't think
there's much call for one just now.
> Gnostics believe that humans, along with the rest of the
> material universe, were created by mistake.
Sure. But there are Christian gnostics, as well as those of other faiths;
gnostic allegory'd be a breeze.
>b) If I read you correctly, you're saying
> that a Marxist allegory has to be about the transition to communism.
> Take a look at George Orwell's "Animal Farm". (Which is definitely not a
> nonpolemic allegory -- but Orwell didn't do nonpolemic.)
Well, an allegory about the transition to capitalism wouldn't be terribly
Marxist, would it? As for Animal Farm, I'd say it's much more about foible
and abuse of power and totalitarianism and any number of things than it is
about Marxism, but I'm willing to listen to your argument. But I should
add that I haven't read it in twenty-five years.
Will Shetterly
(Fred A Levy-Haskell) wrote:
> I forwarded this discussion to Steve, and this is what he had to say about it:
>
> At 8:00 PM 1/21/96, Steven Brust wrote:
> >A couple of other little things: 1) No, Will, society can, indeed, make the
> >leap directly from a monarchial state to a workers' state: Witness Russia in
> >1917.
Ah, good, Steve and I'll get to have another argument soon. The USSR
clearly wasn't a successful workers' state.
Fred A Levy-Haskell
At 8:00 PM 1/21/96, Steven Brust wrote:
>Thanks for passing this along. It is quite interesting. If you feel like
>telling them my opinion, it is this: The first draft of BROKEDOWN PALACE was
>a Marxist allegory, written to prove to myself that I ought not to write
>allegories. In the re-write, I backed away from the allegory. Elements of
>it are still there, but I had to let the story go it's own way. Over-all,
>Will is right, but I may well have given Dan the wrong impression in a
>conversation, for which I apologize.
>
>A couple of other little things: 1) No, Will, society can, indeed, make the
>leap directly from a monarchial state to a workers' state: Witness Russia in
>1917. 2) The "doctrinal differences" between a "Trotskyist" and a
>"Trotskyite" are precisely the same as the differences between a "Jew" and a
>"Kike."
>
>Again, thanks for passing this on.
Thought you might like to know...
P Nielsen Hayden
>In article <shetterl-200...@dialup-1-81.gw.umn.edu>,
>Will Shetterly <shet...@maroon.tc.umn.edu> wrote:
>
>>It may be that I hear "allegory" as being a short step
>>from "polemic," and Steve doesn't write polemics. If I've been
>>over-sensitive to what you said, I apologize.
>>
>[...]I don't associate
>"allegory" and "polemic". The Divine Comedy is an allegory; it is
>nowhere near being a polemic. "Atlas Shrugged" isn't allegorical, but
>it's a polemic. c) What's so bad about polemics? William Blake wrote
>more than a few. So did D. H. Lawrence.
This would seem to be a pretty good point. I don't know why Will thinks
"allegory" is any closer to "polemic" than it is to "sestina," or
to "chili-dog" for that matter.
>If I read you correctly, you're saying
>that a Marxist allegory has to be about the transition to communism.
>Take a look at George Orwell's "Animal Farm". (Which is definitely not a
>nonpolemic allegory -- but Orwell didn't do nonpolemic.)
Foosh. Orwell wrote plenty of nonpolemical works. A CLERGYMAN'S DAUGHTER.
KEEP THE ASPIDISTRA FLYING. COMING UP FOR AIR. (We will tiptoe past those
who believe that any novel is inherently polemical since it expresses a
worldview.)
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@tor.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Jo Walton
> Foosh. Orwell wrote plenty of nonpolemical works. A CLERGYMAN'S DAUGHTER.
> KEEP THE ASPIDISTRA FLYING.
Yes. And _Burmese Days_.
COMING UP FOR AIR. (We will tiptoe past those
> who believe that any novel is inherently polemical since it expresses a
> worldview.)
I hate to disagree, but I won't give you _Coming Up for Air_, that is a
politically conceived work, and rather closer to polemic than _Nineteen-
Eighty-Four_ IMO. (Consider the part about the coming nuclear conflict and
the decline of the pub, for instance.)
Incidentally, it is relevant here because it is SF - well, OK, no it isn't.
But I would argue that it has been hugely influential on Gibson and the
cyberpunk movement. In fact I remember Tom Shippey saying that he had quoted
the beginning of it to people and asked them to identify the genre and they
all said cyberpunk. That's _Coming Up For Air_ - polemical cyberpunk without
the cool technology and underlying sense of optimism :)
Incidentally I would like to recommend again Orwell's 4 volumes of Collected
Essays, Letters and Journalism. A really interesting read.
--
Jo
*****************************************
- - I kissed a kif at Kefk - -
*****************************************
Jean Lamb
its best shot, but there appears to have been problems...
The Wandering Jew
> d...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Daniel S Goodman) wrote: [snip]
> >b) If I read you correctly, you're saying that
> > a Marxist allegory has to be about the transition to communism. [snip]
>
> Well, an allegory about the transition to capitalism wouldn't be terribly
Why not? Marx and his followers believed that they could explain all of
human history, not just "our era of transition from capitalism to
communism". So why shouldn't a book about a feudal society which uses
Marx's "theory of feudalism" and happens to be allegorical be considered a
Marxist allegory?
--
Ahasuerus http://www.clark.net/pub/ahasuer/, including:
FAQs: rec.arts.sf.written, alt.fan.heinlein, alt.pulp, the Liaden Universe
Biblios: how to write SF, the Wandering Jew, miscellaneous SF
Please consider posting (as opposed to e-mailing) ID requests
Daniel S Goodman
>As for leapfrogging from monarchy to communism, Russia certainly gave it
>its best shot, but there appears to have been problems...
>
communist society -- that being the stage at which, among other things,
the state has withered away. Americans sympathetic to the Soviet Union
referred to Easter Europe as "the Socialist countries".
The only country to officially claim to have abolished the state is
Libya. This claim seems not to have been endorsed by any American or
international anarchist movement.
Dan Goodman d...@maroon.tc.umn.edu
"Workers of the world, unite for a White South Africa!"
Phil Boswell
Shetterly (shet...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) writes:
>In article <falh.82...@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, fa...@maroon.tc.umn.edu
>(Fred A Levy-Haskell) wrote:
>> >A couple of other little things: 1) No, Will, society can, indeed, make the
>> >leap directly from a monarchial state to a workers' state: Witness Russia in
>> >1917.
>clearly wasn't a successful workers' state.
Hate to spoil your fun, Will, but I can't see any mention of
"successful" in there.
Still, I'm sure you guys will find something to argue about.
Any sign of that sequel to "Witchblood"?
Phil Boswell @ Codd & Date Ltd -------------------------------------------+
1 Broadway Court, CHESHAM, Bucks HP5 1EG |
Tel: (01-494) 791-355 Fax: (01-494) 791-373 |
Email: ph...@codd-date.win-uk.net |
Stewart M. Wiener
: In article <4dtn7e$n...@knot.queensu.ca>,
: saun...@qlink.queensu.ca (Graydon) wrote:
: >'Orca circles, hard and lean'; since the Orca are concerned with pack
: >behaviour and transportation, there's an argument for them to be
: >capitalistic
: Very true, particularly when you consider that the upcoming ORCA is,
: essentially, a financial thriller set in the Dragaeran Empire.
Now that ORCA's on its way, is there a tentative date for Tor to release
DRAGON?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stewart Wiener 3L, Temple Law School, evening
s...@astro.temple.edu gainfully employed, daytime
http://astro.temple.edu/~smw/
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
> And I can't see how you'd set a story in a feudal society and do anything
> especially Marxist with it, since the Marxist ways out of the problems of
> feudalism are the same as the capitalist ways out.
I am not sure we are communicating. Sigh :( Let's see if I can put it
differently. Marx came up with a theory of "feudalism" among other things.
His theory is not universally accepted, to put it mildly. On the contrary,
there is a lively discussion under way among medievalists as to whether
one can even talk of one "feudalism" as opposed to many "feudalisms". If
I base an allegory on Marx's "theory of feudalism", why can't I call it a
"Marxist allegory"?
P.S. I am sure that Brust, with his background, knows all about the
differences between Marx and Engels wrt the "Asiatic mode of production"
and feudalism, not to mention the difference between "monarchy" (part of
the "superstructure" according to Marx) and "feudalism", etc, but, as he
isn't here to discuss the issue and as he has now clarified the original
point of contention, I am not sure it's worth our time to continue this
thread unless there is something new to debate.
Will Shetterly
Wandering Jew) wrote:
> Will Shetterly (shet...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) wrote:
> > d...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Daniel S Goodman) wrote: [snip]
> > >b) If I read you correctly, you're saying that
> > > a Marxist allegory has to be about the transition to communism. [snip]
> >
> > Well, an allegory about the transition to capitalism wouldn't be terribly
> > Marxist, would it? [snip]
>
> Why not? Marx and his followers believed that they could explain all of
> human history, not just "our era of transition from capitalism to
> communism". So why shouldn't a book about a feudal society which uses
> Marx's "theory of feudalism" and happens to be allegorical be considered a
> Marxist allegory?
I'm going to have to re-read the book if this keeps up. If I remember
correctly, we don't get the transition to capitalism either in Brokedown
Palace. If your question is more general, I don't see a way to do an
allegorical tale of the transition from feudalism to capitalism that'd
remain an allegory; it seems to me it'd have to become explicit. And I
can't see how you'd set a story in a feudal society and do anything
especially Marxist with it, since the Marxist ways out of the problems of
feudalism are the same as the capitalist ways out.
--
Will Shetterly
> P.S. I am sure that Brust, with his background, knows all about the
> differences between Marx and Engels wrt the "Asiatic mode of production"
> and feudalism, not to mention the difference between "monarchy" (part of
> the "superstructure" according to Marx) and "feudalism", etc, but, as he
> isn't here to discuss the issue and as he has now clarified the original
> point of contention, I am not sure it's worth our time to continue this
> thread unless there is something new to debate.
Then I guess there's not much point in me responding to the issues you
raised in the part of your post that I snipped. Why did you bother to post
anything more than what's above?
--
Will Shetterly * shet...@maroon.tc.umn.edu
"My country is the world and my religion is to do good."
-Thomas Paine
P Nielsen Hayden
Jo Walton <J...@kenjo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[several comments about Orwell]
You think COMING UP FOR AIR is a polemical work, and BURMESE DAYS isn't?
<boggle> Okay.
P Nielsen Hayden
s...@astro.ocis.temple.edu (Stewart M. Wiener) wrote:
>Now that ORCA's on its way, is there a tentative date for Tor to
>release DRAGON?
Absolutely. I predict that Tor will release DRAGON not much more than a
year after Steve writes it and sends it in.
At the moment, it's still a book or two away in his writing schedule.
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@tor.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Kate Nepveu
Distribution:
Avram Grumer (av...@interport.net) wrote:
: In article <4dtn7e$n...@knot.queensu.ca>, saun...@qlink.queensu.ca
: (Graydon) wrote:
: > 'Orca circles, hard and lean'; since the Orca are concerned with pack
: > behaviour and transportation, there's an argument for them to be
: > capitalistic (capitalism being rather thoroughly dependent on the
: > transportation system) but they're not obviously 'the capitalist phase of
: > the Dragaeran Cycle.
: Hm. I'd expect the Jhereg to be the capitalists, actually. I just found
: my copy of _Jhereg_, so I'll take a look at the cycle....
: That's interesting. "Vallista rends and then rebuilds," right before the
: Jhereg reign.
: > Nor do I think that the Teckla Republics should be regarded as
: > particularly 'capitalistic'; the Orb doesn't up and vanish (it's probably
: > floating around the head of Monsieur Le President instead of an Emperor,
: > but this could well be a mostly semantic difference), the economy doesn't
: > change radically because they keep on going round and well, _Rome_ was a
: > 'Republic' and they were hardly capitalists.
: Actually, I was assuming that the Teckla reigns were post-capitalist
: socialist, just because they're the closest thing the Dragaerans have to a
: working class.
: Or are they? I think some of the other houses are crafts-oriented. Don't
: the Creotha run the textiles industry?
Hmm. This is very interesting, especially in light of _Phoenix_ (which
unfortuantely I do not have a copy of, so if I get something wrong let
me know!) Remember how What's-his-name was trying to organize the
Easterners & Teckla, and Verra told Vlad that he was advocating a truth,
but was doomed to failed because it was a truth for a different time
(thus her attempt to stop him.) Now was it the wrong time in the Cycle,
or the wrong time in history overall, or the wrong time/space continuum?
My memory's not up on _Teckla_ and _Phoenix_ (because I didn't really
care for them as novels,) so I'm not sure where we want to classify
Kevin(?)'s (what *was* his name??) philosophy exactly, but I thought I
picked up socialist/Marxist themes.
Kate
--
A good novel tells us the truth about its hero; but a bad novel tells
us the truth about its author.
--G. K. Chesterton
Loki
: > Any sign of that sequel to "Witchblood"?
: God side-tracked on a few other projects. It may be one of those books
: that gets written four pages a year.
Wait a minute, God was supposed to write the sequel to witchblood? Huh.
What's he up to these days, anyway?
:)
Loki
--
+----------------------+---------------------------------+------------------+
| gwis...@uoguelph.ca | cs1...@snowhite.cis.uoguelph.ca | Geoffrey Wiseman |
+---------------+------+---------------------------------+------+-----------+
| http://tdg.uoguelph.ca/~ontarion/users/geoff |
+-----------------------------------------------+
"It was the day my grandmother exploded. I sat in the
crematorium, listening to my Uncle Hamish quietly snoring in
harmony to Bach's Mass in B Minor and I reflected that it
always seemed to be death that drew me back to Gallanach."
Will Shetterly
Boswell) wrote:
> In article <shetterl-220...@134.84.101.81>, Will
> Shetterly (shet...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) writes:
> >In article <falh.82...@maroon.tc.umn.edu>, fa...@maroon.tc.umn.edu
> >(Fred A Levy-Haskell) wrote:
> >> I forwarded this discussion to Steve, and this is what he had to say
about it:
> [snip]
> >> >A couple of other little things: 1) No, Will, society can, indeed,
make the
> >> >leap directly from a monarchial state to a workers' state: Witness
Russia in
> >> >1917.
> >Ah, good, Steve and I'll get to have another argument soon. The USSR
> >clearly wasn't a successful workers' state.
>
> Hate to spoil your fun, Will, but I can't see any mention of
> "successful" in there.
If it's not successful, it's not a workers' state. The USSR lurched
immediately into totalitarianism, and totalitarianism destroyed it.
>
> Still, I'm sure you guys will find something to argue about.
>
> Any sign of that sequel to "Witchblood"?
God side-tracked on a few other projects. It may be one of those books
that gets written four pages a year.
--
Gary Farber
: In ashen ink, Will Shetterly (shet...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) inscribed:
: : > Any sign of that sequel to "Witchblood"?
: : God side-tracked on a few other projects. It may be one of those books
: : that gets written four pages a year.
: Wait a minute, God was supposed to write the sequel to witchblood? Huh.
: What's he up to these days, anyway?
: :)
Actually, I think God is a faster typist (and writer) than Will. The
question is, is God a PJF? :-)
--
-- Gary Farber Middlemiss gfa...@panix.com
Copyright 1996 for DUFF Brooklyn, NY, USA
P Nielsen Hayden
gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:
>Loki (gwis...@uoguelph.ca) wrote:
>: In ashen ink, Will Shetterly (shet...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) inscribed:
>: : > Any sign of that sequel to "Witchblood"?
>
>: : God side-tracked on a few other projects. It may be one of those books
>: : that gets written four pages a year.
>
>: Wait a minute, God was supposed to write the sequel to witchblood? Huh.
>: What's he up to these days, anyway?
>
>: :)
>
>Actually, I think God is a faster typist (and writer) than Will. The
>question is, is God a PJF? :-)
God can't be a PJF; none of the books from that byline are tightly written
enough. Worse, they're all full of plotless noodling and avant-garde
experiments, much more like James Joyce than (say) Steven Brust.
I'm afraid God simply needs more cloaks and swords and cool stuff. Perhaps
God should join a writers' group.
The Great Grendel-Khan
[some discussion deleted]
>> : Hm. I'd expect the Jhereg to be the capitalists, actually. I just found
>> : my copy of _Jhereg_, so I'll take a look at the cycle....
>They're organized crime; of course they're capitalists. But that still
>leaves room for houses that are capitalists who accept social regulation
>(or, at least, pretend to).
Well, the Jhereg DOES pretend to. This is why they are so concerned
with someone turning "State's Evidence," even though the Empress knows
damn well what role each house plays in her society.
--
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~argent/grendel.html | arg...@iastate.edu
| <The Great Grendel-Khan>
| since '91
Lie, cheat, kill, go to church on Sundays...do whatever makes you feel alive.
Will Shetterly
(Loki) wrote:
> In ashen ink, Will Shetterly (shet...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) inscribed:
> : > Any sign of that sequel to "Witchblood"?
>
> : God side-tracked on a few other projects. It may be one of those books
> : that gets written four pages a year.
>
> Wait a minute, God was supposed to write the sequel to witchblood? Huh.
> What's he up to these days, anyway?
Clearly not writing enough pages of my books, the bum. Who cares what his
crummy excuse is? Writers. Feh. A monkey could do that, type, type, type,
but what do you hear, writer's block, lack of inspiration, a bunch of
nonsense.
Uh, that was s'posed to be "Got side-tracked...."
Lenny Bailes
n914...@rowlf.cc.wwu.edu (Jacob C Kesinger) wrote:
>d...@maroon.tc.umn.edu (Daniel S Goodman) writes:
>
>>And that the book itself is a Marxist allegory.
>It is? Could you be more specific, please?
>
Well, remember that Rufus T. Firefly wakes up to discover that he
is the appointed savior of a bankrupt country. Civil war soon
breaks out between the monarch and his brothers.
James Nicoll
P Nielsen Hayden <p...@tor.com> wrote:
>In article <4e9u23$a...@panix2.panix.com>,
> gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:
>>
>>Actually, I think God is a faster typist (and writer) than Will. The
>>question is, is God a PJF? :-)
>
>God can't be a PJF; none of the books from that byline are tightly written
>enough.
that tightly plotted, esp the ending of the Riverworld series.
I'm not sure I want to live in a PJF universe.
James Nicoll
--
" The moral, if you're a scholar don't pick up beautiful babes on deserted
lanes at night. Real Moral, Chinese ghost stories have mostly been written
by scholars who have some pretty strange fantasies about women."
Brian David Phillips
Kate Nepveu
: In ashen ink, Will Shetterly (shet...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) inscribed:
: : > Any sign of that sequel to "Witchblood"?
: : God side-tracked on a few other projects. It may be one of those books
: : that gets written four pages a year.
: Wait a minute, God was supposed to write the sequel to witchblood? Huh.
: What's he up to these days, anyway?
Reminds me of a graffito I saw quoted somewhere:
"God is alive and well and working on a much less ambitious project."
Now whether the sequel to Witchblood is the new project or the old I
can't say...
Peter H. Granzeau
>In ashen ink, Will Shetterly (shet...@maroon.tc.umn.edu) inscribed:
>: > Any sign of that sequel to "Witchblood"?
>: God side-tracked on a few other projects. It may be one of those books
>: that gets written four pages a year.
>Wait a minute, God was supposed to write the sequel to witchblood? Huh.
>What's he up to these days, anyway?
How did a discussion of Steve Brust get over to Bela Fleck, anyway?
Regards, PHG
ICBM:37ø01'48"N,76ø25'38"W
P Nielsen Hayden
gran...@norfolk.infi.net (Peter H. Granzeau) wrote:
>
>How did a discussion of Steve Brust get over to Bela Fleck, anyway?
Perfectly naturally, that's how. Are they not both Hungarians?
Peter H. Granzeau
>In article <4eajo3$6...@park.interport.net>,
>P Nielsen Hayden <p...@tor.com> wrote:
>>In article <4e9u23$a...@panix2.panix.com>,
>> gfa...@panix.com (Gary Farber) wrote:
>>>
>>>Actually, I think God is a faster typist (and writer) than Will. The
>>>question is, is God a PJF? :-)
>>
>>God can't be a PJF; none of the books from that byline are tightly written
>>enough.
>
> Eh? I've read Phillip Jose Farmer's stuff and it doesn't seem all
>that tightly plotted, esp the ending of the Riverworld series.
> I'm not sure I want to live in a PJF universe.
Er, you _are_ aware that Steven Karl Zoltan Brust, and some other
Minneapolitan authors (and maybe Jane Yolen) add "P. J. F." (Maybe
without the periods or spaces) to their names on the title page of
their books?
In this context, I believe it stands for "Pre-Joycean Fellowship" or
words to that effect. I will leave it to you to decide what is meant
by that.
Ahasuerus the Wandering Jew
> jam...@coulomb.uwaterloo.ca (James Nicoll) wrote:
> >P Nielsen Hayden <p...@tor.com> wrote: [snip]
> >>God can't be a PJF; none of the books from that byline are tightly written
> >>enough.
> >
> > Eh? I've read Phillip Jose Farmer's stuff and it doesn't seem all
> >that tightly plotted, esp the ending of the Riverworld series.
> >
> > I'm not sure I want to live in a PJF universe.
Oh, I guess I could be convinced to become one of the Nine... :-)
> Er, you _are_ aware that Steven Karl Zoltan Brust, and some other
> Minneapolitan authors (and maybe Jane Yolen) add "P. J. F." (Maybe
> without the periods or spaces) to their names on the title page of
> their books?
>
> In this context, I believe it stands for "Pre-Joycean Fellowship" or
> words to that effect. I will leave it to you to decide what is meant
> by that.
Alternatively, he could read the FAQ :)
Stewart M. Wiener
: s...@astro.ocis.temple.edu (Stewart M. Wiener) wrote:
: >Now that ORCA's on its way, is there a tentative date for Tor to
: >release DRAGON?
: Absolutely. I predict that Tor will release DRAGON not much more than a
: year after Steve writes it and sends it in.
: At the moment, it's still a book or two away in his writing schedule.
For some reason, I was under the mistaken impression that it was submitted
to Tor months ago, and Tor had been waiting for Ace to release ORCA. I must
have seriously misread someone's messages, under the influence of wishful
thinking.
I should have asked, are there any tentative dates for whatever's next in
line from Steve? You've mentioned FREEDOM AND NECESSITY, and (I think) THE
PATHS OF THE DEAD. And is there something *else* ahead of DRAGON?
P Nielsen Hayden
s...@astro.ocis.temple.edu (Stewart M. Wiener) wrote:
>For some reason, I was under the mistaken impression that it was submitted
>to Tor months ago, and Tor had been waiting for Ace to release ORCA. I must
>have seriously misread someone's messages, under the influence of wishful
>thinking.
Glad we cleared that up. No, we don't have any Steve Brust books we're
secretly sitting on. :)
>I should have asked, are there any tentative dates for whatever's next in
>line from Steve? You've mentioned FREEDOM AND NECESSITY, and (I think) THE
>PATHS OF THE DEAD. And is there something *else* ahead of DRAGON?
FREEDOM AND NECESSITY (with Emma Bull) is delivered, and scheduled for
hardcover in early '97. THE PATHS OF THE DEAD (book 1 of the Khaavren trilogy
THE VISCOUNT OF ADRILANKHA) is currently being written. It'll be done when
it's done. I believe Steve intends to write DRAGON next, but he could well
change his mind.
-----
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@tor.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
Kate Nepveu
net>:
Distribution:
P Nielsen Hayden (p...@tor.com) wrote:
: In article <4ekg8r$2...@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu>,
: s...@astro.ocis.temple.edu (Stewart M. Wiener) wrote:
: >I should have asked, are there any tentative dates for whatever's next in
: >line from Steve? You've mentioned FREEDOM AND NECESSITY, and (I think) THE
: >PATHS OF THE DEAD. And is there something *else* ahead of DRAGON?
: FREEDOM AND NECESSITY (with Emma Bull) is delivered, and scheduled for
: hardcover in early '97. THE PATHS OF THE DEAD (book 1 of the Khaavren trilogy
: THE VISCOUNT OF ADRILANKHA) is currently being written. It'll be done when
: it's done. I believe Steve intends to write DRAGON next, but he could well
: change his mind.
A whole year? Sigh... Information is not always a blessing--if I
didn't know it was coming out, I wouldn't be waiting for it...
Kate
--
"Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?"
"Well, I think so, Brain... but if they called them _Sad_ Meals, how
would they get kids to buy them?"
--Animaniacs
Erica L. Sadun
Kate Nepveu <kne...@lynx.dac.neu.edu> wrote:
:P Nielsen Hayden (p...@tor.com) wrote:
:: In article <4ekg8r$2...@cronkite.ocis.temple.edu>,
:: s...@astro.ocis.temple.edu (Stewart M. Wiener) wrote:
:: >I should have asked, are there any tentative dates for whatever's next in
:: >line from Steve? You've mentioned FREEDOM AND NECESSITY, and (I think) THE
:: >PATHS OF THE DEAD. And is there something *else* ahead of DRAGON?
:: FREEDOM AND NECESSITY (with Emma Bull) is delivered, and scheduled for
:: it's done. I believe Steve intends to write DRAGON next, but he could well
:: change his mind.
:A whole year? Sigh... Information is not always a blessing--if I
:didn't know it was coming out, I wouldn't be waiting for it...
Seen scribbled recently on a NYC bathroom stall:
Me wacky TOR editor. Me like making poor readers wait.
Me sit on new books. Hee hee much fun. Me hide new
Jordan novel. Me hide new Brust novel. Me fail to distribute
new Goldstein book. Not sell any books but Goodkind. Me hide
the good books and make profits with Goodkind instead. Lots of sex
and pain. Me financial wizard.
--
ti fI" .gnilgnad lwahs reh ,nireV dias ",wonk uoy ,iadeS seA na m'I"
ot em rof selur eht tsniaga eb dluow ti taht tcaf eht rof t'nerew
yletanifed dluow ouy ,rennam evisnefed ylerup a tub gnihtyna ni lennahc
(ude.hcetag.cc@acire) nudaS acirE ".tol elohw A .elbuort fo tol a ni eb
Ilya Vinarsky
A demonstration in Rome: LONG LIVE FEUDALISM - THE FUTURE OF THE MANKIND
ObSF for all historical determinists out there: _Against a Dark
Background_ by Iain Banks.
--
The opinions expressed in this message are my own personal views
and do not reflect the official views of Microsoft Corporation.