VC++ Features in .NET?
Larry
VC++ will not be completely supported until a later date. Is this true? If
so, how much is left out?
Thank you, Larry.
qwerty
straight C++ using VS 7.0 then you can write managed C++ and implement .NET.
However, if you mean a MFC windows application then your probably out of
luck. I attended the VSLive in San Francisco last week and here's the scoop
as to migrating to .NET. Straight C++ migrates with little problem, so does
MFC if it's a COM object because .NET supports COM. However, if it's a MFC
Windows application there is no migration path and you will most likely have
to re-write these applications in a managed .NET language. There are no
"Managed MFC" applications projects in VS 7.0. The same is true of VB6
windows applications. In fact, the only time MFC was ever mentioned during
the VSLive event was a single slide on the last day explaining the above
migration path. There was no talk of supporting managed MFC as some future
date. That's not to say that it might actually happen, but it doesn't seems
that's they way MS is going. The entire .NET platform is written in C# and
MS is moving all internal development to C#, which includes it's office
products. The handwriting on the proverbial wall is clear and it's not MFC.
"Larry" <NoS...@MyHome.com> wrote in message
news:uvHyTFBuBHA.2616@tkmsftngp03...
Larry
> products. The handwriting on the proverbial wall is clear and it's not
MFC.
I wasn't very clear with my question, and I really don't know enough of what
I heard to say it better. You answered my question quite well though and I
thank you. I don't use MFC and when I said VC++ I meant plain old C++. I
am in such a habit of saying VC++ that I forget I am referring to the Visual
Studio and not necessarily the C++ language.
C# must be quite capable if MS is writing all internal code with it now.
Wow. I thought the day would never come that C++ would take a back seat.
I use C++ in the VS6 IDE to write small games. I don't do database, MFC, or
web development so I am not sure if C# or C++ in .NET would help me much.
That should be a question I suppose.
Thanks, Larry.
John Mueller
You'll find that VC++ .NET is more of a transitional product than a true .NET
development package. For example, it doesn't include any support for designers.
If you want to write a managed application, you'd better be prepared to write
all of the code required to create the forms by hand. You'll also find that
some of your old applications won't compile anymore, especially those that
contain database support. I did find that simpler MFC applications compile just
fine, as did many of my components.
You can create new MFC applications, DLLs, and ActiveX controls, Win32
applications, managed applications, class libraries, and Web services. You'll
also find the usual assortment of ATL projects.
The biggest problem is that the help files have a dearth of VC++ examples--most
of the examples are in VB or C#. I also found some holes in support such as the
lack of an MMC snap-in project.
John Mueller
--
"Larry" <NoS...@MyHome.com> wrote in message
news:uvHyTFBuBHA.2616@tkmsftngp03...
Brandon Bray [MSFT]
> > MS is moving all internal development to C#, which includes it's office
> > products. The handwriting on the proverbial wall is clear and it's not
> > MFC.
>
> Wow. I thought the day would never come that C++ would take a back seat.
That's really news to me. :-)
I wouldn't stretch this too far. Yes, C# is a great language but the use of
C++ is still alive and thriving. Since I interned in Microsoft Outlook, I
usually go over there to hang out and see what's going on. C# is used in
areas where the .NET platform is designed to stand out -- namely Web
Services and ASP.NET. C++ is definitely the mainstream language for writing
the applications. Whether that will change in the future, I'm not sure.
It's possible... but for the time being C++ is still a great language, and
most people here are comfortable with it. And on top of all that, it's the
only language that can do native code and reach into and take advantage of
all parts of the .NET platform. It's the perfect language for anyone trying
to migrate from native code to .NET managed code.
--
Cheerio!
Brandon Bray Program Manager in the Visual C++ Compiler Team
And now a word from the lawyers: This posting is provided "AS IS" with no
warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use. © 2002
Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Ronald Laeremans [MSFT]
using C# for all internal development is completely bogus.
Ronald Laeremans
Visual C++ compiler team
"Larry" <NoS...@MyHome.com> wrote in message
news:epntNvCuBHA.2692@tkmsftngp07...
qwerty
"Ronald Laeremans [MSFT]" <ronl...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:eO7k$1MuBHA.1608@tkmsftngp04...
> To re-iterate what Brandon already said, the statement that Microsoft is
> using C# for all internal development is completely bogus.
I didn't claim that MS is using C# for all internal development, only that
they (MS) said that they are moving in that direction, with most of their
application development in the future being C#. Certainly C# is not
appropriate for all the software products MS develops, like their operating
systems or device drivers. However, during the VSLive rollout last week
they did indicate that C# is the direction they're moving for their
application development, in which they specifically mentioned their Office
products. Now that may have been hype, I'm only repeating what information
that was presented. Please don't confuse VC++ with MFC, which seems to
happen sometimes. My impression was that what's currently being done with
MFC has been or will soon be moved to the C# & .NET platforms. There were
no sessions on MFC at the rollout last week. MFC was only mentioned once,
on a single slide, showing that there was no migration from a MFC windows
application to .NET. There were only a couple even about C++, with one of
those only being about advanced debugging and optimization features of VS
7.0. BTW, both of those were in a back room and I had to ask to even be
able to find them. Based on that, I wouldn't recommend doing any future
development using MFC unless it was absolutely essential. However, C++ will
certainly be around, but to a lesser extent than is today.
Larry
> using C# for all internal development is completely bogus.
>
> Ronald Laeremans
> Visual C++ compiler team
Well it looks like for what I do, I will stay with VStudio6 and BC++Builder5
for my games.
I had trouble imagining that very much of what Microsoft builds is done
entirely with C#. The Office product maybe, but .NET is built with C#?
Larry.
Ronald Laeremans [MSFT]
Yes, managed code is the direction we are going in moving forward for all
the places where it makes sense. However extrapolating that to mean C# is
simply not true. We are spending a lot of resources to make sure C++ is a
primary development language on the .Net platform and are seeing a lot of
internal adoption of C++ to write managed code inside of Microsoft. In the
RTM version the primary focus of MC++ is to enable you take integrate easily
with existing code, but in future releases you will see us focusing much
more on making C++ take up the traditional role it serves role as the high
end language for system level programming and for expert level programming
on the .Net platform.
In fact making sure of that is my primary job. So I do hope I make it
happen.<g>
I did a C++ talk for the launch event at VS Live as well. We had a full day
of C++ sessions. I do agree with you that we didn't cope very well with the
large number of VBits attendees compared to the more limited number of C++,
or for that matter C# attendees. In fact I myself had to ask for the rooms
the C++ sessions were given in since they were very inconveniently places
behind the corner with very little marking to help you find them. I
apologize for that, it definitely isn't an intended statement on the
relative importance of the languages.
Ronald Laeremans
Visual C++ compiler team
"qwerty" <nos...@all.com> wrote in message
news:OE#SXONuBHA.2616@tkmsftngp03...
Ronald Laeremans [MSFT]
Especially for a games developer we have added great new optimizations in
the VC 7.0 compiler. And the debugger is miles better than the 6.0 debugger.
Why don't you want to take advantage of that?
Ronald Laeremans
Visual C++ compiler team
"Larry" <NoS...@MyHome.com> wrote in message
news:uVDEuWNuBHA.2144@tkmsftngp07...
Larry
>
> Especially for a games developer we have added great new optimizations in
> the VC 7.0 compiler. And the debugger is miles better than the 6.0
debugger.
> Why don't you want to take advantage of that?
>
> Ronald Laeremans
> Visual C++ compiler team
Ronald,
Well, I have a habit of buying every compiler I can get my credit card on,
and I have been trying to cool it. I love new tools and I have had almost
every version of Borland's Delphi, BCBuilder, and VStudio (started with
VC++). I thought that .NET was more for everything else except DirectX and
game type development. I know it supports it but that is not the type of
programming it is centered around from all I have heard and read.
Actually, now until September the 1rst, $300 worth of rebates are included
with the Professional version at Amazon. After the rebates, the .NET
package is only $200 which is a heck of a bargain. I have been telling the
Borland groups that with all I can get with Visual Studio for the price, why
would I bother with just one of their tools? Comparing prices and the
number of tools, VStudio is the best way to go.
One thing that is very impressive of Microsoft is that they (you) continue
to issue service-packs as long as there are bugs. Borland issues one patch
and one only. Then they come out with the next version. Same habit with
each version. One patch for compiler bugs, lots of IDE bugs left unfixed,
new version and around we go again. :-)
I bought a new Dell 8200 2.2 gig PC last week, so .NET would run quite nice
on it. Maybe I will go ahead and try it out. At least I can be assured
that a service-pack is on the way soon.
Thanks for your time, Larry.
Sven Groot
> > Why Larry,
> >
> > Especially for a games developer we have added great new optimizations
in
> > the VC 7.0 compiler. And the debugger is miles better than the 6.0
> debugger.
> > Why don't you want to take advantage of that?
> >
> > Ronald Laeremans
> > Visual C++ compiler team
>
> Ronald,
>
> Well, I have a habit of buying every compiler I can get my credit card on,
> and I have been trying to cool it. I love new tools and I have had almost
> every version of Borland's Delphi, BCBuilder, and VStudio (started with
> VC++). I thought that .NET was more for everything else except DirectX
and
> game type development. I know it supports it but that is not the type of
> programming it is centered around from all I have heard and read.
Yes the VC7 compiler can produce Managed code, but it can also compile
normal C++ into normal native code, and is better at that than the VC6
compiler. You needn't use .Net to use VC7.
Sven Groot
Sven Groot
Framework and CLR are written in C#), but Ximian (known for it's work on
Gnome) is writing an open source implementation of .Net for Linux based on
the ECMA standards, and they are writing it completely in C#. Even their C#
compiler is written in C#. If you want to know how they do that check:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dndotnet/html/deicazainterview.asp
Sven Groot
Walter Sullivan [MSFT]
code), VC++ .NET is still a solid upgrade. Here are some links of just a few
things that have been added since VC6:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnnews/2001/sept/vcnet/vcnet.asp
http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/technical/articles.asp
http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/default.asp, in
particular, see the
article on buffer overruns and Whole Program Optimizations
http://www.gotdotnet.com/team/cplusplus/, this page has a
few articles on
the unmanaged C++ features
These are all features that are significant improvements
even if you're writing the exact same application you were writing with VC6.
There are nice features about the IDE, even over what VC6 had. The debugger
being one as Ronald mentions.
Walter Sullivan
Lead Program Manager, ATL/MFC
"Larry" <NoS...@MyHome.com> wrote in message
news:OXXLmPPuBHA.1460@tkmsftngp05...
qwerty
which as you noted isn't limited to C#. Most of my other comments refer to
writing GUI Windows applications and it seems very likely that coding new
full blown MFC windows applications is a dead end path. That's not to say
that MFC isn't going to be around & supported for some time, but only that
isn't the direction that MS is moving for GUI Windows applications and that
writing brand new flagship windows applications using MFC is probably a
mistake. Again, C++ (not MFC) is still important and will be important in
the future. Unless you know that MFC will be ported to .NET or there will
be some sort of a migration path. I was told at VSLive that there is no
migration path for MFC windows applications to .NET. This is actually
important to me because my current employer has us writing brand new
"flagship" GUI windows applications, with clients accessing a SQL database
on a server, using MFC with no plans to implement .NET. This common GUI MFC
application will be the base for all future applications. I've been
attempting to convince the powers that be that this is a mistake, but I've
had little success. No one else, other than myself, has taken any kind of a
serious look at the .NET technology. We've already chosen MS as our
development platform so we should be moving in the same direction as MS. MS
literally has said they've "Bet the Company" on .NET, so if my employer
doesn't think that .NET will be a success then they should choose another
vendor's platform, IMHO. It seems to me that the .NET architecture is
designed to do exactly what we're trying to do and would make life much
easier for myself and my fellow developers. Am I mistaken in my bleak
outlook for MFC or will MFC be moved into the .NET world and become Managed
MFC? That would at least give me some comfort in knowing that we could at
least climb out of that dead end canyon.
"Ronald Laeremans [MSFT]" <ronl...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:OlswMDOuBHA.2428@tkmsftngp03...
Ronald Laeremans [MSFT]
We are currently investigating what options we have to integrate MFC with
Windows Forms code or migrate pieces of MFC to something beyond just the
managed code you get by recompiling with the /CLR compiler option. There
isn't much of anything to share yet, but your ideas on what would be useful
are very welcome either in this forum or in direct email to me. (I post
using my actual Microsoft email address here.)
-Ronald-
"qwerty" <nos...@all.com> wrote in message
news:ODVMOYauBHA.2480@tkmsftngp07...
...<snipped>
Ian Semmel
customers into an unknown and untested operating environment.
He is aiming his products at a wide base that will exist for many years.
"qwerty" <nos...@all.com> wrote in message
news:ODVMOYauBHA.2480@tkmsftngp07...
qwerty
"Ian Semmel" <ise...@rocketcomp.com.au> wrote in message
news:uNT5FkluBHA.1228@tkmsftngp04...
> I think your employer is pretty smart because he doesn't want to force
your
> customers into an unknown and untested operating environment.
> He is aiming his products at a wide base that will exist for many years.
If my employer doesn't think that MS will succeed with .NET then they should
choose another vendors technology, like SUN's J2EE. In the mean time we're
writing brand new legacy code.