Draft reading list: Fantasy of Manners / Mannerpunk
Kate Nepveu
LiveJournal <http://kate-nepveu.livejournal.com/16643.html>), I
thought I would draft up a reading list for the fantasy of manners /
mannerpunk subgenres.
To summarize, the structural markers are: negotiability and mutability
of social structures, e.g., social mobility and disguises such as
girl-as-boy and the foolish fop; coming of age; intimacy as a danger,
one that the characters recognize yet strive to overcome; the
importance of language, especially as manners; mixing of genres. As a
corollary, the prose style tends to have a certain elegance and wit,
particularly in the dialogue. I tend to identify it mostly by the
style, but that's partly because I wasn't aware of the structural
aspects until this weekend. =>
Here's a first stab (also posted to my LJ for the people there to
comment); any more suggestions, descriptions of things I haven't read,
etc.? I'm hoping to put this up on a web site as a resource.
* Steven Brust
* Khaavren series. Dumas pastiches.
* _The Phoenix Guards_
* _Five Hundred Years After_
* _The Paths of the Dead_
* _The Lord of Castle Black_ (forthcoming August 2003)
* _Sethra Lavode_ (forthcoming)
* _Issola_. The most recent in the Vlad Taltos series, and quite
literally a novel of manners.
* Steven Brust and Emma Bull, _Freedom and Necessity_.
An epistolary novel set in 1849 with a Lymond-type protagonist. It's
ambiguous as to whether there's magic.
* Lois McMaster Bujold, _A Civil Campaign_. A volume in the ongoing
Vorkosigan series, which was strongly and explicitly influenced by
Heyer, Austen, and Sayers.
* Emma Bull's non-Bordertown novels
* _War for the Oaks_. One of the classic works of urban fantasy.
* _Bone Dance_. Post-apocalyptic fantasy with an sf feel.
* Possibly her other novel, _Falcon_, though it's been long enough
since I read it that I'm not sure.
* Pamela Dean
* _Tam Lin_. Set in a small liberal-arts college, and based on the
ballad.
* possibly the Secret Country trilogy, which is a variant on
doorway-into-another-world.
* Charles de Lint. To me these don't have the same prose style or
dialogue as the other urban fantasies listed, but they are close
cousins in terms of subject matter, so I put them down tentatively.
* Newford urban fantasies (numerous)
* _Jack of Kinrowan_
* Teresa Edgerton
* _Goblin Moon_ and _The Gnome's Engine_. An alternate-world fantasy
duology with a Regency flavor and a Lymond/Lord Peter type.
* _The Queen's Necklace_. I haven't read it yet, but I understand it
to be in a similar vein.
* Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series. I know nothing about these but
that someone in the audience at Readercon recommended the books to
me.
* John M. Ford
* _The Dragon Waiting_. Alternate history of, inter alia, Richard
III and the Princes in the Tower.
* _The Last Hot Time_. An urban fantasy closely related to the
Bordertown universe.
* possibly _Growing Up Weightless_, a hard sf coming-of-age tale.
* Diana Wynne Jones
* _Howl's Moving Castle_. Frankly, I didn't like this book, but it
was mentioned at Readercon, so I include it for your
consideration.
* _Deep Secret_, to a certain extent; I think it has a lot of the
structural elements, particularly disguise and language, and a bit
of the "feel"--helpful, I know.
* Ellen Kushner, all of her novels:
* _Swordspoint_. *The* classic fantasy of manners novel.
* _Thomas the Rhymer_, a ballad-based novel.
* _The Fall of the Kings_, co-written with Delia Sherman; set in the
same world as _Swordspoint_.
* Andre Norton and Rosemary Edgehill, _The Shadow of Albion_ and
_Leopard in Exile_. These were recommended to me at Readercon by the
same person as above, and appear to be alternate history. On my
to-read list.
* Madeleine Robins, _Point of Honour_. Described as Austen noir at the
Readercon talk. On my to-read list.
* Melissa Scott and Lisa A. Barnett, _Armor of Light_, _Point of
Hopes_, _Point of Dreams_. On my to-read list.
* Delia Sherman, _The Porcelain Dove_. Haven't read this, either, but
it was mentioned at the Readercon talk.
* Caroline Stevermer: all of her novels under this name are fantasy of
manners.
* _The Serpent's Egg_. A swashbuckling court fantasy.
* _A College of Magics_. Alternate early-20th c. fantasy.
* _When the King Comes Home_. Alternate Renaissance fantasy, in the
same world as _College_.
* Martha Wells
* _The Element of Fire_. A brilliant, sadly out-of-print
swashbuckler.
* _The Death of the Necromancer_. Less brilliant, IMO, set later in
same city.
* Elizabeth Willey's novels: _The Well-Favored Man_, _A Sorceror and a
Gentleman_, _The Price of Blood and Honor_. These were summed up by
someone else as "Nice Princes in Amber"; I think I've only read the
first.
* The Bordertown shared universe, created by Terri Windling and Mark
Alan Arnold (urban fantasy):
* Anthologies:
* _Borderland_
* _Bordertown_
* _Life on the Border_
* _The Essential Bordertown_
* Novels:
* Will Shetterly, _Elsewhere_ and _Nevernever_
* Emma Bull, _Finder_
* Patricia Wrede and Caroline Stevermer
* _Sorcery and Cecilia_. Epistolary Regency-with-magic novel.
* _The Grand Tour_. The sequel, forthcoming 2004 (?).
* Patricia Wrede
* _Mairelon the Magician_ and _Magician's Ward_. Set in the same
universe as _Sorcery and Cecilia_.
* _Snow White and Rose Red_. An Elizabethan England fantasy.
--
Kate Nepveu
E-mail: kne...@steelypips.org
Home: http://www.steelypips.org/
Book log: http://www.steelypips.org/weblog/
skg
kne...@steelypips.org says...
> Prompted by a talk at Readercon (short account of which on my
> LiveJournal <http://kate-nepveu.livejournal.com/16643.html>), I
> thought I would draft up a reading list for the fantasy of manners /
> mannerpunk subgenres.
Jo Walton suggested on lj that the list feels a bit broad. If the point
is to collect titles of books whose concerns turn upon structured
manners, no worries. If these are all mean to share something of the
same manner-structure (governing cultural influence and/or basis?), the
"something" seems too subjective. I guess I'm asking how far from
*central* focus a book can stray and still qualify for this list.
I've read about two-thirds of what you list, for what it's worth in
evaluating my question. If Martha Wells' _Death of the Necromancer_
counts, Delia Sherman's _The Porcelain Dove_ definitely should as well
(you mention not having read it). Not as sure about _Elsewhere_ and
_Never-never_.
And I'd add one if we're collectively going for the looser sense: Liz
Williams, _The Poison Master_. David Kennedy recently reviewed it here,
and I posted a brief plug for it some time earlier. (Slow connection,
not going to hunt down google refs.)
sharon
(posted and lj-commented, more or less)
Kate Nepveu
>In article <dtobhvohtred4qj8j...@news.verizon.net>,
>kne...@steelypips.org says...
>> Prompted by a talk at Readercon (short account of which on my
>> LiveJournal <http://kate-nepveu.livejournal.com/16643.html>), I
>> thought I would draft up a reading list for the fantasy of manners /
>> mannerpunk subgenres.
>[list munched for space considerations]
>Jo Walton suggested on lj that the list feels a bit broad.
[...]
Yup; I'm going to split it down into fantasy of manners and
mannerpunk, and then probably let the mannerpunk languish, as I'm
interested really in the first. This is going to be very subjective as
a lot of what I see the difference as, is style, but oh well.
>(posted and lj-commented, more or less)
Ditto.
Ethan Merritt
Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>
>To summarize, the structural markers are: negotiability and mutability
>of social structures, e.g., social mobility and disguises such as
>girl-as-boy and the foolish fop; coming of age; intimacy as a danger,
>one that the characters recognize yet strive to overcome; the
>importance of language, especially as manners; mixing of genres. As a
>corollary, the prose style tends to have a certain elegance and wit,
>particularly in the dialogue. I tend to identify it mostly by the
>style, but that's partly because I wasn't aware of the structural
>aspects until this weekend. =>
Interesting list of markers; I, also, had not thought in quite those
terms.
I could quibble about some of your examples (Elizabeth Willey???),
but I won't. Instead I'll just ask why your list seems to veer
off in the direction of urban fantasy. That's not a sub-genre
I would have picked as most likely to produce a fantasy of manners.
Given the list as it stands, you absolutely must add Wrede's
_The Raven Ring_.
And if you are going to include _A Civil Campaign_,
which seems well out of the usual domain of either fantasy or
<foo>punk, then surely you must also list Doris Egan's _Gate of Ivory_
and its sequels.
>* Teresa Edgerton
> * _Goblin Moon_ and _The Gnome's Engine_. An alternate-world fantasy
> duology with a Regency flavor and a Lymond/Lord Peter type.
> * _The Queen's Necklace_. I haven't read it yet, but I understand it
> to be in a similar vein.
Noted, and added to my to-read list.
>* Diana Wynne Jones
> * _Howl's Moving Castle_. Frankly, I didn't like this book, but it
> was mentioned at Readercon, so I include it for your consideration.
One of my current favorites, and yes, I can see why it would fit on
the list.
>* Patricia Wrede and Caroline Stevermer
> * _Sorcery and Cecilia_. Epistolary Regency-with-magic novel.
> * _The Grand Tour_. The sequel, forthcoming 2004 (?).
>
>* Patricia Wrede
> * _Mairelon the Magician_ and _Magician's Ward_. Set in the same
> universe as _Sorcery and Cecilia_.
These should stand as the defining examples, I think.
Also Francine Woodbury's _Shade and Shadow_, which I highly
recommend.
--
Ethan A Merritt
Kate Nepveu
>In article <dtobhvohtred4qj8j...@news.verizon.net>,
>Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>>To summarize, the structural markers are: negotiability and mutability
>>of social structures, e.g., social mobility and disguises such as
>>girl-as-boy and the foolish fop; coming of age; intimacy as a danger,
>>one that the characters recognize yet strive to overcome; the
>>importance of language, especially as manners; mixing of genres. As a
>>corollary, the prose style tends to have a certain elegance and wit,
>>particularly in the dialogue. I tend to identify it mostly by the
>>style, but that's partly because I wasn't aware of the structural
>>aspects until this weekend. =>
>Interesting list of markers; I, also, had not thought in quite those
>terms.
>I could quibble about some of your examples (Elizabeth Willey???),
>but I won't. Instead I'll just ask why your list seems to veer
>off in the direction of urban fantasy. That's not a sub-genre
>I would have picked as most likely to produce a fantasy of manners.
That's the "mannerpunk." As Keller put it, fantasy of manners is
_Swordspoint_; mannerpunk is Bordertown.
They are often associated with each other, but as I said, I'm going to
split the list.
>Given the list as it stands, you absolutely must add Wrede's
>_The Raven Ring_.
Eh. I can sorta kinda see where you're going with this--and don't get
me wrong, I really liked _The Raven Ring_--but I'm not convinced,
style-wise. (I *said* it was going to be subjective.) Make the case
for it?
>And if you are going to include _A Civil Campaign_,
>which seems well out of the usual domain of either fantasy or
><foo>punk, then surely you must also list Doris Egan's _Gate of Ivory_
>and its sequels.
I waffled about _ACC_, but the plot is so much a comedy of manners
that . . . I think it's going on the "honorary mention" sublist (along
with _Issola_ and the Drake Maajstral books) when I break up the list
tonight.
>>* Teresa Edgerton
>> * _Goblin Moon_ and _The Gnome's Engine_. An alternate-world fantasy
>> duology with a Regency flavor and a Lymond/Lord Peter type.
>> * _The Queen's Necklace_. I haven't read it yet, but I understand it
>> to be in a similar vein.
>Noted, and added to my to-read list.
The first two are out-of-print but not hard to find. I have ambivalent
feelings about the plots, but they were enjoyable for their
characters.
>>* Diana Wynne Jones
>> * _Howl's Moving Castle_. Frankly, I didn't like this book, but it
>> was mentioned at Readercon, so I include it for your consideration.
>One of my current favorites, and yes, I can see why it would fit on
>the list.
I hated the ending, but I guess the Donne and the old woman
transformation would fit.
>>* Patricia Wrede and Caroline Stevermer
>> * _Sorcery and Cecilia_. Epistolary Regency-with-magic novel.
>> * _The Grand Tour_. The sequel, forthcoming 2004 (?).
>>* Patricia Wrede
>> * _Mairelon the Magician_ and _Magician's Ward_. Set in the same
>> universe as _Sorcery and Cecilia_.
>These should stand as the defining examples, I think.
Along with _Swordspoint_, else we're too far into "Regency", which
seems limiting?
>Also Francine Woodbury's _Shade and Shadow_, which I highly
>recommend.
More information, please?
Randy Money
> Prompted by a talk at Readercon (short account of which on my
> LiveJournal <http://kate-nepveu.livejournal.com/16643.html>), I
> thought I would draft up a reading list for the fantasy of manners /
> mannerpunk subgenres.
>
> To summarize, the structural markers are: negotiability and mutability
> of social structures, e.g., social mobility and disguises such as
> girl-as-boy and the foolish fop; coming of age; intimacy as a danger,
> one that the characters recognize yet strive to overcome; the
> importance of language, especially as manners; mixing of genres. As a
> corollary, the prose style tends to have a certain elegance and wit,
> particularly in the dialogue. I tend to identify it mostly by the
> style, but that's partly because I wasn't aware of the structural
> aspects until this weekend. =>
>
I'm curious about this, Kate. I haven't read a one of these, but your
description sounds a lot like Shakespearean comedy or maybe how it was
transformed into Restoration comedy. Does there seem to be direct
influence from those writers? Seems like someone interested in writing
this would get a lot of inspiration from Congreve, among others.
I get the feeling, without any empirical proof, that this is resurfacing
in the mystery genre, too. Certainly the movies are trying desperately
to revive the romantic comedy and there's a degree of overlap there as well.
Randy M.
Elaine Thompson
wrote:
>Prompted by a talk at Readercon (short account of which on my
>LiveJournal <http://kate-nepveu.livejournal.com/16643.html>), I
>thought I would draft up a reading list for the fantasy of manners /
>mannerpunk subgenres.
>
>To summarize, the structural markers are: negotiability and mutability
>of social structures, e.g., social mobility and disguises such as
>girl-as-boy and the foolish fop; coming of age; intimacy as a danger,
>one that the characters recognize yet strive to overcome; the
>importance of language, especially as manners; mixing of genres. As a
>corollary, the prose style tends to have a certain elegance and wit,
>particularly in the dialogue. I tend to identify it mostly by the
>style, but that's partly because I wasn't aware of the structural
>aspects until this weekend. =>
>
I've also identified <foo> of manners by style. Some of those other
markers seem awfully broad - Coming of age, or mixing of genres frex.
so the people defining this must have meant the all or most of these
in combination add up to a 'manners' story?
What's mannerpunk?
Seems to me that one thing that must matter if you're going to call it
'manner<foo>' is *manners* and several of your suggested titles don't
strike me as fitting that.
(I was recently in a heated discussion about Jane Austen which may
affect my current opinions on what makes a novel of manners.)
>* Steven Brust and Emma Bull, _Freedom and Necessity_.
> An epistolary novel set in 1849 with a Lymond-type protagonist. It's
> ambiguous as to whether there's magic.
This, frex. Although I didn't finish it. I got to somewhere in the
middle where the girl disguised as a boy meets Lymondclone and they're
escaping together. But as far as I got I didn't notice manners
mattering much. They didn't inform the action of the story, limit it
or seem to be being used to bring about the resolution.
>
>* Lois McMaster Bujold, _A Civil Campaign_. A volume in the ongoing
> Vorkosigan series, which was strongly and explicitly influenced by
> Heyer, Austen, and Sayers.
Has several of the markers - but I dunno.....The love story thread I
think fits.
>
>* Pamela Dean
> * _Tam Lin_. Set in a small liberal-arts college, and based on the
> ballad.
>
>* Teresa Edgerton
> * _Goblin Moon_ and _The Gnome's Engine_. An alternate-world fantasy
> duology with a Regency flavor and a Lymond/Lord Peter type.
> * _The Queen's Necklace_. I haven't read it yet, but I understand it
> to be in a similar vein.
More adventurous than the first, IIRC. It didn't make a huge
impression on me.
>
>* Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series. I know nothing about these but
> that someone in the audience at Readercon recommended the books to
> me.
Another set that made minimal impression on me, but what I remember
says if you're going to count these, then your net is so broad as to
be meaningless.
>
>* Diana Wynne Jones
> * _Howl's Moving Castle_. Frankly, I didn't like this book, but it
> was mentioned at Readercon, so I include it for your
> consideration.
I did like it, and don't think it's a fantasy of manners, at all. As
with the Nightrunner series, if this counts your definition is way too
broad, or otherwise needs refining.
>
>* Andre Norton and Rosemary Edgehill, _The Shadow of Albion_ and
> _Leopard in Exile_. These were recommended to me at Readercon by the
> same person as above, and appear to be alternate history. On my
> to-read list.
They drove me up the wall with clumsinesses. But they come closer to
being novels of manners than several others listed.
> * _The Serpent's Egg_. A swashbuckling court fantasy.
See - swashbuckling doesn't go with manners, in pigeonholing. It may
be a court fantasy but not a mannered novel.
snip all others, I 'd only repeat what I've already said in further
comments.
--
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org>
Eric Jarvis
>
> Here's a first stab (also posted to my LJ for the people there to
> comment); any more suggestions, descriptions of things I haven't read,
> etc.? I'm hoping to put this up on a web site as a resource.
>
Family Bites by Lisa Williams
sf setting, werewolves and vampires, but a plot that is
largely concerned with social and sexual mores...sort of
Hammer House of Comedy of Manners
--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"Hey Lord don't ask me questions
There ain't no answer in me"
Christopher L. Taylor
> Prompted by a talk at Readercon (short account of which on my
> LiveJournal <http://kate-nepveu.livejournal.com/16643.html>), I
> thought I would draft up a reading list for the fantasy of manners /
> mannerpunk subgenres.
>
> To summarize, the structural markers are: negotiability and mutability
> of social structures, e.g., social mobility and disguises such as
> girl-as-boy and the foolish fop; coming of age; intimacy as a danger,
> one that the characters recognize yet strive to overcome; the
> importance of language, especially as manners; mixing of genres. As a
> corollary, the prose style tends to have a certain elegance and wit,
> particularly in the dialogue. I tend to identify it mostly by the
> style, but that's partly because I wasn't aware of the structural
> aspects until this weekend. =>
>
Sounds like it was an interesting panel. I think I would agree with you
that style is an important identifier. I can think of many novels that
feature one or more of the "structural markers" you mentioned and yet
clearly are not fantasy of manners (i.e. _The_Lord_of_the_Rings has
lots of disguises, one girl pretending to be a boy, coming of age for
the hobbits, especially Merry and Pippin). Of your list, the ones that
I would recognize as being fantasy of manners (leaving aside mannerpunk
because I don't know what is meant by that), I would recognize them
first and foremost because of the style.
As possible additions to your list, you may want to consider some of
Paula Volsky's novels. The recent _The_Grand_Ellipse_ by her may fit.
Also, not exactly a fantasy, but more a planetary romance of manners,
maybe the short story "The Moon Moth" by Jack Vance would fit, being
about manners even.
> * Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series. I know nothing about these but
> that someone in the audience at Readercon recommended the books to
> me.
>
I think these books, while good, lack the prose style for me to have
included them in this list.
> * John M. Ford
> * possibly _Growing Up Weightless_, a hard sf coming-of-age tale.
>
I wouldn't think this fits either....
> * Andre Norton and Rosemary Edgehill, _The Shadow of Albion_ and
> _Leopard in Exile_. These were recommended to me at Readercon by the
> same person as above, and appear to be alternate history. On my
> to-read list.
I enjoyed these and would definitely put them on the list.
> * Melissa Scott and Lisa A. Barnett, _Armor of Light_, _Point of
> Hopes_, _Point of Dreams_. On my to-read list.
>
Ditto these.
> * Caroline Stevermer: all of her novels under this name are fantasy of
> manners.
> * _The Serpent's Egg_. A swashbuckling court fantasy.
> * _A College of Magics_. Alternate early-20th c. fantasy.
> * _When the King Comes Home_. Alternate Renaissance fantasy, in the
> same world as _College_.
>
I was deeply disappointed by _When_the_King_Comes_Home_ so I may be
biased, but I wouldn't call it a fantasy of manners either.
-- Chris Taylor
Matt Hughes
> Prompted by a talk at Readercon (short account of which on my
> LiveJournal <http://kate-nepveu.livejournal.com/16643.html>), I
> thought I would draft up a reading list for the fantasy of manners /
> mannerpunk subgenres.
I do battle with my native shyness and offer my own two novels, Fools
Errant and Fool Me Twice, both from Warner Aspect in 2001 and combined
in an SFBC omnibus, Gullible's Travels. First chapters are on the
Warner website at:
http://www.twbookmark.com/books/43/0446609234/chapter_excerpt11237.html
and
http://www.twbookmark.com/books/44/0446609242/chapter_excerpt13179.html
They're about a fop named Filidor Vesh who makes reluctant odysseys
through a Vancean latter-day Earth, learning this and that from his
encounters with the odd societies that speckle Old Earth.
Matt Hughes
http://www.twbookmark.com/books/44/0446609242/chapter_excerpt13179.html
Next book, set in the same milieu but without Filidor, is Black
Brillion (Tor 2004) but we may change the title
Ethan Merritt
Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>mer...@u.washington.edu (Ethan Merritt) wrote:
>>In article <dtobhvohtred4qj8j...@news.verizon.net>,
>>Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>
>>>To summarize, the structural markers are: negotiability and mutability
>>>of social structures, e.g., social mobility and disguises such as
>>>girl-as-boy and the foolish fop; coming of age; intimacy as a danger,
>>>one that the characters recognize yet strive to overcome; the
>>>importance of language, especially as manners; mixing of genres. As a
>>>corollary, the prose style tends to have a certain elegance and wit,
>>>particularly in the dialogue. I tend to identify it mostly by the
>>>style, but that's partly because I wasn't aware of the structural
>>>aspects until this weekend. =>
>
>
>>_The Raven Ring_.
>
>Eh. I can sorta kinda see where you're going with this--and don't get
>me wrong, I really liked _The Raven Ring_--but I'm not convinced,
>style-wise. (I *said* it was going to be subjective.) Make the case
>for it?
Social structures -
A central theme is the clash of social structures between Cilhar and
(mumble - scene of action) society. Then we have two potential boy
friends, neither recognized as such by Eleret at first. Daner and
his family are stuck in a rigid social structure; Karvonen is a
marvel of social adaptability. And guess who is at Eleret's side as
they head off into the sunset at the end.
Disguises - check, also shape-shifting.
Intimacy as a danger - yes, though this is maybe cheating since in this
case it's physical danger rather than the emotional danger I imagine
you had in mind.
Style - well it's a YA title, or at least tied to the YA Lyra series,
and the style is less elegant and witty than, say, in
_Sorcery and Cecilia_. But there is an emphasis on the social and
verbal interactions rather than just on an action-driven plot, so I
think I can place a checkmark here also. But yes, if you go purely
by prose style then it's not such a strong case.
>>Also Francine Woodbury's _Shade and Shadow_, which I highly
>>recommend.
>
>More information, please?
English setting (Oxford). University political in-fighting as a
social milieu (Dons, Deans, some titled, some not).
Magic portrayed mostly as a dry academic study, although surely
there must be scads of it in daily use even though it is down-played
in the story. Our Hero, Raoul Smythe, is the son of a leading
society matron, but has been busy living it down as hard as he can.
Smythe dresses as a goth, hangs out in low-life pubs, and survives
academically on pure brilliance not quite outweighed by his social
ineptitude. Several women from various social strata have their eye
on Smythe, but he's afraid of involvement with any of them.
Oh - the plot. Well it seems that magic is studied and performed as
sort of an exercise in ancient linguistics. Book learning,
research on ancient runes, a little but not much experimental work
in pieces together new spells from old pieces - that sort of thing.
Smythe, ever the iconoclast, has decided to see if the linguistic
principles underlying magic are amenable to computer analysis.
The department chairman is apalled. He's also dead, struck down by
a blunt object. Smythe is the prime suspect, and things develop
from there. The existence of computers is the only element that
places the story in a time frame more modern than Regency, and it's
pretty much a McGuffin to give Smythe a research area looked down
upon by the old guard. The book works as a whodunnit, as well as
a comedy of manners, and even as cybergoth urban fantasy (for some
extremely mild version of 'cyber').
As far as the ISFDB knows, _Shade and Shadow_ is Woodbury's only
published work, which is a great pity.
--
Ethan A Merritt
Maureen O'Brien
Also, a great deal of Vance. Araminta Station, frex.
Re: swashbuckling/novel of manners --
Hmm. I think in many cases, they are the same thing. Sabatini, for
example, has a fairly decent number of books in which formal
behavior is maintained despite everything else going on. Heyer
does the same. Duels and the like are part of manners, aren't they?
OTOH, there are some swashbucklers in which the emphasis is on
_im_proper behavior and living outside society (and Society).
These would probably not count.
Of course, I may be influenced by the fact that some writers use a
novel of manners style to narrate adventures. This structural
definition is arriving a bit late in the day, while my style
definitions have been around for years.
Maureen
Maureen O'Brien
>As possible additions to your list, you may want to consider some
>of Paula Volsky's novels. The recent _The_Grand_Ellipse_ by her
>may fit.
Definitely _The Luck of Relian Kru_.
Maureen
Kate Nepveu
broken out mannerpunk, "honorary mentions," and unknowns. As I said
before, my personal definition of "fantasy of manners" relies heavily
on style. If you disagree with something on here, I'd love to hear
why--the more detail, the better--but I reserve the right to be
subjective about it.
Quick definition: fantasy of manners = _Swordspoint_; mannerpunk =
Bordertown.
I've added a few things, but only since this morning; there were
several other suggestions and expansions that I've left off since
they'd just go under "unknown."
Thanks for all the input.
_Fantasy of Manners_
* Steven Brust
* Khaavren series. Dumas pastiches.
* _The Phoenix Guards_
* _Five Hundred Years After_
* _The Paths of the Dead_
* _The Lord of Castle Black_ (forthcoming August 2003)
* _Sethra Lavode_ (forthcoming)
* Pamela Dean
* _Tam Lin_. Set in a small liberal-arts college, and based on the
ballad.
* possibly the Secret Country trilogy, which is a variant on
doorway-into-another-world.
* Teresa Edgerton
* _Goblin Moon_ and _The Gnome's Engine_. An alternate-world fantasy
duology with a Regency flavor and a Lymond/Lord Peter type.
* _The Queen's Necklace_. I haven't read it yet, but I understand it
to be in a similar vein.
* Diana Wynne Jones, _Howl's Moving Castle_. Frankly, I didn't like
this book, but it was mentioned at Readercon, so I include it for
your consideration.
* Ellen Kushner, all of her novels:
* _Swordspoint_. *The* classic fantasy of manners novel.
* _Thomas the Rhymer_, a ballad-based novel.
* _The Fall of the Kings_, co-written with Delia Sherman; set in the
same world as _Swordspoint_.
* Madeleine Robins, _Point of Honour_. Described as Austen noir at the
Readercon talk; first chapter online at Tor
<http://www.tor.com/samplepointofhonour.html>. On my to-read list.
* Delia Sherman, _The Porcelain Dove_. Haven't read this, either, but
it was mentioned at the Readercon talk. I am told that it belongs
under "fantasy of manners".
* Caroline Stevermer: all of her novels under this name are fantasy of
manners.
* _The Serpent's Egg_. A swashbuckling court fantasy.
* _A College of Magics_. Alternate early-20th c. fantasy.
* _When the King Comes Home_. Alternate Renaissance fantasy, in the
same world as _College_.
* Martha Wells
* _The Element of Fire_. A brilliant, sadly out-of-print court
swashbuckler (yes, I count "court" towards the style/manners
aspect).
* _The Death of the Necromancer_. Less brilliant, IMO, set later in
same city.
* Elizabeth Willey's novels: _The Well-Favored Man_, _A Sorceror and a
Gentleman_, _The Price of Blood and Honor_. These were summed up by
someone else as "Nice Princes in Amber"; I've only read the first,
and it didn't leave much of an impression. (There was some
disagreement over these?)
* Patricia Wrede and Caroline Stevermer
* _Sorcery and Cecilia_. Epistolary Regency-with-magic novel.
* _The Grand Tour_. The sequel, forthcoming 2004 (?).
* Patricia Wrede
* _Mairelon the Magician_ and _Magician's Ward_. Set in the same
universe as _Sorcery and Cecilia_.
* _Snow White and Rose Red_. An Elizabethan England fantasy.
_Honorary Mentions_ (Things that are close in some way to the above
list, yet don't quite seem to fit on it.)
* Steven Brust, _Issola_. The most recent in the Vlad Taltos series,
and quite literally a novel of manners. First-Person Smartass
narration.
* Steven Brust and Emma Bull, _Freedom and Necessity_. An epistolary
novel set in 1849 with a Lymond-type protagonist. It's ambiguous as
to whether there's magic.
* Lois McMaster Bujold, _A Civil Campaign_. A volume in the ongoing
science fiction Vorkosigan series, the plot of which was strongly
and explicitly influenced by Heyer, Austen, and Sayers.
* John M. Ford
* _The Dragon Waiting_. Alternate history of, inter alia, Richard
III and the Princes in the Tower.
* _The Last Hot Time). An urban fantasy closely related to the
Bordertown universe; I'm putting it under "Honorable Mention"
rather than "mannerpunk" because it feels more adult and less
"punk" to me.
* A.J. Hall, _Lust Over Pendle_. Novel-length Harry Potter fanfic,
summarized in part as "A comedy of manners, in the Golden Age
detective thriller genre, set in the year immediately after
Voldemort's fall." (I waver as to whether to put this in the
"Fantasy of Manners" category rather than here. I said this was
subjective.)
* Diana Wynne Jones, _Deep Secret_. I think it has a lot of the
structural elements, particularly disguise and language, and a bit
of the "feel."
* Walter Jon Williams' Drake Maijstral divertimenti: _The Crown
Jewels_, _House of Shards_, and _Rock of Ages_. Farcical caper/
comedy of manners sf novels.
_Mannerpunk_
* Holly Black, _Tithe_. I haven't read it, but the plot fixtures
appear to be similar to War for the Oaks.
* Emma Bull's non-Bordertown novels
* _War for the Oaks_. One of the classic works of urban fantasy.
* _Bone Dance_. Post-apocalyptic fantasy with an sf feel.
* Possibly her other novel, _Falcon_, though it's been long enough
since I read it that I'm not sure.
* Charles de Lint. To me these don't have the same prose style or
dialogue as the other urban fantasies listed, but they are close
cousins in terms of subject matter, so I put them down tentatively.
* Newford urban fantasies (numerous)
* _Jack of Kinrowan_
* The Bordertown shared universe, created by Terri Windling and Mark
Alan Arnold. Urban fantasy and the prototypical mannerpunk:
* Anthologies:
* _Borderland_
* _Bordertown_
* _Life on the Border_
* _The Essential Bordertown_
* Novels:
* Will Shetterly, _Elsewhere_ and _Nevernever_
* Emma Bull, _Finder_
_Unknown_ (These were recommended to me by various people, but I
haven't read them and don't know enough about them to classify them)
* Lynn Flewelling's Nightrunner series. I know nothing about these but
that someone in the audience at Readercon recommended the books to
me.
* Andre Norton and Rosemary Edgehill, _The Shadow of Albion_ and
_Leopard in Exile_. These were recommended to me at Readercon by the
same person as above, and appear to be alternate history. On my
to-read list.
* Melissa Scott and Lisa A. Barnett, _Armor of Light_, _Point of
Hopes_, _Point of Dreams_. On my to-read list.
* Liz Williams, _The Poison Master_. Recommended by someone else; from
David Kennedy's review here, this appears to be a cross-genre mix of
alchemy, sf, and some other things. He reports that the prose is
fairly straightforward.
* Francine Woodbury, _Shade and Shadow_.
Konrad Gaertner
>
> Re: swashbuckling/novel of manners --
>
> Hmm. I think in many cases, they are the same thing. Sabatini, for
> example, has a fairly decent number of books in which formal
> behavior is maintained despite everything else going on. Heyer
> does the same. Duels and the like are part of manners, aren't they?
In this vein, would Moran's _The Long Run_ count? There its not
what you do, but how you do it.
Of course, I'm not sure I understand exactly what's being talked
about... frex, I don't see how _Bone Dance_ and _War for the Oaks_
have anything to do with manners.
--KG
Maureen O'Brien
>* A.J. Hall, _Lust Over Pendle_. Novel-length Harry Potter fanfic,
> summarized in part as "A comedy of manners, in the Golden Age
> detective thriller genre, set in the year immediately after
> Voldemort's fall." (I waver as to whether to put this in the
> "Fantasy of Manners" category rather than here. I said this was
> subjective.)
I can see this. I'd also mention the wonderful X-Files fanfic
"The Light in the Tower at Mulder Manor" by Peni R. Griffin and
Devi XF. :)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/5318/g-m/manor.htm
One supposes that Sharon Shinn's Jane Eyre sf retelling, Jenna
Starborn, would qualify for mannerpunk. Maybe that Summers at
Castle whatever, too, though I don't recall the style very
strongly.
Maureen
Richard Horton
<Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote:
>Kate Nepveu wrote:
>>
>>* Andre Norton and Rosemary Edgehill, _The Shadow of Albion_ and
>> _Leopard in Exile_. These were recommended to me at Readercon by the
>> same person as above, and appear to be alternate history. On my
>> to-read list.
>
>They drove me up the wall with clumsinesses. But they come closer to
>being novels of manners than several others listed.
I only read the first, and I thought it rather poor. But it should be
noted that "Rosemary Edghill" (note spelling) wrote several Regencies
-- and her Regencies are really rather nice.
Somebody brought up Alexei Panshin's Villiers books. I assumed these
were not what Kate wanted -- as they are SF, not Fantasy. They are
quite wonderful, though, and very mannered. Once we mention them, we
might as well mention Walter Jon Williams's Drake Maijstral
divertissements.
--
Rich Horton | Stable Email: mailto://richard...@sff.net
Home Page: http://www.sff.net/people/richard.horton
Also visit SF Site (http://www.sfsite.com) and Tangent Online (http://www.tangentonline.com)
skg
mer...@u.washington.edu says...
> >>Also Francine Woodbury's _Shade and Shadow_, which I highly
> >>recommend.
Thanks for your description! Sounds v. interesting.
There's a sample chapter online here--
http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/sample/shadeshadow.html
--but the book seems to have gone the way of Stevermer's _Serpent's
Egg_; many libraries have passed it up, including UC Riverside's Eaton
collection. Strange.
sharon
Kate Nepveu
>Somebody brought up Alexei Panshin's Villiers books. I assumed these
>were not what Kate wanted -- as they are SF, not Fantasy. They are
>quite wonderful, though, and very mannered. Once we mention them, we
>might as well mention Walter Jon Williams's Drake Maijstral
>divertissements.
The Maijstral books are under "Honorary Mention" at the moment (and
now I wonder, should that be "Honorable Mention"?), and I think the
Villiers books would fit nicely there as well.
Kate Nepveu
[...]
>Re: swashbuckling/novel of manners --
>Hmm. I think in many cases, they are the same thing. Sabatini, for
>example, has a fairly decent number of books in which formal
>behavior is maintained despite everything else going on. Heyer
>does the same. Duels and the like are part of manners, aren't they?
[...]
Yes, that's what I was thinking, thank you. I think Brust's Khaavren
books, the Dumas pastiches, are good examples of this. I admit I may
be lumping most swashbucklers with court settings into this category,
but I'm re-reading _Element of Fire_ soon (joy! I have a cheap copy
for loan if someone wants, btw), so I shall see.
Kate Nepveu
>In article <bf6ttt$k59$1...@brogar.bmsc.washington.edu>,
>mer...@u.washington.edu says...
>> >>Also Francine Woodbury's _Shade and Shadow_, which I highly
>> >>recommend.
>[add'l info munched]
>Thanks for your description! Sounds v. interesting.
>There's a sample chapter online here--
> http://www.randomhouse.com/delrey/sampleshadeshadow.html
>--but the book seems to have gone the way of Stevermer's _Serpent's
>Egg_; many libraries have passed it up, including UC Riverside's Eaton
>collection. Strange.
But there are many copies cheap online; I've just bought one, as a
matter of fact. Thanks!
Peter D. Tillman
Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
> Okay, second stab at a reading list for fantasy of manners books. I've
> broken out mannerpunk, "honorary mentions," and unknowns. As I said
> before, my personal definition of "fantasy of manners" relies heavily
> on style. If you disagree with something on here, I'd love to hear
> why--the more detail, the better--but I reserve the right to be
> subjective about it.
>
> Quick definition: fantasy of manners = _Swordspoint_; mannerpunk =
> Bordertown.
James Branch Cabell: JURGEN would almost certainly qualify as a FoM:
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/CABELL/title.htm
(worth the wait for the frontispiece art)
"Of JURGEN eke they maken mencioun,
That of an old wyf gat his youthe agoon,
And gat himselfe a shirte as bright as fyre
Wherein to jape, yet gat not his desire
In any countrie ne condicioun."
Time for a JURGEN reread, I think....
--and RAH's JOB: a Comedy Of Justice, which is clearly inspired by
JURGEN (which is also subtitled "A Comedy of Justice"), though it veers
off into crypto-religious fantasy.
Back to JBC: Figures of Earth, The Silver Stallion and Something About
Eve would also qualify as FoMs, I think, and doubtless others from the
many Cabells I haven't read.
Following are the basic Cabell websites:
http://users.aol.com/s6sj7gt/mikecab.htm
http://www.library.vcu.edu/jbc/speccoll/exhibit/cabell/jbclife.html
http://greatsfandf.com/AUTHORS/BranchCabell.shtml
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/1460/mundus.html
David Lindsay's A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS is certainly mannered (and weird),
but may be too sui generis for an official FoM. Also a crypto-religious
fantasy, which, come to think of it, applies to much of Cabell.
Ernest Bramah: you can't get much more mannered than the KAI LUNG books:
http://www.massmedia.com/~mikeb/bramah/
which leads to Barry Hughart's BRIDGE OF BIRDS et seq.
Cheers -- Pete Tillman
Book Reviews: http://www.silcom.com/~manatee/reviewer.html#tillman
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/cm/member-reviews/-/A3GHSD9VY8XS4Q/
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/iplus/nonfiction/index.htm#reviews
http://www.sfsite.com/revwho.htm
Eveleen McAuley
"Kate Nepveu" <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote
> Okay, second stab at a reading list for fantasy of manners books.
Wouldn't the Sherwood smith books, Crown Duel and Court Duel, be suitable
as well?
Court Duel especially seems to ahve most of the features you listed.
Eveleen
Kate Nepveu
>> Okay, second stab at a reading list for fantasy of manners books.
>Wouldn't the Sherwood smith books, Crown Duel and Court Duel, be suitable
>as well?
I don't know, they're currently on the in-pile stack. I shall add them
to "unknown," thank you.
Eveleen McAuley
"Kate Nepveu" <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote
> "Eveleen McAuley" <emca...@esatclear.ie> wrote:
> >Wouldn't the Sherwood smith books, Crown Duel and Court Duel, be
suitable
> >as well?
>
> I don't know, they're currently on the in-pile stack. I shall add them
> to "unknown," thank you.
>
They were books I read on the recommendation of someone here, and I had a
vague idea it was you!
Eveleen
Kate Nepveu
Nope, I read her Wren trilogy which I thought ought to be really good
yet wasn't, and the Exordium books (co-written with Dave Trowbridge)
that I thought were great.
Kate Nepveu
>In article <gk3dhvo3l35d3blot...@news.verizon.net>,
>Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>>>Also Francine Woodbury's _Shade and Shadow_, which I highly
>>>recommend.
>>More information, please?
>English setting (Oxford). University political in-fighting as a
>social milieu (Dons, Deans, some titled, some not).
>Magic portrayed mostly as a dry academic study, although surely
>there must be scads of it in daily use even though it is down-played
>in the story.
[...]
Thanks for the long description. I have a copy on order. Until I get
it and read it, I'll link to this from the list?
Kate Nepveu
>I'm curious about this, Kate. I haven't read a one of these, but your
>description sounds a lot like Shakespearean comedy or maybe how it was
>transformed into Restoration comedy. Does there seem to be direct
>influence from those writers? Seems like someone interested in writing
>this would get a lot of inspiration from Congreve, among others.
Unfortunately, I'm really not that up on either my Shakespeare or my
tracing of influences. Sorry--perhaps if any of the authors are
lurking?
Influences Keller did mention at the talk: ballads; Dunnett; large
quantities of fantasy backlist being in print; _The Man from
U.N.C.L.E._ IIRC; swashbuckling movies?.
Kate Nepveu
I've been meaning to read something by her for a while; what are these
like?
Kate Nepveu
>>* A.J. Hall, _Lust Over Pendle_. Novel-length Harry Potter fanfic,
>> summarized in part as "A comedy of manners, in the Golden Age
>> detective thriller genre, set in the year immediately after
>> Voldemort's fall." (I waver as to whether to put this in the
>> "Fantasy of Manners" category rather than here. I said this was
>> subjective.)
>I can see this. I'd also mention the wonderful X-Files fanfic
>"The Light in the Tower at Mulder Manor" by Peni R. Griffin and
>Devi XF. :)
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/5318/g-m/manor.htm
I'll put it on the list, though I couldn't really get into it.
>One supposes that Sharon Shinn's Jane Eyre sf retelling, Jenna
>Starborn, would qualify for mannerpunk. Maybe that Summers at
>Castle whatever, too, though I don't recall the style very
>strongly.
I've basically stopped reading Shinn these days, honestly. The Jane
Eyre retelling (a concept which in general makes me shudder, _The Eyre
Affair_ notwithstanding) probably should be an honorary mention?
David Tate
>
> Also, a great deal of Vance. Araminta Station, frex.
There are some even more striking examples than _Araminta Station_, I
think. Works that are either explicitly fantasy, or science fiction
of the "notional superscience indistinguishable from magic" variety.
_LYONESSE_ has to be the big winner here. Coming of age,
swashbuckling, restoration of the true King, intense focus on issues
of class, race, religion, and nationality, and extended passages of
mannered dialog concerning all issues great and small. This is every
bit as much an exemplar as SWORDSPOINT, in my mind.
To that, add _MASKE: THAERY_ and "The Moon Moth" and _NIGHT LAMP_ and
the three _ALASTOR_ novelets and pretty much the entire DEMON PRINCES
cycle.
Others:
Someone else mentioned Barry Hughart's Master Li / Number Ten Ox
novels, and their inspiration in Bramah's "Kai Lung" tales, and
Cabell's Poictesme stories. I agree with all of those.
A fair bit of Avram Davidson probably qualifies here, too. The "Dr.
Eszterhazy" stories and the Peregrine novels, certainly. Also the
Vergil Magus stories, in large part. "The Lord of Central Park",
probably.
I think the Liaden novels of Sharon Lee and Steve Miller clearly
qualify, as well. When a character can choose to speak in the mode
reserved for a noble youth addressing a revered mentor, you're pretty
likely to be in the middle of a comedy of manners, or at least a
mannered work.
Janet Kagan's novel _HELLSPARK_ might qualify -- certainly the society
in which the novel is set is a perfect setting for such works, though
that particular novel mostly takes place outside its confines.
As an unlikely source, you might consider things like David Drake's
"Lt. Leary" novels. They're directly borrowed from the tradition of
Napoleonic-Wars-Era Royal Navy fiction, which is about as mannered a
society as can be imagined. While no SF versions have approached the
quality of Patrick O'Brian, such a hypothetical work would surely
qualify for your list.
Shall we start a thread-hijacking debate on whether _THE LORD OF THE
RINGS_ counts?
David Tate
Chris Camfield
of Brust's books, Martha Wells', _Mairelon the Magician_ and _The Magician's
Ward_, _Howl's Moving Castle_, Emma Bull's and Charles de Lint's books and some
Bordertown stuff.) and I see more differences than similarities between these
works. Calling a novel a "fantasy of manners" makes me expect more something
like Wrede than a swashbuckler.
Small point: _Falcon_ is an out-and-out science fiction novel.
Chris
Tilman Bohn
of your definitions, but would Connie Willis's _To Say Nothing Of The
Dog_ count?
--
Cheers, Tilman
`Prepare to continue the epic struggle between good and neutral!'
-- Zapp Brannigan
Christopher L. Taylor
> Maureen O'Brien <mob...@dnaco.net> wrote:
>
>>"Christopher L. Taylor" wrote:
>
>
>>>As possible additions to your list, you may want to consider some
>>>of Paula Volsky's novels. The recent _The_Grand_Ellipse_ by her
>>>may fit.
>>
>
>>Definitely _The Luck of Relian Kru_.
>
>
> I've been meaning to read something by her for a while; what are these
> like?
>
Volsky has written a number of books that appear to take place
in the same world, but in vastly different eras and locations
in that world, so at first it may not seem like they are related.
They often feature a romance between two people from different
cultures, or else different social classes. These books often
appear to be based on specific periods in our history.
_The_Grand_Ellipse_ takes place in a period similar to 1880 - 1900's
in our world in terms of technology and politics, and describes a
race to complete a loop around the world that hits all the major
countries and civilizations. During this race there is a lot of
political intrigue and some magic going on.
_The_Gates_of_Twilight_ takes place earlier in the world, and reminded
me of the colonial occupation of India by the U.K., only the local
inhabitants have magic to help them against the superior technology of
the colonizers.
_The_Wolf_of_Winter_ takes place in a country that feels a lot like
Russia. It has a sort of Gothic flavor to it, with lots of haunted
castles, ghosts, etc... Deals with the magic of necromancy and a
struggle for the throne of the kingdom.
_Illusion_ is the French Revolution, only where the nobility have a
hereditary magic that keeps them in power, until the events of this
book.
_The_White_Tribunal_ is the story of a kingdom under a reign of terror
of the titular body, which is dedicated to wiping out sorcery. It
is also a revenge story, in which an innocent family is accused of
sorcery so the Tribunal can appropriate their wealth.
I don't think Volsky's other books take place on the same world, and I
haven't read them, so I can't speak to their suitability for your list.
Of the ones I listed above, _The_Grand_Ellipse_ is the most likely
candidate, followed by _Illusion_.
-- Chris Taylor
Maureen O'Brien
Wrong. Her other books take place in the "Middle Ages" of the
same world. You'll have to look closely, but the same placenames
keep coming up -- usually only a couple per book from a previous
book. But it's enough to tell. Somewhere I have a list of all the
placenames and directions...but I can't find it. (Sigh.)
The Luck of Relian Kru is all about a young gentleman with very
bad luck. Hilarity and chaos ensues. He also visits a rather large
amount of territory, which is useful in establishing the world.
Neraunce and Nidroon are prominent, IIRC.
It's somewhat similar in conceit (but not in plot) to her first
book, The Curse of the Witch Queen, which is about a chain of
Houses cursed by each other. It takes place in Obran, Szar, Strell
and suchlike places. (Del Rey, 1982. I think there was a later
hardcover, too.)
The Sorcerer's Lady, The Sorcerer's Heir, and The Sorcerer's Curse
center on that Venice-like lake city with the double name. (Well,
okay, the first one does. Then the Sorcerer kicks the bucket and
his wife and kid flee, and I haven't read those two.)
I have a feeling she wrote at least one other book, but I can't recall a
title. Maybe I'm imagining it.
Maureen, who clearly needs to find her Volsky placename file.
Kate Nepveu
>Maureen O'Brien <mob...@dnaco.net> wrote in message news:<3F173016...@dnaco.net>...
>> Also, a great deal of Vance. Araminta Station, frex.
>There are some even more striking examples than _Araminta Station_, I
>think. Works that are either explicitly fantasy, or science fiction
>of the "notional superscience indistinguishable from magic" variety.
>_LYONESSE_ has to be the big winner here. [...]
Thanks for the suggestions.
>Others:
>Someone else mentioned Barry Hughart's Master Li / Number Ten Ox
>novels, and their inspiration in Bramah's "Kai Lung" tales, and
>Cabell's Poictesme stories. I agree with all of those.
Hmmm, well, those feel "honorary mention"-ish to me. But point taken.
[...]
>I think the Liaden novels of Sharon Lee and Steve Miller clearly
>qualify, as well. When a character can choose to speak in the mode
>reserved for a noble youth addressing a revered mentor, you're pretty
>likely to be in the middle of a comedy of manners, or at least a
>mannered work.
I thought about these, and initially left them off because the style
isn't really what I had in mind. But you're right that manners are
very important to it.
[snip rest]
Richard Boye'
>
> Kate Nepveu wrote:
> > Maureen O'Brien <mob...@dnaco.net> wrote:
> >
> >>"Christopher L. Taylor" wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>As possible additions to your list, you may want to consider some
> >>>of Paula Volsky's novels. The recent _The_Grand_Ellipse_ by her
> >>>may fit.
> >>
> >
> >>Definitely _The Luck of Relian Kru_.
> >
> >
> > I've been meaning to read something by her for a while; what are these
> > like?
> >
>
> Volsky has written a number of books that appear to take place
> in the same world, but in vastly different eras and locations
> in that world, so at first it may not seem like they are related.
> They often feature a romance between two people from different
> cultures, or else different social classes. These books often
> appear to be based on specific periods in our history.
Good suggestion.
> _The_Grand_Ellipse_ takes place in a period similar to 1880 - 1900's
> in our world in terms of technology and politics, and describes a
> race to complete a loop around the world that hits all the major
> countries and civilizations. During this race there is a lot of
> political intrigue and some magic going on.
>
> _The_Gates_of_Twilight_ takes place earlier in the world, and reminded
> me of the colonial occupation of India by the U.K., only the local
> inhabitants have magic to help them against the superior technology of
> the colonizers.
What the interesting thing is that _Illiusion_ is basically the French
Revolution with magic as Vonahr=France, but _The Gates of Twilight_ is
set in an "India" that has been colonized by the Vonahri (French), not
the English analogue.
> _The_Wolf_of_Winter_ takes place in a country that feels a lot like
> Russia. It has a sort of Gothic flavor to it, with lots of haunted
> castles, ghosts, etc... Deals with the magic of necromancy and a
> struggle for the throne of the kingdom.
I had no idea that there were more than three novels set in that world.
> _The_White_Tribunal_ is the story of a kingdom under a reign of terror
> of the titular body, which is dedicated to wiping out sorcery. It
> is also a revenge story, in which an innocent family is accused of
> sorcery so the Tribunal can appropriate their wealth.
Is this new?
Oh, Kate, I just was hit with a suggestion - Connie Willis' _To Say
Nothing of the Dog_ a screwball time-travel escapade set mostly in
Victorian England.
--
Richard M. Boye' * wa...@webspan.net
Typing into the Void:
http://www.webspan.net/~waldo/books/blogger.html
"Some men lead lives of quiet desperation.
My desperation makes a pathetic whining sound."
Nancy Lebovitz
Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>mer...@u.washington.edu (Ethan Merritt) wrote:
>>Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org> wrote:
>
>>>To summarize, the structural markers are: negotiability and mutability
>>>of social structures, e.g., social mobility and disguises such as
>>>girl-as-boy and the foolish fop; coming of age; intimacy as a danger,
>>>one that the characters recognize yet strive to overcome; the
>>>importance of language, especially as manners; mixing of genres. As a
>>>corollary, the prose style tends to have a certain elegance and wit,
>>>particularly in the dialogue. I tend to identify it mostly by the
>>>style, but that's partly because I wasn't aware of the structural
>>>aspects until this weekend. =>
>
>>And if you are going to include _A Civil Campaign_,
>>which seems well out of the usual domain of either fantasy or
>><foo>punk, then surely you must also list Doris Egan's _Gate of Ivory_
>>and its sequels.
>
>I waffled about _ACC_, but the plot is so much a comedy of manners
>that . . . I think it's going on the "honorary mention" sublist (along
>with _Issola_ and the Drake Maajstral books) when I break up the list
>tonight.
You might also include Panshin's Villiers novels (_Star Well_, _The
Thurb Revolution_, _Masque World_--the beginning of a seven book
series which will never be completed)--they've at least got the
focus on manners, the distanced tone, and disguises.
--
Nancy Lebovitz na...@netaxs.com www.nancybuttons.com
Now, with bumper stickers
Using your turn signal is not "giving information to the enemy"
Nancy Lebovitz
Elaine Thompson <Ela...@KEThompson.org> wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 00:20:56 GMT, Kate Nepveu <kne...@steelypips.org>
>wrote:
>
>>Prompted by a talk at Readercon (short account of which on my
>>LiveJournal <http://kate-nepveu.livejournal.com/16643.html>), I
>>thought I would draft up a reading list for the fantasy of manners /
>>mannerpunk subgenres.
>>To summarize, the structural markers are: negotiability and mutability
>>of social structures, e.g., social mobility and disguises such as
>>girl-as-boy and the foolish fop; coming of age; intimacy as a danger,
>>one that the characters recognize yet strive to overcome; the
>>importance of language, especially as manners; mixing of genres. As a
>>corollary, the prose style tends to have a certain elegance and wit,
>>particularly in the dialogue. I tend to identify it mostly by the
>>style, but that's partly because I wasn't aware of the structural
>>aspects until this weekend. =>
>>
>
>markers seem awfully broad - Coming of age, or mixing of genres frex.
>so the people defining this must have meant the all or most of these
>in combination add up to a 'manners' story?
>
Is it possible that a real "of manners" story should be about relatively
low stakes, at least by sf standards? This may fit in with the coolness
of tone--it can be about whether the characters will have happy lives,
but the fate of the world shouldn't hinge on anyone's decisions.
Nancy Lebovitz
Peter D. Tillman <til...@aztec.asu.edu> wrote:
>
>David Lindsay's A VOYAGE TO ARCTURUS is certainly mannered (and weird),
>but may be too sui generis for an official FoM. Also a crypto-religious
>fantasy, which, come to think of it, applies to much of Cabell.
It might be mannered (I'd want to know how you're defining that), but
it's only about manners to the extent that it's against them.
Kate Nepveu
>Is it possible that a real "of manners" story should be about relatively
>low stakes, at least by sf standards? This may fit in with the coolness
>of tone--it can be about whether the characters will have happy lives,
>but the fate of the world shouldn't hinge on anyone's decisions.
I'm still struggling towards a definition of the style I mean, but
that does seem to be an element of the structure.
Tilman Bohn
Richard Boye' wrote on Wed, 23 Jul 2003 00:56:02 GMT:
[...]
> Oh, Kate, I just was hit with a suggestion - Connie Willis' _To Say
> Nothing of the Dog_ a screwball time-travel escapade set mostly in
> Victorian England.
Yeah I mentioned that a few days back. I think it would definitely
count. Class boundaries play a decisive role, genres get mixed, there
is a certain danger in intimacy (though the way how one would expect),
language is of some import, and it even has disguises (of sorts).