viral words
howard richler
because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
expression. The only ones that come to mind are...
kith (as in kith and kin)
scot (as in scot-free)
poke (as in pig in a poke)
cranny (as in nook and cranny)
fangled (as in new-fangled)
shrift (as in short shrift)
Others?
Raymond S. Wise
news:feb755de.03071...@posting.google.com...
I'm not sure "viral word" is appropriate, as these words have little chance
of replicating themselves. They're more like "fossil words." And what are we
to make of "being part of a larger word"? Does this include the "gruntled"
in "disgruntled"? If so, you can probably find a whole lot of words like
that.
Anyway, the "hue" of "hue and cry" would appear to be an example of the sort
of thing you're looking for.
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Se...@juno.com
wrote:
>I'm trying to make a list of words that I've designated as "viral"
>because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
>expression. The only ones that come to mind are...
>
>
>kith (as in kith and kin)
kith and kin. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English
Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.
...1. One's acquaintances and relatives. 2. One's relatives. Middle
English kith, from Old English cth, kinsfolk, neighbors. See gno- in
Appendix I. Kith is obsolete...
>scot (as in scot-free)
Great Scot!
Scots wa hae' wi Wallace bled
The Scot is the noblest form of humanity.
scot. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language:
Fourth Edition. 2000.
...assessed or paid. Middle English, tax, partly from Old Norse
skotand partly from Old French escot, of Germanic origin. See skeud-
in Appendix I....
9) native. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language:
Fourth Edition. 2000.
...belonging to one by nature; innate: native ability. 2. Being such
by birth or origin: a native Scot. 3. Being one's own because of the
place or circumstances of one's...
>poke (as in pig in a poke)
Don't poke around in that drawer!
Carry this food home in your poke.
>cranny (as in nook and cranny)
Red hot cranny (ok, couldn't resist!)
>fangled (as in new-fangled)
>shrift (as in short shrift)
) shrift. The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language:
Fourth Edition. 2000.
...The act of shriving. 2. Confession to a priest. 3. Absolution given
by a priest. See Note at short shrift. Middle English, from Old
English scrift, from Latin scrptum,...
>Others?
I realize that some of these are obsolete or not very current, but it
sure was fun looking them up!
--
Selma
tomca...@yanospamhoo.com
>>poke (as in pig in a poke)
> Don't poke around in that drawer!
> Carry this food home in your poke.
Have some more poke salat.
Christian Weisgerber
> I'm trying to make a list of words that I've designated as "viral"
> because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
> expression.
cray- as in crayfish
cran- as in cranberry
-sam as in flotsam and jetsam
were- as in werewolf
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
james g
John Smith
>
> "howard richler" <hric...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:feb755de.03071...@posting.google.com...
> > I'm trying to make a list of words that I've designated as "viral"
> > because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
> > expression. The only ones that come to mind are...
> >
> >
> > kith (as in kith and kin)
> > scot (as in scot-free)
> > poke (as in pig in a poke)
> > cranny (as in nook and cranny)
> > fangled (as in new-fangled)
> > shrift (as in short shrift)
I use, and hear used, "cranny" and "poke" as ordinary words. "What a
poke o' doodoo!" (= what a sack of shit). And "shrift" is an ordinary
obsolete word that I understand. "Do you have leave to go to shrift
today?" The nurse says that in Romeo and Juliet. In the movie, too.
\\P. Schultz
Charles A. Burge
[...]
Rhode (Island)
(dis)combobulated
(un)sung (hero)
--
Regards,
Charles A. Burge
------------------------
If tyranny and oppresion ever come to
this land, it will be in the guise of
fighting a foreign enemy. -- James Madison
David Thomas
hric...@sympatico.ca (howard richler) writes:
>kith (as in kith and kin)
>scot (as in scot-free)
>poke (as in pig in a poke)
>cranny (as in nook and cranny)
>fangled (as in new-fangled)
>shrift (as in short shrift)
>
>Others?
I don't know... I've heard quite a few of those separately, especially cranny,
shrift, poke, and scot. Kith I can't ever recall hearing without its other
baggage, and fangled seems to have been reanalyzed by some authors, where I've
even read 'old-fangled,' despite that the intention with the expression was, of
course, humourous...
Sleep, Fate, Death, and I sat one sunday down at tea.
Fate offered up his Ziggy mug before I poured,
Sleep yawned in his PJs, seeming mildly bored,
And Death politely asked, "Another pirouline?"
- Vae
David Thomas
Weisgerber) writes:
>cray- as in crayfish
>cran- as in cranberry
>-sam as in flotsam and jetsam
>were- as in werewolf
>
>--
>Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
While we're on this, just for my edification, would someone mind telling me
just where the word 'handsome' comes from? It's one seeming compound that I
just don't understand...
NimDrauG
> While we're on this, just for my edification, would someone mind telling
> me
> just where the word 'handsome' comes from? It's one seeming compound that
> I just don't understand...
Oldenglish -> Handsum
Hand is obvious and -some or -sum is a just a suffix".
The old meaning of handsome is "usefull".
Other Oldenglish words with -sum are "Hiersum", meaning obedient (Hearsome)
or "Wynnsum", meaning delightfull or pleasant. (winsome)
Other related languages uses the same suffix are German; -zahm, Dutch;
-zaam, Frisian; -sum
In modern English the suffix -some isn't as productive as in like Dutch or
Frisian.
NImDrauG.
--
L: FY,nl,af,en,de,is,fo,no,da,sv <es,it> S: FY,nl,en <de,no,sv>
mail `echo xnxixmxd...@xexuxrxoxnxextx.xnxlx | sed 's/x//g'`
David Thomas
<sp...@abuse.net> writes:
>Oldenglish -> Handsum
>Hand is obvious and -some or -sum is a just a suffix".
>The old meaning of handsome is "usefull".
>Other Oldenglish words with -sum are "Hiersum", meaning obedient (Hearsome)
>or "Wynnsum", meaning delightfull or pleasant. (winsome)
>Other related languages uses the same suffix are German; -zahm, Dutch;
>-zaam, Frisian; -sum
>In modern English the suffix -some isn't as productive as in like Dutch or
>Frisian.
>
>NImDrauG.
I had actually understood the compounding. I just didn't quite get where the
semantic shift came in. 'Useful' to 'cute?' Strange, methinks.
NimDrauG
> In article <3f165790$0$28909$1b62...@news.euronet.nl>, NimDrauG
> <sp...@abuse.net> writes:
>
>>Oldenglish -> Handsum
>>Hand is obvious and -some or -sum is a just a suffix".
>>The old meaning of handsome is "usefull".
>>Other Oldenglish words with -sum are "Hiersum", meaning obedient
>>(Hearsome) or "Wynnsum", meaning delightfull or pleasant. (winsome)
>>Other related languages uses the same suffix are German; -zahm, Dutch;
>>-zaam, Frisian; -sum
>>In modern English the suffix -some isn't as productive as in like Dutch or
>>Frisian.
>>
>>NImDrauG.
>
> I had actually understood the compounding. I just didn't quite get where
> the
> semantic shift came in. 'Useful' to 'cute?' Strange, methinks.
Well, Frisian, Dutch have the same word.
Hânsum, Handzaam. and all they mean usefull/proper or handy.
Perhaps you should think of "proper", "nice" and that shifted to "cute".
I found a nice link about
http://www.bard.org/SectionEducate/WordsWords.html
wich tells:
"Unlocking the meaning of Shakespeare's vocabulary can prove to be an
interesting challenge. Such words include those which "have dropped from
common use like 'bisson' (blind) or those that the playwright seems to have
created from Latin roots . . . but that did not catch on, such as
conspectuities' (eyesight or vision) or 'unplausive' (doubtful or
disapproving). Especially confusing are those words that have _shifted_
_meaning_ over the intervening centuries, such as 'proper' (handsome),
'nice' (squeamish or delicate), 'silly' (innocent), or 'cousin' (kinsman,
that is, not necessarily the child of an aunt or uncle" (McDonald 184).
Because of semantic change, when Shakespeare uses 'conceit,' he does not
mean 'vanity,' as we might understand it to be. Strictly following
etymology, Shakespeare means a 'conception' or 'notion,' or possibly the
'imagination' itself."
howard richler
"Poke" is an archaic word for "small sack."
rzed
Where "archaic" means "I don't use the term." It's still heard
relatively commonly in parts of the U.S., such as South Carolina
(where I once lived), or Virginia (where I now live). It's clearly not
majority usage, but I wonder whether "sack" is, either. It seems to me
that "bag" has seized the flexible-container high ground.
--
rzed
Jon and Mary Miller
>howard richler <hric...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>>I'm trying to make a list of words that I've designated as "viral"
>>because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
>>expression.
>>
>>
>
>cray- as in crayfish
>cran- as in cranberry
>-sam as in flotsam and jetsam
>were- as in werewolf
>
>
Also wes-, wem-, and wen-, encountered when declining der werwolf.
http://mitglied.lycos.de/fenris_wolfpage/werwolf.html
Jon Miller
John Lawler
>Others?
There are lots more.
They're called "cranberry morphs" in the trade.
A Google search on that can be rewarding.
For instance, see
http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/ling201/test1materials/Review_HANDOUT2TEST1.htm
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler Michigan Linguistics
------------------------------------------------------------------
"The relation between logic and thought is similar to that between
medicine and health. If you're healthy, medicine is useless, but
if you're ill, medicine can sometimes help. However, you have
to take just the right medicine in just the right dosage, there
may be unpleasant side effects, and it can be habit-forming."
-- James D. McCawley
Jacqui
> I'm trying to make a list of words that I've designated as "viral"
> because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
> expression. The only ones that come to mind are...
>
> poke (as in pig in a poke)
A poke of chips (BrE chips, that is).
Jac
Se...@juno.com
"Sack" is used in some states, where I would say "bag" but I can't
remember which. Anybody?
--
Selma
Ron Hardin
> > > I'm trying to make a list of words that I've designated as "viral"
> > > because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
> > > expression. The only ones that come to mind are...
> > >
> > >
> > > kith (as in kith and kin)
> > > scot (as in scot-free)
> > > poke (as in pig in a poke)
> > > cranny (as in nook and cranny)
> > > fangled (as in new-fangled)
> > > shrift (as in short shrift)
> > >
> > poke?
>
> "Poke" is an archaic word for "small sack."
_Laughter in a Damp Climate_ probably from 1940, a collection of Punch stuff
I think, two pigs inspecting a held sack
Maurice: Alphonse! Don't go in there! It's a poke!
Alphonse: But Maurice, there's garbage in there!
--
Ron Hardin
rhha...@mindspring.com
On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
M. J. Powell
<sirlawren...@hotmail.com> writes
You buy chips by the sackfull?
Mike
--
M.J.Powell
Jacqui
> Jacqui writes
>>howard richler wibbled
>>
>>> I'm trying to make a list of words that I've designated as "viral"
>>> because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
>>> expression. The only ones that come to mind are...
>>>
>>> poke (as in pig in a poke)
>>
>>A poke of chips (BrE chips, that is).
>
> You buy chips by the sackfull?
A small sack, yes. A little greaseproof paper bag or a cone could
easily be a poke o'chips.
Jac
howard richler
Riddles
1)What goes up but never comes down?
2)What can you catch but can't throw"
3)What can go around the world but stays in a corner"
4)What gets wetter and wetter the more it dries?
5)I'm light as a feather but nobody can hold me for more than a
minute?
6)Give me food and I'll live; give me water and I'll die. What am I?
7)I'm where yesterday follows today and tomorrow is in the middle.
What am I?
THe OED states that "poke" in "Scotland is applied to the bags or
wallets in which a gaberlunzie or beggar carried provisions and
portable property." Is this sense still current in Scotland?
Prai Jei
news:3F16204A...@company.com...
> I use, and hear used, "cranny" and "poke" as ordinary words. "What a
> poke o' doodoo!" (= what a sack of shit).
"Poke" is just the basic word meaning "bag" or "sack", of which "pocket" is
a diminutive. The proverbial pig was bought "in the poke" i.e. unseen, so if
the buyer did not examine his new goods on the spot the contents of the poke
would turn out to be a much less valuable animal. Of course, if the buyer
did open the poke in front of the seller, the cat would soon be out of the
bag.
Prai Jei
news:bc4bhvkfe0mqtdo43...@4ax.com...
> >poke (as in pig in a poke)
>
> Don't poke around in that drawer!
>
> Carry this food home in your poke.
POKE 16405, 0
Anybody remember that?! Anybody remember what that one did on the old TRS-80
computer?
Evan Kirshenbaum
> howard richler wrote:
> > "Poke" is an archaic word for "small sack."
>
> _Laughter in a Damp Climate_ probably from 1940, a collection of
> Punch stuff I think, two pigs inspecting a held sack
>
> Maurice: Alphonse! Don't go in there! It's a poke!
>
> Alphonse: But Maurice, there's garbage in there!
If there really *is* a pig in the poke, there's nothing wrong with
buying it. What you have to worry about is when you take it home,
open it up, and let the cat out of the bag.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Usenet is like Tetris for people
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |who still remember how to read.
Palo Alto, CA 94304
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Prai Jei
news:3f165790$0$28909$1b62...@news.euronet.nl...
> Oldenglish -> Handsum
> Hand is obvious and -some or -sum is a just a suffix".
> The old meaning of handsome is "usefull".
> Other Oldenglish words with -sum are "Hiersum", meaning obedient
(Hearsome)
> or "Wynnsum", meaning delightfull or pleasant. (winsome)
> Other related languages uses the same suffix are German; -zahm, Dutch;
> -zaam, Frisian; -sum
> In modern English the suffix -some isn't as productive as in like Dutch or
> Frisian.
Scandinavian has the separate word "som" as an all-purpose relative. One of
its meanings (surely cognate to English -some) is "like".
Tony Cooper
A poke was also a goldminer's grubstake. It was the money (or gold
dust or nuggets) he carried in a small leather pouch.
--
Tony Cooper aka: tony_co...@yahoo.com
Provider of Jots, Tittles, and Oy!s
Brian M. Scott
richler) wrote:
>I'm trying to make a list of words that I've designated as "viral"
>because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
>expression. The only ones that come to mind are...
>kith (as in kith and kin)
Exists independently, though very rarely used.
>scot (as in scot-free)
Also exists independently and is occasionally used in other
contexts, e.t., 'to pay the/one's scot'.
>poke (as in pig in a poke)
I shouldn't be surprised if this survives in more general use in
some dialects.
>cranny (as in nook and cranny)
Occasionally used independently.
[...]
Brian
Evan Kirshenbaum
> POKE 16405, 0
>
> Anybody remember that?! Anybody remember what that one did on the
> old TRS-80 computer?
I used to, but I had to look it up. It locks the keyboard.
Incidentally "poke 16405" is a Googlewhack, returning only
http://www.trs-80.com/trs80-p.htm
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Your claim might have more
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |credibility if you hadn't mispelled
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |"inteligent"
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
R F
> "Sack" is used in some states, where I would say "bag" but I can't
> remember which. Anybody?
West and Midwest or parts thereof. (Is it basically Midland and West?
I haven't noticed it in Chicago or Michigan.) It's "bag" in the
Coastal Northeast.
Santiago Zawojski
@enews.newsguy.com:
>>cranny (as in nook and cranny)
>
> Occasionally used independently.
Often used at work as a fake swear word.
Torsten Poulin
> Scandinavian has the separate word "som" as an all-purpose
> relative. One of its meanings (surely cognate to English -some)
> is "like".
The conjunction/relative pronoun <som> (Old Danish <sæm>, ON
<sem>) is akin to English <same> and Danish <samme>. The Danish
suffix <-som> (Swedish <-sam>, ON <-samr>) is a cognate of
English <-some>. And yes, they are related.
Some (sorry!) of the meanings of Danish <som>:
Who, which, that, as, by way of, like, such as.
--
Torsten
Se...@juno.com
wrote:
Bingo! I noticed it few years ago in the Heartland states, during a
Lewis & Clark trip from St. Louis to the W. Coast.
--
Selma
Tom Breton
> I'm trying to make a list of words that I've designated as "viral"
> because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
> expression.
I don't think "viral" is a very good name for this. "Leftover" words?
"Remnant"? "Vestigial", I like best.
There are a lot of words that. You're not likely to finish cataloging
them unless you have years to spare.
However, you might add:
fro (to and fro) (Also a distinct sense of "to")
gruntled (disgruntled)
ingenuous (disingenuous)
--
Tom Breton at panix.com, username tehom. http://www.panix.com/~tehom
Brian M. Scott
<te...@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com> wrote:
>hric...@sympatico.ca (howard richler) writes:
>> I'm trying to make a list of words that I've designated as "viral"
>> because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
>> expression.
>I don't think "viral" is a very good name for this. "Leftover" words?
>"Remnant"? "Vestigial", I like best.
>There are a lot of words that. You're not likely to finish cataloging
>them unless you have years to spare.
>However, you might add:
> fro (to and fro) (Also a distinct sense of "to")
> gruntled (disgruntled)
> ingenuous (disingenuous)
'Ingenuous' is a perfectly good word in its own right, 'showing
innocent or childlike simplicity and candidness; lacking craft or
subtlety'; it's part of my active vocabulary.
Brian
Mike Bandy
wrote:
>On Thu, 17 Jul 2003 Se...@juno.com wrote:
In the Midwest we'd be far more likely to say "paper sack" than "paper
bag."
--
Mike Bandy
Mike Bandy
wrote:
<snip>
> Riddles
>1)What goes up but never comes down?
>2)What can you catch but can't throw"
>3)What can go around the world but stays in a corner"
>4)What gets wetter and wetter the more it dries?
>5)I'm light as a feather but nobody can hold me for more than a
>minute?
>6)Give me food and I'll live; give me water and I'll die. What am I?
>7)I'm where yesterday follows today and tomorrow is in the middle.
>What am I?
<snip>
I give up. What are the answers?
--
Mike Bandy
Peter Moylan
> Riddles
>1)What goes up but never comes down?
>2)What can you catch but can't throw"
>3)What can go around the world but stays in a corner"
>4)What gets wetter and wetter the more it dries?
>5)I'm light as a feather but nobody can hold me for more than a
>minute?
>6)Give me food and I'll live; give me water and I'll die. What am I?
>7)I'm where yesterday follows today and tomorrow is in the middle.
>What am I?
I can think of seven different answers, but I'm buggered if I can
think of a single answer that satisfies all seven conditions.
--
Peter Moylan Peter....@newcastle.edu.au
http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au (OS/2 and eCS information and software)
Mike Bandy
wrote:
>I'm trying to make a list of words that I've designated as "viral"
>because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
>expression.
<snip>
Jeff Sherman wrote a list of words hanging on by a single phrase which
can be viewed at http://bookshelf.info/wordlists/v/vev/www/. Comments
were made on AUE when I posted the URL to a thread called Semantic.
For the fun of it, I collated Sherman's list with that of AUE and SL.
Had I realized in advance the amount of time it'd take, I wouldn't
have begun. Once I began, I didn't want to leave it undone.
There have been some interesting suggestions made for what to call
these words hanging on by a thread. They include "viral words,"
"verbal vestigia," "fossil words," "left-over words" and "remnant
words."
ALECK: Smart aleck
ASPERSIONS: Cast aspersions
AVAIL: (Noun) To no avail
AWEIGH: Anchors aweigh
BATED: Bated breath
BECK: At one's beck and call
BETWIXT: Betwixt and between
BIDE: Bide one's time
Some felt this shouldn't be included as existing solely in the above
phrase.
BOON: (Adj.) Boon companion
CABOODLE: Kit and caboodle
CAHOOTS: In cahoots with
CONCERTED: Make a concerted effort (attack, etc.)
CRANNIES: Nooks and crannies
Some felt this shouldn't be included as existing solely in the above
phrase.
DESERTS: (Noun) One's just deserts
DINT: By dint of will
DRUTHERS: If he had his druthers
DUDGEON: In high dudgeon
Here's an exception:
QUOTE from
http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2000/08/30.html
What you see, they reckon, is all there is: a media star of fading
allure--and shortening temper, if his dudgeon over a television
soap-opera satire about him called "How was I, Doris?" (a reference to
his fourth wife) is anything to go by.
--"Gerhard Schröder, embattled chancellor," Economist, September 18,
1999
END QUOTE
DURESS: Under duress
Some felt this shouldn't be included as existing solely in the above
phrase.
FANGLED: New fangled (or old fangled)
FIGMENT: Figment of one's imagination
FLEDGED: Full fledged
Some felt this shouldn't be included as existing solely in the above
phrase.
FRAUGHT: Fraught with peril
Some felt this shouldn't be included as existing solely in the above
phrase.
FRO: (Adv.) To and fro
GETGO: From the getgo
GRAVEN: Graven image
HANDBASKET: Going to hell in a handbasket
HAW: Hem and haw
My grandfather (who's long gone) could remember when a donkey (or a
horse or an ox) would be commanded to gee (turn right) or haw (turn
left). Also, a hawthorn berry is called a "haw." However, these
meanings are distinct from that used in the above phrase.
HISSY: Hissy fit
HUE: Hue and cry
IDES: Ides of March
"Ides" is defined as "The 15th day of March, May, July, or October or
the 13th day of the other months in the ancient Roman calendar."
http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2000/03/15.html.
We all know that the Ides of March falls on March 15. I for one
wouldn't know what the Ides of any other month is.
INCLEMENT: Inclement weather
KIBOSH: Put the kibosh on
KILTER: Off kilter
KITH: Kith and kin
LAM: On the lam
LIEU: In lieu of
NEAP: Neap tide
OFFING: In the offing
PETARD: Hoisted by one's own petard
The best definition and commentary I found is here:
http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-pet1.htm.
A learned post (on AEU, AUE and sci.military.naval) is located here:
http://snurl.com/petardx.
A short definition is found here: http://snurl.com/petard.
PEEVE: (Noun) Pet peeve
Some felt this shouldn't be included as existing solely in the above
phrase.
POKE: Pig in a poke
Some felt this shouldn't be included as existing solely in the above
phrase. Also, "Don't poke around in that drawer" was demonstrated as
an alternative meaning.
QUOTE from Prai Jei:
"Poke" is just the basic word meaning "bag" or "sack", of which
"pocket" is a diminutive. The proverbial pig was bought "in the poke"
i.e. unseen, so if the buyer did not examine his new goods on the spot
the contents of the poke would turn out to be a much less valuable
animal. Of course, if the buyer did open the poke in front of the
seller, the cat would soon be out of the bag.
END QUOTE
RIDDANCE: Good riddance
SCOT: Scot free
"Great Scot" (or "Great Scott") and "to pay one's scot" were
discovered as exceptions. One's lot is that which happens without
design. We speak of "one's lot in life." The words "allot" and
"lottery" are related. "To pay one's scot and lot" means to pay taxes
according to one's ability.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=to%20pay%20scot%20and%20lot
SHRIFT: Short shrift
"Shrift" is the act of shriving, or confessing to a priest. It's also
the term for an absolution given by a priest
(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=shrift). Dictionary.com
also says that to get "short shrift" means to receive scant attention.
It uses the example, "These annoying memos will get short shrift from
the boss."
QUOTE from http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=short%20shrift
In early medieval times penances were long and arduous lengthy
pilgrimages and even lifelong exile were not uncommon and had to be
performed before absolution, not after as today. However, less
demanding penances could be given in extreme situations; short shrift
was a brief penance given to a person condemned to death so that
absolution could be granted before execution.
END QUOTE
SLEIGHT: Sleight of hand
TAT: Tit for tat
"Tat" has some unrelated meaning apart from this phrase.
TENTERHOOKS: On tenterhooks
THITHER: Hither and thither
Some felt this shouldn't be included as existing solely in the above
phrase.
TOTALLER: Tea totaller
Jeff Sherman apparently means "teetotaller." "Teetotaller" was coined
by R. Turner of Preston, England in an 1833 speech. It comes from the
word "total" with a T in front of it for emphasis. Today we'd
probably say, "Total abstinence - that's 'total' with a capital T."
Turner said something like "Total abstinence - that's T Total
abstinence."
Sources: WN20CD and *Reader's Digest Family Word Power*
TROTH: Plight ones troth
UNSUNG: Unsung hero or heroine
VIM: Vim and vigor
WEND: Wend one's way
WHET: (Verb) Whet one's appetite
Some felt this shouldn't be included as existing solely in the above
phrase.
I hope you enjoyed reading this as much as I enjoyed compiling it.
Thank you for your time.
--
Mike Bandy
David Thomas
<MikeB...@hotmail.com> writes:
>There have been some interesting suggestions made for what to call
>these words hanging on by a thread. They include "viral words,"
>"verbal vestigia," "fossil words," "left-over words" and "remnant
>words."
I like the term my friend coined when I first showed him this thread:
verbosaurs.
Sleep, Fate, Death, and I sat one sunday down at tea.
Fate offered up his Ziggy mug before I poured,
Sleep yawned in his PJs, seeming mildly bored,
And Death politely asked, "Another pirouline?"
- Vae
David Thomas
>ALECK: Smart aleck
>ASPERSIONS: Cast aspersions
>AVAIL: (Noun) To no avail
>AWEIGH: Anchors aweigh
>BATED: Bated breath
>BECK: At one's beck and call
>BETWIXT: Betwixt and between
>BIDE: Bide one's time
Now, wait just a moment... avail's just archaic, and it certainly doesn't only
exist as part of a larger phrase!
Same thing with aspersions and bated, and betwixt also!
I don't know if 'bide' should qualify, as though it's rarely heard outside that
phrase, it can still be independant...
>Some felt this shouldn't be included as existing solely in the above
>phrase.
>
>BOON: (Adj.) Boon companion
>CABOODLE: Kit and caboodle
>CAHOOTS: In cahoots with
>CONCERTED: Make a concerted effort (attack, etc.)
>CRANNIES: Nooks and crannies
Crannies (and its singular) has already been discussed...
Boon, however, occurs elsewhere--namely, as a noun!
>Some felt this shouldn't be included as existing solely in the above
>phrase.
>
>DESERTS: (Noun) One's just deserts
>DINT: By dint of will
>DRUTHERS: If he had his druthers
>DUDGEON: In high dudgeon
Deserts? Surely you mean desserts! And that hardly only occurs in one known
utterance!
Handbasket? We just don't use them much anymore, I suppose.
>My grandfather (who's long gone) could remember when a donkey (or a
>horse or an ox) would be commanded to gee (turn right) or haw (turn
>left). Also, a hawthorn berry is called a "haw." However, these
>meanings are distinct from that used in the above phrase.
>
>HISSY: Hissy fit
>HUE: Hue and cry
>IDES: Ides of March
I'm not sure about hue...
>"Ides" is defined as "The 15th day of March, May, July, or October or
>the 13th day of the other months in the ancient Roman calendar."
>http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2000/03/15.html.
>We all know that the Ides of March falls on March 15. I for one
>wouldn't know what the Ides of any other month is.
>
>INCLEMENT: Inclement weather
>KIBOSH: Put the kibosh on
>KILTER: Off kilter
>KITH: Kith and kin
>LAM: On the lam
>LIEU: In lieu of
>NEAP: Neap tide
>OFFING: In the offing
>PETARD: Hoisted by one's own petard
Inclement certainly occurs elsewhere. There's a difference between being a
lost word and simply being part of a cliché, and I'm afraid there are alot of
cliché words here!
>The best definition and commentary I found is here:
>http://www.worldwidewords.org/weirdwords/ww-pet1.htm.
>
>A learned post (on AEU, AUE and sci.military.naval) is located here:
>http://snurl.com/petardx.
>
>A short definition is found here: http://snurl.com/petard.
>
>PEEVE: (Noun) Pet peeve
>
>Some felt this shouldn't be included as existing solely in the above
>phrase.
>
>POKE: Pig in a poke
>
>Some felt this shouldn't be included as existing solely in the above
>phrase. Also, "Don't poke around in that drawer" was demonstrated as
>an alternative meaning.
>
>QUOTE from Prai Jei:
>
>"Poke" is just the basic word meaning "bag" or "sack", of which
>"pocket" is a diminutive. The proverbial pig was bought "in the poke"
>i.e. unseen, so if the buyer did not examine his new goods on the spot
>the contents of the poke would turn out to be a much less valuable
>animal. Of course, if the buyer did open the poke in front of the
>seller, the cat would soon be out of the bag.
>
>END QUOTE
>
>RIDDANCE: Good riddance
>SCOT: Scot free
Riddance is obviously a verbal noun from 'rid,' as 'to rid (of),' so...
Thither is used about as much in English as hither!
>Some felt this shouldn't be included as existing solely in the above
>phrase.
>
>TOTALLER: Tea totaller
Are you sure that's how that's spelled?
>Jeff Sherman apparently means "teetotaller." "Teetotaller" was coined
>by R. Turner of Preston, England in an 1833 speech. It comes from the
>word "total" with a T in front of it for emphasis. Today we'd
>probably say, "Total abstinence - that's 'total' with a capital T."
>Turner said something like "Total abstinence - that's T Total
>abstinence."
>
>Sources: WN20CD and *Reader's Digest Family Word Power*
>
>TROTH: Plight ones troth
>UNSUNG: Unsung hero or heroine
>VIM: Vim and vigor
>WEND: Wend one's way
>WHET: (Verb) Whet one's appetite
Maybe you've never used a whetting stone?
>Some felt this shouldn't be included as existing solely in the above
>phrase.
>
>I hope you enjoyed reading this as much as I enjoyed compiling it.
>Thank you for your time.
>
>--
>Mike Bandy
Hmm...
Charles A. Burge
To my ears, a sack is always made of cloth, while a bag is some less
permeable material, like plastic. For paper, I've head both, though bag
is preferable.
--
Regards,
Charles A. Burge
------------------------
Sooner or later, most people will probably die of
something. -- Former Surgeon General Jocelyn Elders
Charles A. Burge
Wow, *that* takes me back! I don't remember what that specific address
was for, but I remember using poke to turn the cursor into a smiley face
(or anything else in the character set). I friend liked to poke his
computer to death - that is, write a loop that poked random vaules into
random addresses, and then see how long it would take before the computer
became unusable.
Raymond S. Wise
news:Xns93BBC23725CC6si...@163.1.2.7...
> howard richler wibbled
>
> > I'm trying to make a list of words that I've designated as "viral"
> > because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
> > expression. The only ones that come to mind are...
> >
>
>
I was going to mention "poke bonnet/poke-bonnet" as an example of the type
of thing the original poster is looking for, but I suddenly realized *why*
it had that name--the reason had eluded me before. It's simply because a
woman wearing a poke bonnet looks as if she is staring out from the bottom
of a "poke" ( = "bag, sack" )!
--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Curt Fischer
> In the Midwest we'd be far more likely to say "paper sack" than "paper
> bag."
Who is "we" and where is this "Midwest"? I would think that my 22
years in Ohio (18 in Cincinnati, 4 in Cleveland, which together
consitute the first 22 years of my life) qualifies me as a speaker of
Midwestern English, if there is such a thing.
"Paper bag" was certainly more common in my speech and that of
everyone around me than "paper sack".
--
Curt Fischer
dcw
Christian Weisgerber <na...@mips.inka.de> wrote:
>were- as in werewolf
Possibly also in "wergeld".
David
Richard Herring
Ellwood <mi...@ellwoods.org.uk> writes
>
>BTW, looking at "shrift", is "shriven" ever used now?
>
We still observe Shrove Tuesday.
Unlike "Mardi Gras" (which seems to have been adopted as a movable
feast) it still precedes Ash Wednesday.
--
Richard Herring
Richard Herring
<vael...@aol.comUspamo> writes
>In article <dmpehvoe066p9h3p9...@4ax.com>, Mike Bandy
><MikeB...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>ALECK: Smart aleck
>>ASPERSIONS: Cast aspersions
>>AVAIL: (Noun) To no avail
>>AWEIGH: Anchors aweigh
>>BATED: Bated breath
>>BECK: At one's beck and call
>>BETWIXT: Betwixt and between
>>BIDE: Bide one's time
>
>Now, wait just a moment... avail's just archaic, and it certainly doesn't only
>exist as part of a larger phrase!
>
>Same thing with aspersions and bated, and betwixt also!
>
so in mine.
[...]
>>
>>DESERTS: (Noun) One's just deserts
>>DINT: By dint of will
>>DRUTHERS: If he had his druthers
>>DUDGEON: In high dudgeon
>
>Deserts? Surely you mean desserts! And that hardly only occurs in one known
>utterance!
No, deserts. Things which are deserved. Nothing to do with either sandy
wastes or pudding.
--
Richard Herring
Santiago Zawojski
news:m3znjcr...@panix.com:
> hric...@sympatico.ca (howard richler) writes:
>
>> I'm trying to make a list of words that I've designated as "viral"
>> because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
>> expression.
>
> I don't think "viral" is a very good name for this. "Leftover" words?
> "Remnant"? "Vestigial", I like best.
Viral made me think this was going to be amout words with meme-like
properties. Words that don't mean anything, but are in common use, or
phrases that are very similar.
I can't think of any good examples, apart from maybe
"complete sea change" and "complete step change".
Jacqui
> I was going to mention "poke bonnet/poke-bonnet" as an example of
> the type of thing the original poster is looking for, but I
> suddenly realized *why* it had that name--the reason had eluded me
> before. It's simply because a woman wearing a poke bonnet looks as
> if she is staring out from the bottom of a "poke" ( = "bag, sack"
> )!
Alas, no. The OED suggests that it is from 'poke' in the sense of
'poking, projecting'.
Jac
Frances Kemmish
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2003, howard richler wrote:
>
>
>>I'm trying to make a list of words that I've designated as "viral"
>>because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
>>
>>
>>scot (as in scot-free)
>>fangled (as in new-fangled)
>>shrift (as in short shrift)
>>
>
>
> grist? ("..it's all grist to the mill".)
>
I read a lot about grist mills, but that's because I wrote a master's
thesis about water power. I do, however, know "grist" as a measure of
yarn thickness - much used among my friends who do their own spinning of
wool etc.
Fran
AnandVishy
> On 16 Jul 2003 09:55:19 -0700, hric...@sympatico.ca (howard richler)
> wrote:
> DINT: By dint of will
I don't think dint is one of them. I've seen it used in many other
contexts. Examples:
dint of work
dint of pity
dint of passion
dint of war
Stewart Gordon
> I'm trying to make a list of words that I've designated as "viral"
> because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
> expression.
Actually, such things aren't words, as you'd know if you followed Countdown.
But by your definition, surely "ryi" would qualify, being part of "trying".
> The only ones that come to mind are...
>
>
> kith (as in kith and kin)
> scot (as in scot-free)
> poke (as in pig in a poke)
> cranny (as in nook and cranny)
> fangled (as in new-fangled)
> shrift (as in short shrift)
>
> Others?
pincer (movement)
trouser (leg, suit)
responde (book)
(vice) versa
I tend to call such things pseudo-words.
Stewart.
--
My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox. Please keep replies on
on the 'group where everyone may benefit.
Chris Malcolm
>howard richler wrote:
>> I'm trying to make a list of words that I've designated as "viral"
>> because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
>> expression.
>pincer (movement)
What does a crab pick things up with?
--
Chris Malcolm c...@inf.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 650 3085 DoD #205
School of Informatics, Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill,
Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK. [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/ ]
John Holmes
> A poke was also a goldminer's grubstake. It was the money (or gold
> dust or nuggets) he carried in a small leather pouch.
In what region was that term used?
--
Regards
John
howard richler
> howard richler <hric...@sympatico.ca> writes:
>
> >I'm trying to make a list of words that I've designated as "viral"
> >because they only exist as being part of a larger word or an
>
> >kith (as in kith and kin)
> >scot (as in scot-free)
> >poke (as in pig in a poke)
> >cranny (as in nook and cranny)
> >fangled (as in new-fangled)
> >shrift (as in short shrift)
>
> >Others?
>
>
> They're called "cranberry morphs" in the trade.
"Kempt" and "couth" are both archaisms.What other words aside from
"unkempt" and "uncouth" are now only used in the negative sense?
> A Google search on that can be rewarding.
>
> For instance, see
> http://pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/ling201/test1materials/Review_HANDOUT2TEST1.htm
>
> -John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler Michigan Linguistics
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> "The relation between logic and thought is similar to that between
> medicine and health. If you're healthy, medicine is useless, but
> if you're ill, medicine can sometimes help. However, you have
> to take just the right medicine in just the right dosage, there
> may be unpleasant side effects, and it can be habit-forming."
> -- James D. McCawley
Ray Heindl
In the Yukon, if Robert W. Service is to be believed.
From "The Shooting of Dan McGrew":
"He looked like a man with a foot in the grave,
and scarcely the strength of a louse,
Yet he tilted a poke of dust on the bar,
and he called for drinks for the house.
....
The woman that kissed him, and pinched his poke,
was the lady that's known as Lou."
--
Ray Heindl
(remove the X to reply)
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Wow, *that* takes me back! I don't remember what that specific address
> was for, but I remember using poke to turn the cursor into a smiley face
> (or anything else in the character set). I friend liked to poke his
> computer to death - that is, write a loop that poked random vaules into
> random addresses, and then see how long it would take before the computer
> became unusable.
"Became unusable" as in "need to power cycle" or "became unusable" as
in "need to buy a new machine"?
WHAT IS THE 'KILLER POKE' AND SHOULD I WORRY ABOUT IT?
This is THE POKE of computer lore, the command that WILL
physically break a computer! Of course other commands and
methods are known that can potentially cause damage (usually to
disks, hard drives or other mechanical units), but this is the
most notable mainly because it was a command somewhat commonly
used and it affects solid-state circuitry.
History of 'the killer poke' When the first PETs (small 9"
screen) models came out, the display wasnt all that fast.
The old PETs were slow because the print character ROM routine
waited for the interval between screen scans before updating the
screen memory. This reduced conflicts over the screen RAM which
would have resulted in random pixels (snow) being illuminated on
the screen. There was an input on one of the I/O chips which
was hooked up to the video circuitry and told the routine when
to access the video RAM.
It wasn't too long before someone learned they could impove the
character display speed via a poke to location 59458; which
would set the video controller to update more readily. It was a
noticible improvement of speed on programs using PRINT often, it
was kind of like a free upgrade. It was mentioned in a few
publications and used in many programs that relied on printing
to the screen. I had learned of the poke through Cursor
Magazine, a monthly tape-based publication. They printed the
command in one of the 'newsletter' flyers included with an issue
which you could insert into their game "joust" to make it play
faster.
Later on, when Commodore released the larger display (14") PETs,
they had improved the display controller which made that POKE
unnecessary. An unfortunate side effect was that the POKE to
59458 affected a different register which adjusts one of the
newer screen display capabilities, which could result in
damaging the PETs video curcuitry when left running. I
discovered it by accident after our school received some
large-screen 4016s. When active, the screen starts to warp
after about the third line and the display stops around the
fifth, the keyboard is also unresponsive. When a PET is in this
mode, the only solution is to turn it off, FAST! Fortunately
none of the school's PETs were damaged due to this POKE. Later
Cursor Magazine published a 'fix' that would allow older PETs to
use the poke and keep the large-screen units from frying.
Unfortunately there are still many programs that do not have
this fix.
Prevention Make sure to check BASIC programs (especially games)
when running them on a large-screen PET and be ready with the
power switch when you first run it. I have usually found the
'killer poke' statement looking like this:
POKE 59458,PEEK(59458)OR 32. It will always be a POKE to 59458,
the remainder of the POKE may vary.
http://tinyurl.com/hdym
<URL:http://www.iso.port.ac.uk/~mike/interests/chistory/
documents/PETFAQ/petfaq.html>
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Never ascribe to malice that which
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |can adequately be explained by
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |stupidity.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Tom Breton
[...]
>
> Jeff Sherman wrote a list of words hanging on by a single phrase which
> can be viewed at http://bookshelf.info/wordlists/v/vev/www/.
Nice list. Thanks for the URL.
> DESERTS: (Noun) One's just deserts
"Desert" in this sense or a similar sense is sometimes used by itself
in moral philosophy.
> FIGMENT: Figment of one's imagination
Somewhere I've heard that used alone, in essentially this sense.
> LIEU: In lieu of
Because it's raw borrowed French. }:) Should that count? If so, it
seems to let in every foreign ~bon mot~ that ever got trapped in an
English phrase.
> PEEVE: (Noun) Pet peeve
Do you think the related verb sense, "to be peeved at", counts as
another occurence?
> THITHER: Hither and thither
To this place, to that place. They're both archaic, but are they
preserved as such by "hither and thither"? ISTM it uses them both
compositionally, not idiomatically. There's also "hither and yon" and
"come-hither".
> UNSUNG: Unsung hero or heroine
Unsung labors, unsung deeds... I think "unsung" is still a word.
> WEND: Wend one's way
Be glad you've never programmed in BASIC. }:)
> WHET: (Verb) Whet one's appetite
IMO that's metaphorical, based on the literal sense "whet", which is
to sharpen, eg to sharpen an axe. Heard this when I was in the boy
scouts way back. Perhaps it works that way for people who are
unfamiliar with "whet".
Evan Kirshenbaum
> > FIGMENT: Figment of one's imagination
>
> Somewhere I've heard that used alone, in essentially this sense.
Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen wrote a book entitled _Figments of Reality_
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The Elizabethans had so many words
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |for the female genitals that it is
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |quite hard to speak a sentence of
|modern English without inadvertently
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |mentioning at least three of them.
(650)857-7572 | Terry Pratchett
Mike Ellwood
> To this place, to that place. They're both archaic, but are they
> preserved as such by "hither and thither"? ISTM it uses them both
> compositionally, not idiomatically. There's also "hither and yon" and
> "come-hither".
In turn though, is that only used with "come-hither eyes"?
(a lovely expression, IMO).
Brian M. Scott
<te...@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com> wrote:
>Mike Bandy <MikeB...@hotmail.com> writes:
>[...]
>> Jeff Sherman wrote a list of words hanging on by a single phrase which
>> can be viewed at http://bookshelf.info/wordlists/v/vev/www/.
[...]
>> FIGMENT: Figment of one's imagination
>Somewhere I've heard that used alone, in essentially this sense.
Of course; 'of one's imagination' is redundant. On the other
hand, the word does occasionally need qualification, e.g.,
'literary figment'.
>> PEEVE: (Noun) Pet peeve
>Do you think the related verb sense, "to be peeved at", counts as
>another occurence?
No need to go that far: the noun has a second sense, 'a resentful
or disgruntled mood', as in 'in a peeve about X'.
[...]
>> WEND: Wend one's way
Many readers, especially of historical fiction or some types of
fantasy, will be familiar with other uses.
[...]
Brian
Tony Cooper
California and Alaska.
The Shooting of Dan McGrew (Robert Service)
A bunch of the boys were whooping it up in the Malamute saloon;
The kid that handles the music-box was hitting a jag-time tune;
Back of the bar, in a solo game, sat Dangerous Dan McGrew,
And watching his luck was his light-o'-love, the lady that's known as
Lou.
When out of the night, which was fifty below, and into the din and
glare,
There stumbled a miner fresh from the creeks, dog-dirty, and loaded
for bear.
He looked like a man with a foot in the grave and scarcely the
strength of a louse,
Yet he tilted a poke of dust on the bar, and he called for drinks for
the house.
There was none could place the stranger's face, though we searched
ourselves for a clue;
But we drank his health, and the last to drink was Dangerous Dan
McGrew.
and....
Oh, she was fair as any flower, and huskily he spoke:
"I'm all the way from Klondike, with a mighty heavy poke.
I'm looking for a lassie, one whose Christian name is Peg,
Who sought a Klondike miner, and who wrote it on an egg."
The Ballad of Hard-Luck Henry - Robert Service
--
Tony Cooper aka: tony_co...@yahoo.com
Provider of Jots, Tittles, and Oy!s
Brian M. Scott
No: 'She gave him a come-hither look'. Same sense, different
phrase. There's also 'come-hither wave'.
Brian
David Thomas
hric...@sympatico.ca (howard richler) writes:
>"Kempt" and "couth" are both archaisms.What other words aside from
>"unkempt" and "uncouth" are now only used in the negative sense?
I've certainly also heard 'well-kempt' and 'quite couth,' so they're certainly
not 'cranberry morphs.'
David Thomas
chok...@hotmail.com (AnandVishy) writes:
Always a dint of something, though...
David Thomas
<smjg...@yahoo.com> writes:
>pincer (movement)
>trouser (leg, suit)
>responde (book)
>(vice) versa
>
>I tend to call such things pseudo-words.
>
>Stewart.
But what about certain insects and their pincers?
And we all wear trousers at one time or another, methinks!
And vice should be included with versa, though that's just a foreign
phrase--and archaic also! Whether one should count these is arguable, along
with, say, 'et cetera,' 'et alias,' and the like...
David Thomas
<junk@[127.0.0.1]> writes:
>In message <20030718005054...@mb-m14.aol.com>, David Thomas
><vael...@aol.comUspamo> writes
>>In article <dmpehvoe066p9h3p9...@4ax.com>, Mike Bandy
>><MikeB...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>
>>>ALECK: Smart aleck
>>>ASPERSIONS: Cast aspersions
>>>AVAIL: (Noun) To no avail
>>>AWEIGH: Anchors aweigh
>>>BATED: Bated breath
>>>BECK: At one's beck and call
>>>BETWIXT: Betwixt and between
>>>BIDE: Bide one's time
>>
>>Now, wait just a moment... avail's just archaic, and it certainly doesn't
>only
>>exist as part of a larger phrase!
>>
>>Same thing with aspersions and bated, and betwixt also!
>>
>Dangerous assertions - what's archaic in your idiolect isn't necessarily
>so in mine.
True, but I would hardly label what I've said (typed?) as a 'dangerous
assertion!' It's no more dangerous than asserting the words don't occur
outside of a particular phrase *in the entire language.* I see avail quite
often, archaic or not, so that it could not possibly fall into the category of
words here discussed. Unless, of course, you'd like to suggest that all the
authors I read come exclusively from my own 'idiolect,' which is itself a silly
idea...
>[...]
>
>>>
>>>DESERTS: (Noun) One's just deserts
>>>DINT: By dint of will
>>>DRUTHERS: If he had his druthers
>>>DUDGEON: In high dudgeon
>>
>>Deserts? Surely you mean desserts! And that hardly only occurs in one
>known
>>utterance!
>
>No, deserts. Things which are deserved. Nothing to do with either sandy
>wastes or pudding.
>
>--
>Richard Herring
Now, I'd never heard that interpretation before... which might be proof of the
idea that it belongs to these types of words, but my skepticism dissents!
Charles A. Burge
> "Charles A. Burge" <hawaii...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> Wow, *that* takes me back! I don't remember what that specific address
>> was for, but I remember using poke to turn the cursor into a smiley
>> face
>> (or anything else in the character set). I friend liked to poke his
>> computer to death - that is, write a loop that poked random vaules into
>> random addresses, and then see how long it would take before the
>> computer became unusable.
>
> "Became unusable" as in "need to power cycle" or "became unusable" as
> in "need to buy a new machine"?
The first, obviously. One of the more common results was that the cursor
would turn into a blinking "ü", and would leave a "trail" of blinking
"ü"s if moved using the arrow keys.
[...]
--
Regards,
Charles A. Burge
------------------------
Sooner or later, most people will probably die of
something. -- Former Surgeon General Jocelyn Elders
Mike Bandy
I've been in Michigan and Indiana, but never in Ohio. Never the less,
you could be correct even about the states with which I'm more
familiar - those states circumscribed by Minnesota, Montana and Texas.
I asked my wife of twenty-five years about it, and she said that
"paper bag" was far more common than "paper sack."
--
Mike Bandy
Charles A. Burge
> On 18 Jul 2003 19:50:46 -0400, Tom Breton
> <te...@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com> wrote:
>
>>Mike Bandy <MikeB...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>[...]
>
>>> Jeff Sherman wrote a list of words hanging on by a single phrase which
>>> can be viewed at http://bookshelf.info/wordlists/v/vev/www/.
>
> [...]
>
>>> FIGMENT: Figment of one's imagination
>
>>Somewhere I've heard that used alone, in essentially this sense.
>
> Of course; 'of one's imagination' is redundant. On the other
> hand, the word does occasionally need qualification, e.g.,
> 'literary figment'.
>
>>> PEEVE: (Noun) Pet peeve
>
>>Do you think the related verb sense, "to be peeved at", counts as
>>another occurence?
>
> No need to go that far: the noun has a second sense, 'a resentful
> or disgruntled mood', as in 'in a peeve about X'.
>
It's still a verb too. "That [ person | situation ] really peeves me."
Brian M. Scott
<hawaii...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Brian M. Scott wrote:
>> On 18 Jul 2003 19:50:46 -0400, Tom Breton
>> <te...@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com> wrote:
>>>Mike Bandy <MikeB...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>>> Jeff Sherman wrote a list of words hanging on by a single phrase which
>>>> can be viewed at http://bookshelf.info/wordlists/v/vev/www/.
>>>> FIGMENT: Figment of one's imagination
>>>Somewhere I've heard that used alone, in essentially this sense.
>> Of course; 'of one's imagination' is redundant. On the other
>> hand, the word does occasionally need qualification, e.g.,
>> 'literary figment'.
>>>> PEEVE: (Noun) Pet peeve
>>>Do you think the related verb sense, "to be peeved at", counts as
>>>another occurence?
>> No need to go that far: the noun has a second sense, 'a resentful
>> or disgruntled mood', as in 'in a peeve about X'.
>It's still a verb too. [...]
Of course. That's implicit in the way I worded my comment.
Brian
Mike Bandy
wrote:
>In article <dmpehvoe066p9h3p9...@4ax.com>, Mike Bandy
><MikeB...@hotmail.com> writes:
<snip>
>Deserts? Surely you mean desserts! And that hardly only occurs in one known
>utterance!
Here's some fascinating information about "deserts."
QUOTE from http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=deserts
Word History: When Shakespeare says in Sonnet 72, "Unless you would
devise some virtuous lie,/To do more for me than mine own desert," he
is using the word desert in the sense of "worthiness; deserving," a
word perhaps most familiar to us in the plural, meaning "something
that is deserved," as in the phrase just deserts. This word goes back
to the Latin word dservre, "to devote oneself to the service of,"
which in Vulgar Latin came to mean "to merit by service." Dservre is
made up of d-, meaning "thoroughly," and servre, "to serve." Knowing
this, we can distinguish this desert from desert, "a wasteland," and
desert, "to abandon," both of which go back to Latin dserere, "to
forsake, leave uninhabited," which is made up of d-, expressing the
notion of undoing, and the verb serere, "to link together." We can
also distinguish all three deserts from dessert, "a sweet course at
the end of a meal," which is from the French word desservir, "to clear
the table." Desservir is made up of des-, expressing the notion of
reversal, and servir (from Latin servre), "to serve," hence, "to
unserve" or "to clear the table."
END QUOTE
<snip>
>I'm not sure about hue...
Remember that he's not talking about "hue" as a property of colors.
Generally, "hue and cry" refers to a loud outcry from many people.
QUOTE from http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=hue%20and%20cry
(Law), a loud outcry with which felons were anciently pursued, and
which all who heard it were obliged to take up, joining in the pursuit
till the malefactor was taken; in later usage, a written proclamation
issued on the escape of a felon from prison, requiring all persons to
aid in retaking him. --Burrill.
END QUOTE
<snip>
>>TOTALLER: Tea totaller
>
>Are you sure that's how that's spelled?
>
>>Jeff Sherman apparently means "teetotaller." "Teetotaller" was coined
>>by R. Turner of Preston, England in an 1833 speech. It comes from the
>>word "total" with a T in front of it for emphasis. Today we'd
>>probably say, "Total abstinence - that's 'total' with a capital T."
>>Turner said something like "Total abstinence - that's T Total
>>abstinence."
>>
>>Sources: WN20CD and *Reader's Digest Family Word Power*
I know how "teetotaller" is spelled. I can only guess that's what
Jeff Sherman meant when he wrote "totaller" and "tea totaller." By
the way, I certainly appreciate the scholarly comments that you and
other posters have made. For my part, I've certainly enjoyed
participating in this thread.
<snip>
>>WHET: (Verb) Whet one's appetite
>
>Maybe you've never used a whetting stone?
My grandfather taught me how to use a whetting stone. :-) Sherman's
suggestion is that "whet" as a verb is used very little, except in the
phrase, "whet one's appetite." Several posters expressed a feeling
that it shouldn't be included in the list, however.
<snip>
--
Mike Bandy
David Thomas
<MikeB...@hotmail.com> writes:
I think we just need to tighten up the definition of just what we're looking
for!
Thanks for all the great information, BTW!
I had always thought, BTW, of 'just deserts' as implying what is earned--though
I had thought it actually had something to do with 'desserts!' Evidently this
is probably because I'm used to being expected to eat dinner before I get
any... and perhaps my love of irony liked the contrast of 'desserts' with what
the word *usually* meant.
John Holmes
> On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 20:11:10 +1000, "John Holmes"
> <hol...@smart.net.au> wrote:
>
>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>>
>>> A poke was also a goldminer's grubstake. It was the money (or gold
>>> dust or nuggets) he carried in a small leather pouch.
>>
>> In what region was that term used?
>
> California and Alaska.
>
> The Shooting of Dan McGrew (Robert Service)
> The Ballad of Hard-Luck Henry - Robert Service
Thanks Tony and Ray.
I haven't noticed it in any gold-rush literature this side of the
Pacific, but I'll watch out for it. There were a lot of miners who went
from one rush to the other and it would be surprising if the term didn't
travel with them.
--
Regards
John
John Holmes
>
> I was going to mention "poke bonnet/poke-bonnet" as an example of the
> type of thing the original poster is looking for, but I suddenly
> realized *why* it had that name--the reason had eluded me before.
> It's simply because a woman wearing a poke bonnet looks as if she is
> staring out from the bottom of a "poke" ( = "bag, sack" )!
Are you sure about that?
The AOD has two entries for 'poke', with two different etymologies.
The bag or sack meaning is the second of those, derived from Old French
'poche', like pouch.
The first entry is derived from Middle Dutch and Middle Low German
'poken' of unknown origin. Under that head they include all the other
verb and noun senses of 'poke', including :
n[...] 3. a device fastened on cattle to prevent them breaking
through fences.
4a. a projecting brim or front of a woman's bonnet or hat.
b. (in full *poke-bonnet*) a bonnet having this.
--
Regards
John
Mike Bandy
wrote:
<snip>
>"Kempt" and "couth" are both archaisms.What other words aside from
>"unkempt" and "uncouth" are now only used in the negative sense?
<snip>
In an AEU thread called "Scathed, gruntled and hevelled"
(http://snurl.com/scathed), MC quoted from Jack Winter's article in
*The New Yorker*, July 25, 1994.
QUOTE
It had been a rough day, so when I walked into the party I was very
chalant, despite my efforts to appear gruntled and consolate.
I was furling my wieldy umbrella for the coat check when I saw her
standing alone in a corner. She was a descript person, a woman in a
state of total array. Her hair was kempt, her clothing shevelled, and
she moved in a gainly way.
I wanted desperately to meet her, but I knew Iąd have to make bones
about it since I was travelling cognito. Beknownst to me, the hostess,
whom I could see both hide and hair of, was very proper, so it would
be skin off my nose if anything bad happened. And even though I had
only swerving loyalty to her, my manners couldnąt be peccable. Only
toward and heard-of behavior would do.
Fortunately, the embarrassment that my maculate appearance might cause
was evitable. There were two ways about it, but the chances that
someone as flappable as I would be ept enough to become persona grata
or a sung hero were slim. I was, after all, something to sneeze at,
someone you could easily hold a candle to, someone who usually aroused
bridled passion.
So I decided not to risk it. But then, all at once, for some apparent
reason, she looked in my direction and smiled in a way that I could
make heads and tails of.
I was plussed. It was concerting to see that she was communicado, and
it nerved me that she was interested in a pareil like me, sight seen.
Normally, I had a domitable spirit, but, being corrigible, I felt
capacitated as if this were something I was great shakes at and forgot
that I had succeeded in situations like this only a told number of
times. So, after a terminable delay, I acted with mitigated gall and
made my way through the ruly crowd with strong givings.
Nevertheless, since this was all new hat to me and I had no time to
prepare a promptu speech, I was petuous. Wanting to make only
called-for remarks, I started talking about the hors dąoeuvres, trying
to abuse her of the notion that I was sipid, and perhaps even bunk a
few myths about myself.
She responded well, and I was mayed that she considered me a savory
character who was up to some good. She told me who she was. łWhat a
perfect nomer,˛ I said, advertently. The conversation become more and
more choate, and we spoke at length to much avail. But I was
defatigable, so I had to leave at a godly hour. I asked if she wanted
to come with me. To my delight, she was committal. We left the party
together and have been together ever since. I have given her my love,
and she has requited it.
END QUOTE
--
Mike Bandy
Tony Cooper
Malcolm) wrote:
>Ray Heindl <rhe...@nccwx.net> writes:
>
>>"John Holmes" <hol...@smart.net.au> wrote:
>
>>> Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>>>> A poke was also a goldminer's grubstake. It was the money (or gold
>>>> dust or nuggets) he carried in a small leather pouch.
>
>>> In what region was that term used?
>
>>In the Yukon, if Robert W. Service is to be believed.
>
>>From "The Shooting of Dan McGrew":
>>"He looked like a man with a foot in the grave,
>> and scarcely the strength of a louse,
>>Yet he tilted a poke of dust on the bar,
>> and he called for drinks for the house.
>
>>The woman that kissed him, and pinched his poke,
>> was the lady that's known as Lou."
>
>Misinterpretation. The standard modern meaning for "poke", still in
>everyday use in Scotland, is "small bag", which fits the above
>perfectly. The dust is obviously gold dust.
I don't see a misinterpretation. The poke here is the gold that is in
the bag, but the bag is part of it. When Dan "tilted the poke", he
tilted the bag to allow the dust to run out. When Lou pinched his
poke, she took the bag which contained the gold.
It's similar to "wallet" or "billfold" or "purse". If Lou stole Dan's
wallet, she took the container but the meaning is that she took the
contents.
Tony Cooper
Malcolm) wrote:
>Tony Cooper <tony_co...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>>On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 20:11:10 +1000, "John Holmes"
>><hol...@smart.net.au> wrote:
>
>>>Tony Cooper wrote:
>
>>>> A poke was also a goldminer's grubstake. It was the money (or gold
>>>> dust or nuggets) he carried in a small leather pouch.
>
>>>In what region was that term used?
>
>>California and Alaska.
>
>>The Shooting of Dan McGrew (Robert Service)
>
>>Oh, she was fair as any flower, and huskily he spoke:
>>"I'm all the way from Klondike, with a mighty heavy poke.
>>I'm looking for a lassie, one whose Christian name is Peg,
>>Who sought a Klondike miner, and who wrote it on an egg."
>
>You should note that in both this quote, and the previous one about
>"pinching his poke", Service is punning between the poke of gold dust
>and the scrotal poke.
Maybe, but his usage of "poke" is standard for the non-punning concept
of Dan's poke. I don't think the pun was considered by Service. You
just have a dirty mind.
You have, by the way, misinterpreted the lines. The lines above are
not from "The Shooting of Dan McGrew". You've snipped out the part
where I wrote that these lines were from "The Ballad of Hard-Luck
Henry".
Wolf Kirchmeir
>You're confusing definitions of words with figures of speech.
>--
>Chris Malcolm c...@inf.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 650 3085 DoD #205
>School of Informatics, Edinburgh University, 5 Forrest Hill,
>Edinburgh, EH1 2QL, UK. [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/ ]
What's the "definition of a word"? I presume you mean "the real meaning of a
word"?
If so, how do4es one distinguish between a figure of speech and the "real
meaning"?
--
Best Wishes,
Wolf Kirchmeir, Blind River ON
"Not that brains are everything --
you'll also need a skull to put them in." (Nancy Franklin, 1997)
Tony Cooper
Malcolm) wrote:
>>>>The Shooting of Dan McGrew (Robert Service)
>
>>>>Oh, she was fair as any flower, and huskily he spoke:
>>>>"I'm all the way from Klondike, with a mighty heavy poke.
>>>>I'm looking for a lassie, one whose Christian name is Peg,
>>>>Who sought a Klondike miner, and who wrote it on an egg."
>
>>>You should note that in both this quote, and the previous one about
>>>"pinching his poke", Service is punning between the poke of gold dust
>>>and the scrotal poke.
>
>>Maybe, but his usage of "poke" is standard for the non-punning concept
>>of Dan's poke. I don't think the pun was considered by Service. You
>>just have a dirty mind.
>
>It seems rather odd to suggest that a poet should have been unaware of
>puns and ambiguities in his writings which are obvious to non-poets.
You should enter yourself in the Attheraces Gold Cup at Sandown if you
are as good at jumping fences are you are jumping to conclusions. I
said I don't think Service considered the pun here. That is not at
all to say that Service was unaware of puns and ambiguities in his
writing. Any writing is ground for a pun, but all writing does not
involve the employment of a pun.
>Of course it is possible, but to establish its likelihood requires
>rather more special pleading than your speculation that I have a dirty
>mind.
That was a mistake on my part. "Dirty mind" was a bit of a joke in my
reply to you, and I should have known the ground is barren in your
case.
>>You have, by the way, misinterpreted the lines. The lines above are
>>not from "The Shooting of Dan McGrew".
>
>That's not a misinterpretation, it's a misattribution, and it has no
>effect on the interpretation.
Again, a mistake on my part. The use of "misinterpreted" was a play
on your own statement. I shall be more careful in future with you and
use plain speech and avoid complex things like mild wit lest I confuse
you further.
AnandVishy
diametrically opposed
diametrically opposing
diametrically opposite
You can google "diametrically" and you'll see what I mean.
Evan Kirshenbaum
If you remove those words, you'll find several thousand hits with
things like
diametrically enlarged
diametrically disagree
diametrically divided
diametrically even
diametrically different
diametrically changed
diametrically symmetric
diametrically wrong
diametrically contradicts
diametrically contrary
diametrically arranged
diametrically fractured
etc. Now, I'm not sure I quite see what some of these are supposed to
mean, but it looks as though the word is still productive in its
original sense (relating to the diameter) as well as in the more
recent sense of "at opposite extremes".
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If a bus station is where a bus
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |stops, and a train station is where
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |a train stops, what does that say
|about a workstation?
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Stewart Gordon
> In article <bf902u$7s$1...@sun-cc204.lut.ac.uk>, Stewart Gordon
> <smjg...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
>
>>pincer (movement)
>>trouser (leg, suit)
>>responde (book)
>>(vice) versa
>>
>>I tend to call such things pseudo-words.
>>
>>Stewart.
>
>
> But what about certain insects and their pincers?
Not sure about that one....
> And we all wear trousers at one time or another, methinks!
<snip>
Exactly. Trouser*s*.
Stewart.
--
My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox. Please keep replies on
on the 'group where everyone may benefit.
John Lawler
>Mike Bandy <MikeB...@hotmail.com> writes:
>[...]
>> Jeff Sherman wrote a list of words hanging on by a single phrase which
>> can be viewed at http://bookshelf.info/wordlists/v/vev/www/.
>Nice list. Thanks for the URL.
>> DESERTS: (Noun) One's just deserts
>"Desert" in this sense or a similar sense is sometimes used by itself
>in moral philosophy.
Uh, no. It's "desserts", double S, pronounced /d@'z@rt/, just like the
sweet at the end of the meal. The word with a single S is pronounced
/'dEz@rt/ and has to do with lack of water or imagination. "Desserts" is
related to "deserve" -- your just desserts are what you justly deserve.
>> THITHER: Hither and thither
>To this place, to that place. They're both archaic, but are they
>preserved as such by "hither and thither"? ISTM it uses them both
>compositionally, not idiomatically. There's also "hither and yon" and
>"come-hither".
A dead paradigm:
Locative Adessive Abessive Temporal
Proximal here hither hence now
Distal there thither thence then
Interrogative where whither whence when
Most are now used only metaphorically or in fixed phrases now.
>> WHET: (Verb) Whet one's appetite
>IMO that's metaphorical, based on the literal sense "whet", which is
>to sharpen, eg to sharpen an axe. Heard this when I was in the boy
>scouts way back. Perhaps it works that way for people who are
>unfamiliar with "whet".
Most Americans encounter the phrase as "wet one's appetite", identical
with the verb of "wet one's whistle", since there's no phonemic difference
between [w] and [hw] in AmE. The phrase gets associated with rustic
images like pump-priming, as well as knife-sharpening.
In general, there is almost never any evidence for the origins of fixed
phrases, and only rarely do they admit of univocal sources. There are
usually several conflicting, inevitably apocryphal, and equally valid
origin myths.
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler U Michigan Linguistics Dept
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Think of words as instruments characterized by their use, and then
think of the use of a hammer, the use of a chisel, the use of a
square, of a glue pot, and of the glue." -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
Richard Herring
<jla...@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> writes
>Tom Breton <te...@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com> writes:
>>Mike Bandy <MikeB...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>>[...]
>
>
>>"Desert" in this sense or a similar sense is sometimes used by itself
>>in moral philosophy.
>
>Uh, no. It's "desserts", double S, pronounced /d@'z@rt/, just like the
>sweet at the end of the meal.
Uh, not according to _my_ dictionary. It gives three meanings for
<desert>, one for <dessert>.
>The word with a single S is pronounced
>/'dEz@rt/ and has to do with lack of water or imagination. "Desserts" is
>related to "deserve" -- your just desserts are what you justly deserve.
That would be what you justly *desserve.
--
Richard Herring
Harlan Messinger
"John Lawler" <jla...@rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> wrote in message
news:w6TSa.979$H91....@news.itd.umich.edu...
> Tom Breton <te...@REMOVEpanNOSPAMix.com> writes:
> >Mike Bandy <MikeB...@hotmail.com> writes:
>
> >[...]
>
> >> Jeff Sherman wrote a list of words hanging on by a single phrase which
> >> can be viewed at http://bookshelf.info/wordlists/v/vev/www/.
>
> >Nice list. Thanks for the URL.
>
> >> DESERTS: (Noun) One's just deserts
>
> >"Desert" in this sense or a similar sense is sometimes used by itself
> >in moral philosophy.
>
> Uh, no. It's "desserts", double S, pronounced /d@'z@rt/, just like the
> sweet at the end of the meal. The word with a single S is pronounced
> /'dEz@rt/ and has to do with lack of water or imagination. "Desserts" is
> related to "deserve" -- your just desserts are what you justly deserve.
It isn't. "Dessert" is from the French word with the same spelling, which
comes from the verb "desservir" meaning to clear the table. (A homonym, also
not related to the concept of deserving, has the meaning of performing a
disservice.) It is not the same as the French word "deservir", related to
English "deserve," from which "desert", as in "just deserts", comes.
Merriam-Webster, American Heritage, and OED all concur. None has a
definition of "dessert" that has to do with deserving, but all have a
definition of "desert" in this sense.
Peter T. Daniels
> Most Americans encounter the phrase as "wet one's appetite", identical
> with the verb of "wet one's whistle", since there's no phonemic difference
> between [w] and [hw] in AmE. The phrase gets associated with rustic
> images like pump-priming, as well as knife-sharpening.
Speak for yourself, John. The Cornell University choir director (a
native of upstate New York -- Schenectady, I think) in 1969 was shocked
to learn that some people do not distinguish [w] and [hw].
OTOH, choristers in Chicago need to be introduced to the distinction --
and some of them don't even use the prevocalic form of the definite
article /Diy/, saying /D@/ even before a vowel.
--
Peter T. Daniels gram...@att.net
R F
Realized as [d@], of course.
Peter T. Daniels
No, because /D/ and /d/ are kept distinct. /D/ is realized as a dental
stop, /d/ as an alveolar stop in the "Da Bearss" dialect.
(The administration of a certain university on the North Side sank into
despair when "Da Paul" shirts became popular -- their students were
fairly close to borderline literacy already ...)
Evan Kirshenbaum
> A dead paradigm:
>
> Locative Adessive Abessive Temporal
> Proximal here hither hence now
> Distal there thither thence then
> Interrogative where whither whence when
>
> Most are now used only metaphorically or in fixed phrases now.
For sufficiently small values of "most". Certainly half of them are
still in full productive use, and I think you could argue that
"hence", while not exactly common isn't exactly fossilized, either.
(Although I guess the more common "therefore" sense *is*
metaphorical.)
I think I asked this before, but I don't recall the answer. "Now" is
a glaring exception to the paradigm. Was there originally a "hen"?
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Its like grasping the difference
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |between what one usually considers
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |a 'difficult' problem, and what
|*is* a difficult problem. The day
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |one understands *why* counting all
(650)857-7572 |the molecules in the Universe isn't
|difficult...there's the leap.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Tina Marie Holmboe
Bob Cunningham
<gram...@worldnet.att.net> said:
[ . . . ]
> [...] choristers in Chicago need to be introduced to
> the distinction -- and some of them don't even use the
> prevocalic form of the definite article /Diy/, saying
> /D@/ even before a vowel.
It's rude of Peter T Daniels to crosspost to AUE using an
ASCII IPA that he knows very well is not the norm here. If
you ask him for a reference that explains the system he's
using, he'll probably tell you to go and read some obscure
paper that he should know won't be available to the general
public.
But maybe this time will be different: Where can we learn
to read your ASCII IPA, sir?
R F
Ah, so it hasn't been my imagination then. It almost makes you want to
live in Hyde Park sometimes.
Jonathan Jordan
news:pt8ohv4oiokaekhr8...@4ax.com...
notation, which has some non-IPA usages, such as /y/ instead of /j/. The
system also analyses long vowels and diphthongs as combinations of short
vowels with one of /w/, /h/ or /y/.
The symbol you're complaining about (/iy/) is that system's transcription of
the "long e" sound of words like "beat".
From what I've seen of PTD's posts, I think he uses:
/a/ for the vowels of "pot" and "father", which are presumably the same in
his idiolect, though not of course in mine.
/ay/ for the vowel of "bite"
/aw/ for the vowel of "bout"
/e/ for the vowel of "pet"
/ey/ for the vowel of "bait"
/eh/ for the vowel of "man", which in his accent as in Richard Fontana's is
distinct from the vowel of "pat"
/i/ for the vowel of "pit" (note the potential confusion with the vowel of
"beat", which is also often written /i/)
/iy/ for the vowel of "beat"
/Oy/ for the vowel of "boy"
/Oh/ for the vowel of "caught", distinct from "cot" in his accent.
/ow/ for the vowel of "boat"
/u/ for the vowel of "put"
/uw/ for the vowel of "boot"
/&/ for the vowel of "pat"
/@/ for the vowel of "putt" and also for schwa.
I think there's a /i"/ (barred i) in there as well, but I'm not sure of the
details, and I don't think it exists in my dialect. I think the system's
supposed to be different for different dialects, but following the same
principles.
The above largely comes from reading PTD's sci.lang postings - I haven't
read any academic papers on the subject, obscure or not.
Jonathan
Apokrif
> But maybe this time will be different: Where can we learn
> to read your ASCII IPA, sir?
Perhaps here:
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm
--
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Bob Cunningham
> > [ . . . ]
I didn't complain about any symbol.
[ . . . ]
I objected to his use of a transcription system in AUE that
is not the norm for this group without saying where a guide
to that system can be found.
If he were a courteous person, he wouldn't have to be told
things like that. But we've learned from past experience
that he's not a courteous person.
> From what I've seen of PTD's posts, I think he uses:
What someone *thinks* he's using is of no value to me. If
I'm to try to read his notation, I need an authoritative and
unequivocal guide to that notation.
Anyway, you say he's using a *phonemic* transcription. I
question the propriety of using phonemic transcription to
describe how words are pronounced. Phonetic transcription
should be used for that.
Bob Cunningham
said:
> Bob Cunningham :
> > But maybe this time will be different: Where can we learn
> > to read your ASCII IPA, sir?
> Perhaps here:
> http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/home.htm
No. I have some familiarity with Sampa. What Peter T
Daniels wrote was not Sampa.
Peter T. Daniels
A few U of C diehards still do (like, the ones who bought their houses
or condos back when people could afford such things), but there seem to
be a lot more commuters now than there were in Harper's or even
Hutchins's days.
Peter T. Daniels
What the hell?
I am not using any sort of IPA; if you would for once in your life
REMEMBER something you claim to have learned, you would note that I am
writing phonemes, not a phonetic transcription; and for a phonemic
transcription I, and most American linguists, use the Smith-Trager
phonemicization.
Furthermore, you appear to be using the initialism "IPA" to denote any
sort of transcription system, since "an IPA that ..." makes no sense
otherwise; however, there is only one IPA, and if I were using it, I
probably would be using the Kirschenbaum adaptation of it for ASCII,
because that's what I've usually seen. Some people use something called
SAMPA, but I don't know what that is.