FitzPiers
Seejay51
Here's what I have on my FitzPiers line:
Descendants of Geoffrey FitzPiers [Earl of Essex]
First Generation
1. Geoffrey FitzPiers [Earl of Essex] was born about 1162 in Walden, Essex,
England and was christened in Cherhill, Wiltshire, England. He died 14 Oct
1213.
Surname also as FitzPeter.
Geoffrey married (1) Aveline (Eveline) de Clare, daughter of Roger "the Good"
de Clare [Earl Hertford] and Maud (Matilda) de Saint Hilary in England ?.
Aveline was born about 1172 in Hereford, Herefordshire, England. She died
about 4 Jun 1225 in England.
They had the following children:
+ 2 M i. John FitzGeoffrey [Sir Knight] was born about 1215 and died 23 Nov
1238.
3 F ii. Cicely FitzGeoffrey was born about 1206 in Shere, Surrey, England.
She died 1253 in England. Cicely married (1) Savary Bohun.
4 F iii. Hawise FitzGeoffrey was born about 1210 in Shere, Surrey, England.
She died 8 Aug 1247 in England.
Geoffrey also married (2) Beatrice de Saye before 25 Jan 1184/1185 in of,
Essex, England.
Second Generation
2. John FitzGeoffrey [Sir Knight] was born about 1215 in Shere, Surrey,
England. He died 23 Nov 1238.
John married (1) Isabel Bigod, daughter of Hugh Le Bigod [Earl of Norfolk] and
Maud (Matilda) Marshall [Countess] about 1232. Isabel was born about 1210/1222
in Thetford, England. She died 1239.
They had the following children:
+ 5 F i. Isabel FitzJohn was born about 1233.
+ 6 F ii. Maud FitzJohn was born about 1237 and died 16 Apr 1301.
7 M iii. John FitzJohn was born about 1240 in of, Shere, Surrey, England. He
died 6 Nov 1275.
John married (1) Margery Basset on 18 Feb 1258/1259 in Buckinghamshire,
England.
8 M iv. Richard FitzJohn [Sir Knight] was born about 1244 in of, Shere,
Surrey, England. was buried 7 May 1301.
Richard married (1) Emma Mrs FitzJohn.
+ 9 F v. Aveline FitzJohn was born about 1248 and died 20 May 1274.
10 F vi. Joan FitzJohn was born about 1250 in of, Shere, Surrey, England.
She died 4 Apr 1303. Joan married (1) Theobald Le Botiller/Butler about 1266
in of, Shere, Surrey, England.
Third Generation
5. Isabel FitzJohn was born about 1233 in Shere, Surrey, England.
Isabel married (1) Robert Vipont [Lord of Westmore], son of John de Vipont and
Sibyl/Sybil de Ferrers about 1253 in of, Essex, England. Robert was born about
1222/1233 in Brougham Castle, Westmorland, England. He died 1264/1265.
Robert and Isabel had the following children:
+ 11 F i. Isabel de Vipont [Lady of Appleby was born 1254 and died 1291.
6. Maud FitzJohn was born about 1237 in Shere, Surrey, England. She died 16
Apr 1301 in Grey Friars, Worcestershire, England and was buried 7 May 1301 in
Grey Friars, Worcestershire, England.
Maud married (1) William de Beauchamp [Earl of Warwick, son of William de
Beauchamp [Earl of Warwick] and Isabel Mauduit about 1250 in England. William
was born about 1227 in Elmley Castle, Worcestershire, England. He died 9 Jun
1298 in Elmley, Worcestershire, England.
They had the following children:
+ 12 F i. Isabel de Beauchamp was born about 1252 and died about 30 May 1306.
13 F ii. Sarah de Beauchamp was born about 1255 in of, Elmley Castle,
Worcestershire, England. She died 1306.
Sarah married (1) Richard Talbot.
14 M iii. Robert de Beauchamp was born about 1271 in of, Warwick,
Warwickshire, England. He died in child.
+ 15 M iv. Guy de Beauchamp [Earl of Warwick was born 1272 and died 12 Aug
1315.
16 F v. Ann Beauchamp was born about 1274.
17 F vi. Amy de Beauchamp was born about 1276 in Warwick, Warwickshire,
England. She died after 1296.
18 F vii. Margaret de Beauchamp was born about 1278 in of, Warwick,
Warwickshire, England.
Margaret married (1) John Sudeley.
19 M viii. John de Beauchamp was born about 1273 in Warwick, Warwickshire,
England.
20 F ix. Maud de Beauchamp was born about 1282 in of, Warwick, Warwickshire,
England. She died 1360. Maud married (1) Mr. Rithco. Maud also married (2)
Gerard Furnival [Lord of Hallams.
9. Aveline FitzJohn was born about 1248 in of, Shere, Surrey, England. She
died 20 May 1274.
Aveline married (1) Walter de Burgh [Earl of Ulster], son of Richard de Burgh
and Egidia (Jill) de Lacy about 1257 in of, Surrey, England. Walter was born
about 1230 in Connaught, Ireland. He died 28 Jul 1271.
Walter and Aveline had the following children:
+ 21 M i. Richard "the Red Earl" de Burgh [Earl of Ulster] was born 1259 and
died 29 Jul 1326.
Fourth Generation
11. Isabel de Vipont [Lady of Appleby was born 1254 in Ricester, Oxfordshire,
England. She died 1291 and was buried in Shap Abbey, Westmoreland, England.
Isabel married (1) Roger de Clifford [Baron Clifford], son of Roger de
Clifford [Baron Clifford] and Hawise Botterell [CntessLorraine] on 1269 in
England. Roger was born 1243/1248 in Clifford Castle, Clifford, Herefordshire.
He died 6 Nov 1282 in Menai Strait, Anglesey, Wales.
Roger and Isabel had the following children:
22 M i. Robert de Clifford [Baron Clifford] was born 1 Apr 1274 in Clifford
Castle, Herefordshire, England. He died 24 Jun 1314 in Bannockburn, Stirling,
Central, Scotland and was buried in Shap Abbey, Shap, Westmorland, England.
1st Lord Clifford.
Robert married (1) Maud de Clare [BaronssClifford, daughter of Thomas de Clare
[Sir Knight] and Juliana FitzMaurice on 13 Nov 1295 in Castle, Clifford,
Herefordshire, England. Maud was born about 1276 in Gloucestershire, England.
She died 1 Feb 1324/1327.
On 11 Nov 1315, she was abducted and forcibly remarried without the King's
permission, by Robert de Welles. (AOL)
23 M ii. Simon (John) de Clifford was born about 1276 in Appleby Castle,
Appleby, Westmorland, England. He died 1297 in Caerlaverock, Dumfriesshire,
Scotland and was buried in The Cathedral, Worcester, Worcestershire, England.
24 M iii. Idonea de Clifford was born about 1278 in Appleby Castle, Appleby,
Westmorland, England.
25 M iv. Roger de Clifford was born about 1295 in Appleby, Westmorland,
England. He died after 1320.
12. Isabel de Beauchamp was born about 1252 in of, Warwick, Warwickshire,
England. She died about 30 May 1306 in Elmley Castle, Worcestershire, England.
Isabel married (1) Hugh Le Despencer [Earl Winchester], son of Hugh Le
Despencer [Sir Knight] and Aline (Aliva) (Alice) Bassett [CountessNorfolk
about 1260. Hugh was born 1 Mar 1260 in Winchester, or Louchborough, England.
He died 27 Oct 1326 in Bristol, Gloucestershire, England.
Hugh and Isabel had the following children:
26 M i. Hugh Le Despencer [Baron] was born 1 Mar 1260/1261 in Barton,
Gloucestershire, England. He died 24 Nov 1326 in Hereford, Herefordshire,
England and was buried after 15 Dec 1330 in Tewkesbury Abbey, Tewkesbury,
Gloucestershire, England. Baron Le Despencer.
Hugh married (1) Alianore (Eleanor) de Clare, daughter of Gilbert "the Red" de
Clare [Earl of Gloucester] and Joan "of Acre" , Princess of England [Countess]
after 14 Jun 1306 in Westminster, England. Alianore was born Oct 1292 in
CaerphillyCastle, Caerphilly, Glamorganshire, Wales. She died 30 Jun 1337 in
Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, England.
27 F ii. Ada (Elizabeth) Despencer was born about 1262 in Winchester,
Hampshire, England. Ada married (1) Ralph Camoys before 1321.
28 F iii. Joan Despencer was born about 1264 in Southampton, Lincolnshire,
England. She died before 15 Feb 1351. Joan married (1) John de Saint Amand.
29 F iv. Aveline (Oliva) Le Despencer was born about 1266 in Southampton,
Lincolnshire, England. She died May 1363. Aveline married (1) Edward Burnel
[Sir], son of Philip Burnel [Sir] and Maud FitzAlan before 1329. Edward died
1315.
30 F v. Eleanor Despencer [Nun] was born about 1268 in Winchester,
Hampshire, England. She died after 1351.
31 F vi. Isabel Le Despencer was born about 1270 in Winchester, Hampshire,
England. She died 4 Dec 1334. Isabel married (1) Richard Meunthermer. Isabel
also married (2) John de Hastings [Baron Hastings], son of Henry de Hastings
[Sir Knight] and Joane de Cantilou after 3 Oct 1305. John was born 6 May 1262
in Abergavenny, England. He died 1322/1323. He was a competitor for the crown
of Scotland in 1292. (AOL)
Isabel also married (2) William Blount [Sir Knight], son of Robert Blount
[Baron of Saxlin] and Isabel Odingsells about 1261 in of, Belton, Rutland,
England. William was born about 1233 in of, Belton, Rutland, England. He died
1316 in of, Timberlake, Worcestershire, England.
William and Isabel had the following children:
32 M vii. Mr. Blount was born about 1262 in of, Belton, Rutland, England.
33 M viii. Peter Blount was born about 1266 in of, Hanslope,
Buckinghamshire, England. He died about 1294 in (sp).
34 M ix. Walter Blount [Sir Knight] was born about 1270 in of, Rock,
Worcestershire, England. He died 1315/1316. Walter married (1) Eleanor
Beauchamp. Walter also married (2) Johanna de Sodington, daughter of William
Soddington before 1294 in of, Sodington, Worcestershire, England. Johanna was
born about 1274 in of, Sodington, Worcestershire, England. She died about
1331.
Isabel also married (3) Patrick de Chaworth [Sir Knight], son of Patrick de
Chaworth and Hawise de Londres about 1281. Patrick was born about 1250 in
Kempsford, Gloucestershire, England. He died before 7 Jul 1283.
They had the following children:
35 F x. Maud de Chaworth was born about 1282 in Kidwelly, Carmarthenshire,
Wales. She died after 19 Feb 1317 and was buried before 3 Dec 1322 in Priory,
Mottisfont, Hampshire, England.
Maud married (1) Henry (of Lancaster) Plantagenet [Earl Lancaster], son of
Edmund "Crouchback" (of Lancaster) Plantagenet [Prince of England] and Blanche
d' Artois [Queen Navarre] before 2 Mar 1296/1297 in of, Kidwelly,
Carmarthenshire, Wales. Henry was born 1281 in Grismond Castle, Monmouthshire,
England. He died 22 Sep 1345/1348 in Leicester, England.
Created 3rd Earl of Lancaster, May 10, 1324; Earl of Leicester 1324; M.P.
1298/1299; Lord of Beaumont & Nogent 1336; AKA "Tortcol". He was one of the
leaders of the great confederacy which overturned the power of the Spencers
and deposed King Edward II. He was appointed guardian of the new King Edward
III. He was appointed captain-general of all the King's forces in the Marches
of Scotland. He took part in the siege of Carlaverock in July 1300. (AOL)
On the Queen's return to England with Roger de Mortimer in September 1326, he
joined her party against King Edward II, which led to a general desertion of
the King's cause. He was sent in pursuit and captured the King at Neath; he
was appointed to take charge of the King, and was responsible for his custody
at Kenilworth. (AOL) About 1330 he became blind. Upon the fall of Mortimer,
his close personal relations with the young King were renewed. (AOL)
Isabel also married (4) Henry Lovet.
15. Guy de Beauchamp [Earl of Warwick] was born 1272 in Elmley Castle, Elmley,
Worcestershire, England. He died 12 Aug 1315 in Warwick, Warwickshire, England
and was buried in Bordesley Abbey, Worcestershire, England. 10th Earl of
Warwick. Guy married (1) Isabella de Clare, daughter of Gilbert "the Red" de
Clare [Earl Gloucester] and Alice le Brun de Lusignan [Countess] before 11 May
1297. The marriage ended in divorce. Isabella was born 10 Mar 1263. She died
1338.
Guy also married (2) Alice de Toeni [Countess Warwick], daughter of Ralph de
Toeni and Mary (Clarissa) on 12 Feb 1309 in England. Alice was born 1284 in
Flamsted, Hertfordshire, England. She died 1 Jan 1324.
They had the following children:
36 F i. Isabel de Beauchamp was born about 1303 in Of Warwick Castl,
Warwickshire, England. Isabel married (1) John Clinton.
37 F ii. Elizabeth de Beauchamp was born about 1305 in Of Warwick Castl,
Warwickshire, England. She died 1359. Elizabeth married (1) Thomas Astley
[Baron Astley] before 1336/1337 in of, Astley, Warwickshire, England.
38 M iii. John de Beauchamp was born about 1307 in of, Warwick Castle,
Warwickshire, England. He died 2 Dec 1360. John married (1) Margaret Basset
[Countess], daughter of Ralph Basset [Lord Basset] and Joan de Grey. Margaret
died after 1347. Countess of Hereford & Essex. The writ for the marriage was
issued, but it appears not to have taken place (to John de Beauchamp).
39 F iv. Maud de Beauchamp was born 1311 in of, Warwick Castle,
Warwickshire, England. She died 1368. Maud married (1) Geoffrey de Saye [Lord
Saye], son of Geoffrey de Saye [Baron Saye] and Idonia de Leyburn [Baroness
Saye]. Geoffrey was born 6 Jun 1305 in Sawbridge, Hertfordshire, England. He
died 28 Jun 1359.
40 F v. Emma de Beauchamp was born about 1311 in Warwick Castle,
Warwickshire, England. Emma married (1) Rowland Odingsells.
41 M vi. Thomas de Beauchamp [Earl of Warwick was born 14 Feb 1313/1314 in
Warwick Castle, Warwickshire, England. He died 13 Nov 1369 in Calais, Pas-De-
Calais, France and was buried in Saint Mary's, Warwick, Warwickshire, England.
11th Earl of Warwick.
Thomas married (1) Catherine (Katherine) de Mortimer [CountssWarwick],
daughter of Roger de Mortimer [Earl of March] and Joan de Geneville [Countess
March] about 1334 in Warwickshire, England. Catherine was born 1309/1310 in
Wigmore, Herefordshire, England. She died Aug 1369.
42 F vii. Lucia (Jane) de Beauchamp was born about 1315 in Of Warwick Castl,
Warwickshire, England. Lucia married (1) Roger Napon.
21. Richard "the Red Earl" de Burgh [Earl of Ulster] was born 1259 in Ulster
Planatati, Ulster, Ireland. He died 29 Jul 1326 in AthasselMonastry,
Tipperary, Ireland and was buried 29 Aug 1326 in AthasselMonastry, Tipperary,
Ireland. 3rd Earl of Ulster.
Richard married (1) Margaret de Burgh, daughter of John de Burgh and Cecilia
de Baliol before 27 Feb 1280 in Lanvalay, Connaught, Ireland. Margaret was
born about 1264 in Portslade, Sussex, England. She died 1303/1304.
Richard and Margaret had the following children:
43 F i. Aveline de Burgh was born about 1280 in ConnaughtProvinc, Ireland.
Aveline married (1) John de Birmingham, son of Piers de Birmingham.
John was contracted to marry Maud, but Gilbert, Earl of Gloucester, picked her
instead; so John married her sister Aveline. (AOL)
44 F ii. Alianore (Eleanor) Burgh was born 1282 in Belfast, Antrim, Ireland.
She died after Aug 1324.
Alianore married (1) Thomas de Multon [Lord Multon] on 3 Jan 1296/1297 in St
Peter's Prior, Ipswich, England.
45 F iii. Elizabeth de Burgh was born about 1284 in Dunfermline, Fifeshire,
Scotland. She died 26 Oct 1327 in Cullen Castle, Banffshire, Scotland and was
buried in DunfermlineAbbey, Fifeshire, Scotland.
Elizabeth married (1) Robert I "de Brus" (the Bruce), King of Scotland, son
of Robert de Brus [Earl of Carrick] and Margaret (Marjorie) , Countess of
Carrick on 1302 in Writtle, Near Chelsford, Essex, England. Robert I was born
11 Jul 1274 in Writtle, Near Chelmsford, Essex, England. He died 7 Jun 1329 in
Cardross, Dunbartonshire, Scotland. King: Mar. 25, 1306 - June 7, 1329. Earl
of Carrick, 1292, by right of his mother. Great-great-grandson of David I.
He was a man a courage, energy, ambition, and powers of leadership. At first
(1296), Robert sided with Edward I when John Balliol revolted. But during the
patriotic resistance movement under William Wallace ("Braveheart"), he changed
sides and became a Guardian of the Realm (1298-1300). In 1307-1309 he fought
in all parts of Scotland, defeating English sympathizers and establishing
control north of the Forth. He aimed to eject the English, re-establish
peace, and gain recognition as the true king. He concluded a truce with
France in 1326, and a treaty with England in 1328 which gave him all he had
fought for. Though crippled, even in his last years (1327-1328) he twice
visited Ireland to maintain the links with Scotland. (Cannon; pg. 220) Robert
is described as "Deo Rectore Rex Scottorum" ("Under God's Governance King of
Scots") on his coins. (Cannon; pg. 220)
46 M iv. Walter de Burgh was born about 1285 in Ulster Province, Ireland. He
died 1304.
47 M v. John de Burgh [Earl of Ulster] was born 1286 in England. He died 18
Jun 1313 in Le Ford, Belfast, Ireland.
John married (1) Elizabeth de Clare [BaronessD'Amory, daughter of Gilbert "the
Red" de Clare [Earl of Gloucester] and Joan "of Acre" , Princess of England
[Countess] on 30 Sep 1308 in Waltham Abbey, Essex, England. Elizabeth was born
16 Sep 1295 in Tewkesbury, Gloucester, England. She died 4 Nov 1360.
48 M vi. Thomas de Burgh was born about 1288 in Ulster Province, Ireland. He
died 1316.
49 F vii. Katherine de Burgh was born about 1296 in of, Ireland. She died 1
Nov 1331 in Dublin, Ireland.
Katherine married (1) Maurice FitzThomas on 5 Aug 1312 in Greencastle,
Ireland.
50 M viii. Edmund de Burgh [Sir] was born about 1298 in Ireland.
51 F ix. Joan de Burgh [Lady] was born about 1300 in Ulster, Ireland. She
died 23 Apr 1359 in Friars Church, Minors, Kildare, Ireland and was buried in
Kildare, Ireland. Joan married (1) Thomas FitzJohn [Earl of Kildare on 16 Aug
1312 in Greencastle, Ireland. Joan also married (2) John "Le Neveu" Darcy
[Baron Darcy] on 3 Jul 1329 in Maynooth, Kildare, Ireland.
52 F x. Maud (Matilda) de Burgh was born about 1288 in Gloucestershire,
England. She died 1320 and was buried in Tewkesbury Abbey, Gloucester,
England.
Maud married (1) Gilbert de Clare [EarlGloucester], son of Gilbert "the Red"
de Clare [Earl of Gloucester] and Joan "of Acre" , Princess of England
[Countess] on 29 Sep 1308 in Waltham Abbey, Essex or, Gloucestershire,
England. Gilbert was born about 10 May 1291 in Winchcombe Near, Tewkesbury,
Gloucester, England. He died 24 Jun 1314 in Battle of, Bannockburn,
Stirlingshire, Scotland. Earl of Gloucester & Hertford.
Maud was not married to (2) John de Birmingham, son of Piers de Birmingham.
John was contracted to marry Maud, but Gilbert, Earl of Gloucester, picked her
instead; so John married her sister Aveline. (AOL)
Richard also married (2) Margaret (Maud) de Lacie.
Hope this helps! Carol
Doug Holmes
At 15:11 17.4.1998 -0700, Seejay51 wrote:
>Here's what I have on my FitzPiers line:
>
>Descendants of Geoffrey FitzPiers [Earl of Essex]
>
>First Generation
>
>1. Geoffrey FitzPiers [Earl of Essex] was born about 1162 in Walden, Essex,
>England and was christened in Cherhill, Wiltshire, England. He died 14 Oct
>1213.
>Surname also as FitzPeter.
>
>
> 18 F vii. Margaret de Beauchamp was born about 1278 in of, Warwick,
>Warwickshire, England.
>Margaret married (1) John Sudeley.
>
Hi Carol,
Wow, what a lot of data. I really appreciate your great posts.
As you can see, I have edited out most and am asking about the John de
Sudeley connection above.
The stuff I sent you last week or so ago was based on the LDS Ancestral
File and I haven't found much else on the generation you have above. But
the one reference I did find has info which says John de Sudeley (Ancestral
File# TL33-N8):
"John de Sudeley, Chamberlain to Edward I., was summoned to Parliament
1299; his grandson John De Sudeley, d. 1339, leaving an only surviving dau.
Joane Sudeley m. William Boteler, of Wemme; her grandson, Sir Ralph
Boteler, K.G., of Sudeley, was created Baron Sudeley, by patent, 1441,
d.s.p." as quoted from the book "The General Armory" under the surname
Sudeley. (my note: King Edward I ruled from 1272-1307.) (I already sent a
portion of that quote earlier which you'll recognize.)
Now, the LDS AF says he died by 18 April 1336. The LDS IGI estimates his
birth as in 1257.
As you know, my contention is that there was a brother of the above Joane
Sudeley, the one to accompany Queen Philippa of Lancaster, of Portugal in
1386, and Joane wasn't an only surviving daughter, but had this brother in
Portugal.
So now I come to the above quote from your message. The Baron Sudeley, John
de Sudeley who died by 18 April 1336, is listed with no wife (unknown,
though the AF identifies her as Mrs. John de Sudeley - they're right, of
course...<g>). This John de Sudeley was the son of Bartholomeu de Sudeley,
knight, who died 29 June 1280 (again, according to AF) and he married Joan
de Beauchamp. Now I wonder about this Beauchamp lady.
The IGI has two entries for this couple (obviously two people sent it in to
them). One estimates their marriage in 1256. The other in 1270 in Warwick,
England.
About this Joan de Beauchamp, I have a mysterious note to myself which I no
longer know what it means: Her husband "m. Joan liv. 1298. (CP XII (1) 415."
Maybe someone here will recognize this reference.
So I don't have any record of John de Sudeley marrying your above "Margaret
de Beauchamp was born about 1278 in of, Warwick"
Does your reference state the parents of this John de Sudeley? I had no
names for the parents of the one the IGI and AF call Joan de Beauchamp.
Thanks,
Doug Holmes
brotherly...@gmail.com
Please note the birth dates of Alice (b. 1222) and her mother (b. 1210). The latter would have been 12 years old at the time of her daughter's birth. Perhaps a couple of years older to credit the "circa."
This line seems to be widely credited. But I wonder if this is a weak link? Opinions?
I appreciate your help.
Mark
On Friday, April 17, 1998 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, Seejay51 wrote:
> Here's what I have on my FitzPiers line:
>
> Descendants of Geoffrey FitzPiers [Earl of Essex]
>
Wjhonson
we don't know the year she was born
She was born *between* 1220 and 1232
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of
the message
Matt A
"As far back as the year 1350, John Osberne, the untrustworthy chronicler of the Mohun family, described her as a sister of William Mandeville, Earl of Essex. Dugdale, perceiving perhaps that this nobleman was contemporary with Sir Reynold's father, makes her a sister of Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Essex, although he professes to get his information from the very book which calls Humphrey her cousin. Others have chosen to describe her a daughter of John Fitz Geoffrey. On the other hand, two quarterly shields of the later Mohuns give the arms of Fleming immediately after those of Briwere, thus suggesting that a Mohun married a Fleming heiress in the thirteenth century. Such evidence is not of much intrinsic value, but it acquires force when found to be consistent with definite facts. Sir William Pole has preserved copies of two deeds by which William son of William Fleming conveyed to Reynold de Mohun the manors of Ottery and Stoke, and a third deed by which Geoffrey de Mandeville, the overlord, approved William Fleming's grants to Reynold de Mohun of the manors of Stoke, Ottery, Olditch and Pinford. Although the original conveyances are not extant, it further appears that the manors of Luppit and Farway, also in Devonshire, passed from the Flemings to the Mohuns. In support of his own
story, John Osberne states that William de Mandeville. Earl of Essex, granted the manors of Streatley, in Berkshire, to Reynold de Mohun, to be held by him by service of a quarter of a fee. If Reynold married before the Earl's death in 1227, this is likely enough. He certainly had a house at Streatley in 1233, and there is no reason to suppose that he bought this property in a distant county. The nature of the transaction becomes clearer when we find that the Earls of Essex were merely the overlords of Streatley, and that William Fleming held three quarters of a fee there in the middle of the thirteenth century. Lastly, attention may be drawn to the fact that, in 1283, one of the buildings at Dunster Castle was known as the 'Fleming Tower,' doubtless that which was afterwards called 'Dame Hawis's Tower.' In defiance therefore of the older genealogists, we may fairly hold that Sir Reynold de Mohun married firstly Hawis daughter and heiress of William Fleming."
So the FitzPiers link is very doubtful at best. It should be noted that Complete Peerage XIV: 478 reject's Lyte's arguments, but cites as his authority the same documents whose misinterpretation Lyte cleared up! (thanks to Terry Booth for that reference). But Weis' Ancestral Roots gives the following: the Reynold's great-grandfather William married Godeheut, daughter of Roger III de Toeni and Ida, daughter of Baudouin III, Count of Hainault, great-great-grandson of Robert II of France. This second marriage is documented by Giselbertus of Mons (see http://tinyurl.com/8gb7lxm). A primary source for the first marriage is probably covered in an excellent outline of the Toeny/Tosny family by Nat Taylor, but I cannot recall its title or where to find it online.
Hope this helps,
-Matt Ahlgren
brotherly...@gmail.com
Mark
Matt A
1. There is allegedly a line to Henry I, thus (presented by James Dow Allen):
1. Agnes Harris (1604-)
2. Bartholomew Harris (-1615), Mayor of Barnstaple.
3. Elizabeth Collamore (1566-1647).
6. Henry Collamore (-1625).
12. John Collamore.
13. Margery Hext (-1551).
26. Thomas Hext (-1550).
27. Wilmot Poyntz (1487-1558)
54. William Poyntz.
108. Humphrey Poyntz (-1487), Lord of Elkstone.
216. Nicholas Poyntz
432. Robert Poyntz (1359-1439)
865. Elizabeth de Clanvowe
1731. Philippa Talbot
3463. Anne Boteler
6927. Angharad verch Griffith
13855. Emma d' Aldithley
27711. Bertrade Mainwaring
55423. Amicia de Meschines
110847. Hugh Kevelioc (1147-1181), 3rd Earl of Chester
221695. Maud de Caen (-1189)
443390. Robert de Caen (-1147)
886780. King Henry I of England (1068-1145)
However, as Douglas Richardson pointed out (his words, not mine): "The lineage depends on the interpreation of a document in the papal registers in which the
brother of Elizabeth de Clanvowe claimed to be the nephew ("nepos" in Latin) of a Talbot. The word "nepos" in that period usually meant nephew or grandson, but, I've found a few instances where it also referred to a close male kinsman"
2. The wife of Reynold de Mohun (aforementioned).
3. It is a chronological impossibility that Sibyl Oliver, wife of Sir Humphrey Beauchamp, was descended from the Champernouns and thus King John.
4. The Beauchamp family of Ryme (through whom Agnes Harris descends via Fortescue) are cadets, often confused (e.g. by Douglas Richardson's earlier works) with the main line Beauchamp of Hatch, due to the number of Johns. The real descent is thus:
Robert de Beauchamp = Alice de Mohun
Humphrey de Beauchamp (d. after 1317) = Sybil Oliver (The Henry I ancestry sometimes attributed to her through the Champernouns is chronologically impossible, but I forget the details of that)
John de Beauchamp (d. 1336) = Alice (NOT d. and heiress of Roger Nonant)
John de Beauchamp (d. 1349) = Joan (NOT Margaret Whalesborough, who descends from King John through the Champernouns; she is the wife of John's same-named 2nd cousin, the 2nd Lord Beauchamp*)
Elizabeth de Beauchamp = William de Fortescue
William de Fortescue = Mabilla Falwell
John Fortescue = Joan Prutteston** (I have heard it alleged that she was of the family of Preston, the Barons Slane, but seen only a non-contemporary source)
Joan Fortescue = Thomas Hext
Thomas Hext = Wilmot Poyntz
Margery Hext = John Collamore
Henry Collamore = Margaret Blight
Elizabeth Collamore = Bartholomew Harris
Agnes Harris
*As an interesting side-note, it is alleged that William Shakespeare has a Whalesborough/Henry I descent through the Ardern/Arden family, but this is speculative.
**Incidentally, these individuals are ancestral to a *good candidate* for Lt. Col. Thomas Drew, the early Jamestown resident, one of my likely ancestors, but as far as I know, there is no definite proof that the Devon man was the Virginia man.
In other words, the ancestry of Agnes (Harris) (Spencer) Edwards only breaks down, as far as I know, in the specific lines mentioned above. Thus her immediate ancestry is indeed proven (have you read the several TAG articles on her?), as is, to the best of my knowledge, the following royal line:
Robert II of France = Constance of Arles
Adela = Baldwin V, Count of Flanders
1. Baldwin VI = Richilde 2. Matilda = William the Conqueror
(of 1) Baldwin II, Count of Hainault = Ida of Leuven (descendant of Louis IV)
Baldwin III, County of Hainault = Yolande of Guelders (source to here: ES)
Gertrude/Ida of Hainault = Roger III of Tosny (source: Giselbertus of Mons. He may have an early royal descent, but I am not qualified in this area)
Godeheut de Toeni = William I de Mohun (source: Weis' AR, to be backed up when I can find a good review of the Toeni family)
William II de Mohun = Lucy
Sir Reynold de Mohun = Alice de Briwere (probably has a distant royal descent, but again, I am not qualified in this area)
Sir Reynold II de Mohun = Hawise le Fleming (as above, NOT FitzPiers)
Alice de Mohun = Robert V de Beauchamp (he may have a Valletort-Henry I descent, but this seems sketchy to me, e.g. see http://tinyurl.com/9ep28l6, which is also the source for this Mohun-Beauchamp marriage)
[for the rest of the ascent, see above. The Fortescue-Beauchamp connection should be covered in Weis' AR, and I believe the Harris descent from Fortescue is covered in one of the TAG articles on the emigrant]
-Matt Ahlgren
p.s. I am determined to find Nat's article on the early Toenis and will link to it.
brotherly...@gmail.com
I appreciate your help.
Mark
Hal Bradley
Douglas Richardson, "The English Origin of Agnes Harris, Wife of William
Spencer," The American Genealogist 63:1 (Jan 1988), pp. 33 et seq
Hope that helps.
Hal Bradley
Don Stone
> In other words, the ancestry of Agnes (Harris) (Spencer) Edwards only breaks down, as far as I know, in the specific lines mentioned above. Thus her immediate ancestry is indeed proven (have you read the several TAG articles on her?), as is, to the best of my knowledge, the following royal line:
>
> Robert II of France = Constance of Arles
> Adela = Baldwin V, Count of Flanders
> 1. Baldwin VI = Richilde 2. Matilda = William the Conqueror
> (of 1) Baldwin II, Count of Hainault = Ida of Leuven (descendant of Louis IV)
> Baldwin III, County of Hainault = Yolande of Guelders (source to here: ES)
> Gertrude/Ida of Hainault = Roger III of Tosny (source: Giselbertus of Mons. He may have an early royal descent, but I am not qualified in this area)
> Godeheut de Toeni = William I de Mohun (source: Weis' AR, to be backed up when I can find a good review of the Toeni family)
> William II de Mohun = Lucy
> Sir Reynold de Mohun = Alice de Briwere (probably has a distant royal descent, but again, I am not qualified in this area)
> Sir Reynold II de Mohun = Hawise le Fleming (as above, NOT FitzPiers)
> Alice de Mohun = Robert V de Beauchamp (he may have a Valletort-Henry I descent, but this seems sketchy to me, e.g. see http://tinyurl.com/9ep28l6, which is also the source for this Mohun-Beauchamp marriage)
> [for the rest of the ascent, see above. The Fortescue-Beauchamp connection should be covered in Weis' AR, and I believe the Harris descent from Fortescue is covered in one of the TAG articles on the emigrant]
>
> -Matt Ahlgren
>
> p.s. I am determined to find Nat's article on the early Toenis and will link to it.
of the Tosny family"?
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bobwolfe/gentxt/Origin_and_early_generations_of_the_Tosny_family.pdf
-- Don Stone
Joe
> John de Beauchamp (d. 1336) = Alice (NOT d. and heiress of Roger Nonant)
> John de Beauchamp (d. 1349) = Joan (NOT Margaret Whalesborough, who descends from King John through the Champernouns; she is the wife of John's same-named 2nd cousin, the 2nd Lord Beauchamp*)
> Elizabeth de Beauchamp = William de Fortescue
Joan and not Margaret Whalesborough? I have the John who died in 1336
having an unknown 1st wife Joan but not the one who died in 1349.
What is your king John descent for Margaret Whalesborough?
Joe
David Teague
Since "This day is called the feast of Crispian," and all that, I was just wondering how many of us have ancestors who were present on this date in 1415, at the Battle of Agincourt.
David Teague
Adrienne Boaz
My ancestor, Richard de Radcliffe of Radcliffe Tower, who was born in approximately 1379, was contracted to bring three men-at-arms and nine foot archers to King Henry V to cross the channel, and he very likely fought in what was later to be known as the Siege of Harfleur, and the Battle at Agincourt.
- Adrienne Boaz
________________________________
From: David Teague <davt...@hotmail.com>
To: "GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com" <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 7:37 PM
Subject: Ancestors at Agincourt
Since "This day is called the feast of Crispian," and all that, I was just wondering how many of us have ancestors who were present on this date in 1415, at the Battle of Agincourt.
David Teague
-------------------------------
Doug Smith
Doug
Steve Riggan
I only remember two relatives there. . . my ancestral uncle Michael de la Pole, 3rd Earl of Suffolk. His father Michael de la Pole, 2nd Earl was my ancestor who died two months earlier at the Siege of Harfleur which led into the Battle of Agincourt. I also have Dafydd Gam, ancestor of the Herbert Earls of Pembroke, who was at Agincourt as well.
Steve Riggan
Monica Kanellis
Ralph Bostock
John Savage
Richard Wydeville
Walter Hungerford
Nicholas Hawte
Dafydd Gam
Thomas ap Guillem Herbert
Robert Swynnerton
John Assheton
MK
Leo
and you will receive 52 names
Leo
From: "Steve Riggan" <sri...@hotmail.com>
To: <davt...@hotmail.com>; "Medieval genealogy discussion group"
<gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 1:28 PM
Subject: RE: Ancestors at Agincourt
>
> I only remember two relatives there. . . my ancestral uncle Michael de la
> Pole, 3rd Earl of Suffolk. His father Michael de la Pole, 2nd Earl was my
> ancestor who died two months earlier at the Siege of Harfleur which led
> into the Battle of Agincourt. I also have Dafydd Gam, ancestor of the
> Herbert Earls of Pembroke, who was at Agincourt as well.
> Steve Riggan
>
>
>
>
>> From: davt...@hotmail.com
>> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
>> Subject: Ancestors at Agincourt
>> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 23:37:38 +0000
>>
>>
Wjhonson
-----Original Message-----
From: Adrienne Boaz <adrien...@yahoo.com>
To: David Teague <davt...@hotmail.com>; Gen <GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thu, Oct 25, 2012 5:47 pm
Subject: Re: Ancestors at Agincourt
Hi David,
My ancestor, Richard de Radcliffe of Radcliffe Tower, who was born in
approximately 1379, was contracted to bring three men-at-arms and nine foot
archers to King Henry V to cross the channel, and he very likely fought in what
was later to be known as the Siege of Harfleur, and the Battle at Agincourt.
- Adrienne Boaz
________________________________
From: David Teague <davt...@hotmail.com>
To: "GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com" <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 7:37 PM
Subject: Ancestors at Agincourt
Bronwen Edwards
> Since "This day is called the feast of Crispian," and all that, I was just wondering how many of us have ancestors who were present on this date in 1415, at the Battle of Agincourt.
>
>
>
> David Teague
Adrian Parry
battle of Agincourt.
Adrian
Yorkshire
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Teague" <davt...@hotmail.com>
To: "GEN-ME...@rootsweb.com" <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
John H
Richard De Vere 11th Earl of Oxford was on of the commanders.
Husband of Alice SERGEAUX.
John H.
"David Teague" <davt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.9.135120826...@rootsweb.com...
Monica Kanellis
dying.
On Thu, Oct 25, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Leo <can...@netspeed.com.au> wrote:
> If you go to Genealogics under name search in place of death enter
> Agincourt
> and you will receive 52 names
>
> Leo
> From: "Steve Riggan" <sri...@hotmail.com>
> To: <davt...@hotmail.com>; "Medieval genealogy discussion group"
> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 1:28 PM
> Subject: RE: Ancestors at Agincourt
>
>
> >
> > I only remember two relatives there. . . my ancestral uncle Michael de la
> > Pole, 3rd Earl of Suffolk. His father Michael de la Pole, 2nd Earl was
> my
> > ancestor who died two months earlier at the Siege of Harfleur which led
> > into the Battle of Agincourt. I also have Dafydd Gam, ancestor of the
> > Herbert Earls of Pembroke, who was at Agincourt as well.
> > Steve Riggan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: davt...@hotmail.com
> >> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> >> Subject: Ancestors at Agincourt
> >> Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2012 23:37:38 +0000
> >>
> >>
> >> just wondering how many of us have ancestors who were present on this
> >> date in 1415, at the Battle of Agincourt.
> >>
> >> David Teague
> >>
Steve Riggan
I didn't realize Richard de Vere fought at Agincourt and I see he survived and married several times. He is another "ancestral" uncle as his wife Alice Sergeaux was a sister to one of my ancestresses Elizabeth Sergeaux, wife of Sir William Marney. He also may be an ancestor if we can ever prove our immigrant ancestor Thomas Keene of Kent Island, MD descent from the Gosnolds of England who, in turn, descend from Richard de Vere.
David Teague
Mine is Sir John Chichester, through his 7x great grandson, the Maryland Quaker immigrant John Baynard.
Thanks to everyone who responded, whichever side they descend from.
David Teague
> From: sri...@hotmail.com
> To: john...@gmail.com; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: RE: Ancestors at Agincourt
> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 13:06:17 -0700
>
>
> I didn't realize Richard de Vere fought at Agincourt and I see he survived and married several times. He is another "ancestral" uncle as his wife Alice Sergeaux was a sister to one of my ancestresses Elizabeth Sergeaux, wife of Sir William Marney. He also may be an ancestor if we can ever prove our immigrant ancestor Thomas Keene of Kent Island, MD descent from the Gosnolds of England who, in turn, descend from Richard de Vere.
>
>
> > From: John...@gmail.com
> > Subject: Re: Ancestors at Agincourt
> > Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 20:10:11 +1030
> > To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> >
> >
James Dow Allen
for research. But I do make some effort to
keep up-to-date and apply corrections.
On Oct 21, 10:49 am, Matt A <starwarsge...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am aware of four common misconceptions about Agnes (Harris) (Spencer) Edwards:
>
> 1. There is allegedly a line to Henry I, thus (presented by James Dow Allen):
> 1731. Philippa Talbot
>
> "The lineage depends on the interpreation of a document in the papal registers in which the
> brother of Elizabeth de Clanvowe claimed to be the nephew ("nepos" in Latin) of a Talbot.
" poss. Philippa TALBOT OR: prob. (Miss) BREDWARDINE"
on my website, and, as you can see at
http://fabpedigree.com/s003/f046896.htm
Richardson's interpretaion is already mentioned.
It's hard for me to check exactly when I made this correction,
but I think it was four and a-half years ago.
James
Johnno H
Richard de Vere was the father of Richard & John, John was 12th Earl of Oxford is the one who married into my ancestors line, so no actual direct link to me.
Alice Sergeaux was Richards 2nd wife and mother of John ... as I have it!
Richards 1st wife being Alice HOLLAND daughter of John Holland 1st Duke of Exeter and it appears there was no issue from that marriage.
Havent gone anywhere aside on them, as it is John and his children that are in my ancestral line through marriage.
John above married Elizabeth HOWARD daughter of Sir John HOWARD and wife Joan (nee de WALTON).
John and Elizabeth had (to my knowledge anyway, as I havent really gone into them much)
4 children namely: Aubrey; John; George; & Richard.
John (12th Earl) was beheaded at Tower of London 26/2/1462 as was his son Aubrey 6 days earlier on 20/2/1462.
The younger son John becoming 13th Earl.
Lots of these people in those days had multiple wives (not at same time though < big grin>).
John H
----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Riggan
Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2012 6:36 AM
Subject: RE: Ancestors at Agincourt
> From: John...@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: Ancestors at Agincourt
> Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2012 20:10:11 +1030
> To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
>
>
wjhonson
Today I was working my way through the family of the Wodehouse of Kimberly as there are several connections I didn't yet have.
John Wodehouse fought at Agincourt but lived to leave a Will dated 15 Jan 1430.
He is ancestral to both Princess Diana and Sarah Ferguson Duchess of York
Not however to myself as far as I yet can tell.