Notes from Canada
Evan Kirshenbaum
visiting our metric neighbor to the north. (Vancouver, to be exact.)
- Ate at a Mongolian barbecue whose handwritten signs referred to
their "34 oz bowls".
- (Non-chain) place selling "footlong subs".
- Billboard advertising "1.29 acres" of land for sale (no metric
equivalent).
- From the Sports Hall of Fame (inside BC Place):
Dear Patrons,
Please do not remove this piece of sound damping. There is a
window where you can see the stadium 30 feet to your left.
- Two teenagers referring to a quantity of money as "fifty thousand
American".
- It is *really* easy to see where French is mandated by law. About
the only other place it shows up is on packaging at places like
McDonald's.
- Many of the American chains incorporate a maple leaf into their
logo. Nobody else seems to bother.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If you think health care is
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |expensive now, wait until you see
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |what it costs when it's free.
| P.J. O'Rourke
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Spehro Pefhany
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>Before I lose them, I thought I'd post some of the notes I took when
>visiting our metric neighbor to the north. (Vancouver, to be exact.)
>
> - Ate at a Mongolian barbecue whose handwritten signs referred to
> their "34 oz bowls".
I wonder what kind of ounces they might be. I think 7-11 describes
their drink cups by the number of ounces.
> - (Non-chain) place selling "footlong subs".
Subway (the sandwich chain) in Canada sells 12" and 6" subs.
> - Billboard advertising "1.29 acres" of land for sale (no metric
> equivalent).
No, thank goodness.
> - From the Sports Hall of Fame (inside BC Place):
>
> Dear Patrons,
>
> Please do not remove this piece of sound damping. There is a
> window where you can see the stadium 30 feet to your left.
Why not just say "10m", I wonder?
> - Two teenagers referring to a quantity of money as "fifty thousand
> American".
What are you getting at here? Fifty thousand American dollars, or
"fifty grand You-Ess", as opposed to the CAD50,000 that would
otherwise be assumed.
> - It is *really* easy to see where French is mandated by law. About
> the only other place it shows up is on packaging at places like
> McDonald's.
All food packaging is required to be bilingual (food labels have to
meet certain standards). You can sometimes tell the Anglo Canadians in
a French supermarket because we rotate the containers 180 degrees a
few times before remembering it's French on both bloody sides.
> - Many of the American chains incorporate a maple leaf into their
> logo. Nobody else seems to bother.
I think it's a legal requirement or perhaps it's just desirable to use
a different logo than in the US, and tacking the Maple Leaf on there
does the trick, but I'm certainly no expert. Canadian chains and
independents don't have that issue.
One thing I find amusing is when newspapers helpfully translate
information they are given into metric. For example, there are many
police chases that are reported to exceed 160km/h (100mph), but not
150km/h or 170km/h. A recent dog mauling incident in Toronto was
reported as involving a dog weighing between 27 and 34 k. Probably the
Humane Society worker told them the dog weighed between 60 and 75
pounds.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On 28 Aug 2003 10:39:58 -0700, the renowned Evan Kirshenbaum
> <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>
> >Before I lose them, I thought I'd post some of the notes I took when
> >visiting our metric neighbor to the north. (Vancouver, to be exact.)
> >
> > - Ate at a Mongolian barbecue whose handwritten signs referred to
> > their "34 oz bowls".
>
> I wonder what kind of ounces they might be.
I would have assumed the little ones, but I suspect that the bowl was
probably a liter, which is about thirty-four US fluid ounces but over
thirty-five UK fluid ounces.
I forgot to mention the momentary double-take at being asked if I
wanted a pint of beer or a sixteen-ounce "sleeve".
[snip]
> > - From the Sports Hall of Fame (inside BC Place):
> >
> > Dear Patrons,
> >
> > Please do not remove this piece of sound damping. There is a
> > window where you can see the stadium 30 feet to your left.
>
> Why not just say "10m", I wonder?
I was surprised at that one myself and figured that it made pretty
good evidence that the people involved think in feet rather than
meters, since 10 is simpler than 30.
> > - Two teenagers referring to a quantity of money as "fifty
> > thousand American".
>
> What are you getting at here? Fifty thousand American dollars, or
> "fifty grand You-Ess", as opposed to the CAD50,000 that would
> otherwise be assumed.
Just a dig at people who imply that Canadians would never limit
"American" to their southern neighbors.
[snip]
> One thing I find amusing is when newspapers helpfully translate
> information they are given into metric. For example, there are many
> police chases that are reported to exceed 160km/h (100mph), but not
> 150km/h or 170km/h.
But 150km/h wouldn't be as impressive, and you don't know if they
actually hit 170.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The Elizabethans had so many words
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |for the female genitals that it is
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |quite hard to speak a sentence of
|modern English without inadvertently
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |mentioning at least three of them.
(650)857-7572 | Terry Pratchett
R H Draney
gabome whest lit ow filted:
>
>Before I lose them, I thought I'd post some of the notes I took when
>visiting our metric neighbor to the north. (Vancouver, to be exact.)
>
> logo. Nobody else seems to bother.
I've always felt that it conveys no useful additional information, and in fact
creates a certain lack of distinction, for a business clearly serving a Phoenix
clientele to name itself "Phoenix Widget Repair"....r
Harvey Van Sickle
-snip-
> One thing I find amusing is when newspapers helpfully translate
> information they are given into metric. For example, there are
> many police chases that are reported to exceed 160km/h (100mph),
> but not 150km/h or 170km/h. A recent dog mauling incident in
> Toronto was reported as involving a dog weighing between 27 and 34
> k. Probably the Humane Society worker told them the dog weighed
> between 60 and 75 pounds.
I saw one recently -- it may have been when I was in Canada in July,
but could have been back here in the UK -- where some sub-editing
muppet carried the conversion to one decimal place, and came up with
something along the lines of "the item, which weighed approximately
294.8 kilos, was moved the next day...."
--
Cheers, Harvey
Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years;
Southern England for the past 21 years.
(for e-mail, change harvey to whhvs)
Harvey Van Sickle
Spehro Pefhany to Evan Kirshenbaum, as in,
-snip-
>>> - Two teenagers referring to a quantity of money as "fifty
>>> thousand American".
>> What are you getting at here? Fifty thousand American dollars, or
>> "fifty grand You-Ess", as opposed to the CAD50,000 that would
>> otherwise be assumed.
> Just a dig at people who imply that Canadians would never limit
> "American" to their southern neighbors.
Isn't that only ever implied by people who aren't Canadian?
--
Cheers, eh?
sage
Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:4r01wu...@hpl.hp.com...
Hope you enjoyed your trip. However, I'm surprised you seem surprised at
what you've noted, and I'm surprised you found them worthy of note.
It's not surprising people specify "American" dollars in conversation.The $C
wobbles around so much ref. its US cousin; between the mid 60s and high 70s
over about the last year. Yesterday (Aug. 27) it was worth 71.78 cents US.
Last year at the same time (Aug. 19) it was worth 64.08.
Often, the US chains are Canadian registered companies, so why not put a
maple leaf in the logo? The entire provincial franchise for Dunkin' DoNuts
(sp.?) in Quebec has just been taken over by Couche Tarde, a chain of
convenience stores. DD might even get a fleur de lys in its logo. DD's
competition is Tim Horton's, founded in Canada but now US-owned.
Gas(oline) is sold in litres. Oil by the barrel. Speed limits are in km/h
highway speeds usually 100 max and 60 min. In town, watch for 40.
Forest fire devastation (since your reference is to British Columbia) and
other forestry associated land measures are officially quoted in hectares.
Yet lumber volume is measured in board feet. Pulp and paper are sold in
tonnes. Scientific and engineerings units are usually SI, certainly in the
industry I'm most familiar with.
Not sure what you mean by "It is *really* easy to see where French is
mandated". But it is easy, certainly at federal (and often provincial)
buildings or parks. All packaging must be in both languages and not just
under the Golden Arches. And it's not something to worry about ... so come
on down and spend your lovely lolly. :)
Cheers, Sage
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Hope you enjoyed your trip. However, I'm surprised you seem
> surprised at what you've noted, and I'm surprised you found them
> worthy of note.
I had just thought that our friends to the north were further along
the road to Metric Nirvanah than was displayed.
> It's not surprising people specify "American" dollars in
> conversation.The $C wobbles around so much ref. its US cousin;
> between the mid 60s and high 70s over about the last year. Yesterday
> (Aug. 27) it was worth 71.78 cents US. Last year at the same time
> (Aug. 19) it was worth 64.08.
Yes, but "American"? Didn't they see that they were just giving in to
the imperialist designs of the US on the whole of the American
continent, from the Arctic Ocean all the way down to Tierra del Fuego?
> Often, the US chains are Canadian registered companies, so why not
> put a maple leaf in the logo? The entire provincial franchise for
> Dunkin' DoNuts (sp.?) in Quebec has just been taken over by Couche
> Tarde, a chain of convenience stores. DD might even get a fleur de
> lys in its logo. DD's competition is Tim Horton's, founded in Canada
> but now US-owned.
I just thought it interesting that the only firms that seemed to feel
the need to shout "We're Canadian" were those that would otherwise be
perceived as American. It seemed a case of Americans being the ones
to wave the flag--even if it isn't ours.
It was also interesting walking into a Sears that was advertising the
company's fiftieth birthday. Sears in the US was founded in 1886. It
was less amusing to find out that if the razor I bought there to
replace the one I killed didn't work out, I couldn't return it to my
local Sears store, since they're separate companies.
> Gas(oline) is sold in litres. Oil by the barrel. Speed limits are in
> km/h highway speeds usually 100 max and 60 min. In town, watch for
> 40.
Yeah, and it took me a while to figure out what the flashing green
lights meant. (No, I wasn't driving.)
> Not sure what you mean by "It is *really* easy to see where French
> is mandated". But it is easy, certainly at federal (and often
> provincial) buildings or parks. All packaging must be in both
> languages and not just under the Golden Arches.
What I meant was that such places were pretty much the *only* places
where French appeared in this officially bilingual city. Everything
else was in English. Except in the part of Vancouver we were staying
in, where most everything was in Korean and in another section we
drove through where everything was in Chinese. But the only
non-mandated French I noticed was on McDonald's wrapperse, Sears bags,
and one t-shirt proclaiming how important it was for French Canadians
to maintain their language.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Those who would give up essential
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Liberty, to purchase a little
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |temporary Safety, deserve neither
|Liberty nor Safety.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Benjamin Franklin
(650)857-7572
R F
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> It was also interesting walking into a Sears that was advertising the
> company's fiftieth birthday. Sears in the US was founded in 1886. It
> was less amusing to find out that if the razor I bought there to
> replace the one I killed didn't work out, I couldn't return it to my
> local Sears store, since they're separate companies.
Whoa, are you saying you use an *electric* razor? Oy!
R F
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, sage wrote:
> Not sure what you mean by "It is *really* easy to see where French is
> mandated". But it is easy, certainly at federal (and often provincial)
> buildings or parks. All packaging must be in both languages and not just
> under the Golden Arches. And it's not something to worry about ... so come
> on down and spend your lovely lolly. :)
How can someone in the (lower 48 states of the) US come on *down* to
Canada?
Evan Kirshenbaum
Of course.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The misinformation that passes for
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |gospel wisdom about English usage
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |is sometimes astounding.
| Merriam-Webster's Dictionary
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | of English Usage
(650)857-7572
Skitt
> R F writes:
>> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>>> It was also interesting walking into a Sears that was advertising
>>> the company's fiftieth birthday. Sears in the US was founded in
>>> 1886. It was less amusing to find out that if the razor I bought
>>> there to replace the one I killed didn't work out, I couldn't
>>> return it to my local Sears store, since they're separate
>>> companies.
>>
>> Whoa, are you saying you use an *electric* razor? Oy!
>
> Of course.
I think Areff is referring to the razor/shaver thing.
--
Skitt (in SF Bay Area) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
I speak English well -- I learn it from a book!
-- Manuel (Fawlty Towers)
sage
R F <rfon...@mail.wesleyan.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.53.03...@alumni.wesleyan.edu...
It was a reference -- so that you'd all feel at home -- to that Bob Barker
(I think it is) bloke.
Cheers, Sage
Mike Oliver
> - Many of the American chains incorporate a maple leaf into their
> logo. Nobody else seems to bother.
Texans, on the other hand, seem to take every possible opportunity
to remind themselves that they're in Texas.
You can even tell a little from the ad campaigns. Oh, sure,
"Happy cows come from California", but it's a *quantitative*
thing -- air conditioners advertise themselves as "tough as Texas",
the XX of Dos Equis has a Te...as around it, etc etc etc.
The silhouette of the state is ubiquitious (admittedly, it
is kind of elegant-looking). The town square of Denton
has a "Texas Building".
I've danced with two Lauras who introduced themselves, as far
as I could tell, as Lara -- [lara] to my ear, though some
might have heard [lAra]. My "Laura" is [lOra] (or perhaps [lOrV]).
This could be indicative of why I tend to say my "cot" is [kat] --
the thing is that my "caught" is distinguished from "cot" but is
clearly not [kOt]; it's farther forward and lower than "cot", but
hardly rounded at all, whereas my "Laura" vowel is rounded.
Maybe I need to use one of those [A.] or [A:] thingies; never did
figure out just what they meant.
--
Mike
who's been told he'll never really be a Texan
Schultz
>
> Before I lose them, I thought I'd post some of the notes I took when
> visiting our metric neighbor to the north. (Vancouver, to be exact.)
What I want to know is, did you buy maple syrup at the border duty-free?
The kind with genuine Canadian maple syrup in a can that was
manufactured in Swanton, Vermont? That says ""NET 16 FL. OZ. (.473
Liter)" on it?
I don't think the Cannucks really have their hearts in this whole metric
exercise.
\\P. Schultz
Schultz
> <...>
> How can someone in the (lower 48 states of the) US come on *down* to
> Canada?
Across the Ambassador Bridge from Detroit MI to Windsor ON. Almost due
south. We used to go down to Canada all the time. We even rode our bikes
down there, in the old days.
It's warmer in southern Ontario than in Michigan. It's "the sun parlor
of Canada". Search on Google and you'll see.
\\P. Schultz
R F
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Skitt wrote:
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> > R F writes:
> >> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>
> >>> It was also interesting walking into a Sears that was advertising
> >>> the company's fiftieth birthday. Sears in the US was founded in
> >>> 1886. It was less amusing to find out that if the razor I bought
> >>> there to replace the one I killed didn't work out, I couldn't
> >>> return it to my local Sears store, since they're separate
> >>> companies.
> >>
> >> Whoa, are you saying you use an *electric* razor? Oy!
> >
> > Of course.
>
> I think Areff is referring to the razor/shaver thing.
Not really, though that's an interesting issue, if what you mean is that
maybe an electric razor should be called an electric shaver and not an
electric razor. But in my dialect, it's most naturally "electric razor".
No, I was just wondering why someone would use an electric razor when the
acoustic razor (does anyone have a better retronym?), which is to
say, the thing that before my day was called a "safety razor" I
believe, despite all its faults, is superior. I'd think that "electric
shaver" is the preferred term in the industry, TINS.
Mike Oliver
> Not really, though that's an interesting issue, if what you mean is that
> maybe an electric razor should be called an electric shaver and not an
> electric razor. But in my dialect, it's most naturally "electric razor".
> No, I was just wondering why someone would use an electric razor when the
> acoustic razor (does anyone have a better retronym?), which is to
> say, the thing that before my day was called a "safety razor" I
> believe, despite all its faults, is superior.
I agree. It's hard to make a sharp delineation at the edge of your
beard with an electric. Also they don't give you that satisfying
scraping-the-dirt-away feeling.
Mark Brader
> Yeah, and it took me a while to figure out what the flashing green
> lights meant. (No, I wasn't driving.)
Just don't try to carry that knowledge over to any other province.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "You don't SIT IN the traffic jam;
m...@vex.net | you ARE the traffic jam." -- Werner Icking
Harvey Van Sickle
-snip re: Texas is everywhere in Texas-
> The silhouette of the state is ubiquitious (admittedly, it
> is kind of elegant-looking).
Intriguing aesthetic judgement, that.
I always felt it was kind of blobby -- too many right angles to be
elegant. (I associate "elegant" shapes with graceful curves rather
than with right angles.)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Matti Lamprhey
I think this is the first of your Oy!s which is correctly rendered; the
previous ones should all have been Oi!s.
I hope you can understand the distinction and apply it correctly in
future. I'm sure Christopher has no trouble with it.
Matti
Ross Howard
<harve...@ntlworld.com> wrought:
>On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:34:58 GMT, Mike Oliver wrote
>
>
>-snip re: Texas is everywhere in Texas-
>
>
>> The silhouette of the state is ubiquitious (admittedly, it
>> is kind of elegant-looking).
>
>Intriguing aesthetic judgement, that.
>
>I always felt it was kind of blobby -- too many right angles to be
>elegant. (I associate "elegant" shapes with graceful curves rather
>than with right angles.)
To me it always looks like it was supposed to be Australia and they
forgot to stick on the anamorphic lens for Cinemascope.
***********
Ross Howard
rzed
?? What is it this time, Richard? Don't they exist in Brooklyn
(Largest Borough in the New York Megaplex)? Or is it that, as a male
contributor to this group, he doesn't sport a lush and untrimmed
growth of facial hair? What?
--
rzed
Spehro Pefhany
<rfon...@mail.wesleyan.edu> wrote:
>Not really, though that's an interesting issue, if what you mean is that
>maybe an electric razor should be called an electric shaver and not an
>electric razor. But in my dialect, it's most naturally "electric razor".
>No, I was just wondering why someone would use an electric razor when the
>acoustic razor (does anyone have a better retronym?),
Acoustic? Do you have one that blasts your stubble off with
ultrasonics? I'd call mine a mechanical (or non-electric, but that's
boring) razor if I had to be very clear on the type.
>which is to
>say, the thing that before my day was called a "safety razor" I
>believe, despite all its faults, is superior. I'd think that "electric
>shaver" is the preferred term in the industry, TINS.
"Electric shaver" 52,900
"Electric razor" 36,300
"Electronic shaver" 142
"Electronic razor" 134
I see that the manufacturer of mine (Gillette) would prefer that I
call it a "twin-blade shaving system".
Mike Lyle
[...]
--
Mike
who's been told he'll never really be a Texan
Maybe your Spanish isn't good enough yet, amigo. (Or should that be "hombre"?)
Mike.
Mark Browne
<frhukv467o1o9n155...@4ax.com>, Spehro Pefhany
<sp...@interlog.com> writes
>On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:32:46 -0400, the renowned R F
><rfon...@mail.wesleyan.edu> wrote:
>
>>Not really, though that's an interesting issue, if what you mean is that
>>maybe an electric razor should be called an electric shaver and not an
>>electric razor. But in my dialect, it's most naturally "electric razor".
>>No, I was just wondering why someone would use an electric razor when the
>>acoustic razor (does anyone have a better retronym?),
>
>Acoustic? Do you have one that blasts your stubble off with
>ultrasonics? I'd call mine a mechanical (or non-electric, but that's
>boring) razor if I had to be very clear on the type.
I would call it a wet razor.
--
Mark Browne
If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the
"From" address will be rejected
Dean Tiegs
> Evan Kirshenbaum writes:
>> Yeah, and it took me a while to figure out what the flashing green
>> lights meant. (No, I wasn't driving.)
>
> Just don't try to carry that knowledge over to any other province.
Yes, in Alberta (and possibly every province except B.C.) a flashing
green means opposing traffic is facing a red, so you can go ahead and
make a left. I did a lot of B.C. driving before I learned that there
a flashing green just means the light is pedestrian activated and
cross traffic has stops signs and no traffic lights. It's a wonder
I'm still alive.
--
Dean Tiegs, NE¼-20-52-25-W4
“Confortare et esto robustus”
http://telusplanet.net/public/dctiegs/
Evan Kirshenbaum
> R F wrote:
>
> > Not really, though that's an interesting issue, if what you mean
> > is that maybe an electric razor should be called an electric
> > shaver and not an electric razor. But in my dialect, it's most
> > naturally "electric razor". No, I was just wondering why someone
> > would use an electric razor when the acoustic razor (does anyone
> > have a better retronym?),
I think I usually go with "manual".
> > which is to say, the thing that before my day was called a "safety
> > razor" I believe, despite all its faults, is superior.
I've gone back and forth over the years, but I've been electric for
some time now. I agree that the shave isn't as close, but it's close
enough for my tolerances (and, more importantly, Susan's). And I find
that it takes less concentration (and time) and doesn't tie you to a
sink.
> I agree. It's hard to make a sharp delineation at the edge of your
> beard with an electric.
I suspect that if I found myself with a beard that had an edge that
needed a sharp delineation I might take that into account, although I
suspect that the trimmer on my razor would probably work. (It's good
enough for sideburns.)
> Also they don't give you that satisfying scraping-the-dirt-away
> feeling.
Not to mention the satisfying dabbing-the-blood-away feeling.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Now and then an innocent man is sent
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to the legislature.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Kim Hubbard
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum writes:
> > Yeah, and it took me a while to figure out what the flashing green
> > lights meant. (No, I wasn't driving.)
>
> Just don't try to carry that knowledge over to any other province.
Oh. That's too bad. I actually thought it was a good idea.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |In the beginning, there were no
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |reasons, there were only causes.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Daniel Dennet
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Spehro Pefhany
<dat2...@telus.net> wrote:
>m...@vex.net (Mark Brader) writes:
>
>> Evan Kirshenbaum writes:
>>> Yeah, and it took me a while to figure out what the flashing green
>>> lights meant. (No, I wasn't driving.)
>>
>> Just don't try to carry that knowledge over to any other province.
>
>Yes, in Alberta (and possibly every province except B.C.) a flashing
>green means opposing traffic is facing a red, so you can go ahead and
>make a left. I did a lot of B.C. driving before I learned that there
>a flashing green just means the light is pedestrian activated and
>cross traffic has stops signs and no traffic lights. It's a wonder
>I'm still alive.
There was a move to standardize flashing green nation-wide. I think
there were some places in the prairie provinces where the green
flashed just because it was more visible than a solid green.
ObAUE: "stops signs"?
Mike Oliver
My Spanish is pretty much reading-only, but I don't believe that's
the problem. I've actually met very few hispanohablantes here. I
think they mostly live in South Texas.
Which brings up another point -- to me "South Texas" ought to be the
name of a *state*, not a part of a state. I'd want to call the
region "Southern Texas". But "South Texas" seems to be the accepted
form. It seems to be repeated at other levels -- North Denton and
South Denton are parts of Denton, not burbs, unless you think Denton
itself is a burb.
Skitt
> Spehro Pefhany writes:
>> R F wrote:
>>> Not really, though that's an interesting issue, if what you mean is
>>> that maybe an electric razor should be called an electric shaver
>>> and not an electric razor. But in my dialect, it's most naturally
>>> "electric razor". No, I was just wondering why someone would use an
>>> electric razor when the acoustic razor (does anyone have a better
>>> retronym?),
>>
>> Acoustic? Do you have one that blasts your stubble off with
>> ultrasonics? I'd call mine a mechanical (or non-electric, but that's
>> boring) razor if I had to be very clear on the type.
>
> I would call it a wet razor.
Interestingly, one of my previous electric shavers (a Panasonic cordless)
recommended using it on a wet face or in a shower.
At present, I use an elecric shaver and touch up the result with a "regular"
one, using it dry.
Sara Moffat Lorimer
Go down east, then keep going.
--
SML
Please remove your hat when sending me e-mail
http://www.pirate-women.com
Evan Kirshenbaum
> My Spanish is pretty much reading-only, but I don't believe that's
> the problem. I've actually met very few hispanohablantes here.
Hmm. Is that a regional thing? I would have expected
"hispanoparlantes". Googling Spanish pages shows
hispanohablantes: 17,000
hispanoparlantes: 7,200
The _Diccionario_ of the _Real Academia Española_ lists the second as
a synonym for the first with no regional label for either. Did I
learn the latter because I learned Spanish in Chicago or because my
main teacher came from Barcelona?
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |The Society for the Preservation of
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Tithesis commends your ebriated and
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |scrutable use of delible and
|defatigable, which are gainly, sipid
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |and couth. We are gruntled and
(650)857-7572 |consolate that you have the ertia and
|eptitude to choose such putably
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |pensible tithesis, which we parage.
Harvey Van Sickle
-snip-
> At present, I use an elecric shaver and touch up the result with a
> "regular" one, using it dry.
Same same. Once a hair's escaped the shaver, it tends to stay escaped
and can grow a bit, but it's not sufficiently annoying to go back to
all the palaver of wet shaving.
Mike Lyle
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, in message
> <frhukv467o1o9n155...@4ax.com>, Spehro Pefhany
> <sp...@interlog.com> writes
> >On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:32:46 -0400, the renowned R F
> ><rfon...@mail.wesleyan.edu> wrote:
> >
> >>No, I was just wondering why someone would use an electric razor when the
> >>acoustic razor (does anyone have a better retronym?),
> >
> >Acoustic? Do you have one that blasts your stubble off with
> >ultrasonics? I'd call mine a mechanical (or non-electric, but that's
> >boring) razor if I had to be very clear on the type.
>
> I would call it a wet razor.
An analogue razor?
Mike.
sage
Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote in message
news:ad9sv4...@hpl.hp.com...
They've just introduced right turns on red in Quebec. At least, they've
tried to. It is forbidden on the island of Montreal and in many towns
elsewhere in the province. There hasn't been much objection to the bans;
especially from pedestrians. It's good to know that drivers here know their
limitations -- impatience being one of the biggest.
Cheers, Sage
>
sage
Schultz <yan...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:3F4EC7D5...@erols.com...
You mean the can was made in Vermont?
You aren't wrong about the hearts comment. But some of us have to use SI
anyway. And there's a whole new generation of younger people coming along
who know only metric.
ObsAUE (Is that how you do it?): It's Canucks, by the by; one "n" will do.
And we spell them "litre" and "metre".
Cheers, Sage
Areff
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, in message
> <frhukv467o1o9n155...@4ax.com>, Spehro Pefhany
> <sp...@interlog.com> writes
> >On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:32:46 -0400, the renowned R F
> ><rfon...@mail.wesleyan.edu> wrote:
> >
> >>Not really, though that's an interesting issue, if what you mean is that
> >>maybe an electric razor should be called an electric shaver and not an
> >>electric razor. But in my dialect, it's most naturally "electric razor".
> >>No, I was just wondering why someone would use an electric razor when the
> >>acoustic razor (does anyone have a better retronym?),
> >
> >Acoustic? Do you have one that blasts your stubble off with
> >ultrasonics? I'd call mine a mechanical (or non-electric, but that's
> >boring) razor if I had to be very clear on the type.
>
> I would call it a wet razor.
But there's one or more brands of electric razors that are capable of
being used in 'wet' environments, from what I gather.
I have a problem with "mechanical razor" as the term, because
"mechanical" to me suggests some more intricate sort of machinery than
the typical such razor has. But 'mechanical razor' may be as good a
retronymic term as any.
Harvey Van Sickle
-snip-
> I have a problem with "mechanical razor" as the term, because
> "mechanical" to me suggests some more intricate sort of machinery
> than the typical such razor has. But 'mechanical razor' may be as
> good a retronymic term as any.
I don't think so, meself: I'd restrict "mechanical razor" to those
clockwork-shaver contraptions you occasionally see at antique fairs.
(At least, I don't think I'm imagining those -- quite certain I've seen
old ones that were worked by a wind-up spring.....)
--
Cheers, Harvey
Tony Cooper
wrote:
Mechanical razors have, of course, appeared on the market. My father
had one with a wind-up action that caused the head to vibrate. He
didn't use it, but kept it around as a novelty. It used the regular
double-edge Gillette blades.
Jerry Friedman
> Mike Oliver <oli...@cs.ucla.edu> writes:
>
> > My Spanish is pretty much reading-only, but I don't believe that's
> > the problem. I've actually met very few hispanohablantes here.
>
> Hmm. Is that a regional thing? I would have expected
> "hispanoparlantes". Googling Spanish pages shows
>
> hispanohablantes: 17,000
> hispanoparlantes: 7,200
And a mere 47 for "hispanoblantes", which is not in the DRAE, but you
can find it a lot on a.u.s.
> The _Diccionario_ of the _Real Academia Española_ lists the second as
> a synonym for the first with no regional label for either. Did I
> learn the latter because I learned Spanish in Chicago or because my
> main teacher came from Barcelona?
You could ask on a.u.s.
--
Jerry Friedman
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote
> > The _Diccionario_ of the _Real Academia Española_ lists the second
> > as a synonym for the first with no regional label for either. Did
> > I learn the latter because I learned Spanish in Chicago or because
> > my main teacher came from Barcelona?
>
> You could ask on a.u.s.
Yeah, but then I'd have to be embarazado[1] about my poor level of
fluency.
[1] Yeah, I know.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |English is about as pure as a
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |cribhouse whore. We don't just
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |borrow words; on occasion, English
|has pursued other languages down
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |alleyways to beat them unconscious
(650)857-7572 |and rifle their pockets for new
|vocabulary.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | --James D. Nicoll
Robert Bannister
> No, I was just wondering why someone would use an electric razor when the
> acoustic razor (does anyone have a better retronym?), which is to
> say, the thing that before my day was called a "safety razor"
Round these parts, it's usually known as 'wet shaving'.
I
> believe, despite all its faults, is superior.
I agree.
--
Rob Bannister
Schultz
> <...> the
> acoustic razor (does anyone have a better retronym?), <...>
The analog razor.
\\P. Schultz
Spehro Pefhany
There were some sold in the US perhaps 15-30 years ago by a mail-order
outfit called Haverhill. I think they imported them from an
manufacturer in Monaco. It sticks in my mind because the founder said
he was frequently audited by the IRS and he took great pleasure in
being able to write off side-trips to that country, which had the
auditor saying things like "Aha!" and wielding his "disallowed" stamp.
Schultz
> > The kind with genuine Canadian maple syrup in a can that was
> > manufactured in Swanton, Vermont? That says ""NET 16 FL. OZ. (.473
> You mean the can was made in Vermont? <...>
That's what I said, Bub.
\\P. Schultz
Spehro Pefhany
<yan...@erols.com> wrote:
>R F wrote:
>> <...> the
>> acoustic razor (does anyone have a better retronym?), <...>
>
>The analog razor.
Of course the Japanese (the Yakuza, to be specific) are big on the
digital razor.
Aaron J. Dinkin
> Yes, in Alberta (and possibly every province except B.C.) a flashing
> green means opposing traffic is facing a red, so you can go ahead and
> make a left. I did a lot of B.C. driving before I learned that there
> a flashing green just means the light is pedestrian activated and
> cross traffic has stops signs and no traffic lights. It's a wonder
> I'm still alive.
Massachusetts apparently has the same meaning as B.C. for flashing green,
more or less.
-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Aaron J. Dinkin
> I've danced with two Lauras who introduced themselves, as far
> as I could tell, as Lara -- [lara] to my ear, though some
> might have heard [lAra]. My "Laura" is [lOra] (or perhaps [lOrV]).
I distinguish "Laura" and "Lara" but I think you'd hear both of them as
"Lara": I say "Lara" [lar@] but "Laura" [lA.r@], with my "caught"="cot"
vowel. I certainly don't say [lOr@]; "Laura" doesn't rhyme with "Cora" for
me.
Mike Oliver
> R F wrote:
>> Not really, though that's an interesting issue, if what you mean is that
>> maybe an electric razor should be called an electric shaver and not an
>> electric razor. But in my dialect, it's most naturally "electric razor".
>> acoustic razor (does anyone have a better retronym?), which is to
>> believe, despite all its faults, is superior.
>
> scraping-the-dirt-away feeling.
I want to say, though, that the analogous point regarding teethbreesh
does not hold. I am a recent convert to the electric toothbrush. It
is *far* superior; my teeth are much cleaner.
Jim Heckman
On 29-Aug-2003, "Aaron J. Dinkin" <a...@post.harvard.edu> wrote
in message <GqV3b.229459$It4.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>:
[...]
> I distinguish "Laura" and "Lara" but I think you'd hear both of them as
> "Lara": I say "Lara" [lar@] but "Laura" [lA.r@], with my "caught"="cot"
> vowel. I certainly don't say [lOr@]; "Laura" doesn't rhyme with "Cora" for
> me.
I find this last part interesting. How would you transcribe all this
phonemically? I was under the perhaps erroneous impression that [A.] and
[O] were allophones of a single phoneme for most American CINC'ers, with
[O] before /r/ and perhaps elsewhere.
--
Jim Heckman
Ross Howard
<ja...@marage.demon.co.uk> wrought:
>X-No-Archive: yes
>In article <3F4FF400...@it.net.au>, Robert Bannister
><rob...@it.net.au> writes
>>R F wrote:
>>
>>> No, I was just wondering why someone would use an electric razor when the
>>> acoustic razor (does anyone have a better retronym?), which is to
>>> say, the thing that before my day was called a "safety razor"
>>
>>Round these parts, it's usually known as 'wet shaving'.
>
>Summer's nearly over which means I get back sole use of my electric
>razor. Apply Occam's razor to work out what the hell I'm whibbling
>about.
Do yourself a favour and get her to a beauty parlour to solve the
problem once and for all: Occam's Laser (cutting-edge technology,
innit).
(ObIndieBandNames: Anyone for "Chafed Bikini Line"?)
***********
Ross Howard
Spehro Pefhany
The Braun ones with the rotating bristles work much better than the
ones I remember from twenty or thirty years ago. They are microchip
controlled with two speed/torque settings and use a split-transformer
scheme to recharge without requiring any electrical contacts so the
brush handle mechanism can be almost completely sealed. All they need
now is a proximity sensor and facial recognition to nag kids to brush.
Jonathan Jordan
> On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:34:58 -0500, Mike Oliver <oli...@cs.ucla.edu>
wrote:
>
> > I've danced with two Lauras who introduced themselves, as far
> > as I could tell, as Lara -- [lara] to my ear, though some
> > might have heard [lAra]. My "Laura" is [lOra] (or perhaps [lOrV]).
The unstressed final vowel is open enough to be called [a]?
Actually I once heard "tuna" pronounced with a final vowel which sounded to
me like [A.] (i.e. like my "cot" vowel), but that was in Leicester.
>
> I distinguish "Laura" and "Lara" but I think you'd hear both of them as
> "Lara": I say "Lara" [lar@] but "Laura" [lA.r@], with my "caught"="cot"
> vowel. I certainly don't say [lOr@]; "Laura" doesn't rhyme with "Cora" for
> me.
Whereas I do say [lO:r@] ("caught" vowel) but it still wouldn't rhyme with
"Cora", which would probably be [ko@r@], though I could also imagine
[kA.r@]. Compare "oral"/"aural"/"moral" with [o@], [O:] and [A.]
respectively. I think for many Americans they would all rhyme.
Jonathan
Skitt
> Massachusetts apparently has the same meaning as B.C. for flashing
> green, more or less.
When I flash my green I usually get very good results.
Jerry Friedman
> jerry_f...@yahoo.com (Jerry Friedman) writes:
>
> > Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote
> > > The _Diccionario_ of the _Real Academia Española_ lists the second
> > > as a synonym for the first with no regional label for either. Did
> > > I learn the latter because I learned Spanish in Chicago or because
> > > my main teacher came from Barcelona?
> >
> > You could ask on a.u.s.
>
> Yeah, but then I'd have to be embarazado[1] about my poor level of
> fluency.
Then you could ask in English. A.u.s. was actually founded for
English-language discussions of Spanish, and people still post in
English sometimes.
> [1] Yeah, I know.
!Que' alivio!
--
Jerry Friedman
Mark Brader
> > > Yeah, and it took me a while to figure out what the flashing green
> > > lights meant. (No, I wasn't driving.)
> >
> > Just don't try to carry that knowledge over to any other province.
>
> Oh. That's too bad. I actually thought it was a good idea.
B.C. style flashing green lights, or carrying the knowledge over to
other provinces?
As to the former, they are reported as also occurring in Massachusetts
and a few places in Delaware.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "In my case, self-absorption is
m...@vex.net completely justified." -- LAURA
Mike Oliver
> I have a problem with "mechanical razor" as the term, because
> "mechanical" to me suggests some more intricate sort of machinery than
> the typical such razor has. But 'mechanical razor' may be as good a
> retronymic term as any.
What about "blade razor"? I suppose electrics have blades, but you
don't
usually see them.
Robert Bannister
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:26:03 -0500, the renowned Mike Oliver
> <oli...@cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
>
>
>>Mike Oliver wrote:
>>
>>>R F wrote:
>>>
>>>>Not really, though that's an interesting issue, if what you mean is that
>>>>maybe an electric razor should be called an electric shaver and not an
>>>>electric razor. But in my dialect, it's most naturally "electric razor".
>>>>No, I was just wondering why someone would use an electric razor when the
>>>>acoustic razor (does anyone have a better retronym?), which is to
>>>>say, the thing that before my day was called a "safety razor" I
>>>>believe, despite all its faults, is superior.
>>>
>>>I agree. It's hard to make a sharp delineation at the edge of your
>>>beard with an electric. Also they don't give you that satisfying
>>>scraping-the-dirt-away feeling.
>>
>>I want to say, though, that the analogous point regarding teethbreesh
>>does not hold. I am a recent convert to the electric toothbrush. It
>>is *far* superior; my teeth are much cleaner.
>
>
> The Braun ones with the rotating bristles work much better than the
> ones I remember from twenty or thirty years ago. They are microchip
> controlled with two speed/torque settings and use a split-transformer
> scheme to recharge without requiring any electrical contacts so the
> brush handle mechanism can be almost completely sealed. All they need
> now is a proximity sensor and facial recognition to nag kids to brush.
I gather, from a rather different group that I hang out in, that
electric toothbrushes are sometimes used by teenage girls for purposes
equally satisfying, but other than what was intended by the manufacturers.
--
Rob Bannister
Aaron J. Dinkin
> On 29-Aug-2003, "Aaron J. Dinkin" <a...@post.harvard.edu> wrote
> in message <GqV3b.229459$It4.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>:
>
> [...]
>
>> I distinguish "Laura" and "Lara" but I think you'd hear both of them as
>> "Lara": I say "Lara" [lar@] but "Laura" [lA.r@], with my "caught"="cot"
>> vowel. I certainly don't say [lOr@]; "Laura" doesn't rhyme with "Cora"
>> for me.
>
> I find this last part interesting. How would you transcribe all this
> phonemically?
"Lara": /'lar@/, with /a/ as in "father", "lager", "pasta", "spa", "qat"
"Laura": /'lAr@/, with /A/ as in "bother", "logger", "roster", "law",
"cot", "caught"
"Cora": /'kOr@/, with /O/ as in "bold", "horse", "hoarse".
(I'm assuming that I have a phonemic distinction between /O/ and /o/,
which actually I'm not at all certain of.)
> I was under the perhaps erroneous impression that [A.] and [O] were
> allophones of a single phoneme for most American CINC'ers, with [O]
> before /r/ and perhaps elsewhere.
I'm far from being a CINCer. Well, not that far, since I have a
"father"/"bother" distinction instead. But at any rate, I'm definitely a
CIC, and so my "aw" vowel is phonemically the same as my "short-o"
vowel, not my "o-before-r" vowel. "Laura" is in the "aw" category, whereas
"Cora" is in the "o-before-r" category. So they rhyme in "horse"="hoarse"
CINC dialects.
They also rhyme in CIC dialects that undergo tense/lax neutralization
before r. In such dialects, "short-o" only exists before /r/ in a very
small class of words (usually "sorry", "borrow", "tomorrow") except where
it's merged with "ah"; in all other words, "short-o" before /r/ has become
"o-before-r", and since "aw" is the same as "short-o" in these dialects,
"Laura" takes on the "o-before-r" vowel. In my dialect, tense/lax
neutralization doesn't (necessarily) occur, and so the "short-o"="aw" in
"Laura" doesn't collapse into being an "o-before-r".
Jim Heckman
On 30-Aug-2003, "Aaron J. Dinkin" <a...@post.harvard.edu> wrote
in message <05e4b.311040$Ho3.44481@sccrnsc03>:
> On Sat, 30 Aug 2003 09:07:30 GMT, Jim Heckman
> <wnzrfe...@lnubb.pbz.invalid> wrote:
>
> > On 29-Aug-2003, "Aaron J. Dinkin" <a...@post.harvard.edu> wrote
> > in message <GqV3b.229459$It4.1...@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net>:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> >> I distinguish "Laura" and "Lara" but I think you'd hear both of them as
> >> "Lara": I say "Lara" [lar@] but "Laura" [lA.r@], with my "caught"="cot"
> >> vowel. I certainly don't say [lOr@]; "Laura" doesn't rhyme with "Cora"
> >> for me.
> >
> > I find this last part interesting. How would you transcribe all this
> > phonemically?
>
> "Lara": /'lar@/, with /a/ as in "father", "lager", "pasta", "spa", "qat"
> "Laura": /'lAr@/, with /A/ as in "bother", "logger", "roster", "law",
> "cot", "caught"
> "Cora": /'kOr@/, with /O/ as in "bold", "horse", "hoarse".
Oh, that's right, you've got one of those weird New England
accents that usually maps RP /A:/ to /a/ and merges both RP
/A./, and RP /O:/ except before /r/, to /A/. Is the latter
normally closer to [A] or [A.] for you? You used [A.] in your
previous post.
> (I'm assuming that I have a phonemic distinction between /O/ and /o/,
> which actually I'm not at all certain of.)
Same here. AFAICT, [O] only occurs for me in the sequences [Ol]
(usually from RP /@Ul/), [Oi] (from /OI/) and [Or] (from
/O:(r)/). I go back and forth on how to phonemicize these,
currently tending to think of all /Vl/ and /Vr/ sequences as
diphthongs since my post-vocalic liquids co-occur with only a
restricted set of my vowel nuclei and color them strongly. This
is probably in part the tense/lax neutralization before /r/ you
mention below.
> > I was under the perhaps erroneous impression that [A.] and [O] were
> > allophones of a single phoneme for most American CINC'ers, with [O]
> > before /r/ and perhaps elsewhere.
>
> I'm far from being a CINCer. Well, not that far, since I have a
> "father"/"bother" distinction instead. But at any rate, I'm definitely a
> CIC, and so my "aw" vowel is phonemically the same as my "short-o"
> vowel, not my "o-before-r" vowel. "Laura" is in the "aw" category, whereas
> "Cora" is in the "o-before-r" category. So they rhyme in "horse"="hoarse"
> CINC dialects.
OK, that's what I thought about CINC. Thanks.
> They also rhyme in CIC dialects that undergo tense/lax neutralization
> before r. In such dialects, "short-o" only exists before /r/ in a very
> small class of words (usually "sorry", "borrow", "tomorrow") except where
> it's merged with "ah"; in all other words, "short-o" before /r/ has become
> "o-before-r", and since "aw" is the same as "short-o" in these dialects,
> "Laura" takes on the "o-before-r" vowel.
Yes, that describes my dialect, Southern Californian.
> In my dialect, tense/lax
> neutralization doesn't (necessarily) occur, and so the "short-o"="aw" in
> "Laura" doesn't collapse into being an "o-before-r".
--
Jim Heckman
Aaron J. Dinkin
> On 30-Aug-2003, "Aaron J. Dinkin" <a...@post.harvard.edu> wrote
> in message <05e4b.311040$Ho3.44481@sccrnsc03>:
>
>> "Lara": /'lar@/, with /a/ as in "father", "lager", "pasta", "spa", "qat"
>> "Laura": /'lAr@/, with /A/ as in "bother", "logger", "roster", "law",
>> "cot", "caught"
>> "Cora": /'kOr@/, with /O/ as in "bold", "horse", "hoarse".
>
> Oh, that's right, you've got one of those weird New England
> accents that usually maps RP /A:/ to /a/ and merges both RP
> /A./, and RP /O:/ except before /r/, to /A/.
Actually, that's a perfectly typical New England accent...
> Is the latter normally closer to [A] or [A.] for you? You used [A.] in
> your previous post.
It's generally a lightly rounded [A.]. I often call it /A/ for the sake of
conciseness or comparisons to other US accents.
> AFAICT, [O] only occurs for me in the sequences [Ol] (usually from RP
> /@Ul/), [Oi] (from /OI/) and [Or] (from /O:(r)/).
Ditto for me. My "bold" is essentially identical to RP "bald".
> I go back and forth on how to phonemicize these, currently tending to
> think of all /Vl/ and /Vr/ sequences as diphthongs since my post-vocalic
> liquids co-occur with only a restricted set of my vowel nuclei and color
> them strongly.
Well, you're probably justified at least as far as the /r/ ones: [r]
really is as much a semivowel as [w] and [j] are, as far as I understand.
[l] is more consonantal, though not by much.
> This is probably in part the tense/lax neutralization before /r/ you
> mention below.
Probably. In Rightpondia and the urban Northeast of the U.S., the
so-called short vowels /& E I A V/ (where by /A/ I mean the "cot" vowel)
are free to appear before an /r/ that begins the following syllable, in
words like "marry", "merry", "mirror", "orange", and "curry". In dialects
that have undergone tense-lax neutralization, the short vowels in these
words are replaced by the vowels that can appear before tautosyllabic /r/,
so the five words above have the same vowels as "mare", "mare", "mere",
"or", and "cur", respectively.
("Tautosyllabic" just means 'in the same syllable'. In fact, I think
another way to describe the same phenomenon is to say that in dialects
with tense/lax neutralization, an /r/ between two vowels is always part of
the first syllable, while in dialects without, it isn't necessarily.)
Jonathan Jordan
news:vl5ms8a...@corp.supernews.com...
<snip>
> Same here. AFAICT, [O] only occurs for me in the sequences [Ol]
> (usually from RP /@Ul/), [Oi] (from /OI/) and [Or] (from
> /O:(r)/). I go back and forth on how to phonemicize these,
> currently tending to think of all /Vl/ and /Vr/ sequences as
> diphthongs since my post-vocalic liquids co-occur with only a
> restricted set of my vowel nuclei and color them strongly. This
> is probably in part the tense/lax neutralization before /r/ you
> mention below.
What are the restrictions on your vowels before /l/? Do they also apply
if the /l/ is followed by another vowel?
My dialect (northern English) seems to have lost (or very nearly lost)
the RP /A.l/~/@Ul/ distinction in word-final or pre-consonantal position
(so "doll" and "dole" are homophones and "gold" and "golf" only differ in
the final consonant) but I still have the distinction if the /l/ is
followed by a vowel - "holly" and "holy" are distinct.
Jonathan
Jens Brix Christiansen
>
> I had just thought that our friends to the north were further along
> the road to Metric Nirvanah than was displayed.
It's a long and winding road. Denmark introduced the metric system in
1907 with a three-year phase-in process. Everyone has learned metric
units exclusively in school for generations. Even so, the following
traditional units are still widely used:
Engines for motor vehicles have their power rated in horsepower in
Denmark, but most other engines are rated in metric units - kilowatts
or megawatts.
The area of small farms are colloquially given in "tønder land", a
specifically Danish pre-metric measurement of roughly 5500 square
meters. But they are routinely converted to hectares when
communicated formally. Lots for homes are are invariably metric
(square meters), and areas larger than the typical farm are also
metric (square kilometers).
The traditional Danish pound (pund) went metric on its own back in the
1850s when it was redefined to exactly 500 g. This may be one of the
reasons that it is still widely used informally. It is especially
likely to be used by someone by someone buying butter in a bakery on a
weekend morning.
Jim Heckman
On 1-Sep-2003, "Jonathan Jordan" <jonatha...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote
in message <biv590$d96hd$1...@ID-162222.news.uni-berlin.de>:
> "Jim Heckman" <wnzrfe...@lnubb.pbz.invalid> wrote in message
> news:vl5ms8a...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> <snip>
>
> > Same here. AFAICT, [O] only occurs for me in the sequences [Ol]
> > (usually from RP /@Ul/), [Oi] (from /OI/) and [Or] (from
> > /O:(r)/). I go back and forth on how to phonemicize these,
> > currently tending to think of all /Vl/ and /Vr/ sequences as
> > diphthongs since my post-vocalic liquids co-occur with only a
> > restricted set of my vowel nuclei and color them strongly. This
> > is probably in part the tense/lax neutralization before /r/ you
> > mention below.
>
> What are the restrictions on your vowels before /l/? Do they also apply
> if the /l/ is followed by another vowel?
After my tense vowels with high off-glides /i e u/ ~ [ij, ej,
uw], my syllable-final /l/, which is normally 'dark'/velarized,
tends itself to syllabify, so words like <peal>, <pale> and
<pool> are almost bi-syllabic in my native dialect of
Bakersfield, CA. (This tendency is somewhat reduced in my
current speech, influenced by exposure to General American.)
Also, as noted above, my remaining tense high vowel /o/ ~ [ow],
in what would historically be expected to be the sequence /ol/,
loses the off-glide and lowers, becoming [Ol]. If I had to
pronounce an 'real' /ol/, the /l/ would tend to syllabify just
as for /i e u/. Finally, there seems to be the beginning of a
merger between my syllable-final /@l/ and /Ul/, especially after
labials; the nuclei of my <pull> and <pulp> are only marginally
distinguished.
The restrictions don't apply when /l/ is followed by another
vowel in the same word, but interestingly the /l/ definitely
belongs to the second syllable when the first vowel is one of /i
e u/, while it tends to belong to the first syllable otherwise.
Cf. Aaron's description of tautosyllabic /r/ in dialects with
tense/lax neutralization before /r/.
> My dialect (northern English) seems to have lost (or very nearly lost)
> the RP /A.l/~/@Ul/ distinction in word-final or pre-consonantal position
> (so "doll" and "dole" are homophones and "gold" and "golf" only differ in
> the final consonant) but I still have the distinction if the /l/ is
> followed by a vowel - "holly" and "holy" are distinct.
How does the merger work? Is <doll>/<dole> closer to [dA.l] or
[d@Ul], or is it something in between?
--
Jim Heckman
Jonathan Jordan
>
> On 1-Sep-2003, "Jonathan Jordan" <jonatha...@sheffield.ac.uk>
wrote
> in message <biv590$d96hd$1...@ID-162222.news.uni-berlin.de>:
>
> > "Jim Heckman" <wnzrfe...@lnubb.pbz.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:vl5ms8a...@corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > Same here. AFAICT, [O] only occurs for me in the sequences [Ol]
> > > (usually from RP /@Ul/), [Oi] (from /OI/) and [Or] (from
> > > /O:(r)/). I go back and forth on how to phonemicize these,
> > > currently tending to think of all /Vl/ and /Vr/ sequences as
> > > diphthongs since my post-vocalic liquids co-occur with only a
> > > restricted set of my vowel nuclei and color them strongly. This
> > > is probably in part the tense/lax neutralization before /r/ you
> > > mention below.
> >
> > What are the restrictions on your vowels before /l/? Do they also
apply
> > if the /l/ is followed by another vowel?
>
> After my tense vowels with high off-glides /i e u/ ~ [ij, ej,
> uw], my syllable-final /l/, which is normally 'dark'/velarized,
> tends itself to syllabify, so words like <peal>, <pale> and
> <pool> are almost bi-syllabic in my native dialect of
> Bakersfield, CA. (This tendency is somewhat reduced in my
> current speech, influenced by exposure to General American.)
Some similarity here, in that my /i/ and /e/ (and also /aI/ and /OI/)
develop something like a schwa inglide - "feel fail file foil" comes out
like [fi@l fe@l faI@l fOI@l] - but I still perceive them as one syllable.
My /ul/ doesn't do anything like this, though. It seems to be something
like [U:l], whereas the usual allophones of /u/ before other consonants
seem to be close to [u":] (long barred u). I've heard other northern
English accents (north-west, I think, e.g. Liverpool and Manchester) with
a strongly fronted /u/ even before /l/.
> Also, as noted above, my remaining tense high vowel /o/ ~ [ow],
> in what would historically be expected to be the sequence /ol/,
> loses the off-glide and lowers, becoming [Ol]. If I had to
> pronounce an 'real' /ol/, the /l/ would tend to syllabify just
> as for /i e u/. Finally, there seems to be the beginning of a
> merger between my syllable-final /@l/ and /Ul/, especially after
> labials; the nuclei of my <pull> and <pulp> are only marginally
> distinguished.
Of course in traditional northern English accents the opposition you're
calling /@/~/U/ never developed. I do have it, but with a rounded vowel
in "putt", "pulp", "cut" etc. The distinction seems to be as strong
before /l/ as anywhere else.
> The restrictions don't apply when /l/ is followed by another
> vowel in the same word, but interestingly the /l/ definitely
> belongs to the second syllable when the first vowel is one of /i
> e u/, while it tends to belong to the first syllable otherwise.
> Cf. Aaron's description of tautosyllabic /r/ in dialects with
> tense/lax neutralization before /r/.
I don't have the schwa glides I mentioned if the /l/ is followed by a
vowel, except in "really", which is probably evidence that "real" should
have /I@/ like "idea" and "theatre".
This reminds me of a question I meant to ask about a similar issue: in
these American dialects that merge /I/ and /E/ before nasals, do they
also do this if the nasal is followed by another vowel?
>
> > My dialect (northern English) seems to have lost (or very nearly
lost)
> > the RP /A.l/~/@Ul/ distinction in word-final or pre-consonantal
position
> > (so "doll" and "dole" are homophones and "gold" and "golf" only
differ in
> > the final consonant) but I still have the distinction if the /l/ is
> > followed by a vowel - "holly" and "holy" are distinct.
>
> How does the merger work? Is <doll>/<dole> closer to [dA.l] or
> [d@Ul], or is it something in between?
>
It's probably similar to your [O] for /o/ before /l/. I'm a bit
confused, though, about my "call"/"coal" distinction. Both vowels seem
to be in the [O] area. I think the "coal" one is shorter and more
rounded, but I think tenseness (whatever that is exactly) might have
something to do with it as well.
As a northerner, I don't have [@U] anyway, with something like a
long rounded mid central vowel - [o":] - in words like "road". Also
a lot of near-RP speakers (and certainly Estuary speakers, though they
wouldn't have an [l] there) usually have a back diphthong rather than
[@U] in words like "dole", I think.
Jonathan
sage
Sorry I disturbed you.
Cheers, Sage
Jim Heckman
On 2-Sep-2003, "Jonathan Jordan" <jonatha...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote
in message <bj27cp$efhnr$1...@ID-162222.news.uni-berlin.de>:
> "Jim Heckman" <wnzrfe...@lnubb.pbz.invalid> wrote in message
> news:vl8tg5j...@corp.supernews.com...
[...]
> > After my tense vowels with high off-glides /i e u/ ~ [ij, ej,
> > uw], my syllable-final /l/, which is normally 'dark'/velarized,
> > tends itself to syllabify, so words like <peal>, <pale> and
> > <pool> are almost bi-syllabic in my native dialect of
> > Bakersfield, CA. (This tendency is somewhat reduced in my
> > current speech, influenced by exposure to General American.)
>
> Some similarity here, in that my /i/ and /e/ (and also /aI/ and /OI/)
> develop something like a schwa inglide - "feel fail file foil" comes out
> like [fi@l fe@l faI@l fOI@l] - but I still perceive them as one syllable.
Oh, yeah. I forgot my diphthongs. Add /Aj Oj &w/ to /i e u/
above.
> My /ul/ doesn't do anything like this, though. It seems to be something
> like [U:l], whereas the usual allophones of /u/ before other consonants
> seem to be close to [u":] (long barred u). I've heard other northern
> English accents (north-west, I think, e.g. Liverpool and Manchester) with
> a strongly fronted /u/ even before /l/.
What then is the difference between your <pool> and <pull>?
Merely length, [pU:l] vs. [pUl]?
[...]
> Of course in traditional northern English accents the opposition you're
> calling /@/~/U/ never developed. I do have it, but with a rounded vowel
> in "putt", "pulp", "cut" etc. The distinction seems to be as strong
> before /l/ as anywhere else.
I call it /@/ because even stressed it's definitely closer to
shwa than turned-v for me, despite what dictionaries, including
American ones, often say. I suppose it's actually a *little*
lower and back than shwa, maybe a backed reversed-epsilon.
You say yours is rounded, but where is it in height and
front/back-ness?
[...]
> This reminds me of a question I meant to ask about a similar issue: in
> these American dialects that merge /I/ and /E/ before nasals, do they
> also do this if the nasal is followed by another vowel?
Mine does. At least, it has <penny> ~ ['pIni]. Here, I 'feel'
the /n/ as belonging to the first syllable.
[...]
--
Jim Heckman
Jonathan Jordan
>
> On 2-Sep-2003, "Jonathan Jordan" <jonatha...@sheffield.ac.uk>
wrote
> in message <bj27cp$efhnr$1...@ID-162222.news.uni-berlin.de>:
>
> > "Jim Heckman" <wnzrfe...@lnubb.pbz.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:vl8tg5j...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> [...]
>
> > > After my tense vowels with high off-glides /i e u/ ~ [ij, ej,
> > > uw], my syllable-final /l/, which is normally 'dark'/velarized,
> > > tends itself to syllabify, so words like <peal>, <pale> and
> > > <pool> are almost bi-syllabic in my native dialect of
> > > Bakersfield, CA. (This tendency is somewhat reduced in my
> > > current speech, influenced by exposure to General American.)
> >
> > Some similarity here, in that my /i/ and /e/ (and also /aI/ and /OI/)
> > develop something like a schwa inglide - "feel fail file foil" comes
out
> > like [fi@l fe@l faI@l fOI@l] - but I still perceive them as one
syllable.
>
> Oh, yeah. I forgot my diphthongs. Add /Aj Oj &w/ to /i e u/
> above.
What about after /r/, for example in "curl" or "Carl"? I also seem to
have some diphthongisation in those, and a greater tendency towards
having no [r] sound than I usually do.
> > My /ul/ doesn't do anything like this, though. It seems to be
something
> > like [U:l], whereas the usual allophones of /u/ before other
consonants
> > seem to be close to [u":] (long barred u). I've heard other northern
> > English accents (north-west, I think, e.g. Liverpool and Manchester)
with
> > a strongly fronted /u/ even before /l/.
>
> What then is the difference between your <pool> and <pull>?
> Merely length, [pU:l] vs. [pUl]?
Length seems to be the main difference, yes. I'll remember this as
another example for the next time an American claims that English doesn't
have vowel length distinctions.
> > Of course in traditional northern English accents the opposition
you're
> > calling /@/~/U/ never developed. I do have it, but with a rounded
vowel
> > in "putt", "pulp", "cut" etc. The distinction seems to be as strong
> > before /l/ as anywhere else.
>
> I call it /@/ because even stressed it's definitely closer to
> shwa than turned-v for me, despite what dictionaries, including
> American ones, often say. I suppose it's actually a *little*
> lower and back than shwa, maybe a backed reversed-epsilon.
>
> You say yours is rounded, but where is it in height and
> front/back-ness?
>
As far as I can tell, fairly neutral on both counts, so a sort of rounded
schwa. I'm reluctant to write /@/ because I just don't feel [O"] to be
the same vowel as [@], any more than I consider [a], [E], [A.] or [U] to
be the same as [@]. The weak form of "but" feels different from the
strong form just as those of "that" or "of" do. So I go along with RP
and write /V/, even though it's even more phonetically inappropriate for
me than it is for RP.
(NB I have [A.] in stressed "of", "was", "what".)
Jonathan
Peter Moylan
>Before I lose them, I thought I'd post some of the notes I took when
>visiting our metric neighbor to the north. (Vancouver, to be exact.)
[...]
> - Many of the American chains incorporate a maple leaf into their
> logo. Nobody else seems to bother.
It used to be really easy to pick the American companies in
Australia. They were the ones flying an Australian flag. Somehow
they never figured out that flag-worship was not an Australian
custom.
It's less of an issue these days, now that there are hardly any
Australian-owned companies left.
--
Peter Moylan Peter....@newcastle.edu.au
http://eepjm.newcastle.edu.au (OS/2 and eCS information and software)
Peter Moylan
>Yeah, and it took me a while to figure out what the flashing green
>lights meant. (No, I wasn't driving.)
When you are driving, things like that can be dangerous. You
think you know the rules, and you end up undermined by the
unsuspected assumptions.
On a visit to Queensland a couple of years ago, I found myself in
a region where the main thoroughfare had signs saying "New lower
speed limit 50 km/h". It took several days, during which I
scrupulously respected that rule, before I discovered that it was
in fact an _upper_ speed limit.
When I was taking a license test in California, mumbledy-something
years ago, I stopped at a Stop sign and gave way to all the
other traffic. That's an absolute rule where I learnt to drive.
Eventually the examiner had to tell me to proceed. I had never
before met the concept of a four-way Stop sign.
We used to have a big problem when a NSW driver wanted to turn
left at the same time as an oncoming Victorian driver wanted
to turn right. The differences in right-of-way rules made a
collision almost inevitable. Eventually the lawmakers decided
that adjacent states really ought to have roughly similar road
rules, but it took years for them to reach agreement. (After
that, of course, there was a period of collisions between
young Victorian drivers and older Victorian drivers.)
There used to be exactly six intersections in Melbourne where
you had to turn left in order to make a right turn. (Perhaps
there still are; I haven't checked lately.) Something to do
with giving way to trams. Anyone doing a driver's licence test
anywhere in Victoria had to memorise the locations of those six
intersections, even if they never planned to visit Melbourne.
Out-of-state visitors, on the other hand, had no way of knowing
about this rule. Even the car rental people didn't tell you,
because they assumed that it was something that everyone already
knew.
R F
On Sat, 30 Aug 2003, Jonathan Jordan wrote:
> Whereas I do say [lO:r@] ("caught" vowel) but it still wouldn't rhyme with
> "Cora", which would probably be [ko@r@], though I could also imagine
> [kA.r@]. Compare "oral"/"aural"/"moral" with [o@], [O:] and [A.]
> respectively. I think for many Americans they would all rhyme.
They all rhyme for me, and I have more vowels than most Amairicans.
Spehro Pefhany
pe...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan) wrote:
>Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>>Before I lose them, I thought I'd post some of the notes I took when
>>visiting our metric neighbor to the north. (Vancouver, to be exact.)
>[...]
>
>> - Many of the American chains incorporate a maple leaf into their
>> logo. Nobody else seems to bother.
>
>It used to be really easy to pick the American companies in
>Australia. They were the ones flying an Australian flag. Somehow
>they never figured out that flag-worship was not an Australian
>custom.
>
>It's less of an issue these days, now that there are hardly any
>Australian-owned companies left.
Where's the attraction in seeking a free trade agreement then? I
thought cashing out and abandoning your employees to the tender
mercies of multinationals was the whole point.
Mike Lyle
> Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>
> >Yeah, and it took me a while to figure out what the flashing green
> >lights meant. (No, I wasn't driving.)
>
> When you are driving, things like that can be dangerous. You
> think you know the rules, and you end up undermined by the
> unsuspected assumptions.
>
> We used to have a big problem when a NSW driver wanted to turn
> left at the same time as an oncoming Victorian driver wanted
> to turn right. The differences in right-of-way rules made a
I very much want to believe the tale which used to go the rounds of a
head-on collision between vehicles in the largely featureless desert
between Libya, where you drive on the right, and The Sudan, where you
drive on the left.
Mike.
Frances Kemmish
> I very much want to believe the tale which used to go the rounds of a
> head-on collision between vehicles in the largely featureless desert
> between Libya, where you drive on the right, and The Sudan, where you
> drive on the left.
>
Why not? The Guinness Book of Records reported that the "Most Isolated
Tree" was hit by a truck.
Fran
Michael West
"Peter Moylan" <pe...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> wrote in message
news:slrnbldfo...@eepjm.newcastle.edu.au...
> Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
> >Before I lose them, I thought I'd post some of the notes I took when
> >visiting our metric neighbor to the north. (Vancouver, to be exact.)
> [...]
>
> > - Many of the American chains incorporate a maple leaf into their
> > logo. Nobody else seems to bother.
>
> It used to be really easy to pick the American companies in
> Australia. They were the ones flying an Australian flag. Somehow
> they never figured out that flag-worship was not an Australian
> custom.
Good one. You're right, too.
But what of Dick Smith? He uses the flag and
has "buy Australian" all over his labels. And you
know what? I do.
--
Michael West
Melbourne, Australia
(Expat Yank)
John Hall
Moylan) wrote:
>...Eventually the lawmakers decided
>that adjacent states really ought to have roughly similar road
>rules, but it took years for them to reach agreement. (After
>that, of course, there was a period of collisions between
>young Victorian drivers and older Victorian drivers.)...
Evolution at work, but it's a slow and relentless process.
--
John W Hall <wweexxss...@telus.net>
Cochrane, Alberta, Canada.
"Helping People Prosper in the Information Age"
sage
> > logo. Nobody else seems to bother.
>
The Toronto Blue Jays baseball team has just dropped the Maple Leaf from its
logo. (I'm not sure who owns the team.)
Cheers, Sage
R F
A press release (describing the logo changes) says that "In September of
2000, Rogers Communications Inc. purchased controlling interest of the
franchise with Labatt (Interbrew), one of the club's original owners,
maintaining a stake in the club's ownership." Rogers appears to be a
Canadian media megalopoconglomerate.
A publicly-held company, it has share classes listed on the Toronto Stock
Exchange as well as the NYSE, but Ted Rogers appears to be a controlling
shareholder.
Mike Lyle
> Evan Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
> >Before I lose them, I thought I'd post some of the notes I took when
> >visiting our metric neighbor to the north. (Vancouver, to be exact.)
> [...]
>
> > - Many of the American chains incorporate a maple leaf into their
> > logo. Nobody else seems to bother.
>
> It used to be really easy to pick the American companies in
> Australia. They were the ones flying an Australian flag. Somehow
> they never figured out that flag-worship was not an Australian
> custom.
>
> It's less of an issue these days, now that there are hardly any
> Australian-owned companies left.
In the days when you got to London down the A40, good old Aspro always
flew (I'm sure it was) *two* Australian ensigns. The building itself
was, of course, painted in the Australian national colour: pink.
Further Dominion news: Non-Australians may need to be told exactly
what a brilliant commercial coup that name was. Much more than other
Anglophone peoples, we had a vigorous native tradition of forming
diminutives, nicknames, etc, by sticking a terminal -o onto a word's
first real or perceived syllable. Hence, "aspirin" became "aspro".
Hence the ingenuity of the registered trade-mark. You reel into the
shop, and groaningly beg for aspro: they provide you with Aspro at a
slightly higher price than the pharmacoeia product.
My father never fell for the trick, preferring always, except when
actually on the air, the generic pronunciation "aspr@n".
On overseas American flag-worship and such, my spies inform me that
Bruce Tober, in solidarity with the damn-liberal natives, on hearing
the opening chords of *God Save the Queen* invariably stands to
attention with his right hand over his heart. (Who invented that
repellent sentimental habit, BTW?)
Mike.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On overseas American flag-worship and such, my spies inform me that
> Bruce Tober, in solidarity with the damn-liberal natives, on hearing
> the opening chords of *God Save the Queen* invariably stands to
> attention with his right hand over his heart. (Who invented that
> repellent sentimental habit, BTW?)
I'm not sure, but
Originally, the pledge was said with the right hand in the
so-called "Bellamy Salute," with the right hand resting first
outward from the chest, then the arm extending out from the
body. Once Hitler came to power in Europe, some Americans were
concerned that this position of the arm and hand resembled the
Nazi or Fascist salute. In 1942 Congress also established the
current practice of rendering the pledge with the right hand over
the heart.
http://www.legion.org/our_flag/of_pledgehist_flag.htm
I don't know whether the practice of saluting this way during the
national anthem came at the same time or not. One other little known
(and, like most of the rest, ignored) bit of flag etiquette is that
the "hand over heart" only applies to citizens. "Aliens" are only
expected to "stand at attention". (Strictly speaking, that's for
hoisting, lowering, and passing in review. There doesn't seem to be
an official protocol for the anthem.)
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |If I am ever forced to make a
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |choice between learning and using
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |win32, or leaving the computer
|industry, let me just say it was
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |nice knowing all of you. :-)
(650)857-7572 | Randal Schwartz
Robert Bannister
> There used to be exactly six intersections in Melbourne where
> you had to turn left in order to make a right turn. (Perhaps
> there still are; I haven't checked lately.) Something to do
> with giving way to trams. Anyone doing a driver's licence test
> anywhere in Victoria had to memorise the locations of those six
> intersections, even if they never planned to visit Melbourne.
> Out-of-state visitors, on the other hand, had no way of knowing
> about this rule.
On the contrary, common folk law would have us out-of-staters believe
that you have to get in the left hand land for a right hand turn
*everywhere* in Melbourne. I have actually heard people say this in
country WA.
--
Rob Bannister
Richard
Moylan) wrote:
>There used to be exactly six intersections in Melbourne where
>you had to turn left in order to make a right turn. (Perhaps
>there still are; I haven't checked lately.) Something to do
>with giving way to trams. Anyone doing a driver's licence test
>anywhere in Victoria had to memorise the locations of those six
>intersections, even if they never planned to visit Melbourne.
>Out-of-state visitors, on the other hand, had no way of knowing
>about this rule.
Except for the big signs graphically illustrating the "hook-turn" that
were displayed at each intersection.
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra, Australia
Peter Moylan
>On 4 Sep 2003 04:27:06 GMT, the renowned
>pe...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan) wrote:
>>It's less of an issue these days, now that there are hardly any
>>Australian-owned companies left.
>
>Where's the attraction in seeking a free trade agreement then? I
>thought cashing out and abandoning your employees to the tender
>mercies of multinationals was the whole point.
That's a complex question, with possibly as many answers as there
are people in the country.
Free trade was, as it happens, a contentious issue here towards
the end of the 19th century when the Australian states were
debating whether to become a single nation. In the end the
free-traders won the argument, we got free trade between the
states, but (in time) a strongly protectionist policy vis-a-vis
the rest of the world.
Late in the 20th century the self-styled economic rationalists
came to power, and their goal was what they called "a level
playing field" where the trade barriers came down. (What they
actually got resembled the level bottom of a pit. The
government of the time didn't seem to understand the likely
consequences of a unilateral dropping of trade barriers.)
Their motivation, I think, was to put a downward pressure on
wages by encouraging businesses not to pay their workers too
much more than third-world levels.
A later government came to realise that this was sending a
lot of businesses bankrupt; and, besides, they held the theory
that a better way to control wages was to introduce legislation
aimed at destroying the trade unions. Nevertheless, they
remained in favour of free trade for another reason. While
Australia has a terrible record for success in manufacturing,
it is very good as a primary producer. Following the
formation of the European Common Market, later followed by the
growing strength of the farm lobby in the USA and of the
rice-growers in Japan, Australian food exports were being
killed off by the massive farm subsidies that were put into
place by our major trading partners. This threatened to
wreck the national economy. Thus, the government was keen
to negotiate agreements with the USA, in particular, on the
removal of farm subsidies. (It has even been rumoured that
this was the reason our government agreed, against the obvious
will of the people, to send troops to Iraq.)
A large proportion, perhaps even a majority, of the Australian
population shared this concern until recently, mostly because
of worries about the collapse of the rural economy. Just
recently public opinion is turning around, mostly because
of two demands from the USA:
(a) measures that could lead to a virtual dismantling of
our Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme (a public subsidy
for the cost of many prescription drugs), in order to
given better bargaining leverage to the US drug companies;
(b) the removal of "local content" laws for radio and
(especially) television, which specify at present a
minimum amount of locally-produced programs. Our film
and television companies can compete very well on
quality, but not on quantity -- the population is not
high enough -- so the removal of those quotas would kill
off the industry. It could even kill off the television
networks themselves, depending on the audience's
willingness to tolerate a steady diet of cheap rubbish.
The Australian population holds strong feelings about our
semi-socialised medical system, and would be strongly opposed
to damaging it. A smaller but still significant proportion
of the population has strong feelings about imported crap on
television. (The actors, of course, have even stronger feelings
about it.) Thus, if the US persists in those two claims it
will certainly drive the electorate into strong opposition
against the free trade negotiations.
But, as I said, it's a complex debate. If you asked someone
else you might get a totally different answer.
Peter Moylan
Yes, I noticed those a couple of years ago. I don't think they were
there ten years ago.
Peter Moylan
>
>"Peter Moylan" <pe...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au> wrote in message
>news:slrnbldfo...@eepjm.newcastle.edu.au...
>> It used to be really easy to pick the American companies in
>> Australia. They were the ones flying an Australian flag. Somehow
>> they never figured out that flag-worship was not an Australian
>> custom.
>
>Good one. You're right, too.
>
>But what of Dick Smith? He uses the flag and
>has "buy Australian" all over his labels. And you
>know what? I do.
Dick Smith's move into this area is relatively recent. The flag
there makes sense, because the whole point of his campaign is to
point out to people just how many once-Australian companies have
been gobbled up by the multinationals, and to give improved
exposure to local producers.
I have to say I admire the man. Here is someone who started out
as a parts supplier to electronics hobbyists (at one stage he
advertised himself as The Electronic Dick), managed to grow his
business to the point where he could even buy out Tandy (the
Australian subsidiary of Radio Shack), then moved on to bigger
things. So far, just another success story from a businessman
who made good. At some point, though, he seems to have turned
around and said "Now I've made my pile; how can I spend it for
the best social good?"
I too look for his label in the supermarkets. I know that he
hasn't personally manufactured the whatever-it-is, but I know
that he guarantees that he is buying up and distributing the
products of locally-owned businesses, possibly to the point of
saving them from buyouts. While the government is crowing about
"growth" that is the result primarily of high consumer spending
on imports, he is showing an understanding of one of the
most-ignored basics of economics: that somewhere along the line
there has to be a real product that is being produced and sold.
Michael West
"Robert Bannister" <rob...@it.net.au> wrote in message
news:3F57C69E...@it.net.au...
I believe the number of intersections requiring "hook"
turns is greater than six, but I can't say for sure. What
amazes me is that the system actually works pretty well.
Mark Browne
Kirshenbaum <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> writes
>One other little known
>(and, like most of the rest, ignored) bit of flag etiquette is that
>the "hand over heart" only applies to citizens. "Aliens" are only
>expected to "stand at attention".
This is one alien who knew, and has not ignored it.
--
Mark Browne
If replying by email, please use the "Reply-To" address, as the
"From" address will be rejected
Jim Heckman
On 3-Sep-2003, "Jonathan Jordan" <jonatha...@sheffield.ac.uk> wrote
in message <bj56kq$fh5oh$1...@ID-162222.news.uni-berlin.de>:
> "Jim Heckman" <wnzrfe...@lnubb.pbz.invalid> wrote in message
> news:vlbetq8...@corp.supernews.com...
[...]
> What about after /r/, for example in "curl" or "Carl"? I also seem to
> have some diphthongisation in those, and a greater tendency towards
> having no [r] sound than I usually do.
Thanks for pointing that out, too! Yes, I have the same
(non-syllable-initial /l/) -> (semi-syllabic /l/) thing going on
following post-vocalic /r/ as with my diphthongs and tense high
vowels. Yet another reason to consider my /Vr/ sequences to be
phonological diphthongs.
Interesting that this should trigger a *decrease* in [r] for
you, though; I would have thought the opposite. Of course, I
myself am completely rhotic with /r/ = [(right-tail-)turned-r]
in all positions, and to me it feels like it's precisely that
[r] that 'forces' the syllabification of the /l/, just as with
the high off-glides that in some sense 'interfere' with my going
directly to [l<vel>] within the same syllable.
[...]
> > What then is the difference between your <pool> and <pull>?
> > Merely length, [pU:l] vs. [pUl]?
>
> Length seems to be the main difference, yes. I'll remember this as
> another example for the next time an American claims that English doesn't
> have vowel length distinctions.
Well, this American at least was already aware that phonemic
vowel length does indeed occur in some Northern England accents.
[...]
> > I call it /@/ because even stressed it's definitely closer to
> > shwa than turned-v for me, despite what dictionaries, including
> > American ones, often say. I suppose it's actually a *little*
> > lower and back than shwa, maybe a backed reversed-epsilon.
[...]
> (NB I have [A.] in stressed "of", "was", "what".)
As a good Brit should. I, of course, have /@/ ~ [@] in all of
those.
--
Jim Heckman
sage
Interesting that your comments appear in a thread entitled Notes from
Canada. Your (a) and (b) ring familiarly up here.
Cheers, Sage
Mike Lyle
> Spehro Pefhany <sp...@interlog.com> wrote:
> >On 4 Sep 2003 04:27:06 GMT, the renowned
> >pe...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan) wrote:
>
> >>It's less of an issue these days, now that there are hardly any
> >>Australian-owned companies left.
> >
> >Where's the attraction in seeking a free trade agreement then? I
> >thought cashing out and abandoning your employees to the tender
> >mercies of multinationals was the whole point.
>
> That's a complex question, with possibly as many answers as there
> are people in the country.
>
>
> Late in the 20th century the self-styled economic rationalists
> came to power, and their goal was what they called "a level
> playing field" where the trade barriers came down. (What they
Radio 4 today had a good description of an economic level playing
field: giraffes get to eat.
Mike.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Radio 4 today had a good description of an economic level playing
> field: giraffes get to eat.
From which we may conclude that either giraffes eat noticeably better
than other animals or the relative equality of other animals is due to
other animals' being subsidized by giraffes.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |A little government and a little luck
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |are necessary in life, but only a
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |fool trusts either of them.
| P.J. O'Rourke
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Mike Lyle
> mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk (Mike Lyle) writes:
>
> > Radio 4 today had a good description of an economic level playing
> > field: giraffes get to eat.
>
> From which we may conclude that either giraffes eat noticeably better
> than other animals or the relative equality of other animals is due to
> other animals' being subsidized by giraffes.
I must admit I had independently formed some misgivings about the
analogy: for it to work as intended, I think we have to presuppose a
drought, in which grass is dead, but the deeper root system of a
typical tree has allowed it to carry on producing leaves. This makes
the whole trope rather less than snappy.
But it's probably good times for vultures and those invertebrates
which specialize in eating giraffe-shit.
Mike.
Richard
Moylan) wrote:
>Richard <richardbD...@amt.canberra.edu.au> wrote:
>>On 4 Sep 2003 04:50:13 GMT, pe...@seagoon.newcastle.edu.au (Peter
>>Moylan) wrote:
>>
>>>There used to be exactly six intersections in Melbourne where
>>>you had to turn left in order to make a right turn. (Perhaps
>>>there still are; I haven't checked lately.) Something to do
>>>with giving way to trams. Anyone doing a driver's licence test
>>>anywhere in Victoria had to memorise the locations of those six
>>>intersections, even if they never planned to visit Melbourne.
>>>Out-of-state visitors, on the other hand, had no way of knowing
>>>about this rule.
>>
>>Except for the big signs graphically illustrating the "hook-turn" that
>>were displayed at each intersection.
>
>Yes, I noticed those a couple of years ago. I don't think they were
>there ten years ago.
>
I lived in Melbourne for nearly two years back in the seventies. I saw
them then.
Michael West
"Richard" <richardbD...@amt.canberra.edu.au> wrote in message
news:3f5d221c...@news.canberra.edu.au...
I think if a visitor doesn't already know about the hook-turn
system, he or she is not likely to notice the signs, or to know
what to do unless other drivers are showing the way. Approaching
an intersection in a strange city, and looking for a place to make
a turn when you're not sure where you want to be, you are very
likely to miss the overhead signs, and to attempt to make a
safe cross-traffic turn in the normal way.
I occasionally forget, too -- especially if traffic is light and
there are no other drivers setting an example.
Michael West
"Michael West" <mbw...@removebigpond.net.au> wrote in message news:...
I thought I would translate this for American drivers.
Suppose you want to make a left turn at a major US
intersection. Using the Melbourne "hook turn" system,
you would do the following:
1. Approach and enter the intersection in the far
right-hand lane (not the left-hand lane, as you normally
would for a left turn).
2. In the middle of the intersection, pull over even
farther to the right -- adjacent to (but not in) the
pedestrian crosswalk, and wait there.
3. When the green light turns red, and the flow
of traffic stops, turn sharply left across all lanes
of traffic and proceed on your way.
Frances Kemmish
ANyone who has driven in New Jersey would be quite familiar with the
"hook-turn" even if it isn't called that. I don't know if New Jersey
drivers have a special term, but in Connecticut we call it a "New Jersey
turn".
Fran
Tony Cooper
<fkem...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>ANyone who has driven in New Jersey would be quite familiar with the
>"hook-turn" even if it isn't called that. I don't know if New Jersey
>drivers have a special term, but in Connecticut we call it a "New Jersey
>turn".
Farmer's turn, in Indiana. Comes from driving tractors that pull
things like disc plows. Spooky as hell when you are going, say,
north-bound on a road where some guy in the south-bound lane is making
a farmer's turn. You think the guy's going to turn west, and then he
hooks into the east-bound lane.
If you have good eyesight, and see a guy coming at you that has a
wrinkled turkey neck, his blue chambray shirt buttoned at the collar,
and a baseball-type cap with either "John Deere" or "Funke's Hybrid
Corn" emblazoned on it, you can anticipate the turn.
Mark Browne
Michael West <mbw...@removebigpond.net.au> writes
>I thought I would translate this for American drivers.
>Suppose you want to make a left turn at a major US
>intersection. Using the Melbourne "hook turn" system,
>you would do the following:
>
>1. Approach and enter the intersection in the far
>right-hand lane (not the left-hand lane, as you normally
>would for a left turn).
>
>2. In the middle of the intersection, pull over even
>farther to the right -- adjacent to (but not in) the
>pedestrian crosswalk, and wait there.
>
>3. When the green light turns red, and the flow
>of traffic stops, turn sharply left across all lanes
>of traffic and proceed on your way.
Why is this better than a normal left turn?