I've just realized...
Avram Grumer
--
Avram Grumer | av...@grumer.org | http://www.PigsAndFishes.org
Vs lbh pna ernq guvf, lbh'er va ivbyngvba bs gur Qvtvgny Zvyyraavhz
Pbclevtug Npg.
Eloise Beltz-Decker
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:52:54 -0400,
> Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org> scripsit:
> > ...that Santa Claus is Mister A.
>
> Pardon me, Avram, but what the pluperfect holy helya are you talking
> about?
Yeah, no kidding, definitely a [*] moment. :->
--
Eloise Beltz-Decker + elo...@ripco.com + http://www.ripco.com/~eloise
Vespasian's banquets were extremely old-fashioned:
the waitresses kept their clothes on and he never poisoned the food.
- Lindsey Davis, _Silver_Pigs_
Avram Grumer
Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:52:54 -0400,
> Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org> scripsit:
> > ...that Santa Claus is Mister A.
>
> Pardon me, Avram, but what the pluperfect holy helya are you talking
> about?
Mr. A was a comic character created by writer/artist Steve Ditko.
Imagine the sort of comic Jack Chick might create if he were an
Objectivist. He had special half-black/half-white business cards that
would turn all-black or all-white depending on whether the holder was
naughty or nice.
Kip Williams
>
> In article <slrn9t78f4....@hunding.localdomain>,
> Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:52:54 -0400,
> > Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org> scripsit:
> > > ...that Santa Claus is Mister A.
> >
> > Pardon me, Avram, but what the pluperfect holy helya are you talking
> > about?
>
> Mr. A was a comic character created by writer/artist Steve Ditko.
> Imagine the sort of comic Jack Chick might create if he were an
> Objectivist. He had special half-black/half-white business cards that
> would turn all-black or all-white depending on whether the holder was
> naughty or nice.
Sounds like a back-to-fundamentals kind of guy. I have to wonder,
then, why all those radical students seemed to be carrying signs
that said "Death to the Great Santa."
--
--Kip (Williams) ...at http://members.home.net/kipw/
Darn these glasses.
Loren Joseph MacGregor
>On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:52:54 -0400,
>Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org> scripsit:
>Pardon me, Avram, but what the pluperfect holy helya are you talking
>about?
Well, since Ditko is the reincarnation of Ayn Rand minus the
liberal philosophy, this makes perfect sense.
-- LJM
--
+-----------------------+
| Loren J MacGregor |
| The Churn Works |
| System Administration |
|Technical Documentation|
| lmac...@efn.org |
+-----------------------+
Arthur D. Hlavaty
wrote:
>In article <slrn9t78f4....@hunding.localdomain>,
> Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:52:54 -0400,
>> Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org> scripsit:
>> > ...that Santa Claus is Mister A.
>>
>> Pardon me, Avram, but what the pluperfect holy helya are you talking
>> about?
>
>Mr. A was a comic character created by writer/artist Steve Ditko.
>Imagine the sort of comic Jack Chick might create if he were an
>Objectivist. He had special half-black/half-white business cards that
>would turn all-black or all-white depending on whether the holder was
>naughty or nice.
"Santa Claus Is Coming to Town" is an awesomely totalitarian song.
I've heard it sung as "Torquemada's Coming to Town."
--
Arthur D.Hlavaty hla...@panix.com
Church of the SuperGenius in Wile E. we trust
E-zine available on request
Lucy Kemnitzer
wrote:
>In article <slrn9t78f4....@hunding.localdomain>,
> Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:52:54 -0400,
>> Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org> scripsit:
>> > ...that Santa Claus is Mister A.
>>
>> Pardon me, Avram, but what the pluperfect holy helya are you talking
>> about?
>
>Mr. A was a comic character created by writer/artist Steve Ditko.
>Imagine the sort of comic Jack Chick might create if he were an
>Objectivist. He had special half-black/half-white business cards that
>would turn all-black or all-white depending on whether the holder was
>naughty or nice.
It was strange beyond strange, and more than a little creepy. Mr. A
would go around saying "A is A!" as if that would explain things. If
I remember right, he destroyed people who got the black cards.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Lucy Kemnitzer
<hla...@panix.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Oct 2001 01:14:24 -0400, Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org>
>wrote:
>
>>In article <slrn9t78f4....@hunding.localdomain>,
>> Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:52:54 -0400,
>>> Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org> scripsit:
>>> > ...that Santa Claus is Mister A.
>>>
>>> Pardon me, Avram, but what the pluperfect holy helya are you talking
>>> about?
>>
>>Mr. A was a comic character created by writer/artist Steve Ditko.
>>Imagine the sort of comic Jack Chick might create if he were an
>>Objectivist. He had special half-black/half-white business cards that
>>would turn all-black or all-white depending on whether the holder was
>>naughty or nice.
>
>"Santa Claus Is Coming to Town" is an awesomely totalitarian song.
>I've heard it sung as "Torquemada's Coming to Town."
I've always hated that song. It gives me the creeps, and not just
because of the surveillance aspects (which were a live issue, and
quite threatening, for me as a child in the McCarthy era: I had my
instructions for what to say when the FBI came to the door or called
on the phone, and they did). The very thought of judging small
children as good or bad and then dealing out a fate to them made me
ill even then: now it rouses my fury.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Kate Schaefer
news:avram-C1B6EA....@news1.panix.com...
> In article <slrn9t78f4....@hunding.localdomain>,
> Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:52:54 -0400,
> > Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org> scripsit:
> > > ...that Santa Claus is Mister A.
> >
> > Pardon me, Avram, but what the pluperfect holy helya are you talking
> > about?
>
> Mr. A was a comic character created by writer/artist Steve Ditko.
> Imagine the sort of comic Jack Chick might create if he were an
> Objectivist. He had special half-black/half-white business cards that
> would turn all-black or all-white depending on whether the holder was
> naughty or nice.
Wow. Gosh. Suddenly I'm smoking Balkan Sobranies and drinking that Irish
whisky I used to drink back when I read those, in 1974 or '75 (I don't
know when they came out, but that's when I read them). I thought it was
totally awesome that Ditko could draw such enlightened political comics
and get them published.
I still think it's amazing that they were published, but I don't smoke,
drink beer or Scotch when I do drink, and have long since ceased to be an
Objectivist.
Pete McCutchen
wrote:
>It was strange beyond strange, and more than a little creepy. Mr. A
>would go around saying "A is A!" as if that would explain things.
That's so funny. I really wish I'd seen this comic.
A is A!
--
Pete McCutchen
Mark Atwood
> instructions for what to say when the FBI came to the door or called
> on the phone, and they did). The very thought of judging small
> children as good or bad and then dealing out a fate to them made me
> ill even then: now it rouses my fury.
Of course. We all know that making moral judgements is bad in every way.
--
Mark Atwood | I'm wearing black only until I find something darker.
m...@pobox.com | http://www.pobox.com/~mra
Martin Wisse
>...that Santa Claus is Mister A.
Rewards the righteous, punishes the evildoers and without mercy for
them...
Makes sense.
Martin Wisse
--
"Desaad: Master, I have found it! Doom plus Magic plus IRC plus netnews
plus MUDding!"
"Darkseid: You cringing fool! That is *not* the Anti-Life Formula, it is
the No-Life Formula!"--Dave Van Domelen
Martin Wisse
Umm Pete, guess where Ditko got his philosophy from?
Initials are A. R.
aRJay
<av...@grumer.org> writes
>In article <slrn9t78f4....@hunding.localdomain>,
> Graydon Saunders <gra...@dsl.ca> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:52:54 -0400,
>> Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org> scripsit:
>> > ...that Santa Claus is Mister A.
>>
>> Pardon me, Avram, but what the pluperfect holy helya are you talking
>> about?
>
>Mr. A was a comic character created by writer/artist Steve Ditko.
>Imagine the sort of comic Jack Chick might create if he were an
>Objectivist. He had special half-black/half-white business cards that
>would turn all-black or all-white depending on whether the holder was
>naughty or nice.
>
--
aRJay
"In this great and creatorless universe, where so much beautiful has
come to be out of the chance interactions of the basic properties of
matter, it seems so important that we love one another,"
- Lucy Kemnitzer
Kip Williams
The Mexican import movie, _Santa Claus_, gives us that Big Brother
version of Santa.
Incidentally, the tune to "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" was
originally an unsuccessful song called "Andersonville." I just can't
picture it, myself. I can't remember if I learned about that when I
was holding down a small part in "The Andersonville Trial" or not,
but I may have. Wotta quinky dink.
--
--Kip (Williams) ...at http://members.home.net/kipw/
"Not that there's anything wrong with that." --Seinfeld
Kip Williams
Yeah, and he said it in three words... that's about 160 pages less
than it took Ion Ranned to say the same thing.
Kip Williams
>
> On Sun, 21 Oct 2001 23:52:54 -0400, Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org>
> wrote:
>
> >...that Santa Claus is Mister A.
>
> Rewards the righteous, punishes the evildoers and without mercy for
> them...
>
> Makes sense.
In my universe, he mostly rewards kids whose parents have some
money.
Vicki Rosenzweig
>rit...@cruzio.com (Lucy Kemnitzer) writes:
>> instructions for what to say when the FBI came to the door or called
>> on the phone, and they did). The very thought of judging small
>> children as good or bad and then dealing out a fate to them made me
>> ill even then: now it rouses my fury.
>
>Of course. We all know that making moral judgements is bad in every way.
Give it a break, Mark.
There's a real difference between saying "what you did is wrong" and
"you are evil," especially when the person addressed is a small child.
--
Vicki Rosenzweig | v...@redbird.org
r.a.sf.f faq at http://www.redbird.org/rassef-faq.html
Mark Atwood
> Quoth Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> on 22 Oct 2001 11:16:59 -0700:
> >rit...@cruzio.com (Lucy Kemnitzer) writes:
> >> instructions for what to say when the FBI came to the door or called
> >> on the phone, and they did). The very thought of judging small
> >> children as good or bad and then dealing out a fate to them made me
> >> ill even then: now it rouses my fury.
> >
> >Of course. We all know that making moral judgements is bad in every way.
>
> "you are evil," especially when the person addressed is a small child.
You were the one who jumped "making moral judgements" to "you are evil",
not I. There is a middle ground. You, and too many others, to avoid
the extreme edge, have rejected the middle, at too high a cost.
When I say "moral judgements" I mean things like
"You broke it, I'm not going to replace it.",
"You broke your word, why should I trust you next time?",
"You lied to me, why should I believe you again?", and
"You didnt do the promised work, why should you get the promised reward?".
*Those* sort of moral judgements.
The next layer of moral judgement takes things like the ones I listed
above, and use them to start making a predictive model of a person.
Based on past performance and reliable reporting, how careful are they?
How trustworthy? How honest? How diligent?
It may not be the kid's *fault* that they dont past muster against
those sort of moral judgements, but that's completely beside the
point.
Captain Countess Cordilia Naismith Vorkosigan may be able to trust
beyond reason, despite past history, but she has the luxury of
Authoritative backing. The rest of us have to live in the iterated
prisoners dilemma that is life, and the only non-losing stratagy at
that sort of game is "trust and verify" and "cooperated until til
betrayed, then tit for tat".
Avram Grumer
Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> wrote:
> Vicki Rosenzweig <v...@redbird.org> writes:
> > Quoth Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> on 22 Oct 2001 11:16:59 -0700:
> > >rit...@cruzio.com (Lucy Kemnitzer) writes:
> > >> instructions for what to say when the FBI came to the door or
> > >> called on the phone, and they did). The very thought of judging
> > >> small children as good or bad and then dealing out a fate to
> > >> them made me ill even then: now it rouses my fury.
> > >
> > >Of course. We all know that making moral judgements is bad in
> > >every way.
> >
> > There's a real difference between saying "what you did is wrong"
> > and "you are evil," especially when the person addressed is a small
> > child.
>
> You were the one who jumped "making moral judgements" to "you are
> evil", not I. There is a middle ground. You, and too many others, to
> avoid the extreme edge, have rejected the middle, at too high a cost.
Actually, Mark, you're the one who jumped from "judging small children
as good or bad and then dealing out a fate to them" to "making moral
judgments."
> When I say "moral judgements" I mean things like
> "You broke it, I'm not going to replace it.",
> "You broke your word, why should I trust you next time?",
> "You lied to me, why should I believe you again?", and
> "You didnt do the promised work, why should you get the promised
> reward?".
>
> *Those* sort of moral judgements.
So, given that you had options that included:
- Asking Lucy how she deals with the misbehavior of children, and
what distinguishes her approach from "judging small children as
good or bad and then dealing out a fate."
- Making a sarcastic one-line comment that exaggerates what she
said so that you can preen about how much more hard-headedly
rational you are than she is.
...what moral judgments should we make about you considering which one
you chose?
Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr
>Vicki Rosenzweig <v...@redbird.org> writes:
>> Quoth Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> on 22 Oct 2001 11:16:59 -0700:
>> >rit...@cruzio.com (Lucy Kemnitzer) writes:
>> >> instructions for what to say when the FBI came to the door or called
>> >> on the phone, and they did). The very thought of judging small
>> >> children as good or bad and then dealing out a fate to them made me
>> >> ill even then: now it rouses my fury.
>> >
>> >Of course. We all know that making moral judgements is bad in every way.
>>
>> "you are evil," especially when the person addressed is a small child.
>
>not I. There is a middle ground. You, and too many others, to avoid
>the extreme edge, have rejected the middle, at too high a cost.
>
> "You broke it, I'm not going to replace it.",
> "You broke your word, why should I trust you next time?",
> "You lied to me, why should I believe you again?", and
> "You didnt do the promised work, why should you get the promised reward?".
>
>*Those* sort of moral judgements.
>
>above, and use them to start making a predictive model of a person.
>Based on past performance and reliable reporting, how careful are they?
>How trustworthy? How honest? How diligent?
>
>It may not be the kid's *fault* that they dont past muster against
>those sort of moral judgements, but that's completely beside the
>point.
>
>
>Captain Countess Cordilia Naismith Vorkosigan may be able to trust
>beyond reason, despite past history, but she has the luxury of
>Authoritative backing. The rest of us have to live in the iterated
>prisoners dilemma that is life, and the only non-losing stratagy at
>that sort of game is "trust and verify" and "cooperated until til
>betrayed, then tit for tat".
>
All fine, but the context here was Santa Claus knowing whether you're bad
or good, and knowing it in the same magical way he knows whether you're
sleeping or awake. And does pouting make you untrustworthy?
-- Alan
===============================================================================
Alan Winston --- WIN...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU
Disclaimer: I speak only for myself, not SLAC or SSRL Phone: 650/926-3056
Physical mail to: SSRL -- SLAC BIN 69, PO BOX 4349, STANFORD, CA 94309-0210
===============================================================================
Lucy Kemnitzer
Aiee.
Remember, I was talking about how "Santa Claus is Coming to Town"
creeps me out. I was talking about "you better watch out" directed at
small children. You seem to be talking about a justification for
hard-line relationships among adults, which, whether I agree with you
or not, is something entirely different from threatening small
children with retribution from the big folkloric symbol of generosity
and the putative source of kid prosperity.
Another time, perhaps, I could address what's bothering you, but right
now I just want to be clear about what I was reacting to.
And another thing: "he knows if you've been bad or good, so be good
for goodness sake," is of course, a logical inconsistency: to be good
for goodness sake is to be good without regard to consequences, not to
be good for fear of coal in the stocking.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Doug Wickstrom
<3bd42641...@cnews.newsguy.com>
rit...@cruzio.com (Lucy Kemnitzer) excited the ether to say:
>I've always hated that song. It gives me the creeps, and not just
>because of the surveillance aspects (which were a live issue, and
>quite threatening, for me as a child in the McCarthy era: I had my
>instructions for what to say when the FBI came to the door or called
>on the phone, and they did). The very thought of judging small
>children as good or bad and then dealing out a fate to them made me
>ill even then: now it rouses my fury.
So what's wrong with being good for the sake of goodness?
--
Doug Wickstrom
"[R]ooting for truffles with our fangs in the air...." Julie Stampnitzky
David Dyer-Bennet
> Captain Countess Cordilia Naismith Vorkosigan may be able to trust
> beyond reason, despite past history, but she has the luxury of
> Authoritative backing. The rest of us have to live in the iterated
> prisoners dilemma that is life, and the only non-losing stratagy at
> that sort of game is "trust and verify" and "cooperated until til
> betrayed, then tit for tat".
I'm glad you brought that up. I'll point out that she was doing that
trusting beyond reason starting at least as far back as when she was
shipwrecked and confronted with a top-flight enemy soldier; hardly a
situation where she had the big power behind her. The more I think
about the cases, the more it seems to me you're trying to minimize the
risks she ran much MUCH more than the text really supports.
Of course, she's still a fictional character, not terribly heavy
artillery to bring into this argument.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net / Ghugle: the Fannish Ghod of Queries
Book log: http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/Ouroboros/booknotes/
Photos: http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/
Mark Atwood
> In article <m34rorx...@khem.blackfedora.com>, Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> writes:
> > The rest of us have to live in the iterated prisoners dilemma that
> > is life, and the only non-losing stratagy at that sort of game is
> > "trust and verify" and "cooperated until til betrayed, then tit
> > for tat".
>
> All fine, but the context here was Santa Claus knowing whether you're bad
> or good, and knowing it in the same magical way he knows whether you're
> sleeping or awake.
Originally. But topic drift has a long and honorable history, and
it had drifted (quickly) to:
> rit...@cruzio.com (Lucy Kemnitzer) writes:
> > The very thought of judging small children as good or bad and then
> > dealing out a fate to them made me ill even then: now it rouses my
> > fury.
Which seems rather absolute and Santa-free.
> And does pouting make you untrustworthy?
It makes one bear closer scrutiny.
Ray Radlein
>
> Martin Wisse wrote:
> >
> > Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org> wrote:
> >
> > >...that Santa Claus is Mister A.
> >
> > Rewards the righteous, punishes the evildoers and without mercy
> > for them...
> >
> > Makes sense.
>
> In my universe, he mostly rewards kids whose parents have some
> money.
Oh, gosh, Kip. You say that like there was a difference.
- Ray R.
--
*********************************************************************
"Well, before my sword can pass all the way through your neck, it has
to pass *half way* through your neck. But before it can do *that*, it
has to first pass *one-fourth* of the way through your neck. And
before it can do *that*...." - Zeno, Warrior Princess
Ray Radlein - r...@learnlink.emory.edu
homepage coming soon! wooo, wooo.
*********************************************************************
Mark Atwood
> On 22 Oct 2001 20:15:07 -0700, Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> wrote:
> >
> >When I say "moral judgements" I mean things like
> > "You broke it, I'm not going to replace it.",
> > "You broke your word, why should I trust you next time?",
> > "You lied to me, why should I believe you again?", and
> > "You didnt do the promised work, why should you get the promised reward?".
>
>
> Remember, I was talking about how "Santa Claus is Coming to Town"
> creeps me out. I was talking about "you better watch out" directed at
> small children.
I suspect that the lyric was written before "you better watch out"
gained it's idiomatic meaning similar to "Nice place you got here.
Pity if something was to happen to it.".
> You seem to be talking about a justification for hard-line
> relationships among adults, which, whether I agree with you or not,
> is something entirely different from threatening small children with
> retribution from the big folkloric symbol of generosity and the
> putative source of kid prosperity.
Not being given an unearned present is "retribution"?
> Another time, perhaps, I could address what's bothering you,
You're suddenly a `net therapist?
Lots of things bother me. Basic moral behavior and judgement of same
isn't one of them.
> but right now I just want to be clear about what I was reacting to.
I then perhaps did not see the implied limiters and conditionals
in your statement. What I read was you starting with the Santa Claus
song, and then generalizing it to a condemnation of moral judgement
of children in general.
I misread you, I apologize.
> And another thing: "he knows if you've been bad or good, so be good
> for goodness sake," is of course, a logical inconsistency: to be good
> for goodness sake is to be good without regard to consequences, not to
> be good for fear of coal in the stocking.
I always heard it as an interjective amplifier, similar to how "for
goodness' sake!" is used as an exclamation. But yes, the literal
reading is contradictory. But hey, it's a hymn to Santa Claus, a god
who's myths and rites make even less sense than normal.
Mark Atwood
> Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> writes:
>
> > Captain Countess Cordilia Naismith Vorkosigan may be able to trust
> > beyond reason, despite past history, but she has the luxury of
> > Authoritative backing.
>
> I'm glad you brought that up. I'll point out that she was doing that
> trusting beyond reason starting at least as far back as when she was
> shipwrecked and confronted with a top-flight enemy soldier; hardly a
> situation where she had the big power behind her.
By "*Author*itative backing", I meant that she had LMB on her side,
not that she ended up with House Vorkosigan and House Vorbarra on her side.
> The more I think about the cases, the more it seems to me you're
> trying to minimize the risks she ran much MUCH more than the text
> really supports.
Depends on whether you have the Watsonian vs Doylest viewpoint.
> Of course, she's still a fictional character, not terribly heavy
> artillery to bring into this argument.
Which is why I used her as a cardboard counter-example, instead
of a support to my stance.
Bob Webber
> David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> writes:
>> Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> writes:
>>
>> > Captain Countess Cordilia Naismith Vorkosigan may be able to trust
>> > beyond reason, despite past history, but she has the luxury of
>> > Authoritative backing.
> ...
>>
>> I'm glad you brought that up. I'll point out that she was doing that
>> trusting beyond reason starting at least as far back as when she was
>> shipwrecked and confronted with a top-flight enemy soldier; hardly a
>> situation where she had the big power behind her.
> By "*Author*itative backing", I meant that she had LMB on her side,
> not that she ended up with House Vorkosigan and House Vorbarra on her side.
I got it, at least. It's a problem with letting writing cleverly and
amusingly be more important than writing clearly -- which may not be
your problems, but is what this reminds me of. Patrick will not,
I hope, recall the writing workshop where I read the words,
"He clutched his guts as they threw themselves into reverse," aloud.
I only mention them here as bona fides for my direct experience
with such a problem.
I've been trying to reform ever since then (ca. 1975?), with a
varying degree of success.
--
They say that Heaven is like TV: a perfect little world that doesn't
really need you.
-- Laurie Anderson
Mark Atwood
> Patrick will not, I hope, recall the writing workshop where I read
> the words, "He clutched his guts as they threw themselves into
> reverse," aloud.
My cat now hates you, for causing me to burst into laughter so soon
after she had settled into a sleep in my lap.
What a *great* line! What a great double meaning. I can even easily
imagine a scenario where they are both true at the same time...
Lucy Kemnitzer
>win...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr") writes:
>> In article <m34rorx...@khem.blackfedora.com>, Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> writes:
>> > The rest of us have to live in the iterated prisoners dilemma that
>> > is life, and the only non-losing stratagy at that sort of game is
>> > "trust and verify" and "cooperated until til betrayed, then tit
>> > for tat".
>>
>> All fine, but the context here was Santa Claus knowing whether you're bad
>> or good, and knowing it in the same magical way he knows whether you're
>> sleeping or awake.
>
>Originally. But topic drift has a long and honorable history, and
>it had drifted (quickly) to:
>
>> rit...@cruzio.com (Lucy Kemnitzer) writes:
>> > The very thought of judging small children as good or bad and then
>> > dealing out a fate to them made me ill even then: now it rouses my
>> > fury.
>
>Which seems rather absolute and Santa-free.
And at what point did I signal a topic change? Fluent readers are
alert to this sort of thing.
Know what I think? I think you _don't_ read, when it comes to my
posts" upi skim for keywords and phrases to trigger your automatic
responses.
>
>> And does pouting make you untrustworthy?
>
>It makes one bear closer scrutiny.
>
Aiee. We are still talking about small children here.
It's annoying when small children pout: it's not a moral issue.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Lucy Kemnitzer
<nims...@uswest.net> wrote:
>On Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:01:40 GMT, in message
><3bd42641...@cnews.newsguy.com>
> rit...@cruzio.com (Lucy Kemnitzer) excited the ether to say:
>
>>I've always hated that song. It gives me the creeps, and not just
>>because of the surveillance aspects (which were a live issue, and
>>quite threatening, for me as a child in the McCarthy era: I had my
>>instructions for what to say when the FBI came to the door or called
>>on the phone, and they did). The very thought of judging small
>>children as good or bad and then dealing out a fate to them made me
>>ill even then: now it rouses my fury.
>
>So what's wrong with being good for the sake of goodness?
>
As I said in another post, the song does not actually end up telling
children that's what they should be doing, though it's in the
chorus:it tells them to be good so they don't incur the wrath of
Santa.
Being good for the sake of goodness is something I actually do teach,
right, and you don;'t do it by bribe and threat, you do it by
appealing to reason and feeling.
There was a Santa song I liked, though: "Up on the Housetop." It was
full of adventure and good cheer, the idea that it would e cool to
ride around in that sleigh giving things to people and being up there
on top of things.
"Santa Claus is Coming to Town" seems like a celebration of a dystopic
abuse of power: "Up on the Housetop" is simple, pure fun, imbued with
a sense of wonder and generosity.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Kip Williams
>
> Bob Webber <web...@panix.com> writes:
> > Patrick will not, I hope, recall the writing workshop where I read
> > the words, "He clutched his guts as they threw themselves into
> > reverse," aloud.
>
> My cat now hates you, for causing me to burst into laughter so soon
> after she had settled into a sleep in my lap.
>
> What a *great* line! What a great double meaning. I can even easily
> imagine a scenario where they are both true at the same time...
You can throw your guts into reverse more smoothly if you learn to
double-clutch. Just a handy hint for writers...
Kip Williams
>
> Kip Williams wrote:
> >
> > Martin Wisse wrote:
> > >
> > > Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > >...that Santa Claus is Mister A.
> > >
> > > Rewards the righteous, punishes the evildoers and without mercy
> > > for them...
> > >
> > > Makes sense.
> >
> > In my universe, he mostly rewards kids whose parents have some
> > money.
>
> Oh, gosh, Kip. You say that like there was a difference.
I can still visualize a drawing I did of a somewhat deaf Ditko hero
called "Mr. Eh?"...
Lucy Kemnitzer
>Ray Radlein wrote:
>>
>> Kip Williams wrote:
>> >
>> > Martin Wisse wrote:
>> > >
>> > > Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >...that Santa Claus is Mister A.
>> > >
>> > > Rewards the righteous, punishes the evildoers and without mercy
>> > > for them...
>> > >
>> > > Makes sense.
>> >
>> > In my universe, he mostly rewards kids whose parents have some
>> > money.
>>
>> Oh, gosh, Kip. You say that like there was a difference.
>
>I can still visualize a drawing I did of a somewhat deaf Ditko hero
>called "Mr. Eh?"...
>
I want to see the adventures of that one.
Hell, I _live_ the adventures of that one, sometimes. "All right, I'm
hearing a radio somewhere over there. I hear it again, and everybody
over there gets a detention, get that? I'm not gonna bother tracking
it down. This is the library!"
I actually did say that yesterday, during Homework Club. Never heard
the radio again.
Still didn't get that one kid to do anything substantial, though.
Lucy Kemnitzer
David Dyer-Bennet
> On Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:01:40 GMT, in message
> <3bd42641...@cnews.newsguy.com>
> rit...@cruzio.com (Lucy Kemnitzer) excited the ether to say:
>
> >I've always hated that song. It gives me the creeps, and not just
> >because of the surveillance aspects (which were a live issue, and
> >quite threatening, for me as a child in the McCarthy era: I had my
> >instructions for what to say when the FBI came to the door or called
> >on the phone, and they did). The very thought of judging small
> >children as good or bad and then dealing out a fate to them made me
> >ill even then: now it rouses my fury.
>
> So what's wrong with being good for the sake of goodness?
What's "good", and why is it good? I prefer rules based on observable
real-world outcomes.
Besides, that whole song is about *threats*, so throwing the "for
goodness sake" in there is just confusing, and likely to be understood
as a lie.
(Following Lucy, I'm thinking of how this song is likely to be
understood by younger children.)
Avram Grumer
Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> wrote:
> win...@SSRL.SLAC.STANFORD.EDU ("Alan Winston - SSRL Admin Cmptg Mgr")
> writes:
> > In article <m34rorx...@khem.blackfedora.com>, Mark Atwood
> > <m...@pobox.com> writes:
> > > The rest of us have to live in the iterated prisoners dilemma
> > > that is life, and the only non-losing stratagy at that sort of
> > > game is "trust and verify" and "cooperated until til betrayed,
> > > then tit for tat".
> >
> > All fine, but the context here was Santa Claus knowing whether
> > you're bad or good, and knowing it in the same magical way he knows
> > whether you're sleeping or awake.
>
> Originally. But topic drift has a long and honorable history, and
> it had drifted (quickly) to:
>
> > rit...@cruzio.com (Lucy Kemnitzer) writes:
> > > The very thought of judging small children as good or bad and then
> > > dealing out a fate to them made me ill even then: now it rouses my
> > > fury.
>
> Which seems rather absolute and Santa-free.
Not in context, it doesn't:
Message-ID: <3bd42641...@cnews.newsguy.com>
: On Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:22:17 -0400, Arthur D. Hlavaty
: <hla...@panix.com> wrote:
:
: >"Santa Claus Is Coming to Town" is an awesomely totalitarian song.
: >I've heard it sung as "Torquemada's Coming to Town."
:
: I've always hated that song. It gives me the creeps, and not just
: because of the surveillance aspects (which were a live issue, and
: quite threatening, for me as a child in the McCarthy era: I had my
: instructions for what to say when the FBI came to the door or called
: on the phone, and they did). The very thought of judging small
: children as good or bad and then dealing out a fate to them made me
: ill even then: now it rouses my fury.
--
Avram Grumer
Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> wrote:
> rit...@cruzio.com (Lucy Kemnitzer) writes:
> > On 22 Oct 2001 20:15:07 -0700, Mark Atwood <m...@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> > And another thing: "he knows if you've been bad or good, so be good
> > for goodness sake," is of course, a logical inconsistency: to be
> > good for goodness sake is to be good without regard to
> > consequences, not to be good for fear of coal in the stocking.
>
> I always heard it as an interjective amplifier, similar to how "for
> goodness' sake!" is used as an exclamation.
That's how I've always interpreted it.
> But yes, the literal reading is contradictory. But hey, it's a hymn
> to Santa Claus, a god who's myths and rites make even less sense than
> normal.
Dude, Sana Claus is the god of capitalism! His holiday is Cashmas, the
day when we make monetary sacrifices to reinvigorate the greater god,
the economy. Why do you think Saint Nicholas is the patron saint of New
York, the financial capitol of the world?
The bit about presents is a symbolic retelling of the story of the
rewards of capitalism: "Good children" (i.e. hard workers,
entrepreneurs, depending on which version of the myth you subscribe to)
are rewarded by an unseen agent (Smith's Invisible Hand), while those
who are "naughty" (lazy, stupid, whatever) receive naught but lumps of
coal.
The eight tiny reindeer represent Covey's seven habits, plus one for
Elijah.
Bob Webber
> Bob Webber <web...@panix.com> writes:
>> Patrick will not, I hope, recall the writing workshop where I read
>> the words, "He clutched his guts as they threw themselves into
>> reverse," aloud.
> My cat now hates you, for causing me to burst into laughter so soon
> after she had settled into a sleep in my lap.
> What a *great* line! What a great double meaning. I can even easily
> imagine a scenario where they are both true at the same time...
The accursed Langford wrote that book already, if memory serves,
a tome entitled "GUTS!"
David Dyer-Bennet
Mark Atwood
>
> Dude, Sana Claus is the god of capitalism! His holiday is Cashmas, the
> day when we make monetary sacrifices to reinvigorate the greater god,
> the economy.
No. Santa Claus is the god of *consumerism*. It's all about the
pleasure of getting, not the rewards of building or trading. There is
no element of risk of loss, and no coupling of work and reward, but
instead a poorly defined link between being "good" and *getting*
presents.
Many people confuse "consumerism" and "capitalism". It's a pernicious
error, almost as bad as confusing "business friendly" policies with
"friendly to specific businesses" politics, or generally assuming that
"pro-business" and "pro-capitalism" are synonyms, or that
"pro-business", "pro-consumer", "pro-individual", and
"pro-environment" are all at odds with each other.
Bob Webber
> Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org> writes:
>>
>> Dude, Sana Claus is the god of capitalism! His holiday is Cashmas, the
>> day when we make monetary sacrifices to reinvigorate the greater god,
>> the economy.
> No. Santa Claus is the god of *consumerism*. It's all about the
> pleasure of getting, not the rewards of building or trading. There is
> no element of risk of loss, and no coupling of work and reward, but
> instead a poorly defined link between being "good" and *getting*
> presents.
I dunno, I tend to think of Xsmas as the time of year when the junior
members of the family get their cut for helping the family run
smoothly and efficiently. But I have a friend whose kids exhibit
what I sometimes think is a remarkably strong sense of entitlement,
so perhaps my childhood was anomalous.
Certainly it seems consumerist to induce people to incur large amounts
of debt if they don't have the disposable income to otherwise prove
their love and approval to their kids.
> Many people confuse "consumerism" and "capitalism". It's a pernicious
> error, almost as bad as confusing "business friendly" policies with
> "friendly to specific businesses" politics, or generally assuming that
> "pro-business" and "pro-capitalism" are synonyms, or that
> "pro-business", "pro-consumer", "pro-individual", and
> "pro-environment" are all at odds with each other.
Without saying that they are specficially at odds, those are a lot
of dimensions to be optimizing in simultaneously. And it's hard to
find even two people completely in agreement about the weighting
to be applied to the value function in each dimension. Or what those
value functions looks like.
Your belief in the ability to achieve it is oddly optimistic, like
your intentions of living long enough to get off this mudball,
even living long enough to never have to die. It seems a bit at
odds with your attitude toward the people around you, since those
are the oxen with which you have to plow the field your ambitions
can grow in.
(Intended to have a friendly tone, btw.)
Arthur D. Hlavaty
Christmas: Christian religious holiday; celebrates birth of Jesus
Xmas: nice nonsectarian holiday when family and friends get together
$mas: holy day for Mammon, with mandatory purchasing and gifting
--
Arthur D.Hlavaty hla...@panix.com
Church of the SuperGenius in Wile E. we trust
E-zine available on request
Doug Wickstrom
<3bd531a1...@cnews.newsguy.com>
Tell me just what are the consequences of "incurring the wrath of
Santa" Claus. I know damned good and well what it was around my
house, but it had fuck-all to do with Santa Claus, and a lot to
do with my mother's lack of perspective, which I knew long before
I learned that song.
--
Doug Wickstrom
Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle, and will piss on
your fanzines.
Doug Wickstrom
<3bd5735...@cnews.newsguy.com>
rit...@cruzio.com (Lucy Kemnitzer) excited the ether to say:
>Still didn't get that one kid to do anything substantial, though.
Got him/her to stop bothering the others. Take your victories
where you can.
--
Doug Wickstrom
"Here's to our wives and girlfriends: May they never meet."
--Groucho Marx
Lucy Kemnitzer
<nims...@uswest.net> wrote:
>On Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:43:58 GMT, in message
><3bd5735...@cnews.newsguy.com>
> rit...@cruzio.com (Lucy Kemnitzer) excited the ether to say:
>
>>Still didn't get that one kid to do anything substantial, though.
>
>Got him/her to stop bothering the others. Take your victories
>where you can.
>
Today I got her to do her math. She had this long story about how
she'd already done it, but she'd given it to another kid ("my enemy, I
lent it to her so she would copy it and she wouldn't learn and I
would" -- everything she says is this weird, she fascinates me) and
never got it back. So I made a copy of some other kid's work and
whited out all the answers and gave it to her and she whipped through
it in a few minutes -- I don't know if she did it right, the other
kids who had the same homework were having lots of trouble with it,
there's something about combining negative and positive numbers that
makes at-risk kids break out in hives -- but I suspect she did it at
least okay, because I think she's actually kind of smart in a strange,
obstinate, anti-social, spoiled sort of way. She's pleasant to talk
to, but dang! the things she professes to have done! (mostly fighting)
I've got the little macho boys all in line -- I don't know how I did
it. But they do their work now, mostly, and they only act like jerks
until I notice them and talk to them. Some of them are even getting
results, now, on their grades. I almost don't want to get a "real"
position, now -- I mean a regular classroom with benefits and
tenure-track possibilities -- I'm getting an idea for How It's Done
with this support stuff, and I can't tell you how cool that is. I
don't get to develop curriculum, or go to meetings and help set
policy, and I don't get to be introduced to parents as their child's
teacher, or actually hand out the grades, but I do get to do these
other things and I get to know some things that nobody else knows.
Like how to get 50 squirrely middleschool kids to settle in and work
after they've been at school for eight hours already, even when
they've got wildly inappropriate work. Fifty. And get them all some
substantial encouragement and help, within an hour.
Lucy Kemnitzer
Jay E. Morris
Kemnitzer) wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Oct 2001 06:40:41 GMT, Doug Wickstrom
> <nims...@uswest.net> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:43:58 GMT, in message
> ><3bd5735...@cnews.newsguy.com>
> > rit...@cruzio.com (Lucy Kemnitzer) excited the ether to say:
> >
> >>Still didn't get that one kid to do anything substantial, though.
> >
> >Got him/her to stop bothering the others. Take your victories
> >where you can.
> >
>
> Today I got her to do her math. She had this long story about how
> she'd already done it, but she'd given it to another kid ("my enemy, I
> lent it to her so she would copy it and she wouldn't learn and I
> would" -- everything she says is this weird, she fascinates me) and
> never got it back. So I made a copy of some other kid's work and
> whited out all the answers and gave it to her and she whipped through
> it in a few minutes -- I don't know if she did it right, the other
> kids who had the same homework were having lots of trouble with it,
> there's something about combining negative and positive numbers that
> makes at-risk kids break out in hives -- but I suspect she did it at
> least okay, because I think she's actually kind of smart in a strange,
> obstinate, anti-social, spoiled sort of way. She's pleasant to talk
> to, but dang! the things she professes to have done! (mostly fighting)
Good lord, I didn't know you were teaching my kids! Oh wait, you're talking
current students. Although she still much the same, she's junior high now.
--
Jay E. Morris Epsilon 3 Productions www.epsilon3.com
Posted with Ink Spot (for Windows CE) from DejaVu Software, Inc.
Usenet wherever you are - http://www.dejavusoftware.com/
Lucy Kemnitzer
These are 6th, 7th, 8th grade students. The child I was talking about
there is in eighth grade but she's a year older than that because she
lost a year in first grade -- she told me two different stories as to
why: either she missed too much time because her mother let her stay
home when she felt like it, or she missed too much time because her
mother kept taking her to Mexico to see a sick grandmother.
Does your kid spend a day a week in the office for fighting (the
physical kind)? This one also carts around the picture of a boy she
claims to hate but she has also starred him in the comic strip she'd
drawing quite competently for art class, claiming he's the best skater
(excuse me, sk8er) in the world and the other boys hurt themselves
trying to copy him.
I got a million stories like this. On my weekend job, I do Saturday
School -- it's extended detention -- for a different middle school on
the opposite side of town. Yestreday I had only one kid, and she was
sick, so we talked for an hour and a half, and I gave her some paper
to practice her times tables on because she doesn't know them, and I
sent her home early. She had Saturday school because she's late to
school too often. Her mother works night shift, and she spends the
night at a babysitter's house. The babysitter doesn't want her to
shower and brush her teeth at her house, so she takes her to her own
house forty-five minutes before school starts, where the girl's mother
has just gotten home from work and is taking a shower herself before
going to bed. She stays at the after-school program until five, and
her mother takes her to the babysitter at five-thirty.
If it were me, I'd _never_ be on time to school, particularly since
being late to school is the only way she ever sees her mother, six
days a week.
So we spent the time looking into the various ways that she could
maybe get to school on time, and how she thinks the babysitter prefers
her older sister, and why she needs to get better grades in math if
she wants to be a secretary, and what she can do to do it.
She's a lovely young woman, well-spoken considering her English skills
are not great, and generous when she spoke of the babysitter, even
though it was clear she felt slighted.
Lucy Kemnitzer