another general question
Luta Ariadt
human/nonhuman hybrid, it looks like they'd have a lot of difficulty
speaking human verbal languages. So, to add some detail to one of the
furvey questions:
Assuming that, in a furry form, you couldn't intelligibly speak human
languages, would you still be willing to change? For the sake of
argument, human society at large remains predominantly human.
--
Luta Ariadt
cat
<luta_...@yahoo.com> miaoued:
I figure I could still write and type so there would be no big
problem. Besides somebeing would come up with a furry language that
takes muzzles into consideration and then we could talk again.
cat
Scurvy
"Luta Ariadt" <luta_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ap090j$o60$1...@raccoon.fur.com...
A good deal of the furs I know in real life can't speak anyhoo. I go to a
school with a large deaf population, and communicating in sign language is a
part of my daily life. Not to say I'm very good at it, but I am able to
communicate without opening my mouth. Of course, not many people
(relatively) in human society sign. But simple gesturing will probably get
me through, just like when a mute person goes out into society. I don't talk
to that many people anyways.
A small price to pay for a fur coat, tail, fangs, claws, and other such fun
stuff.
--Reverend Scurvy, the R.I.T. tiger
TygerMoon Foxx
>Assuming that, in a furry form, you couldn't intelligibly speak human
>languages, would you still be willing to change? For the sake of
>argument, human society at large remains predominantly human.
I think that, at our current technology level, it would be fairly easy
to develop a voder or translation box which would allow
animal-to-speech conversion (similar to that Japanese device for
pets). I also think it would be relatively simple to adjust things
like keyboards and chairs or adapt them for furry use. It would be no
different than the devices used by quadriplegics to work their
computers and communicate.
I'd probably still be willing to change, provide the process was
reversible and had no harmful affects.
Converted furries would face a far worse problem than confused
communication skills. That would be the least of their problems.
They would likely be viewed as second class citizens in a best case
scenario and as exotic pets or commodities in a worst case scenario.
Society at large tends to discard the value of an animal life and
regard them as tradeable commodities rather than living beings.
TygerMoon Foxx
Furry Code:
FFT[Bengal]cs3admrw/Z[Rainbow Siamese Faerie]mpsw2admw/CF[Siamese faerie foxcat]msw3dm/FJ3drw/CFms3drw/ArC[Bhrama bull]3drw/FD[tiger striped Siamese]ms1ads A++ C++ D H- M++++ P+++ R+ T++ W**$ Z+ Sf++/f#/f/f--/f?/m++/f++ RLA/C/LW a30 clnu++ d- e++ f+++ h+++ iwf+++ j+ p++ sf*
----------------------------------------------------------------
I am darkness and light, the shadow hunter and king of the sun.
My claws hold the earth, my tongue tastes the sky.
I am steadfast and strong, compassionate and caring.
I am tiger, and my words are pure.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Arrien and Sonata on FurryMUCK and FurrySpace MUCK
Polyhymnia on Furtoonia
AOL IM TygerMoon FOxx
ICQ 8393998
MSN Messenger TygerMoon
Yahoo! Pager tigrmoon
Tech Priest Eisenschwarz
super-scurry. Call out the troops now in a hurry! This is what we've
waited for.This is it boys, this is war. TygerMoon Foxx
<tyge...@paganportals.com> is on the line...
>I think that, at our current technology level, it would be fairly easy
>to develop a voder or translation box which would allow
>animal-to-speech conversion (similar to that Japanese device for
>pets). I also think it would be relatively simple to adjust things
>like keyboards and chairs or adapt them for furry use. It would be no
>different than the devices used by quadriplegics to work their
>computers and communicate.
Hmm, I think it would involve Algorithms.
>Converted furries would face a far worse problem than confused
>communication skills. That would be the least of their problems.
>They would likely be viewed as second class citizens in a best case
>scenario and as exotic pets or commodities in a worst case scenario.
>Society at large tends to discard the value of an animal life and
>regard them as tradeable commodities rather than living beings.
Slave Labour!
Non-Human bombs!
Death Camps!
Xenocide!
Mine Clearence!
DElcious Food!
--- Eisenschwarz-
"The troops sentenced to service in the Penal Battalions are there for life,
and must live under a tremendous burden of guilt; for not only have they committed crimes,
but in so doing they have betrayed the Emperor.
However, the Emperor in his mercy has ordained that Penal Battalion troops should have the opportunity to repent and atone for their crimes
Hence, the Human Bombs.
Any Penal Legion trooper may volunteer for service as a Human Bomb.
In addition to his normal equipment, he is fitted with an explosive harness.
The moment he dons the harness, he is absolved by the Emperor and the burden of his guilt is lifted."
David Fox
news:hfv7rusmq507a6sg2...@4ax.com...
> I think that, at our current technology level, it would be fairly easy
> to develop a voder or translation box which would allow
> animal-to-speech conversion (similar to that Japanese device for
> pets).
I was under the impression that the problem we have with communicating with
animals is that we don't know precisely what they are communicating with
different actions. We have assumptions, but no real proof.
> Converted furries would face a far worse problem than confused
> communication skills. That would be the least of their problems.
> They would likely be viewed as second class citizens in a best case
> scenario and as exotic pets or commodities in a worst case scenario.
> Society at large tends to discard the value of an animal life and
> regard them as tradeable commodities rather than living beings.
Again with the oppressed furries theory. I highly doubt it. In the end, if
you were able to make a person a furry I'd bet it would start with adding
ears and tails and other fashionable body parts (shoch rockers with
snake-like tongues, pop stars with fox ears, etc.). To wit, a furry would
end up being something at worst unfashionable, at best perceived as somewhat
privileged for being able to afford the cutting edge of genetic fashion.
David Fox
Rabbitswift
language or writing. There have been humans born without the ability of
speech. So as long as one could still understand a spoken language even
if they could not speak it themselves, there are ways around this problem.
Now here's a question right back at you. Do you suppose that these
individuals might be able to speak their own language? If so then perhaps
humans could learn to understand that language the same way these
individuals learn to understand human language {something made even
easier if these individuals had gone through some transformation into furs
from human themselves.}
If there was a way to become furry and I had made up my mind to
become so, this language barrier alone would not stop me.
--Rabbit.
So I asked the Raven as he passed by/I said tell me Raven how'd you
make the sky/I took the moon and stars and threw them high/I needed
someplace to be flying
--Wishing Chair, "Wyoming Wind"
Furcode: FMS[Spotted Skunk]3s A- C->+ D H+ M- P R+ T++++ W Z Sm#
RLLW/AT a23 c+ d e++ f++++ !h i+ j+ p+ sm#
Kamau
> human/nonhuman hybrid, it looks like they'd have a lot of difficulty
> speaking human verbal languages.
>
human language. For one many don't have a voice box that would allow the
control needed to generate some parts of human speech. Next the 'plumbing'
in the throat is different making the breath/wind/sound flow very different
and would distort speech. Lastly control of the tongue and lips could be
difficult. Even if they are controllable the sound coming from a long
muzzle will be quite different from a flatter/shorter human mouth.
There was an article on this I read on the web once but I never paid that
much attention to where it was (it was in my pre furry days).
> So, to add some detail to one of the
> furvey questions:
>
> Assuming that, in a furry form, you couldn't intelligibly speak human
> languages, would you still be willing to change? For the sake of
> argument, human society at large remains predominantly human.
>
Oh now this is what I call a real meat and potato question about furry.
Would I change?
Sure. As always I would have to be free of responsibilities to others to do
so but that's all that would hold me back.
To be a lion, on all fours and living with other lions/lionesses would be
fine with me. As to communicating with humans I think there are several
options available. One has been mentioned, using technology to 'translate'
the sounds a lion could make into a form of speech. Given a simple tools to
overcome the problem of striking one key at a time (I can't imagine a lion's
toes hitting less then 5 or 6 keys at once) a lion could still use a present
day keyboard to type. Given the proper type of sensor the flick of the ears
could be translated into words like using flags to send messages.
Putting aside technology there are still ways of communicating. There is
always the old 'yes' or 'no' response type of communication but that can be
difficult (ask anyone who's been in fursuit). A variety of responses could
be developed to mean various things. Lions and for that matter most animal
can generate a number of sounds. These could be keyed to have certain
meaning thus creating a kind of 'lion language'.
Even if none of these things were implemented I would still change. Seeing
how lions at the parks and sanctuaries I belong to seem to make their needs
known I don't think I would greatly miss human speech.
--
Kamau
}{For a Lion Pride is a strength not a weakness}{
FFL6ac A- C+ Dm++ H+ M P++ R+ T+++ W Z Sm# RLCT/GP a++ cn++ d e+++ f++h-i+j-
p* sm#
Grygon
"Scurvy" <scu...@csh.rit.edu> wrote in message
news:ap0pg6$otc$1...@raccoon.fur.com...
>
> A good deal of the furs I know in real life can't speak anyhoo. I go to a
> school with a large deaf population, and communicating in sign language is
a
> part of my daily life. Not to say I'm very good at it, but I am able to
> communicate without opening my mouth. Of course, not many people
> (relatively) in human society sign. But simple gesturing will probably get
> me through, just like when a mute person goes out into society. I don't
talk
> to that many people anyways.
>
> A small price to pay for a fur coat, tail, fangs, claws, and other such
fun
> stuff.
>
This is very odd. I was just yesterday thinking about this, wondering how
many deaf people out there are also furry. Actually thought to ask you but
wasn't sure if it would be a confidentiality or ethical thing... any
ways...
I too think I could get along just fine. I don't think I'd miss my pinky
finger that much (assuming it'd go bye-bye like in all my alter-ego
drawings) and writing and gesturing would suffice.
Snuhwolf
illegibly<ap090j$o60$1...@raccoon.fur.com>:
> Assuming that, in a furry form, you couldn't intelligibly speak human
> languages, would you still be willing to change? For the sake of
> argument, human society at large remains predominantly human.
>
Yeap...ina heartbeat.
HTH
~PRince Snuhwolf~
James Rau
Does anyone here remember the SF novel, The Architect of Sleep, by Stephen
Boyett? Came out in the early 1980s, I think. As I recall, the racoon
anthromorphs in that story had developed sign, rather than a spoken
language. The tables were turned somewhat on the human protagonist, as he
was the one who had to adapt to their way of "speaking."
James Rau
Fred
Wow, that's a tough question. Why are people always trying to make me
think?! Anyway, since my parents would disown me if I changed to
furry form, especially if I couldn't speak English, I probably
wouldn't do it. However, if my parents' position weren't an issue, I
would give it more thought. I don't talk that much anyway, so I might
just do it. However, I probably wouldn't be able to sing all my
pretty songs about potatoes and rusty tomotatoes. I think I would do
it, but only if I had another efficient way of communicating with
humans and other furs. This makes me wonder, however, would it be
even slightly possible, anatomically speaking, for anthropomorphic
creatures with longer muzzles to be able to speak human languages with
some further genetic modifications? Anatomy isn't my area.
--
Fred the Wolf
www.angelfire.com/ny/fredsonic/stuff
Luta Ariadt
...
> Does anyone here remember the SF novel, The Architect of Sleep, by Stephen
> Boyett? Came out in the early 1980s, I think. As I recall, the racoon
> anthromorphs in that story had developed sign, rather than a spoken
> language. The tables were turned somewhat on the human protagonist, as he
> was the one who had to adapt to their way of "speaking."
I've not read that one, but there's a good story by Ursula K. LeGuin
about the body language poetry of animals.
*searches brain for title... fails...*
--
Luta Ariadt
Luta Ariadt
...
> Converted furries would face a far worse problem than confused
> communication skills. That would be the least of their problems.
> They would likely be viewed as second class citizens in a best case
> scenario and as exotic pets or commodities in a worst case scenario.
> Society at large tends to discard the value of an animal life and
> regard them as tradeable commodities rather than living beings.
I think it would be more subtle than that. Animals made to have more
intelligence would have a hard time of it, at first, but I'm not cynical
enough to think we've forgotten *everything* we learned from slavery.
People made to be more animallike would, I expect, be discriminated
against since "they chose to make themselves like that", but I still
don't think they'd be (any more than a human) commodified.
--
Luta Ariadt
Luta Ariadt
You got rid of your clever spelling! Why?
--
Luta Ariadt
Luta Ariadt
...
> Now here's a question right back at you. Do you suppose that these
> individuals might be able to speak their own language? If so then perhaps
> humans could learn to understand that language the same way these
> individuals learn to understand human language {something made even
> easier if these individuals had gone through some transformation into furs
> from human themselves.}
I was thinking furs would have some sort of language. I don't think it
would be as verbal as human language, since there don't appear to be the
right development of face muscles and whatnot, but plenty of
opportunity to develop complex body language. It's more convenient in a
crowded room anyway. <g>
--
Luta Ariadt
Luta Ariadt
...
> humans and other furs. This makes me wonder, however, would it be
> even slightly possible, anatomically speaking, for anthropomorphic
> creatures with longer muzzles to be able to speak human languages with
> some further genetic modifications? Anatomy isn't my area.
I think it might. We can assume the brain-control and voicebox problems
are resolved, since that doesn't (presumably) change the person's
overall furry form. Then it's just necessary to develop the lip & tongue
muscles for finer control and greater endurance. The tongue might be a
problem with an elongated mouth. I think the lips would be easier, but
it would probably look pretty funky. It's not my area either.
--
Luta Ariadt
TygerMoon Foxx
<luta_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>intelligence would have a hard time of it, at first, but I'm not cynical
>enough to think we've forgotten *everything* we learned from slavery.
I used to think that way...until I moved to the South. People HAVE
forgotten and continue to forget and the forgetting goes both ways.
There are still places where you don't "belong" and had better not
walk alone if you're a certain skin color (or if you're NOT a certain
skin color). It's sadly rather common to find the blacks down here
denied better housing and better job opportunities. We have
multi-million dollar city improvement plan but the "black section" of
town will receive none of those improvements and they need it most;
entire sections of those neighborhoods flood any time there's
significant rain and you could run an ox through many of the potholes.
The street lights haven't been replaced since the 1920s and many of
them don't work anymore.
Trust me, humans HAVE forgotten what there was to be learned from
slavery. If they hadn't the above issues wouldn't exist and we
wouldn't have people being held indefinitely without due process
simply because they happen to have the wrong ancestry. I could tell
you some real horror stories about the illegal aliens Florida holds in
its jails.
>People made to be more animallike would, I expect, be discriminated
>against since "they chose to make themselves like that", but I still
>don't think they'd be (any more than a human) commodified.
Oh, humans are commodities too. You're judged in every way by your
use to someone else, especially if you're a woman. The value of a
human life doesn't really mean squat to most folk; they can't even
maintain simple social courtesies without screwing it up. I wouldn't
expect better for a human modified into an animal.
TygerMoon Foxx
<foxd...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Again with the oppressed furries theory.
Again? I've been gone from here almost a year and I doubt you've ever
heard it from me.
You've probably also never lived with a handicap that made you
significantly different from the rest of the population or been of a
different culture or race than those around you either. And you've
definitely never worked animal rescue.
It's human nature to reject and repress what they don't understand.
I've been epileptic for most of my adult life and I see it all the
time. People treat you poorly if they perceive you are somehow
different from them. I've been literally isolated --- a sea of empty
desks around where I sat--- because people STILL think epilepsy is
contagious. I've been denied access to housing and fired from
employment because people didn't want to work with the 'retard' or the
weirdo. I've seen a perfectly good man still capable of doing his job
fired because his coworkers were bothered by his prosthetic devices.
And people do not have the veneration or respect for animals as
individual beings with a life. I've seen enough of "Could you take my
<insert pet here>? He doesn't match the carpet/I got a new baby/my
girlfriend doesn't want him/he doesn't match the furniture" to last me
a lifetime. People will most likely treat anything resembling an
animal as an animal....and that means being treated like a commodity.
The shelters are full of spent commodities --- animals that don't
match the owner's new lifestyle or that didn't blend with the new
furniture or whose lives were thrown away because some idiot wanted
his children to witness the miracle of birth first hand.
I mean, we can't even respect the diversity present within the human
geonome; we're still tearing each other up over things as
insignificant as region of origin, sexual orientation, and skin color.
I simply can't see a world that would accept with open arms the
transition of a furry as a fashion statement (or lack thereof). I've
seen the reactions of folk when others wear their ears and tails in
public on an otherwise normal day; I'm not naive enough to think
those reactions would change for the better if the ears and tails were
the genuine article rather than prosthetics.
Grygon
I am going to check both these books out... tho a title for that Ursula (who
I personally hated for having to read Left Hand of Darkness) book would
help, she is popular:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/002-7235886-7392047
Any of thsoe ring any bells?
Luta Ariadt
...
> I am going to check both these books out... tho a title for that Ursula (who
> I personally hated for having to read Left Hand of Darkness) book would
"Having to read" is a great way to spoil a person's introduction to an
author. I fell in love with her writing style on reading
_The_Disposessed_ back in grade school.
> help, she is popular:
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/002-7235886-7392047
>
> Any of thsoe ring any bells?
Unfortunately, no, though I remember it as a short story in a
collection. Knowing my memory it's probably part of my collection of
random knowledge. I'm sorely in need of an index.
--
Luta Ariadt
cat
<luta_...@yahoo.com> miaoued:
>Rabbitswift wrote:
Until someone pours the inevitible cold drink down someone's
back. Then their gyrations manage to insult the biggest, most ill
tempered being in the room. Ah, the joy of multilingual parties.
cat
Grygon
> Grygon wrote:
> ...
> > I am going to check both these books out... tho a title for that Ursula
(who
> > I personally hated for having to read Left Hand of Darkness) book would
>
> "Having to read" is a great way to spoil a person's introduction to an
> author. I fell in love with her writing style on reading
> _The_Disposessed_ back in grade school.
>
Well, I did say I was gonna read the book about the body language of animals
by her didn't I? So, yes... I was not completely put off. And I really did
HAVE to read. In fact I expressed my disapointment (very briefly) to the
teacher in an essay on the final exam. He was cool with it, understood. :)
What is the Disposessed about?
If you've ever heard of the Left Hand of Darkness, then you know why I was
disapointed.
> > help, she is popular:
> > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/002-7235886-7392047
> >
> > Any of thsoe ring any bells?
>
> Unfortunately, no, though I remember it as a short story in a
> collection. Knowing my memory it's probably part of my collection of
> random knowledge. I'm sorely in need of an index.
>
Hmm... she has over 80 short stories... happy fishing? :)
http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/authors/leguin/short.html
Luta Ariadt
...
> What is the Disposessed about?
It's been a while, but it's about a member of a utopian society who
visits its less-than-utopian neighbor. Both societies are breaking down,
and he's more or less in the middle. Really it's an excuse to have
interesting characters get together and discuss interesting things.
On reflection, I think I should read the book again, to get more than a
12-year-old's perspective on it.
Really I prefer her short stories, though.
> If you've ever heard of the Left Hand of Darkness, then you know why I was
> disapointed.
I've read it. Why were you disappointed?
...
> Hmm... she has over 80 short stories... happy fishing? :)
> http://www.feministsf.org/femsf/authors/leguin/short.html
Well, progress, I believe it was in _The_Compass_Rose_. I haven't been
able to find descriptions of the individual stories, though.
--
Luta Ariadt
Luta Ariadt
...
> Until someone pours the inevitible cold drink down someone's
> back.
If you think that's bad, try a hot drink. The burning!
--
Luta Ariadt
Dennis Lee Bieber
>
>
> I am going to check both these books out... tho a title for that
Good luck finding AoS -- it never made a second printing as I
recall... And if you do find, you might be disappointed at the ending
(or lack thereof -- it was supposed to be part one of a two or three
part series and the rest have never been published)
--
--
> ============================================================== <
> wlf...@ix.netcom.com | Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG <
> wulf...@dm.net | Bestiaria Support Staff <
> ============================================================== <
> Bestiaria Home Page: http://www.beastie.dm.net/ <
> Home Page: http://www.dm.net/~wulfraed/ <
Rabbitswift
<luta_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> James Rau wrote:
> ....
language for communication. There's the one written from the viewpoint of
the lab rat. One of the saddest stories I ever read, too, though I can't
remember it's title. "The Maze" I think.
Rabbitswift
was in "Buffalo Gals" and was about ants.
I like Le Guin but, unfortunately, I haven't had the time to read too much
of her stuff. I think there's a new Earthsea book out though and as soon
as it goes to paperback I plan to get it.
Snuhwolf
illegibly<ap2hv4$q8j$2...@raccoon.fur.com>:
>Snuhwolf wrote:
>
>You got rid of your clever spelling! Why?
>
What do you mean?
~PrinCE Snuhwolf~
Rabbitswift
> slavery. If they hadn't the above issues wouldn't exist and we
> wouldn't have people being held indefinitely without due process
> simply because they happen to have the wrong ancestry. I could tell
> you some real horror stories about the illegal aliens Florida holds in
> its jails.
>
American Civil War, the Civil Rights marches in the 1960's, Women's
Rights demonstrations, and more, have all only just happened. Historically
speaking. One hundred years, two hundred, that's no time at all, really. It
has become less and less fashionable to discriminate against others based
on skin colour, sex, disability, etc. And anti-discrimination policies have
finally gained official backing.
But for all of the advances that have been made it might take another
hundred years, maybe two, before discrimination begins to fade noticeably.
Today it has fallen out of favor with the populace at large and been forced
underground. And that's a good start. But rather than forget I think there
are people who are, rather, resisting these lessons.
Still and all I agree with your sentiments Tygermoon. People need to
learn. And they need to remember what they've learned.
--Rabbit, sorry 'bout the lecture but it's a hard habit to break.
Luta Ariadt
...
> Or actually "Buffalo Gals" has a couple of stories that deal with body
> language for communication. There's the one written from the viewpoint of
> the lab rat. One of the saddest stories I ever read, too, though I can't
> remember it's title. "The Maze" I think.
> --Rabbit.
I checked _The_Compass_Rose_ out from the library today & skimmed it.
"The Author of the Acacia Seeds" and "Mazes" are both in there, and both
along those lines, but not what I was thinking of. At least I got to
read "The White Donkey" again, so sad.
Since it isn't that book, I don't think I'll ever find the story. All I
know is a visual memory of where the book is located, and I don't expect
to get back to McMurdo anytime soon. :)
--
Luta Ariadt
Luta Ariadt
Once upon a time your name did read
§ñüHwØlf
but now is it simply
Snuhwolf
and I do miss the old way.
--
Luta Ariadt
David Fox
news:1103_10...@news.critter.net...
> Unfortunately this whole idea of equality is a pretty new one. The
> American Civil War, the Civil Rights marches in the 1960's, Women's
> Rights demonstrations, and more, have all only just happened. Historically
> speaking. One hundred years, two hundred, that's no time at all, really.
Historically speaking, small amounts of time is becoming more and more
important. The industrial revolution changed the world in 50 years. The
aeronautic revolution united the world in 40. The aerospace revolution
inaugurated a new era of communication in a mere 10. The computer revolution
changed the way we see and think about information in 5. As the world
becomes more communicative and less isolated, smaller periods of time become
more and more important. Social changes used to take 100s of years because
the ideas were communicated slowly to one or two people at a time through
trade. Now whole new philosophies can be disseminated to millions
instantaneously. All this means that history turns on days and weeks, works
in terms of moments rather than dynasties.
> But for all of the advances that have been made it might take another
> hundred years, maybe two, before discrimination begins to fade noticeably.
Have you seen a whites only drinking fountain lately? Or been asked to go to
the back of the bus? Seen someone turned away from the polls because of the
color of their skin? Negative discrimination is dead in all of its truly
consequential forms, what people talk about now when they talk about civil
rights are simply the cobwebs and dust of the past. Let's not let a little
untidiness lead us to make statements that imply the failure of truly brave
people in truly dynamic times.
> People need to
> learn. And they need to remember what they've learned.
People do not need to learn, to say so is to draw a line directly connecting
today's 8 year olds to yesterday's Klansmen. The trick to ending
discrimination is that these things are taught to children, thus the only
way to end in all corners is simply not to teach it anymore.
David Fox
David Fox
news:glj9rus0fai8oc1kv...@4ax.com...
> Again? I've been gone from here almost a year and I doubt you've ever
> heard it from me.
I hate to break the news to you, but you do not have to bring up the subject
for it to have been a past topic. The idea of furs being discriminated in a
furry-human world is not new on this group.
> You've probably also never lived with a handicap that made you
> significantly different from the rest of the population or been of a
> different culture or race than those around you either. And you've
> definitely never worked animal rescue.
Aside from the astute observation that I (like the overwhelming statistical
majority) am not significantly handicapped, you are completely wrong. Of
course I hate it, absolutely hate it, when people make assumptions like
yours (especially when they're wrong). If I liked to play the victim game,
I'd say this is a personal attack by inference and implication, but rather,
regardless of the banalities placed before me by people who shoot their
mouths off before they've given what they've said a moment's thought, I like
to think of myself as moving forward and only self-oppressed. Therefore,
pardon me if I seem a bit harsh, but this truly is the nicest of 8 different
replies I've formulated.
> I've been epileptic for most of my adult life and I see it all the
> time.
And here you drop the line I expected. Very good, you've proudly marched
into the ranks of the type of people I have little patience with: the
"respect me because I faced an obstacle in my life" crowd. Hate to break it
to you, but life is full of obstacles large and small, it is up to the
individual to improve their lot, this society owes you nothing, not even
basic respect and courtesy, something you have not expressed all too well in
the past it seems.
Others here have problems in their lives, and they are not trotting them out
as badges of honor. Ursus took his obstacle (the one resulting in surgery)
with the requisite stress, but also with resolve and ultimately humor and a
desire to work past the difficulties it presented for him. Warren did the
same with the loss of his ministry, and many others have and continue to do
likewise, those two are the ones who have made their obstacles and their
overcoming them most public. I do not see them tossing them around as giving
them a moral superiority, the right to talk down on people just because they
lost a round in the universe's crap shoot, but I see you do it fairly often.
> People treat you poorly if they perceive you are somehow
> different from them. I've been literally isolated --- a sea of empty
> desks around where I sat--- because people STILL think epilepsy is
> contagious.
Most people do not think epilepsy is contagious anymore than they believe
Down syndrome is. However, most people avoid people with chronic epileptic
fits (especially people with violent ones) because they fear that they might
be harmed during one. Let's face it, put yourself in someone else's shoes
for a moment and imagine seeing a severe, violent fit. Imagine you're not
terribly medically aware. What just happened? What should you do? Are they
okay? Is this a heart attack? What's going on? Imagine the confusion, the
stress, the feeling that something is happening, you don't know what, and
you don't know how to stop it. People feel danger in the situation, but they
are left only with the option of isolating themselves.
> I've been denied access to housing and fired from
> employment because people didn't want to work with the 'retard' or the
> weirdo. I've seen a perfectly good man still capable of doing his job
> fired because his coworkers were bothered by his prosthetic devices.
Life isn't always fair.
> I mean, we can't even respect the diversity present within the human
> geonome; we're still tearing each other up over things as
> insignificant as region of origin, sexual orientation, and skin color.
I haven't yet been informed of any recent pogroms, or race riots resulting
in black areas of town burned to rubble, nor have I noticed a systematic
execution of gays nor people from specific regions in the US. As a matter of
fact what I see is ordinary people walking on eggshells around minorities
and the handicapped. The only stigma associated with them is the fear that
you'll get arrested for a hate crime if something you say is taken wrong.
> I've
> seen the reactions of folk when others wear their ears and tails in
> public on an otherwise normal day;
There are only two other groups coming to mind that wear ears and tails on a
normal day: strippers and prostitutes. I wonder what reaction they get?
> I'm not naive enough to think
> those reactions would change for the better if the ears and tails were
> the genuine article rather than prosthetics.
I'm not historically naive enough to believe that things don't occur without
context.
David Fox
Luta Ariadt
...
> I haven't yet been informed of any recent pogroms, or race riots resulting
> in black areas of town burned to rubble, nor have I noticed a systematic
> execution of gays nor people from specific regions in the US.
Last summer the home of a lesbian couple suing the State of Montana for
health benefits like straight married people get was set on fire.
Suspicion fell on them, they were supposed to have burned it themselves
to generate sympathy. Admittedly its not systematic execution, but...
--
Luta Ariadt
don't get me started on the closet fiasco
Warren Forest
news:ap5eqa$sln$1...@raccoon.fur.com...
> And here you drop the line I expected. Very good, you've proudly marched
> into the ranks of the type of people I have little patience with: the
> "respect me because I faced an obstacle in my life" crowd.
I respect people because they've faced obstacles in their lives. The fact
is that people get crushed all the time, and when others overcome and avoid
being crushed, it is something to respect and admire and encourage.
I also think that the statement "Life isn't fair" is a dirge, not a rallying
cry.
> Hate to break it
> to you, but life is full of obstacles large and small, it is up to the
> individual to improve their lot, this society owes you nothing, not even
> basic respect and courtesy, something you have not expressed all too well
in
> the past it seems.
That's garbage. Oh, it's a good attitude if you think life is all about
sorting "good" people from "bad" people, and dividing "success" from
"failure" and all that, but if you believe that life is about living, then
it's nonsense. Western society wasn't built upon the concept of "we owe you
nothing", it was built upon the idea that the individual is what matters.
It's why we've gone and made these artificial things called "rights", and we
try to respect them. We try to take care of each other. We feel we, as a
society, owe it to those less fortunate to help them.
So tell me, what's a "successful" person to you? Who would you label a
"failure"?
--
Warren Forest, Canis Lupus Arctos - The Canadian Arctic Wolf
FCW3a A- C D++ H+ M- P+ R+ T++++ W Z- Sm#
RLET a30 c++ d-- e+ f h+ i+ j p- sm#
Change "Cold" to "Hot" to e-mail me.
David Fox
news:ap5gui$sna$1...@raccoon.fur.com...
> I respect people because they've faced obstacles in their lives. The fact
> is that people get crushed all the time, and when others overcome and
avoid
> being crushed, it is something to respect and admire and encourage.
Overcoming obstacles is different than trying to beat people down with the
obstacles you face. There is a paramount difference between people who work
hard to better themselves and accept their own shortcomings and people who
try to constantly blame others for their problems. Quite frankly, I do not
believe simple disability engenders some greater respect for the same
reasons I do not believe that ethnicity, sexual orientations, country of
origin, gender, etc. are a basis of any positive or negative attitudes at
the individual level, none of these things confers on people any amount of
nobility, only the actual merits of the person can do that. I reject on its
very fundamentals the idea of treating people with respect or disrespect for
any reason other than their actions and character.
> I also think that the statement "Life isn't fair" is a dirge, not a
rallying
> cry.
It's the same as the slogan "shit happens," in my view it points out
rightfully that things do not go in such a ways to generate a constantly
perfect outcome. Facing discrimination? Deal with it. Facing handicaps? Deal
with it. Facing economic hardships? Deal with it. If you do not deal with
your problems you cannot overcome them, admitting that these things happen
is, in my opinion the first step. Realistically, it is the force of the
facts that leads someone away from being able to claim a victimization-based
moral superiority, life is not fair, and that is true across the board. The
only nobility you get out of your obstacles is by overcoming them, dealing
with them. You get no respect from me by talking about your disability or
waving it around like a bloody shirt. Unless you're going to show me
overcoming hardships rather than lapsing into an endless self-pity, you're
just someone trying to milk emotions from people and that sickens me deeply.
> That's garbage. Oh, it's a good attitude if you think life is all about
> sorting "good" people from "bad" people, and dividing "success" from
> "failure" and all that, but if you believe that life is about living, then
> it's nonsense.
Not seeing what this has to do with Tyger's constant oppressed/repressed
victimology. Fact is, I never defined success, thank you very much Warren,
and somehow I doubt you have the slightest clue what I think success is. You
have jumped right into the same rhetoric that makes me so angry with Tyger
in the first place: making unqualified assumptions. Specifically, she
assumes that because I disagree with her constant victimizations that I must
have no personal experiences whatsoever, because if I did, I'd agree with
her. That is garbage, and it reaks to high heaven.
> Western society wasn't built upon the concept of "we owe you
> nothing", it was built upon the idea that the individual is what matters.
Precisely. It is the individual that matters. Thank you for putting another
nail in the coffin for Tyger's rhetoric stereotyping the South. The fact is,
the victimologies she expresses are not about individuals, it is about
giving to entire classes of people the bad traits of a few. That is the road
to xenophobia, and one down which I do not depart.
> It's why we've gone and made these artificial things called "rights", and
we
> try to respect them. We try to take care of each other. We feel we, as a
> society, owe it to those less fortunate to help them.
I disagree fundamentally. I believe that in Western society we have a duty
(a debt to conscience or Creator, whichever your spiritual preference) to
help those less fortunate. If we simply owed those people these things, it
would not be charity, it would be paying debts and now you have made the
best parts of Western society a base matter of moral mortgaging. I reject
that concept as well, charity comes from the heart, if you owe, it comes
from the wallet.
> So tell me, what's a "successful" person to you? Who would you label a
> "failure"?
It honestly doesn't matter what I tell you, frankly I've descended to far
into cynicism to say too much about my personal ethics, because unless my
views line up with Hitler, I guarantee you I'll be accused of lying and
back-pedaling.
David Fox
David Fox
> Last summer the home of a lesbian couple suing the State of Montana for
> health benefits like straight married people get was set on fire.
> Suspicion fell on them, they were supposed to have burned it themselves
> to generate sympathy. Admittedly its not systematic execution, but...
This goes hand in hand with my logic, those elements of society which have
not removed discrimination from themselves as best they can gather on its
fringes. Montana, geographically and demographically speaking, is about as
on the fringes as you can get without a visit to deep Mississippi or
Mountain Home, Arkansas. Here with limited mainstream access and the
constant encroachment of society on their citadel (the very fact the lesbian
couple exists is proof of this process) their ideologies will be slowly
relegate to obsolescence in their own homes.
David Fox
Rabbitswift
there can't be major changes in short periods of time.
> > But for all of the advances that have been made it might take
another
> > hundred years, maybe two, before discrimination begins to fade
noticeably.
>
> Have you seen a whites only drinking fountain lately? Or been asked to
go to
> the back of the bus? Seen someone turned away from the polls
because of the
> color of their skin? Negative discrimination is dead in all of its truly
> consequential forms, what people talk about now when they talk about
civil
> rights are simply the cobwebs and dust of the past. Let's not let a little
> untidiness lead us to make statements that imply the failure of truly brave
> people in truly dynamic times.
>
I did say, I think, that this discrimination has become more subtle. It
doesn't always mean whites only drinking fountains or things of that
nature. It's down to snide comments. It's down to "I don't want my children
to go to /that/ school because of all the blacks." A statement which was
made to me by a woman who assumed that, because of the colour of my
skin, I'd agree with her.
And I don't mean to deny anyone any victories. People like Martin Luther
King Jr and Susan B. Anthony are worthy of praise. But the things they
fought against are still around. So my point was that nobody had forgotten
but rather than things were in remission. I had intended this in the most
positive light possible.
> > People need to
> > learn. And they need to remember what they've learned.
>
> People do not need to learn, to say so is to draw a line directly
connecting
> today's 8 year olds to yesterday's Klansmen. The trick to ending
> discrimination is that these things are taught to children, thus the only
> way to end in all corners is simply not to teach it anymore.
>
I was thinking not of children, but of the human race as a whole. People
need to /do/ what you say. People need to realize that this is how to end
any form of discrimination. That is what I meant by learn. They, we, as a
species, need to bear this in mind.
--Rabbit.
Snuhwolf
illegibly<ap5eqa$sln$1...@raccoon.fur.com>:
>
>Aside from the astute observation that I (like the overwhelming
statistical
>majority) am not significantly handicapped, you are completely wrong.
Of
>course I hate it, absolutely hate it, when people make assumptions
like
>yours (especially when they're wrong). If I liked to play the victim
game,
>I'd say this is a personal attack by inference and implication, but
rather,
>regardless of the banalities placed before me by people who shoot
their
>mouths off before they've given what they've said a moment's thought,
I like
>to think of myself as moving forward and only self-oppressed.
Therefore,
>pardon me if I seem a bit harsh, but this truly is the nicest of 8
different
>replies I've formulated.
Then let me change the tone a bit: Fuck off Dave :o)
You are speaking from the POV of a person whos ineriting Daddy's
Buisness, have no major health issues( asside from your terminal
republicanism )and enjoy a relatively easy lifestyle as a student in a
part of the country that most people wpould rate as "nice".
The day you actually face real hardship...get back to us.Until then
you're just another conservative brat with no "sympathy for those
misfortuneates".
HTH
HAND
:o)
~PRince SNuhwolf~
Warren Forest
> I reject on its
> very fundamentals the idea of treating people with respect or disrespect
for
> any reason other than their actions and character.
OK, fair enough, but do you judge actions and character on an absolute scale
or a relative one?
Do people who have obstacles to overcome but fail rate lower than people who
have no obstacles to overcome and, obviously, succeed?
If somebody has an obstacle, I find it is often unfair to judge them even if
they have failed to overcome it. Not being them, I can't say how hard
they've tried or how hard the obstacle was. Similarly, some obstacles are
simple to overcome for some, and nearly impossible for others.
> Unless you're going to show me
> overcoming hardships rather than lapsing into an endless self-pity, you're
> just someone trying to milk emotions from people and that sickens me
deeply.
But what is it you want them to "show you"? Is what you're looking for a
fair and just standard by which to judge whether somebody is "someone trying
to milk emotions from people"?
Again, how do you know how hard hardships are to overcome?
> > That's garbage. Oh, it's a good attitude if you think life is all about
> > sorting "good" people from "bad" people, and dividing "success" from
> > "failure" and all that, but if you believe that life is about living,
then
> > it's nonsense.
>
> Not seeing what this has to do with Tyger's constant oppressed/repressed
> victimology. Fact is, I never defined success, thank you very much Warren,
> and somehow I doubt you have the slightest clue what I think success is.
Absolutely! That's exactly what I don't know.
You made the statement that "life is full of obstacles large and small, it
is up to the individual to improve their lot". Who does this apply to?
Obviously not one month old infants, at least, but what other exceptions
exist, if any? Who "passes" and gets help, and who "fails" and doesn't?
> You
> have jumped right into the same rhetoric that makes me so angry with Tyger
> in the first place: making unqualified assumptions. Specifically, she
> assumes that because I disagree with her constant victimizations that I
must
> have no personal experiences whatsoever, because if I did, I'd agree with
> her. That is garbage, and it reaks to high heaven.
Not exactly. If it's a case of thinking "if you knew, you'd agree", then
yes, you're right, and that's making unqualified assumptions.
But I'm thinking "if you understood, you'd empathize", which is not the same
thing. I get the feeling that you don't empathize because you do not
relate.
I've had personal experiences, just like everybody, but I've never suffered
like I've seen others suffer. I know my experiences mean nothing compared
to theirs, so therfore I empathize as best I can. I don't agree with many
views of such people, but I can understand why they have them, and must
admit that if I was in their place, I either would not have survived at all
or else probably would have adopted more similar beliefs to theirs.
> > It's why we've gone and made these artificial things called "rights",
and
> we
> > try to respect them. We try to take care of each other. We feel we, as
a
> > society, owe it to those less fortunate to help them.
>
> I disagree fundamentally. I believe that in Western society we have a duty
> (a debt to conscience or Creator, whichever your spiritual preference) to
> help those less fortunate. If we simply owed those people these things, it
> would not be charity, it would be paying debts and now you have made the
> best parts of Western society a base matter of moral mortgaging. I reject
> that concept as well, charity comes from the heart, if you owe, it comes
> from the wallet.
Hmm... sounds like a page strait from a Philosophy class on ethics. Fair
enough. You tend towards Kant's view that we have an imperfect moral duty
to sometimes help those in need (which retains the morally "good" value of
giving and sacrifice), while rejecting a Utilitarian view that we have an
absolute obligation (which says there is no morally "good" value to giving
and sacrifice, but rather you simply *must* do them).
I tend to agree with that view myself, so perhaps "owe" was the wrong word.
> > So tell me, what's a "successful" person to you? Who would you label a
> > "failure"?
>
> It honestly doesn't matter what I tell you, frankly I've descended to far
> into cynicism to say too much about my personal ethics, because unless my
> views line up with Hitler, I guarantee you I'll be accused of lying and
> back-pedaling.
There's no easy cure for cynicism. It's something I still stuggle with.
The universe begs to be viewed cynically, but people, as individuals, do
not. Oh sure, there's lots of grade-A morons and idiots for cynics to feast
upon, but at the same time there are people who defy the laws of cynicism.
There are people who really are smart, who really do care, who really are
happy, and who really do give joy, hope, love, understanding, encouragement,
and purpose to the lives of others. As long as they exist, then cynicism is
just another lifestyle choice, and little more.
Snuhwolf
illegibly<ap5sjg$tdo$1...@raccoon.fur.com>:
>
>This goes hand in hand with my logic, those elements of society which
have
>not removed discrimination from themselves as best they can gather on
its
>fringes. Montana, geographically and demographically speaking, is
about as
>on the fringes as you can get without a visit to deep Mississippi or
>Mountain Home, Arkansas. Here with limited mainstream access and the
>constant encroachment of society on their citadel (the very fact the
lesbian
>couple exists is proof of this process) their ideologies will be
slowly
>relegate to obsolescence in their own homes.
>
>David Fox
>
What a clueless fuck...Missoula is a university town and probably the
most liberal town in the western half of Montana.Your argument is
stupid because a gay guy was beat up for hugging his boyfriend in
SoCal...not a backwards-ass-country-fuck type of area.
Try again Dave :o)
~Prince Snuhwolf~
Snuhwolf
illegibly<ap5sat$sti$1...@raccoon.fur.com>:
>"Warren Forest" <warren...@coldmail.com> wrote in message
>news:ap5gui$sna$1...@raccoon.fur.com...
>> I respect people because they've faced obstacles in their lives.
The fact
>> is that people get crushed all the time, and when others overcome
and
>avoid
>> being crushed, it is something to respect and admire and encourage.
>
>Overcoming obstacles is different than trying to beat people down with
the
>obstacles you face.
And whos doing that here?
>There is a paramount difference between people who work
>hard to better themselves and accept their own shortcomings and people
who
>try to constantly blame others for their problems.
Remember folks this is coming from a guy whos inheriting Daddys
Buisness.
>Quite frankly, I do not
>believe simple disability engenders some greater respect for the same
>reasons I do not believe that ethnicity, sexual orientations, country
of
>origin, gender, etc. are a basis of any positive or negative attitudes
at
>the individual level, none of these things confers on people any
amount of
>nobility, only the actual merits of the person can do that. I reject
on its
>very fundamentals the idea of treating people with respect or
disrespect for
>any reason other than their actions and character.
>
Then why dis TMF for her simple expressing of her experiences which
differ from yours?
Thats not allowed?
Hmmm...
>> I also think that the statement "Life isn't fair" is a dirge, not a
>rallying
>> cry.
>
>It's the same as the slogan "shit happens," in my view it points out
>rightfully that things do not go in such a ways to generate a
constantly
>perfect outcome. Facing discrimination? Deal with it.
Ok, maybe speaking up about it is "dealing with it"?
>Facing handicaps? Deal
>with it. Facing economic hardships? Deal with it. If you do not deal
with
>your problems you cannot overcome them, admitting that these things
happen
>is, in my opinion the first step.
Uh...I dont think the actuality of those things occuring is in dispute
here Dave...
> Realistically, it is the force of the
>facts that leads someone away from being able to claim a
victimization-based
>moral superiority, life is not fair, and that is true across the
board. The
>only nobility you get out of your obstacles is by overcoming them,
dealing
>with them. You get no respect from me by talking about your disability
or
>waving it around like a bloody shirt. Unless you're going to show me
>overcoming hardships rather than lapsing into an endless self-pity,
you're
>just someone trying to milk emotions from people and that sickens me
deeply.
>
Thats what TMF was telling us.You turned it into "whining about her
life".THats your spin...and as usual ITS WRONG :O)
>> That's garbage. Oh, it's a good attitude if you think life is all
about
>> sorting "good" people from "bad" people, and dividing "success" from
>> "failure" and all that, but if you believe that life is about
living, then
>> it's nonsense.
>
>Not seeing what this has to do with Tyger's constant
oppressed/repressed
>victimology. Fact is, I never defined success, thank you very much
Warren,
>and somehow I doubt you have the slightest clue what I think success
is.
Because youre either unable to provide an answer or youre just avoiding
the question.Dodgeing and weaving are yor best bets here Dave...yep :o)
>You
>have jumped right into the same rhetoric that makes me so angry with
Tyger
>in the first place: making unqualified assumptions.
ROTFLMAO! And youve met TMF personally and can tell that shes "just
whineing" how?
> Specifically, she
>assumes that because I disagree with her constant victimizations that
I must
>have no personal experiences whatsoever, because if I did, I'd agree
with
>her. That is garbage, and it reaks to high heaven.
>
No...its your typical lack of empathy for anyone who voices a counter-
conservative opinion.Your red neck tie is showing Dave...
>> Western society wasn't built upon the concept of "we owe you
>> nothing", it was built upon the idea that the individual is what
matters.
>
>Precisely. It is the individual that matters. Thank you for putting
another
>nail in the coffin for Tyger's rhetoric stereotyping the South.
You stupid git.YOU just said in another post that arkansaw is fringe.If
you can stereotype regions why cant she?Pure genius Dave...pure genius.
>The fact is,
>the victimologies she expresses are not about individuals, it is about
>giving to entire classes of people the bad traits of a few. That is
the road
>to xenophobia, and one down which I do not depart.
>
Bullshit.Retract your post about all the people who live in montana and
arkansaws?
ROTFLMAO!
>> It's why we've gone and made these artificial things called
"rights", and
>we
>> try to respect them. We try to take care of each other. We feel
we, as a
>> society, owe it to those less fortunate to help them.
>
>I disagree fundamentally. I believe that in Western society we have a
duty
>(a debt to conscience or Creator, whichever your spiritual preference)
to
>help those less fortunate.
THeres a difference between debt and owe now????? You're really
grasping at straws now Dave...
>If we simply owed those people these things, it
>would not be charity, it would be paying debts and now you have made
the
>best parts of Western society a base matter of moral mortgaging. I
reject
>that concept as well, charity comes from the heart, if you owe, it
comes
>from the wallet.
>
THeres a difference in helping people with money or ???? If somwon
wants to give money instead of something else whats the harm?
>> So tell me, what's a "successful" person to you? Who would you
label a
>> "failure"?
>
>It honestly doesn't matter what I tell you, frankly I've descended to
far
>into cynicism to say too much about my personal ethics, because unless
my
>views line up with Hitler, I guarantee you I'll be accused of lying
and
>back-pedaling.
>
>David Fox
>
YOU lost it.You mentioned Adolf first.Oh well...another conservative
who cant reason, go figure :o)
HTH
~Prince SNuhwolf~
>
cat
<foxd...@hotmail.com> miaoued:
>"TygerMoon Foxx" <tyge...@paganportals.com> wrote in message
>news:glj9rus0fai8oc1kv...@4ax.com...
>Most people do not think epilepsy is contagious anymore than they believe
>Down syndrome is.
I have a friend who was subject to sudden onset grand mall
seizures and have seen and heard the responses of people during them.
Yes, there are still a lot who fear Epilepsy is contagious. Just like
they fear the air an AIDS victim breathes will pass the disease on to
them. Are they fools? Indeed they are, but there are still an awful
lot of them around.
>> I mean, we can't even respect the diversity present within the human
>> geonome; we're still tearing each other up over things as
>> insignificant as region of origin, sexual orientation, and skin color.
>
>I haven't yet been informed of any recent pogroms, or race riots resulting
>in black areas of town burned to rubble, nor have I noticed a systematic
>execution of gays nor people from specific regions in the US. As a matter of
>fact what I see is ordinary people walking on eggshells around minorities
>and the handicapped. The only stigma associated with them is the fear that
>you'll get arrested for a hate crime if something you say is taken wrong.
Recently there were a series of attacks on Gays in Hollywood.
One man was left in a coma. When finally apprehended the DA refused to
file the special Hate Crime circumstances. saying they were simple
robberies. Interestingly enough one of the suspects admitted that
their choices of victims was not based on money and that robbery had
been of secondary import. Still the DA refused to file special
circumstances. If such things do not get considered as hate crimes
here in the most liberal state (CA) in the most liberal town
(Hollywood) how much chance do others have in seeing them called that
in their areas?
>> I've
>> seen the reactions of folk when others wear their ears and tails in
>> public on an otherwise normal day;
>
>There are only two other groups coming to mind that wear ears and tails on a
>normal day: strippers and prostitutes. I wonder what reaction they get?
Zookeepers do in some zoos and many teachers use them in class
so there are 2 other groups to add to the list.Recently i was to an
animal shelter and the workers there wore them, too. so there is yet
another group who wears ears and tails. Who knows, it may be the start
of a fashion revolution. (it sure beats the return of codpieces)
cat
Luta Ariadt
...
> What a clueless fuck...Missoula is a university town and probably the
> most liberal town in the western half of Montana.Your argument is
> stupid because a gay guy was beat up for hugging his boyfriend in
> SoCal...not a backwards-ass-country-fuck type of area.
> Try again Dave :o)
Seconded. The demographics you (David) mention are rarely discreetly
geographic in this day & age. Have you ever seen the famous "red & blue"
map at a finer resolution, like % of popular vote per district? Watch
the colors blend... Heck, one of the most racists states in the Union is
Minnesota, especially the urbane Twin Cities area. It's everywhere.
--
Luta Ariadt
Ostrich
> seen the reactions of folk when others wear their ears and tails in
> those reactions would change for the better if the ears and tails were
> the genuine article rather than prosthetics.
>
I've worn ears and tail in public more than a few times. The reactions I
get are overwhelmingly positive. What people are responding to more often
than not is the attitude of the person wearing the tail. If you're having a
good time with it, they will too. If you're one of these persons (and I've
seen my share of them) who skulks sullenly about in the expectation that
someone's going to persecute them for wearing a tail, then people pick up on
that attitude and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you're acting
guilty or defensive, people will assume it's for a reason.
-Ostrich! <")
David Fox
> Seconded. The demographics you (David) mention are rarely discreetly
> geographic in this day & age.
Yes, they are. Snuh mentions a university town, welcome to the mainstream.
Gays beat in SoCal? Not all of southern California is like San Diego, not
all of California is the same as SF.
> Have you ever seen the famous "red & blue"
> map at a finer resolution, like % of popular vote per district? Watch
> the colors blend... Heck, one of the most racists states in the Union is
> Minnesota, especially the urbane Twin Cities area. It's everywhere.
Not sure where the red and blue map suddenly creates an argument that racism
tends to isolate itself into ever tighter enclaves, Mountain Home, Ark.
makes the case for it quite nicely.
David Fox
David Fox
> OK, fair enough, but do you judge actions and character on an absolute
scale
> or a relative one?
The scale is relatively absolute. In the end, except at the very far ends of
the spectrum, most peoples disabilities even out. One person may have a
speech problem, but another may be born into a neigborhood packed with gangs
and drug pushers. Even very good situations can be bad, what happens if you
have wealthy parents who refuse to pay for college? Their very existence
closed doors to financial aid. There are precious few people who have no
handicap in their lives, there are also precious few whose handicaps reduce
them to a complete inability to function.
> Do people who have obstacles to overcome but fail rate lower than people
who
> have no obstacles to overcome and, obviously, succeed?
You haven't failed until you stop trying. People who start wallowing in
their obstacles and turn lamenting their problems into the focus of their
lives have pretty much given up.
> If somebody has an obstacle, I find it is often unfair to judge them even
if
> they have failed to overcome it. Not being them, I can't say how hard
> they've tried or how hard the obstacle was.
You've got to make a judgement. Let's say you're going to hire a CFO. If
someone applied and their biggest achievement was that they had failed to
create a transnational wireless banking service, obviously the judgement
must fall on the individual obstacles within. How many bricks did he manage
to get out of the wall, as it were. Most obstacles are complex almagamations
of various smaller problems, how many of those smaller problems were solved,
which were unsolvable, how close did they come? But if you can't make a
judgement, that is very unfair to the people who try and the people who
succeed (especially if they were particularly clever or diplomatic), you
have to regard everyone's merits as equal, which they are obviously not. You
cannot draw meritorial (and thus moral) equivalences between shopkeepers and
robbers. You definitely cannot say that a person's background excuses the
robbery, anymore than you can say most disabilities excuse thinking of
yourself as a constant victim or that they give the person a moral
authority.
> But what is it you want them to "show you"? Is what you're looking for a
> fair and just standard by which to judge whether somebody is "someone
trying
> to milk emotions from people"?
The standard for milking is thus: the less you talk about "woe is me" topics
and the less you try to use your particular obstacle as a grab for simple
attention or pity, the less likely you are to be milking people for
emotions.
> Again, how do you know how hard hardships are to overcome?
It has nothing to do with hardships on this facet, it has to do with
attitude.
> You made the statement that "life is full of obstacles large and small, it
> is up to the individual to improve their lot". Who does this apply to?
Just about everyone.
> Obviously not one month old infants, at least, but what other exceptions
> exist, if any? Who "passes" and gets help, and who "fails" and doesn't?
Anyone can get help, so long as the helpers are not forced (externally), the
help just makes the helper all the better as a person. You can help the
hopeless and it doesn't reflect badly on you, you might just be spinning
your wheels, but your heart was in the right place and you didn't cause any
damage (I hope).
> Not exactly. If it's a case of thinking "if you knew, you'd agree", then
> yes, you're right, and that's making unqualified assumptions.
Which it tends to be.
> But I'm thinking "if you understood, you'd empathize", which is not the
same
> thing. I get the feeling that you don't empathize because you do not
> relate.
Working animal control, living as a minority, etc. has very little to do
with relating to a need to act like a perpetual victim. And even when I can
see that is an easy place to be if you think your life is shit, I still see
a thousand other people in your position who succeed anyway and that makes
me wonder whether it is not your obsession with your hopelessness that leads
to your hopelessness. Can you pity yourself, can you victim yourself, into
self-oppression?
> I've had personal experiences, just like everybody, but I've never
suffered
> like I've seen others suffer. I know my experiences mean nothing compared
> to theirs, so therfore I empathize as best I can.
You think your experiences mean nothing compared to theirs, but do you think
that if you looked at your life through a prism of oppression that your view
would change? If you started thinking in conspiratorial and occassionally
egotistical terms that the world was out to get you, would your life seem
hopeless, too? Would your experiences take on the look of desperation until
you degenerated into a spiral of ever more desperate acts? How long before
you justify theft from the oppressor behind the Quik-E-Mart counter? How
long till you don't pay your power bills because they're out to get you?
I know a guy in Denver who works with section 8 (government subsidized)
housing and he has horror stories. People who pay $20 total in rent but have
never touched a utility bill and completely destroyed an apartment. With an
eye to how the people with ruined lives seem to be constantly ruining their
lives it is hard to have pity or respect for them.
> I don't agree with many
> views of such people, but I can understand why they have them, and must
> admit that if I was in their place, I either would not have survived at
all
> or else probably would have adopted more similar beliefs to theirs.
But that does not mean that they are blameless in their lives or that they
do not own their failures. For an extreme example, empathize with a
Palestinian gunman who shoots an Israeli infant. Imagine the hardships in
his life, imagine his house was bulldozed. Tell me, did any of that give him
the moral authority to shoot a baby? Would it give him the moral authority
to bulldoze someone's house? How far do we let the standards of what is good
character slide based on hardship? Does any of that grant him moral
superiority?
> Hmm... sounds like a page strait from a Philosophy class on ethics. Fair
> enough. You tend towards Kant's view that we have an imperfect moral duty
> to sometimes help those in need (which retains the morally "good" value of
> giving and sacrifice), while rejecting a Utilitarian view that we have an
> absolute obligation (which says there is no morally "good" value to giving
> and sacrifice, but rather you simply *must* do them).
Very much so.
> There are people who really are smart, who really do care, who really are
> happy, and who really do give joy, hope, love, understanding,
encouragement,
> and purpose to the lives of others. As long as they exist, then cynicism
is
> just another lifestyle choice, and little more.
Precisely.
David Fox
David Fox
news:1103_10...@news.critter.net...
that
> there can't be major changes in short periods of time.
My point is that as the world has become better connected, as we have become
more informed (some say too informed), these shorter spans of time have
become more important. It used to take 100s of years to accomplish what we
can do in mere seconds. Nations used to rise and fall over the course of
dynasties, now countries are created and disappear in decades. What I'm
saying is that the importance of spans of time are relative to how quickly
information and people can move, it has been the spread of knowledge and
trade that moves history forward, these things take less time than ever, in
effect speeding up history. The Egyptian civilization lasted nearly 10,000
years, but it changed little over all that time by comparison to changes in
this country alone in the last 100.
> I did say, I think, that this discrimination has become more subtle. It
> doesn't always mean whites only drinking fountains or things of that
> nature. It's down to snide comments. It's down to "I don't want my
children
> to go to /that/ school because of all the blacks."
See in my opinion, that's simple racism, that isn't discrimination. Now if
she didn't want black children in her child's school and she acted on that
wish in a meaningful way, then it is discrimination. Racism you're never
going to truly get rid of, people don't like other people a lot of the time,
discrimination on the other hand is largely dead. Just because you hate
someone does not mean you have to act on it, it is discrimination when you
cross the line from hate to action.
David Fox
Claviarm
>I've worn ears and tail in public more than a few times. The reactions I
>get are overwhelmingly positive. What people are responding to more often
>than not is the attitude of the person wearing the tail. If you're having a
>good time with it, they will too. If you're one of these persons (and I've
>seen my share of them) who skulks sullenly about in the expectation that
>someone's going to persecute them for wearing a tail, then people pick up on
>that attitude and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you're acting
>guilty or defensive, people will assume it's for a reason.
*nodnod* My own experienced with public tail-wearing have been
similar. I've gotten nothing but positive comments. It's just
another lesson in the laws of sympathy...
--
Claviarm
Minister of Dessert, serving Prince Snuhwolf
ICQ 16521227
Eisenschwarz
super-scurry. Call out the troops now in a hurry! This is what we've
waited for.This is it boys, this is war. "David Fox"
<foxd...@hotmail.com> is on the line...
>> Again, how do you know how hard hardships are to overcome?
>
>It has nothing to do with hardships on this facet, it has to do with
>attitude.
That's A very _middle_ Class_ view Dav.
>> You made the statement that "life is full of obstacles large and small, it
>> is up to the individual to improve their lot". Who does this apply to?
>
>Just about everyone.
Also, very _middle_ Class_
>> Hmm... sounds like a page strait from a Philosophy class on ethics. Fair
>> enough. You tend towards Kant's view that we have an imperfect moral duty
>> to sometimes help those in need (which retains the morally "good" value of
>> giving and sacrifice), while rejecting a Utilitarian view that we have an
>> absolute obligation (which says there is no morally "good" value to giving
>> and sacrifice, but rather you simply *must* do them).
>
>Very much so.
No! No!
Morality is a purely human construct and should be told to go away.
--- Eisenschwarz ---
For more than a hundred centuries the Emperor has sat immobile on the Golden Throne of Earth.
He is the Master of Mankind by the will of the gods and master of a million worlds by the might of his inexhaustible armies.
He is a rotting carcass writhing invisibly with power from the Dark Age of Technology.
He is the Carrion Lord of the Imperium to whom a thousand souls are sacrificed every day.
Skytech
> Assuming that, in a furry form, you couldn't intelligibly speak
human
> languages, would you still be willing to change? For the sake of
> argument, human society at large remains predominantly human.
>
Though not apparent here, we vulpans don't speak human speech well.
Our muzzles are significantly puggier than real foxes so we don't form
all the proper phonetics. We do come close and can be understood but
it does give us our accent.
If we were to go a step further, no voicebox and longer muzzles, it
would mean developing a kind of sign language and creating sounds to
convey our needs that the human population could reasonable
understand. Not as unreasonable as it might be consitered. I knew a
human who was deaf but could produce some speech plus used body
language everyone could decipher after a little while.
And the answer is yes.
--
The Vigilant Fox
Skytech
^^
<@@>
.]
Skytech
> Converted furries would face a far worse problem than confused
> communication skills. That would be the least of their problems.
> They would likely be viewed as second class citizens in a best case
> scenario and as exotic pets or commodities in a worst case scenario.
> Society at large tends to discard the value of an animal life and
> regard them as tradeable commodities rather than living beings.
>
The supposition is it would be us being transformed. That means
history and connections in the world. I'd fear being taken into
'protective' custody by officials or the paranoia such transformations
would invoke in the population. I'd hope whatever country one lives in
is beyond treating intelligent beings as second class, slaves, or
lower animals.
--
The Vigilant Fox
Skytech
^^
<@@>
./
Skytech
that
> much attention to where it was (it was in my pre furry days).
>
National Public Radio did a show about why animals, especially
chimpanzees, don't 'speak'. With the 95% similarity between chimps and
humans, why don't chimps speak? It seems humans have a bit of genetic
hardwiring enabling them to intelligently develope speech and higher
communication.
If anthropomorphic beings were to exist, it may be assumed they have a
deposition towards creating speech and complex communication though it
may not be exactly like human forms.
>
> Putting aside technology there are still ways of communicating.
There is
> always the old 'yes' or 'no' response type of communication but that
can be
> difficult (ask anyone who's been in fursuit). A variety of
responses could
> be developed to mean various things. Lions and for that matter most
animal
> can generate a number of sounds. These could be keyed to have
certain
> meaning thus creating a kind of 'lion language'.
>
Remmber how well humans and dogs communicate even though neither
speaks the other's language, per se. Long association has led to each
having the ability to 'read' the other. I'd say this would be more
evident in an animal even more attuned to humans. Think Chewbacca and
Han.
--
The Vigilant Fox
Skytech
^^
<@@>
.]
Skytech
> Wow, that's a tough question. Why are people always trying to make
me
> think?!
We like you! Now drop and give me fifty mental pushups!
--
The Vigilant Fox
Skytech
^^
<@@>
.D
Snuhwolf
illegibly<hhgeru4itilpsvfd1...@4ax.com>:
>
> Zookeepers do in some zoos and many teachers use them in class
>so there are 2 other groups to add to the list.Recently i was to an
>animal shelter and the workers there wore them, too. so there is yet
>another group who wears ears and tails. Who knows, it may be the start
>of a fashion revolution. (it sure beats the return of codpieces)
>
>
> cat
>
<~PrinCe Snuhwolf~>
Luta Ariadt
...
> Not sure where the red and blue map suddenly creates an argument that racism
> tends to isolate itself into ever tighter enclaves, Mountain Home, Ark.
> makes the case for it quite nicely.
When you look at the map in a finer resolution it becomes a mottled
shade of purples, with no sharp geographic lines between political
groups. If you're talking tighter enclaves meaning individual homes I
agree, in fact some of them are my relatives' homes. But if you're
talking regions of the country, even individual cities I think any
isolated enclave of that scale would be rare. Of course I have only a
tourist's knowledge of most states.
--
Luta Ariadt
Elizabeth A. Johnson
"Smrgol -};>~" wrote:
> > Codpieces ROCK :o)
>
> I prefer salmon pieces myself ...
mmm... flounder...
*sings* well I lobster... and haven't flounder...
Avenging_Lioness (ack! evil commercial! out out!)
--
"I'm wet... I'm naked... your sister is wearing my clothes... and this
is all part of some evil plot TO RULE THE WORLD AS A SOGGY CHIMP IN HIS
BIRTHDAY SUIT?!?!?!?"
Smrgol -};>~
Luta Ariadt
We could do like they did in the Starfarer books, and have radio devices
implanted in our brains that directly transmit thoughts between each
other, and between people and the computer. Whenever anyone got a phone
call / email their eyes would just glaze over and they'd be in la la land.
--
Luta Ariadt
David Fox
news:ap7d3n$sbtts$1...@ID-137945.news.dfncis.de...
> Then let me change the tone a bit: Fuck off Dave :o)
> You are speaking from the POV of a person whos ineriting Daddy's
> Buisness,
Correction, my father's business will be divided and sold on his death by
the people who hold its stock (various family members).
> have no major health issues( asside from your terminal
> republicanism )
I'm not a Republican. I'm a registered independent who is about to vote for
Democratic sherriff, a Republican land-use commissioner, a Libertarian
governor, and neither Senate candidate. I'd vote Libertarian on the sheriff,
but the Demo promises to patrol my neighborhood (which despite your later
claim as "nice" is an area where cops seldom patrol at night and is home to
the longest serial window breakings in Boulder history).
> and enjoy a relatively easy lifestyle as a student in a
> part of the country that most people wpould rate as "nice".
I live on a shoestring budget with a busted car in an apartment that costs
$1 per square foot and barely squeak by each month, my credit is a train
wreck, and my parents want to know when I'm coming home. I work overtime
every week, I pay bills, I do little but work and sleep. I work at a gas
station in Boulder's ghetto district (the gas station has been robbed at
gunpoint twice in the past year) where I see many times more vatos, drug
runners, crack heads, meth fiends, meth producers, and violent drunks as I
see cops come in for coffee (and we even have donuts). I've had to stop a
knife fight, a domestic altercation, and convince a coke dealer to move her
operation down the street. But you know, it's easy, I keep it nice and
simple, not much happens. I run my show like a precision machined....
machine (no other word really comes to mind).
> The day you actually face real hardship...get back to us.Until then
> you're just another conservative brat with no "sympathy for those
> misfortuneates".
Hardship is all in the eye of the beholder. I don't think my lot is terribly
bad, but I meet people everyday that tell me its completely awful. I'm just
a little sad I don't get any more action at work.
David Fox
David Fox
> When you look at the map in a finer resolution it becomes a mottled
> shade of purples, with no sharp geographic lines between political
> groups.
I have the link to the county map with me right here, actually.
http://www.esri.com/mapmuseum/mapbook_gallery/volume16/business1.html
The distinctions are very sharp, actually, to the point where you can
actually see that it was mostly major urban centers voting for Gore.
> If you're talking tighter enclaves meaning individual homes I
> agree, in fact some of them are my relatives' homes. But if you're
> talking regions of the country, even individual cities I think any
> isolated enclave of that scale would be rare. Of course I have only a
> tourist's knowledge of most states.
Mountain Home, Arkansas is the city that had a sign stating "No N----- After
Dark," and only took it down in the early 90s when the state forced them to.
They are rare, which is why they are so tight and localized, that has long
been the problem cracking hate groups.
David Fox
cat
miaoued:
>Remmber how well humans and dogs communicate even though neither
>speaks the other's language, per se. Long association has led to each
>having the ability to 'read' the other. I'd say this would be more
>evident in an animal even more attuned to humans. Think Chewbacca and
>Han.
While both Han and Chewie could understand what the other said
(Chewie knew a few more languages than Han) it was Chewie's vocal
apparatus which did not permit "normal" speech. there were a few
"handicapped" beings of his race which could speak the non Wookie
languages but were unable to speak the language of their own species
due to "deformed" vocal apparatus. (from the Writer's Guide Q&A)
cat
Snuhwolf
illegibly<3DB8BBF0...@worldnet.att.net>:
>
>
>"Smrgol -};>~" wrote:
>
>> > Codpieces ROCK :o)
>>
>> I prefer salmon pieces myself ...
>
>mmm... flounder...
>
>*sings* well I lobster... and haven't flounder...
>
Naw...who wants to wear a fish down there....it already smells like
fish :o)
HTH
~Prince Snuhwolf~
Snuhwolf
illegibly<aparke$1mp$1...@raccoon.fur.com>:
>"Snuhwolf" <snuhwo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:ap7d3n$sbtts$1...@ID-137945.news.dfncis.de...
>> Then let me change the tone a bit: Fuck off Dave :o)
>> You are speaking from the POV of a person whos ineriting Daddy's
>> Buisness,
>
>Correction, my father's business will be divided and sold on his death
by
>the people who hold its stock (various family members).
>
None for you? I thought the family farm was "staying in the family".
Hmmmm....
>> have no major health issues( asside from your terminal
>> republicanism )
>
>I'm not a Republican. I'm a registered independent who is about to
vote for
>Democratic sherriff, a Republican land-use commissioner, a Libertarian
>governor, and neither Senate candidate. I'd vote Libertarian on the
sheriff,
>but the Demo promises to patrol my neighborhood (which despite your
later
>claim as "nice" is an area where cops seldom patrol at night and is
home to
>the longest serial window breakings in Boulder history).
>
Horror of horrors...you haven't had fun until you've lived in an ex-
crack house in an area inside the the city which it refuses to annex so
when you call the cops you get the sheriffs :o) Oh...and the helicopter
had us on its "normal route".LOL!
>> and enjoy a relatively easy lifestyle as a student in a
>> part of the country that most people wpould rate as "nice".
>
>I live on a shoestring budget with a busted car in an apartment that
costs
>$1 per square foot and barely squeak by each month, my credit is a
train
>wreck, and my parents want to know when I'm coming home. I work
overtime
>every week, I pay bills, I do little but work and sleep. I work at a
gas
>station in Boulder's ghetto district (the gas station has been robbed
at
>gunpoint twice in the past year) where I see many times more vatos,
drug
>runners, crack heads, meth fiends, meth producers, and violent drunks
as I
>see cops come in for coffee (and we even have donuts). I've had to
stop a
>knife fight, a domestic altercation, and convince a coke dealer to
move her
>operation down the street.
Ooooooh...aiding and abetting drug pushers...shame on you Dave...
>But you know, it's easy, I keep it nice and
>simple, not much happens. I run my show like a precision machined....
>machine (no other word really comes to mind).
>
Better move back home then if you're still going to college.Sounds like
your lifes in danger.
>> The day you actually face real hardship...get back to us.Until then
>> you're just another conservative brat with no "sympathy for those
>> misfortuneates".
>
>Hardship is all in the eye of the beholder. I don't think my lot is
terribly
>bad, but I meet people everyday that tell me its completely awful. I'm
just
>a little sad I don't get any more action at work.
>
>David Fox
>
o_0 Thats hard to believe that you'd want to experience a hold-up.Felt
suicidal lately?
~Prince Snuhwolf~
Luta Ariadt
> I have the link to the county map with me right here, actually.
>
> http://www.esri.com/mapmuseum/mapbook_gallery/volume16/business1.html
>
> The distinctions are very sharp, actually, to the point where you can
> actually see that it was mostly major urban centers voting for Gore.
You're right, the map I'm thinking of breaks down each voting district
by vote percentage: a 50% is purple, 100% republican is red, 100%
democrat is blue. What you see then is that, although there are reddish
and bluish regions, it's almost always a reddish or bluish shade of
purple. From that I surmise that such enclaves, if they exist, must be
smaller than a district in size, with the occasional exception, like
Mountain Home.
--
Luta Ariadt
David Fox
> None for you? I thought the family farm was "staying in the family".
> Hmmmm....
If not sold in the next ten years it is divided between my aunt and my
father, then sold.
> Ooooooh...aiding and abetting drug pushers...shame on you Dave...
Better than pissing one off.
> Better move back home then if you're still going to college.Sounds like
> your lifes in danger.
Everyone's life is in danger 24/7. It's all in how you look at it how bad it
is.
> o_0 Thats hard to believe that you'd want to experience a hold-up.Felt
> suicidal lately?
They hardly ever shoot anyone, they don't want the trouble, just sixty bucks
and a carton of Marlboros.
David Fox
Avatara Raki
> James Rau wrote:
> ...
> > Does anyone here remember the SF novel, The Architect of Sleep, by Stephen
> > Boyett? Came out in the early 1980s, I think. As I recall, the racoon
> > anthromorphs in that story had developed sign, rather than a spoken
> > language. The tables were turned somewhat on the human protagonist, as he
> > was the one who had to adapt to their way of "speaking."
>
> I've not read that one, but there's a good story by Ursula K. LeGuin
> about the body language poetry of animals.
>
> *searches brain for title... fails...*
'The Author of the Acacia Seeds' from 'The Compass Rose'
And... hello.
~Raki - self-styled Stirrer and Friend to Elves
Snuhwolf
illegibly<apd6gn$3q9$1...@raccoon.fur.com>:
>"Snuhwolf" <snuhwo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:apcmaq$chk0$2...@ID-137945.news.dfncis.de...
>> None for you? I thought the family farm was "staying in the family".
>> Hmmmm....
>
>If not sold in the next ten years it is divided between my aunt and my
>father, then sold.
>
You're sure dads gonna sell?
>> Ooooooh...aiding and abetting drug pushers...shame on you Dave...
>
>Better than pissing one off.
>
Only if they know you are the one ratting them out :O)
>> Better move back home then if you're still going to college.Sounds
like
>> your lifes in danger.
>
>Everyone's life is in danger 24/7. It's all in how you look at it how
bad it
>is.
>
Right....I'd say the homeless man living over a grate in NYC is at more
risk for mortality than the rich buisnessman living in some gated
community.In fact...Insurance companies have tons of statistics on that
very thing...they use it to calculate the price of life insurance.
HTH
>> o_0 Thats hard to believe that you'd want to experience a hold-
up.Felt
>> suicidal lately?
>
>They hardly ever shoot anyone, they don't want the trouble, just sixty
bucks
>and a carton of Marlboros.
>
HArdly ever /= never.I hope you find something less risky sooner than
later...I'd H8 to loose such a "good debater" ;O)
~Prince Snuhwolf~
Elizabeth A. Johnson
Grygon wrote:
> I too think I could get along just fine. I don't think I'd miss my pinky
> finger that much (assuming it'd go bye-bye like in all my alter-ego
> drawings) and writing and gesturing would suffice.
what if you lose your thumb instead? just because we like to draw our furries
with a thumb and three (or four fingers) doesn't necessarily mean RL furrs
would end up that way
Avenging_Lioness
Elizabeth A. Johnson
Luta Ariadt wrote:
> Looking at the way many people draw anthropomorphic beings, physically
> human/nonhuman hybrid, it looks like they'd have a lot of difficulty
> speaking human verbal languages. So, to add some detail to one of the
> furvey questions:
>
> Assuming that, in a furry form, you couldn't intelligibly speak human
> languages, would you still be willing to change? For the sake of
> argument, human society at large remains predominantly human.
I think I would. cats are very expressive in their varying vocalizations
and body language. I'd just have to teach everyone cat language. =^.^=
Elizabeth A. Johnson
Snuhwolf wrote:
> Elizabeth A. Johnson <lizo...@worldnet.att.net> scribbled
> illegibly<3DB8BBF0...@worldnet.att.net>:
>
> Naw...who wants to wear a fish down there....it already smells like
> fish :o)
o.O then someone obviously has a problem.
Avenging_Lioness
Luta Ariadt
>
> Luta Ariadt wrote:
>
>
>>Looking at the way many people draw anthropomorphic beings, physically
>>human/nonhuman hybrid, it looks like they'd have a lot of difficulty
>>speaking human verbal languages. So, to add some detail to one of the
>>furvey questions:
>>
>>Assuming that, in a furry form, you couldn't intelligibly speak human
>>languages, would you still be willing to change? For the sake of
>>argument, human society at large remains predominantly human.
>
>
> I think I would. cats are very expressive in their varying vocalizations
> and body language. I'd just have to teach everyone cat language. =^.^=
That's another problem... we'd all have our "species" languages, but
they'd not likely be all the same, either. Different tails bend in
different ways, some have ears & some don't, vocalizations are quite
different, etc. We'd need some sort of furry interlingua. Hmmm...
--
Luta Ariadt
Snuhwolf
>
>
>Snuhwolf wrote:
>
>> Elizabeth A. Johnson <lizo...@worldnet.att.net> scribbled
>> illegibly<3DB8BBF0...@worldnet.att.net>:
>>
>> Naw...who wants to wear a fish down there....it already smells like
>> fish :o)
>
>o.O then someone obviously has a problem.
>
Now you know why they called it a 'cod' piece.
FYI
:O)
~PrinCE Snuhwolf~
Kevin O.
:P
KO
Elizabeth A. Johnson
Luta Ariadt wrote:
I can see a universal furry language based on a few consonants, a few vowel
sounds, and rising and falling intonation. it's more than what some human
languages have.
Luta Ariadt
> I can see a universal furry language based on a few consonants, a few vowel
> sounds, and rising and falling intonation. it's more than what some human
> languages have.
Cool idea.
If nothing else we could blink at each other in Morse Code.
--
Luta Ariadt
now every .sig comes with a free fur code inside!
FDD5a C- D H M P+ R+++ T+++ S? RLCT a cl++++$ e++ f++++ h- i+ p- sm#
Dennis Lee Bieber
November 2002 07:12 pm:
>
> I can see a universal furry language based on a few consonants, a few
> vowel
> sounds, and rising and falling intonation. it's more than what some
> human languages have.
>
Oh, just what I need... a musical language, and this wolf can't
sing... (you do not want to here me do do-re-mi... I did that once
against a chromatic tuner -- my do-re-mi covered just over 1.5 octaves,
and none of the notes was on key [any key]). Some songs on the radio
which I try to sing along with have places where they go up... and I
suddenly /drop/ an octave or so... (modulo wrap?)
--
> ============================================================== <
> wlf...@ix.netcom.com | Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber KD6MOG <
> wulf...@dm.net | Bestiaria Support Staff <
> ============================================================== <
> Bestiaria Home Page: http://www.beastie.dm.net/ <
> Home Page: http://www.dm.net/~wulfraed/ <
Elizabeth A. Johnson
Luta Ariadt wrote:
> Elizabeth A. Johnson wrote:
>
> > I can see a universal furry language based on a few consonants, a few vowel
> > sounds, and rising and falling intonation. it's more than what some human
> > languages have.
>
> Cool idea.
>
> If nothing else we could blink at each other in Morse Code.
ROTFLMTO!!! :D Let's hope it doesn't come to that... can you imagine if we
got in an argument?
Luta Ariadt
>
> Luta Ariadt wrote:
>
>
>>Elizabeth A. Johnson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I can see a universal furry language based on a few consonants, a few vowel
>>>sounds, and rising and falling intonation. it's more than what some human
>>>languages have.
>>
>>Cool idea.
>>
>>If nothing else we could blink at each other in Morse Code.
>
>
> ROTFLMTO!!! :D Let's hope it doesn't come to that... can you imagine if we
> got in an argument?
Eyelid strain!
cat
<luta_...@yahoo.com> miaoued:
>Elizabeth A. Johnson wrote:
>
>> I can see a universal furry language based on a few consonants, a few vowel
>> sounds, and rising and falling intonation. it's more than what some human
>> languages have.
>
>Cool idea.
>
>If nothing else we could blink at each other in Morse Code.
Remember the Boy Scouts.. Tail Semaphore!
cat
Kamau
news:b5p9su8du65kjdq0l...@4ax.com...
> >If nothing else we could blink at each other in Morse Code.
>
talks just that way.
> Remember the Boy Scouts.. Tail Semaphore!
>
Hmm, wouldn't that work only if we had two tails?
*grin*
We could always use ear in place of flags.
Kamau
Luke Anders
<luta_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Elizabeth A. Johnson wrote:
>
>> I can see a universal furry language based on a few consonants, a few
>>vowel sounds, and rising and falling intonation. it's more than what
>>some human languages have.
>
>Cool idea.
>
>If nothing else we could blink at each other in Morse Code.
Two eyelids. Binary!
Locandez
--
How many bored border collies could a bored public school
boarder hoard if a bored public school boarder was bordering
on hoarding bored border collies?
Furry links: www.yiffle.com/all/
Mephit, Floyd
news:aq5vt1$qp5$1...@raccoon.fur.com:
>
>> Remember the Boy Scouts.. Tail Semaphore!
>>
> Hmm, wouldn't that work only if we had two tails?
> *grin*
> We could always use ear in place of flags.
>
> Kamau
>
>
>
I saw on Discovery that kangaroos talk to each other via their ear-
twitches. Maybe they're onto something..
-f.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Floyd the Mephit, Galveston, TX
FMS4admsw/F6as A- C++ D H+ M+ P R+ T++ W Z+ Sm+ RLMH/S a23 cdn++ d e++
f h- i++ j+ p sm++
email: floydskunkAThotmail.com, ICQ# 100483312, ph# 225-205-4295
Southern Furs! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/southern_furs/
Je me parle! http://www.livejournal.com/users/floyd_mephit
Mephit, Floyd
news:na.91bd114b8f....@mydomainname.com:
>>Cool idea.
>>
>>If nothing else we could blink at each other in Morse Code.
>
> Two eyelids. Binary!
>
>
>
> Locandez
>
>
With two eyes there'd be 4 possible states. That's all DNA needs (sort
of) to communicate..
CT
> "Kamau" <jc2b...@hyena.taconic.net> a dit a
> news:aq5vt1$qp5$1...@raccoon.fur.com:
[talking about nonverbal communication]
>> We could always use ear in place of flags.
>
> I saw on Discovery that kangaroos talk to each other via their ear-
> twitches. Maybe they're onto something..
Not every creature has external mobile ears, though. Birds and
reptiles, as 2 examples that come to mind off-paw, would be hard-
pressed to communicate without the functional equivalent of humanity's
vocal cords. Those with external ears that aren't very mobile (like,
for example, bear ears *waves to Harry*) would also have trouble
communicating via ear motions.
CT, who's ideal self is without those ugly airbrakes to either side of
his head >;-)
--
DC2.Dw Gm L72f W-- T Skl C"tiger-like" Bfl A(rv+) Fr++ M-- H+ $ Fo R++
Ac++ J S I-- V Q--- Tc+ E
FDD5ms A- C- D H- M+ P- R++ T W Z- Sm# RLRB a cdn++ d- e f h+ iw++ j+
p- sm-
Luta Ariadt
> Luke Anders <Loca...@mydomainname.com> a dit a
> news:na.91bd114b8f....@mydomainname.com:
>
>
>>>Cool idea.
>>>
>>>If nothing else we could blink at each other in Morse Code.
>>
>> Two eyelids. Binary!
>>
>>
>>
>>Locandez
>>
>>
>
>
> With two eyes there'd be 4 possible states. That's all DNA needs (sort
> of) to communicate..
There'd be issues with that, though. Unless you used one symbol (like
both eyes open) as a separator, people would have timing difficulties
with long strings of the same symbol -- is that four left-eye closed or
five? You'd have to use some sort of encoding like 4B/5B that prevents
such things. Or, you could change the timing, use both-eyes-open for
half the duration as a separator, and keep it as a message symbol as well.
Yes, I did pay attention in my networks class. How can you tell?
Mephit, Floyd
news:aq7frr$s4i$1...@raccoon.fur.com:
>>>
>>
>>
>> With two eyes there'd be 4 possible states. That's all DNA needs
>> (sort of) to communicate..
>
> There'd be issues with that, though. Unless you used one symbol
> (like both eyes open) as a separator, people would have timing
> difficulties with long strings of the same symbol -- is that four
> left-eye closed or five? You'd have to use some sort of encoding
> like 4B/5B that prevents such things. Or, you could change the
> timing, use both-eyes-open for half the duration as a separator, and
> keep it as a message symbol as well.
>
Maybe use a non-eye-related indicator as a spacer? nose-twitch, ear-
twitch, sneeze-fart-yawn-jump-tic? Conversations would be short (but
not sweet)..
Elizabeth A. Johnson
Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> Elizabeth A. Johnson fed this fish to the penguins on Saturday 02
> November 2002 07:12 pm:
>
> >
> > I can see a universal furry language based on a few consonants, a few
> > vowel
> > sounds, and rising and falling intonation. it's more than what some
> > human languages have.
> >
> Oh, just what I need... a musical language, and this wolf can't
> sing... (you do not want to here me do do-re-mi... I did that once
> against a chromatic tuner -- my do-re-mi covered just over 1.5 octaves,
> and none of the notes was on key [any key]). Some songs on the radio
> which I try to sing along with have places where they go up... and I
> suddenly /drop/ an octave or so... (modulo wrap?)
ah, but each language has it's own unique music. we already have rising
and falling tone. it doesn't always mean something. but it does at the
end of a question. it's how we mark a sentence as a question, nyo?
some languages have rising or falling tone within a word. so, maAH, maah,
and MAah would all mean something different. and you can have high to
medium, high to low, medium to high, low to high, medium to low, and a
constant tonality in all three pitches. it's not like you'd have to be
able to carry a tune. :P
Luta Ariadt
> ah, but each language has it's own unique music. we already have rising
> and falling tone. it doesn't always mean something. but it does at the
> end of a question. it's how we mark a sentence as a question, nyo?
>
> some languages have rising or falling tone within a word. so, maAH,
maah,
> and MAah would all mean something different. and you can have high to
> medium, high to low, medium to high, low to high, medium to low, and a
> constant tonality in all three pitches. it's not like you'd have to be
> able to carry a tune. :P
I remember reading something about how people who speak languages like
that natively have a much higher preponderance of perfect pitch than
more atonal languages. It makes me wonder how much of our thoughts are
shaped by the languages we speak. I know the language I *code* in makes
a huge difference to how I express ideas there.