Snowie 4 Release!
SnowieGroup Info
We are proud to announce a new version of Snowie! Snowie 4 is available now.
Take advantage of the upgrade price if you already own a previous Snowie
version (half of the full price) and order at
http://www.bgsnowie.com/howtobuy/howtobuy.dhtml. The CD will be sent to you
immediately.
You may find more information about the best Backgammon program in the world
below or at http://www.bgsnowie.com.
Lucky rolls,
Olivier Egger
Johannes Levermann
SnowieGroup SA
Why is Snowie 4 better than Snowie 3?
Strongly improved playing engine
Based on a new learning technology Snowie 4 is way stronger than Snowie 3.
Here are simulation results between Snowie 4 and Snowie 3 in money games:
Snowie 4 1-Ply vs. Snowie 3 1-Ply: +0.039 pts/game.
Snowie 4 2-Ply vs. Snowie 3 2-Ply: +0.048 pts/game.
Snowie 4 3-Ply vs. Snowie 3 3-Ply: +0.033 pts/game.
In addition Snowie 4 plays backgames and priming battles much better and so
it can not be tricked into situations that it doesn't understand.
Table Stakes
Snowie 4 is capable of analyzing table stakes situations. On TrueMoneygames
(http://www.truemoneygames.com) you can play backgammon for real money using
table stakes. It is now possible to analyze these sessions with the new
Snowie.
Simplified User Interface
The user interface has been simplified. Advanced options are still available
but are more hidden in the application. That means that Snowie has become an
easy-to-use application for everybody but stays with all the advanced
options for the professional players.
Improved Graphics
All the graphics of the application have been redesigned. 3d boards and a
new look of the application makes it more modern.
Simplified registration procedure
The registration procedure is a simple click for people having Internet
access. There is an automatic connection to our server and the copy
registers itself.
Articles about Snowie 4
To read Snowie 4 articles by Johannes Levermann go to
http://www.bgsnowie.com/backgammon/articles.dhtml
FRANK
Mogath3
>
>
Gregg Cattanach
boring.
Gregg C.
"Mogath3" <mog...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021005002924...@mb-cc.aol.com...
Mogath3
>boring.
>
>Gregg C.
Has nothing to do with bitterness, just reality and the reality is I find it
way WAY too overpriced. For a backgammon program??? Please. This is a tired
arguement that I've had here before and I really could care less what people
think, so stop being so damn self righteous. Don't tell me that if someone GAVE
you a copy of Snowie 4 you wouldn't take it. Yeah, okay. Imagine that. I'm not
saying going and looking for it. Sure I WON'T buy it. Simply because that's
just a LITTLE much for a backgammon program, I'd probably go 150 TOPS, but if
someone offered me a full version of Snowie 4 for free, yeah I'd take it.
Someone gave me a full version of Snowie 3 for free and I took that. If that
makes me a bad guy, then I guess that's what I am, but don't pretend you
wouldn't do the same thing. I hardly think so.
davout
this much on blind faith?!? Join the 21st century!
"Gregg Cattanach" <gcattana...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:KiBn9.452$B07...@newssvr19.news.prodigy.com...
Albert Silver
Why would you presume he would take something that was stolen?
"Gee, here take this car radio for free. Free! Don't pay me a cent! I
ripped it off a store nearby." Uh-huh.
Albert Silver
Frank
is a poor product, just because it would be stealing someone's
intellectual property.
I paid $380 for Snowie 3 Pro, which makes me an idiot in the opinion of
some (who want everything for free and would take stolen merchandise if
proferred).
I, as a consumer, (not a thief), just think Snowie 4 doesn't offer enough
improvement over Snowie 3 to justify the $180 upgrade price, IMO.
If I was a major tourney player, or played Backgammon for high stakes, I
probably would get Snowie 4, because $180 is small potatoes if Snowie 4
could teach me something no other bot could.
In fact, I might just upgrade to Snowie 4, why not?
If I over pay...who cares...at least I PAID!
Frank
In article <f9846eb9.02100...@posting.google.com>,
silver...@hotmail.com says...
Derek Ray
Frank <fxmaz...@yahoo.com> mumbled something about:
>I wouldn't take Snowie 4 if it was offered to me for free. Not because it
>is a poor product, just because it would be stealing someone's
>intellectual property.
>
>I paid $380 for Snowie 3 Pro, which makes me an idiot in the opinion of
>some (who want everything for free and would take stolen merchandise if
>proferred).
>
>I, as a consumer, (not a thief), just think Snowie 4 doesn't offer enough
>improvement over Snowie 3 to justify the $180 upgrade price, IMO.
>
>If I was a major tourney player, or played Backgammon for high stakes, I
>probably would get Snowie 4, because $180 is small potatoes if Snowie 4
>could teach me something no other bot could.
>
>In fact, I might just upgrade to Snowie 4, why not?
>
>If I over pay...who cares...at least I PAID!
The more fool you, then. I'll use gnubg, which is free and offers
almost an identical set of features to Snowie -- and I will remain well
within the limits of the law. Bragging about overpaying is the mark of
a fish.
The very good is always the chief enemy of the best. Oasya hasn't
learned this, apparently -- you'd think that the Microsoft v. Netscape
debacle would have pounded this into people's heads by now. Netscape
was doomed from the start, because Microsoft could afford to take the
loss distributing Internet Explorer for free while catching up to
Netscape technically -- and once the difference in quality was close
enough, Netscape was dead despite being a superior product. Gnubg isn't
aggressively competing for Oasya's customers in the same fashion, but
the simple existence of a free alternative is enough -- I notice we
haven't had any postings here saying "Just got the new Snowie, and it's
GREAT!" I am not surprised.
You yourself admit this -- Snowie 4 simply isn't enough improvement to
justify such a ridiculous upgrade price. I haven't the slightest idea,
myself, since as someone else points out, there IS no demo version. Pay
$400 for a program sight unseen? Don't think so.
There will be no Snowie 5.
-- Derek
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge."
- C. Darwin, 1871
Mogath3
>
>"Gee, here take this car radio for free. Free! Don't pay me a cent! I
>ripped it off a store nearby." Uh-huh.
And you take it to the extreme thereby totally missing the point. Heheheh.
Mogath3
>I paid $380 for Snowie 3 Pro, which makes me an idiot in the opinion of
>some (who want everything for free and would take stolen merchandise if
>proferred).
>
Yeah, pretty much, but better you than me. *I* got mine for free. Someone
offered it to me for as a favor. I didn't have it and wanted it, but simply
couldn't justify spending close to four hundred dollars for it, so yeah, I took
it. Mine WAS free. Same program as yours with all the same features only mine
was and is better. It didn't lighten my wallet by four hundred dollars like
yours did. Like I said before, better you than me.
Cheers
Mogath3
>almost an identical set of features to Snowie -- and I will remain well
>within the limits of the law. Bragging about overpaying is the mark of
>a fish.
EXACTLY!! With gnubg being as good as it is, it doesn't make sense to go the
Snowie. Whats that saying about a fool and his money?? Heheheh!
Jim Segrave
I find the upset over the pricing of Snowie a bit hard to
follow. Anyone who understands the actual costs of programmer time and
support will know that a product as complex both to develop and to use
will be very expensive to produce and to support. I've seen figures
quoted that suggest sales in the low thousands. Let's assume it's 3000
copies and that almost all of these are the professional version. That
would be a gross income of just under USD 1.2 million. There have been
several upgrades with a not insignificant price attached. For
argument's sake let's assume that that adds another 50% to the gross
revenue, we'll round up and call it USD 2 million. Sounds like a lot,
but...
From an interview of Olivier Egger I recently read, there are at least
3 senior programmers involved. The company has been going since
1998. It's based in Switzerland.
1: programmers aren't cheap. 3 to 4 years of being in business will
have taken a huge bite of that $2 million for salaries.
2: comments I have seen suggest that the company provides a reasonable
level of support for their customers. Support costs real
money. Realistic costs could well be (from my experience in other
businesses where support is an issue) abut USD 10 per phone
call, letter or e-mail answered.
3: I believe that business taxes in Switzerland are (by US standards
at least) very high.
Comparisions such as the recent one between Netscape/Internet Explorer
are totally irrelevant in this context. Those are mass-market software
products with whole distribution and support chains, linked in to
other products. If you ship a million copies of a product, then if
each customer pays 2 bucks of the price towards your development, you
have the estimated gross income for Snowie since day 0. Both Netscape
and Windows with IE shipped in the 10s to 100s of millions.
I think readers are trying to judge the business model of a very niche
market product based on their experiences with current mass market
software. They are two different worlds with two different sets of
rules. If backgammon suddenly has a huge resurgence in popularity,
things might change and selling Snowie at 50 bucks a pop might be the
way to optimise the returns.
So, do I think that the price for Snowie or the upgrade price is too
high? I don't know. I'm sure the company isn't getting rich off this
product. There might be a more optimal return if they could sell lots
more copies by lowering the price. But anyone who isn't directly
involved in a company marketing backgammon software is probably
speculating at the relationship between price and unit sales.
Is USD 380 too much to pay in any case? I think it depends on what you
want such a program for. If you're a casual player who wants a way to
improve their game on their own time, probably yes. If you are a
serious player, either by profession or simple interest in the game,
then I think probably not.
Why are people so upset over the price? I've seen several questions
about where to get deluxe bakgammon sets, some of which run well over
the USD 1000 mark. I don't see postings calling these people fools for
contemplating buing such a board, or for having done so, Afer all,
they could go to the nearest B&Q and get some plywood, hinges, a
couple of tins of paint and make their own board for under ten
bucks. The same criteria apply for Snowie as for boards, both are
works of craftsmanship by skilled workers which bring pleasure to the
purchaser. Snowie also is a tool for learning and practising, although
it's probably less decorative.
Does gnubg make the whole question moot? Not really. It gives the
casual player or the serious amateur with a limited budget a very
attractive option. But if I were in the seriously interested category,
I would think that buying the one and downloading the other would
probably be almost a requirement. There are known weaknesses in
bot play which result, inter-alia, from the differnces in the
neural nets. The very fact that there are positions which have very
different evaluations suggests that having several world-class bots to
consult is a very good idea.
Is Snowie 4 significantly stronger than gnubg? I doubt that anyone
knows - Snowie 4 is just out and gnubg changes almost every week. Not
all the changes affect the playing behaviour, but many of them do, so
comparisions done a month ago are suspect, ones done three months ago
have almost no meaning at all.
My last observation is that, if I were offered a pirate copy of
Snowie, I would not accept it, as that is theft, plain and simple.
--
--
Jim Segrave j...@jes-2.demon.nl
Albert Silver
Is that a fact? They 'offered' it to you? How generous! Here is a
direct quote of yours on this 'offer' BTW:
-------------------------------------------------------
Message 22 in thread
From: Mogath3 (mog...@aol.com)
Subject: Re: One small problem I have with this group
View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.games.backgammon
Date: 2001-04-11 09:04:08 PST
>>I am wondering whether snowie is cheating or not.
>>
If you're that concerned if Snowie is cheating, use the manual dice
option.
SPEAKING of Snowie, I have FINALLY found the FULL Professional version
and
downloaded it. Nice program. GREAT program, but worth four hundred
dollars?
Nope. I'd have paid about one hundred for it, MAYBE, but because I got
it for
FREE, I don't have to pay for it at all. So you SAPS that gave OAYSA
your
money, you deserved it. I just hope you got kissed. Heheheh!
Regards,
Jeff
-------------------------------------------------
Mogath3
>direct quote of yours on this 'offer' BTW:
>
Yes, and so what?? Not that I have any explainations to make to you or anyone
else, but I did someone a favor that was looking for some chess software. I
emailed him a backup copy of Fritz 6. He asked me if there was any game
programs I wouldn't mind having and he mentioned he had Snowie. I told him I'd
be interested in having that one, so YES it was OFFERED. I took it. In return
he gave me his webpage address and I got Snowie. What's your point? Take your
hat off and maybe then I'll be able to see it.
Warwick
worth what it costs to make, but in fact what you can sell it for after you
have made it.
The relationship between price and demand is well understood (I assume
supply is unlimited, it aint hard to burn cd's) and readily explains the
poor sales figures, does it not?
I'd guess tho that Oasya are not the first or the last company to
overestimate either the size of the backgammon playing community, or its
willingness to pay.
Cheers
Warwick
"Jim Segrave" <j...@nl.demon.net> wrote in message
news:uq0o8gb...@corp.supernews.com...
Murat Kalinyaprak
Jim Segrave wrote uq0o8gb...@corp.supernews.com
Hi Jim,
Your article makes quite worthy arguments but I would like to
differ on some of them and add my own humbele comments...
> Let's assume it's 3000 copies and that almost all of these
> are the professional version. That would be a gross income
> of just under USD 1.2 million..... we'll round up and call it
> USD 2 million. Sounds like a lot, but...
Not just sounds like it but $2,000,000 is indeed a lot of money!!
> From an interview of Olivier Egger I recently read,
Where...? I would be curious to read it also.
> there are at least 3 senior programmers involved. The company
> has been going since 1998. It's based in Switzerland.
> 1: programmers aren't cheap. 3 to 4 years of being in business
> will have taken a huge bite of that $2 million for salaries.
Programmers aren't as expensive as they used to be... Even 16
year old kids produce some incredible software nowadays... A
senior programmer may cost $30-60K depending on where they
live, but they don't have to live in Switzerland...
I used to have my web pages hosted by a local company here in
my town but recently I switched to a Miami/FL. based company,
that employs "cheap" programmers in Europe and runs "cheap"
physical servers in Hang Kong...
But all this is not really as important as how much those 3-senior
programmers spent on SW... If you'll say that they spent 8-hours
a day for 2-3 years on SW alone, I'll just have to laugh. Sorry... :((
In America we only pay people in proportion to what they produce.
Maybe things are a little different in semi-communist European-
countries...? :))
> 2: comments I have seen suggest that the company provides a
> reasonable level of support for their customers. Support costs
> real money. Realistic costs could well be (from my experience
> in other businesses where support is an issue) abut USD 10
> per phone call, letter or e-mail answered.
Depends on who answers the phone calls, but sounds like a little
exaggerated; and surely exaggerated in the case of "by e-mail
support"...
> 3: I believe that business taxes in Switzerland are (by US standards
> at least) very high.
This is amuzing... Are you asking Americans and Mongolians to pay
Switzerland taxes...??? Hah hahhh.... :))
> Is USD 380 too much to pay in any case? I think it depends on what
> you want such a program for. If you're a casual player who wants a
> way to improve their game on their own time, probably yes. If you are
> a serious player, either by profession or simple interest in the game,
> then I think probably not.
I don't know what you mean by "serious player" but a "professional
player" is surely a "gambler", no...?
I have been offered many times in this newsgroup by many "gamblers"
$250-300 per 25-point match, etc... So, apparently $300-400 is not
much for those people and SW is trying to appeal to them...
As time goes by, I understand Patti's expression "incestuous circle"
better and better... It does seem indeed like a handfull of incestuous
people screwing each other around and around... :))
> I've seen several questions about where to get deluxe bakgammon
> sets, some of which run well over the USD 1000 mark.
The difference is that you can't copy a hand-made backgammon set
or duplicate it in a cd-burner... Each physical set consumes precious
labor and materials, unlike duplicating software on a $0.25 cd and in
less than 1-3 minutes...!!!
This is sweet profit, easy money, in fact almost free money...
> Does gnubg make the whole question moot? Not really. It gives the
> casual player or the serious amateur with a limited budget a very
> attractive option. But if I were in the seriously interested category,
> I would think that buying the one and downloading the other would
> probably be almost a requirement. There are known weaknesses in
> bot play which result, inter-alia, from the differnces in the neural nets.
> The very fact that there are positions which have very different
> evaluations suggests that having several world-class bots to
> consult is a very good idea.
I disagree... No human can live long enough to take advantage of the
minute (not necessarily that either and/or both are correct or that they
can understand/retain/remember) differences between those robots...
I have no sympathy for gnudung because I think it's a cheating scum
based on JF that lost to SW...
I have no sympathy for SW either because I never got an answer to
any of my questions about it by the "SW-team" or their ass-kissers...
One or two replies ("not! answers") were enough to make me think
that they were spoiled-arrogant bastards at the least...
I believe that sooner or later the "gnudung-team" will admit to its
cheating by arguing that "...yes, but it wasn't sex..." And if I had to
choose between SW and gnudung, I would still choose gnudung...
Aside from being an illogically/misteriously :) cheating piece of
scum, gnudung has the potential to put Snowie out of its misery...!!
You know what, the day I'll see gnudung trash snowie, I will forgive
the "s... b..." :)) Go get them "s... b..."... I'am all behind you on
this...
> My last observation is that, if I were offered a pirate copy of
> Snowie, I would not accept it, as that is theft, plain and simple.
I wouldn't either, simply because I just simply don't give a shit
about whatever Snowie may be... :))
MK
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Ric
alas...
Ric
"Jim Segrave" <j...@nl.demon.net> wrote in message
news:uq0o8gb...@corp.supernews.com...
>
Albert Silver
Ok, thanks for the clarification. I hadn't understood that you offered
a stolen product first, and had mistakenly only judged you a thief,
and not a fence as well.
Albert
Hugh McNeil
> >Take your bitterness over the price of Snowie elsewhere. It is really
> >boring.
> >
> >Gregg C.
>
> Has nothing to do with bitterness, just reality and the reality is I find
it
> way WAY too overpriced. For a backgammon program???
You find $380 overpriced? For $380 you get to play one of the very best
players in the world for as long as you want, and that player then points
out your mistakes.
How much would it cost you just to play a locally strong bg player (who
likely plays quite a bit worse)? Quite a bit more, me thinks.
And it is my understanding that if you don't want to learn about your
errors, it only costs you ~$30. That $30 lets you play 24/7 against one of
the strongest opponents in the world, and by all accounts, the strongest
bots
in the world (unless some defence agency somewhere has a stronger version
which is currently busy conducting the war against the bad guys...).
Vladimir Kuznetsov
Here is a reply to Mogath:
How mach do you make an hour? Without any attempt to offend
your feelings let's put $7/hour.
How much is Snowie worth in your opinion? Let's be generous and put $70.
From these two numbers I assume that you can do this program
by spending 10 hours of your own time. What? You cannot? Then your only
choice is to try to negotiate with this guys, who created Snowie. If
their price seems unfair to you do not buy it. Is not it trivial?
In my opinion you have no right to dictate them what price to ask.
None.
And if you seriously think that you are entitled to steel this program
then again in my opinion, you are anordinary small time crook.
vlad
In article <ZJjo9.485$Iw5....@news20.bellglobal.com>,
Mogath3
>a stolen product first, and had mistakenly only judged you a thief,
>and not a fence as well.
>
> Albert
>
So now I'm a thief. Heheh! You people with your self righteous attitudes about
software copying are really something else.
Cheers
Mogath3
>players in the world for as long as you want, and that player then points
>out your mistakes.
So does GNUBG for ummmm FREE??
>How much would it cost you just to play a locally strong bg player (who
>likely plays quite a bit worse)? Quite a bit more, me thinks.
Ummm, I think that would be free too. Read: GNUBG
You can try to justify the price of Snowie to me all you want. You have your
opinion and I have mine. *I* think it's over priced by a long shot. You don't.
I will agree to disagree with you and leave it at that.
Regards,
Jeff
Mogath3
>then again in my opinion, you are anordinary small time crook.
>
> vlad
And thats your opinion and you're entitled to it. Again, as I said in a
previous post you will never be able to justify to me why they can charge so
much. I don't care why they charge so much. *I* don't have to pay for it, *I*
won't pay for it and I may NEVER use it. Because I said that I'd take it for
free deems me a "small time crook". Hehehhe! Well, then, I guess that's what
that means. It's just AWFUL funny how when I announced that I had received
Snowie 3 for free my mailbox was inundated with requests for me to send it to
them and I just WISH I would have kept all those requests. I'd post them here
and you can see for yourself just how many "thieves" and "small time crooks"
are out there. What a joke.
Cheers
Albert Silver
> >Ok, thanks for the clarification. I hadn't understood that you offered
> >a stolen product first, and had mistakenly only judged you a thief,
> >and not a fence as well.
> >
>
> Heheh! You people with your self righteous attitudes about
> software copying are really something else.
>
> Cheers
Not at all. You think that the fact that it has a high price tag
entitles you to copy and distribute it at will, instead of using less
expensive (free) options. That's like saying you stole a Ferrari
instead of getting a Ford, because the Ferrari is overpriced. Argue it
as you like, but people working very hard put together that amazing
program, and you're just ripping them off.
Albert
Albert Silver
And you believe that because there are other thieves and small-time
crooks, that makes you less of one? What a joke.
Albert
Jive Dadson
backgammon engine with the old user interface?
J.
Jive Dadson
>
> >Take your bitterness over the price of Snowie elsewhere. It is really
> >boring.
> >
> >Gregg C.
>
> Has nothing to do with bitterness, just reality and the reality is I find it
> way WAY too overpriced.
For you. So don't buy it. I tried an evaluation copy, decided it was
worth the money, and I bought it. I am happy with it. Well, version 3
at least.
> ... I'd probably go 150 TOPS, but if
> someone offered me a full version of Snowie 4 for free, yeah I'd take it.
But would you steal it?
Jive Dadson
>
>...
> A senior programmer may cost $30-60K depending on where they
> live, but they don't have to live in Switzerland...
Thank goodness this guy is off by a factor of two or three. Not about
living in Switzerland. About the pay.
Jive (Senior Programmer) Dadson
Murat Kalinyaprak
Ric wrote T0fo9.16551$m92.3...@news1.news.adelphia.net
> In a rational world, your well-reasoned post would settle the issue.
> But alas...
Ric,
First of all, let me start by thanking you for your immense contribution
to backgammon by one-liner horse-shit like your above posting...
And as an effort to do my share of contributing: "Did you know that
horse-shit is less digested than bull-shit"...??
Yes, it is true... Horses need 2 to 3 times more pasture than cows...
Be it may unrelated to backgammon; at least this provides a trivial
bit of information as opposed to your above posting which doesn't
even have as much content as in a horse-fart, let alone horse-shit...
Murat Kalinyaprak
Jive Dadson wrote 3DA3B9FB...@sdfsdffsdsdfa.com
> Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:
>> A senior programmer may cost $30-60K depending on where
>> they live, but they don't have to live in Switzerland...
> Thank goodness this guy is off by a factor of two or three. Not
> about living in Switzerland. About the pay.
> Jive (Senior Programmer) Dadson
Hi "senior programmer",
"By a factor of two or three" in which direction...??
By a factor of two may mean $15-30 or $60-120...
By a factor of three may mean $10-20 or $90-180...
Which one dou you mean...? Are you just too lazy or too much of
a tourist from planet Moro to make yourself a little more clear...?
I acknowledge that it has been at least 12 years since I looked
for a job and my numbers were good-faith estimates. But when
challenged, I don't mind spending the time and effort to check it
out to see if I was wrong...
I just searched through several well respected sources of salary
surveys and all of them put average salary of a "Sernior System
Analyst/Programmer" to under $70,000 (including bonuses)...!!
Somehow they all refer to "programmers", "programmer analysts"
or "senior programmer/analysts" but not to "senior programmers"
specificly. Surely a "senior programmer" would make less than a
"senior programmer/analyst"... But even if they made not less but
equal amounts of money, I couldn't see what your point is...??
I'm just too humble of guy and I can't live with the notion that I may
be more honest and smarter than the ass-kissing herd of tourists
from the planet Moro. I'm trying very hard to become one of you :)
Please don't do this to me... :((
Gregg Cattanach
"Jive Dadson" <dfadf...@sdfsdffsdsdfa.com> wrote in message
news:3DA39D9E...@sdfsdffsdsdfa.com...
> I received mine today. One question: Is there any way to use the new
> backgammon engine with the old user interface?
>
> J.
I'm guessing the answer is no. Snowie 4 uses a different set of tools to
create the backgammon board (the same one used at TrueMoneyGames and
PlayMakerWorld). I'm pretty sure that this is all bound up in the
Snowie4.exe so there aren't separate components that you could import from
Snowie 3.
There is a file C:\Program Files\SnowieGroup\Snowie4\Skins\default\SKIN.INI
that controls the look and feel of all the panels in the product, but it
looks pretty complicated and I'm sure you would be playing with it at your
own risk.
I prefer the old board a little bit over the new, and I don't mind the 'new
look' of the rest of the application, but there are quite a few real
problems with the interface (mainly that it doesn't remember previous
settings that you've selected.) See my post "Snowie 4 - unfortunately full
of bugs".
Gregg C.
Jive Dadson
>
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>
> Jive Dadson wrote 3DA3B9FB...@sdfsdffsdsdfa.com
>
> > Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:
>
> >> A senior programmer may cost $30-60K depending on where
> >> they live, but they don't have to live in Switzerland...
>
> > Thank goodness this guy is off by a factor of two or three. Not
> > about living in Switzerland. About the pay.
> > Jive (Senior Programmer) Dadson
>
> Hi "senior programmer",
>
> "By a factor of two or three" in which direction...??
>
> By a factor of two may mean $15-30 or $60-120...
>
> By a factor of three may mean $10-20 or $90-180...
Figure it out, Einstein. I call myself a senior programmer. I say,
"Thank goodness you are wrong." You can work this out. Think hard. Do
you think I would prefer to make over twice the maximum you named or
less than half the minimum? You can do this. Ask yourself which YOU
would prefer.
My actual title is Senior Member of the Technical Staff. The title of
"programmer" is out. There are also no secretaries any more. Now we
have "executive professionals" or something like that.
Jive Dadson
The "new look" is irritatingly cute, but I could live with that. What I
can't live with is that tiny backgammon board. There are a bunch of
other issues, but the main one is the board. Version 3 is much better.
Murat Kalinyaprak
Jive Dadson wrote 3DA4BF7A...@sdfsdfadfas.com
> Murat Kalinyaprak wrote:
>>> Thank goodness this guy is off by a factor of two or three.
>>> Not about living in Switzerland. About the pay. Jive
>>> (Senior Programmer) Dadson
>> Hi "senior programmer",
>> "By a factor of two or three" in which direction...??
>> By a factor of two may mean $15-30 or $60-120...
>> By a factor of three may mean $10-20 or $90-180...
> Figure it out, Einstein. I call myself a senior programmer.
My name is not Einstein and if I'm not taking my turn to call
you "dumb fucking tourist from planet Moro" it is because
I am a totally reformed polite Murat now... :))
Nobody needs to figure out anything here. I had already
mentioned that I had looked up salary surveys by several
respectable sources. If you are too lazy to do it yourself,
would you like me to shove a few of them up your ass...??
Oopss... :) It's jet lag... Give me a little time to adjust... :))
> My actual title is Senior Member of the Technical Staff.
No wonder I had adressed you as "senior programmer",
eh...?