ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
Tammy Smith
decided as of 13:45 MT Nov 8 2000 CLM]
Oh, it pained me to write that subject-line! :P
Personally, I'm sickened, especially since I voted for Gore instead of
Nader because the race was so close. Next time, I may re-register as a
Green & leave the Democats--that's how disgusted I am.
With that idiot Bush in, we'll be the laughing-stock of the world. At
least the comedians will have a good time, though.
Yuck. :(
Tammy
PS--The Republicans could've done a better job with Mc Cain. At least
he seems to have a brain in his head.
Brian Stinson
Seems a lot of Democrats are too dumb to figure out how to fill out a
ballot. I know it's tough with the arrows pointing to the proper hole and
all.
"Tammy Smith" <gka...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:11179-3A0...@storefull-135.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Paul McElligott
gka...@webtv.net (Tammy Smith) wrote:
> [MODERATOR'S NOTE: The US Presidential election has still not been
> decided as of 13:45 MT Nov 8 2000 CLM]
>
If Bush does win (likely but not certain at this time) he will do so
while losing the popular vote. He will have a razor-edge majority in
Congress. In short, we will have two years of gridlock, followed by
the Democrats probably regaining control of congress in 2002 (out of
power parties always do well in the midterms), and then a Democrat
winning the White House in 2004 because Bush couldn't accomplish jack
shit.
I predict that Bush will duplicate one of his dad's accomplishments.
He will be defeated after one term by someone named Clinton (Hillary,
in this case).
Frankly, if I were a Democrat, I'd rooting for Bush. He's the best
chance they have of regaining control of the Congress and winning the
White House in 2004.
--
Paul McElligott
http://www.terrafed.com
Note: No toads were strangled in the posting of this message.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jms at B5
irregularities and missing ballot boxes in Florida....
Haven't had this much fun since good old Mayor Daly and the ballot-stuffing
boys of Chicago....
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2000 by
synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
to reprint specifically denied to
SFX Magazine)
Jms at B5
outside polling centers in mainly black communities in Florida ticketing people
who showed up to vote for minor offenses, intimidating african-americans...a so
called "computer glitch" which gave the Socialist candidate -- who was polling
literally 1 or 2 votes in every other county -- nearly 10,000 votes in *one
county* that may have been for Gore...the 10,000 Gore votes that disappeared
from Vusalia (sp?) county after they had already been logged into the
computer...
Not to mention the GOP calls to older people telling them they couldn't vote
unless they *specifically registered* for this election, and best of all, the
call that THEY GOT ON TAPE AND GAVE TO THE FBI from a GOP phone bank saying
that people had to bring their voter registration cards with them to be
eligible to vote, and if they didn't, it could cause them legal trouble.
We're looking here at some massively serious allegations of vote fraud,
intimidation, and more.
The GOP has literally tried to steal the election.
The_Doge of St. Louis
<paul_mc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <11179-3A0...@storefull-135.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
> gka...@webtv.net (Tammy Smith) wrote:
>> [MODERATOR'S NOTE: The US Presidential election has still not been
>> decided as of 13:45 MT Nov 8 2000 CLM]
>>
>A few random points:
>
>If Bush does win (likely but not certain at this time) he will do so
>while losing the popular vote. He will have a razor-edge majority in
>Congress.
It'll also be the first time in my memory that we will have elected both a
president and vice-president with criminal records. I guess that's how
we're restoring Morality and Ethics to the Oval Office.
--
<*> ObQuote: "The only reason he gets lost in thought is because it is unfamiliar territory." - Mortimer Zuckerman on George W. Bush in Newsweek
======================================================================
<*>The_Doge of St. Louis
Stage, screen, radio
http://www.pobox.com/~thedoge/
Steve Brinich
Chicago winter.
I hope that this mess results in a thorough re-examination and cleanup
of voting arrangements so that we can get reliable and honest results
the first time, but I'm not holding my breath.
--
Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> If the government wants us
http://www.Radix.Net/~steveb to respect the law
89B992BBE67F7B2F64FDF2EA14374C3E it should set a better example
Conterpoint Four: http://www.filker.org/conterpoint/
Joe Biles
>[MODERATOR'S NOTE: The US Presidential election has still not been
>decided as of 13:45 MT Nov 8 2000 CLM]
>
>Oh, it pained me to write that subject-line! :P
>
>Personally, I'm sickened, especially since I voted for Gore instead of
>Nader because the race was so close. Next time, I may re-register as a
>Green & leave the Democats--that's how disgusted I am.
>
>With that idiot Bush in, we'll be the laughing-stock of the world. At
>least the comedians will have a good time, though.
On the other hand, we can always be led by the guy who invented the
Internet and lied about Bush's tax-cut plan and is for gun control and
married to the woman who invented the V-chip (for real this time) and
Parental Advisory labels. Yes. Bush is obviously the worst candidate
in this election.
Mike Vanpelt
Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
>If you check out cbs.com and abc.com, you will find reports of police cars
>outside polling centers in mainly black communities in Florida ticketing people
>who showed up to vote for minor offenses, intimidating african-americans...a so
>called "computer glitch" which gave the Socialist candidate -- who was polling
>literally 1 or 2 votes in every other county -- nearly 10,000 votes in *one
>county* that may have been for Gore...
James Harris, the Socialist candidate in question, has 589 votes
in the tally from yahoo.com. I was monitoring this tally fairly
continuously last night as it became clear that the election would
be decided in Florida, and I never saw any large number of votes
for this candidate. I wonder where CBS got this "interesting"
factoid that he got 10,000 votes in one county?
>Not to mention the GOP calls to older people telling them they couldn't vote
>unless they *specifically registered* for this election, and best of all, the
>call that THEY GOT ON TAPE AND GAVE TO THE FBI from a GOP phone bank saying
>that people had to bring their voter registration cards with them to be
>eligible to vote, and if they didn't, it could cause them legal trouble.
None... Not one... of these accusations from the ABC web page
were anywhere near Florida, so they have zippo to do with the
results in Florida.
>We're looking here at some massively serious allegations of vote fraud,
>intimidation, and more.
>
>The GOP has literally tried to steal the election.
I seriously doubt it.
It's called "projection", accusing someone else for doing what
you're doing. Like Londo and the little technomage home movie in
Sheridan's office. The Democrats have pulled and continue to pull
these sorts of stunts, with the greater success that comes from
long practice. On the other side, there are the non-citizens who
have been receiving Voter ID cards from the Democrat Party in the
mail, the Wisconsin votes bought from winos with a few packs of
cigarettes, and most despicably, the Clinton administration's
unsucessful attempt to disenfranchise all the active duty military
people who are stationed outside the US by keeping them from
getting absentee ballots.
I think it will utterly hilarious if the final vote that clinches
Florida for Bush is from one of those Navy guys whose mother had
to raise several kinds of Hell with some Congressmen and Admirals
before her son was able to obtain an absentee ballot.
By the way, you didn't mention this one, but the so-called "confusing"
ballot that they're claming "tricked" a bunch of Gore voters into
voting for Buchanan...
Here's a much better picture than the one on ABC's web page:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20001108/pl/mdf129505.html
I'm sorry, but anyone who can't figure this one out has no
business voting. Or driving.
--
Yes, I am the last man to have walked on the moon, | Mike Van Pelt
and that's a very dubious and disappointing honor. | mvp.at.calweb.com
It's been far too long. -- Gene Cernan | KE6BVH
Kurtz
> intimidation, and more.
>
I have never known an election in my lifetime where there *weren't*
plausible accusations of voter fraud. It by no means excuses it.
In my state, the investigations have never proven anything.
(A few years back, in a state-wide election, it was alleged that
dead people were voting, and people were voting multiple times
in different precincts. Judging from the inadequate methods for
validation that I've seen, I totally believe it, especially for same-day
registration).
Who knows? Will somebody bring up that "Republicans/Democrats
have to vote on Wednesday" e-mail as an excuse? I'll bet someone
will try to.
Jms at B5
had two holes punched for presidents, as though somebody had gone through and
mass-punched ballots to disqualify them.
Jms at B5
>in the tally from yahoo.com. I was monitoring this tally fairly
>continuously last night as it became clear that the election would
>be decided in Florida, and I never saw any large number of votes
>for this candidate. I wonder where CBS got this "interesting"
>factoid that he got 10,000 votes in one county?
>
>>intimidation, and more.
>>
>
>I seriously doubt it.
Here's the specific information.
FROM CBS NEWS:
While the nation waited, Democrats raised concerns about irregularities in
several Florida counties. Democratic Party lawyers said ballots in Palm Beach
County were illegally configured, causing some voters to be confused by their
choices. In Miami-Dade, Broward, and other counties, the Gore campaign was
concerned about delays in the delivery of ballot boxes to counting places.
As a symbol of the controversies surfacing around the state, the elections
supervisors' office in Volusia County was wrapped in yellow police tape.
"There are some serious questions about the accuracy of the Florida vote, and
we're prepared to seek a strong enforcement of Florida election laws," said
attorney Ben Kuehne, a Democrat who played a legal role in the overturned Miami
mayoral election in 1997.
CBSNews.com Legal Analysis
If there is a legal challenge, it clearly will be a case where the judge will
immediately drop whatever else he or she may have on the docket to fast track
this through the legal process.
This way, an ultimate decision from the courts comes before mid-December, when
the Electoral College is scheduled to meet to implement this vote.
If the recount doesn't go the vice president's way, it will be awfully tough
for his team to successfully challenge the count in court.
The Democrats will have to make a compelling and precise case of voting
irregularities; they will have to identify specific individuals willing to
swear that they either weren't permitted to vote or didn't vote their
intentions because of voting problems.
If after the recount Governor Bush's lead is smaller than the number of
specific incidents of voter irregularities the Gore folks can point to, then I
think it becomes more likely that there will be a legal challenge.
But if Bush's lead is greater than the sum of that second number, we either
won't see a challenge or we will see an unsuccessful one. — CBSNews.com Legal
Analyst Andrew Cohen
One controversy involves an oddly drawn ballot that confused some voters and
may have caused them to vote for Pat Buchanan instead of Al Gore, the Fort
Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel reported in its Wednesday's editions.
Hundreds of irate Palm Beach County voters, fearing they or their friends voted
for Buchanan instead of Gore, besieged the county election department on
Tuesday and Wednesday with complaints about the ballot, the paper reported.
Buchanan received 3,407 votes in Palm Beach County, far more than neighboring
areas such as Broward County, where he got 786, and Miami-Dade County, where he
got 561. In Precinct 162G, the Lakes of Delray area where Gore received one of
his highest vote totals in all of Palm Beach County, a county high of 47 voters
picked Buchanan, too.
Another possible balloting quirk was in Volusia Country, where James E. Harris,
an obscure Socialist candidate, polled 9,888 votes out of his statewide total
of 10,471.
State Democratic Party officials raised concerns that a computer error may have
caused the outsized ballot for Harris in Volusia County, south of Daytona Beach
on Florida's East Coast. In other counties, Harris received 0, 1, or 2 votes.
FROM ABC NEWS
But Democratic Party officials say they’re concerned about numerous reports
of irregularities in Florida voting that may cost Vice President Gore enough
votes to lose the election. (if you witnessed one tell us)
According to Bob Poe, Chairman for the Florida Democratic Party, reported
irregularities include many accounts of confusion on balloting in Palm Beach
that may have caused some voters to select unintended candidates.
But they also include, he said, lesser known reports of possible voter
intimidation in certain African-American precincts and possibly thousands of
lost votes due to a possible computer glitch.
“There are a lot of questions here, there are a lot of angry
Floridians,” Democratic National Committee spokeswoman Jenny Backus said
today. “People are talking about taking away somebody’s constitutional
right to vote, there are thousands, literally thousands of reports of
irregularities.”
Jesse Jackson said he got calls on Election Day complaining that blacks
had difficulty voting in Florida and other southern states. Jackson said some
voters were told there were no more ballots, or that polls were closed. “What
we need is not just a recount by hand, but also a thorough investigation, ”
Jackson said.
Intimidation Alleged
Poe told ABCNEWS.com Democrats had received reports of intimidation of voters
in the largely African-American precincts of Wakulla County on the Florida
panhandle.
Reports suggest “highway patrol troopers were stationed outside of those
precincts with lights flashing and ticketing people,” he said. “It was
bizarre, it was like going back into the early 1900s,” he said.
“Even in a tiny town like Wakulla and those African-American precincts,
that could account for the 2,000 [Gore votes] right there,” he said.
Vanishing Votes in Volusia?
Poe also said party officials are concerned thousands of votes for Gore may
have been omitted from the Democrat’s vote total in Volusia County, a largely
African-American community located on the east coast and central part of
Florida.
According to a Volusia County official, a problem was found with a
computer disk that contained results from a particular precinct, but county
officials have not yet said specifically what the impact was.
Poe said Democrats had received reports of an instance in which a
preliminary voting count this morning for Gore in Volusia County, reported by
Florida election officials, actually decreased by about 10,000 over time,
before climbing again.
“Now that might have been a typo, who knows,” he told ABCNEWS.com.
“Stranger things have happened in Volusia County.”
The alleged decrease may also have been detected by Miles Gibson, a Ph.D.
candidate and instructor at the University of Virginia, who says he recorded
2,716,995 votes for Gore in Florida at 2:06 a.m. this morning and then
2,707,798 votes for Gore at around 2:15 a.m., while following a national
newscast.
“I can’t certify these numbers, but I was paying extremely careful
attention,” Gibson said.
Michael McDermott, a Volusia county court judge said today there is
nothing to indicate Volusia’s unofficial vote count is flawed or that
appropriate procedures were not followed.
The county’s election Canvassing Board met today to discuss the matter
and the judge directed that three members representing the Democratic and
Republican parties be present.
Officials have begun recounting all of the county’s votes and expect to
be finished by close of business Thursday.
McDermott also ordered Volusia’s election office secured, The Associated
Press reported. It was sealed with crime tape, and all ballots were locked in
the office vault.
“We will be doing everything it takes to make sure the public has full
confidence in the ballot count here,” McDermott said.
“We’re hearing all sorts of things. Right now we’re trying to sift
through what’s true and, you know, this is the most bizarre thing I’ve ever
seen,” said Poe.
Democratic Party officials also have said sample ballots handed to Florida
voters by volunteers as they entered the polling places in precincts in Palm
Beach listed the candidates in a different order than what voters saw in the
voting booths.
Democratic National Committee officials say voters complained ballot
holes for Al Gore were so close to that of Pat Buchanan that many voters
weren’t sure who they had voted for.
The result, they said, was voters who referenced the sample ballots to
cast their votes may have voted for Reform Party candidate Pat Buchanan when
they thought they were voting for Gore.
The Democratic National Committee said it started receiving complaints
from voters that the actual ballot was very confusing. Basically, voters said,
the hole punch for Gore on the ballot was so close to that of Buchanan that
many voters weren’t sure who they had voted for.
“By Gore there were two holes … I had to figure out which one,” said
voter Lena Fransetta. “I asked one of the ladies for help and she didn’t
know. When I left I figured out I voted wrong.”
Another voter, May Cohen, said, “I don’t know if I voted wrong …
Republicans had only one hole, Gore-Lieberman had two. I think I did right, but
it was very confusing.”
DNC officials reacted immediately by calling the county supervisor, trying
to put up signs, or designate a phone number for those who felt they may have
voted the wrong way. The director of Florida’s Division of Elections, Clay
Roberts, said there was nothing wrong or unlawful with ballots in the state.
DNC at one point also claimed nine ballot boxes were missing in Broward
County, which boasts approximately 220,000 voters, but later reported the boxes
were recovered and were being counted.
They said they had no information on how the boxes were lost or how they
were found. Ed Cast of the Florida Elections Committee said the boxes were
never really missing. “There was a slight mishap, but they have been sitting
at the supervisor’s office,” Cast said.
Still, the DNC in Florida has indicated it will send lawyers to file a
court petition for a recount if there is a controversy over the outcome.
GOP Investigating Reports
Republican National Committee spokesman Tom Yu said party officials were aware
of the reports of voter tampering and irregularities and that they were
investigating.
“I’ve heard rumors but I can’t confirm any of those rumors yet and I
think at this point our people are looking into those rumors and trying to
track down if they are true,” Yu said.
In response to the reports of voter confusion at Palm Beach, Yu warned
against jumping to any conclusions about rumored voting irregularities.
“We’re investigating the irregularities and if those irregularities do
exist then, let’s find the source and try to rectify them,” he said. “At
this point I think it’s an investigation that we don’t want to raise any
undo excitement that isn’t warranted. We are looking into any of these
irregularities and if they do prove to exist, the proper action will be
taken.”
Voting Shenanigans Elsewhere
DNC spokeswoman Backus said Tuesday some New York voters were turned away from
some polling places, discouraged from voting altogether, and possibly confused
into voting unintentionally for a candidate they didn’t really want.
However, given the large victory margins for Democrats in New York, it is
unlikely any alleged tampering had any impact on the races.
Backus also said the DNC’s Web site was hacked Monday night and that its
e-mail server crashed because it received a large wave of messages. The system
was back up and running by 10 a.m. Tuesday.
“This just brings shame to the election process,” she said.
Hackers also targeted the GOP’s Web site. Hours before polls opened, RNC
spokesman Yu said, the GOP’s site was replaced by a lengthy anti-Bush tirade.
While saying his message was not endorsed by either party, the
unidentified hacker left a link to Gore’s campaign site and wrote, “George
W. Bush would make a great president for those states which traffic not so much
in decency but bigotry. Not acceptance but hate. Not love but fear.”
Possibly More False Information
Democratic Party officials also alleged voters were intimidated and misinformed
before entering voting booths in states including Missouri, Michigan, Iowa, and
Kansas. Democratic officials relayed unconfirmed reports from Iowa of senior
citizens receiving telephone calls telling them they could not vote unless
specifically registered for the election.
“This isn’t true,” said Backus. It’s “designed to confuse
seniors and keep them from voting for Al Gore … We won’t stand for it and
challenge the other side to stand up as well.”
In West Virginia, according to officials, voters were receiving calls from
a Republican phone bank in California falsely telling them Sen. Robert Byrd,
D-W.Va., had not endorsed Gore.
In fact, said Gore National spokesman Doug Hattaway, “it’s the first
time he has endorsed a Democrat for president since 1964, when he endorsed
Lyndon Johnson.”
In an incident not described by Democratic officials, Kansas’ state
government is looking into telephone calls made to some residents giving false
information about the state’s election laws, according to The Associated
Press.
Democrats had reported getting recorded messages Monday night incorrectly
telling them they must bring voter registration cards to polling places to be
allowed to cast a ballot, the AP reported.
The campaign of Rep. Dennis Moore, a Democrat seeking re-election in the
3rd Congressional District, had contacted the FBI this morning about the phone
calls.
Moore’s office played the message for the AP: “Failure to comply with
election law is serious business, so make sure you have your card and do it
right.”
Attempts to Extend Poll Closings
Meanwhile, Democrats in various states Tuesday night tried unsuccessfully to
get polls to stay open later to accommodate long lines of voters. In St. Louis,
just an hour before polls were set to close, a judge ordered them to stay open
three hours past their closing time — until 10 p.m. local time — to
accommodate the heavy turnout.
Democrats who sought the extension cited long lines and a shortage of
booths, ballots, judges and other equipment. Judge Evelyn M. Baker said the
Board of Election Commissioners “failed to live up to its duty to the voters
of the city.”
However, 45 minutes after the ruling, a three-judge panel in the Missouri
Court of Appeals overturned Baker’s decision and ordered the polls closed at
once. Similar filings to keep polls open were denied in Madison and Milwaukee,
Wis., Portland, Me., and Detroit.
Jms at B5
>Internet and lied about Bush's tax-cut plan and is for gun control and
>married to the woman who invented the V-chip (for real this time) and
>Parental Advisory labels. Yes. Bush is obviously the worst candidate
>in this election.
Get real...this is the worst you can do in opposition to Bush, who lied to the
press about any prior arrests, changed his driver's license number to make it
harder to track such arrests (and was arrested at least once or twice more for
vandalism and rotten behavior), got his daddy to put him in the National Guard
to avoid the draft and went AWOL for 90% of that, never bothering to show up
for his tenure there, and may now be at the center of the biggest and most
blatant attempt in decades to steal an election through fraud and intimidation?
Yeah, much better choice.
Martin A. Hohner
>By the way, you didn't mention this one, but the so-called "confusing"
>ballot that they're claming "tricked" a bunch of Gore voters into
>voting for Buchanan...
>
>Here's a much better picture than the one on ABC's web page:
>
>http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20001108/pl/mdf129505.html
>
>I'm sorry, but anyone who can't figure this one out has no
>business voting. Or driving.
That looked an awful lot like the punch-card ballot here in Illinois. I myself
hit at least one wrong hole in the "retain these 340 judges you never heard of,
or not?" section, but didn't care either way, since I had no idea who they were
(someone else in my family snagged the endorsement/qualifications page from the
newspaper before I went to vote). However, if you're careful, that won't
happen. If it does happen, just go back and get a new ballot. Simple.
Interestingly enough, however, in Illinois, it was Hagelin who was listed as
the Reform Candidate and Buchanan was listed as an independent. Ah, gotta love
minor-party infighting.
Martin "The Mess" Hohner <*> Simn...@aol.com
A&A Module: http://www.geocities.com/axisrules36
Tech Infantry: http://www.geocities.com/earthfleet2000
RIP The Spectrum Wars 1997-2000...gone but not forgotten
Kurtz
"Jms at B5" <jms...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001108233616...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
> Also, MSNBC just reported that 19,000 ballots were *thrown out* because
they
> had two holes punched for presidents, as though somebody had gone through
and
> mass-punched ballots to disqualify them.
>
> jms
>
That wasn't the reason I had heard - the suggestion was, that the
voter may have done this, after seeing they made a mistake, and
punched the second hole as their "real" vote. The people suggesting
this are Gore supporters. So we have two accusations - one, that it
was corrupted by an outside source, and the other, by the voter
themselves due to a poor ballot design. So which is it?
This is weird - I've never seen a ballot with a punch hole. My last
three were a "connect the dots" with a marker kind of thing. Voting
took all of two or three minutes even though I only cast votes in
three offices (President, Senator and House Representative) because
I wanted to be VERY sure I didn't make a mistake. I'm beginning
to wish we had the old voting machines back.
Alyson L. Abramowitz
Mike Vanpelt wrote:
>
> In article <20001108192108...@ng-xa1.aol.com>,
> Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> By the way, you didn't mention this one, but the so-called "confusing"
> ballot that they're claming "tricked" a bunch of Gore voters into
> voting for Buchanan...
>
> Here's a much better picture than the one on ABC's web page:
>
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20001108/pl/mdf129505.html
>
> I'm sorry, but anyone who can't figure this one out has no
> business voting. Or driving.
I can't speak for the other allegations but I suspect I understand why
this was confusing. We normally expect ballots to be only one page.
This one is unusual by utilizing two pages. Folks probably went down
the first page to the left and tried to vote without even looking at the
second page. If you try it with that approach it does appear that there
are two choices for each candidate.
The other comment that has been described in the media is that folks
tried counting holes. So since Gore was second on the left, they wanted
to make a hole in the second hole (which was Buchanan's hole).
Although I can see why this ballot passed muster, I can understand the
confusion.
Mind, in California, we get to pick by number. I'm always concerned that
I'm going to pick 58 rather than 61 and get the wrong choice. It has
always seemed like a balloting system designed to induce user error.
Some breaking news from Florida: AP is apparently now reporting that
the Palm Beach County ballots are illegal by Florida law, according to
mail I've received. I haven't seen the URL reference to this yet. The
comment was that the law requires that all Presidential candidates be
listed in a left hand column with a column of corresponding punch holes
to the right; the Palm Beach ballot had two columns of candidates with a
single column of holes in between them.
Here is a very interesting link that shows the Buchanan vote count by FL
counties:
http://tropics.eastwindgraphics.com/uploaded/newwinter/bv.gif
An interesting URL on the subject I did find is:
It's a local Palm Beach newspaper. They are reporting that local
citizens have already filled suite to rerun the election in Palm Beach.
The Democratic Party has set up a special number to report FLA voter
fraud. I have no idea how busy its been (but my email on the whole
subject is certainly very busy).
For those of you who thought your vote didn't count, I think we are now
proving just how much one vote can make a difference.
Best,
Alyson
Alyson L. Abramowitz
Iain Rae
>
> Mike Vanpelt shaped the electrons to say:
>
> >ballot that they're claming "tricked" a bunch of Gore voters into
> >voting for Buchanan...
> >
> >Here's a much better picture than the one on ABC's web page:
> >
> >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20001108/pl/mdf129505.html
God, you have Natural Law party candidates in the US. Is this the same
"We will disband the RAF and protect UK airspace with Yogic flyers" as
we have this side of the pond?
--
Iain Rae
Computing Officer
Dept. Civil & Offshore Engineering
Heriot-Watt University
Dwight Williams
> "Martin A. Hohner" wrote:
> > Mike Vanpelt shaped the electrons to say:
> >
> > >By the way, you didn't mention this one, but the so-called "confusing"
> > >ballot that they're claming "tricked" a bunch of Gore voters into
> > >voting for Buchanan...
> > >
> > >Here's a much better picture than the one on ABC's web page:
> > >
> > >http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20001108/pl/mdf129505.html
>
> God, you have Natural Law party candidates in the US. Is this the same
> "We will disband the RAF and protect UK airspace with Yogic flyers" as
> we have this side of the pond?
Same as the bunch up here in the "True North", Mr. Rae.
They're not quite everywhere yet, but they're still trying!
--
Dwight Williams(ad...@freenet.carleton.ca) -- Orleans, Ontario, Canada
Maintainer/Founder - DEOList for _Chase_ Fandom
Personal Web Site: http://www.ncf.ca/~ad696/
*I* own my postings on Usenet, *not* any dot-com site!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
JBONETATI
Sigh...I think we've got some faulty reasoning here.
While I don't deny that the items you cite probably happened, exactly where is
the causal connection between the people who may have been involved in them and
the actual candidate or party official?
The way you've phrased it I'd be equally correct to say that since fans have
made and sold non-licensed models of the station and other props that you, JMS,
espouse and encourage trademark and licensing infringement. We *know* that's
false so why would your statement be true?
I'm sure I'm not the only person who's worked on a political campaign and seen
instances where the worker(s) would do anything to get their candidate mone
more vote. That doesn't mean that the candidate or party endorses or approves
those actions.
Jan
Side note: On the campaign I worked on, a 'phone bank' was the sitting room of
a little old lady with three phone jacks. It's not necessarily the picture we
get of a huge room full of phone workers, though that might be the case. I
don't know-does anybody in this particular case?
Paul Harper
>Get real...this is the worst you can do in opposition to Bush, who lied to the
>press about any prior arrests, changed his driver's license number to make it
>harder to track such arrests (and was arrested at least once or twice more for
>vandalism and rotten behavior), got his daddy to put him in the National Guard
>to avoid the draft and went AWOL for 90% of that, never bothering to show up
>for his tenure there, and may now be at the center of the biggest and most
>blatant attempt in decades to steal an election through fraud and intimidation?
Sounds like you need the same group of people who go into third world
states to check the legitimacy of their election processes to get
involved in the State of Florida election as well.
Paul (disappointed, but undershocked).
--
A .sig is all well and good, but it's no substitute for a personality
" . . . SFX is a fairly useless publication on just
about every imaginable front. Never have so many jumped-up fanboys done so
little, with so much, for so long." JMS.
Adam H. Kerman
>Well, it looks like the jury is still well and truly out...talk of
>irregularities and missing ballot boxes in Florida....
>Haven't had this much fun since good old Mayor Daly and the ballot-stuffing
>boys of Chicago....
I'm glad the politics of my town amuses the rest of the country. But the very
same shenanigans go on in your town, your suburb, your city. Favoritism, deals,
small campaign contributions translate into business for the privileged
everywhere. It just doesn't make the national news as often. It's a mistake to
laugh and think, at least I don't live in Chicago! Most likely, your
politicians behave the same way.
As it happens, Mayor Daley's son is Gore's campaign manager.
Erno Simila
[ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ]
[ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
> Well, it looks like the jury is still well and truly out...talk of
> irregularities and missing ballot boxes in Florida....
In September one relatively well-known Finnish net person and satirist
declared on his thrilling website that Yugoslafia and its president
Vojislav Kostunica had decided to send neutral observers to supervise the
honesty of the election of the USA. Maybe this would have been a good idea
after all. ;-)
--
Erno Similä
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: A miracle! Crusade renewed!
"First off, you probably shouldn't put a header on like this, it'll get
people unnecessarily excited. To the second point...." -- jms
Mark Private
[major snippage]
>FROM CBS NEWS:
>
>While the nation waited, Democrats raised concerns about irregularities in
>several Florida counties. Democratic Party lawyers said ballots in Palm Beach
>County were illegally configured, causing some voters to be confused by their
>choices.
[more snippage]
>One controversy involves an oddly drawn ballot that confused some voters and
>may have caused them to vote for Pat Buchanan instead of Al Gore, the Fort
>Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel reported in its Wednesday's editions.
Can someone please tell me what is illegal, confusing and/or odd
about:
http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/palmbeach/pbcballot.jpg
Thanks - Mark
Mike Vanpelt
>>in the tally from yahoo.com. I was monitoring this tally fairly
>>continuously last night as it became clear that the election would
>>be decided in Florida, and I never saw any large number of votes
>>for this candidate. I wonder where CBS got this "interesting"
>>factoid that he got 10,000 votes in one county?
>>
>>>We're looking here at some massively serious allegations of vote fraud,
>>>intimidation, and more.
>>>
>>>The GOP has literally tried to steal the election.
>>
>>I seriously doubt it.
>
>Here's the specific information.
>
>FROM CBS NEWS:
As I said, I read the CBS "information". My doubts remain.
CBS News claims that this Socialist Workers Party guy got
9,888 votes in Volusia county.
AP says he got 589 total, for the whole state.
voter.com says he got 551 total for the whole state.
CNN doesn't say how many he got. They only show the top 7
vote-getters, and they cut off at Hagelin with 2287.
Gee, there seems to be a pattern here.
>One controversy involves an oddly drawn ballot that confused some voters and
>may have caused them to vote for Pat Buchanan instead of Al Gore, the Fort
>Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel reported in its Wednesday's editions.
And I posted a URL to a photograph of the ballot in question.
Only a complete moron would have trouble figuring it out.
(Clue: THere is this arrow in each candidate's box, pointing
right at the hole you should punch to vote for that candidate.)
It's *much* clearer in the photograph than it is in the very bad
scan of a xerox of a fax that was on some web pages.
Mark Private
>Also, MSNBC just reported that 19,000 ballots were *thrown out* because they
>had two holes punched for presidents, as though somebody had gone through and
>mass-punched ballots to disqualify them.
>
That's certainly one possible explanation. But as I understand it,
overvotes aren't all that uncommon. So 19,000 out of 6,000,000 doesn't
seem untoward to me.
I don't suppose anyone would happen to have percentages of overvotes
from any other state?
Mark
James Bell
vested interest in it and are known for being fair minded, unbiased, and honest.
We know you are a great fiction writer but this is too much, Joe.
Jim
Jms at B5 wrote:
> If you check out cbs.com and abc.com, you will find reports of police cars
> outside polling centers in mainly black communities in Florida ticketing people
> who showed up to vote for minor offenses, intimidating african-americans...a so
> called "computer glitch" which gave the Socialist candidate -- who was polling
> literally 1 or 2 votes in every other county -- nearly 10,000 votes in *one
> county* that may have been for Gore...the 10,000 Gore votes that disappeared
> from Vusalia (sp?) county after they had already been logged into the
> computer...
>
> Not to mention the GOP calls to older people telling them they couldn't vote
> unless they *specifically registered* for this election, and best of all, the
> call that THEY GOT ON TAPE AND GAVE TO THE FBI from a GOP phone bank saying
> that people had to bring their voter registration cards with them to be
> eligible to vote, and if they didn't, it could cause them legal trouble.
>
> We're looking here at some massively serious allegations of vote fraud,
> intimidation, and more.
>
> The GOP has literally tried to steal the election.
>
ZW
Mark Private wrote:
> [snippage]
>
> Can someone please tell me what is illegal, confusing and/or odd
> about:
>
> http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/palmbeach/pbcballot.jpg
This is a ballot that uses a punch card which is inserted underneath the ballot.
Unlike MOST places, the designers of this one arranged names on both sides of the
page making it excessively easy to enter an incorrect vote. Buchannan had a
higher than typical return where these were used and people at the time worried
they had punched the wrong hole.
--
Zombiwoman
zombi...@2cowherd.net
"You must do the thing you think you can not do." - Eleanor Roosevelt
http://www.peterwoodward.com
James Bell
Mike Vanpelt wrote:
> <other good points snipped>
> By the way, you didn't mention this one, but the so-called "confusing"
> ballot that they're claming "tricked" a bunch of Gore voters into
> voting for Buchanan...
>
> Here's a much better picture than the one on ABC's web page:
>
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/p/nm/20001108/pl/mdf129505.html
>
> I'm sorry, but anyone who can't figure this one out has no
> business voting. Or driving.
Or having a sixth grade diploma, or walking in public without a guide, or preparing
food, or running a VCR or television...
Jim
James Bell
out two holes. There's just no way! And ALL of them MUST have been trying to
vote for AlGore! I guess Bush didn't win by 2000, he lost by 17000! I knew
you'd whine when Bush won but I didn't expect it to be this bad.
Jim
Jms at B5 wrote:
> Also, MSNBC just reported that 19,000 ballots were *thrown out* because they
> had two holes punched for presidents, as though somebody had gone through and
> mass-punched ballots to disqualify them.
>
James Bell
> On 8 Nov 2000 21:41:48 -0700, jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
>
> [major snippage]
>
> >FROM CBS NEWS:
> >
> >While the nation waited, Democrats raised concerns about irregularities in
> >several Florida counties. Democratic Party lawyers said ballots in Palm Beach
> >County were illegally configured, causing some voters to be confused by their
> >choices.
>
> [more snippage]
>
> >One controversy involves an oddly drawn ballot that confused some voters and
> >may have caused them to vote for Pat Buchanan instead of Al Gore, the Fort
> >Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel reported in its Wednesday's editions.
>
> Can someone please tell me what is illegal, confusing and/or odd
> about:
>
> http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/palmbeach/pbcballot.jpg
It requires an IQ of more than 7.
Jim
J. Potts
Mark Private <ostens...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Can someone please tell me what is illegal, confusing and/or odd
>about:
>
>http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/palmbeach/pbcballot.jpg
Sure.
According to FLorida law, the candidates have to be listed in the order
in which the majority votes in the primary placed them which means Gore
should have been second. Although he is, technically second listed on
the left, his *punch* is the third, because Buchanan is on the right and
*his* punch is number 2 from the top.
Also, this doesn't show where the actual punches ended up on the final
ballot. The punch for Buchanan was aligned next to the word Democrat
on the left.
Also, Florida law states that the punches are suppose to be to the right
of the candidates names.
This according to a story in the ABC news. They had someone from Florida
who incorrectly punched the Buchanan ticket show an actual ballot on the
air and it really *is* confusing. You have to look *very* carefully and
double check where you're punching to make sure you're punching where you
intend. It's a badly designed form.
--
JRP
"How many slime-trailing, sleepless, slimy, slobbering things do you know
that will *run and hide* from your Eveready?"
--Maureen Birnbaum, Barbarian Swordsperson
Mac Breck
> jms
>
> (jms...@aol.com)
> (all message content (c) 2000 by
> synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
> to reprint specifically denied to
> SFX Magazine)
>From a friend (a CMU Grad., BSME, Masters from the GSIA school):
********************
The whole thing is a mess. People don't think about the issues, they
follow the "leaders" like dumb sheep. This country is in sad shape. I
can't believe what they are doing in Florida. Bush should have won the
election last night and now it looks like Gore is going to win because the
guy doing the "official" tally in Florida is a campaigning supporter of
Gore (CNN news coverage last night said that). Also, they "discovered"
uncounted absentee ballots in several Florida counties and Sunday, the news
said that Gore's people were out "collecting" homeless people to have them
registered for absentee ballots so they could vote for Gore in exchange for
a pack of cigarettes. Also, Gore's people are saying that Florida's
election ballots were not consistent in the location of the candidates
names and Gore has people willing to submit affidavits stating that they
wanted to vote for Gore but voted for someone else by mistake since the
ballots were not all the same within the state and their vote should be
counted for Gore, not who they actually voted for. If Bush looses the
election based on Florida, the vote was rigged and I'll stop wasting my
time voting.
New York is clueless - it is official !!!
********************
Yeah, add to this, the actors (e.g. Helen Hunt, Rob Reiner, Martin Sheen,
Julia Louis-Dreyfuss, Ben Affleck) on the phone banks in Pittsburgh, trying
to get people to vote for Gore, and in the same breath saying that they're
not trying to influence people with their "star status." Anybody see the
hypocrisy here??
Boy, those nasty ol' Republicans are always trying to influence elections.
You know, in 26 years of voting, I've never seen Republicans outside a
voting location trying to get people to vote Republican. I *always* see
Democrats outside a voting location trying to get people to vote Democrat.
Every time.
In my town, Democrats outnumber Republicans, 2 to 1.
Mac
Tammy Smith
supposedly won. I went to bed annoyed, then when I put on CNN the next
morning, I thought I was watching a rerun of the previous night because
the electoral-vote count was back down. Nope!
This is something else--it's the craziest thing I have ever seen. One
of those things you will tell your grandchildren about.
Tammy
Tammy Smith
Seems a lot of Democrats are too dumb to figure out how to fill out a
ballot. I know it's tough with the arrows pointing to the proper
hole and all.
My reply:
A lot of people don't have a lot of time to vote (my sister voted before
she went to work, for example), so that type of ballot would throw them
off if they didn't have enough time to really look at it. I think the
ballot in Florida is a joke--I had a punch-hole one at my polling-site
in the San Diego area, but all the candidates were on one side. Much
easier to follow if you are pressed for time.
Tammy
Paul Harper
wrote:
>Sunday, the news
>said that Gore's people were out "collecting" homeless people to have them
>registered for absentee ballots so they could vote for Gore in exchange for
>a pack of cigarettes.
Perhaps there is a subtlety to US politics that I haven't observed
before from this side of the puddle, but how is this significantly
different to receiving tens of millions of dollars in campaign
contributions and assistance from large southern companies and defense
conglomerates in return for favours once the recipient is in power?
Paul.
Paul McElligott
ostens...@hotmail.com (Mark Private) wrote:
> That's certainly one possible explanation. But as I understand it,
> overvotes aren't all that uncommon. So 19,000 out of 6,000,000 doesn't
> seem untoward to me.
>
Was that 19,000 out of all Florida or just Palm Beach County? If it's
just the county, then yeah, that is out of line.
--
Paul McElligott
http://www.terrafed.com
Note: No toads were strangled in the posting of this message.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Paul McElligott
m...@web1.calweb.com (Mike Vanpelt) wrote:
>
> And I posted a URL to a photograph of the ballot in question.
> Only a complete moron would have trouble figuring it out.
>
You have the advantage of looking at it with full knowledge of what the
problem was supposed to be. That gives you an advantage over the 80-
year-old retiree who actually had to use the ballot when seeing it for
the first time.
Kurtz
"Paul McElligott" <paul_mc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8uek1s$12s$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <3a0a69f6$1...@news3.calweb.com>,
> m...@web1.calweb.com (Mike Vanpelt) wrote:
> >
> > And I posted a URL to a photograph of the ballot in question.
> > Only a complete moron would have trouble figuring it out.
> >
>
> You have the advantage of looking at it with full knowledge of what the
> problem was supposed to be. That gives you an advantage over the 80-
> year-old retiree who actually had to use the ballot when seeing it for
> the first time.
>
On CNN, they said that it's been used in previous elections.
Steve Brinich
> You have the advantage of looking at it with full knowledge of what the
> problem was supposed to be. That gives you an advantage over the 80-
> year-old retiree who actually had to use the ballot when seeing it for
> the first time.
That is the standard ballot used in local elections, and specimen
copies were distributed in advance of the election.
--
Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> If the government wants us
http://www.Radix.Net/~steveb to respect the law
89B992BBE67F7B2F64FDF2EA14374C3E it should set a better example
Conterpoint Four: http://www.filker.org/conterpoint/
Paul McElligott
m...@web1.calweb.com (Mike Vanpelt) wrote:
>
> I'm sorry, but anyone who can't figure this one out has no
> business voting. Or driving.
>
you do then.
Terry Rubenstein
Tammy Smith wrote:
I would think that casting a vote was one of those things you would actually
give a little thought and care to. If it isn't worth more than 30 seconds
of your time, perhaps you shouldn't bother to show up.
I'm also rather curious - where I am, employers are required to make sure
your start & end times on an election day provide you with a couple hours
available to vote. Are there no such provisions in US law?
lisa_c...@my-deja.com
pa...@harper.net wrote:
> On 8 Nov 2000 21:49:02 -0700, jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
>
> >Get real...this is the worst you can do in opposition to Bush, who
lied to the
> >press about any prior arrests, changed his driver's license number to
make it
> >harder to track such arrests (and was arrested at least once or twice
more for
> >vandalism and rotten behavior), got his daddy to put him in the
National Guard
> >to avoid the draft and went AWOL for 90% of that, never bothering to
show up
> >for his tenure there, and may now be at the center of the biggest and
most
> >blatant attempt in decades to steal an election through fraud and
intimidation?
>
> Sounds like you need the same group of people who go into third world
> states to check the legitimacy of their election processes to get
> involved in the State of Florida election as well.
>
> Paul (disappointed, but undershocked).
> A .sig is all well and good, but it's no substitute for a personality
>
> " . . . SFX is a fairly useless publication on
just
> about every imaginable front. Never have so many jumped-up fanboys
done so
> little, with so much, for so long." JMS.
>
>
OK, I didn't mean to get into this, but well, I live in Florida (Volusia
county to be precise). Here's what I've heard. I can't quote sources
for all of this, bt I'm sure of everything but one statement, which I'll
mention.
First of all, the ballots in Palm Beach County, with circles to be
punched in the middle, were, as law requires, publicized beforehand and
approved by BOTH the Dems and Republicans. So boo hooiing about not
voting correctly shouldn't be directed toward just one side. In
addtion, the ballots did clearly indicate who you were voting for IF you
bothered to read them. Sorry, I have not much sympathy for those who
cared so little about their vote that they didn't. And don't argue with
me about eye sight either - I am fairly severely visually handicapped -
bad enough so I can't get a driver's license, and yet I've dealt with
ballots all my adult life. This includes a former system in Volusia
county which involved punching holes. My husband's description of me
with this is that I'd go through 5 or 6 ballots before being able to
punch it right. A couple of times he was allowed to help me - I would
hope this is legal, if not it's far too late to do anything about it,
since these were elections over 4 years ago.
Secondly, and this is what I THINK I heard, not sure, but it makes sense
given what I said above - any challenge to a ballot must be done, again
by Florida law, BEFORE votes are being counted.
Now what do I think should happen? Do the recount, pray a lot, and hope
the election officials who are both Democrats and Republicans, as well
as the Electoral college, do their jobs. Although I voted for Bush, I'm
not sure I even care much (well, a bit) about who is declard winner as
long as it is done swiftly, as justly as possible (true justice in any
elction I suspect is impossible, I can easily imagine computers skipping
ballots and not reading them correctly, and have heard of this
happening, and not only here.) We live in an imperfect world. But the
people doing the recount, acting under state law, are doing their best,
and although I'm sure they aren't all compeltely great people, they for
the most part are doing a hard job to the best of their ability.
The worse thing IMHO that I could see happening is this getting tied up
in a lenghty court battle - do we really want lawyers and judges
deciding this? I don't trust most of them, and I think there are others
who agree with me.
As for "stealing" elections, you might want to ask the press about that
- Florida was called BEFORE all the polls in the state closed - we have
2 time zones. I heard stories of people in line turning around and
leaving. Not to mention the effect of this call on voters in the rest of
the country where the polls definitely weren't closed. I agree the
press is free to report as they see fit, but THEY could have had a
serious impact on this election, and at the very least I'd like to see
them exercise self-restraint in the future when it comes to exit polls
and calling races. This election was too close to pretend that either
side might not have been effected negatively by reporting.
Just my thoughts.
Lisa Coulter
Oh, by the way, was talking to a friend of mine, Democratic history prof
(I think he voted Green this time) and he said that it was known in 1960
that there was serious scandal in the Illinois voting. Why was nothing
done then? No law suits, etc. Perhaps, in some ways, Nixon was at least
at that point a better person tan he is given credit for being.
And the only reason Gore doesn't have a criminal record is that no one
caught him smoking pot, or if they did he managed to get out of it.
Really a moral model.
Paul McElligott
ostens...@hotmail.com (Mark Private) wrote:
> >
> That's certainly one possible explanation. But as I understand it,
> overvotes aren't all that uncommon. So 19,000 out of 6,000,000 doesn't
> seem untoward to me.
>
--
Paul McElligott
http://www.terrafed.com
Note: No toads were strangled in the posting of this message.
Christopher Pound
Mark Private <ostens...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Can someone please tell me what is illegal, confusing and/or odd
>about:
>
>http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/palmbeach/pbcballot.jpg
The basic form of a ballot in Florida is stipulated by law:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0101/SEC191.HTM&Title=->2000->Ch0101->Section%20191
There are several places in the election statutes that indicate
the check-off spot should be to the right of the candidate's name, e.g.:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0101/SEC151.HTM&Title=->2000->Ch0101->Section%20151
and
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0101/SEC011.HTM&Title=->2000->Ch0101->Section%20011
Was it an illegally constructed ballot? I don't know -- I'm not a lawyer.
Perhaps it is entirely legal to deviate from the legally-stipulated form of
the ballot by publishing it beforehand, etc., etc.
As for what is confusing or odd, it is odd that the ballot doesn't
follow the general form outlined in the election statutes. The ballot
is odd in the plain language sense of being unusual, compared to other
ballots throughout Florida. It is confusing in that its organization
is practically boustrophedonic, i.e. ox-plow fashion, rather than
consistent in direction. It would be an elementary mistake to construct
a social science survey that way.
I don't know that it's very good statesmanship to pursue this issue
after the fact, but then I'm overcome with a sense of deja vu: a legal
technicality pursued with partisan zeal to manipulate the fate of the
presidency, making our political situation a global/historical embarrassment?
Where have I heard that before? ;)
--
Christopher Pound (po...@rice.edu)
Dept. of Anthropology, Rice University
Paul McElligott
Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> wrote:
> That is the standard ballot used in local elections, and specimen
> copies were distributed in advance of the election.
>
Actually it's very likely that the ballot caused just as much confusion
in previous elections. Those elections just weren't close enough for
it to matter. Now it matters.
Paul McElligott
Terry Rubenstein <terry.ru...@utoronto.ca> wrote:
>
> I'm also rather curious - where I am, employers are required to make
sure
> your start & end times on an election day provide you with a couple
hours
> available to vote. Are there no such provisions in US law?
>
know otherwise?
Kurtz
> In article <3A0AD5F5...@radix.net>,
> Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> wrote:
> > That is the standard ballot used in local elections, and specimen
> > copies were distributed in advance of the election.
> >
>
> Actually it's very likely that the ballot caused just as much confusion
> in previous elections. Those elections just weren't close enough for
> it to matter. Now it matters.
>
Then the correct time to register a complaint is BEFORE the
votes are in, not *after* an election whose outcome is not desired.
Somehow, the ballot was OK and fair until this mess occurred.
Mac Breck
From: "Jms at B5" <jms...@aol.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
>>James Harris, the Socialist candidate in question, has 589 votes
>>in the tally from yahoo.com. I was monitoring this tally fairly
>>continuously last night as it became clear that the election would
>>be decided in Florida, and I never saw any large number of votes
>>for this candidate. I wonder where CBS got this "interesting"
>>factoid that he got 10,000 votes in one county?
>>
>>>We're looking here at some massively serious allegations of vote fraud,
>>>intimidation, and more.
>>>
>>>The GOP has literally tried to steal the election.
>>
>>I seriously doubt it.
>Here's the specific information.
>FROM CBS NEWS:
> While the nation waited, Democrats raised concerns about irregularities in
> several Florida counties.
Well, there's an unbiased source!
> Democratic Party lawyers said ballots in Palm
> Beach County were illegally configured,
And I guess the Republicans were behind this? Who designed the ballots?
Who checked that they were configured properly? There has to be some
precident and QC in ballot design, right?
> causing some voters to be confused
> by their choices.
Voting *does* take some intelligence. I voted on an B&W LCD touch screen
(slow response and sometime it took a couple of presses to register my
selection) The blasted thing must have been running a 286 CPU!.
> In Miami-Dade, Broward, and other counties, the Gore
> campaign was concerned about delays in the delivery of ballot boxes to
> counting places.
"Delays" in delivery affect *projections*, not the final tally. Hijacking
the boxes would affect the final tally. If there proof that boxes were
stolen or tampered with, criminal charges should be filed, regardless of who
did it.
> As a symbol of the controversies surfacing around the state, the elections
> supervisors' office in Volusia County was wrapped in yellow police tape.
Sensationalisn. Got any specifics as to the reason? Have any charges been
filed?
> "There are some serious questions about the accuracy of the Florida vote,
> and we're prepared to seek a strong enforcement of Florida election laws,"
What other kind of "enforcement" should there be?
> said attorney Ben Kuehne, a Democrat who played a legal role in the
> overturned Miami mayoral election in 1997.
Wow, another unbiased source!
> CBSNews.com Legal Analysis
> If there is a legal challenge, it clearly will be a case where the judge
will
> immediately drop whatever else he or she may have on the docket to fast
> track this through the legal process.
Gees, and I thought there was no pressure to get this done quickly.
> This way, an ultimate decision from the courts comes before mid-December,
> when the Electoral College is scheduled to meet to implement this vote.
That's fast? Fast would be by Thanksgiving.
> If the recount doesn't go the vice president's way, it will be awfully
tough
> for his team to successfully challenge the count in court.
If the recount doesn't go the vice president's way? Why would it be any
tougher for Gore than Bush? Why the disparity?
> The Democrats will have to make a compelling and precise case of voting
> irregularities; they will have to identify specific individuals willing to
> swear that they either weren't permitted to vote or didn't vote their
> intentions because of voting problems.
And I'm sure people could be dug up and persuaded to do this for them. No
problem there. Done deal.
> If after the recount Governor Bush's lead is smaller than the number of
> specific incidents of voter irregularities the Gore folks can point to,
then I
> think it becomes more likely that there will be a legal challenge.
There will probably be a legal challenge either way it goes. And so it
drags on.....
> But if Bush's lead is greater than the sum of that second number, we
either
> won't see a challenge or we will see an unsuccessful one. — CBSNews.com
> Legal Analyst Andrew Cohen
> One controversy involves an oddly drawn ballot that confused some voters
> and may have caused them to vote for Pat Buchanan instead of Al Gore, the
> Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel reported in its Wednesday's editions.
Yes, you do have to pay attention to what you're doing when you vote, and
it's not a race to see who gets done first. If I'd accidentally voted for
Gore, I'd chalk it up to my own screw-up, and that would have been it.
> Hundreds of irate Palm Beach County voters, fearing they or their friends
> voted for Buchanan instead of Gore, besieged the county election
> department on Tuesday and Wednesday with complaints about the ballot, the
> paper reported.
Having visions of the three old men in the Got Milk commercial. :-) If
you're not competent enough to read and follow the directions, and if
confused, ask for help (which I think you're allowed to do), you shouldn't
be voting.
> Buchanan received 3,407 votes in Palm Beach County, far
> more than neighboring areas such as Broward County, where he got 786,
> and Miami-Dade County, where he got 561. In Precinct 162G, the Lakes of
> Delray area where Gore received one of his highest vote totals in all of
Palm
> Beach County, a county high of 47 voters picked Buchanan, too.
Big surprise there, Gore voters can't stand Buchanon. Neither can I.
> Another possible balloting quirk was in Volusia Country, where James E.
> Harris, an obscure Socialist candidate, polled 9,888 votes out of his
> statewide total of 10,471.
Does the guy live in the area? There could be other reasons for this.
> State Democratic Party officials raised concerns that a computer error may
> have caused the outsized ballot for Harris in Volusia County, south of
> Daytona Beach on Florida's East Coast. In other counties, Harris received
> 0, 1, or 2 votes.
So the computer error should be investigated. I wonder if the error was on
the data acquisition or in the counting of the data.
> FROM ABC NEWS
> But Democratic Party officials say they’re concerned about numerous
> reports of irregularities in Florida voting that may cost Vice President
Gore
> enough votes to lose the election. (if you witnessed one tell us)
Couldn't it also be said that these irregularities in Florida voting may
cost Bush enough votes to lose the election? Why are all voting
irregularities *automatically* assumed to be coming from the Republican
side?
> According to Bob Poe, Chairman for the Florida Democratic Party,
> reported irregularities include many accounts of confusion on balloting in
> Palm Beach that may have caused some voters to select unintended
> candidates.
Like I said, if you can't figure it out, you shouldn't be voting.
> But they also include, he said, lesser known reports of possible voter
> intimidation in certain African-American precincts
If this had been true I'm SURE it'd have been ALL OVER the network news.
That would spell HUGE ratings for them. Sounds like a DNC leaked rumor.
> and possibly thousands of
> lost votes due to a possible computer glitch.
But lost for *which* side? Why does everybody assume all of them would have
voted for Gore?
> “There are a lot of questions here, there are a lot of angry
> Floridians,” Democratic National Committee spokeswoman Jenny Backus
> said today. “People are talking about taking away somebody’s
constitutional
> right to vote, there are thousands, literally thousands of reports of
> irregularities.”
More scare tactics, the common crap from the DNC.
> Jesse Jackson said he got calls on Election Day complaining that
blacks
> had difficulty voting in Florida and other southern states. Jackson said
some
> voters were told there were no more ballots, or that polls were closed.
Were there no more ballots? Were the poles closed? Were they late? I'm
sure if I'd gone to my voting location at 8:01PM, the Democrats at the
entrance would have gleefully turned me away.
>“What
> we need is not just a recount by hand, but also a thorough
investigation, ”
> Jackson said.
No shit, Sherlock. (to use Lennier's outtake).
> Intimidation Alleged
> Poe told ABCNEWS.com Democrats had received reports of intimidation of
> voters in the largely African-American precincts of Wakulla County on the
> Florida panhandle.
Why has none of this been SEEN on the TV News? Why do we not have video of
these acts of intimidation? Somebody would have gotten *something* on tape.
It's be all over the news. Where is it?? Could somebody be making this
stuff up, and just spreading stories and rumors, *because* the election is
close and may not go their way??
If it was true, we'd have SEEN it by now, even if the DNC had to stage it,
complete with script.
> Reports suggest “highway patrol troopers were stationed outside of
those
> precincts with lights flashing and ticketing people,”
For what? Illegal parking? Traffic violations? Just because it's Election
Day, it doesn't mean that you can double-park, park by a yellow line, fire
hydrant, etc.
> he said. “It was
> bizarre, it was like going back into the early 1900s,” he said.
Again, what were the reasons for the tickets? Did somebody get into a
scuffle, or a heated political argument? It's easy to go for the soundbite,
and in doing so lead others to believe something that is contrary to the
facts. This is also called lying. Journalists, eager to paint their side
in the best possible light, have often been known to do this. Newspapers
sometimes positively drip with left-wing bias. With politicians and
laywers, it's one of their favorite things to do.
> “Even in a tiny town like Wakulla and those African-American
precincts,
> that could account for the 2,000 [Gore votes] right there,” he said.
Again you're assuming that they'd all vote for Gore.
> Vanishing Votes in Volusia?
> Poe also said party officials are concerned thousands of votes for Gore
may
> have been omitted from the Democrat’s vote total in Volusia County, a
largely
> African-American community located on the east coast and central part of
> Florida.
> According to a Volusia County official, a problem was found with a
> computer disk that contained results from a particular precinct, but
county
> officials have not yet said specifically what the impact was.
A problem with a computer disk? Faulty floppy (hope they're not using
floppies, since ever since their price dropped to almost nothing,
reliability/durability has all but vanished). Tampering? I wish they'd be
specific.
> Poe said Democrats had received reports of an instance in which a
> preliminary voting count this morning for Gore in Volusia County, reported
by
> Florida election officials, actually decreased by about 10,000 over time,
> before climbing again.
That could be *correction* of a mistake. People do make mistakes, you know.
However, the mistake SHOULD be explained.
> “Now that might have been a typo, who knows,” he told ABCNEWS.com.
> “Stranger things have happened in Volusia County.”
> The alleged decrease may also have been detected by Miles Gibson, a
> Ph.D. candidate and instructor at the University of Virginia, who says he
> recorded 2,716,995 votes for Gore in Florida at 2:06 a.m. this morning
and
> then 2,707,798 votes for Gore at around 2:15 a.m., while following a
national
> newscast.
> “I can’t certify these numbers, but I was paying extremely careful
> attention,” Gibson said.
Like I said, this sounds like a correction of a mistake, like somebody found
their own screw-up and fixed it.
> Michael McDermott, a Volusia county court judge said today there is
> nothing to indicate Volusia’s unofficial vote count is flawed or that
> appropriate procedures were not followed.
> The county’s election Canvassing Board met today to discuss the matter
> and the judge directed that three members representing the Democratic and
> Republican parties be present.
Sounds fair.
> Officials have begun recounting all of the county’s votes and expect
to
> be finished by close of business Thursday.
Good, I'll be glad when this is over.
> McDermott also ordered Volusia’s election office secured, The
> Associated Press reported. It was sealed with crime tape, and all ballots
were
> locked in the office vault.
Crime tape? As in "Police Line: Do Not Cross" indicating that a crime has
been committed? To wrap the office in that tape would fuel the
rumor-mongering about the irregularities being real. Well, I guess it
doesn't matter as long as it makes for higher ratings and sells more papers.
> “We will be doing everything it takes to make sure the public has full
> confidence in the ballot count here,” McDermott said.
> “We’re hearing all sorts of things. Right now we’re trying to sift
> through what’s true and, you know, this is the most bizarre thing I’ve
ever
> seen,” said Poe.
People should just let the guy do his job.
> Democratic Party officials also have said sample ballots handed to
Florida
> voters by volunteers as they entered the polling places in precincts in
Palm
> Beach listed the candidates in a different order than what voters saw in
the
> voting booths.
And whose fault is this? Are the people who do the oficial ballot layouts
supposed to mimic the Democratic flyers?
Why do the Republicans use no flyers? In 26 years of voting, I've never
been given a Republican flyer. It could be because the town and county are
written off as being died-in-the-wool union Democrat.
> Democratic National Committee officials say voters complained ballot
> holes for Al Gore were so close to that of Pat Buchanan that many voters
> weren’t sure who they had voted for.
They were also close for other candidates. Sometimes, things are not laid
out perfectly and you just have to pay more attention to what you're doing.
> The result, they said, was voters who referenced the sample ballots
to
> cast their votes may have voted for Reform Party candidate Pat Buchanan
> when they thought they were voting for Gore.
> The Democratic National Committee said it started receiving complaints
> from voters that the actual ballot was very confusing. Basically, voters
said,
> the hole punch for Gore on the ballot was so close to that of Buchanan
that
> many voters weren’t sure who they had voted for.
So go slow, and pay attention.
> “By Gore there were two holes … I had to figure out which one,” said
> voter Lena Fransetta. “I asked one of the ladies for help and she didn’t
> know. When I left I figured out I voted wrong.”
If the lady she asked didn't know, she wasn't qualified to be working there.
Could Lena have asked someone else, or was the the lady she asked, the only
one there? Sometimes you have to put in a little extra effort. This IS an
important election, you know. I'm not saying the ballots were perfectly
laid out, but I could have probably figured it out with little trouble. Is
this the first time they ever saw a staggered ballot like that. Where I
vote, we went straight from paper ballots that you filled in the oval with a
#2 pencil. to the PC/LCD Touch Screen voting that we have now. I've never
used a ballot like that or a "voting machine."
> Another voter, May Cohen, said, “I don’t know if I voted wrong …
> Republicans had only one hole, Gore-Lieberman had two. I think I did
right,
> but it was very confusing.”
> DNC officials reacted immediately by calling the county supervisor,
trying
> to put up signs, or designate a phone number for those who felt they may
> have voted the wrong way. The director of Florida’s Division of Elections,
> Clay Roberts, said there was nothing wrong or unlawful with ballots in the
> state.
> DNC at one point also claimed nine ballot boxes were missing in
Broward
> County, which boasts approximately 220,000 voters, but later reported the
> boxes were recovered and were being counted.
> They said they had no information on how the boxes were lost or how
they
> were found. Ed Cast of the Florida Elections Committee said the boxes were
> never really missing. “There was a slight mishap, but they have been
sitting
> at the supervisor’s office,” Cast said.
Much ado about nothing.
> Still, the DNC in Florida has indicated it will send lawyers to file
a
> court petition for a recount if there is a controversy over the outcome.
If it comes out against Gore, I'm sure there will be controversy. If
necessary, they'll generate some.
> GOP Investigating Reports
> Republican National Committee spokesman Tom Yu said party officials were
> aware of the reports of voter tampering and irregularities and that they
were
> investigating.
> “I’ve heard rumors but I can’t confirm any of those rumors yet and I
> think at this point our people are looking into those rumors and trying to
> track down if they are true,” Yu said.
> In response to the reports of voter confusion at Palm Beach, Yu warned
> against jumping to any conclusions about rumored voting irregularities.
> “We’re investigating the irregularities and if those irregularities do
> exist then, let’s find the source and try to rectify them,”
This is a responsible position to take.
> he said. “At
> this point I think it’s an investigation that we don’t want to raise any
> undo excitement that isn’t warranted.
Leave that to the Democrats.
> We are looking into any of these
> irregularities and if they do prove to exist, the proper action will be
> taken.”
Again, a responsible position to take.
> Voting Shenanigans Elsewhere
> DNC spokeswoman Backus said Tuesday some New York voters were turned
> away from some polling places,
Turned away by whom, and for what reason? Specifics would help here, but
DNC statements rarely contain them.
> discouraged from voting altogether, and
> possibly confused into voting unintentionally for a candidate they didn’t
really
> want.
So this happened in New York too? Is it possible that some of these voters
might have been Republicans, or might have voted for Bush and Lazio? Hmm.
> However, given the large victory margins for Democrats in New York, it
is
> unlikely any alleged tampering had any impact on the races.
No, New York's a Demo stronghold, just like the Pittsburgh PA area.
> Backus also said the DNC’s Web site was hacked Monday night and that
> its e-mail server crashed because it received a large wave of messages.
The
> system was back up and running by 10 a.m. Tuesday.
> “This just brings shame to the election process,” she said.
A large wave of messages? Could this have been the same hackers referenced
in the GOP paragraph below?
> Hackers also targeted the GOP’s Web site. Hours before polls opened,
> RNC spokesman Yu said, the GOP’s site was replaced by a lengthy anti-
> Bush tirade.
> While saying his message was not endorsed by either party, the
> unidentified hacker left a link to Gore’s campaign site and wrote, “George
> W. Bush would make a great president for those states which traffic not so
> much in decency but bigotry. Not acceptance but hate. Not love but fear.”
Again, the same old scare tactics. I'd bet this was either instigated by
the DNC, was a yellow-dog Democrat who is also a hacker, or was a hacker
intent on stirring up chaos (maybe a Shadow thrall?).
> Possibly More False Information
> Democratic Party officials also alleged
You could cut it off right there.
> voters were intimidated and
> misinformed before entering voting booths in states including Missouri,
> Michigan, Iowa, and Kansas.
Democrats do this all the time at the location where I vote. I ignore 'em.
They snicker when I walk up to the door (knowing that I'm a Republican) like
my vote doesn't matter, and then try to get me to vote Democrat. I did vote
for one Democrat in this election (a state Rep.) because she does a good
job.
> Democratic officials relayed unconfirmed
> reports from Iowa of senior citizens receiving telephone calls telling
them
> they could not vote unless specifically registered for the election.
They can't vote unless they're registered, but the "specifically registered
for the (implied "this") election is wrong.
> “This isn’t true,” said Backus. It’s “designed to confuse
> seniors and keep them from voting for Al Gore … We won’t stand for it and
> challenge the other side to stand up as well.”
Darn, I didn't receive any phone calls this election, and I'd been hoping
for a call from Helen Hunt. :-(
> In West Virginia, according to officials, voters were receiving calls
from
> a Republican phone bank in California falsely telling them Sen. Robert
Byrd,
> D-W.Va., had not endorsed Gore.
So they should ignore these phone calls. I don't believe what somebody I
don't personally know tells me on an unsolicited phone call, especially
during an election. These phone calls that urge voting for any specific
candidate should be banned/illegal.
> In fact, said Gore National spokesman Doug Hattaway, “it’s the first
> time he has endorsed a Democrat for president since 1964, when he
> endorsed Lyndon Johnson.”
A mistake in 1964 and a mistake now. 2 for 2.
> In an incident not described by Democratic officials, Kansas’ state
> government is looking into telephone calls made to some residents giving
> false information about the state’s election laws, according to The
Associated
> Press.
> Democrats had reported getting recorded messages Monday night
> incorrectly telling them they must bring voter registration cards to
polling
> places to be allowed to cast a ballot, the AP reported.
I cary mine in my wallet all the time. What's the big deal? They know me
at my voting location, but if they didn't they could ask to see my card or
drivers license. Then they check their records to see if I'm currently
registered. Maybe with the expected heavy turnout, they wanted to speed
things up and make sure everybody had ID?
> The campaign of Rep. Dennis Moore, a Democrat seeking re-election in
> the 3rd Congressional District, had contacted the FBI this morning about
the
> phone calls.
> Moore’s office played the message for the AP: “Failure to comply with
> election law is serious business, so make sure you have your card and do
it
> right.”
> Attempts to Extend Poll Closings
I guess that meant Attempts to Extend Poll Hours.
> Meanwhile, Democrats in various states Tuesday night tried unsuccessfully
to
> get polls to stay open later to accommodate long lines of voters.
I don't know what the rules are on this, but if I got to the door of the
voting location at 8:01PM, I'd expect to be turned away. I voted early to
avoid the rush.
> In St. Louis,
> just an hour before polls were set to close, a judge ordered them to stay
open
> three hours past their closing time — until 10 p.m. local time — to
> accommodate the heavy turnout.
> Democrats who sought the extension cited long lines and a shortage of
> booths, ballots, judges and other equipment.
I guess they weren't ready for the turnout, based on years of lower
turnouts.
> Judge Evelyn M. Baker said the
> Board of Election Commissioners “failed to live up to its duty to the
voters
> of the city.”
> However, 45 minutes after the ruling, a three-judge panel in the
Missouri
> Court of Appeals overturned Baker’s decision and ordered the polls closed
at
> once. Similar filings to keep polls open were denied in Madison and
> Milwaukee, Wis., Portland, Me., and Detroit.
If all the voters showed up between 7PM and 8PM, would this be the Board of
Election Commissioners' fault? People have to space things out. You can't
wait 'till the last minute and expect to get in.
Mac
Mac Breck
she went to work, for example), so that type of ballot would throw them
off if they didn't have enough time to really look at it.>
Listen to what you're saying. This is an important national election.
I always take time to vote. Read and follow the instructions. If you can't
vote before work, or during lunch, go after work. If that's not possible,
work it out with your boss, and take some time off (e.g. a 1/2 day), or make
the time up at work later. If you're serious about it, you'll *make* time
to vote.
<I think the
ballot in Florida is a joke--I had a punch-hole one at my polling-site
in the San Diego area, but all the candidates were on one side. Much
easier to follow if you are pressed for time.>
Different type of machine, ! guess?
Mac
Paul McElligott
"Kurtz" <mal...@erols.com> wrote:
>
> Then the correct time to register a complaint is BEFORE the
> votes are in, not *after* an election whose outcome is not desired.
> Somehow, the ballot was OK and fair until this mess occurred.
>
>
matter before because the miscast votes couldn't tilt the election one
way or the other.
And really, how much scrutiny did the ballots really get before the
election?
Mac Breck
From: "Terry Rubenstein" <terry.ru...@utoronto.ca>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
>
>
> Tammy Smith wrote:
>
> > Brian Stinson said:
> >
> > Seems a lot of Democrats are too dumb to figure out how to fill out a
> > ballot. I know it's tough with the arrows pointing to the proper
> > hole and all.
> >
> > My reply:
> >
> > A lot of people don't have a lot of time to vote (my sister voted before
> > she went to work, for example), so that type of ballot would throw them
> > off if they didn't have enough time to really look at it. I think the
> > ballot in Florida is a joke--I had a punch-hole one at my polling-site
> > in the San Diego area, but all the candidates were on one side. Much
> > easier to follow if you are pressed for time.
> >
> > Tammy
>
> I would think that casting a vote was one of those things you would
actually
> give a little thought and care to. If it isn't worth more than 30 seconds
> of your time, perhaps you shouldn't bother to show up.
Exactly! And READ the instructions.
> I'm also rather curious - where I am, employers are required to make sure
> your start & end times on an election day provide you with a couple hours
> available to vote. Are there no such provisions in US law?
Not sure. I've always managed to vote except for a couple of times where I
was SO busy at work, that I lost track of time and didn't get out before the
polls closed. Sometimes I'd work 16 hours straight, and it only felt like
eight. Once I'm in full tilt programming mode (e.g. on a roll), I don't
stop until I've nailed it. Inspiration evaporates if I have to start and
stop at artificially designated hours.
Mac
Mac Breck
news:3a0a7738...@news.flex.com...
> On 8 Nov 2000 21:41:48 -0700, jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
>
> [major snippage]
>
> >FROM CBS NEWS:
> >
> >While the nation waited, Democrats raised concerns about irregularities
in
Beach
> >County were illegally configured, causing some voters to be confused by
their
> >choices.
>
> [more snippage]
>
> >One controversy involves an oddly drawn ballot that confused some voters
and
> >may have caused them to vote for Pat Buchanan instead of Al Gore, the
Fort
> >Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel reported in its Wednesday's editions.
>
> about:
>
> http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/palmbeach/pbcballot.jpg
What? Aren't the arrows bold enough?
Mac
Mac Breck
From: "Paul McElligott" <paul_mc...@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
> In article <3a0a69f6$1...@news3.calweb.com>,
> m...@web1.calweb.com (Mike Vanpelt) wrote:
> >
> > And I posted a URL to a photograph of the ballot in question.
> > Only a complete moron would have trouble figuring it out.
> >
>
> You have the advantage of looking at it with full knowledge of what the
> problem was supposed to be. That gives you an advantage over the 80-
> year-old retiree who actually had to use the ballot when seeing it for
> the first time.
So, have they ever had ballots arranged like this before in Florida, or is
this a first (as in the first time the 80 year old has seen one like this)?
Mac
Mac Breck
From: "Paul McElligott" <paul_mc...@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
> In article <3A0AD5F5...@radix.net>,
> Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> wrote:
> > That is the standard ballot used in local elections, and specimen
> > copies were distributed in advance of the election.
> >
>
> Actually it's very likely that the ballot caused just as much confusion
> in previous elections. Those elections just weren't close enough for
> it to matter. Now it matters.
So it took until now for somebody to complain about the layout??
Mac
Mac Breck
From: "Kurtz" <mal...@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
>
> "Paul McElligott" <paul_mc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:8uendl$4d8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > In article <3A0AD5F5...@radix.net>,
> > Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> wrote:
> > > That is the standard ballot used in local elections, and specimen
> > > copies were distributed in advance of the election.
> > >
> >
> > Actually it's very likely that the ballot caused just as much confusion
> > in previous elections. Those elections just weren't close enough for
> > it to matter. Now it matters.
> >
>
> Then the correct time to register a complaint is BEFORE the
> votes are in, not *after* an election whose outcome is not desired.
Actually, it's as soon as it's discovered, hopefully in the first election
that the ballott design was used, not now (who knows how many years later).
> Somehow, the ballot was OK and fair until this mess occurred.
If it's confusing, why has this taken until now to have this pointed out?
If it's confusing, the layout should have been corrected YEARS ago.
Mac
Mac Breck
From: "Paul McElligott" <paul_mc...@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 1:35 PM
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
> In article <8uepb3$10j$1...@bob.news.rcn.net>,
> "Kurtz" <mal...@erols.com> wrote:
> >
> > Then the correct time to register a complaint is BEFORE the
> > votes are in, not *after* an election whose outcome is not desired.
> > Somehow, the ballot was OK and fair until this mess occurred.
> >
> >
> I don't think the ballot was OK or fair before either. It just didn't
> matter before because the miscast votes couldn't tilt the election one
> way or the other.
In a close 3-way race it could matter. It could have mattered before. It's
just that nobody looked into it. Were the ballots for the other candidates
(Senator, House of Representatives, State offices, etc.) this way?
> And really, how much scrutiny did the ballots really get before the
> election?
Seems like an ergonomics/QA issue here.
Mac
Kurtz
"Paul Harper" <pa...@harper.net> wrote in message
news:cpjl0ts9h1sa0ai5v...@4ax.com...
> On 9 Nov 2000 08:56:40 -0700, "Mac Breck" <macb...@access995.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Sunday, the news
> >said that Gore's people were out "collecting" homeless people to have
them
> >registered for absentee ballots so they could vote for Gore in exchange
for
> >a pack of cigarettes.
>
> Perhaps there is a subtlety to US politics that I haven't observed
> before from this side of the puddle, but how is this significantly
> different to receiving tens of millions of dollars in campaign
> contributions and assistance from large southern companies and defense
> conglomerates in return for favours once the recipient is in power?
>
Because both, if *proven*, qualify as a crime?
Mac Breck
From: "Paul McElligott" <paul_mc...@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 11:49 AM
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
> In article <3a0a1537$1...@news3.calweb.com>,
> m...@web1.calweb.com (Mike Vanpelt) wrote:
> >
> > I'm sorry, but anyone who can't figure this one out has no
> > business voting. Or driving.
> >
> Tell you what... we'll wait until you're 85-years-old and see how well
> you do then.
Well, I'm only a little over half that age, and I feel pretty old sometimes.
:-)
The key is for them to take their time, read the directions, ask for help if
necessary, and don't succumb to peer pressure (knowing that people are
waiting behind you). That's a voter's obligation.
Mac
Mac Breck
didn't know enough to ask for another ballot. Why do you automatically see
conspiracies everywhere? It doesn't mean that they got 19000 ballots all in
one chunk with double-punches (indicative of somebody tampering). They
could have been here and there from across the whole state.
When they used the old paper ballot/#2 pencil method in my area, why didn't
I see the use of pencil (as opposed to ink) an a way for the Democrats to
erase my blackened oval, and blacken in a different oval?
Mac
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jms at B5" <jms...@aol.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 11:36 PM
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
> Also, MSNBC just reported that 19,000 ballots were *thrown out* because
they
> had two holes punched for presidents, as though somebody had gone through
and
> mass-punched ballots to disqualify them.
Paul Harper
>Because both, if *proven*, qualify as a crime?
So there's no difference. That's all I needed to know!
Paul.
Mac Breck
From: "Kurtz" <mal...@erols.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
>
> Because both, if *proven*, qualify as a crime?
Is there some law that says if you're convicted of a crime (any crime), you
cannot run for President? If so, why were they allowed on any ballot?
The Democrats (especially the current administration) are very good at
keeping anything from being proven. If something does get proven, it's
minimized, called trivial, and/or is evidence of "mean-spiritedness" on the
part of the other side.
Mac
Steve Brinich
> I'm also rather curious - where I am, employers are required to make sure
> your start & end times on an election day provide you with a couple hours
> available to vote. Are there no such provisions in US law?
I don't believe there's any federal law, but there may be laws in some
states.
While on the subject, here's how I'd hold elections if I ran the zoo:
1. Open the polls over a three-day weekend.
2. Election officials don't give out any results until all polls close.
3. Have clear authentication requirements for voting, including
re-registration at least every four years and presentation of ID at the
polls. Vote fraud would be a felony -- at least a month at the Crossbar
Hotel for individual perps, at least a few years for larger scale
tampering.
The exact requirements would be published by the state government,
like any other law, and disseminated as widely as possible. Attempts to
mislead voters about the requirements (in either direction, whether to
draw illegal voters in or to scare off legal voters) would, of course,
be a form of fraudulent "larger-scale tampering" -- see previous
paragraph.
4. Keep the Electoral College (everybody who wants a nationwide recount
like the one in Florida, or knows where to find enough inspectors to run
one honestly, please raise your hands...), but have the Maine/Nebraska
separation into Congressional districts as the norm.
Claudia Mastroianni
: "Paul McElligott" <paul_mc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
: news:8uendl$4d8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
:> In article <3A0AD5F5...@radix.net>,
:> Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> wrote:
:> > That is the standard ballot used in local elections, and specimen
:> > copies were distributed in advance of the election.
My understanding is that this is the first time it's run to two
pages with a central punch column like that. If I'm wrong, please
someone give me a cite.
:> Actually it's very likely that the ballot caused just as much confusion
:> in previous elections. Those elections just weren't close enough for
:> it to matter. Now it matters.
: Then the correct time to register a complaint is BEFORE the
: votes are in, not *after* an election whose outcome is not desired.
: Somehow, the ballot was OK and fair until this mess occurred.
Voters in the county in question *were* complaining well before the
polls closed. Note also that some have reported knowing that their
ballot was wrongly punched, requesting another, and being told they
couldn't have a fresh one.
Claudia
--
Where is the madness that you promised me?
Claudia Mastroianni
: It could *also* indicate confused voters, or maybe voters who screwed up and
: didn't know enough to ask for another ballot. Why do you automatically see
: conspiracies everywhere? It doesn't mean that they got 19000 ballots all in
: one chunk with double-punches (indicative of somebody tampering). They
: could have been here and there from across the whole state.
But they weren't. That's the count for Palm Beach County alone. That's
what's so out of whack.
Here. On the theory that a picture is worth a thousand words:
http://cuwu.editthispage.com/2000/11/08
Just check out the Buchanan/Bush disparity.
I'm not saying this county's results represent malice or fraud.
I'm saying that they in combination with voter anecdotes reveal
unanticipated confusion that definitely had results visible in
the tally.
Claudia
--
"Fish heads are never seen drinking cappucino on Bab 5 with
half minbari women....yeah." -- julia starkey
Mac Breck
Chinese campaign contributions. Oh that's right. He didn't *know* he was
at a fundraiser. It was all just an innocent, unfortunate misunderstanding.
Al hasn't been involved with enough fundraisers to be able to recognize one
when he's in the middle of it.
Get real, Joe.
Mac
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jms at B5" <jms...@aol.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
> >On the other hand, we can always be led by the guy who invented the
> >Internet and lied about Bush's tax-cut plan and is for gun control and
> >married to the woman who invented the V-chip (for real this time) and
> >Parental Advisory labels. Yes. Bush is obviously the worst candidate
> >in this election.
>
> Get real...this is the worst you can do in opposition to Bush, who lied to
the
> press about any prior arrests, changed his driver's license number to make
it
> harder to track such arrests (and was arrested at least once or twice more
for
> vandalism and rotten behavior), got his daddy to put him in the National
Guard
> to avoid the draft and went AWOL for 90% of that, never bothering to show
up
> for his tenure there, and may now be at the center of the biggest and most
> blatant attempt in decades to steal an election through fraud and
intimidation?
>
> Yeah, much better choice.
Alyson L. Abramowitz
> ----- Original Message -----
> > Meanwhile, Democrats in various states Tuesday night tried unsuccessfully
> to
> > get polls to stay open later to accommodate long lines of voters.
>
> I don't know what the rules are on this, but if I got to the door of the
> voting location at 8:01PM, I'd expect to be turned away. I voted early to
> avoid the rush.
>
The issue isn't whether folks got in line at 8:01 PM. The issue is whether, if
they were already in line at 8:00 PM, were they allowed to vote? I don't know
Florida's rules but I'd sure hope that the answer would be yes.
Remember that the poll workers are folks who are employed for one day to do this
task. While I'm sure they are trained, at some point they are let out on their
own to actually do the work. It's distinctly possible that this rule just
wasn't stressed because no one anticipated it.
I know in this area there were news reports before the election that they might
have to combine polling places because they couldn't find enough staff to run
them. That would certainly have caused longer lines. If we combine this with a
record voter turn out in many, many places (we broke records in this State),
it's easy to see why there would be long lines. I was doing GOTV (Get Out The
Vote) on Tuesday and lots of folks mentioned that in our area.
Also, telling folks to just go early is often not viable. In this area in is
not unusual for a work day to end at 7 PM. So voting between 7-8 PM may be the
only viable time. Normally early morning and 6-8 PM are the big rush times.
Best,
Alyson
Aubrey W. Adkins
afternon had a good program covering this. It seems that this particular polling
area has a very large number of very senior voters and they make mistakes.
However, if they take their mispunched card back to the polling official, they
are given a clean one to try again. If they put it into the counting machine then
it cannot be retrieved and is not counted. It was pointed out that in the 1996
presidential election this same area had in excwssive of 14,000 discarded
ballots. Before you jump in defense of Gore, let me say that I didn't vote fore
either of them because from where I see it, they are both bought and paid for and
leave me wanting someone who is qualified. I'm not impressed by gore's mind
either. Clinton is a Rhodes scholar and the most memorable thing he has
accomplished was to get a 'blow job' in the oval office.
Aubrey
Jms at B5 wrote:
> Also, MSNBC just reported that 19,000 ballots were *thrown out* because they
> had two holes punched for presidents, as though somebody had gone through and
> mass-punched ballots to disqualify them.
>
Alyson L. Abramowitz
to ask the press about that
> - Florida was called BEFORE all the polls in the state closed - we have
> 2 time zones. I heard stories of people in line turning around and
> leaving. Not to mention the effect of this call on voters in the rest of
> the country where the polls definitely weren't closed. I agree the
> press is free to report as they see fit, but THEY could have had a
> serious impact on this election, and at the very least I'd like to see
> them exercise self-restraint in the future when it comes to exit polls
> and calling races. This election was too close to pretend that either
> side might not have been effected negatively by reporting.
>
Or positive reporting. I really agree with you, Lisa, on this one. When we
heard the initial Florida call it stopped our entire GOTV efforts for 5
minutes here (our polls were still open). Folks we were contacting were
telling us they had heard about Florida and it was encouraging them to vote.
So it works both ways. I think fairness requires that we don't report until
all polls close.
Best,
Alyson
Tom Betz
Quoth ostens...@hotmail.com (Mark Private) in <3a0a7738...@news.flex.com>:
|On 8 Nov 2000 21:41:48 -0700, jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
|
|[major snippage]
|
|>FROM CBS NEWS:
|>
|>While the nation waited, Democrats raised concerns about irregularities in
|>several Florida counties. Democratic Party lawyers said ballots in Palm Beach
|>County were illegally configured, causing some voters to be confused by their
|>choices.
|
|[more snippage]
|
|>One controversy involves an oddly drawn ballot that confused some voters and
|>may have caused them to vote for Pat Buchanan instead of Al Gore, the Fort
|>Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel reported in its Wednesday's editions.
|
|Can someone please tell me what is illegal, confusing and/or odd
|about:
|
|http://news.findlaw.com/cnn/docs/palmbeach/pbcballot.jpg
Sure.
The layout of the ballot violates Florida statues, arguably making it illegal.
The text of one of the actual statutes may be found at
<http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0101/SEC011.HTM&Title=->2000->Ch0101->Section%20011>
The wording is:
"Before delivering the ballot to the elector, one of the inspectors shall
write his or her initials or name on the stub attached to the ballot; then
the elector shall, without leaving the polling place, retire alone to a booth
or compartment provided, and place an "X" mark after the name of the candidate
of his or her choice for each office to be filled, and likewise mark an "X"
after the answer he or she desires in case of a constitutional amendment or
other question submitted to a vote."
Following paragraphs clarify that an "X" need not be the exact mark, so long
as the indication is clear and obvious, which, I presume, legalizes punch-
card ballots -- but the wording "after the name of the candidate" is what
is being interpreted as "to the right of the name of the candidate".
Further reinforcing this interpretation, the words "at the right of" appear in:
<http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0101/SEC151.HTM&Title=->2000->Ch0101->Section%20151>
"(3)(a) Beneath the caption and preceding the names of candidates shall be
the following words: "To vote for a candidate whose name is printed on the
ballot, place a cross (X) mark in the blank space at the right of the name
of the candidate for whom you desire to vote. To vote for a write-in candidate,
write the name of the candidate in the blank space provided for that purpose."
Now, note that these two statues concern themselves with PAPER ballots.
Is a punch-card ballot defined as a paper ballot, or as an "electromechanical
voting system? The latter are covered by a separate statute:
<http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0101/SEC015.HTM&Title=->2000->Ch0101->Section%20015>
As with most things legal, this could be VERY messy.
But anything that causes 19,000 people in one county to be disenfranchised
deserves careful consideration. If it's illegal, it should be rectified.
--
|I always wanted to be someone,| Tom Betz, Generalist |
|but now I think I should have | Want to send me email? FIRST, READ THIS PAGE: |
|been a wee bit more specific. | <http://www.panix.com/~tbetz/mailterms.shtml> |
| "Fuck NANAE." -- Paul Vixie | YO! MY EMAIL ADDRESS IS HEAVILY SPAM-ARMORED! |
Aubrey W. Adkins
county..
Aubrey
Tom Betz
Quoth Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> in <3A0AD5F5...@radix.net>:
|Paul McElligott wrote:
|
|> You have the advantage of looking at it with full knowledge of what the
|> problem was supposed to be. That gives you an advantage over the 80-
|> year-old retiree who actually had to use the ballot when seeing it for
|> the first time.
|
|copies were distributed in advance of the election.
Specimen copies that didn't indicate the locations of the punch holes.
Tom Betz
Quoth Claudia Mastroianni <cma...@fas.harvard.edu> in <8ueum5$5s7$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu>:
|Kurtz <mal...@erols.com> wrote:
|: "Paul McElligott" <paul_mc...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
|: news:8uendl$4d8$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
|:> In article <3A0AD5F5...@radix.net>,
|:> Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> wrote:
|:> > copies were distributed in advance of the election.
|
|pages with a central punch column like that. If I'm wrong, please
|someone give me a cite.
|
|:> Actually it's very likely that the ballot caused just as much confusion
|:> in previous elections. Those elections just weren't close enough for
|:> it to matter. Now it matters.
|
|: Then the correct time to register a complaint is BEFORE the
|: votes are in, not *after* an election whose outcome is not desired.
|: Somehow, the ballot was OK and fair until this mess occurred.
|
|Voters in the county in question *were* complaining well before the
|polls closed. Note also that some have reported knowing that their
|ballot was wrongly punched, requesting another, and being told they
|couldn't have a fresh one.
Which, by the way, also violates Florida statutes, which permit a
voter to request a replacement for a spoiled ballot no more than
three times.
And it wasn't just 80-year-old pensioners who were victimized in this
way; I heard an interview with an 18-year-old first-time voter who was
denied a replacement ballot when she realized her error in punching Buchanan.
Brian Watson
> >On the other hand, we can always be led by the guy who invented the
> >Internet and lied about Bush's tax-cut plan and is for gun control and
> >married to the woman who invented the V-chip (for real this time) and
> >Parental Advisory labels. Yes. Bush is obviously the worst candidate
> >in this election.
>
> Get real...this is the worst you can do in opposition to Bush, who lied to the
> press about any prior arrests, changed his driver's license number to make it
> harder to track such arrests (and was arrested at least once or twice more for
> vandalism and rotten behavior), got his daddy to put him in the National Guard
> to avoid the draft and went AWOL for 90% of that, never bothering to show up
> for his tenure there, and may now be at the center of the biggest and most
> blatant attempt in decades to steal an election through fraud and intimidation?
>
> Yeah, much better choice.
So voting for the lesser of two evils is the way to go? Is that what you are
saying? I had expected better of you JMS, than to see you promote that one evil is
better than the other. Funny, Sheridan chosing between two evils chose the third
option. Perhaps convictions in fantasy are easier than reality.
Personally, I voted Libertarian, for freedom and liberty, rather than evil.
I guess I'm funny that way.
Mac Breck
[ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ]
[ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tammy Smith" <gka...@webtv.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 3:46 PM
Subject: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
> [MODERATOR'S NOTE: The US Presidential election has still not been
> decided as of 13:45 MT Nov 8 2000 CLM]
>
> Oh, it pained me to write that subject-line! :P
I don't feel your pain. Besides, Bush didn't win YET.
> Personally, I'm sickened, especially since I voted for Gore instead of
> Nader because the race was so close. Next time, I may re-register as a
> Green & leave the Democats--that's how disgusted I am.
I'd have been sickened if Gore had won, and this still could come to pass.
> With that idiot Bush in, we'll be the laughing-stock of the world. At
> least the comedians will have a good time, though.
I'll take a less smart guy with good advisors, over a smarter guy who I
think I could trust about as far as I could throw him. In reality, I voted
for the VP.
> Yuck. :(
>
> Tammy
>
> PS--The Republicans could've done a better job with Mc Cain. At least
> he seems to have a brain in his head.
As I recall, Carter was supposed to be a pretty smart guy, too. A Nuclear
Engineer.
Bottom line. I don't trust Gore at all (0%). I don't trust ANY politician
fully, but I don't trust Gore at all.
Mac
Mac Breck
[ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul McElligott" <paul_mc...@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2000 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
> In article <11179-3A0...@storefull-135.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
> gka...@webtv.net (Tammy Smith) wrote:
> > [MODERATOR'S NOTE: The US Presidential election has still not been
> > decided as of 13:45 MT Nov 8 2000 CLM]
> >
> A few random points:
>
> If Bush does win (likely but not certain at this time) he will do so
> while losing the popular vote. He will have a razor-edge majority in
> Congress. In short, we will have two years of gridlock, followed by
> the Democrats probably regaining control of congress in 2002 (out of
> power parties always do well in the midterms), and then a Democrat
> winning the White House in 2004 because Bush couldn't accomplish jack
> shit.
>
> I predict that Bush will duplicate one of his dad's accomplishments.
> He will be defeated after one term by someone named Clinton (Hillary,
> in this case).
Now THAT would be a NIGHTMARE. If that happens, I think Alec Baldwin has
the right idea. IMHO, the people of NY who elected her are brain dead.
I'm ashamed to be in a town, county, and state that went for Gore.
Mac
Mac
Paul McElligott
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001109/pl/election_buchanan_dc_1.html
Holy smokes, Buchanan actually shows integrity. God knows he can't be
a Gore lover. I'm sure he'd rather see Bush than Gore in the White
House.
Pat, I take back about 1.5% of the nasty things I said about you. I'd
take back the others, but they're true. You're still as crazy as a
shithouse rat.
--
Paul McElligott
http://www.terrafed.com
Note: No toads were strangled in the posting of this message.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Mac Breck
[ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ]
[ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
> It'll also be the first time in my memory that we will have elected both a
> president and vice-president with criminal records. I guess that's how
> we're restoring Morality and Ethics to the Oval Office.
Some people are just a whole lot better at getting their records erased.
Politics: a profession where honesty, and refraining from mudslinging does
NOT pay.
Mac
Mike Hennebry
>On the other hand, we can always be led by the guy who invented the
>Internet and lied about Bush's tax-cut plan and is for gun control and
>married to the woman who invented the V-chip (for real this time) and
>Parental Advisory labels. Yes. Bush is obviously the worst candidate
>in this election.
Beats having a serial killer in the White House.
--
Mike henn...@web.cs.ndsu.NoDak.edu
"Miranda kinda likes him too, but
knows he comes from the wrong
side of the gates of hell." -- Frank Wu
Dave Mansell
wrote:
> 19000 out of 6 million people couldn't possibly have made a mistake and
> punched out two holes. There's just no way! And ALL of them MUST have
> been trying to vote for AlGore! I guess Bush didn't win by 2000, he
> lost by 17000! I knew you'd whine when Bush won but I didn't expect
> it to be this bad.
It was being reported over here (in the UK) that these ballots were indeed
pretty much all punched for Gore, and none for Bush. If this is indeed the
case it seems to me that the likelihood was that there were intended to be
votes for Gore, and jms may have some cause to 'whine'.
Dave
Dave Mansell
gka...@webtv.net (Tammy Smith) wrote:
> Yikes--my original post *did* go through! I posted it right after Bush
> supposedly won. I went to bed annoyed, then when I put on CNN the next
> morning, I thought I was watching a rerun of the previous night because
> the electoral-vote count was back down. Nope!
>
> This is something else--it's the craziest thing I have ever seen. One
> of those things you will tell your grandchildren about.
>
> Tammy
>
I know this is a serious thing for you guys, but from over hear it looks
like something out of Monty Python. The highlight must have been the
interview with the guy who lost to the recently deceased candidate,
apparently complaining that being dead gave his opponent an advantage...
Dave
Dan Riley
> >One controversy involves an oddly drawn ballot that confused some voters and
> >may have caused them to vote for Pat Buchanan instead of Al Gore, the Fort
> >Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel reported in its Wednesday's editions.
>
> Only a complete moron would have trouble figuring it out.
Before I started paying attention to how people use user interfaces, I
would have agreed--but having watched very intelligent people get
confused by interfaces that I thought were completely obvious, and
then working through what made the interface confusing, I can easily
see how that ballot could be confusing to some people.
How confused depends a lot on how the ballot is approached. If you
start with a high level overview of the ballot (as we all are in this
context) it's pretty obvious how it is supposed to work. However, if
you start by locating a particular entry and then try to work out from
there which hole to punch--as you might in a voting booth--it isn't
nearly as obvious, since you need the big picture to disambiguate
exactly what the arrow means. This task dependence means that the
ballot is more likely to be confusing in the context where it is meant
to be used than it is out of context.
I'd expect most people to figure it out fairly quickly, but from
experience I can easily see how some people, non-morons even, would
punch the wrong hole, especially if they felt rushed, and that makes
it a poor user interface design.
--
Dan Riley d...@mail.lns.cornell.edu
Wilson Lab, Cornell University <URL:http://www.lns.cornell.edu/~dsr/>
"History teaches us that days like this are best spent in bed"
Dan Riley
> Can someone please tell me what is illegal, confusing and/or odd
> about:
According to
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001109/ts/election_leadall_dc_56.html
the specific legal claim is that Florida law fixes the order of the
candidates on the ballot, requiring that Bush be listed first and
Gore second, but on the "butterfly" ballot Buchanan was the second
hole-punch. This argument is probably strengthened by the numbering
of the entries.
Joshua P. Hill
<paul_mc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <3a0a7923...@news.flex.com>,
> ostens...@hotmail.com (Mark Private) wrote:
>
>> That's certainly one possible explanation. But as I understand it,
>> overvotes aren't all that uncommon. So 19,000 out of 6,000,000 doesn't
>> seem untoward to me.
>>
>
>Was that 19,000 out of all Florida or just Palm Beach County? If it's
>just the county, then yeah, that is out of line.
Just Palm Beach County! It's way out of line:
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20001109/ts/election_leadall_dc_58.html
Democratic Rep. Robert Wexler of Florida said 19,000 votes in Palm
Beach County in his state had been disqualified because of the
confusing design of the ballot paper.
Wexler said because of the way the ballot was laid out, many people
had double-punched their cards, leading to disqualification because
they voted twice -- once for Gore and then for Buchanan.
``I'm hearing outrage. I'm hearing hysteria, quite frankly. Because
they feel that in overwhelming numbers they voted for Al Gore and yet
their votes are not being counted,'' Wexler told CBS's ``The Early
Show.''
Wexler argued the ballot was illegal because under Florida law the
order of the candidates on the ballot is fixed, and in this case
should have been Bush first and Gore second. At least two lawsuits
have been filed in state and federal courts challenging the result.
Buchanan said he was also interested in the case of the 19,000 votes,
adding that he did not think the election could be redone in that
county.
``I don't want to take any votes that don't belong to me,'' Buchanan
said, adding that he had not campaigned in Palm Beach and that the
majority of those votes probably were for Gore.
Josh
Joshua P. Hill
Josh
On 9 Nov 2000 08:13:51 -0700, James Bell <jam...@naxs.com> wrote:
>19000 out of 6 million people couldn't possibly have made a mistake and punched
>out two holes. There's just no way! And ALL of them MUST have been trying to
>vote for AlGore! I guess Bush didn't win by 2000, he lost by 17000! I knew
>you'd whine when Bush won but I didn't expect it to be this bad.
>
>Jim
Joshua P. Hill
wrote:
>The whole thing is a mess. People don't think about the issues, they
>follow the "leaders" like dumb sheep. This country is in sad shape. I
>can't believe what they are doing in Florida. Bush should have won the
>election last night and now it looks like Gore is going to win because the
>guy doing the "official" tally in Florida is a campaigning supporter of
>Gore (CNN news coverage last night said that).
?
The people who under Florida law will certify the recount are all
Republicans. (Jeb Bush recused himself because of an obvious conflict
of interest.) The local recounts themselves are being supervised by
local officials, who may be Republican or Democratic or both, and is
open and being widely observed by both parties. If fraud occurrs, it's
very unlikely that it will be in the recount.
> Also, they "discovered"
>uncounted absentee ballots in several Florida counties and Sunday, the news
>said that Gore's people were out "collecting" homeless people to have them
>registered for absentee ballots so they could vote for Gore in exchange for
>a pack of cigarettes. Also, Gore's people are saying that Florida's
>election ballots were not consistent in the location of the candidates
>names and Gore has people willing to submit affidavits stating that they
>wanted to vote for Gore but voted for someone else by mistake since the
>ballots were not all the same within the state and their vote should be
>counted for Gore, not who they actually voted for. If Bush looses the
>election based on Florida, the vote was rigged and I'll stop wasting my
>time voting.
There's overwhelming evidence that the ballots in Palm Beach County
were confusing, illegal acording to Florida state law, and (all other
things being equal, which of course they may not be) may have cost
Gore the election, including 19,000 doubly marked ballots, a
ridiculously high vote for Buchanan, and the testimony of the people
who voted.
It's not a question of fraud, but of a poorly designed ballot.
As to the other stuff, any investigation will show a certain amount of
fraud and irregularity on both sides. That happens in any election.
>Yeah, add to this, the actors (e.g. Helen Hunt, Rob Reiner, Martin Sheen,
>Julia Louis-Dreyfuss, Ben Affleck) on the phone banks in Pittsburgh, trying
>to get people to vote for Gore, and in the same breath saying that they're
>not trying to influence people with their "star status." Anybody see the
>hypocrisy here??
>
>Boy, those nasty ol' Republicans are always trying to influence elections.
>You know, in 26 years of voting, I've never seen Republicans outside a
>voting location trying to get people to vote Republican. I *always* see
>Democrats outside a voting location trying to get people to vote Democrat.
>Every time.
>
>In my town, Democrats outnumber Republicans, 2 to 1.
Maybe that's why you see Democrats?
Josh
Kevin Kenney
their mistake, and then punched Gore, possibly trying to cross out in in the
Buchanan punch (in ink), either not knowing, or not being allowed to, get a
replacement card to correct their error.
Dan Riley
> So, have they ever had ballots arranged like this before in Florida, or is
> this a first (as in the first time the 80 year old has seen one like this)?
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20001109/el/eln_florida_ballot_confusion_9.html
County Elections Supervisor Theresa LePore, a Democrat, said it is
the first time the county has listed presidential candidates on
two pages. She said the ballot was drawn up that way because there
were so many candidates and because she wanted the names to be
large enough for older people to read.
So trying to fix one usability issue created another.
http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/09/politics/09PALM.html says that
LePore had "redesigned the county's ballot this year", and
After numerous complaints were received on Tuesday morning,
Ms. LePore issued this directive to the county's 106 precincts:
"Attention all poll workers. Please remind all voters coming in
that they are to vote only for one (1) presidential candidate and
that they are to punch the hole next to the arrow next to the
number next to the candidate they wish to vote for. Thank you!"
So there were complaints from voters before it was known how close
the election was.
Mac Breck
[ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam H. Kerman" <a...@chinet.chinet.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
> As it happens, Mayor Daley's son is Gore's campaign manager.
I love it! :-)
Mac
Dan Riley
> The same could be said to you Joe. Your Emperor has no clothes,
> just Chinese campaign contributions. Oh that's right. He didn't
> *know* he was at a fundraiser. It was all just an innocent,
> unfortunate misunderstanding. Al hasn't been involved with enough
> fundraisers to be able to recognize one when he's in the middle of
> it.
The Hsi Lai Temple event was not a normal fundraiser--*no* funds were
raised at the "fundraiser" while Al Gore was there. This was not the
usual $1000/plate luncheon: lunch was free, there was no entrance fee,
no table collecting tickets, and the speakers did not solicit
donations. Money was collected from some attendees prior to the
event, and Maria Hsia was convicted of raising laundered money from
the temple nuns the day after the event--but none of that money was
raised during the event. While there is lots that is damning about
the Hsi Lai Temple money laundering, the actual event had none of the
trappings of a normal fundraiser, so the argument that Gore should
have immediately recognized it as one is specious.
Richard Bossard
"Jms at B5" <jms...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001108233512...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
> Democratic Party officials also have said sample ballots handed to
Florida
>voters by volunteers as they entered the polling places in precincts in
Palm
>Beach listed the candidates in a different order than what voters saw in
the
>voting booths.
> Democratic National Committee officials say voters complained ballot
>holes for Al Gore were so close to that of Pat Buchanan that many voters
>weren't sure who they had voted for.
>
1) Sorry but I've seen the form. A mildly retarded chimp could figure it
out.
2) The form was reviewed and approved by numerous people in both parties. No
complaints were made.
3) Copies of the form was sent out to all registered voters. No complaints
were made.
4) The type of form is used in other parts of the country, such as Cook
County (Chicago) IL. They don't seem to have problems figuring it out. Are
they that much smarter there?
5) The people left the voting site believign they voted for Gore, but upon
discovering he lost, had a sudden burst of mental clarity and realized they
punched the wrong hole? Give me a break!
6) Beware going down this path. What goes around, comes around.
7) The rhetoric coming from the Al Gore camp would seem to indicate that
Democrats are extremely ungraceful losers.
The time to object the design of the ballot is before and election, not
afterwards when you don't like the results. This is like buying a lottery
ticket, loosing by one number, and demanding the right to retroactivly buy a
new one because you were confused by the form and picked a wrong number.
Come on guys, Al lost. Deal with it.
Rick
Mike Vanpelt
Paul McElligott <paul_mc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <3A0AD5F5...@radix.net>,
> Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> wrote:
>> That is the standard ballot used in local elections, and specimen
>> copies were distributed in advance of the election.
>
>in previous elections. Those elections just weren't close enough for
>it to matter. Now it matters.
15,000 ballots were thrown out in 1996 for the same reason.
Source: CNN Jim Smith, Former Florida Sec of State
--
Yes, I am the last man to have walked on the moon, | Mike Van Pelt
and that's a very dubious and disappointing honor. | mvp.at.calweb.com
It's been far too long. -- Gene Cernan | KE6BVH
Mac Breck
From: "Steve Brinich" <ste...@Radix.Net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 2:33 PM
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
> Terry Rubenstein wrote:
>
> > I'm also rather curious - where I am, employers are required to make
sure
> > your start & end times on an election day provide you with a couple
hours
> > available to vote. Are there no such provisions in US law?
>
> I don't believe there's any federal law, but there may be laws in some
> states.
>
> While on the subject, here's how I'd hold elections if I ran the zoo:
>
> 1. Open the polls over a three-day weekend.
or have Election Day be a national holiday.
> 2. Election officials don't give out any results until all polls close.
Now, THAT'S an excellent idea.
> 3. Have clear authentication requirements for voting, including
> re-registration at least every four years and presentation of ID at the
> polls. Vote fraud would be a felony -- at least a month at the Crossbar
> Hotel for individual perps, at least a few years for larger scale
> tampering.
How about for the organizations who encourage what is essentially voter
fraud (getting people to register, getting them to vote your way, and then
bussing them to the polls to pad the results in favor of their candidate)?
> The exact requirements would be published by the state government,
> like any other law, and disseminated as widely as possible. Attempts to
> mislead voters about the requirements (in either direction, whether to
> draw illegal voters in or to scare off legal voters) would, of course,
> be a form of fraudulent "larger-scale tampering" -- see previous
> paragraph.
and hopefully get harsher penalties.
> 4. Keep the Electoral College (everybody who wants a nationwide recount
> like the one in Florida, or knows where to find enough inspectors to run
> one honestly, please raise your hands...), but have the Maine/Nebraska
> separation into Congressional districts as the norm.
Good idea, each individual state has to agree to it. That would take a lot
of coordination.
Mac
Mac Breck
From: "Alyson L. Abramowitz" <a...@best.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
> Mac Breck wrote:
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > > Meanwhile, Democrats in various states Tuesday night tried
unsuccessfully
> > to
> > > get polls to stay open later to accommodate long lines of voters.
> >
> > I don't know what the rules are on this, but if I got to the door of the
> > voting location at 8:01PM, I'd expect to be turned away. I voted early
to
> > avoid the rush.
> >
>
> The issue isn't whether folks got in line at 8:01 PM. The issue is
whether, if
> they were already in line at 8:00 PM, were they allowed to vote? I don't
know
> Florida's rules but I'd sure hope that the answer would be yes.
If you're in line at the drive-thru of the bank, and you don't get up to the
window before closing time, they put on the red light/closed sign and pull
down the blind.
If however, you're IN the bank (physically in the building), they wait on
you. I's suspect if you'd crossed the threshold of the door by 8:00PM,
you'd be allowed to vote.
Otherwise, with election results coming out before the polls are closed, the
side that's losing could just try to drum up voters until they won.
> Remember that the poll workers are folks who are employed for one day to
do this
> task. While I'm sure they are trained, at some point they are let out on
their
> own to actually do the work. It's distinctly possible that this rule just
> wasn't stressed because no one anticipated it.
Where I vote, the workers are union Democrats, and are the same ones year
after year. It gets passed on down from generation to generation. I'd
think that after doing it for so many years, they know it pretty well.
> I know in this area there were news reports before the election that they
might
> have to combine polling places because they couldn't find enough staff to
run
> them. That would certainly have caused longer lines. If we combine this
with a
> record voter turn out in many, many places (we broke records in this
State),
What would have happened if we'd had 99% turnout for the whole country. The
system would be in shock!
They've got to come up with a better way (e.g. via email).
Mac
Kurtz
"Richard Bossard" <rbos...@compunetix.com> wrote in message
news:3a0b16f9$0$237$73a6...@reader.city-net.com...
>
> "Jms at B5" <jms...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20001108233512...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
>
> > Democratic Party officials also have said sample ballots handed to
> Florida
> >voters by volunteers as they entered the polling places in precincts in
> Palm
> >Beach listed the candidates in a different order than what voters saw in
> the
> >voting booths.
> > Democratic National Committee officials say voters complained ballot
> >holes for Al Gore were so close to that of Pat Buchanan that many voters
> >weren't sure who they had voted for.
> >
>
> 1) Sorry but I've seen the form. A mildly retarded chimp could figure it
> out.
You know, I just keep looking at it, and I keep telling myself, how is it
possible to make this mistake? Frankly, I'd be too embarassed to admit
I was that stupid.
> 2) The form was reviewed and approved by numerous people in both parties.
No
> complaints were made.
AND used in previous elections. IF it was illegal, you'd think after a few
*years*
someone would have said something.
> 3) Copies of the form was sent out to all registered voters. No complaints
> were made.
> 4) The type of form is used in other parts of the country, such as Cook
> County (Chicago) IL. They don't seem to have problems figuring it out. Are
> they that much smarter there?
Maybe they should challenge the ballots in Cook County and other states
that use it. Of course, Gore *won* in those areas.
> 5) The people left the voting site believign they voted for Gore, but upon
> discovering he lost, had a sudden burst of mental clarity and realized
they
> punched the wrong hole? Give me a break!
The only thing that disturbs me is that if a voter made a mistake while
filling out the form and asked for another paper without submitting the
first,
and was refused. In my area, you could do this. But they would NOT have
allowed you to go back inside. Mine was a connect-the-dots style of ballot,
and it was a little confusing. Should we re-check all of those, in case that
MY vote was wrongly cast?
> 6) Beware going down this path. What goes around, comes around.
> 7) The rhetoric coming from the Al Gore camp would seem to indicate that
> Democrats are extremely ungraceful losers.
>
It's in the nature of Al to fight to his last breath. It's his strength, and
weakness.
It's Bush's to wait it out - as one observer mentioned, other men fired
their
campaign managers when they lost New Hampshire - Bush did not.
Steve Brinich
> Wexler said because of the way the ballot was laid out, many people
> had double-punched their cards
Oh, puh-leeze. Even if somebody was incapable of noodling out the
concept of "arrow points from Name A to Hole B", surely they could at
least understand that they're only supposed to punch _one_ of the holes.
--
Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> If the government wants us
http://www.Radix.Net/~steveb to respect the law
89B992BBE67F7B2F64FDF2EA14374C3E it should set a better example
Conterpoint Four: http://www.filker.org/conterpoint/
Mac Breck
> people doing the recount, acting under state law, are doing their best,
> and although I'm sure they aren't all compeltely great people, they for
> the most part are doing a hard job to the best of their ability.
Yes, doing a hard, and extremely tedious job, under a lot of pressure.
> The worse thing IMHO that I could see happening is this getting tied up
> in a lenghty court battle - do we really want lawyers and judges
> deciding this? I don't trust most of them, and I think there are others
> who agree with me.
Definitely!
> As for "stealing" elections, you might want to ask the press about that
> - Florida was called BEFORE all the polls in the state closed - we have
> 2 time zones. I heard stories of people in line turning around and
> leaving. Not to mention the effect of this call on voters in the rest of
> the country where the polls definitely weren't closed. I agree the
> press is free to report as they see fit, but THEY could have had a
> serious impact on this election,
They should act responsibly, and not report results until all the polls are
closed.
> and at the very least I'd like to see
> them exercise self-restraint in the future when it comes to exit polls
> and calling races.
That'll be the day!
> This election was too close to pretend that either
> side might not have been effected negatively by reporting.
True.
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
> Lisa Coulter
>
> Oh, by the way, was talking to a friend of mine, Democratic history prof
> (I think he voted Green this time) and he said that it was known in 1960
> that there was serious scandal in the Illinois voting. Why was nothing
> done then? No law suits, etc. Perhaps, in some ways, Nixon was at least
> at that point a better person tan he is given credit for being.
>
> And the only reason Gore doesn't have a criminal record is that no one
> caught him smoking pot, or if they did he managed to get out of it.
> Really a moral model.
The key words are "getting caught" and it seems that's all that matters
anymore.
Mac
Mac Breck
From: "Dan Riley" <d...@mail.lns.cornell.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
> "Mac Breck" <macb...@access995.com> writes:
> > So, have they ever had ballots arranged like this before in Florida, or
is
> > this a first (as in the first time the 80 year old has seen one like
this)?
>
>
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20001109/el/eln_florida_ballot_confusion_9.h
tml
>
> County Elections Supervisor Theresa LePore, a Democrat, said it is
> the first time the county has listed presidential candidates on
> two pages. She said the ballot was drawn up that way because there
> were so many candidates and because she wanted the names to be
> large enough for older people to read.
>
> So trying to fix one usability issue created another.
Yes. Sounds like damned if you do, damned if you don't (a.k.a. No good deed
goes unpunished.).
> http://www.nytimes.com/2000/11/09/politics/09PALM.html says that
> LePore had "redesigned the county's ballot this year", and
>
> After numerous complaints were received on Tuesday morning,
> Ms. LePore issued this directive to the county's 106 precincts:
> "Attention all poll workers. Please remind all voters coming in
> that they are to vote only for one (1) presidential candidate and
> that they are to punch the hole next to the arrow next to the
> number next to the candidate they wish to vote for. Thank you!"
>
> So there were complaints from voters before it was known how close
> the election was.
So, the campaign workers *were* notified. They should have been able to
provide help (if asked).
Mac
Mac Breck
From: "Dan Riley" <d...@mail.lns.cornell.edu>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
> Before I started paying attention to how people use user interfaces, I
> would have agreed--but having watched very intelligent people get
> confused by interfaces that I thought were completely obvious,
This happened because you were too close to it, right?
> and
> then working through what made the interface confusing, I can easily
> see how that ballot could be confusing to some people.
>
> How confused depends a lot on how the ballot is approached. If you
> start with a high level overview of the ballot (as we all are in this
> context) it's pretty obvious how it is supposed to work. However, if
> you start by locating a particular entry and then try to work out from
> there which hole to punch--as you might in a voting booth--it isn't
> nearly as obvious, since you need the big picture to disambiguate
> exactly what the arrow means.
If you follow from the name to the arrow, horizontally toward the center and
to the punch hole, how can you mess up?
Maybe you had to be there.
Mac
Mac Breck
From: "Joshua P. Hill" <josh...@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Thursday, November 09, 2000 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: ATTN JMS: Opinion on Bush's Win?
> On 9 Nov 2000 09:31:03 -0700, Paul McElligott
> <paul_mc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >In article <3a0a7923...@news.flex.com>,
> > ostens...@hotmail.com (Mark Private) wrote:
> >
> >> That's certainly one possible explanation. But as I understand it,
> >> overvotes aren't all that uncommon. So 19,000 out of 6,000,000 doesn't
> >> seem untoward to me.
> >>
> >
> >Was that 19,000 out of all Florida or just Palm Beach County? If it's
> >just the county, then yeah, that is out of line.
According to some other people on this thread they had 14000-15000 thrown
out votes just like this in 1996, so given the increased turnout this year,
it may NOT be out of line for this county.
Mac