The Shadow's Long-Term Memory Problem
Laura Appelbaum
the whole premise of the episode -- that Morden is acting as an agent for
the Shadows, scouting out a race they can use in their "comeback" appearance
after a thousand years. Now, while the first time around, okay, the first
dozen times around <G> this seemed like a nifty plot devise that eased us
into a mystery we spent a year debating about here on the group, in
retrospect and in context of the "universe" of B5, it didn't seem so smart.
Ok, so Morden doesn't ask Sinclair The Question because 1. the answer they'd
get from him would be highly principled and wouldn't reflect the corrupt
Earth government back home and 2. they're already in cahoots with said
government (at least the Psi Corps division of it) so they don't need his
answer. So far so good. OTOH, why talk to G'Kar? 1000, G'Quon and his
contemporaries, tho' not yet spacefaring themselves, made Narn an unpleasant
enough environment for the Shadows that they left; don't they remember this?
Even *more* significantly, 1000 years ago, Valen and the Anla'Shok (we'll
assume they didn't recognize him in Sinclair, even if Kosh and the Grey
Council have) kicked their sorry butts right off their homeworld and into a
millenium of exile! You mean to tell me they don't remember THAT? Methinks
the Shadows needed a good dose of Gingko Biloba!
LMA
Pål Are Nordal
>
> OTOH, why talk to G'Kar? 1000, G'Quon and his
> contemporaries, tho' not yet spacefaring themselves, made Narn an unpleasant
> enough environment for the Shadows that they left; don't they remember this?
G'Kar didn't start looking for "the enemy" until the Shadows intervened
on the Centauri side. Londo never saw a shadowship until season 4.
> Even *more* significantly, 1000 years ago, Valen and the Anla'Shok (we'll
> assume they didn't recognize him in Sinclair, even if Kosh and the Grey
> Council have)
I'm sure you remember that jms hinted that Kosh knew Valen personally.
> kicked their sorry butts right off their homeworld and into a
> millenium of exile! You mean to tell me they don't remember THAT? Methinks
> the Shadows needed a good dose of Gingko Biloba!
What if the ambassador position had been given to one of the discontent
Minbari... Warrior caste or one similar to the one who contacted the Drakh.
The Shadows were looking for someone to start the ball rolling... Start
a few wars, scare the other races into allying with them. After that...
who cares if they were suddenly remembered by their initial race, by
that time it would be too late.
--
Donate free food with a simple click: http://www.thehungersite.com/
Pål Are Nordal
a_b...@bigfoot.com
Jms at B5
>contemporaries, tho' not yet spacefaring themselves, made Narn an unpleasant
>enough environment for the Shadows that they left; don't they remember this?
>assume they didn't recognize him in Sinclair, even if Kosh and the Grey
>millenium of exile! You mean to tell me they don't remember THAT? Methinks
>the Shadows needed a good dose of Gingko Biloba!
>
No, because in every group there is always someone who can be corrupted by
offering him or her what he/she wants. Many on Narn wouldn't believe G'Kar's
suspicions, remember? So those individuals would be perfect foils for shadow
involvement, step by step, until it's too late to get out.
Races aren't monolithic or always consistent. Some of the most ruthless men in
concentration camps during WW2 were the capos or collaborators, Russians or
other groups who sold out their own kind to survive themselves. We do it; no
reason to suspect someone else wouldn't.
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
(all message content (c) 2000 by
synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
to reprint specifically denied to
SFX Magazine)
Iain Clark
"Laura Appelbaum" <l-app...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:suhurhq...@corp.supernews.com...
> Watching "Signs and Portents" again the other night, I started reflecting
on
> the whole premise of the episode -- that Morden is acting as an agent for
> the Shadows, scouting out a race they can use in their "comeback"
appearance
> after a thousand years. Now, while the first time around, okay, the first
> dozen times around <G> this seemed like a nifty plot devise that eased us
> into a mystery we spent a year debating about here on the group, in
> retrospect and in context of the "universe" of B5, it didn't seem so
smart.
>
> Ok, so Morden doesn't ask Sinclair The Question because 1. the answer
they'd get from him would be highly principled and wouldn't reflect the
corrupt
> Earth government back home and 2. they're already in cahoots with said
> government (at least the Psi Corps division of it) so they don't need his
> contemporaries, tho' not yet spacefaring themselves, made Narn an
unpleasant
> enough environment for the Shadows that they left; don't they remember
this?
The Narn are a powerful force with an intense hatred for the Centauri (which
thay didn't have the last time around) and that bitterness is a powerful
tool which could be twisted to the Shadows goals.
Remember also that even Londo did not know the true nature of his
association with Morden, or his associates, until quite far down the line.
The same would have been true for the Narn.
> Even *more* significantly, 1000 years ago, Valen and the Anla'Shok (we'll
> assume they didn't recognize him in Sinclair, even if Kosh and the Grey
> Council have) kicked their sorry butts right off their homeworld and into
a
> millenium of exile! You mean to tell me they don't remember THAT?
Methinks the Shadows needed a good dose of Gingko Biloba!
>
As for the Minbari, I think that all it takes is one misguided or
unprincipled person to turn the tide. Remember that none of the other
Minbari believed that the Shadows would return. Lenonn was ridiculed for
this belief, and without Dukhat's tutelage and her contact with Kosh, Delenn
probably would not have understood what Morden was. (Her grey council
status also seems to have helped, but since that was secret at this stage
it's possible Morden didn't know, or that he didn't know the grey council
could sense the influence of the Shadows.) Had Morden contacted any other
Minbari he may not have been recognised for what he was.
The Minbari are arrogant and prone to in-fighting between the castes. They
recently emerged from a war with Earth which still threatens to boil over
into violence from time to time. Some Minbari might have succumbed (as for
example with the misguided Minbari who places Delenn's life in peril from
the Drakh in Lines of Communication.)
Morden contacted those who had the power to affect events in Signs and
Portents, but he probably also contacted many others. We know that Lord
Reefa was later working with Morden. So had none of the Ambassadors been
suitable he would have tried others.
Iain
--
"Signs, portents, dreams...next thing
we'll be reading tea leaves and chicken entrails."
Andrew Swallow
<a_b...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>
>The Shadows were looking for someone to start the ball rolling... Start
>a few wars, scare the other races into allying with them. After that...
>who cares if they were suddenly remembered by their initial race, by
>that time it would be too late.
>
Countries (planets) changing sides between wars happens a lot.
For instance WW2 - UK, USA, USSR against Germany.
Cold War - UK, USA, (West) Germany against USSR.
Possibly the Shadows do not hold grudges, except against telepaths and Vorlons.
Andrew Swallow
Iain Rae
>
> In article <39E9FFBB...@bigfoot.com>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E5l?= Are Nordal
> <a_b...@bigfoot.com> writes:
>
> >
> >The Shadows were looking for someone to start the ball rolling... Start
> >a few wars, scare the other races into allying with them. After that...
> >who cares if they were suddenly remembered by their initial race, by
> >that time it would be too late.
> >
>
> Countries (planets) changing sides between wars happens a lot.
WW1 UK,France USA, Italy, Japan against germany
> For instance WW2 - UK, USA, USSR against Germany.
> Cold War - UK, USA, (West) Germany against USSR.
>
> Possibly the Shadows do not hold grudges, except against telepaths and Vorlons.
>
> Andrew Swallow
--
Iain Rae
Computing Officer
Dept. Civil & Offshore Engineering
Heriot-Watt University
Steve Brinich
> OTOH, why talk to G'Kar? 1000, G'Quon and his contemporaries, tho'
> not yet spacefaring themselves, made Narn an unpleasant enough
> environment for the Shadows that they left; don't they remember this?
That was then (when the Narn had "mindwalkers"); this is now (when
they don't).
--
Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> If the government wants us
http://www.Radix.Net/~steveb to respect the law
89B992BBE67F7B2F64FDF2EA14374C3E it should set a better example
Laura M. Appelbaum
news:20001015172325...@ng-fj1.aol.com...
> > OTOH, why talk to G'Kar? 1000, G'Quon and his
> >contemporaries, tho' not yet spacefaring themselves, made Narn an
unpleasant
> >enough environment for the Shadows that they left; don't they remember
this?
> >assume they didn't recognize him in Sinclair, even if Kosh and the Grey
> >Council have) kicked their sorry butts right off their homeworld and into
a
> >millenium of exile! You mean to tell me they don't remember THAT?
Methinks
> >the Shadows needed a good dose of Gingko Biloba!
> >
>
> offering him or her what he/she wants. Many on Narn wouldn't believe
G'Kar's
> suspicions, remember? So those individuals would be perfect foils for
shadow
> involvement, step by step, until it's too late to get out.
>
(or large and powerful portion thereof) to ally themselves with, not just a
key individual or two. The Centauri were perfect for the Shadow's purposes
not because Londo was a pathetic old man looking to reclaim past glory, but
because the entire power structure was *full* of similarly unprincipled,
conniving people. True, there were a couple of people; the first Emperor,
Vir, who really wanted to live in peace, but the vast majority of Centauri
politicians, soldiers, hangers-on were quite willing to do just about
anything for personal glory and the perceived overall glory of the "great"
Centauri Republic -- the raw evil of Vir's almost-betrothed seemed to me to
be perfect evidence of this. Clearly just getting a couple of people to
participate in their plan wouldn't have done the Shadows much good -- they
needed to find a people so blinded by a lust for power or so innately evil
that they'd be willing to follow along, lock, stock and barrel.
But okay, let's say I completely accept your argument, which I don't. <G>
That means Morden goes to Londo, G'Kar and Delenn NOT because they are
Ambassadors for their races and thus represent their people, but because of
who they are personally. That makes my argument about their
short-sightedness (or bad memory) even stronger -- why approach G'Kar, then,
a follower of G'Quon and thus among those people most likely to one day open
his holy book and see that familiar picture, instead of some equally
unprincipled Narn who worships G'Lan and will never get wise to their
history on Narn? And why, oh why speak to Delenn, who's not only a
Religious Caste Satai, but a particularly devout follower of Valen with a
magic triangle in her forehead? Shakiri, *he* might listen. The
self-exiled Tragati crew, maybe. But to go and potentially alert (as they
indeed do) one of the leaders of your historically most dangerous enemy that
you're out and about and looking for trouble? Either they forgot everything
that happened before they went on their forced thousand-year bedtime nap, or
I'm sorry, the Shadows are just not smart.
LMA
Christian McNeill
news:sukpgnq...@corp.supernews.com...
by
> > offering him or her what he/she wants. Many on Narn wouldn't believe
> G'Kar's
> > suspicions, remember? So those individuals would be perfect foils for
> shadow
> > involvement, step by step, until it's too late to get out.
>
> That means Morden goes to Londo, G'Kar and Delenn NOT because they are
> Ambassadors for their races and thus represent their people, but because
of
> who they are personally. That makes my argument about their
> short-sightedness (or bad memory) even stronger -- why approach G'Kar,
then,
> a follower of G'Quon and thus among those people most likely to one day
open
> his holy book and see that familiar picture, instead of some equally
> unprincipled Narn who worships G'Lan and will never get wise to their
> history on Narn? And why, oh why speak to Delenn, who's not only a
> Religious Caste Satai, but a particularly devout follower of Valen with a
> magic triangle in her forehead? Shakiri, *he* might listen. The
> self-exiled Tragati crew, maybe. But to go and potentially alert (as they
> indeed do) one of the leaders of your historically most dangerous enemy
that
> you're out and about and looking for trouble? Either they forgot
everything
> that happened before they went on their forced thousand-year bedtime nap,
or
> I'm sorry, the Shadows are just not smart.
You're assuming that the Shadows knew everything about the ambassaors. If
they did they would not have gone to anyone else but Londo. How would they
know that G'Kar worships G'Quon? Or what Delenn has in her forehead? They
wouldn't simply because this was their first encounter with these people.
Babylon 5 posed a great opportnity for the Shadows to gain "allies".
BTW I don't think anyone knew about the Triangle in Delenn's head, so why
should the shadows know? They sent a harmess human along to each of the
ambasadors until he got the right answer. Why would they thing a Setai
would put her self on Babylon 5, or that she had been altered in some way to
detect Shadows (or shadowagents).
They weren't stupid... just unlucky.
--
==========================================
Christian McNeill
E-mail: chri...@quicknet.com.au
Web: red.underground.com.au
ICQ: 818458
or 48580607
Claudia Mastroianni
: "Jms at B5" <jms...@aol.com> wrote in message
:> No, because in every group there is always someone who can be corrupted
:> by offering him or her what he/she wants. Many on Narn wouldn't believe
:> G'Kar's suspicions, remember? So those individuals would be perfect
:> foils for shadow involvement, step by step, until it's too late to get out.
: Hmm, my impression over the years has been that they were looking for a race
: (or large and powerful portion thereof) to ally themselves with, not just a
: key individual or two.
My impression was always... well, what JMS said above. "What do you want?"
is an intensely personal question, not to be answered by a race's collective
goals, even if you could sum them up.
: The Centauri were perfect for the Shadow's purposes
: not because Londo was a pathetic old man looking to reclaim past glory, but
: because the entire power structure was *full* of similarly unprincipled,
: conniving people.
It wouldn't hurt, certainly, but no, I disagree. What they needed were
manipulable people in positions of power. A senator, an infuential Psi
Cop; an ambassador, an ambitous lord like Refa; an angry Minbari warrior.
If they'd really been trying to conquer territory, perhaps they'd want
cohesive racial makeups to deal with, but really--for the Shadows' purposes
does it matter if the fighting is between races or within races? You can
"evolve a better Narn" from those who survive either kind of conflict.
All you need are places to apply a bit of leverage.
: But okay, let's say I completely accept your argument, which I don't. <G>
: That means Morden goes to Londo, G'Kar and Delenn NOT because they are
: Ambassadors for their races and thus represent their people, but because of
: who they are personally. That makes my argument about their
: short-sightedness (or bad memory) even stronger -- why approach G'Kar, then,
: a follower of G'Quon and thus among those people most likely to one day open
: his holy book and see that familiar picture, instead of some equally
: unprincipled Narn who worships G'Lan and will never get wise to their
: history on Narn?
Why approach humans at all, when most of them would recognize an angelic
figure if they saw one (and be revulsed by a Shadow)? And yet they did.
They were offering people benefits that would always get some individuals
to overlook what they thought they knew about both Shadows and Vorlons.
And I think they came very close, with G'Kar. My impression is that it's
only because his ultimate goal was safety (not glory) that they decided
they couldn't work with him.
But anyway, your basic question is "why approach all the ambassadors",
and I think if it's phrased that way the answer is obvious: they were
in the right place at the right time. Any of them who *were* willing,
as Londo was, would be perfect places in the mechanism to apply leverage
and get things moving. And for Shadow purposes it didn't much matter who.
: And why, oh why speak to Delenn, who's not only a
: Religious Caste Satai, but a particularly devout follower of Valen with a
: magic triangle in her forehead? Shakiri, *he* might listen. The
: self-exiled Tragati crew, maybe. But to go and potentially alert (as they
: indeed do) one of the leaders of your historically most dangerous enemy that
: you're out and about and looking for trouble? Either they forgot everything
: that happened before they went on their forced thousand-year bedtime nap, or
: I'm sorry, the Shadows are just not smart.
Actually, I don't think we've been told enough to know that the Shadows
would be expected to know about Valen and the Grey Council from before
they went to sleep. I'm not certain when the Grey Council was formed
relative to the end of the last battle with the Shadows. Even if they
did, I'm sure they're aware that much can change in a thousand years.
Really, if it hadn't been for Delenn, do we know of any Minbari who would
have taken up the fight after Dukhat died? Talking in-universe, it could
all easily have gone completely differently, and been just another cycle
of the old conflict.
Claudia
--
Learn to pretend there's more than love that matters
lisa_c...@my-deja.com
and his
> > contemporaries, tho' not yet spacefaring themselves, made Narn an
> unpleasant
> > enough environment for the Shadows that they left; don't they
remember
> this?
>
(which
> thay didn't have the last time around) and that bitterness is a
powerful
> tool which could be twisted to the Shadows goals.
>
A;so, and I think this was discussed before - G'kar did get what he
wanted - vis a vis the Centauri, though not for the Narn. The Shadows
would (and do) definitely not care about the fate of the younger races
with whom they ally, just that they have allies to get things going.
> Remember also that even Londo did not know the true nature of his
> association with Morden, or his associates, until quite far down the
line.
> The same would have been true for the Narn.
>
> > Even *more* significantly, 1000 years ago, Valen and the Anla'Shok
(we'll
> > assume they didn't recognize him in Sinclair, even if Kosh and the
Grey
> > Council have) kicked their sorry butts right off their homeworld
and into
> a
> > millenium of exile! You mean to tell me they don't remember THAT?
> Methinks the Shadows needed a good dose of Gingko Biloba!
> >
>
> As for the Minbari, I think that all it takes is one misguided or
> unprincipled person to turn the tide. Remember that none of the other
> Minbari believed that the Shadows would return. Lenonn was ridiculed
for
> this belief, and without Dukhat's tutelage and her contact with Kosh,
Delenn
> probably would not have understood what Morden was. (Her grey council
> status also seems to have helped, but since that was secret at this
stage
> it's possible Morden didn't know, or that he didn't know the grey
council
> could sense the influence of the Shadows.) Had Morden contacted any
other
> Minbari he may not have been recognised for what he was.
>
> The Minbari are arrogant and prone to in-fighting between the
castes. They
> recently emerged from a war with Earth which still threatens to boil
over
> into violence from time to time. Some Minbari might have succumbed
(as for
> example with the misguided Minbari who places Delenn's life in peril
from
> the Drakh in Lines of Communication.)
I've always thought that Delenn's power to sense them had more to do
with her association with Kosh (he was in her at the Battle of the
Line, remember? or at least touched her mind.) then her Grey Council
status. I know, the triangle glows, but who's to say it would have for
any of the others.
Good point about contacting another Minbari. Picture Neroon, or any
other dissafected Warrior Caste, in her post *at that stage*. Not a
pleasant thought.
>
> Morden contacted those who had the power to affect events in Signs and
> Portents, but he probably also contacted many others. We know that
Lord
> Reefa was later working with Morden. So had none of the Ambassadors
been
> suitable he would have tried others.
>
> Iain
>
Clearly they had. They had agents in the Psi Corps (Matters of Honor
and Z'ha'dum) and most likely had already become allies of Clarke.
Morden had him assassinated, after all.
> --
> "Signs, portents, dreams...next thing
> we'll be reading tea leaves and chicken entrails."
>
>
In the end, there is always the sunrise...
Lisa Coulter
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Tammy Smith
big story! I have a question, though. What exactly *does* that
triangle on Delenn's forehead signify? That she is a descendant of
Valen? Or is it a way for her to know when the Shadows will return? Is
it both?
Tammy
Jms at B5
>a follower of G'Quon and thus among those people most likely to one day open
>his holy book and see that familiar picture, instead of some equally
>unprincipled Narn who worships G'Lan and will never get wise to their
>history on Narn?
The error you're making is the assumption that the shadows would know as much
about our characters as you, the audience, do. "Well, *I* know all about him
being a follower of G'Lan, so why don't they?" Because you're watching the
show, they're not. They sent Morden on a fishing expedition to see what they
could find because they've been gone a long time and want a sense of the room,
and who would bite.
As for Delenn...remember, the Vorlons had only RECENTLY made contact with the
Minbari -- which we, as audience members, know but they don't. So they would
naturally be curious to see what the situation was there...remember, some
Minbari didn't even BELIEVE the Shadows were back or would eve be a threat
again.
And finally, you must remember that the shadows didn't just come out and
introduce themselves...they were known only as Morden's associates for a long
time, and would've kept their real identity secret as long as possible, which
would've made it easier to manipulate anyone who "bit" (as was the case with
Londo).
The universe is a big place, and the shadows have been gone a long, long
time...of those endless billions of souls, we see a few of them via B5, and
thus the viewer has knowlege other characters or players don't. That's not a
failing on the part of the other characters.
>But okay, let's say I completely accept your argument, which I don't. <G>
Okay.
But it's my show, so I win.
Claudia Mastroianni
: What's great about B5 is that we have so much to discuss--it's such a
We saw another Minbari (presumably Grey Council?) with a triangle on
his forehead first season (near the end of And the Sky Full of Stars).
And she had it in Sinclair's flashbacks in that episode. It seems
likeliest that the other Minbari was Grey Council and that that's who
has the triangle (though what it's glow signifies isn't clear) than
anything else I can think of.
Claudia
--
i used to say that when it rained god was kissing me.
my fondest memories of the rain, though, were of kissing someone else
in the rain. i wonder if god was jealous.
Brian Watson
> Ok, so Morden doesn't ask Sinclair The Question because 1. the answer they'd
> get from him would be highly principled and wouldn't reflect the corrupt
> Earth government back home and 2. they're already in cahoots with said
> government (at least the Psi Corps division of it) so they don't need his
> answer. So far so good. OTOH, why talk to G'Kar? 1000, G'Quon and his
> contemporaries, tho' not yet spacefaring themselves, made Narn an unpleasant
> enough environment for the Shadows that they left; don't they remember this?
> Even *more* significantly, 1000 years ago, Valen and the Anla'Shok (we'll
> assume they didn't recognize him in Sinclair, even if Kosh and the Grey
> Council have) kicked their sorry butts right off their homeworld and into a
> millenium of exile! You mean to tell me they don't remember THAT? Methinks
> the Shadows needed a good dose of Gingko Biloba!
Laura, I'm deeply shocked that you missed the ONLY real reason why Morden didn't
ask Sinclair the question. Because Kosh stopped him and said, "They are not for
you. Leave here. Now." Or some such. It had nothing to do with PsiCorp or
what answer he might expect. Kosh stopped him from getting to Sinclair
And besides, you probably wouldn't recognize Sinclair as Valen without the Bone
anyway. That, and all us fleshy mammals all look alike to the Shadows.
Mac Breck
[ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ]
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Laura Appelbaum" <l-app...@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2000 11:47 AM
Subject: The Shadow's Long-Term Memory Problem
> Watching "Signs and Portents" again the other night, I started reflecting
on
> the whole premise of the episode -- that Morden is acting as an agent for
> the Shadows, scouting out a race they can use in their "comeback"
appearance
> after a thousand years. Now, while the first time around, okay, the first
> dozen times around <G> this seemed like a nifty plot devise that eased us
> into a mystery we spent a year debating about here on the group, in
> retrospect and in context of the "universe" of B5, it didn't seem so
smart.
>
> Ok, so Morden doesn't ask Sinclair The Question because 1. the answer
they'd
> get from him would be highly principled and wouldn't reflect the corrupt
> Earth government back home and 2. they're already in cahoots with said
> government (at least the Psi Corps division of it) so they don't need his
> answer. So far so good. OTOH, why talk to G'Kar? 1000, G'Quon and his
> contemporaries, tho' not yet spacefaring themselves, made Narn an
unpleasant
> enough environment for the Shadows that they left; don't they remember
this?
There are no more Narn telepaths left. Who's going to give them any trouble
on Narn now? Nobody.
> Even *more* significantly, 1000 years ago, Valen and the Anla'Shok (we'll
> assume they didn't recognize him in Sinclair, even if Kosh and the Grey
> Council have)
Of course, Kosh recognized him. Kosh and Ulkesh were THERE. Kosh and Ulkesh
*told* Jenimer. Who knows if the Shadows ever saw Valen up close? They
might not have.
Mac
Reed Snellenberger
races, we have never found out whether the Centauri had any prior
contact with the Shadows. It was clear that Londo didn't have any
knowledge of them, since he didn't recognize them when he had his dream
sequence and when he was interrogated about the Keffer video.
Can we borrow a clue? We'll return it when we're through with it, of
course...
Reed Snellenberger
Mac Breck
[ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ]
[ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
Wait a minute! They had contact with the Minbari during the last shadow war
1000 years ago. Do you mean that 1000 years ago is "recent" or that only
recently have they been known to the Minbari *as* Vorlons (an alien race),
*not* as Minbari deity?
Mac
snip
Mac Breck
[ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tammy Smith" <gka...@webtv.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Sunday, October 15, 2000 11:51 PM
Subject: Re: The Shadow's Long-Term Memory Problem
> What's great about B5 is that we have so much to discuss--it's such a
> big story! I have a question, though. What exactly *does* that
> triangle on Delenn's forehead signify? That she is a descendant of
> Valen? Or is it a way for her to know when the Shadows will return? Is
> it both?
... or that she has been manipulated by the Vorlons (genetically, or has a
piece or Vorlon inside her) to be able to detect Shadows or Shadow-tech
(e.g. Keepers)??
Mac
Chris Schumacher
Date: 15 Oct 2000 08:47:42 -0700
Lines: 25
>> OTOH, why talk to G'Kar? 1000, G'Quon and his
>>contemporaries, tho' not yet spacefaring themselves, made Narn an unpleasant
>>enough environment for the Shadows that they left; don't they remember this?
>>Even *more* significantly, 1000 years ago, Valen and the Anla'Shok (we'll
>>assume they didn't recognize him in Sinclair, even if Kosh and the Grey
>>Council have) kicked their sorry butts right off their homeworld and into a
>>millenium of exile! You mean to tell me they don't remember THAT? Methinks
>>the Shadows needed a good dose of Gingko Biloba!
>
>No, because in every group there is always someone who can be corrupted by offering him or her what he/she wants.
>Many on Narn wouldn't believe G'Kar's suspicions, remember? So those individuals would be perfect foils for shadow involvement, step by
> step, until it's too late to get out.
But what about the notion of the Shadow's revenge? You mentioned that
one of the reasons that the Shadows helped out the Centauri so much
(in comparison to how they helped out the various non-aligned worlds)
was because they were getting vengeance for all that shit that G'Quon
pulled during their occupation. Were they willing to forego this in
order to get what was essentially the best potentional Agent of Chaos
on the block?
>Races aren't monolithic or always consistent. Some of the most ruthless men in concentration camps during WW2 were the capos or
> collaborators, Russians or other groups who sold out their own kind to survive themselves. We do it; no reason to suspect someone else
> wouldn't.
That reminds me of something else. How come the Shadows never screwed
over the Centauri like they did all the other races that they promised
to help? Was it just because they knew that they'd eventually need to
hide some of their ships there? Or was there something even more
sinister at work? Or did they just never get around to it?
-==Kensu==-
Michael J. Hennebry
Claudia Mastroianni <cma...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote:
>Why approach humans at all, when most of them would recognize an angelic
>figure if they saw one (and be revulsed by a Shadow)? And yet they did.
>They were offering people benefits that would always get some individuals
>to overlook what they thought they knew about both Shadows and Vorlons.
>And I think they came very close, with G'Kar. My impression is that it's
>only because his ultimate goal was safety (not glory) that they decided
>they couldn't work with him.
The reason Londo "won" instead of G'Kar is that what G'Kar wanted
was quite finite. Once all the Centauri bones had been made
into toys for Narn children, G'Kar wouldn't have needed the
shadows anymore. Bringing back the "glory days" of the Centauri
"Republic" kicked over a lot more anthills.
--
Mike henn...@plains.NoDak.edu
Iluvatar is the better part of Valar.
Andrew Swallow
Schumacher) writes:
>
>That reminds me of something else. How come the Shadows never screwed
>over the Centauri like they did all the other races that they promised
>to help? Was it just because they knew that they'd eventually need to
>hide some of their ships there? Or was there something even more
>sinister at work? Or did they just never get around to it?
>
The Shadows "screwed over" the Centauri by giving them the blame for starting
the fight. The other races took their revenge. The Shadows helped the other
races to attack each other. I wonder if they took the opportunity to destroy a
few Centauri ships? The Centauri would think that the other races had
destroyed the ships.
Andrew Swallow
Andrew Swallow
Hennebry) writes:
True. The Narm would not have attacked the Brakiri or the Gaim.
Andrew Swallow
Laura M. Appelbaum
> > why approach G'Kar, then,
> >a follower of G'Quon and thus among those people most likely to one day
open
> >his holy book and see that familiar picture, instead of some equally
> >unprincipled Narn who worships G'Lan and will never get wise to their
> >history on Narn?
>
> The error you're making is the assumption that the shadows would know as
much
> about our characters as you, the audience, do. "Well, *I* know all about
him
> being a follower of G'Lan, so why don't they?" Because you're watching
the
> show, they're not. They sent Morden on a fishing expedition to see what
they
> could find because they've been gone a long time and want a sense of the
room,
> and who would bite.
No, I wasn't assuming they'd know what we know, I was assuming that before
they'd have Morden go off to B5 to interview the Ambassadors, they'd have
him do a little research, a little advance work first! And the details in
question wouldn't be particularly difficult to find out about either --
heck, G'Kar knows in the Gathering that Delenn is Satai, so clearly that's
something a little poking around can easily turn up, and you'd figure
something like G'Kar's religion, (which unlike Delenn and her role on the
Grey Council, is not something he's trying to hide, but something he's proud
of -- it's probably on his official webpage!) would be a simple item to
research on the 23rd Century Intergalactic Internet! (Heck, for that
matter, you can just look over the media reports on the special festival of
dominent religious beliefs that was recently held on B5 and see who led the
Narn demonstration). Especially if, as you are arguing, they *don't* have a
memory problem as I suggested, in which case they know exactly what to have
Morden check into ("make sure you don't approach any followers of G'Quon or
SocialDarwinism Forbid, Valen!") This of course strengthens my second
assertion, which is that the Shadows are really pretty dumb.
>
> As for Delenn...remember, the Vorlons had only RECENTLY made contact with
the
> Minbari -- which we, as audience members, know but they don't.
"Recently?" A thousand years ago is "recently?"
So they would
> naturally be curious to see what the situation was there...remember, some
> Minbari didn't even BELIEVE the Shadows were back or would eve be a threat
> again.
Ok, so some of the Minbari may be skeptical about that *portion* of Valen's
prophecy. But that doesn't mean they don't believe their own historical
records and cultural legacy about Valen leading them and defeating the
Shadows before, and that they aren't wary of running into them again. After
all, unlike the Shadows the Minbari remember important facts. ;D Either
way, it seems to me that having Morden approach ANY of the Minbari, let
alone Delenn, is like thinking you're going to get a Mosad agent to join
Hamas.
>
> And finally, you must remember that the shadows didn't just come out and
> introduce themselves...they were known only as Morden's associates for a
long
> time, and would've kept their real identity secret as long as possible,
which
> would've made it easier to manipulate anyone who "bit" (as was the case
with
> Londo).
Easier when the people in question are Humans and Centauri, who have no
recollection or records of the Shadows' actions and methods historically.
When rumors get to them about weird black spidery things shimmering in and
out of hyperspace without the use of jumpgates that scream inside people's
heads, it doesn't ring a bell because there's no bell to ring. That's not
true for the Narn and especially the Minbari.
>
> The universe is a big place, and the shadows have been gone a long, long
> time...of those endless billions of souls, we see a few of them via B5,
The dumb ones apparently. <G>
>
> >But okay, let's say I completely accept your argument, which I don't. <G>
>
> Okay.
>
> But it's my show, so I win.
Not with me on this argument. :)
LMA
(Good sparing with you, as always.)
Laura M. Appelbaum
"Brian Watson" <ke...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:39E9D6FA...@concentric.net...
> Laura Appelbaum wrote:
>
> > Ok, so Morden doesn't ask Sinclair The Question because 1. the answer
they'd
> > get from him would be highly principled and wouldn't reflect the corrupt
> > Earth government back home and 2. they're already in cahoots with said
> > government (at least the Psi Corps division of it) so they don't need
his
> > contemporaries, tho' not yet spacefaring themselves, made Narn an
unpleasant
> > enough environment for the Shadows that they left; don't they remember
this?
> > Even *more* significantly, 1000 years ago, Valen and the Anla'Shok
(we'll
> > assume they didn't recognize him in Sinclair, even if Kosh and the Grey
> > Council have) kicked their sorry butts right off their homeworld and
into a
> > millenium of exile! You mean to tell me they don't remember THAT?
Methinks
> > the Shadows needed a good dose of Gingko Biloba!
>
didn't
> ask Sinclair the question. Because Kosh stopped him and said, "They are
not for
> you. Leave here. Now." Or some such. It had nothing to do with PsiCorp
or
> what answer he might expect. Kosh stopped him from getting to Sinclair
I don't think that's what Kosh's remark (you can't call it a threat really,
because it turns out to have been *excellent* advice the Shadows absolutely
should have taken) means at all. When he says "they're not for you; leave;
now," I think he's talking about everyone (the major races that is) on B5 --
there is after all no evidence to suggest that Kosh knows precisely who he
has and hasn't spoken to at that point. I think it's "they're not for you,
leave now," because (unspoken part) "we were here first, and they're ours!"
>
> And besides, you probably wouldn't recognize Sinclair as Valen without the
Bone
> anyway. That, and all us fleshy mammals all look alike to the Shadows.
Maybe. We don't know that -- maybe like the Soul Hunters they can see
beyond the flesh at the "soul," to our core. Either way, you just sunk your
own argument about what Kosh's statement means because Kosh DOES know that
Sinclair is Valen, which means he knows damn well that Sinclair can handle
himself; there's not a chance in the Universe that Valen is going to sign on
with the Shadows. (Which is why I think he didn't worry too much about
showing up at all those Council meetings when Sinclair was in charge, but
made sure to attend once Sheridan, an unknown quantity, comes aboard).
Sorry, you ain't gonna catch the High Priestess in a mistake about Sinclair.
;D (Unless jms is so mad at me for harping on the Shadows stupidity and
decides to introduce contrary, unscreened evidence to punish me. Nah. <G>)
LMA
John R. Campbell
>The error you're making is the assumption that the shadows would know as much
>about our characters as you, the audience, do. "Well, *I* know all about him
>being a follower of G'Lan, so why don't they?" Because you're watching the
>show, they're not. They sent Morden on a fishing expedition to see what they
>could find because they've been gone a long time and want a sense of the room,
>and who would bite.
Of course, we're used to suspending the belief in omniscient
detectives (Jessica, for instance?) but we all are comfortable
with believing that _humans_ may be confused or unenlightened.
Part of the reason folks think that shadows- or even the vorlons-
would know everything already (instead of being characters with
the same kind of knowledge _we_ (or really, Joe, _YOU_) do) is
due to their being painted as god-like in power.
But even Lorien, _the_ first one, was not omniscient; While he
may try to predict the future, he was aware that he didn't
_know_ everything.
Of course, I suspect the Shadows (and mayhaps the Vorlons?)
were putting pressure on you to cough up the arc to them... ;-)
--
John R. Campbell Speaker to Machines so...@jtan.com
- As a SysAdmin, yes, I CAN read your e-mail, but I DON'T get that bored!
Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are those of John Campbell alone and
do not reflect the opinions of his employer(s) or lackeys
thereof. Anyone who says differently is itching for a fight!
Laura M. Appelbaum
news:8sdhse$9jm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...>
> Good point about contacting another Minbari. Picture Neroon, or any
> other dissafected Warrior Caste, in her post *at that stage*. Not a
> pleasant thought.
I don't know about that -- remember that in the end, Neroon realizes that
all along, his Heart has been religious. The Warrior Caste isn't happy (to
put it mildly) about bending to the wisdom of The Council and surrendering
at The Line, but "understanding is not required; only obedience." Those
(apparently few) Minbari who couldn't find it in themselves to obey either
committed suicide (as did Sineval, according to Delenn in "Legacies") or
went into self-imposed exile (the crew of the Tragati in "Points of
Departure") or satisfied themselves by making obscure little insults to
Sinclair about the hole in his mind("The Gathering," "Deathwalker"). The
Minbari are raised and groomed by their society, no matter what their caste
is, to obey their superiors, not to make a fuss, never to do anything to
harm one another, etc -- for example recall that in the thousand years since
Valen formed the Council, not a single person before Delenn ever refused to
say as William Tecumseh Sherman so famously did "I will not accept if
nominated and will not serve if elected." To a man (and woman) they believe
so strongly in doing everything they can to maintain unity that in a
thousand years, no Minbari has *ever* killed another -- something Humankind
can't manage for a minute! Back to Neroon specifically, I'm remembering a
post I made a few years ago (I believe it was when Season 1 first reran on
TNT) about how when watching "Legacies" again, I was struck by the beautiful
parallels between him and Sinclair -- both men are career military, both are
troubled, haunted by what happened at The Line, both are patriots (and
Delenn can manipulate both of them with equal ease). No matter what Morden
might have tried to offer Sinclair, he would never have gotten him to turn
against Earth; we can be sure of that because of how many times Sinclair is
willing to make politically incorrect but morally right decisions at his own
expense. We don't get to see quite as much of Neroon, but I think it would
be safe to reach the same conclusion.
OTOH, as I proposed in my "second thought" argument here,the Tragati crew
or Shakiri ("Atonement") might have been more open to Morden's approach.
But I doubt whether they'd be able to get any *other* Minbari to follow them
very far. Not only because of the Minbari's history with the Shadows, not
only because of the arguments I made above, but because the Minbari are the
Vorlon's best students when it comes to "concerning themselves with the
affairs of others."
LMA
Christina
> very far. Not only because of the Minbari's history with the Shadows, not
> only because of the arguments I made above, but because the Minbari are the
> Vorlon's best students when it comes to "concerning themselves with the
> affairs of others."
Ahh, but for the Shadow plans to work, all they needed was to further
the rift between the Minbari warrior and religious castes. Just think
what a mess it would have been for the Army of Light if the height of
the Minbari Civil War had happened a year earlier (or even a few months)?
I'd always figured that a Shadow servant (a Minbari version of Morden)
had contacted one of the warrior caste leaders and manipulated them into
thinking that the civil war was a good idea. It just didn't work. (I
know there is no hard evidence.)
Christina
Iain Clark
"Christina" <fmly...@concentric.net> wrote in message
news:39EC52F7...@concentric.net...
> > But I doubt whether they'd be able to get any *other* Minbari to follow
them
> > very far. Not only because of the Minbari's history with the Shadows,
not
> > only because of the arguments I made above, but because the Minbari are
the
> > Vorlon's best students when it comes to "concerning themselves with the
> > affairs of others."
>
> Ahh, but for the Shadow plans to work, all they needed was to further
> the rift between the Minbari warrior and religious castes. Just think
> what a mess it would have been for the Army of Light if the height of
> the Minbari Civil War had happened a year earlier (or even a few months)?
>
This is the thing. the Shadows wouldn't admit who they were to the Mnbari
but they could sow dissent easily enough. The Monbari Civil War proves that
the dissent was there waiting to eb exploited. And Forell in Lines of
Communication is easily taken in by the Drakh. All it needs is for the
Shadows' intermediary to couch it in the right terms. There'll always be
someone to use as the stick with which to stir up a nest of ants.
Iain
Pål Are Nordal
>
> And the details in
> question wouldn't be particularly difficult to find out about either --
> heck, G'Kar knows in the Gathering that Delenn is Satai, so clearly that's
> something a little poking around can easily turn up,
I think you need to refresh that memorization (or was that /just/ the
first season), because G'Kar never suspects her of being a Satai. He
does however call the Grey Council a bunch of weaklings, at which point
she "requests" he never mention them in her presence again.
> and you'd figure
> something like G'Kar's religion, (which unlike Delenn and her role on the
> Grey Council, is not something he's trying to hide, but something he's proud
> of -- it's probably on his official webpage!) would be a simple item to
> research on the 23rd Century Intergalactic Internet!
And most Christians are proud of their religion. Not that many have
memorized the Bible.
G'Kar's first priority was always trouble making until the Shadows
destroyed the Narn base in "Chrysalis". /That/ was when he started
looking for "the enemy of old".
> > As for Delenn...remember, the Vorlons had only RECENTLY made contact with
> the
> > Minbari -- which we, as audience members, know but they don't.
>
> "Recently?" A thousand years ago is "recently?"
Re-established. See "In the Beginning".
> So they would
> > naturally be curious to see what the situation was there...remember, some
> > Minbari didn't even BELIEVE the Shadows were back or would eve be a threat
> > again.
>
> Ok, so some of the Minbari may be skeptical about that *portion* of Valen's
> prophecy. But that doesn't mean they don't believe their own historical
> records and cultural legacy about Valen leading them and defeating the
> Shadows before, and that they aren't wary of running into them again.
Someone hasn't been paying attention to "In the Beginning" (or "Severed
Dreams" for that matter). It's pretty clear from that one that only a
faction of the Minbari were concerned about the Shadows resurfacing and
attacking them.
> After
> all, unlike the Shadows the Minbari remember important facts.
They just don't care about them.
> ;D Either
> way, it seems to me that having Morden approach ANY of the Minbari, let
> alone Delenn, is like thinking you're going to get a Mosad agent to join
> Hamas.
Morden didn't go around saying "Hi, I'm an agent for the ancient race
many of you fought a 1000 years ago", now did he? And as we've seen on
the show, there *were* Minbari who could fit the Shadows needs, just
exchange help them against the Narn, with help them against the other
castes for a starting point.
> When rumors get to them about weird black spidery things shimmering in and
> out of hyperspace without the use of jumpgates that scream inside people's
> heads, it doesn't ring a bell because there's no bell to ring. That's not
> true for the Narn and especially the Minbari.
And the first time this happened was 1 and a half season later...
--
Donate free food with a simple click: http://www.thehungersite.com/
Pål Are Nordal
a_b...@bigfoot.com
Pål Are Nordal
>
> Either way, you just sunk your
> own argument about what Kosh's statement means because Kosh DOES know that
> Sinclair is Valen, which means he knows damn well that Sinclair can handle
> himself; there's not a chance in the Universe that Valen is going to sign on
> with the Shadows.
Or knows that Sinclair won't sign up with the Shadows, because he will
be there to stop it. Jms has said that Vorlon's have an odd way of
looking at time... IIRC.
Claudia Mastroianni
: "Laura M. Appelbaum" wrote:
:> And the details in
:> question wouldn't be particularly difficult to find out about either --
:> heck, G'Kar knows in the Gathering that Delenn is Satai, so clearly that's
:> something a little poking around can easily turn up,
: I think you need to refresh that memorization (or was that /just/ the
: first season), because G'Kar never suspects her of being a Satai. He
: does however call the Grey Council a bunch of weaklings, at which point
: she "requests" he never mention them in her presence again.
And I must wonder what she thought she was doing.
NEVER MENTION THIS IN MY PRESENCE AGAIN is not a way to keep things hidden
very effectively.
Claudia
--
"like, 1/12th of harvard campus will be exposed to normal successful
lesbians whether they want to or not.
that sounds weirder than i meant it."
Iain Clark
"Claudia Mastroianni" <cma...@fas.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:8sig54$bls$1...@news.fas.harvard.edu...
> P?l Are Nordal <a_b...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> : "Laura M. Appelbaum" wrote:
> :> And the details in
> :> question wouldn't be particularly difficult to find out about either --
> :> heck, G'Kar knows in the Gathering that Delenn is Satai, so clearly
that's
> :> something a little poking around can easily turn up,
>
> : I think you need to refresh that memorization (or was that /just/ the
> : first season), because G'Kar never suspects her of being a Satai. He
> : does however call the Grey Council a bunch of weaklings, at which point
> : she "requests" he never mention them in her presence again.
>
> And I must wonder what she thought she was doing.
>
> NEVER MENTION THIS IN MY PRESENCE AGAIN is not a way to keep things hidden
very effectively.
>
doing posing as an Ambassador on B5?
I disagree that it's something a little poking could have turned up, though.
Christina
G'Kar does like to poke around--he's very good at finding out secrets. I
wonder if the scene where he confronts Delenn was his way of confirming
what he'd learned about her.
Pelzo63
>I could have sworn that G'Kar asks her what a >member of the Grey Council
>is
>doing posing as an Ambassador on B5?
well, the soul hunter DID say a line something lie "what is one of the grey
council doing playing ambassador?". don't remember g'kar saying it though.
..Chris
htpt://pelzo63.terrashare.com
Mac Breck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pelzo63" <pel...@aol.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 12:16 AM
Subject: Re: The Shadow's Long-Term Memory Problem
> "Iain Clark" wrote:
>
> >I could have sworn that G'Kar asks her what a >member of the Grey Council
> >is
> >doing posing as an Ambassador on B5?
>
> well, the soul hunter DID say a line something lie "what is one of the
grey
> council doing playing ambassador?". don't remember g'kar saying it
though.
I don't remember G'Kar saying it either. The first Soul Hunter definitely
said it.
Mac
Mark Maher
<011001c03a8f$4e68cfc0$3dd2...@cobweb.net>...
>
>
>I don't remember G'Kar saying it either. The first Soul Hunter
definitely
>said it.
>
At which point, Delenn suddenly came to the realization that she
just might have done something really stupid and dashed out the
door. Why she didn't anticipate that he'd come after her is
beyond me.
__!_!__
Gizmo
Mac Breck
From: "Mark Maher" <marka...@worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2000 1:45 PM
Subject: Re: The Shadow's Long-Term Memory Problem
I think she was more concerned with word about her being "Satai" getting
out. That would jeopardize her mission of keeping an eye on Sinclair, make
her vulnerable by drawing unwanted attention to her, and so she'd have to
leave B5. After all, Sinclair doesn't know she's Satai.
As far as anticipating that the Soul Hunter would come after her, I think
she didn't know that he was that "unstable" (in the sense of not waiting for
death, but rather causing it).
Mac
Laura M. Appelbaum
That's what I've always thought too. I guess he just didn't count on her
little collection of rings ... lucky for her it was repossessed by the
Minbari Intergalactic Bank for failure to make timely payments. <G>
LMA
>
lisa_c...@my-deja.com
"Iain Clark" <iainj...@dragonhaven.worldonline.co.uk> wrote:
>
> "Christina" <fmly...@concentric.net> wrote in message
> --
> "Signs, portents, dreams...next thing
> we'll be reading tea leaves and chicken entrails."
>
>
In addition, as was pointed out by someone else, Londo didn't realize
who he was in league with until very far down the road. Delenn is
Kosh's student, and very sensitive to the Shadows. Put soneonw else in
her spot - What do you want? the warriors to return to glory... and
things might be very different. They don't have to know (and might
not) *who* they are working with.
Lisa COulter
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
lisa_c...@my-deja.com
sunk your
> own argument about what Kosh's statement means because Kosh DOES know
that
> Sinclair is Valen, which means he knows damn well that Sinclair can
handle
> himself; there's not a chance in the Universe that Valen is going to
sign on
about
> showing up at all those Council meetings when Sinclair was in charge,
but
> made sure to attend once Sheridan, an unknown quantity, comes aboard).
>
> Sorry, you ain't gonna catch the High Priestess in a mistake about
Sinclair.
> ;D (Unless jms is so mad at me for harping on the Shadows stupidity
and
> decides to introduce contrary, unscreened evidence to punish me.
Nah. <G>)
>
> LMA
>
My deepest apologies, High Priestess, but I see know evidence that
Sinclair, prior to much training by the Vorlons, Delenn and others,
could handle Morden - hence I would bet Kosh stopped him. Now it's
true Kosh may have been talking about more than Sinclair - Delenn,
who's been working with them for years springs to mind, as do all the
races, but I don't think we are in fact given a very good reason for
them not to attempt Sinclair. Think, they tried to stop B4 from going
back, so why not contaminate Sincalir *before* (sort of) it all
happened. Hence I would bet Sinclair is at least some what protected
by Kosh.
Lisa Coulter
lisa_c...@my-deja.com
In addition, ok the *Shadows* didn't directly screw over the Centauri,
but the Drakh sure did! Look at WWE and the Centauri tirlogy.
Mac Breck
From: "Laura M. Appelbaum" <l-app...@mindspring.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 2:40 AM
Subject: Re: The Shadow's Long-Term Memory Problem
>
Kosh was probably notified by Delenn that Morden has spoken to her and some
of the other ambassadors. Kosh's encounter with Morden and his Shadow
cronies happened after Morden's appointment with Delenn. Kosh probably
wanted to stop all further contact between Morden and any other ambassadors
or station personnel.
> I think it's "they're not for you,
> leave now," because (unspoken part) "we were here first, and they're
ours!"
> >
> > And besides, you probably wouldn't recognize Sinclair as Valen without
the
> Bone
> > anyway. That, and all us fleshy mammals all look alike to the Shadows.
>
> Maybe. We don't know that -- maybe like the Soul Hunters they can see
> beyond the flesh at the "soul," to our core. Either way, you just sunk
your
> own argument about what Kosh's statement means because Kosh DOES know that
> Sinclair is Valen,
True.
> which means he knows damn well that Sinclair can handle
> himself;
Not necessarily true. Kosh may not have absolute faith that Sinclair won't
be tempted.
> there's not a chance in the Universe that Valen is going to sign on
> with the Shadows.
Kosh may not have as high an opinion of Sinclair as you do. He may think
that this "human" might possibly be tempted. Sinclair isn't Valen YET.
> (Which is why I think he didn't worry too much about
> showing up at all those Council meetings when Sinclair was in charge, but
> made sure to attend once Sheridan, an unknown quantity, comes aboard).
Kosh probably had ways of knowing what was going on at the meetings (maybe
Delenn kept him informed, maybe he could "read" people, maybe he had
surveillance, or had a piece of himself in somebody who attended the
meetings), and showed up when he thought it was necessary. Nobody likes to
attend meetings where they have little or no interest, and aren't needed.
Mac
Mac Breck
From: <lisa_c...@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2000 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: The Shadow's Long-Term Memory Problem
> My deepest apologies, High Priestess, but I see know evidence that
> Sinclair, prior to much training by the Vorlons, Delenn and others,
> could handle Morden
you see now or don't see now ???
> - hence I would bet Kosh stopped him.
You must have meant "don't see now" right?
> Now it's
> true Kosh may have been talking about more than Sinclair - Delenn,
> who's been working with them for years springs to mind, as do all the
> races, but I don't think we are in fact given a very good reason for
> them not to attempt Sinclair.
He was probably next on Morden's list.
> Think, they tried to stop B4 from going
> back, so why not contaminate Sincalir *before* (sort of) it all
> happened. Hence I would bet Sinclair is at least some what protected
> by Kosh.
Agreed.
I wonder how many Shadows Morden had with him this time (as opposed to the
time in I&E). Maybe they only intended to rough Kosh up a bit this time, or
was Kosh stronger now compared to when he was <SPOILERS below>
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
killed by the Shadows who accompanied Morden in I&E?
>From the Lurker's Guide http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/013.html JMS
said:
Q: What did Kosh mean by "they?" And who's on the shuttle?
A: They refers to humans. There was no need to ask Sinclair, and he was
under orders not to. And who is on that shuttle...is an excellent question.
So Morden was under orders NOT to talk to Sinclair. Maybe because the
Shadows already have a foothold in EA?? In Psi Corp.??
Mac
lisa_c...@my-deja.com
"Mac Breck" <macb...@access995.com> wrote:
> Kosh may not have as high an opinion of Sinclair as you do. He may
think
> that this "human" might possibly be tempted. Sinclair isn't Valen
YET.
>
> > (Which is why I think he didn't worry too much about
> > showing up at all those Council meetings when Sinclair was in
charge, but
> > made sure to attend once Sheridan, an unknown quantity, comes
aboard).
>
> Kosh probably had ways of knowing what was going on at the meetings
(maybe
> Delenn kept him informed, maybe he could "read" people, maybe he had
> surveillance, or had a piece of himself in somebody who attended the
> meetings), and showed up when he thought it was necessary. Nobody
likes to
> attend meetings where they have little or no interest, and aren't
needed.
>
> Mac
>
>
I would agree. I'm sure Delenn let him know what was going on. In
addition, it fits the Vorlons profile for him not to get too openly
involved in younger race politics. As for Sheridan, I'm not sure it
was that he was unknown - Valen knew Kosh in the past, remember, and so
undoubtedly Kosh knew about Sheridan and Delenn, at least somewhat,but
remember he is "manipulating" Sheridan to be the leader the Vorlons
need, an excellent reason to keep an eye on him.
About attending meetings unless you have to, couldn't agree more!
Mac Breck
From: <lisa_c...@my-deja.com>
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2000 2:10 AM
Subject: Re: The Shadow's Long-Term Memory Problem
> In article <00d201c03c2e$943c0ee0$41d2...@cobweb.net>,
> "Mac Breck" <macb...@access995.com> wrote:
> > Kosh may not have as high an opinion of Sinclair as you do. He may
> think
> > that this "human" might possibly be tempted. Sinclair isn't Valen
> YET.
> >
> > > (Which is why I think he didn't worry too much about
> > > showing up at all those Council meetings when Sinclair was in
> charge, but
> > > made sure to attend once Sheridan, an unknown quantity, comes
> aboard).
> >
> > Kosh probably had ways of knowing what was going on at the meetings
> (maybe
> > Delenn kept him informed, maybe he could "read" people, maybe he had
> > surveillance, or had a piece of himself in somebody who attended the
> > meetings), and showed up when he thought it was necessary. Nobody
> likes to
> > attend meetings where they have little or no interest, and aren't
> needed.
> >
> > Mac
> >
> >
>
> I would agree. I'm sure Delenn let him know what was going on. In
> addition, it fits the Vorlons profile for him not to get too openly
> involved in younger race politics.
I wonder what the Shadows thought about Kosh being on the council.
> As for Sheridan, I'm not sure it
> was that he was unknown - Valen knew Kosh in the past, remember, and so
> undoubtedly Kosh knew about Sheridan and Delenn, at least somewhat,but
> remember he is "manipulating" Sheridan to be the leader the Vorlons
> need, an excellent reason to keep an eye on him.
I *think* you meant Sinclair, right? We were talking about Sinclair/Valen,
and Kosh's interest in preventing the Shadows from meddling in the timeline
of Sinclair going into the past to become Valen.
> About attending meetings unless you have to, couldn't agree more!
Yes, everybody's been in one of those "meaningless meetings" and wondered
"Why am I here?"
Mac
Michael J. Hennebry
>all along, his Heart has been religious. The Warrior Caste isn't happy (to
My recollection is that this isn't quite true.
Neroon said something like I realize now that my calling IS religious.
There was some discussion at the time regarding whether that was a
real conversion or something he did to help Delenn control events.
Methinks it was both. Neroon changed castes because that was how he
could best serve Minbar.
>nominated and will not serve if elected." To a man (and woman) they believe
>so strongly in doing everything they can to maintain unity that in a
>thousand years, no Minbari has *ever* killed another -- something Humankind
So Delenn says, but I think that she was wrong about that.
The Minbari civil war suggests that Minbari thinking patterns
were not quite that peaceful.
Minbari murderers just didn't get caught. Wishful thinking might
have helped them in that regard.
--
Mike henn...@plains.NoDak.edu
Iluvatar is the better part of Valar.
lisa_c...@my-deja.com
Interesting point...but then, with Londo on the Council, they had their
own in
> > As for Sheridan, I'm not sure it
> > was that he was unknown - Valen knew Kosh in the past, remember,
and so
> > undoubtedly Kosh knew about Sheridan and Delenn, at least
somewhat,but
> > remember he is "manipulating" Sheridan to be the leader the Vorlons
> > need, an excellent reason to keep an eye on him.
>
> I *think* you meant Sinclair, right? We were talking about
Sinclair/Valen,
> and Kosh's interest in preventing the Shadows from meddling in the
timeline
> of Sinclair going into the past to become Valen.
>
Yes, but then there was a comment about Kosh going to meetings because
Sheridan was an unknown. I think this isn't quite accurate: Kosh knew
Valen, Valen knew "the one who will follow" - Sheridan and Delenn.
Lisa
> > About attending meetings unless you have to, couldn't agree more!
>
> Yes, everybody's been in one of those "meaningless meetings" and
wondered
> "Why am I here?"
>
> Mac
>
>
fcc...@my-deja.com
> news:8sdhse$9jm$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...>
>
> > Good point about contacting another Minbari. Picture Neroon, or any
> > other dissafected Warrior Caste, in her post *at that stage*. Not a
> > pleasant thought.
>
that
> all along, his Heart has been religious. The Warrior Caste isn't
happy (to
surrendering
> at The Line, but "understanding is not required; only obedience."
Those
> (apparently few) Minbari who couldn't find it in themselves to obey
either
> committed suicide (as did Sineval, according to Delenn in "Legacies")
or
> went into self-imposed exile (the crew of the Tragati in "Points of
> Departure") or satisfied themselves by making obscure little insults
to
> Sinclair about the hole in his mind("The Gathering," "Deathwalker").
The
> Minbari are raised and groomed by their society, no matter what their
caste
> is, to obey their superiors, not to make a fuss, never to do anything
to
since
Somehow not all turned out that way (as you noted). We don't know just
how many did. Besides, before the arrival of Valen, the Minbari did
kill each other (to put it mildly).
> Valen formed the Council, not a single person before Delenn ever
refused to
> say as William Tecumseh Sherman so famously did "I will not accept if
> nominated and will not serve if elected." To a man (and woman) they
believe
> so strongly in doing everything they can to maintain unity that in a
Some regarded Delenn as a "freak" ("There All the Honor Lies").
> thousand years, no Minbari has *ever* killed another -- something
Humankind
> can't manage for a minute! Back to Neroon specifically, I'm
remembering a
And, of course, no Minbari *ever* lies. (Oh, except when helping a
certain Centauri Ambassador save face. Of course, they'd *never* lie to
save the face of the Minbari race--except in "There All the Honor
*Lies*". ;D)
> post I made a few years ago (I believe it was when Season 1 first
reran on
> TNT) about how when watching "Legacies" again, I was struck by the
beautiful
> parallels between him and Sinclair -- both men are career military,
both are
> troubled, haunted by what happened at The Line, both are patriots (and
> Delenn can manipulate both of them with equal ease). No matter what
Morden
> might have tried to offer Sinclair, he would never have gotten him to
turn
> against Earth; we can be sure of that because of how many times
Sinclair is
> willing to make politically incorrect but morally right decisions at
his own
> expense. We don't get to see quite as much of Neroon, but I think it
would
> be safe to reach the same conclusion.
Now, why would Morden try to get Sinclair to "turn against Earth"? Did
Morden try to get Londo to "turn against Centauri Prime"? Did he offer
Londo dozens of exotic dancers (or the Purple Files of other Houses or
whatever) if Londo would cooperate with his associates in bringing down
Centauri Prime? Was Morden trying to get G'Kar to turn against the Narn
regime? Morden didn't ask anyone to do anything in the episode besides
to answer the question "What do you want?" (The point is, even if
Morden were to talk with Sinclair, he wouldn't have tried to get
Sinclair to do something wrong--not in this episode anyway.)
In fact, there is one thing that Morden could offer Sinclair (if Morden
knew about it) that Sinclair might actually accept. (Not that Morden
tried to offer any of his interviewees anything during the interviews,
but since you brought up the idea...) If Sinclair were to accept this
offer, however, it would prompt the Minbari to kill him, if they ever
found out (assuming that we believe one of Delenn's orders). Any
guesses? <G> I think the High Priestess knows the answer, having
memorized the first season. ;)
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What if Morden offered to fill in that "hole" in Sinclair's mind?
Remember that this is after "And the Sky Full of Stars", so Sinclair
would *definitely* be interested. And there is nothing morally wrong
about trying to find out what the "bastards" ("And the Sky Full of
Stars") did to him during the missing 24 hours, is there? (Again, I am
not claiming that Morden knew about Sinclair's memory loss.)
A Minbari with a silver triangle on his head: "[Sinclair] must *never*
know what happened [to him during those 24 hours]. If he should find
out, he must be killed. Do you understand, Delenn?" ("And the Sky Full
of Stars").
Sinclair's log entry: "I remember. I was taken inside a Minbari
cruiser, interrogated, tortured. Was that the Grey Council? Maybe.
Maybe. Before they surrendered, they must have blanked my memory and
let me go. And Delenn--what was she doing there? What is it they don't
want me to remember? I have to find out. I have to!" ("And the Sky
Full of Stars").
> OTOH, as I proposed in my "second thought" argument here,the Tragati
crew
> or Shakiri ("Atonement") might have been more open to Morden's
approach.
> But I doubt whether they'd be able to get any *other* Minbari to
follow them
> very far. Not only because of the Minbari's history with the Shadows,
not
> only because of the arguments I made above, but because the Minbari
are the
> Vorlon's best students when it comes to "concerning themselves with
the
> affairs of others."
Unless they are sufficiently provoked.
>
> LMA
fcc...@my-deja.com
"Mac Breck" <macb...@access995.com> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <lisa_c...@my-deja.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
> Sent: Saturday, October 21, 2000 8:54 AM
> Subject: Re: The Shadow's Long-Term Memory Problem
>
> > Sinclair, prior to much training by the Vorlons, Delenn and others,
> > could handle Morden
>
> you see now or don't see now ???
I think that's a "no". ;)
> > - hence I would bet Kosh stopped him.
>
> You must have meant "don't see now" right?
>
> > Now it's
> > true Kosh may have been talking about more than Sinclair - Delenn,
> > who's been working with them for years springs to mind, as do all
the
> > races, but I don't think we are in fact given a very good reason for
> > them not to attempt Sinclair.
>
> He was probably next on Morden's list.
>
> > Think, they tried to stop B4 from going
> > back, so why not contaminate Sincalir *before* (sort of) it all
> > happened. Hence I would bet Sinclair is at least some what
protected
> > by Kosh.
>
> Agreed.
See my other post about something that, if Morden were to offer it to
Sinclair, he would probably accept. If Sinclair were to accept it, it
would give the Shadows some valuable information (without Sinclair's
knowledge), and Sinclair might even be grateful to Morden. Furthermore,
if the Minbari ever found out about this, they would kill Sinclair.
> I wonder how many Shadows Morden had with him this time (as opposed to
the
> time in I&E). Maybe they only intended to rough Kosh up a bit this
time, or
> was Kosh stronger now compared to when he was <SPOILERS below>
Add "Z'ha'dum" to the spoiler list.
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> *
> killed by the Shadows who accompanied Morden in I&E?
My guess would be that killing Kosh wouldn't be justified (in the
context of the Vorlon/Shadow game). After all, the Vorlons didn't break
any rules (as far as we know) in this episode. For that matter, Kosh
might have been the one who started the fight this time (trying to chase
the Shadows off the station). If they were to kill Kosh, the Shadows
would be breaking the rules, presumably. Maybe just by being on the
station, the Shadows themselves were already bending the rules a bit.
Kosh was just unable to chase them off by himself. (These statements
are, of course, simply speculations.)
In "Interludes and Examinations", the Vorlons attacked the Shadows
directly (at Kosh's behest), which was probably a serious infringement,
meriting a grave response. ;)
> >From the Lurker's Guide http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/013.html
JMS
> said:
>
> Q: What did Kosh mean by "they?" And who's on the shuttle?
> A: They refers to humans. There was no need to ask Sinclair, and he
was
> under orders not to. And who is on that shuttle...is an excellent
question.
>
> So Morden was under orders NOT to talk to Sinclair. Maybe because the
> Shadows already have a foothold in EA?? In Psi Corp.??
Or maybe because of the rules of the game again?
>
> Mac
fcc...@my-deja.com
> news:20001016001322...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
> > > why approach G'Kar, then,
> > >a follower of G'Quon and thus among those people most likely to one
day
> open
> > >his holy book and see that familiar picture, instead of some
equally
> > >unprincipled Narn who worships G'Lan and will never get wise to
their
> > >history on Narn?
> >
> > The error you're making is the assumption that the shadows would
know as
> much
> > about our characters as you, the audience, do. "Well, *I* know all
about
> him
> > being a follower of G'Lan, so why don't they?" Because you're
watching
> the
> > show, they're not. They sent Morden on a fishing expedition to see
what
> they
> > could find because they've been gone a long time and want a sense of
the
> room,
> > and who would bite.
>
before
> they'd have Morden go off to B5 to interview the Ambassadors, they'd
have
> him do a little research, a little advance work first! And the
details in
I agree that you weren't assuming that they'd know what we know.
However, it seems that you're assuming that we know everything they knew
(or more precisely, we know what they didn't know--even more precisely,
that we know that they didn't know anything about the ambassadors). OK,
JMS's response implicitly validated that assumption, but he does
sometimes admit that his characters could surprise him--so maybe he
doesn't necessarily know everything they know or don't know. ;)
Note that when Delenn asked Morden to leave, he did. Morden didn't
press Delenn like he pressed G'Kar and Londo. Why? Why didn't Morden
continue to question Delenn until he got an answer? Could he have known
things about Delenn that we don't suspect? Could he have known things
about other ambassadors that we don't suspect? Do we have any material
evidence (from the show itself) that he (or his associates) *didn't*
know anything about the ambassadors (or their governments)? Sure they
didn't *appear* to know in the episode, but, as G'Kar said, "No one here
is exactly what he appears" ("Mind War").
Here is one speculation about why Morden left Delenn without getting an
answer. Recall what the Shadow war was *really* about: It's about
"helping" younger races "evolve" through conflict, Justin et al. told
Sheridan in "Z'ha'dum". JMS had said that Justin's account does reflect
the official agenda of the Shadows (and the Vorlons, for that matter).
(See "http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/find/CompuServe/cs96-09/179.html".)
Clearly the Shadows didn't seem to always behave in a way consistent
with that agenda (to say the least). Recall that not all Vorlons are
Kosh, despite Ulkesh's claim in "Walkabout". Kosh cared about the
younger races and actually tried to help them, to the point of giving up
his life for them ("Interludes and Examinations" and "Falling Toward
Apotheosis"). Ulkesh didn't care. So (some of) the Vorlons didn't
always behave in a way consistent with *their* agenda either. Here is a
question for JMS:
Did Kosh have a counterpart among the Shadows? That is, were there
Shadows who actually stayed true to their stated agenda of "helping"
younger races "evolve" (even if that "help" was unasked for and unwanted
by the recipients)?
Assuming that there were (and this is the basis of this speculation), it
doesn't seem so far-fetched that those Shadows wouldn't consider the
Minbari (or any younger race for that matter) as their "enemy". In
fact, they might even consider the Minbari as one of their
"achievements". They might even want to make sure the Minbari were
prepared for the upcoming "selection". (Recall that some Minbari,
notably the Warrior caste, didn't believe that the Shadows would
return.)
As an analogy, suppose that they wanted to train tennis players (or some
other competitive sport). Suppose that one of the players (or teams)
who came out near the top during the last tournament didn't believe that
there would be another tournament and wasn't preparing for one. They
might want to rectify this problem.
So, perhaps, the visit was an intentional wake-up call to make sure that
"evolution" is served. After all, Delenn asked Morden to leave *after*
she sensed the Shadows. Would Morden have left if Delenn asked him to
leave *before* she sensed the Shadows? I don't know. JMS?
Of course, the above is just a speculation; I am not claiming that the
visit was actually meant to be a wake-up call. However, the fact that
Morden didn't behave the same way around Delenn is no speculation, and
that fact suggests that the Shadows might have known more than you
suggest.
> question wouldn't be particularly difficult to find out about either
--
> heck, G'Kar knows in the Gathering that Delenn is Satai, so clearly
that's
> something a little poking around can easily turn up, and you'd figure
> something like G'Kar's religion, (which unlike Delenn and her role on
the
> Grey Council, is not something he's trying to hide, but something he's
proud
> of -- it's probably on his official webpage!) would be a simple item
to
> research on the 23rd Century Intergalactic Internet! (Heck, for that
> matter, you can just look over the media reports on the special
festival of
> dominent religious beliefs that was recently held on B5 and see who
led the
> Narn demonstration). Especially if, as you are arguing, they *don't*
have a
> memory problem as I suggested, in which case they know exactly what to
have
> Morden check into ("make sure you don't approach any followers of
G'Quon or
> SocialDarwinism Forbid, Valen!") This of course strengthens my second
> assertion, which is that the Shadows are really pretty dumb.
> >
> > As for Delenn...remember, the Vorlons had only RECENTLY made contact
with
> the
> > Minbari -- which we, as audience members, know but they don't.
>
> "Recently?" A thousand years ago is "recently?"
>
> So they would
> > naturally be curious to see what the situation was there...remember,
some
> > Minbari didn't even BELIEVE the Shadows were back or would eve be a
threat
> > again.
>
> Ok, so some of the Minbari may be skeptical about that *portion* of
Valen's
> prophecy. But that doesn't mean they don't believe their own
historical
> records and cultural legacy about Valen leading them and defeating the
> Shadows before, and that they aren't wary of running into them again.
After
> all, unlike the Shadows the Minbari remember important facts. ;D
Either
> way, it seems to me that having Morden approach ANY of the Minbari,
let
> alone Delenn, is like thinking you're going to get a Mosad agent to
join
> Hamas.
Again, maybe the point of going to Delenn wasn't trying to get her to
"join" the Shadows' side (whether or not it was meant to be a wake-up
call). As a matter of fact, Morden didn't try to get anyone to "join"
during the interviews. He just asked The Question. Those who didn't
answer satisfactorily (e.g., G'Kar) were simply ignored. (And he didn't
kill them like Sebastian might have done. I guess Morden would be the
Inquirer instead of the Inquisitor. <G>) No, he didn't try to "sell"
anything. He wasn't recruiting like Mr. Welles of the Nightwatch ("The
Fall of Night").
Let's consider the Narns. Given how militant they were in the
beginning, and given their obsession with acquiring new technology ("The
Gathering"), they would be quite ideal for the Shadows. If Morden had
just encouraged G'Kar a bit (e.g., "How would you like to show the
galaxy what the Narn regime could do?"), I wouldn't be surprised if he
could coax an acceptable answer out of G'Kar. Yet he did nothing of the
sort. So, again, it doesn't seem like he was "recruiting" like Mr.
Welles; he wasn't trying to "sell" his associates like Mr. Welles was
selling Nightwatch ("come join us and watch your career take the express
lane").
> > And finally, you must remember that the shadows didn't just come out
and
> > introduce themselves...they were known only as Morden's associates
for a
> long
> > time, and would've kept their real identity secret as long as
possible,
> which
> > would've made it easier to manipulate anyone who "bit" (as was the
case
> with
> > Londo).
>
> Easier when the people in question are Humans and Centauri, who have
no
> recollection or records of the Shadows' actions and methods
historically.
> When rumors get to them about weird black spidery things shimmering in
and
> out of hyperspace without the use of jumpgates that scream inside
people's
> heads, it doesn't ring a bell because there's no bell to ring.
That's not
> true for the Narn and especially the Minbari.
> >
> > The universe is a big place, and the shadows have been gone a long,
long
> > time...of those endless billions of souls, we see a few of them via
B5,
>
> The dumb ones apparently. <G>
> >
> > >But okay, let's say I completely accept your argument, which I
don't. <G>
> >
> > Okay.
> >
> > But it's my show, so I win.
>
> Not with me on this argument. :)
>
> LMA
> (Good sparing with you, as always.)
Douglas
knowledge of the Shadows, or to confirm any suspicions the Shadows might
have about her being Grey Council. After all, we don't know what 'his
associates' said to him. Maybe they can pick up on these things.
Douglas Nicol
fcc...@my-deja.com
"Laura Appelbaum" <l-app...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Watching "Signs and Portents" again the other night, I started
reflecting on
> the whole premise of the episode -- that Morden is acting as an agent
for
> the Shadows, scouting out a race they can use in their "comeback"
appearance
> after a thousand years. Now, while the first time around, okay, the
first
> dozen times around <G> this seemed like a nifty plot devise that eased
us
> into a mystery we spent a year debating about here on the group, in
> retrospect and in context of the "universe" of B5, it didn't seem so
smart.
>
> Ok, so Morden doesn't ask Sinclair The Question because 1. the answer
they'd
> get from him would be highly principled and wouldn't reflect the
corrupt
> Earth government back home and 2. they're already in cahoots with said
> government (at least the Psi Corps division of it) so they don't need
his
> answer. So far so good. OTOH, why talk to G'Kar? 1000, G'Quon and
his
> contemporaries, tho' not yet spacefaring themselves, made Narn an
unpleasant
> enough environment for the Shadows that they left; don't they remember
this?
> Even *more* significantly, 1000 years ago, Valen and the Anla'Shok
(we'll
> assume they didn't recognize him in Sinclair, even if Kosh and the
Grey
> Council have) kicked their sorry butts right off their homeworld and
into a
> millenium of exile! You mean to tell me they don't remember THAT?
Methinks
> the Shadows needed a good dose of Gingko Biloba!
Recall that in "War Without End, Part I" Delenn said that "As Babylon 4
neared completion, the allies of the Shadows recognized it for what it
was, and sent these ships to destroy it."
>
> LMA