Midnight Nation and Neverwhere
Rich Johnston
been a good one.
But concepts in Rising Stars are far too similar for me to concepts in
Neverwhere. It made for an uneasy read- but not in the way I think JMS meant it
to.
Rich Johnston twis...@hotmail.com
All The Rage and Rich's Rumblings at http://www.silverbulletcomicbooks.com
Ramblings 2000 at http://come.to/ramblings & http://www.twistandshoutcomics.com
Selling lots of comics at http://www.geocities.com/evenwood/sale.html
Richard Pace
Rich Johnston wrote:
> I know Neil has worked with JMS on Babylon 5 before and their relationship has
> been a good one.
>
> But concepts in Rising Stars are far too similar for me to concepts in
> Neverwhere. It made for an uneasy read- but not in the way I think JMS meant it
> to.
I think you mean Midnight Nation (as you mentioned in your subject).
Having abandoned RS, managed to catch many of his Twilight Zone episodes, the
little bit of Crusade and watched several B5 reruns I'm starting to suspect that
JMS may very well be a one trick pony (well, two trick pony, his screenwriting book
should be mandatory for every wannabe).
I saw the Neverwhere similarities in the second issue. RS was a mostly flaccid
retread of many what if superheroes existed in our world.
I have high hopes that I'm wrong about MN-- especially since I really like Frank's
art.
Richard
--
The Gallery
http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/
After October 1st it will be found at
http://www3.sympatico.ca/richardpace/
Jms at B5
>Neverwhere. It made for an uneasy read- but not in the way I think JMS meant
>it
>to.
Sorry, the story is in NO way similar to Neverwhere, once you see where it's
going. It's a journey by one man through an America we try to deny, to reclaim
his soul. That ain't Neverwhere in any way, manner, shape or form.
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
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Dwayne McDuffie
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>synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
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>SFX Magazine)
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John McMahon
> It's a journey by one man through an America we try to deny, to
> reclaim his soul. That ain't Neverwhere in any way, manner, shape
> or form.
Yeah, it's set in America for one thing.
J.
Rich Johnston
says...
>
>> far too similar for me to concepts in
>>Neverwhere. It made for an uneasy read- but not in the way I think JMS meant
>>it
>>to.
>
>Sorry, the story is in NO way similar to Neverwhere, once you see where it's
>his soul. That ain't Neverwhere in any way, manner, shape or form.
Yes, I meant Midnight Nation. But concepts expressed in Midnight NAtion seemed
to come right out of Neverwhere. Homeless people falling through the cracks to a
different level of reality where they can't be seen and can only interact with
reality in certain ways. And avoid monsters.
This seemed directly inspired by Neil Gaiman's work in Neverwhere.
I mean, it's *good*. But it felt... what do Americans say? Ah yes, 'skeevy'.
shi...@my-deja.com
jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
> > far too similar for me to concepts in
> >Neverwhere. It made for an uneasy read- but not in the way I think
JMS meant
> >it
> >to.
>
> Sorry, the story is in NO way similar to Neverwhere, once you see
where it's
> going. It's a journey by one man through an America we try to deny,
to reclaim
> his soul. That ain't Neverwhere in any way, manner, shape or form.
>
>
Absolutely not. Neverwhere was a journey by one man through a London we
try to deny, to reclaim his soul.
Glad we've got that sorted out.
Ship
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Justin Bacon
writes:
>Homeless people falling through the cracks to a
>different level of reality where they can't be seen and can only interact with
>reality in certain ways.
This is a fairly common theme in fiction. Everville by Clive Barker;
television's Beauty and the Beast; Goldstein's Dark Cities Underground;
Mieville's King Rat and Perdido Street Station; the Fisher King; Chesbro's
Bone; City of the Lost Children.
(I'm lifting this list largely from the appendix of the UNDERWORLD RPG, which
also explores similar themes.)
I think this is akin to the "Babylon 5 is ripping off Tolkien" silliness -- an
accusation by someone who lacks the breadth of reading to realize that
starships weren't created by Gene Roddenberry.
>I mean, it's *good*. But it felt... what do Americans say? Ah yes, 'skeevy'.
Skeevy? What the hell does "skeevy" mean?
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Prestorjon
television's Beauty and the Beast; Goldstein's Dark Cities Underground;
Mieville's King Rat and Perdido Street Station; the Fisher King; Chesbro's
Bone; City of the Lost Children.>>
Its been a long time since I saw Beauty and the Beast but I don't recall them
actually existing in another level of reality. The Fisher King also didn';t
use that theme instead being about an insane homeless man with a fantasy
oriented psychosis and City of Lost Children contains neither homeless people
nor alternate levels of reality (I wouldn't consider One to be truly homeless
at least not in the way the Fisher King was.).
-----------------
He had been our Destroyer, the doer of things
We dreamed of doing but could not bring ourselves to do,
The fears of years, like a biting whip,
Had cut deep bloody grooves
Across our backs.
-Etheridge Knight
Todd Kogutt: Scavenger
> Yes, I meant Midnight Nation. But concepts expressed in Midnight NAtion seemed
> to come right out of Neverwhere. Homeless people falling through the cracks
> to a
> different level of reality where they can't be seen and can only interact with
> reality in certain ways. And avoid monsters.
>
It's issue #2! I'm not sure JMS has ever told a story that what it
appears to be at the start!
>
> I mean, it's *good*. But it felt... what do Americans say? Ah yes, 'skeevy'.
>
uhm, we don't say that, guv!:-)
---SCAVENGER and all that wot.
in_vale...@hotmail.com
prest...@aol.com (Prestorjon) wrote:
> <<This is a fairly common theme in fiction. Everville by Clive Barker;
> television's Beauty and the Beast; Goldstein's Dark Cities
Underground;
> Mieville's King Rat and Perdido Street Station; the Fisher King;
Chesbro's
> Bone; City of the Lost Children.>>
>
> Its been a long time since I saw Beauty and the Beast but I don't
recall them
> actually existing in another level of reality. The Fisher King also
didn';t
> use that theme instead being about an insane homeless man with a
fantasy
> oriented psychosis and City of Lost Children contains neither
homeless people
> nor alternate levels of reality (I wouldn't consider One to be truly
homeless
> at least not in the way the Fisher King was.).
No, but some play on the idea that there may be a whole different
civilization woven among ours that's ignored or unseen by "normal"
people.
As to the idea of there being another dimentional layer coexisting with
our world, I can see why some would assume "inspiration" from Neil
Gaiman's NEVERWHERE (an excellent novel; your orders for the day: find,
buy, & read! <g>). JMS does afterall like Gaiman's writing, pursued
him to script for Babylon 5, and it's not a long logic leap to assume
he's read the book. But the idea doesn't even come close to
originating there. It's decades older, at least. The stories of H.P.
Lovecraft come to mind, for just one example.
Conceptually there may be some NEVERWHERE similarities, but reading
both, the MIDNIGHT NATION execution is setting them distinctly appart.
Also, the comments of MN being "wordy" seem ridiculous, IMO. I love
the guy's art, but Carlos Pacheco's (with Rafael Marin) FANTASTIC FOUR
is actually wordy, frequently redundant and unsubtlely expositional;
the coming of Jeph Loeb as scripter can only be an improvement. All
the dialogue in MN either moves the story ahead or develops the
characters. This is substantial writing, refeshing in that. It's been
a while since comics took more than 5 or so minutes to read.
Considering the price of comics today, it isn't MN that's doing
something wrong.
scott tilson.
--------------------
Keep an eye out for: ROSE by Jeff Smith & Charles Vess.
http://www.greenmanpress.com/projects/rose/rose.html
http://www.diamondcomics.com/searchdata/editorial/misc_articles/jeff_smi
th/jeff_smith_intv.htm
Prestorjon
civilization woven among ours that's ignored or unseen by "normal"
people.>>
Ture for Beauty and the BEast although in Fisher King that was becuase they
were homeless and not because they were members of a different civilization and
in City of Lost Children there's nothing like that (if you count Kranks family
as being hidden civilization then any movie with a group operating in secret
falls under this theme.)
Jms at B5
Nation book was about, and directed him to the first two issues.
He said he's "utterly unbothered" and that there is nothing in the least bit
worrisome about it and he seemed surprised that I would even mention it.
Which is pretty much the end of that.
jms
Justin Bacon
at B5) writes:
>He said he's "utterly unbothered" and that there is nothing in the least bit
>worrisome about it and he seemed surprised that I would even mention it.
>
>Which is pretty much the end of that.
I thought you knew Usenet better than this, JMS.
;)
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Richard Pace
Jms at B5 wrote:
> Which is pretty much the end of that.
The issue isn't plagiarism as much as, from the first two issues, a surprising and
uncomfortable similarity.
It's akin to the feeling I had when reading McCammon's Swan Song after King's The
Stand -- they were both mining the same vein with the same tools.
At this point there's enough similarity between Neverwhere and Midnight Nation
that I'm happy you're not James Cameron and Neil's not Harlan Ellison . . .
Richard
--
The Gallery
http://webhome.idirect.com/~rpace/
After November 1st it will be found at
http://www3.sympatico.ca/richardpace/
Mark Schlesinger
Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
>Just to set this to rest...I emailed Neil and told him what the whole Midnight
>Nation book was about, and directed him to the first two issues.
>
>worrisome about it and he seemed surprised that I would even mention it.
>
or "utterly unbothered" because you are a friend who he would never sue?
Mark
--
Mark Schlesinger When criminals in this world appear
schl...@primenet.com And break the laws that they should fear
Typical Boring Sig And frighten all who see and hear
The cry goes up both far and near for Underdog
The Reverend Jacob Corbin
> I saw the Neverwhere similarities in the second issue.
There are plot similarities, but saying that MN is some sort of direct translation of
Neverwhere strikes me as as a rather superficial comparison, especially inasmuch as JMS
has been writing horror-style stuff with these themes for the better part of two
decades. Neverwhere was very, very British in tone and execution and MN strikes me as
JMS' stab at contemporary American social issues -- note the way the character in #2
entered the netherworld by getting laid off.
> I have high hopes that I'm wrong about MN-- especially since I really like Frank's
> art.
Me too. And isn't it refreshing how prompt he is? I bet the TC guys were blown away
by the fact that they could actually stick half the pencils for the next issue in the
back of the book...
--
Reverend Jacob
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/shirley/272/
"People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like."
Richard M. Nixon
Mutin' On Up
>In article <20001008193358...@ng-bk1.aol.com>,
>Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Just to set this to rest...I emailed Neil and told him what the whole Midnight
>>Nation book was about, and directed him to the first two issues.
>>
>>He said he's "utterly unbothered" and that there is nothing in the least bit
>>worrisome about it and he seemed surprised that I would even mention it.
>>
> Is he "utterly unbothered" because he doesn't see any similarity
>or "utterly unbothered" because you are a friend who he would never sue?
Or because he wouldn't care if someone drew inspiration from one of
his works even if they weren't his friend?
-Chris
__________________________
copyright violated by deja.com
Kevin J. Maroney
> Or because he wouldn't care if someone drew inspiration from one of
>his works even if they weren't his friend?
I suspect the latter. Gaiman is very much in the "ideas are cheap and
plentiful" camp.
I've still not read _Neverwhere_, but I have not doubt that to the
degree its ideas and the ideas of _Midnight Nation_ overlap, the
treatments of those ideas are very different.
--
Kevin J. Maroney | Unplugged Games | kmar...@ungames.com
"Love doesn't have a point. Love *is* the point."--Alan Moore
Jms at B5
>his works even if they weren't his friend?
No, because MN *doesn't* draw inspiration from his work. There is a long
history of this kind of story in contemporary fantasy novels and stories and
comics that precedes Neverwhere and Midnight Nation by decades.
The problem here is the narrowness of the frame of reference some people
have....
Todd Kogutt: Scavenger
<jms...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> The problem here is the narrowness of the frame of reference some people
> have....
>
So you're saying Midnight Nation isn't taken from NeverWhere? :-)
BTW, I got to say that so far the most effective part of the series is
the way Frank is drawing the Men. They've got to be one of the
creepiest, most disturbing things I've ever seen in comics. brrrrr
---SCAVENGER
a damontury ends
Jms at B5 wrote:
>
> Just to set this to rest...I emailed Neil and told him what the whole Midnight
> Nation book was about, and directed him to the first two issues.
>
> He said he's "utterly unbothered" and that there is nothing in the least bit
> worrisome about it and he seemed surprised that I would even mention it.
does that mean he's achieved enlightenment?
> Which is pretty much the end of that.
>
well, he could always come back as a bhuddhavista.
--
"A jury found them guilty. And it's going to be hard to punish them
any worse, after they get put to death." George W. Bush on the Byrd
murderers, while "lying" like Gore when he said all three were going
to be put to death.
dgolder
Neil Gaiman’s Books Of Magic, and just about as absurd.
Basically, Gaiman writes in a long literary tardition of archetypes ? both
situations and characters.
JMS writes in a long literary tardition of archetypes ? both situations and
characters.
Both JMS and Gaiman share a love of epic fantasy. They write within the same
genre.
Is it any wonder that there are some similarities? After all, aren’t there only
supposed to be seven different plots, anyway? I'm prepared to believe that if
Neverwhere did have any influence on MN then it was subliminal and not
conscious. And at least this discussion may make people go and seek out the
Neverwhere novel (which was a million times better than the BBC series).
Just enjoy the comic.
Justin Bacon
<dave....@futurenet.co.uk> writes:
> After all, aren’t there only
>supposed to be seven different plots, anyway?
No, no, no -- there's only one plot in all of existence: Something happens.
Generally I find these "there is only X number of plots" claims to be pretty
silly. Yes, if you simplify the human existence down to a sufficient level of
abstraction you can claim that there are only X number of plots (and X number
of life experiences). It's pretty silly to do so, but you can do so.
Actually, there is some use to this: For example, Polti's 36 Dramatic
Situations (which is traditionally mis-translated as 36 Plots -- despite the
fact that Polti talks about combining these dramatic situation to make up
plots) has quite a few critical and creative uses.
But the leap from "here are some abstracted categorizations" to "there are only
seven stories and we just keep retelling them" is huge and fallacial.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Orange
little Nicola right by saying:
>In article <39E5A46F...@futurenet.co.uk>, dgolder
><dave....@futurenet.co.uk> writes:
>
>> After all, aren’t there only
>>supposed to be seven different plots, anyway?
>
>No, no, no -- there's only one plot in all of existence: Something happens.
Of course not. There are two: something happens, and nothing happens
(for examples of the latter, see the bulk of Marvel's X-books since at
least 1997).
Christian Henriksson
(ora...@hem.passagen.se)
--
"These are the days of miracle and wonder
And don't cry, baby, don't cry, don't cry"
- Paul Simon
Justin Bacon
<ora...@hem.passagen.se> writes:
>>No, no, no -- there's only one plot in all of existence: Something happens.
>
>Of course not. There are two: something happens, and nothing happens
Nothing happening is something happening.
Justin Bacon
tria...@aol.com
Robert Carnegie
Orange <ora...@hem.passagen.se> wrote:
> On 12 Oct 2000 19:24:27 GMT tria...@aol.com (Justin Bacon) proved
> little Nicola right by saying:
>
> >In article <39E5A46F...@futurenet.co.uk>, dgolder
> ><dave....@futurenet.co.uk> writes:
> >
> >> After all, aren’t there only
> >>supposed to be seven different plots, anyway?
> >
> >No, no, no -- there's only one plot in all of existence: Something
happens.
>
> Of course not. There are two: something happens, and nothing happens
> (for examples of the latter, see the bulk of Marvel's X-books since at
> least 1997).
Well, usually when nothing's happening in an X-book, I seem to
recall they play baseball.
Maybe there's prize money for the year's best-selling sports comic,
and this is how they get it sewn up? Since there isn't an annual
JLA/JSA match since Crisis on Infinite Earths -
Robert Carnegie
Glasgow, Scotland
--
"In a final bid to raise money for the town's hospital, The Messiah
will come to Brecon Cathedral next Saturday." (Brecon & Radnor Express)
Talon The Merciless
says...
>Nothing happening is something happening.
I weep for our public schools.
Talon T M
Absolute Ruler of RACM
Here's your paycheck, It's nothing! Really!
Orange
little Nicola right by saying:
>In article <aaccus47adrfgp0cs...@4ax.com>, Orange
Then you've obviously not read the X-books. :)
Alexei Kosut
> No, because MN *doesn't* draw inspiration from his work. There is a long
> history of this kind of story in contemporary fantasy novels and stories and
> comics that precedes Neverwhere and Midnight Nation by decades.
>
> The problem here is the narrowness of the frame of reference some people
> have....
I agree. I'm one of those people.
After finishing Midnight Nation #1, my immediate reaction was
"Neverwhere!". I hadn't seen any of the discussion here, nor had I any
inkling what Midnight Nation was about prior to picking it up, but I
very definitely had a strong reaction.
That said, it isn't as though the entire comic reminded me of
Neverwhere. It isn't like as I turned every page I thought "Wow, this
is just like when X happened in Neverwhere." Rereading the issue, I
find that the _only_ thing that reminds me of Neverwhere, in fact, is
the very last page.
What it comes down to is this: The last page is distinct and powerful
compared to the first twenty-one. The concept it describes is not
dissimilar to that of Neverwhere (I don't think anyone will dispute
that), and I think the language JMS chose to use happens to resonate
with how people who've read Neverwhere remember it -- the idea itself
certainly didn't originate with Neverwhere, but the words are similar.
Thinking "Midnight Nation is just like Neverwhere" based on a few
words of one page of one issue of the comic is ridiculous, but I think
it's what's happened. It certainly happened to me, until I figured out
what was going on.
--
Alexei Kosut <ako...@cs.stanford.edu> <http://www.stanford.edu/~akosut/>
Rich Johnston
says...
>
>Thinking "Midnight Nation is just like Neverwhere" based on a few
>words of one page of one issue of the comic is ridiculous, but I think
>it's what's happened. It certainly happened to me, until I figured out
>what was going on.
Well, since I started this one, someone seems to have twisted what I was saying.
I am not saying "Midnight Nation is just like Neverwhere", I was observing the
similaririty of one aspect of both the comic and the TV series, as expressed by
one of the characters in issue two and how I felt reading it.
wo...@usa.net
jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
> > far too similar for me to concepts in
> > Neverwhere. It made for an uneasy read- but not in the way I think
> > JMS meant
> >it
> >to.
>
> Sorry, the story is in NO way similar to Neverwhere, once you see
> where it's
> going. It's a journey by one man through an America we try to deny,
> to reclaim
> his soul. That ain't Neverwhere in any way, manner, shape or form.
Sorry to agree with the original poster, but not only did I sense
shades of 'Neverwhere', but also of 'The Matrix' (which is supposed to
be a Invisibles rip-off... so...), if not for anything else, for the
triad of heroes (I know it hardly seems enough to qualify as a
similarity).
Anyway, that's the feeling that #2 left me... I liked #1 much *much*
more, and didn't feel a 'Neverwhere' thing going on.
All in all, for me the worst thing in #2 was the girl's attitude,
trying to be all misterious, but just throwing around mostly empty
lines.
I hope I enjoy #3 a little more! :)
Eric Londaits
(an Argentinian reader, for all that's worth...)
Rich Johnston
>
>In article <20001005180201...@ng-fz1.aol.com>,
> jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
>> > far too similar for me to concepts in
>> > Neverwhere. It made for an uneasy read- but not in the way I think
>> > JMS meant
>> >it
>> >to.
>>
>> Sorry, the story is in NO way similar to Neverwhere, once you see
>> where it's
>> going. It's a journey by one man through an America we try to deny,
>> to reclaim
>> his soul. That ain't Neverwhere in any way, manner, shape or form.
Actually, me again. I never said the story was similar to Neverwhere either. The
specific speech in MN 2 about modern day homeless people being ignored and
disappearing into their own parallel reality where people can't see them and
there are rules that apply to their actions reminded me a lot of Neverwhere. And
I know that the simultaneous-lives, and the disappearing-to-other-realities
stuff isn't new and has precedents. But the first time I saw it applied as a
blantant comment on homelessness in this way was when watching Neverwhere. And I
thought the similarities were a bit weird... I wondered how Neverwhere had
influenced Midnight Nation.
If it helps I enjoy both. And the art on MN is much better than on RS which is a
good thing.