Vorlon Box
Minbariko
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Considering Galen and the technomages' connections to shadowtech, and the fact
that in the Crusade bible, it says that if Galen knew about the apocalypse box,
he'd destroy it, do you think that the box jsut might be Vorlon in nature? It's
certainly got the ambiguous cryptic aspect down. And props to whoever noticed
that the techynomages seem to be the dark mirror of the rangers. I'd always
kinda thought that.
-Michael
James Bell
Minbariko wrote:
Not to mention that it kind of glows in a Vorlonian green color. . .could there be
a piece of a left over Vorlon in it?
Jim
Rick
writes
I always wondered if it was gonna be connected in some way to the
technology in 3rdspace...
--
Cheers,
Rick
Chris Schumacher
>Minbariko wrote:
>
>> I'm probably not the first person to comment on this, but...
>>
>> S
>> P
>> O
>> I
>> L
>> E
>> R
>>
>> S
>> P
>> A
>> C
>> E
>>
>> Considering Galen and the technomages' connections to shadowtech, and the fact
>> that in the Crusade bible, it says that if Galen knew about the apocalypse box,
>> he'd destroy it, do you think that the box jsut might be Vorlon in nature? It's
>> certainly got the ambiguous cryptic aspect down. And props to whoever noticed
>> that the techynomages seem to be the dark mirror of the rangers. I'd always
>> kinda thought that.
>> -Michael
In the Dreamwatch interview, JMS said that the box is older than the
Shadows. The Shadows were slightly older than the Vorlons, hence it's
impossible.
My thinking is that it's an artifact of Lorien's people, since they're
the only ones old enough to have made it.
-==Kensu==-
Chris Schumacher
> And props to whoever noticed
>that the techynomages seem to be the dark mirror of the rangers. I'd always
>kinda thought that.
Ummm... I think that might have been me, I did mention it the day
those scripts came out...
Then again, someone could've hit upon before me...
-==Kensu==-
ambasos...@hotmail.com
James Bell <jam...@naxs.com> wrote:
>
>
> Minbariko wrote:
>
> > I'm probably not the first person to comment on this, but...
> >
> > S
> > P
> > O
> > I
> > L
> > E
> > R
> >
> > S
> > P
> > A
> > C
> > E
> >
> > Considering Galen and the technomages' connections to shadowtech,
and the fact
> > that in the Crusade bible, it says that if Galen knew about the
apocalypse box,
> > he'd destroy it, do you think that the box jsut might be Vorlon in
nature? It's
whoever noticed
> > that the techynomages seem to be the dark mirror of the rangers.
I'd always
> > kinda thought that.
> >
>
> Not to mention that it kind of glows in a Vorlonian green
color. . .could there be
> a piece of a left over Vorlon in it?
>
> Jim
Yeah, I kinda noticed that, too, but I didn't have a chance to record
the episodes when I knew they were on. It could be that Galen's box
did hold a peice of a leftover Vorlon. It could be that Vorlons are
like Espers from US Final Fantasy 3 and turn into something like
Magicite when alowed to die naturally.
--Jesse Shearer
email: ambasos...@hotmail.com or JMSh...@aol.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Jeff Teunissen
>
> Minbariko wrote:
>
> > I'm probably not the first person to comment on this, but...
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
> > Considering Galen and the technomages' connections to shadowtech, and the
> > fact that in the Crusade bible, it says that if Galen knew about the
> > apocalypse box, he'd destroy it, do you think that the box jsut might be
> > Vorlon in nature? It's certainly got the ambiguous cryptic aspect down. And
> > props to whoever noticed that the techynomages seem to be the dark mirror of
> > the rangers. I'd always kinda thought that.
>
> Not to mention that it kind of glows in a Vorlonian green color. . .could
> there be a piece of a left over Vorlon in it?
Actually, Galen is charged by the Technomages with the destruction of
left-over Shadow technology, so this is by no means conclusive. :)
--
| Jeff Teunissen - Pres., Dusk To Dawn Computing - deek at dusknet.dhs.org
| Disclaimer: I am my employer, so anything I say goes for me too. :)
| Core developer, The QuakeForge Project http://www.quakeforge.net/
| Specializing in Debian GNU/Linux http://dusknet.dhs.org/~deek/
Mac Breck
news:20000627200515...@ng-fj1.aol.com...
> I'm probably not the first person to comment on this, but...
>
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> Considering Galen and the technomages' connections to shadowtech, and the
fact
> that in the Crusade bible, it says that if Galen knew about the apocalypse
box,
> he'd destroy it, do you think that the box jsut might be Vorlon in nature?
It's
> certainly got the ambiguous cryptic aspect down. And props to whoever
noticed
> that the techynomages seem to be the dark mirror of the rangers. I'd
always
> kinda thought that.
>
Maybe not Vorlon, but maybe other First One in nature. I don't think Galen
would want to throw it off the ship because he (Galen) is using shadowtech
and therefore hates or fears Vorlon-tech (like the reaction Anna had to the
Whitestar). I think he'd just be trying to protect his friend Gideon from
danger.
The box is supposedly older than the Vorlons or the Shadows, so I doubt it's
Vorlon-tech. Only JMS knows. Maybe he'll tell us someday.
Mac
Pål Are Nordal
>
> I don't think Galen would want to throw it off the ship
According to the Writer's Bible, that's *exactly* what he'd do if he
found out. He'd then want to get as far away from it as possible.
--
Donate free food with a simple click: http://www.thehungersite.com/
Pål Are Nordal
a_b...@bigfoot.com
The Nuclear Marine
> I'm probably not the first person to comment on this, but...
>
> S
> P
> O
> I
> L
> E
> R
>
> S
> P
> A
> C
> E
>
> Considering Galen and the technomages' connections to shadowtech, and the fact
> that in the Crusade bible, it says that if Galen knew about the apocalypse box,
> he'd destroy it, do you think that the box jsut might be Vorlon in nature? It's
> certainly got the ambiguous cryptic aspect down. And props to whoever noticed
> that the techynomages seem to be the dark mirror of the rangers. I'd always
> kinda thought that.
>
> -Michael
No, No,NO. It uses the voice of the owner. It is obviously the entire life of
Gideon compressed into that one space thus knows everything Gideon did and will
know. Lose the box, lose your life. Either that or a kick ass new Playstation
2268
===========================================
Solution for a guilt-free life: If you have to lie to someone, it's their fault.
Mac Breck
news:8jejfu$he1$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> color. . .could there be
> > a piece of a left over Vorlon in it?
> >
>
>
> Yeah, I kinda noticed that, too, but I didn't have a chance to record
> the episodes when I knew they were on. It could be that Galen's box
It isn't Galen's Apocalypse box, it's Gideon's.
> did hold a peice of a leftover Vorlon.
It's older than the Vorlons (and the Shadows), so it can't be Vorlon. It's
just cryptic, so you "think" it's Vorlon.
Mac
Mac Breck
news:39629EFF...@bigfoot.com...
Mac Breck wrote:
>
> I don't think Galen would want to throw it off the ship
According to the Writer's Bible, that's *exactly* what he'd do if he
found out. He'd then want to get as far away from it as possible.
Well, you snipped and completely missed the point.
I said:
I don't think Galen
would want to throw it off the ship BECAUSE he (Galen) is using Shadowtech
and therefore hates or fears Vorlon-tech (like the reaction Anna had to the
Whitestar). I think he'd just be trying to protect his friend Gideon from
danger. Galen probably knows about the box, and that owners of such a box
almost always come to a bad end. As a friend, Galen would want to prevent
that.
I never said Galen would not throw the box off the ship if he knew Gideon
had it. I also have the Crusade Writer's Bible.
Mac
Mac Breck
[ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ]
[ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
Oops! Correction: Nobody knows how old the Apocalypse boxes are (per the
Crusade Bible), except JMS, and he's leaving it a mystery. So it's possible
that it could be Vorlon, or part-Vorlon. I get the feeling that it absorbs
part of it's owner over time. Hence it's speaking in Gideon's voice (See
"And in later instances when the box talks, it's Gideon's/Gary's voice. You
may take that as foreshadowing if you wish." ... from Guide page Racing the
Night.htm on The Lurker's Guide to Babylon 5.)
Mac
Andrew Swallow
<macb...@access995.com> writes:
>
>It's older than the Vorlons (and the Shadows), so it can't be Vorlon. It's
>just cryptic, so you "think" it's Vorlon.
>
How about reversing the thought. Did one of the boxes make
the Vorlons?
Andrew Swallow
Tom Holt
> In article <00a201bfe680$ecce2b00$a4d2...@cobweb.net>, "Mac Breck"
> <macb...@access995.com> writes:
> >
> >It's older than the Vorlons (and the Shadows), so it can't be Vorlon. It's
> >just cryptic, so you "think" it's Vorlon.
> >
Alternatively, it *could* be a rather lame plot device, bought cheap
at the Mythic-Archetypes-R-Us bonanza sale, resprayed Vorlon Realtree
and with the serial numbers filed off, artfully arranged to cover up
a yawning hole in the promised "arc"...
(It was the appearance of this misbegotten object that finally made
me lose patience with Crusade and turn my head away, muttering, "Did
he who made the Vorlons make thee?", or words to that effect, and
mourning for the substantial sum of money I'd wasted on pre-ordering
the videos)
The Arc of the Broken Covenant, even.
James Bell
> It's older than the Vorlons (and the Shadows), so it can't be Vorlon. It's
> just cryptic, so you "think" it's Vorlon.
The age of the box has little to do with what is inside it.
Jim
Iain Clark
"Tom Holt" <lemmi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:200007090...@zetnet.co.uk...
>
>
>
> > In article <00a201bfe680$ecce2b00$a4d2...@cobweb.net>, "Mac Breck"
> > <macb...@access995.com> writes:
>
> > >
It's
> > >just cryptic, so you "think" it's Vorlon.
>
> at the Mythic-Archetypes-R-Us bonanza sale, resprayed Vorlon Realtree
> and with the serial numbers filed off, artfully arranged to cover up
> a yawning hole in the promised "arc"...
>
> (It was the appearance of this misbegotten object that finally made
> me lose patience with Crusade and turn my head away, muttering, "Did
> he who made the Vorlons make thee?", or words to that effect, and
> mourning for the substantial sum of money I'd wasted on pre-ordering
> the videos)
Surely that's a bit like abandoning B5 after A Voice in the Wilderness
because of the tired Deus ex Machina which is the Great Machine?
Actually the Apocalypse Box was in the very first pilot episode - and so is
likely to be an integral part of the arc. It's only the reordering of the
episodes that springs it on us relatively late in the day.
Yes, it's a mythic archetype recycled. So is a great deal of B5. It's
what's done with the archetypes that makes B5 so exceptional, and in all
honesty I don't think we can judge that side of Crusade very fairly in the
few establishing episodes made. B5 took the basic building blacks of
fantasy and space opera, and made them new. It combined them in unusual
ways. It demonstrated great subtlety in undermining what at first seemed
simplistic and traditional. It wove gold from straw.
You may find Crusade unpromising and simplistic (lets face it, some of the
plots aren't very inspired) but to assume that there would never have been
anything more to the series, and that jms therefore betrayed the promise of
B5, is surely to assume the absolute worst? The lesson of B5 is that
sometimes unpromising cliché can be made worthwhile.
If you want reassurance, even a cursory read of the unaired Crusade scripts
shows that the 13 episodes we saw had several more layers than was initially
apparent. The classic jms technique...?
Iain
--
"Signs, portents, dreams...next thing
we'll be reading tea leaves and chicken entrails."
Tom Holt
The message <8kalk7$24ng7$1...@ID-36593.news.cis.dfn.de>
from "Iain Clark" <iainj...@dragonhaven.worldonline.co.uk>
contains these words:
> Surely that's a bit like abandoning B5 after A Voice in the Wilderness
> because of the tired Deus ex Machina which is the Great Machine?
particularly important, so the alleged lameness of the device didn't
really annoy (actually, it didn't bother me particularly; what did
bug me was the way it kinda got forgotten about after such a
substantial buildup). As far as I can see, the Box was intended to be
pivotal (if a box can be pivotal without falling off the table and
busting its lid)
My personal theory is that Mr Straczynski intended to use the box as
a get-out-of-trouble-free card, tucked up his sleeve against the day
when the 'arc' ran out of steam. That's purely my intuitive reaction,
however; I can't offer any evidence to support it.
> Actually the Apocalypse Box was in the very first pilot episode - and so =
> is
> likely to be an integral part of the arc. It's only the reordering of th=
> e
> episodes that springs it on us relatively late in the day.
probably have cancelled my video subscription much earlier and saved
myself $140. Gosh darn those meddlers at TNT!
> Yes, it's a mythic archetype recycled. So is a great deal of B5. It's
> what's done with the archetypes that makes B5 so exceptional,
> If you want reassurance, even a cursory read of the unaired Crusade scrip=
> ts
> shows that the 13 episodes we saw had several more layers than was initia=
> lly
> apparent.
Not to me.
I respect your position on this one, but must agree to differ.
Pål Are Nordal
>
> My personal theory is that Mr Straczynski intended to use the box as
> a get-out-of-trouble-free card, tucked up his sleeve against the day
> when the 'arc' ran out of steam. That's purely my intuitive reaction,
> however; I can't offer any evidence to support it.
To me it seemed like the exact opposite - something that Gideon would
pay dearly for down the road. He was more or less cheating at life,
among other things using the advantage he gained to advance quickly in
Earth Force in spite of his insubordinate nature.
In fact, I believe Larry DiTillio had the box doing some *very* nasty
things in his unfinished script.
Mark D. McKean
<lemmi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> My personal theory is that Mr Straczynski intended to use the box as
> a get-out-of-trouble-free card, tucked up his sleeve against the day
> when the 'arc' ran out of steam. That's purely my intuitive reaction,
> however; I can't offer any evidence to support it.
>From what I saw, it was more likely to be a get-*into*-trouble-free
card...
--
Mark D. McKean - The Quantum Panda - qpa...@iwaynet.net
Jms at B5
>pay dearly for down the road. He was more or less cheating at life,
>among other things using the advantage he gained to advance quickly in
>Earth Force in spite of his insubordinate nature.
Yup. Bigtime.
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
B5 Official Fan Club at:
http://www.thestation.com
(all message content (c) 2000 by
synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
to reprint specifically denied to
SFX Magazine)
Chris Schumacher
wrote:
>My personal theory is that Mr Straczynski intended to use the box as
>a get-out-of-trouble-free card, tucked up his sleeve against the day
>when the 'arc' ran out of steam. That's purely my intuitive reaction,
>however; I can't offer any evidence to support it.
Oh, for Christ's sake.
Are you telling me that, after five years of Babylon 5, JMS would sink
so low as to have the Drakh Plaque get cured in ONE EPISODE, by the
Apocalypse Box telling him where the cure was?
This ain't Star Trek, and JMS isn't Rick Berman.
As for Deus Ex Machina, haven't you noticed that EVERY SINGLE LEAD
that the Apocalypse Box gave Gideon ended up being a trap? Every
single time crew-members died, and only the second time did they gain
anything marginally acceptable to show for it.
-==Kensu==-
Tom Holt
The message <39695f9...@news.tdsnet.com>
from ke...@madison.tdsnet.com (Chris Schumacher) contains these words:
> Are you telling me that, after five years of Babylon 5, JMS would sink
> so low as to have the Drakh Plaque get cured in ONE EPISODE, by the
> Apocalypse Box telling him where the cure was?
That's not what I said, or even what I implied...
My intuition (nothing more than that) is that the Box was there for
Mr S to pull a white rabbit out of every time he was completely
stumped for something to write a show about. It's the equivalent, I
feel, of Chandler's old standby, which goes something along the lines
of "Every time you've completely run out of things to say and you
haven't a clue what to do next, have the door fly open and a guy
burst in waving a gun..."
> As for Deus Ex Machina, haven't you noticed that EVERY SINGLE LEAD
> that the Apocalypse Box gave Gideon ended up being a trap?
What, both of them?
FWIW, the tape arrived today and I've just seen 'Memories of War' and
'Visitors From Down The Street'. 'Memories' tends to make me feel I
was right about the Box.
As for 'Visitors'; nah. Let other pens dwell on guilt and misery.
That was worse than the worst of the DS9 Ferengi episodes. Worse
(even) than 'Captain Proton'. Three cheers for nice Mr Turner, for
putting this embarrassment of a show out of our misery.
Iain Clark
> As for 'Visitors'; nah. Let other pens dwell on guilt and misery.
> That was worse than the worst of the DS9 Ferengi episodes. Worse
> (even) than 'Captain Proton'. Three cheers for nice Mr Turner, for
> putting this embarrassment of a show out of our misery.
Opinions of this episode seem to vary wildly.
Many people adore it - often the ones who didn't like the rest of Crusade!
Personally I'm not fond of it since it's *so* unsubtle a pastiche of the
X-Files (although those elements of Crusade which remain intact are true to
character.) I think the comparison with DS9's Ferengi episodes is a good
one. And I share your opinion of those!
But since I also like a great deal of DS9 I can't really agree with the
conclusions you draw about Crusade either :-)
Iain Clark
>
> The message <8kalk7$24ng7$1...@ID-36593.news.cis.dfn.de>
> from "Iain Clark" <iainj...@dragonhaven.worldonline.co.uk>
> contains these words:
>
>
> > Surely that's a bit like abandoning B5 after A Voice in the Wilderness
> > because of the tired Deus ex Machina which is the Great Machine?
>
> Valid point; except that the Great Machine turned out not to be
> particularly important, so the alleged lameness of the device didn't
> really annoy (actually, it didn't bother me particularly; what did
> bug me was the way it kinda got forgotten about after such a
> substantial buildup). As far as I can see, the Box was intended to be
> pivotal (if a box can be pivotal without falling off the table and
> busting its lid)
Well, the Great Machine was *intended* to be pivota, and seemed so at the
time of AVitW. That it ended up not being used because John Shuck was too
busy starring in a Broadway musical is neither here nor there. And it did
play a big role in the War Without End two-parter.
> My personal theory is that Mr Straczynski intended to use the box as
> a get-out-of-trouble-free card, tucked up his sleeve against the day
> when the 'arc' ran out of steam. That's purely my intuitive reaction,
> however; I can't offer any evidence to support it.
>
>
> > Actually the Apocalypse Box was in the very first pilot episode - and so
=
> > is
> > likely to be an integral part of the arc. It's only the reordering of
th=
> > e
> > episodes that springs it on us relatively late in the day.
>
> Again, point taken; and had the Bix shown up in the pilot, I could
> probably have cancelled my video subscription much earlier and saved
> myself $140. Gosh darn those meddlers at TNT!
I think the main point I'm trying to make is: given jms' proven skills at
deftly overturning our worst fears, shouldn't we cut him the tiniest bit of
slack when his intentions are in doubt?
> I respect your position on this one, but must agree to differ.
Let's shake on it :-)
Michael Harper
before the end of the series?
jmh
Mac Breck
> As for 'Visitors'; nah. Let other pens dwell on guilt and misery.
> That was worse than the worst of the DS9 Ferengi episodes. Worse
> (even) than 'Captain Proton'. Three cheers for nice Mr Turner, for
> putting this embarrassment of a show out of our misery.
At this point I think JMS had realized that TNT was going to torpedo
Crusade, and he was going to get in a few shots of his own.
Mac
Timothy A. McDaniel
>particularly important, so the alleged lameness of the device
>didn't really annoy (actually, it didn't bother me particularly;
>what did bug me was the way it kinda got forgotten about after
>such a substantial buildup).
My apologies if someone has already mentioned that the actor who
played Draal becaome busy on Broadway, so they couldn't use him
as they may have intended.
--
Tim McDaniel is tm...@jump.net; if that fail,
tm...@us.ibm.com is my work account.
"To join the Clueless Club, send a followup to this message quoting everything
up to and including this sig!" -- Jukka....@hut.fi (Jukka Korpela)
Geoduck
wrote:
>
>The message <39695f9...@news.tdsnet.com>
> from ke...@madison.tdsnet.com (Chris Schumacher) contains these words:
>
>
>> Are you telling me that, after five years of Babylon 5, JMS would sink
>> so low as to have the Drakh Plaque get cured in ONE EPISODE, by the
>> Apocalypse Box telling him where the cure was?
>
>That's not what I said, or even what I implied...
>
>My intuition (nothing more than that) is that the Box was there for
>Mr S to pull a white rabbit out of every time he was completely
>stumped for something to write a show about. It's the equivalent, I
>feel, of Chandler's old standby, which goes something along the lines
>of "Every time you've completely run out of things to say and you
>haven't a clue what to do next, have the door fly open and a guy
>burst in waving a gun..."
<PEDANTIC>
I believe it was *two* men with guns.
</PEDANTIC>
--
Geoduck
geo...@usa.net
http://www.olywa.net/cook
Pål Are Nordal
>
> FWIW, the tape arrived today and I've just seen 'Memories of War' and
> 'Visitors From Down The Street'. 'Memories' tends to make me feel I
> was right about the Box.
Let's view some of B5 season 1 with as much leeway as you're willing to
give Crusade:
G'Kar = Bad Guy
Londo = Comic Relief
Kosh = Mysterious fortune cookie spouter. Obviously has little purpose
other than to dispose of inconvenient plot points ( like the immortality serum).
> Three cheers for nice Mr Turner, for
> putting this embarrassment of a show out of our misery.
Aren't you contradicting your last paragraph in
news:200007100...@zetnet.co.uk here?
BTW - Can I have your free video tokens? :-P
Tom Holt
The message <396B80FD...@bigfoot.com>
from =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E5l?= Are Nordal <a_b...@bigfoot.com>
contains these words:
> Let's view some of B5 season 1 with as much leeway as you're willing to
> give Crusade:
> G'Kar = Bad Guy
> Londo = Comic Relief
> Kosh = Mysterious fortune cookie spouter. Obviously has little purpose
> other than to dispose of inconvenient plot points ( like the immortality serum).
- The difference being that by the end of ' Midnight On The Firing
Line', both Londo and G'Kar are fully-rounded, multi-faceted,
credible, fascinating characters and you want to know more about
them; and Kosh - well, Kosh has always been Kosh, if you see what I mean...
Now let's consider Crusade, after eleven episodes and one crossover
fanfic that got filmed by accident. Eilerson has, I admit, intrigued
me a little, mostly because of the scene (the best moment in the
whole series, IMHO) when he dances with Dureena - like, if he's just
an annoying little creep, how come he can dance? - and the actor,
whose name escapes me, didn't give up trying to make something of the
part right up to the end. In spite of the indignities inflicted on
her by the wardrobe department (note; buying costumes second-hand
from the Xena people is commendably frugal but ultimately
counter-productive; I kept expecting Dureena to start yodelling and
throwing a frisbee) Ms Dobro made a pretty neat terylene purse out of
the pig's ear JMS wrote for her, but that's left me wanting to see
her acting in something half-decent, rather than making me care a
damn about what happened to Dureena Nafil. The character of Galen
intrigued me mightily in 'Call To Arms', but by the time we'd got to
'Memories of War' he irritated me more than Byron ever did; I think
this is partly because Peter Woodward went onto auto-pilot after that
pitiful episode with his dad, and partly because JMS realised he
hadn't got a clue what he wanted to do with the character. Gideon
lacked stature from the moment he first appeared; it didn't help that
Cole frequently seemed to forget he wasn't playing Mike Brady any
more, but he was miscast from the outset, and the character had one
less dimension that a straight line. I'd have liked to see far more
of Lochley; in fact, I'd have liked to have seen her as the lead,
with the show set on B5 and renamed 'Babylon 5, season 6'; and
written by JMS, rather than his evil, burnt-out twin brother Skippy.
There was some other guy playing a telepath, and a tall woman, but I
can't remember anything about them.
For me, that's the crux of the matter. The done-to-death storylines,
mildewed mythic archetypes and aimless narrative drift wouldn't have
mattered a damn (just as they didn't matter a damn in the lazier
episodes of B5) if the characters had been worth bothering with. It
was the characters that made B5 a masterpiece, and it was their
development that made the story-arcs anything more than soap-opera.
The walk-ons in B5 had more and better characterisation than the
leads in Crusade; which is why Crusade was a failure, and couldn't
ever be fixed, even if it somehow got back into production.
> BTW - Can I have your free video tokens? :-P
If only you'd asked earlier, you'd have been welcome to them; haven't
been saving them, I'm afraid (in fact, I don't think there were any
in with the first couple of tapes)
djl...@magic.mv.com
>Now let's consider Crusade, after eleven episodes and one crossover
>fanfic that got filmed by accident. Eilerson has, I admit, intrigued
You're making one mistake here - it's more like two halves
independantly produced that took great pains to try and mesh them
together into a cohesive story.
>whole series, IMHO) when he dances with Dureena - like, if he's just
>an annoying little creep, how come he can dance? - and the actor,
You never met anyone like that in real life? Annoying little creeps
tend to have even more annoying habits that challenge stereotypes and
make you wonder if the inital characterizations were accurate in the
first place.
>counter-productive; I kept expecting Dureena to start yodelling and
>throwing a frisbee) Ms Dobro made a pretty neat terylene purse out of
>the pig's ear JMS wrote for her, but that's left me wanting to see
>her acting in something half-decent, rather than making me care a
>damn about what happened to Dureena Nafil. The character of Galen
Couldn't disagree with you more. You were looking at someone with a
lot of promise there. The interplay between her and Galen hinted at
what might have been. But then, wouldn't you have a chip on your
shoulder if your race had been wiped out for no reason more than
testing a weapon?
>intrigued me mightily in 'Call To Arms', but by the time we'd got to
>'Memories of War' he irritated me more than Byron ever did; I think
>this is partly because Peter Woodward went onto auto-pilot after that
>pitiful episode with his dad, and partly because JMS realised he
>hadn't got a clue what he wanted to do with the character. Gideon
Not a clue? The guy had him planned out for who knows how many
seasons of the 5 year arc!
>lacked stature from the moment he first appeared; it didn't help that
>Cole frequently seemed to forget he wasn't playing Mike Brady any
And you can say that after watching the (as of now) final episode?
>more, but he was miscast from the outset, and the character had one
>less dimension that a straight line. I'd have liked to see far more
And you can judge this on the basis of seeing approximately 10% of
what the story was supposed to be?
>of Lochley; in fact, I'd have liked to have seen her as the lead,
>with the show set on B5 and renamed 'Babylon 5, season 6'; and
>written by JMS, rather than his evil, burnt-out twin brother Skippy.
I'd rather see "Crusade: The Series TNT Didn't Mess With"
>There was some other guy playing a telepath, and a tall woman, but I
>can't remember anything about them.
You claimed to watch the show and didn't know that the telepath was
the first officer (with his own background) and the 'tall woman' was
the doctor? What show were you watching and how long did you watch
it?
>For me, that's the crux of the matter. The done-to-death storylines,
>mildewed mythic archetypes and aimless narrative drift wouldn't have
Narrative drift???? Mildewed mythic archetypes? Umm.. Isn't *every*
drama something that could be guilty of that? Or do you just like to
throw out polysyllabic criticism whether it's applicable or not?
>mattered a damn (just as they didn't matter a damn in the lazier
>episodes of B5) if the characters had been worth bothering with. It
>was the characters that made B5 a masterpiece, and it was their
>development that made the story-arcs anything more than soap-opera.
You really think there would be no development of Dureena? What about
Gideon when that box comes to haunt him even more?
>The walk-ons in B5 had more and better characterisation than the
>leads in Crusade; which is why Crusade was a failure, and couldn't
>ever be fixed, even if it somehow got back into production.
By what definition are you declaring it a failure?
+----/|-------------------------------------+-------------------+
| | | djl...@wildwizards.net \ |
| / | djl...@msn.com \ |
| ( ) http://www.wildwizards.net \ ICQ# 8976662 |
+--`--' ----------------------------------------+---------------+
lcou...@stetson.edu
"Mac Breck" <macb...@access995.com> wrote:
> "Tom Holt" <lemmi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:200007101...@zetnet.co.uk...
>
> > As for 'Visitors'; nah. Let other pens dwell on guilt and misery.
> > That was worse than the worst of the DS9 Ferengi episodes. Worse
> > putting this embarrassment of a show out of our misery.
>
> Crusade, and he was going to get in a few shots of his own.
>
> Mac
>
>
I may be alone in this. but I really thought Visitors was quite
amusing - I'd always thought B5 / X-Files crossovers had potential.
Lisa Coulter
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Tom Holt
The message <396d7144...@news.mv.com>
from djl...@magic.mv.com contains these words:
> Tom Holt <lemmi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >Now let's consider Crusade, after eleven episodes and one crossover
> >fanfic that got filmed by accident. Eilerson has, I admit, intrigued
> You're making one mistake here - it's more like two halves
> independantly produced that took great pains to try and mesh them
> together into a cohesive story.
answer any point you succeed in making.
> >whole series, IMHO) when he dances with Dureena - like, if he's just
> >an annoying little creep, how come he can dance? - and the actor,
> You never met anyone like that in real life? Annoying little creeps
> tend to have even more annoying habits that challenge stereotypes and
> make you wonder if the inital characterizations were accurate in the
> first place.
character in the show who might be capable of growth and development.
He also had four of the show's intentionally funny lines.
> Couldn't disagree with you more. You were looking at someone with a
> lot of promise there. The interplay between her and Galen hinted at
> what might have been.
> >pitiful episode with his dad, and partly because JMS realised he
> >hadn't got a clue what he wanted to do with the character. Gideon
> Not a clue? The guy had him planned out for who knows how many
> seasons of the 5 year arc!
> >lacked stature from the moment he first appeared; it didn't help that
> >Cole frequently seemed to forget he wasn't playing Mike Brady any
> And you can say that after watching the (as of now) final episode?
over here yet. I'll rephrase that; in the eleven episodes and the
bizarre practical joke I've seen so far, Cole frequently seemed to forget [&c]
> I'd rather see "Crusade: The Series TNT Didn't Mess With"
enjoy the works of Harry Turtledove, who does that kind of thing
rather well. One of his premises - Earth being invaded by
super-intelligent spacefaring lizards in the middle of WW2 - provides
excellent scope for this sort of fanciful retconning, and is about as
likely as anybody making any further episodes of 'Crusade'.
> >more, but he was miscast from the outset, and the character had one
> >less dimension that a straight line. I'd have liked to see far more
> And you can judge this on the basis of seeing approximately 10% of
> what the story was supposed to be?
else would be mere speculation (see above, under Turtledove, H)
> >mattered a damn (just as they didn't matter a damn in the lazier
> >episodes of B5) if the characters had been worth bothering with. It
> >was the characters that made B5 a masterpiece, and it was their
> >development that made the story-arcs anything more than soap-opera.
> You really think there would be no development of Dureena? What about
> Gideon when that box comes to haunt him even more?
down, and genuine character development. The latter was impossible in
these two cases, since there was nothing there to develop. Bricks
without straw, and all that.
> By what definition are you declaring it a failure?
Iain Clark
>
> The message <396d7144...@news.mv.com>
> from djl...@magic.mv.com contains these words:
>
> > Tom Holt <lemmi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > >pitiful episode with his dad, and partly because JMS realised he
> > >hadn't got a clue what he wanted to do with the character. Gideon
Okay, I know we agreed to differ on this, but just one more point! I
honestly don't mind that you don't like Crusade. Each to his own. (No,
*really* <g>)
What baffles me is these emotive statements you keep coming out with. You
say that you're basing your opinion on what you saw on the screen, but you
seem to have reached a very quick decision and then judged everything else
through an unusually thick layer of interpretation.
To decide after the second episode that Peter Woodward gave up on the whole
character, on the strength of your own perception that the script was bad
seems...just a tad extreme?
You've said in the past (paraphrasing) 'the actors had clearly given up by
this point' about the last few episodes. But those episodes were made
irst - there was nothing to cause the actors to give up. Fair enough, you
may not like their performances, but you're assuming an awful lot.
The same goes for comments which assume, as a baseline, that jms has
abandoned all forward planning ability. The reason? Some of the plot
devices aren't very inspired. Well, I agree that jms is capable of writing
poorly at times - but all experience (and if I'm allowed to mention them,
the unfilmed scripts) suggest strongly that he did indeed have a strong
direction planned for the series (and that of all the characters Galen was
the one with the *clearest* direction.)
I'd rather we just stuck to "I didn't like it because the writing was bad
and the acting mediocre" and have done with it! I might not agree, but at
least I'd feel I knew where you were coming from.
(I hope this doesn't come across as hostile, as I don't mean it to. It's
just that on a great many other topics you seem...well...fairly reasonable!
<g>)
Iain Clark
<lcou...@stetson.edu> wrote in message news:8khthm$h8r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> In article <00c301bfea67$18594d60$41d2...@cobweb.net>,
> "Mac Breck" <macb...@access995.com> wrote:
> >
> > > As for 'Visitors'; nah. Let other pens dwell on guilt and misery.
> > > That was worse than the worst of the DS9 Ferengi episodes. Worse
> > > (even) than 'Captain Proton'. Three cheers for nice Mr Turner, for
> > > putting this embarrassment of a show out of our misery.
> >
> > At this point I think JMS had realized that TNT was going to torpedo
> > Crusade, and he was going to get in a few shots of his own.
Visitors was made fourth - things looked moderately rosy at this point.
> I may be alone in this. but I really thought Visitors was quite
> amusing - I'd always thought B5 / X-Files crossovers had potential.
I'm not a fan of cross-overs. I do understand the appeal, but I think the
Universes are usually a bad fit. They're self-conscious, do neither series
any favours, and confuse those who only follow one of them.
In this case I do think it was amusing in places. It was at least as funny
as most of the Ferengi episodes of DS9 (damning with faint praise!) but it
wasn't Crusade. It was, as Tom says, fan-fiction of a kind which, whilst
entertaining enough, doesn't feel right on screen..
Mark Maher
>
>The message <396B80FD...@bigfoot.com>
> from =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E5l?= Are Nordal <a_b...@bigfoot.com>
>contains these words:
>
Firing
>Line', both Londo and G'Kar are fully-rounded, multi-faceted,
>credible, fascinating characters and you want to know more
about
>them; and Kosh - well, Kosh has always been Kosh, if you see
what I mean...
>
crossover
>fanfic that got filmed by accident.
Well, geez, Tom; don't sugar-coat it. Tell us what you think!
Personally, I liked Crusade, although it didn't grab me in the
same way that Babylon 5 did right off the bat. I don't know
whether that was due to the stories or due to the fact that I
knew up-front that the series had been cancelled.
Subconsciously, I may have been holding back from committing
fully to it. It did have its soft spots for sure, but I don't
think that it merited the use of tactical nukes, as your
previous post used.
So please stop throwing gasoline about the newsgroup.
__!_!__
Gizmo
djl...@magic.mv.com
>
>
>The message <396d7144...@news.mv.com>
> from djl...@magic.mv.com contains these words:
>> You're making one mistake here - it's more like two halves
>> independantly produced that took great pains to try and mesh them
>> together into a cohesive story.
>
>
>If you'd care to rephrase that in coherent English, I'll try and
>answer any point you succeed in making.
The fact that you have the jms-written 'pure' episodes and the ones
that he wrote under the gun from TNT. Those are the two halves I
mean.
>> Couldn't disagree with you more. You were looking at someone with a
>> lot of promise there. The interplay between her and Galen hinted at
>> what might have been.
>
>
>Mercifully, we were spared that. Three cheers for Mr Turner!
If you *had* to look for a parallel, I thought Dureena's struggle
would be like that of G'Kar - trying to overcome the bloodlust in
exchange for more enlightenment.
>> >pitiful episode with his dad, and partly because JMS realised he
>> >hadn't got a clue what he wanted to do with the character. Gideon
>
>
>> Not a clue? The guy had him planned out for who knows how many
>> seasons of the 5 year arc!
>
>
>So JMS maintains. I'm basing my opinion on what I saw on the screen.
You saw an incomplete product.
>> And you can judge this on the basis of seeing approximately 10% of
>> what the story was supposed to be?
>
>
>Yes. As previously noted, my opinion is based on what I saw. Anything
>else would be mere speculation (see above, under Turtledove, H)
You stated, as if it were fact, for example, that jms didn't know
where he was going with characters.
>> By what definition are you declaring it a failure?
>
>
>By what possible definition could it reasonably be described as a success?
Did I say it was a success?
I call it an 'incomplete'.
Tom Holt
The message <8kicjv$2hi2n$1...@ID-36593.news.cis.dfn.de>
> What baffles me is these emotive statements you keep coming out with.
I'm not trying to argue objective facts here. I'm expressing my
opinion; nothing more than that. My opinion is based on my subjective
reaction to the show.
If you enjoyed Crusade, good luck to you; there's never enough joy in
the world at the best of times, and if you were able to get pleasure
out of the show, that's great.
My beef isn't with people who enjoyed Crusade; their enjoyment
benefits them and does me no harm whatsoever (and trying to stop
someone from doing or enjoying something just because you don't
personally approve of it is a crime I can't forgive in others; it
certainly wasn't my intention, and if I've given the appearance of it
here, I apologise without reserve)
The point I was trying to make is that putting pressure on SciFi or
anybody else to get Crusade revived is -
(a) almost certainly futile, since the suits will most probably
*perceive* it as a failure and therefore likely to cost them money
rather than making them money;
(b) counterproductive, because (as I've argued previously) it reduces
our chances of getting *any* further projects set in the B5 universe.
The futility doesn't bother me - if you want to fight for a lost
cause, good luck to you; I've fought for enough of 'em myself over
the years, God knows. The counterproductivity does bother me, for the
reasons stated.
If I believed there was Buckley's chance of Crusade being revived,
I'd have kept my face shut from the outset, since arguing against
such revival would constitute the very serious crime referred to
above. But; since the likelihood of seeing any new Crusade episodes
is roughly on a par with those of me diving into a lake of boiling
pigshit to save Tony Blair from drowning, I don't consider that my
objections to the Save-Crusade campaign constitute any serious
infringement of someone else's right to freedom of enjoyment.
Iain Clark
>
<snip>
> If I believed there was Buckley's chance of Crusade being revived,
> I'd have kept my face shut from the outset, since arguing against
> such revival would constitute the very serious crime referred to
> above. But; since the likelihood of seeing any new Crusade episodes
> is roughly on a par with those of me diving into a lake of boiling
> pigshit to save Tony Blair from drowning, I don't consider that my
> objections to the Save-Crusade campaign constitute any serious
> infringement of someone else's right to freedom of enjoyment.
>
LOL
Actually I'm not affiliated with the Save Crusade campaign or any of its
subsidiary companies :-)
I just 'appen to like the series. I agree with you that the chances of its
revival are practically non-existent.
Even a new B5 movie is unlikely. But try as I might to be realistic, those
blue sky quotes from Jerry Doyle do spark just a hint of anticipation for
some form of new B5 product....
Pål Are Nordal
>
> and Kosh - well, Kosh has always been Kosh, if you see what I mean...
And the Box is the box, if you see what I mean...
(Do I get another banana now?)
Tom Holt
The message <8kir9a$2hsae$1...@ID-36593.news.cis.dfn.de>
> Even a new B5 movie is unlikely. But try as I might to be realistic, those
> blue sky quotes from Jerry Doyle do spark just a hint of anticipation for
> some form of new B5 product....
Stranger things have happened... The ratings for the TNT TV movies
were pretty respectable, as Are has pointed out; and a TV movie
doesn't represent quite the same terrifying degree of commitment of
money/resources/time as a series, either for suits or actors.
As far as B5:TNG goes, at the moment it's about as likely as an
honest lawyer. After a couple of well-received new TV flicks,
however, those odds could change dramatically.
There's also the question of Mr Straczynski's attitude to such a
project. Maybe he wouldn't want to tackle yet another 5-year arc, but
might be tempted by the thought of doing another standalone or two.
Hell, JMS could even wrap up the Drakh plague story in a TV movie
("President Sheridan, stunned by the news that the Excalibur has
collided with an asteroid and blown up with the loss of all hands,
enlists the help of his former colleagues...")
James Bell
reviving Crusade or having more Babylon 5 (be it movies, mini-series', or another
series) which would be preferable? I, for one, am with Tom on this. Even though
I enjoyed Crusade, I would much rather see some of the B5 threads expanded and
wrapped up (G'kar/Lyta, Lennier, Next Generation, etc.).
Jim
Tom Holt
Pål Are Nordal
>
> as Are has pointed out
If yer gonna persist in using my name, write Paul or something. It's
better then continually showing how alphabetically challenged you and
your newsreader is.
Ps.
:-P
:-P
:-P [ Pretend your looking at you-know-who's you-know-what .sig ]
:-P
:-P
:-P
Iain Reid
"Mark Maher" <marka...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:To3b5.6229$qX6.4...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> So please stop throwing gasoline about the newsgroup.
Well, I'm about to throw another gallon in by saying that, personally,
Babylon 5 didn't grab me right off the bat as many people have cliamed it
did for them. Personally, I don't really see how it could - and suspect
that some of these claims are made through the rosy coloured glasses of
hindsight.
In fact, when I first saw it - I thought it was a poor man's Star Trek. But
I stuck with it mainly because I lived in the UK and didn't have satelite TV
so SF shows were few and far between. However, I wasn't all that consistent
a viewer - missing bits here and there (including, tradgically, The Fall of
Night the first time round). Then about half way through Season 2 I
realised what was happening - how the story was developing and I began to
sit up and take notice. Then WWE happened and I was totally hooked. I
began buying the tapes to rewatch the begining and then, and only then, did
I see the real genius of the first season. Now I own every episode and
Telemovie on WHV.
With Crusade I loved it from the begging...perhaps because I was expecting
(after having read so much negative plublicity) something totally awful. But
I had watched all of my tapes about half-a-dozen times now, including three
time back-to-back and I needed more of B5. I settled down to watch and was
immediatley taken back to the B5 universe and loved every minute of it.
Some of the characters seemed a little weak - but then so did a lot of the
ones in S1 B5. But what it felt like to me was what season 1 of B5 would
have been like if JMS had already been writing stories in that universe for
half a decade. The universe was perfectly formed and the characters were
developing. As it should be in a spin-off.
Oh, and I /loved/ Galen. The way his character sat and quietly mocked
everything that the others were doing whith a childish glee totally
enchanted me. I thought YES! JMS has finally mastered writing characters
who are consistently funny (no more "Kosh-Who"s, Light-bulb changing
Centauri or Zoot-Zoots ever again). CTA didn't do him justice, but the
series brought out a very British sense of humour in him.
Tom Holt
The message <396D1A1E...@bigfoot.com>
> Tom Holt wrote:
> >=20
> > as Are has pointed out
> If yer gonna persist in using my name, write Paul or something. It's
> better then continually showing how alphabetically challenged you and
> your newsreader is.
A note on grammar; that last line should, of course, read; "...how
alphabetically challenged you and your newsreader *are*"
Or, if you really insist; "...how alphabetically challenged you and
your newsreader *paul*"
(Can I have my banana back now? Pretty please?)
Pål Are Nordal
>
> In this case I do think it was amusing in places. It was at least as funny
> as most of the Ferengi episodes of DS9 (damning with faint praise!) but it
> wasn't Crusade. It was, as Tom says, fan-fiction of a kind which, whilst
> entertaining enough, doesn't feel right on screen..
I haven't seen it yet, but to me it sounded like an "off-format" show.
Meaning it's the show seen through a skewed perspective, like "A View
from the Gallery". Some people view them as bastardizations of the show,
others like them a lot. I'll reserve judgement until I see it for myself.
Shaz
"James Bell" <jam...@naxs.com> wrote in message
news:396D04D3...@naxs.com...
> This discussion has led me to a question: If it does come to a choice
between
> reviving Crusade or having more Babylon 5 (be it movies, mini-series', or
another
> series) which would be preferable? I, for one, am with Tom on this. Even
though
> I enjoyed Crusade, I would much rather see some of the B5 threads expanded
and
> wrapped up (G'kar/Lyta, Lennier, Next Generation, etc.).
>
> Jim
I agree. I simply could not get any sympathy for the Crusade characters,
while I DID have a lot of immediate sympathy (within two episodes) for the
B5 ones. And, as Sue says, there was something else in B5. Not sure what it
was, but there was something, and it was there right from the start. That
something I never found in Crusade.
> Tom Holt wrote:
<snip>
> > Hell, JMS could even wrap up the Drakh plague story in a TV movie
> > ("President Sheridan, stunned by the news that the Excalibur has
> > collided with an asteroid and blown up with the loss of all hands,
> > enlists the help of his former colleagues...")
Hee hee! Now THIS I could go for!
Shaz
Pål Are Nordal
>
> (Can I have my banana back now? Pretty please?)
Dammit! My evil scheme to bankrupt you though banana handouts has been foiled!
But it does not matter, for The House has instructed all our members to
buy several copies of all your books, and do horrible, unspeakable
thinks to them.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
Tom Holt
The message <396D2E50...@bigfoot.com>
> buy several copies of all your books, and do horrible, unspeakable
> thinks to them.
> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
JBONETATI
> But it does not matter, for The House has instructed all our members to
> buy several copies of all your books, and do horrible, unspeakable
> thinks to them.
> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
OK. You win. Keep the goddamn banana.>>
Proving conclusively that in today's publishing climate an author will do
*anything* to get *anybody* to buy several copies of his books <g>.
Seriously though, if somebody in the States wanted to pick up one of your
books, Tom, which would you suggest?
Thanks,
Jan
Paul Harper
wrote:
>OK. You win. Keep the goddamn banana.
No no no. Make 'im buy the hardback versions. Come on man, think
"income" :-)
Paul.
--
A .sig is all well and good, but it's no substitute for a personality
" . . . SFX is a fairly useless publication on just
about every imaginable front. Never have so many jumped-up fanboys done so
little, with so much, for so long." JMS.
Alison Hopkins
Shaz wrote in message <8kj6ej$2tv$1...@lure.pipex.net>...
>
><snip>
>
>> > Hell, JMS could even wrap up the Drakh plague story in a TV movie
>> > ("President Sheridan, stunned by the news that the Excalibur has
>> > collided with an asteroid and blown up with the loss of all hands,
>> > enlists the help of his former colleagues...")
>
>Hee hee! Now THIS I could go for!
>
Providing it has three hours of pure Sheridan, eh? :) :)
Ali
Paul Harper
wrote:
>Shaz wrote in message <8kj6ej$2tv$1...@lure.pipex.net>...
>>Hee hee! Now THIS I could go for!
>Providing it has three hours of pure Sheridan, eh? :) :)
Shaz can write. I'm sure she's already done the shower scene :-)
Tammy Smith
air with the Crusade story, but I miss the B5 cast! I would love to see
them all together again. I guess combining the two would be an
interesting way to do things. I think Crusade should've had a stronger
connection to B5, anyway. As I remember, TNT wanted Crusade without
many references to B5 (big mistake, in my opinion). It would have been
interesting to see B5 characters in guest-appearances (like the episode
Lyta *should* have been in), or even as members of the crew.
Tammy
Iain Clark
between
> reviving Crusade or having more Babylon 5 (be it movies, mini-series', or
another
> series) which would be preferable? I, for one, am with Tom on this. Even
though
> I enjoyed Crusade, I would much rather see some of the B5 threads expanded
and
> wrapped up (G'kar/Lyta, Lennier, Next Generation, etc.).
>
Personally I'd rather have more B5 than Crusade, because I've lived with the
B5 characters for five long years and more. They have more depth, more
layers and more emotion in them than the Crusade mob ever had a chance to
generate - though I think they were mostly fine actors who were beginning to
work well as an ensemble. I don't think there was inherently anything
missing in Crusade that wouldn't have been there given time, but I just have
more invested in B5 at this point.
I have mixed feelings because I know that however hard it is starting a huge
novel or making new friends, the effort is usually repaid down the line. I
feel the same would have been true of Crusade. And I admire any attempt to
do something different instead of playing it safe and rehashing old ground.
But if future B5-related product were to come in TV-Movie sized chunks I'd
rather spend those limited hours with old friends than have to make new
ones, who couldn't possibly hope to compete in the short time available.
Sue
>On 13 Jul 2000 10:15:34 -0600, "Alison Hopkins" <fn...@dial.pipex.com>
>>Providing it has three hours of pure Sheridan, eh? :) :)
>
>Shaz can write. I'm sure she's already done the shower scene :-)
Shower scene, bedroom scene.......:)
Sue
<rlh>
"Are those the only choices?"
Babs, "Chicken Run"
Iain Clark
"Tammy Smith" <gka...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:1274-396...@storefull-131.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Yes, it's funny but in the order they're shown I don't think the
Interstellar Alliance, the Rangers, White Stars etc. get even a name-check
for many episodes. I remember thinking that the whole thing felt a bit
dislocated.
Whereas in the original pilot, Racing the Night, we have direct references
to both President Sheridan and the Alliance, and we actually see a Ranger
and a White Star. Only subtle changes, but they make a real difference to
the richness of a series.
Rick
r.ezesurf.co.uk> writes
>In fact, when I first saw it - I thought it was a poor man's Star Trek. But
>I stuck with it mainly because I lived in the UK and didn't have satelite TV
>so SF shows were few and far between. However, I wasn't all that consistent
>a viewer - missing bits here and there (including, tradgically, The Fall of
>Night the first time round). Then about half way through Season 2 I
>realised what was happening - how the story was developing and I began to
>sit up and take notice. Then WWE happened and I was totally hooked. I
>began buying the tapes to rewatch the begining and then, and only then, did
>I see the real genius of the first season. Now I own every episode and
>Telemovie on WHV.
Absolutely right... I missed most of the first season first time around
on the basis of exactly that judgement, only realising how good it was
on being dragged back to Chrysalis by my bother's constant badgering.
And, as someone who totally failed to read the quality of B5's humble
beginnings, I'm not about to make that mistake all over again. Anyway,
for me there were far more signals of greatness in the first half of
Crusade's first season than there were in the equivalent section of B5.
OK, there was nothing to compare with Midnight on the Firing Line or By
Any Means Necessary, but otherwise Crusade was out in front. (And I've
gotta admit that, though, I prefer Sinclair to Gideon - just - I think
Gary Cole's performance was way better than O'Hare's. Sorry.)
Anyway, what this comes down to is that, for me, B5's story is pretty
much complete, except as an occasion walk-on part. Crusade was only just
beginning, and as such, I'd much rather see a story that stays true to
JMS's plans than a "do-it-for-the-fans" B5:TNG.
--
Cheers,
Rick
Iain Clark
"Iain Reid" <Ia...@greysector.ezesurf.co.uk> wrote in message
news:8kistq$1gp$1...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Oh, and I /loved/ Galen. The way his character sat and quietly mocked
> everything that the others were doing whith a childish glee totally
> enchanted me. I thought YES! JMS has finally mastered writing characters
> who are consistently funny (no more "Kosh-Who"s, Light-bulb changing
> Centauri or Zoot-Zoots ever again). CTA didn't do him justice, but the
> series brought out a very British sense of humour in him.
>
I can't put my finger on it but jms' sometimes unsubtle style of humour was
much funnier on Crusade than I found it on B5.
I like sarcastic humour and Galen does a nice line in it, but I must also
say that some of his dramatic scenes are very fine. He *is* larger than
life, but so are all the alien characters on B5, with whom Galen has much
more in common than he does with the human cast. Like the alien characters,
his delivery is largely the right side of hammy. IMO.
Iain Clark
"Shaz" <hyp...@Dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:8kj6ej$2tv$1...@lure.pipex.net...
>
> "James Bell" <jam...@naxs.com> wrote in message
> news:396D04D3...@naxs.com...
> > This discussion has led me to a question: If it does come to a choice
> between
> > reviving Crusade or having more Babylon 5 (be it movies, mini-series',
or
> another
> > series) which would be preferable? I, for one, am with Tom on this.
Even
> though
> > I enjoyed Crusade, I would much rather see some of the B5 threads
expanded
> and
> > wrapped up (G'kar/Lyta, Lennier, Next Generation, etc.).
> >
>
> I agree. I simply could not get any sympathy for the Crusade characters,
> while I DID have a lot of immediate sympathy (within two episodes) for the
> B5 ones.
Not even when Gideon admitted that Sheridan was his hero? :-) (I rather
liked that idea actually - it adds something to Sheridan's character when we
seem him through other people's eyes.)
> And, as Sue says, there was something else in B5. Not sure what it
> was, but there was something, and it was there right from the start. That
> something I never found in Crusade.
I'm reminded a little of reactions to TNG when it started. Many Trek fans
found the characters anaemic and dull compared to the original cast. There
was much talk of how the series was stale. There were direct comparisons
made on the limited evidence available - "at this point in the original
series we'd seen The Corbomite Manoeuvre and it was obviously great, whereas
all we've had now is Code of Honor...."
But once the series got out from under the shadow of its predecessor, once
the cast relaxed and stopped being so stilted (and once the writing
improved, but just ignore that aspect of my analogy please <g>) it began to
be appreciated as a worthy successor. Different, but better and richer in
some ways, although not always ones which were apparent at the start.
I still remember the Starburst review which happily predicted that Data was
an abysmal rip-off of Spock without any of the depth or charisma and would
be first up against the wall when the inevitable revolution came!
Alison Hopkins
Sue wrote in message <396dfc58...@news1.attglobal.net>...
>On 13 Jul 2000 10:54:32 -0600, Paul Harper <pa...@harper.net> wrote:
>
>>On 13 Jul 2000 10:15:34 -0600, "Alison Hopkins" <fn...@dial.pipex.com>
>
>>>Providing it has three hours of pure Sheridan, eh? :) :)
>>
>>Shaz can write. I'm sure she's already done the shower scene :-)
>
>Shower scene, bedroom scene.......:)
>
Starfury scene, White Star scene.... <snerk>
Ali
LK
>This discussion has led me to a question: If it does come to a choice between
>reviving Crusade or having more Babylon 5 (be it movies, mini-series', or another
>series) which would be preferable? I, for one, am with Tom on this. Even though
>I enjoyed Crusade, I would much rather see some of the B5 threads expanded and
>wrapped up (G'kar/Lyta, Lennier, Next Generation, etc.).
>
>Jim
I'd vote for "Crusade" partially because of the "you can't go home
again and become the "child" you were" theory.
Actors aren't animals you can keep in a corral and bring out your
favorite rides. And they age even with today's technologies.
Like the First Ones and the others leaving to create room for the new,
I think Crusade deserves a chance to create a life for itself.
Sympathetic characters aren't enough and B5 universe was never meant
to be "comfort TV." JMS _needs_ to grow as a writer, needs to learn
to become more than Corwin's--brillant writer-- or Serling's, et al
pencil box carrier. And he _needs_ to tell many stories.
Crusade can be a version of asking the viewers to grow bigger
shoulders ala "A View From the Gallery." There advantages to growing
the a "Cosmo girl" mentallity/image (Cosmopolitian magazine).
I've watched some B5 episodes ten times and they still haven't lost
their power to involve me. I think "In the Begining" is one of the
finest movies I've ever seen.
As a kind of comparison, "Horatio Hornblower" mini-series and
"Longitude" by A&E and Channel 4 (BBC?). "Hornblower" was great and
exciting; "Longitude" I had to pay attention and let the story come to
me and a sense of wonder grow at one's man's capability to rethink his
approach. Both great productions, but different feels, different
goals in "educating" and entertaining.
On top of all that JMS is still "evil and not nice" and I wouldn't
want to discourage what he does so well by asking for more, more, more
of the well known.
LK
Tom Holt
The message <31hrms06p75qmpmfv...@4ax.com>
from Paul Harper <pa...@harper.net> contains these words:
> On 12 Jul 2000 20:31:51 -0600, Tom Holt <lemmi...@zetnet.co.uk>
> wrote:
> >OK. You win. Keep the goddamn banana.
> No no no. Make 'im buy the hardback versions.
I think that'd come under the heading of 'cruel and unusual.'
Shaz
"Alison Hopkins" <fn...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:8kl1oh$54g$1...@lure.pipex.net...
Never did it. I swear!
Are you guys trying to get me into trouble here???
(BTW, thanks for the compliment, Paul!)
Shaz
Shaz
"LK" <founta...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kc5smss8c84p4jj0p...@4ax.com...
> On 12 Jul 2000 17:50:25 -0600, James Bell <jam...@naxs.com> wrote:
>
> >This discussion has led me to a question: If it does come to a choice
between
> >reviving Crusade or having more Babylon 5 (be it movies, mini-series', or
another
> >series) which would be preferable? I, for one, am with Tom on this.
Even though
> >I enjoyed Crusade, I would much rather see some of the B5 threads
expanded and
> >wrapped up (G'kar/Lyta, Lennier, Next Generation, etc.).
> >
> >Jim
>
> I'd vote for "Crusade" partially because of the "you can't go home
> again and become the "child" you were" theory.
Except it wouldn't be a case of rehashing an old plot. There's a lot still
waiting to be told in the B5 universe, right in that 19 years between
Objects at Rest and Sleeping in Light. I'd say Joe gave himself a rather
nice bit of leeway there. It's not the same as making up fillers. There are
certain things we know HAD to happen, and I'd just like to see some of them
(Lyta and G'kar, Telepath war, growth of the Alliance, etc. etc. etc.)
> Actors aren't animals you can keep in a corral and bring out your
> favorite rides. And they age even with today's technologies.
Again, the 19 year gap allows for that. No need to shove them in corsets!
They should age and change, and that's a GOOD thing.
> Like the First Ones and the others leaving to create room for the new,
> I think Crusade deserves a chance to create a life for itself.
> Sympathetic characters aren't enough and B5 universe was never meant
> to be "comfort TV." JMS _needs_ to grow as a writer, needs to learn
> to become more than Corwin's--brillant writer-- or Serling's, et al
> pencil box carrier. And he _needs_ to tell many stories.
I don't see why one cannot grow within a universe one has already drawn (and
in case, Crusade is STILL in that universe). From your analyses he shouldn't
be doing ANYTHING in the B5 universe, including Crusade.
> Crusade can be a version of asking the viewers to grow bigger
> shoulders ala "A View From the Gallery." There advantages to growing
> the a "Cosmo girl" mentallity/image (Cosmopolitian magazine).
:-P NO THANKS!
> I've watched some B5 episodes ten times and they still haven't lost
> their power to involve me. I think "In the Begining" is one of the
> finest movies I've ever seen.
Agreed.
> As a kind of comparison, "Horatio Hornblower" mini-series and
> "Longitude" by A&E and Channel 4 (BBC?). "Hornblower" was great and
> exciting; "Longitude" I had to pay attention and let the story come to
> me and a sense of wonder grow at one's man's capability to rethink his
> approach. Both great productions, but different feels, different
> goals in "educating" and entertaining.
Well, the fact one was based on historical fact and the other on historical
novels might have something to do with that. I knew the story of Harrison's
struggles with the chronometer already, but actually seeing it put into film
blew me away.
> On top of all that JMS is still "evil and not nice" and I wouldn't
> want to discourage what he does so well by asking for more, more, more
> of the well known.
He can be evil and not nice in the B5 universe as well, and with characters
for whom I have some sympathy. I just never found that level of sympathy
with the Crusade characters and, apparently, I'm not alone.
Shaz
Alyson L. Abramowitz
>
> > I'd vote for "Crusade" partially because of the "you can't go home
> > again and become the "child" you were" theory.
>
> Except it wouldn't be a case of rehashing an old plot. There's a lot still
> waiting to be told in the B5 universe, right in that 19 years between
> Objects at Rest and Sleeping in Light. I'd say Joe gave himself a rather
> nice bit of leeway there. It's not the same as making up fillers. There are
> certain things we know HAD to happen, and I'd just like to see some of them
> (Lyta and G'kar, Telepath war, growth of the Alliance, etc. etc. etc.)
Let's note that there are interesting threads after SIL too. What
exactly happens to Susan, for example? Does Garibaldi ever become
anything but a dry drunk now that Bester is out of the picture? We won't
even talk about that plot chasm which the PSI Corps books ended by
opening.
In any case, discussing plot lines is probably not a Good Thing for any
future works (and I, purposely, picked the obvious ones for that
reason). I'm surprised our moderators haven't swatted us yet.
Mind, I found Crusade's characters far more likable on first pass than
B5 Year 1 then Shaz. So we don't quite come from the same basis here.
Best,
Alyson
Andrew Swallow
<lemmi...@zetnet.co.uk> writes:
>But; since the likelihood of seeing any new Crusade episodes
>is roughly on a par with those of me diving into a lake of boiling
>pigshit to save Tony Blair from drowning,
Not even I am that right wing. :-)
Andrew Swalloow
Andrew Swallow
<lemmi...@zetnet.co.uk> writes:
>
>Stranger things have happened... The ratings for the TNT TV movies
>were pretty respectable, as Are has pointed out; and a TV movie
>doesn't represent quite the same terrifying degree of commitment of
>money/resources/time as a series, either for suits or actors.
>
I was in a small branch of W.H.Smiths yesterday (Wednesday). The
Babylon 5 movies were still on sale. This good news means that
people are continuing to buy them - failures would have been returned
over a year ago.
Consequently a new movie can be pitched as a reliable cult show. "It
will not be a best seller but should sell x thousand copies over 3 years.
Y thousand in the first month. Allowing for the standard margins, if the
movie can be made for $z it will make a profit."
Andrew Swallow
Tom Holt
The message <20000713223722...@nso-fl.news.cs.com>
from andrewm...@cs.com (Andrew Swallow) contains these words:
> I was in a small branch of W.H.Smiths yesterday (Wednesday). The
> Babylon 5 movies were still on sale. This good news means that
> people are continuing to buy them - failures would have been returned
> over a year ago.
The B5 videos have always sold extremely well in the UK, AFAIK; even
the poxy little Woolworths' in my home town (think Smallville; only
smaller) still has a couple of Season 5 tapes and 'Call To Arms', and
the big music & video chains usually have the complete set, plus
movies. Come to that, the 'Crusade' tapes have always gone in the Top
Ten rack as soon as they're released (you can draw whatever
inferences you choose from that)
Stuff that doesn't sell is whisked off the shelves in very short
order (apart from The Phantom Menace, of course...), so if there are
B5 videos in the stores, they must be doing business.
That said; I'm not sure what percentage of the total proceeds of a
show the overseas video sales represent, but I'm prepared to bet it's
somewhere between 'negligible' and 'drop in the ocean'; what matters,
surely, is the US domestic market - in which the B5 TV movies did as
well as could be expected, or better.
Iain Rae
well, I do remember a BBC executive at one point admitting that the
merchandising income from Dr. Who was approimately the same as the Drama
Department's budget.
--
Iain Rae
Computing Officer
Dept. Civil & Offshore Engineering
Heriot-Watt University
Moyra J. Bligh
>This discussion has led me to a question: If it does come to a choice between
>reviving Crusade or having more Babylon 5 (be it movies, mini-series', or another
>series) which would be preferable? I, for one, am with Tom on this. Even though
>I enjoyed Crusade, I would much rather see some of the B5 threads expanded and
>wrapped up (G'kar/Lyta, Lennier, Next Generation, etc.).
If they could get Mira back as "Delenn", B5 without question. Without
Mira, I'd have a slight preference for B5, but I'd enjoy Crusade as
well. Would I watch either religiously? Probably not. I have "River of
Souls" on tape, and haven't ever been inspired enough to watch more
than a few scenes from it.
Then again, I'll freely admit that I'd be perfectly happy watching
Mira do selected readings from the New York White Pages for hours on
end.
--
Moyra J. Bligh - mo...@zlatna.com
FAQ maintainer - alt.fan.mira-furlan http://www.zlatna.com/MFfaq.html
moderator mira-f mailing list - http://www.egroups.com/group/mira-f/info.html
===============================================================
Mira Furlan & Goran Gajic - come join The Celebration
http://www.zlatna.com/gold.html
===============================================================
Pål Are Nordal
>
> If they could get Mira back as "Delenn", B5 without question. Without
> Mira, I'd have a slight preference for B5, but I'd enjoy Crusade as
> well.
Of course, there would be the possibility of Delenn visiting the
Excalibur... :-)
LK
wrote:
>"Moyra J. Bligh" wrote:
>>
>> If they could get Mira back as "Delenn", B5 without question. Without
>> Mira, I'd have a slight preference for B5, but I'd enjoy Crusade as
>> well.
>
>Of course, there would be the possibility of Delenn visiting the
>Excalibur... :-)
Her and Galen and Giddeon in an discussion or an arguement.
Chills and thrills and whaps upside the head.
I hope the men have plenty of ego ointment.
Or they just be sensible and do.
Susan I. maybe god, but Delenn...is.
LK
Moyra J. Bligh
[ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ]
[ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
On 16 Jul 2000 21:21:01 -0600, Pål Are Nordal <a_b...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:
>"Moyra J. Bligh" wrote:
>>
>> If they could get Mira back as "Delenn", B5 without question. Without
>> Mira, I'd have a slight preference for B5, but I'd enjoy Crusade as
>> well.
>
>Of course, there would be the possibility of Delenn visiting the
>Excalibur... :-)
Hey, I'd be just as happy if they created a brand new character for
Mira in Crusade.
--
Moyra J. Bligh - mo...@zlatna.com
FAQ maintainer - alt.fan.mira-furlan http://www.zlatna.com/MFfaq.html
moderator mira-f mailing list - http://www.egroups.com/group/mira-f/info.html
Pål Are Nordal
>
> On 16 Jul 2000 21:21:01 -0600, Pål Are Nordal <a_b...@bigfoot.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >Of course, there would be the possibility of Delenn visiting the
> >Excalibur... :-)
>
> Hey, I'd be just as happy if they created a brand new character for
> Mira in Crusade.
Delenn's evil twin... ;-)
Ronin and Annie
for testing out whether he and Lyta did experiment with their threshholds
hehe.
Shaz <hyp...@Dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:8klgl5$hh6$1...@lure.pipex.net...
Moyra J. Bligh
[ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ]
[ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
On 17 Jul 2000 17:06:46 -0600, Pål Are Nordal <a_b...@bigfoot.com>
wrote:
>"Moyra J. Bligh" wrote:
>>
>> On 16 Jul 2000 21:21:01 -0600, Pål Are Nordal <a_b...@bigfoot.com>
>> wrote:
>> >
>> >Of course, there would be the possibility of Delenn visiting the
>> >Excalibur... :-)
>>
>> Hey, I'd be just as happy if they created a brand new character for
>> Mira in Crusade.
>
>Delenn's evil twin... ;-)
I was hoping for more of a stretch than that.
--
Moyra J. Bligh - mo...@zlatna.com
FAQ maintainer - alt.fan.mira-furlan http://www.zlatna.com/MFfaq.html
moderator mira-f mailing list - http://www.egroups.com/group/mira-f/info.html
===============================================================
Mira Furlan & Goran Gajic - come join The Celebration
http://www.zlatna.com/gold.html
===============================================================
Pål Are Nordal
>
> On 17 Jul 2000 17:06:46 -0600, Pål Are Nordal <a_b...@bigfoot.com>
> wrote:
>
> >"Moyra J. Bligh" wrote:
> >>
> >> Hey, I'd be just as happy if they created a brand new character for
> >> Mira in Crusade.
> >
> >Delenn's evil twin... ;-)
>
> I was hoping for more of a stretch than that.
Ahhh. Delenn's aunt then.