jms lawyer query
Jms at B5
stuff point me in the direction of the best lawyer in the field of internet
litigation out there? Just like to ask someone a few questions....
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
B5 Official Fan Club at:
http://www.thestation.com
(all message content (c) 2000 by
synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
to reprint specifically denied to
SFX Magazine)
Paul Harper
>A previous lead didn't pan out...can someone out there who really knows his/her
>stuff point me in the direction of the best lawyer in the field of internet
>litigation out there? Just like to ask someone a few questions....
Swine! Don't leave us hanging like that!!!
What's Bryan / SFX etc. done now? :-)
Paul.
--
A .sig is all well and good, but it's no substitute for a personality
" . . . SFX is a fairly useless publication on just
about every imaginable front. Never have so many jumped-up fanboys done so
little, with so much, for so long." JMS.
Iain Rae
> A previous lead didn't pan out...can someone out there who really knows his/her
> stuff point me in the direction of the best lawyer in the field of internet
> litigation out there? Just like to ask someone a few questions....
>
> jms
> #
from what little I've read it's a case of first choose the country you wish to sue
in, or find out which county you are being sued in.
If you're the plaintif and it's libel then the UK is probably your best bet.
WWS
Except, of course, that the UK doesn't have any jurisdiction over
non UK citizens and no way enforce a judgement over someone with
no assets in the UK. Same problem for any country, and even state
to state. Washington State made a big splash a couple of years ago
with a new anti-spam law, which was going to make Spamming someone
a criminal offense. Here's the kicker - it's only enforceable when
the poster lives in Washington State and the reciever lives in
Washington State. Anywhere else, it's just more vaporware.
Federal Law is noticeably lacking, except that is the only jurisdiction
that can handle interstate cases. Here's a good resource on available
law articles and cases that are applicable to the internet:
http://www.jmls.edu/cyber/index/index.html
Interesting case in the paper today - an international child-porn
ring has just been busted after a 3 year investigation. The
accountant's/money people in Fort Worth have been taken into
custody, and the FBI is hoping to obtain concurrent indictments
of web operators in Indonesia and Russia, from those respective
governments. That's the profile of case you need to be able to
bring to really get any attention at the Federal/International
level. (they had taken in over a million dollars in subscriptions
to child-porn sites, clever of the feds to target the money people)
Generally, in business the law is going to fall under fraud statutes.
E-mail harrassment falls under the same area as telephone harrassment,
but that's really an area that the ISP's are expected to resolve
themselves. Difficult to bring a case.
For anything else, in order to hope to succeed in a case one is
going to have to show documented monetary losses in order to hope
to recieve any relief. For example, there is an extremely
controversial case in the Northwest where a local judge barred a
man from posting his reviews of ski equipment because one of the
equipment manufacturers said they lost money and sales because of
his bad reviews. However, his supporters say this is a gross
suppression of free speech, and this is going to be in the courts
for years (and end up costing both sides tens of thousands of
dollars before all the appeals are over) Furthermore, they say
that no judge has the right to ban a man from telling the truth.
Many observers feel that it will not stand up long. Who knows?
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
Iain Rae
> Iain Rae wrote:
> >
> > Jms at B5 wrote:
> >
> > > A previous lead didn't pan out...can someone out there who really knows his/her
> > > stuff point me in the direction of the best lawyer in the field of internet
> > > litigation out there? Just like to ask someone a few questions....
> > >
> > > jms
> > > #
> >
> > from what little I've read it's a case of first choose the country
> > you wish to sue in, or find out which county you are being sued in.
> >
> > If you're the plaintif and it's libel then the UK is probably
> > your best bet.
>
> Except, of course, that the UK doesn't have any jurisdiction over
> non UK citizens and no way enforce a judgement over someone with
> no assets in the UK. Same problem for any country, and even state
> to state.
If it's published or imported into the UK you can sue the publishers/importers that's
how Mr Trimble is suing Amazon.com/.uk over the "the committee" book. The recent
Demon non-case seems to imply that carrying a usenet feed is deemed to be publishing
as is web hosting, this would apply to mirror sites as well. So if person A in outer
mongolia posts something libelous about you and you want a legal judgement that what
was posted was indeed libellous you then go phoning round the ISP's/websites asking
them to remove it. The implications are that if you have done this and they don't
remove the post/whatever (there's bound to be someone who doesn't, for whatever
reason. If all else fails go for a university it'll take them six months to set up a
committee to discuss whether or not to reply never mind whether or not to acceed) then
they are accepting resonsibility for the content and you can sue .
Ok you're not suing the person who made the statement but you are getting your day in
court. If it's money you are after then any publisher/distributer is going to have
more money that any individual (Bill Gates doesn't count no-one's got the money to sue
him) and it allows you to go round rubbing his nose in the result.
I should of course have added IANAL to the previous post.
Iain Rae
> Iain Rae wrote:
> >
> > Jms at B5 wrote:
> >
> > > A previous lead didn't pan out...can someone out there who really knows his/her
> > > stuff point me in the direction of the best lawyer in the field of internet
> > > litigation out there? Just like to ask someone a few questions....
> > >
> > > jms
> > > #
> >
> > from what little I've read it's a case of first choose the country
> > you wish to sue in, or find out which county you are being sued in.
> >
> > If you're the plaintif and it's libel then the UK is probably
> > your best bet.
>
> Except, of course, that the UK doesn't have any jurisdiction over
> non UK citizens and no way enforce a judgement over someone with
> no assets in the UK.
hmmmmm. I also found this. report on the Godfrey case,
http://www.intellectualcapital.com/issues/issue213/item3471.asp
specifically
Godfrey seems has a history of suing people. The Demon action
is one of an
estimated 10 such actions he has brought against various Net
posters. He settled
out of court in 1996 with Geneva-based physicist Philip
Hallam-Baker and, according
to the BBC, has pursued suits against organizations and
individuals in Australia,
New Zealand, Canada and the United States.
Only a few weeks ago, he was awarded Ł15,000 (about $24,000)
plus costs against
Canadian Michael Dolenga over a series of postings to
soc.culture.canada. Dolenga,
a Cornell University student, believed he was protected by the
First Amendment and
did not defend the action, but under the Foreign Judgements
Reciprocal Enforcement
Act of 1933, Godfrey can collect in Canada.
You've had Flags of convenience, now you can have courts of convenience
Alison Hopkins
Paul Harper wrote in message ...
>On 14 Apr 2000 06:39:26 -0600, jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
>
>>A previous lead didn't pan out...can someone out there who really knows
his/her
>>stuff point me in the direction of the best lawyer in the field of
internet
>>litigation out there? Just like to ask someone a few questions....
>
>
>What's Bryan / SFX etc. done now? :-)
>
I do wish you'd stop reading my mind, dear. <g>
Ali
Paul Harper
wrote:
>I do wish you'd stop reading my mind, dear. <g>
'tis a task of few moments, sweetness :-)
WWS
Iain Rae wrote:
>
> WWS wrote:
>
> > Iain Rae wrote:
> > >
> > > Jms at B5 wrote:
> > >
> > > > A previous lead didn't pan out...can someone out there who really knows his/her
> > > > stuff point me in the direction of the best lawyer in the field of internet
> > > > litigation out there? Just like to ask someone a few questions....
> > > >
> > > > jms
> > > > #
> > >
> > > from what little I've read it's a case of first choose the country
> > > you wish to sue in, or find out which county you are being sued in.
> > >
> > > If you're the plaintif and it's libel then the UK is probably
> > > your best bet.
> >
> > Except, of course, that the UK doesn't have any jurisdiction over
> > non UK citizens and no way enforce a judgement over someone with
> > no assets in the UK.
>
> hmmmmm. I also found this. report on the Godfrey case,
>
> http://www.intellectualcapital.com/issues/issue213/item3471.asp
>
> specifically
>
> Godfrey seems has a history of suing people. The Demon action
> is one of an estimated 10 such actions he has brought against
> various Net posters. He settled out of court in 1996 with
> Geneva-based physicist Philip Hallam-Baker and, according to the
> BBC, has pursued suits against organizations and individuals in
> Australia, New Zealand, Canada and the United States.
>
> Only a few weeks ago, he was awarded £15,000 (about $24,000)
> plus costs against Canadian Michael Dolenga over a series of
> postings to soc.culture.canada. Dolenga, a Cornell University
> student, believed he was protected by the First Amendment and
> did not defend the action, but under the Foreign Judgements
> Reciprocal Enforcement Act of 1933, Godfrey can collect in Canada.
>
> You've had Flags of convenience, now you can have courts of convenience
Fascinating case! Notice that apparently he still cannot collect
in the US, so as long as Dolenga moves here permanently and
naturalizes he'll be safe. (Also collection rights aren't
all they're cracked up to be - I've got a couple thousand out
in bad debts and broken agreements right now, and I can't get
any money out of 'em - and I know where the people live!)
Dolenga made a big mistake - thinking that non US citizens have
the same constitutional protections that US citizens have when
they're living here, especially when another country's legal
system gets involved. (That's why Elian's going back to Cuba)
Apparently that agreement is some old British Commonwealth
thing.
The most interesting Libel case recently in the UK didn't have
to do with the internet, but rather with the author David
Irving, who had claimed that Deborah Lipstadt had harmed him
by claiming he was a holocaust denier. From the news article:
"Mr. Irving argued that Ms. Lipstadt's book made it difficult to find
publishers for his writings and that his reputation had been damaged.
Justice Charles Gray of the high court handed a resounding victory to Ms.
Lipstadt. The justice said that Mr. Irving had deliberately distorted
historical evidence to cast Hitler in a favorable light.
"It appears to me to be incontrovertible that Irving qualifies as a Holocaust
denier," Justice Gray said, underscoring what the historian's critics have
said for years. "Not only has he denied the existence of gas chambers at
Auschwitz and asserted that no Jew was gassed there, he has done so on
frequent occasions and sometimes in the most offensive terms."
In losing the case, Mr. Irving becomes liable for the defense's costs,
in the millions of dollars. He indicated that he might appeal.
Mr. Irving enjoyed an advantage in suing Ms. Lipstadt in a British court
rather than an American one. In British libel law, the burden of proof lies
on the defendants, in this case Ms. Lipstadt and Penguin Books, while in a
U.S. court the responsibility rests with the plaintiff. "
entire article at: http://dallasnews.com/world/63191_LIBEL12.html
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
Loser pays all, boy do I love that system. Wish we had it.
Iain Rae
<snip>
>
> The most interesting Libel case recently in the UK didn't have
> to do with the internet, but rather with the author David
> Irving, who had claimed that Deborah Lipstadt had harmed him
> by claiming he was a holocaust denier. From the news article:
>
yup, she was quoted (lastnight actually) as saying that based on her experiences of being
dragged through the British courts she would not have written what she did about Mr
Irvine.....it'd have been a whole lot worse.
Alison Hopkins
Iain Rae wrote in message <38F771F7...@civ.hw.ac.uk>...
I'm very glad she did, and glad that he brought the case; because he *lost*
and is now an utterly discredited and spent force. Always was, imo, but it
brought the little ... man... out in to the open.
Ali
Alison Hopkins
Paul Harper wrote in message ...
>wrote:
>
>>I do wish you'd stop reading my mind, dear. <g>
>
>'tis a task of few moments, sweetness :-)
>
<Thrrrrppprrrrppppp>
I was blowing a raspberry, if you'll pardon the expression. <g>
Ali
Paul Harper
wrote:
>I was blowing a raspberry, if you'll pardon the expression. <g>
We all gotta get our kicks somewhere... :-)
Alison Hopkins
Paul Harper wrote in message ...
>wrote:
>
>>I was blowing a raspberry, if you'll pardon the expression. <g>
>
>We all gotta get our kicks somewhere... :-)
>
Hey, at my age, you take what you can get! :)
Ali
PS: A bit damp for building, hm? :)
Ali
Paul Harper
wrote:
>PS: A bit damp for building, hm? :)
Tell me about it! Hoping for a few clear days next week. Failing that,
Christian & I will have to put a few music vids together...
... or just hit the pub, one or the other. :-)
Phoebe
Except that it generated a lot of publicity for the nasty little anti-Semite,
and it's been strongly suggested that he'll now retreat into the internet (he
has his own web site) and continue spreading his lies there. He's got lots of
fans in the neo nazi and race hate "community" :-(
Alison Hopkins
Paul Harper wrote in message <919hfs4hijaeln1j5...@4ax.com>...
>On 15 Apr 2000 03:00:36 -0600, "Alison Hopkins" <fn...@dial.pipex.com>
>wrote:
>
>>PS: A bit damp for building, hm? :)
>
>Tell me about it! Hoping for a few clear days next week. Failing that,
>Christian & I will have to put a few music vids together...
>
>... or just hit the pub, one or the other. :-)
>
Oh, what a bummer. You must be devastated. <g>
Ali
Von Bruno
direction of the best lawyer in the field of internet litigation out there?
While I am not a legal expert I would suggest perhaps contacting Stanford
University (at least they would make for an excellent starting point).
~Von Bruno~
Iain Rae
Hmmm I don't know that that's necessarily a bad thing, people like Irving only
thrive on publicity when they control it I think a lot of academics who regarded
him as a serious historian with certain eccentricities are re-evaluating their
views. Ultimately the people who follow the likes of Mr Irving are probably
going to do so anyway, I think the best thing you can do with people like this
is allow everyone to see just how bloody stupid they are. If people are daft
enough to follow them then there's not much more you can do.
I did like the bit in Private Eye which claimed that he had referred to the
Judge as "Mein Furher" at one point :).
Alison Hopkins
Phoebe wrote in message <38F864A0...@prodigy.net>...
>Except that it generated a lot of publicity for the nasty little
anti-Semite,
>and it's been strongly suggested that he'll now retreat into the internet
(he
>has his own web site) and continue spreading his lies there. He's got lots
of
>fans in the neo nazi and race hate "community" :-(
>
Hm, there's a surprise. Yeah, it's the only problem with going for the
little toad, he becomes more known. In this case, I think it had to be done;
and at least it's cost him a LOT of money. <satisfied grin>
Ali
Lisa Deutsch Harrigan
I have a friend who is a lawyer (what a concept but then again he is fannish!) who
might be able to help you. He specializes in Intelectual Property. Name is George
Stewart Cole Esq. E-mail is GSCdL...@aol.com
First half hour is free so he can figure if he can help you. And if he can't, he
knows a lot of other lawyers. He's been really helpful in the fan community in the
past.
Good Luck!
Lisa Harrigan, aka Auntie M <*>
Jms at B5 wrote:
> A previous lead didn't pan out...can someone out there who really knows his/her
carl Dershem
> Except that it generated a lot of publicity for the nasty little anti-Semite,
> and it's been strongly suggested that he'll now retreat into the internet (he
> has his own web site) and continue spreading his lies there. He's got lots of
> fans in the neo nazi and race hate "community" :-(
Who will think the same things and have the same blindered, self-obsessed ideas
he does. A clear case of preaching to the choir.
The trick is to be very clear to those who might be vulnerable to such mind rot,
and help them to recognize it for the crap it is.
Christian Smith
wrote
>
>Paul Harper wrote in message <919hfs4hijaeln1j5...@4ax.com>...
>>On 15 Apr 2000 03:00:36 -0600, "Alison Hopkins" <fn...@dial.pipex.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>PS: A bit damp for building, hm? :)
>>
>>Tell me about it! Hoping for a few clear days next week. Failing that,
>>Christian & I will have to put a few music vids together...
>>
>>... or just hit the pub, one or the other. :-)
>>
Or both :-))
>
>Oh, what a bummer. You must be devastated. <g>
>
You can guess what I've been praying for this weekend <g>
Christian
"Every new beginning is some other beginnings end..."
ICQ 45494039
(E_Mail: Remove "NOSPAM" from e-mail address when replying)
Alison Hopkins
Christian Smith wrote in message <38fd1210....@news.demon.co.uk>...
>On 15 Apr 2000 12:51:24 -0600,"Alison Hopkins" <fn...@dial.pipex.com>
>wrote
>
>>
>>Paul Harper wrote in message
<919hfs4hijaeln1j5...@4ax.com>...
>>>On 15 Apr 2000 03:00:36 -0600, "Alison Hopkins" <fn...@dial.pipex.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>PS: A bit damp for building, hm? :)
>>>
>>>Tell me about it! Hoping for a few clear days next week. Failing that,
>>>Christian & I will have to put a few music vids together...
>>>
>>>... or just hit the pub, one or the other. :-)
>>>
>Or both :-))
>>
>>Oh, what a bummer. You must be devastated. <g>
>>
>You can guess what I've been praying for this weekend <g>
>
Vision of Christian doing rain dance. <g>
Ali
Paul Harper
wrote:
>Vision of Christian doing rain dance. <g>
With his Suffolk accent? Not a pretty scene <g>
"Oh look - there's a sloight chance of rain now..."
Andrew M Swallow
>
>With his Suffolk accent? Not a pretty scene <g>
>
>"Oh look - there's a sloight chance of rain now..."
>
>Paul.
They play cricket in Suffolk, don't they? :-)
Richard Tibbetts
>On 16 Apr 2000 02:55:06 -0600, "Alison Hopkins" <fn...@dial.pipex.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Vision of Christian doing rain dance. <g>
>
>With his Suffolk accent? Not a pretty scene <g>
>
>"Oh look - there's a sloight chance of rain now..."
Does Christian notice the rain? I'd have thought it would have to be
very heavy for any to hit him, considering his vertical cross section.
--
Richard Tibbetts
http://www.primepeace.ltd.uk/
Feeling generous? Then see http://www.ppeace.demon.co.uk/richardt.htm#swimathon
Paul Harper
wrote:
>
>Paul Harper wrote in message <919hfs4hijaeln1j5...@4ax.com>...
>>On 15 Apr 2000 03:00:36 -0600, "Alison Hopkins" <fn...@dial.pipex.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>PS: A bit damp for building, hm? :)
>>
>>Tell me about it! Hoping for a few clear days next week. Failing that,
>>Christian & I will have to put a few music vids together...
>>
>>... or just hit the pub, one or the other. :-)
>>
>
>
>Oh, what a bummer. You must be devastated. <g>
Not devastated, but over the course of 3 days, rained on, pithed on,
and sunshined on!!
If you're interested, the results of the project so far can be found
on http://www.sifnos94.demon.co.uk/playhouse.htm
Those kids had better like the damn thing!!!
Paul (who *is* going down the pub with Christian now - not eaten all
day, and have worked up a fair old thirst too...)
Alison Hopkins
Paul Harper wrote in message <25rrfs8d9efvu9abv...@4ax.com>...
>If you're interested, the results of the project so far can be found
>on http://www.sifnos94.demon.co.uk/playhouse.htm
>
Blimey. GroundForce eat your heart out!
Ali
Paul Harper
wrote:
>Blimey. GroundForce eat your heart out!
Titchmarch? <phtuie!>
(Christian, reading this over my shoulder says "Doesn't that make you
Charlie Dimmock?" - I'll slap him around later when my back recovers
from the building work!!)
Paul.
Alison Hopkins
Paul Harper wrote in message ...
>On 19 Apr 2000 15:33:33 -0600, "Alison Hopkins" <fn...@dial.pipex.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Blimey. GroundForce eat your heart out!
>
>Titchmarch? <phtuie!>
>
>(Christian, reading this over my shoulder says "Doesn't that make you
>Charlie Dimmock?" - I'll slap him around later when my back recovers
>from the building work!!)
>
Either that, or Handy Andy. <g> Mind you, you're the one who takes his shirt
off at cons.... <thoughtfully>
Ali
Paul Harper
wrote:
>Either that, or Handy Andy. <g> Mind you, you're the one who takes his shirt
>off at cons.... <thoughtfully>
Me? A tart? Shirley not... <g>
Incidentally, the results of today's efforts are at the same web
address as before: http://www.signos94.demon.co.uk/playhouse.htm
Damn the rain! Nice "moody" shot of Alexander Palance though!
Kathryn Shapero
Lisa Deutsch Harrigan <li...@harrigan.org> wrote in message
news:38F8EE19...@harrigan.org...
> Hi Joe -
>
> I have a friend who is a lawyer (what a concept but then again he is
fannish!) who
> might be able to help you. He specializes in Intelectual Property. Name is
George
> Stewart Cole Esq. E-mail is GSCdL...@aol.com
>
> First half hour is free so he can figure if he can help you. And if he
can't, he
> knows a lot of other lawyers. He's been really helpful in the fan
community in the
> past.
>
pulled more than one fan out of the ditch that I know of.