Joe's story in latest B5 magazine. SPOILERS!
Shaz
TO BE SPOILED, DON'T READ THIS!!!!
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I'm warning you!
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All right, your choice.
That should be enough.
I liked it. Nice to see more about the Vorlons (neat twist about the ship.
Would save on repair bills if only you can get all the bits together!) and
just nice to see Ivanova again. Of course, I'd've liked it to be longer, but
then I'm just plain greedy when it comes to B5 stories! I liked Sheridan's
discomfort, and the way the ship reacted to his presence. I was a tad
surprised Ulkesh's ship was so friendly towards him, given he was primarily
responsible for toasting its owner, but I guess the ways of Vorlon ships,
like god, are beyond my understanding. It would have made more sense if the
ship had tried to fry him, or he'd somehow had to explain to it why he
should be allowed to live despite being its owner's murderer, but I suppose
there just isn't enough time in a short story to put in those details. Damn!
We need books to give people room to manoeuvre so they can plug details like
this. Maybe it sensed old Kosh's influence on Sheridan and preferred Naranek
to Ulkesh itself (hmm, I bet Ulkesh was annoyed if his ship ever expressed
its opinions!).
Just two things really bugged me.
1) The total cop out regarding what it looks like inside Kosh's ship. While
I appreciate it would be hard to describe except, perhaps, in metaphorical
terms, I doubt Ivanova would've given up so easily, and I doubt John would
have been so incapable of stringing a few words together. It just struck me
as Joe not having a clue WHAT to say, so choosing to avoid the issue
altogether. Hence 'there are no words' comment. If Sheridan can interact
with the ship well enough to pilot it out of B5 and into the Titan, he
comprehends something of what he is experiencing. That suggests at least
SOME of it (like how the heck he DOES that!) WOULD be within words,
otherwise he doesn't comprehend it. After all, Lorien said you can't have a
thought without language, and the thought that Sheridan has to know enough
to pilot the ship should therefore be expressible.
2) One thing that doesn't jive with what Joe said in Sleeping in Light
comments. He said Ivanova had never mentioned the name of Marcus since he
died, hence the reaction of the others at the toast (and it says that in the
script as well, which I saw when a legal copy was auctioned for charity last
year at Telefantastique. There it says something along the lines that
Ivanova hadn't said the name in 20 years and the reactions of the others
should 'sell' this detail, which they certainly did. Of course, Marcus died
19 years ago, not twenty, so I could be a real swine and point out THAT
detail was wrong as well, but what the heck!) , yet she DOES say his name to
John in this story, which is, what, 19 years later? Maybe 18 as Sheridan
died at the end of season 3, Marcus at the end of season 4 and this is set
during season 5. Anyway, she almost says it once (at which I thought 'good,
this is consistent'), and then DOES say it when she's alone with John (at
which I thought 'oh blast! That doesn't fit!').
It's a nit-pick, I know, but I rather liked the idea Ivanova had such a
problem with Marcus that she couldn't even say his name. Now that detail has
been lost, and that's a shame. Ah well.
I'm still looking forward to the next one.
Shaz
--
**********************************************************
If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.
Help feed the world. Go to:
***********************************************************
Jms at B5
>I appreciate it would be hard to describe except, perhaps, in metaphorical
>terms, I doubt Ivanova would've given up so easily, and I doubt John would
>have been so incapable of stringing a few words together.
There's an old saying: to suggest is to create, to define is to kill. No
matter how amazingly I had described Kosh's ship -- and I do happen to know
what's inside and how it looks -- it would have eliminated the mystery of it.
The way it's written, you can see anything you want, as big as you want, and it
stays mysterious. It's the "behind the door" scenario: you hear something
knocking on the other side of hte door, and for as long as you don't open the
door, it could be ANYthing. The moment you open the door, and see that it's a
six foot cockroach, you can think, "Well, it could be worse, it could've been a
ten foot cockroach."
No matter what I would've described, somebody would have said, "Well, it wasn't
as special as *I* imagined it would be." So best to keep the mystery intact.
>2) One thing that doesn't jive with what Joe said in Sleeping in Light
>comments. He said Ivanova had never mentioned the name of Marcus since he
>died, hence the reaction of the others at the toast (and it says that in the
>script as well, which I saw when a legal copy was auctioned for charity
But it wasn't said in the episode, now was it? Wasn't said in dialogue. That
was written to give the actor in question a sense of weight for the line.
It's really only fair to hold the show to what's actually *said*.
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
B5 Official Fan Club at:
http://www.thestation.com
(all message content (c) 2000 by
synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
to reprint specifically denied to
SFX Magazine)
Shaz
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you realise I damn near sent this and made a mad dash to my keyboard to stop
it before I ruined the story for everyone???
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Phew! All right, now then.....
"Jms at B5" <jms...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000403192250...@ng-bk1.aol.com...
> There's an old saying: to suggest is to create, to define is to kill. No
> matter how amazingly I had described Kosh's ship -- and I do happen to
> know what's inside and how it looks -- it would have eliminated the
> mystery of it.
> The way it's written, you can see anything you want, as big as you want,
> and it stays mysterious. It's the "behind the door" scenario: you hear
> something knocking on the other side of hte door, and for as long as
> you don't open the door, it could be ANYthing. The moment you open
> the door, and see that it's a
> six foot cockroach, you can think, "Well, it could be worse, it could've
> been a ten foot cockroach."
>
> No matter what I would've described, somebody would have said, "Well, it
> wasn't as special as *I* imagined it would be." So best to keep the
> mystery intact.
<grunt><mutter, mutter> With all due respect, SOD what other people say!
It's YOUR story! If you say the interior looks like Amanda King's kitchen
complete with floral curtains, THAT'S what it looks like! If people don't
like it, tough! That's their problem. Yes, of course I can imagine things,
in fact, you wouldn't believe what I can imagine, and a lot of it would be
NC17 rated for the general look of the place. But this is *your* creation.
I'd far rather listen to your take on it, even if I don't agree with it,
than sit
there, my head whirling with images, and never know if I'd even got close.
You realise I now have this image of the stove, the fridge complete with
magnets and the ficus plant stuck in my head?
Nuts!
> >2) One thing that doesn't jive with what Joe said in Sleeping in Light
> >comments. He said Ivanova had never mentioned the name of Marcus since he
> >died, hence the reaction of the others at the toast (and it says that in
> > the script as well, which I saw when a legal copy was auctioned for
charity
> But it wasn't said in the episode, now was it? Wasn't said in dialogue.
> That was written to give the actor in question a sense of weight for the
> line.
>
> It's really only fair to hold the show to what's actually *said*.
<more muttering> <mumble, mumble> they performed it as instructed <mumble,
mumble> they made us, the audience, understand the name was an issue with
her <mumble, mumble> maybe not twenty years but... <mumble, mumble>... ah,
what the heck? I'll just excise that bit from my brain.
There, that's better.
Shaz <who liked the story ANYWAY!>
Iain Clark
"Shaz" <hyp...@Dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:8c8v45$fg$2...@lure.pipex.net...
> SPOILER SPACE FOR NEW B5 STORY. IF YOU HAVEN'T READ IT YET, AND DON'T WANT
> TO BE SPOILED, DON'T READ THIS!!!!
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> All right, your choice.
>
> That should be enough.
>
> I liked it. Nice to see more about the Vorlons (neat twist about the ship.
> Would save on repair bills if only you can get all the bits together!) and
> just nice to see Ivanova again. Of course, I'd've liked it to be longer,
but
> then I'm just plain greedy when it comes to B5 stories! I liked Sheridan's
> discomfort, and the way the ship reacted to his presence. I was a tad
> surprised Ulkesh's ship was so friendly towards him, given he was
primarily
> responsible for toasting its owner, but I guess the ways of Vorlon ships,
> like god, are beyond my understanding. It would have made more sense if
the
> ship had tried to fry him, or he'd somehow had to explain to it why he
> should be allowed to live despite being its owner's murderer, but I
suppose
> there just isn't enough time in a short story to put in those details.
Damn!
<snip>
I really enjoyed it too. It was short (I suppose I should have expected
this from a short story!) but it felt like an episode - or the A-story of
one. The idea that Earth Force's experiments with Shadow Technology didn't
end with the birth of the Alliance is pleasantly disturbing and convincing.
I hadn't clearly thought about the perceptions of Ulkesh's vessel towards
Sheridan. Hostility would have been a nice touch, although I think you're
right - the thought processes of the ship are unknowable and may not extend
to such explicit reasoning.
> Just two things really bugged me.
>
> 1) The total cop out regarding what it looks like inside Kosh's ship.
While
> I appreciate it would be hard to describe except, perhaps, in metaphorical
> terms, I doubt Ivanova would've given up so easily, and I doubt John would
> have been so incapable of stringing a few words together. It just struck
me
> as Joe not having a clue WHAT to say, so choosing to avoid the issue
> altogether. Hence 'there are no words' comment.
<snip>
I didn't have problem with this. I have the impression that there is no
physical space inside the ship - that the passenger is immersed within it,
so there is nothing literal to express, only the mental relationship with
the vessel itself. The consistency of the ship singing to the occupant was
nice, and John's air of distraction, distance, even awe, conveyed the
experience rather effectively.
I agree that he probably *could* have come up with the words, but I don't
think they'd have left us any the wiser :-)
> 2) One thing that doesn't jive with what Joe said in Sleeping in Light
> comments. He said Ivanova had never mentioned the name of Marcus since he
> died, hence the reaction of the others at the toast (and it says that in
the
> script as well, which I saw when a legal copy was auctioned for charity
last
> year at Telefantastique. There it says something along the lines that
> Ivanova hadn't said the name in 20 years and the reactions of the others
> should 'sell' this detail, which they certainly did. Of course, Marcus
died
> 19 years ago, not twenty, so I could be a real swine and point out THAT
> detail was wrong as well, but what the heck!) , yet she DOES say his name
to
> John in this story, which is, what, 19 years later? Maybe 18 as Sheridan
> died at the end of season 3, Marcus at the end of season 4 and this is set
> during season 5. Anyway, she almost says it once (at which I thought
'good,
> this is consistent'), and then DOES say it when she's alone with John (at
> which I thought 'oh blast! That doesn't fit!').
>
> It's a nit-pick, I know, but I rather liked the idea Ivanova had such a
> problem with Marcus that she couldn't even say his name. Now that detail
has
> been lost, and that's a shame. Ah well.
I suppose it need not be literally true to be the perceived truth by her
friends? It's clear in the story that Marcus' death has affected her
deeply, and whilst she might have been able to squeeze his name out once, to
a close friend, that doesn't mean that she spoke of him often, or easily, or
indeed ever again in the following 20 (ish) years.
I felt this story was a coda to Ivanova's appearances in the series,
following so closely on the heels of Rising Stars in the timeline as it
does. The gap between this and SiL is still very long, and her pain lasted
all of those years.
Iain
--
"Signs, portents, dreams...next thing
we'll be reading tea leaves and chicken entrails."
Jms at B5
>It's YOUR story! If you say the interior looks like Amanda King's kitchen
>complete with floral curtains, THAT'S what it looks like!
Damn! How'd you guess?
Paul Harper
>><grunt><mutter, mutter> With all due respect, SOD what other people say!
>>It's YOUR story! If you say the interior looks like Amanda King's kitchen
>>complete with floral curtains, THAT'S what it looks like!
>
>Damn! How'd you guess?
Spoiler space, please!
Paul
p.s. <g> btw
--
A .sig is all well and good, but it's no substitute for a personality
" . . . SFX is a fairly useless publication on just
about every imaginable front. Never have so many jumped-up fanboys done so
little, with so much, for so long." JMS.
Shaz
"John Dutka" <jdu...@pcnet1.pcnet.com> wrote in message
news:6lfG4.3$Tr4....@news.pcnet.com...
> Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
> : Damn! How'd you guess?
>
> BTW, in which issue of B5 Magazine is/was your story - the April 2000
issue
> with Mira Furlan on the cover in the post-Chrysalis prosthetics?
Nope, the one with Marcus on the cover. The stuff on women in B5 was in the
one with Delenn in the cover.
Shaz
Shaz
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"Paul Harper" <pa...@harper.net> wrote in message
news:o84jes0sbo82jkgo0...@4ax.com...
> On 3 Apr 2000 22:45:33 -0600, jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
>
> >><grunt><mutter, mutter> With all due respect, SOD what other people say!
> >>It's YOUR story! If you say the interior looks like Amanda King's
kitchen
> >>complete with floral curtains, THAT'S what it looks like!
> >
Given Amanda's predilection for asking questions, this puts a whole
new slant on 'Comes the Inquisitor', doesn't it?
> Spoiler space, please!
*I* put it in! Joe didn't!!!! I'm innocent!
<g>
<And stop sniggering, Paul. I AM innocent. It's you guys from umstb5 who've
corrupted me!)
> Paul
>
> p.s. <g> btw
<bows> Thank you.
Shaz <with even MORE weird and bizarre images, most of which were better
left undescribed...
...a bit like the inside of the ship>
Jay Denebeim
Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
>No matter how amazingly I had described Kosh's ship -- and I do
>happen to know what's inside and how it looks -- it would have
>eliminated the mystery of it.
Well, gosh Joe, what's so amazing about a complete velvet elvis
collection?
Jay
--
* Jay Denebeim Moderator rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated *
* newsgroup submission address: b5...@deepthot.aurora.co.us *
* moderator contact address: b5mod-...@deepthot.aurora.co.us *
* personal contact address: dene...@deepthot.aurora.co.us *
Shaz
"Jay Denebeim" <dene...@deepthot.org> wrote in message
news:8cc1k3$np8$1...@dent.deepthot.org...
> In article <20000403192250...@ng-bk1.aol.com>,
> Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >No matter how amazingly I had described Kosh's ship -- and I do
> >happen to know what's inside and how it looks -- it would have
> >eliminated the mystery of it.
>
> Well, gosh Joe, what's so amazing about a complete velvet elvis
> collection?
>
> Jay
I guess we all see what we want to see when it comes to all things Vorlon,
right?
<g>
Shaz <thinking this suggests what Sheridan saw, being private to him, is
probably wisely left that way!>
Andrew M Swallow
>here (Connecticut, USA) until next month.
That is why we are using Spoiler warnings.
A question from me to the viewers. Does this story change what you think went
on in Seasons 4 and 5?
Andrew Swallow
Shaz
"Andrew M Swallow" <andrewm...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20000404161503...@ng-fm1.news.cs.com...
Apart from my little nit-pick?
No, not really. Like Thirdspace it's pretty self contained, although the
potential for a follow-up is enormous!
Shaz
Christian Smith
>A BIT OF SPOILER SPACE, JUST IN CASE!
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>"Paul Harper" <pa...@harper.net> wrote in message
>news:o84jes0sbo82jkgo0...@4ax.com...
>> On 3 Apr 2000 22:45:33 -0600, jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
>>
>> >><grunt><mutter, mutter> With all due respect, SOD what other people say!
>> >>It's YOUR story! If you say the interior looks like Amanda King's
>kitchen
>> >>complete with floral curtains, THAT'S what it looks like!
>> >
>> >Damn! How'd you guess?
>
>Given Amanda's predilection for asking questions, this puts a whole
>new slant on 'Comes the Inquisitor', doesn't it?
>
>> Spoiler space, please!
>
>*I* put it in! Joe didn't!!!! I'm innocent!
Don't go there Shaz. We've seen you remember? <g>
>
><g>
>
><And stop sniggering, Paul. I AM innocent. It's you guys from umstb5 who've
>corrupted me!)
>
Yeah and *I* was sweet and innocent till I met you lot (read Paul!!
<G>)
Christian
"Every new beginning is some other beginnings end..."
ICQ 45494039
(E_Mail: Remove "NOSPAM" from e-mail address when replying)
Aubrey W. Adkins
>
> >1) The total cop out regarding what it looks like inside Kosh's ship. While
> >I appreciate it would be hard to describe except, perhaps, in metaphorical
> >terms, I doubt Ivanova would've given up so easily, and I doubt John would
> >have been so incapable of stringing a few words together.
>
> matter how amazingly I had described Kosh's ship -- and I do happen to know
> what's inside and how it looks -- it would have eliminated the mystery of it.
> stays mysterious. It's the "behind the door" scenario: you hear something
> knocking on the other side of hte door, and for as long as you don't open the
> door, it could be ANYthing. The moment you open the door, and see that it's a
> six foot cockroach, you can think, "Well, it could be worse, it could've been a
> ten foot cockroach."
>
> No matter what I would've described, somebody would have said, "Well, it wasn't
> as special as *I* imagined it would be." So best to keep the mystery intact.
Joe,
Oddly enough, another fellow involved in the business had the idea
that less could be much more. His name was Alfred Hitchcock if memory
serves me well. It worked very well for him.
Aubrey
<Cut for length>
Jo L
I really really enjoyed the story too!
Thanks!
Joanne (who no longer buys SFX .. just thought I'd mention it!)
Iain Clark
"Andrew M Swallow" <andrewm...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20000404161503...@ng-fm1.news.cs.com...
> >Ahhh...that issue probably won't arrive at the local bookstores around
> >here (Connecticut, USA) until next month.
>
> That is why we are using Spoiler warnings.
>
> A question from me to the viewers. Does this story change what you think
went
> on in Seasons 4 and 5?
Spoiler warning for the Hidden Agendas short story
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Not sure what you mean. It definitely ties the two seasons together more
strongly by picking up threads and themes largely put aside after Season 4,
and juxtaposing them with aspects of Season 5. In that respect I thought it
very effectively smoothed out some of the shift in tone and pace between the
two seasons (caused by the wrapping up at the end of S4, and Ivanova's
departure.)
It answers some questions I'd never realised needed answering, such as
Ulkesh's ship, and I'd like to have seen more of that (maybe a
Sheridan/Garibaldi heart-to-heart if it had fitted the tale). And it ties
nicely into the growing arc of S5 - Sheridan being forced to compromise
ideals in the face of political reality, Lyta's ruminations on Byron, her
expedient use by Sheridan and Ivanova, and the unfortunate lack of a thank
you...
For me it also brought Ivanova well and truly back into the fold. Her
character had been overshadowed (no pun intended) by the behind-the-scenes
goings on, and it was good to welcome her back.
It also made me take a big step back from some of my naive assumptions about
Earth post-President Clark! In some ways Earth's prickly relationship with
the Alliance shows the kind of thinking that will lead to the Great Burn...
Andrew M Swallow
>From: "Iain Clark" iain.c...@virgin.net
>Date: 05/04/00 00:21 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <astG4.1242$jO4....@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com>
I was talking about Sheridan being a teep.
It is interesting that the Psi Cops did not even try to arrest him in 'Strange
Relations'. He must have camouflaged himself. Would this require a P13
rating?
Sheridan's ability to resist Lyta in 'The Wheal of Fire' has a full
explanation..
Also Sheridan was a little too forgiving of Psi Corps in 'Rising Star', if he
had been a mundane.
Andrew Swallow
bev1...@ecn.ab.ca
: There's an old saying: to suggest is to create, to define is to kill. No
: matter how amazingly I had described Kosh's ship -- and I do happen to know
: what's inside and how it looks -- it would have eliminated the mystery of it.
: The way it's written, you can see anything you want, as big as you want, and it
: stays mysterious. It's the "behind the door" scenario: you hear something
: knocking on the other side of hte door, and for as long as you don't open the
: door, it could be ANYthing. The moment you open the door, and see that it's a
: six foot cockroach, you can think, "Well, it could be worse, it could've been a
: ten foot cockroach."
Son of a b., you just described my average day.
* * *
I hear tell that Delenn is not even mentioned in the story. (sniff) 8~-(
First no wedding, then no Lennier, now this. Poor Delenn just can't catch
a break.
Don't you dare tell me she was cut for time...
Bev
(Mira/Delenn/Minbari fan extraordinaire)
Mark Maher
<SNIPPED>
>I was talking about Sheridan being a teep.
>
>It is interesting that the Psi Cops did not even try to arrest
him in 'Strange
>Relations'. He must have camouflaged himself. Would this
require a P13
>rating?
>
>Sheridan's ability to resist Lyta in 'The Wheal of Fire' has a
full
>explanation..
>
>Also Sheridan was a little too forgiving of Psi Corps in
'Rising Star', if he
>had been a mundane.
>
I don't think so. He didn't start out a telepath, that much
seems sure. He had been inhabited by a Vorlon and was later
revived by Lorien. While it has never been explicitly stated, he
seemed to demonstrate some remarkable abilities:
1. The ability to resist telepathic probing, even from a Vorlon.
This came out in "Falling Toward Apotheosis" when Sheridan comes
up with and executes a plan that resulted in Ulkesh being
removed. He wouldn't tell Michael about it, because he didn't
want Ulkesh to scan him and find out. So why wasn't he worried
that the Vorlon might scan him? Something Lorien probably gave
him prevents that.
2. The ability to mask his own mental "image." The first
evidence we see for this is in "Epiphanies" when Bester attempts
to scan everyone in the conference room except for one,
Sheridan. Why not? The easy answer is that Lyta is blocking but
that doesn't hold up. He doesn't even try with him.
This really comes into the forefront when he sneaks up on Lyta,
even though she's in full lunatic telepath mode, over-amping the
whole room with telepathic energy. He then resists any attempt
by her to overpower him telepathically. We aren't told how he
does it, just the "You're not the only one to have been touched
by a Vorlon" speech he gives Lyta.
Neither of these abilities would make Sheridan a telepath, at
least in the terms that telepaths were defined on the show. It
made him *resistant* to them.
__!_!__
Gizmo
Iain Reid
"Mark Maher" <marka...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:UFwG4.3532$X21.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
That one is far easier than that. Remember, Sherridan still had part of
Kosh inside him at that point. The part of Kosh that he had inside him
would have been able to block out Ulkesh presumably. However, I think it's
also likely that Sherridan would have avoided Ulkesh as well. If you
remember, Ulkesh wasn't coming out of his quarters much at that point and so
would have been easily avoided. Garibaldi was the only one who was kept out
of the loop since he was the one that would actually have to face Ulkesh.
> 2. The ability to mask his own mental "image." The first
> evidence we see for this is in "Epiphanies" when Bester attempts
> to scan everyone in the conference room except for one,
> Sheridan. Why not? The easy answer is that Lyta is blocking but
> that doesn't hold up. He doesn't even try with him.
I think Bester simply hadn't got round to Sherridan yet...I think he was
just trying his luck, to see if he could pick anything up. He just tried
the others first before he got to Sherridan and was blocked each time by
Lyta. He then tried Lyta and she "bit back", presumably at this point
Bester realised that it was pointless to try and scan Sherridan after that
(since Lyta would block him) so he just gave up.
> This really comes into the forefront when he sneaks up on Lyta,
> even though she's in full lunatic telepath mode, over-amping the
> whole room with telepathic energy. He then resists any attempt
> by her to overpower him telepathically. We aren't told how he
> does it, just the "You're not the only one to have been touched
> by a Vorlon" speech he gives Lyta.
> Neither of these abilities would make Sheridan a telepath, at
> least in the terms that telepaths were defined on the show. It
> made him *resistant* to them.
On this I agree, although perhaps it was more specific than that. Lyta
wasn't just being a telepath, she was being a Vorlon weapon. She was using
powers that the Vorlons had specifically given to her. It seems likley that
after being in intimate contact with a Vorlon for so long, Sherridan would
have developed a resistance to their power - or even was gifted it by Kosh.
Iain Reid
David Chapple
Aubrey W. Adkins <xazq...@home.com> wrote in message
news:38EA49AF...@home.com...
> Jms at B5 wrote:
> >
> > >1) The total cop out regarding what it looks like inside Kosh's ship.
While
> > >I appreciate it would be hard to describe except, perhaps, in
metaphorical
> > >terms, I doubt Ivanova would've given up so easily, and I doubt John
would
> > >have been so incapable of stringing a few words together.
> >
I agree. Look what happened when Lucas took all the mystery out the "Force"
when he gave a detailed explanation in Episode 1.
Dave
No
> > matter how amazingly I had described Kosh's ship -- and I do happen to
know
> > what's inside and how it looks -- it would have eliminated the mystery
of it.
> > The way it's written, you can see anything you want, as big as you want,
and it
> > stays mysterious. It's the "behind the door" scenario: you hear
something
> > knocking on the other side of hte door, and for as long as you don't
open the
> > door, it could be ANYthing. The moment you open the door, and see that
it's a
> > six foot cockroach, you can think, "Well, it could be worse, it could've
been a
> > ten foot cockroach."
> >
Andrew M Swallow
>I don't think so. He didn't start out a telepath, that much
I accept Sheridan has never admited to being a teep. However in 'In The
Beginning' Chapter 5 General Leftcourt accuses Sheridan's father of cheating at
poker. One of the ways telepaths are detected.
Andrew Swallow
Shaz
People cheat at poker all the time. You don't need to be a telepath to do
that, just a card sharp.
I really think you're reaching here. Wwwwwwwwwaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy too
far!
Shaz
Tammy Smith
the story yet, & now, I *really* want to read it!
Tammy
Tom Holt
The message <20000405181048...@ng-cc1.news.cs.com>
from andrewm...@cs.com (Andrew M Swallow) contains these words:
> >>I was talking about Sheridan being a teep.
> [snip]
> >I don't think so. He didn't start out a telepath, that much
> >seems sure.[snip]
> I accept Sheridan has never admited to being a teep. However in 'In The
> Beginning' Chapter 5 General Leftcourt accuses Sheridan's father of cheating at
> poker. One of the ways telepaths are detected.
is able to withstand Lyta's spiffy mind-control powers because he too
has been Touched By A Vorlon -
( - which conjures up a mental image of a profoundly weird crossover
episode...)
- implying that Sheridan had at least some degree of psi-enhancement
ever since his initial close encounter with Kosh
Jms at B5
Shaz
"Tom Holt" <lemmi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:200004060...@zetnet.co.uk...
>
> The message <20000405181048...@ng-cc1.news.cs.com>
> from andrewm...@cs.com (Andrew M Swallow) contains these words:
>
>
> > >>I was talking about Sheridan being a teep.
> > [snip]
> > >I don't think so. He didn't start out a telepath, that much
> > >seems sure.[snip]
>
> > I accept Sheridan has never admited to being a teep. However in 'In The
> > Beginning' Chapter 5 General Leftcourt accuses Sheridan's father of
cheating at
> > poker. One of the ways telepaths are detected.
>
> There's also the enigmatic bit somewhere in season 5 where Sheridan
> is able to withstand Lyta's spiffy mind-control powers because he too
> has been Touched By A Vorlon -
>
> ( - which conjures up a mental image of a profoundly weird crossover
> episode...)
Please don't. Although if anyone could do it well, you could, but that
series makes me gag. Even my mother, who normally goes for this sort of
thing, found it sufficiently saccharine to need an emetic!
> - implying that Sheridan had at least some degree of psi-enhancement
> ever since his initial close encounter with Kosh
I still don't think he's a telepath, merely resistant to them and to Vorlon
control. There's a big difference.
Shaz
Andrew M Swallow
>Date: 06/04/00 01:49 GMT Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20000405204920...@ng-fg1.aol.com>
Andrew Swallow
Iain Clark
"Iain Reid" <theva...@callnet0800.com> wrote in message
news:8cfh3v$6bpa6$1...@fu-berlin.de...
>
> "Mark Maher" <marka...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:UFwG4.3532$X21.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > Andrew M Swallow wrote in message
Spoiler space!
v
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> > <SNIPPED>
> > >I was talking about Sheridan being a teep.
<snip>
> > Neither of these abilities would make Sheridan a telepath, at
> > least in the terms that telepaths were defined on the show. It
> > made him *resistant* to them.
I must say I didn't get any impression for the story that Sheridan was a
teep in the conventional sense - just that having carried the fragment of
Kosh (and possibly the presence Lorien's energy) had left him marked in a
subtle way that sensitised him to the presence of Shadow and Vorlon tech.
Or did I miss something?
Lisa Coulter
Andrew M Swallow wrote:
> >>I was talking about Sheridan being a teep.
> [snip]
> >I don't think so. He didn't start out a telepath, that much
> >seems sure.[snip]
>
> I accept Sheridan has never admited to being a teep. However in 'In The
> Beginning' Chapter 5 General Leftcourt accuses Sheridan's father of cheating at
> poker. One of the ways telepaths are detected.
>
> Andrew Swallow
Oh, come on, lots of people cheat at poker - I think you are reading way too much
into this. Sheridan was sensitized and protected from Vorlons / Shadows due to
Kosh and Lorien - it's Occam's razor.
Lisa Coulter
Lisa Coulter
Jms at B5 wrote:
> Sheridan is *definitely* not a teep.
>
> jms
>
> (jms...@aol.com)
> B5 Official Fan Club at:
> http://www.thestation.com
> (all message content (c) 2000 by
> synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
> to reprint specifically denied to
> SFX Magazine)
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
"Fiath manages" - Delenn
Lisa Coulter
The Nuclear Marine
Jms at B5 wrote:
>
> Sheridan is *definitely* not a teep.
>
> jms
>
> (jms...@aol.com)
> B5 Official Fan Club at:
> http://www.thestation.com
> (all message content (c) 2000 by
> synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
> to reprint specifically denied to
> SFX Magazine)
==============================
Randomly amusing sig deleted as I have just been informed that in fact
it was not funny.
Nuke (making a vague point)
Jms at B5
>>
>> jms
>
>Prove it
>
One cannot prove a negative.
I can only tell you this from one perspective: having created the character in
the first place.
If you've got a better source than that, I'd like to hear it.
Dwight Williams
>
> >> Sheridan is *definitely* not a teep.
> >>
> >> jms
>
> >Prove it
>
> One cannot prove a negative.
> I can only tell you this from one perspective: having created the character in
> the first place.
> If you've got a better source than that, I'd like to hear it.
That *would* tend to moot any arguments to the contrary.
> (jms...@aol.com)
> B5 Official Fan Club at:
> http://www.thestation.com
> (all message content (c) 2000 by
> synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
> to reprint specifically denied to
> SFX Magazine)
--
Dwight Williams(ad...@freenet.carleton.ca) -- Orleans, Ontario, Canada
Maintainer/Founder - DEOList for _Chase_ Fandom
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Andrew M Swallow
>>>
>>> jms
>>
>
>>Prove it
>>
>
>One cannot prove a negative.
>
>I can only tell you this from one perspective: having created the character
>in
>the first place.
>
>If you've got a better source than that, I'd like to hear it.
>
Writing as the person who through Sheridan was a secret telepath, correct there
is no better source.
For half proof, what we would have liked is an incident in which a secret
telepath would take action (a) but a mundane would do (b). Sheridan always
takes action (a). A secret telepath may know someone is lieing, but like code
breakers, can not take action until alternative proof has been manufactured.
I was fooled because when ever we reach a situation that shows Sheridan can not
be a telepath, you provide a brilliant way out. Normally involving Psi Corps
Director Kevin Vacit. For instance making Psi Cops unable to detect P13s was a
masterstroke.
Thank you for such an enjoyable set of stories.
Andrew Swallow
Pelzo63
>That *would* tend to moot any arguments to the >contrary.
logically speaking, it would, but this is usenet, since when does logic matter?
<g>
---Chris AOL/AIM--pelzo63
http://members.aol.com/pelzo63/welcome.html
excuse me, mr hasek, i found your jock, it was in the upper deck.
David C.
> JMS Wrote:
>>
>> SPOILERS PUT IN JUST IN CASE!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> No matter what I would've described, somebody would have said, "Well,
>> it wasn't as special as *I* imagined it would be." So best to keep
>> the mystery intact.
>
> say! It's YOUR story! If you say the interior looks like Amanda
> King's kitchen complete with floral curtains, THAT'S what it looks
But there is also the problem that mysterious alien things (like the
interior of a Vorlon ship) may not be easily describable in print.
For example, note the ending sequence of "2001: A Space Odyssey". The
book went into a lot of very surreal imagery. The movie skipped over
that imagery and then cut to an image of a giant fetus floating in
space.
In both cases, I'm sure Arthur C. Clarke intended the reader/viewer to
come away with an impression other than utter confusion. The impression
I (and most of my family) got was "What the heck just happened? What
could that scene have possibly contributed to the story?" It probably
would have been better to just drop a few hints and leave the rest alone
The book went into far too much detail, while the movie provided none at
all - neither of which was very good to the audience.
(No, I'm not sure how the movie could have been done better. Although I
do have some ideas about how I'd have done the book - and I think
Dr. Clarke has the same ideas, because he went back and described what
happened far more clearly in the sequel novel 3001.)
-- David
The Nuclear Marine
Jms at B5 wrote:
>
> >> Sheridan is *definitely* not a teep.
> >>
> >Prove it
> One cannot prove a negative.
>
> I can only tell you this from one perspective: having created the character in
> the first place.
>
> If you've got a better source than that, I'd like to hear it.
>
> jms
>
The point was not to deny what you currently think of Sheridan's psychic
status in the B5 world. Even you stated that until it hits film or
print it is not completely canon, even a newsgroup post (can't recall
the situations but should be there). You've been semi-ambushed before
by people using your previous post from 10 years ago to make a point on
such and such 2 minute event in episode 76 and how dare you lie to them
*sarcasm off*.
Let's face it, you're going to die as humans tend to do from time to
time. Hopefully B5 lives on past your physical life. In which case you
are not going to be the handy dandy reference for every little nit
picking idea. People will only have your work left to muse on about.
Sure it boils down to glorified Fan Fic that WB happens to approve when
it comes to official releases. And by the gods let it not end up as
twisted threads like another well known futuristic fantasy franchise.
For the Sheridan teep idea, I personally never saw any evidence placed
in the show to suggest it. But then no evidence that Lennier died in
the Teep War has been given either. We only have the Usenet posting to
gather the story more fully around us (which I always felt made the
story more personnal to the myself as a fan so thank you). But what if
the muse hit you like it did G'Kar and you decide to go against what you
previously wrote in Usenet to make a greater story onscreen (fate is
funny that way, non?).
My point was you didn't have to prove ideas about Sheridan being a
telepath. Ivanova may not be a telepath, just a mundane so close to her
mother she thought it was telepathy. Lyta didn't die really but pulled
an Ironheart. The Great Machine still has a greater deeper purpose.
Vorlons don't breath. You asked for the better source and I give you
speculation. You've written stories that even you don't remember
writing thus also left a little of the subconcious in there. These
vague areas have a great purpose in Speculative Fiction...speculation.
What was the point of killing (well, maybe kill is to harsh a word) a
thread concerning a character you created because it goes against what
you consciously know about him. You could prove it by writing a short
story on how in Sheridan's interrogations by Clark's goons revealed him
as nothing more than any other mundane. You didn't as it would not have
advanced the story I guess. It got people discussing points about the
series in a different perspective. Would it have been so bad to let the
story show that Sheridan wasn't a telepath? Sure as hell is alot
better than the "jms posted in '95 about that and Talia is deader than
disco and another fellow said her brain is decorating Bester's desk".
Over time the questions and answers repeat themselves but then I sit
back and smugly quote "he is returning to the beginning".
Anyway, its your fault for creating such a mythic story (and again thank
you for that).
========================================
Myth - truth told in a fictional form.
Nuke
John W. Kennedy
> logically speaking, it would, but this is usenet, since when does logic matter?
I don't know.... If Jews can argue with God, "Show where it says so in
the Torah!", I _suppose_ it's possible to argue with JMS over facts of
the B5 universe.
--
-John W. Kennedy
-rri...@ibm.net
Compact is becoming contract
Man only earns and pays. -- Charles Williams
Iain Reid
"John W. Kennedy" <jwke...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in message
news:38F0AD54...@bellatlantic.net...
> Pelzo63 wrote:
> > logically speaking, it would, but this is usenet, since when does logic
matter?
>
> I don't know.... If Jews can argue with God, "Show where it says so in
> the Torah!", I _suppose_ it's possible to argue with JMS over facts of
> the B5 universe.
There is also the argument in literary criticsism that you can't trust
anything other than what is written in the text - and that includes the
author's own opinion. Since, when people are writing, they may be including
things on a subconcious level that not even they themselves realise is going
into the work. So, the argument goes, JMS could have thought that Sherridan
was a teep on a subconcious level, and written the story like that, and only
we as impartial, objective viewers could determine if that was actually
part of the story. JMS himself is too close to be objective, therefor his
opinion doesn't count.
Of course, personally I think this is all so much bunkum, and strikes me as
simply being an excuse for being able to say anything they want about a
piece of literature and making sure noone is able to categorically refute
them - not even they guy (or gal) who wrote it! It is the one thing that
increasingly irritates me as I go through my English degree...oh well, at
least it makes writing essays easier since they can never say you are wrong,
only that you haven't argued the point well enough...:)
Iain Reid
Mark Maher
>
>There is also the argument in literary criticsism that you
can't trust
>anything other than what is written in the text - and that
includes the
>author's own opinion. Since, when people are writing, they may
be including
>things on a subconcious level that not even they themselves
realise is going
>into the work. So, the argument goes, JMS could have thought
that Sherridan
>was a teep on a subconcious level, and written the story like
that, and only
>we as impartial, objective viewers could determine if that was
actually
>part of the story. JMS himself is too close to be objective,
therefor his
>opinion doesn't count.
We have seen a couple of prime examples where one of the
characters and jms had a disagreement over upcoming events and
the characters would win out. First time he brought this up wa
when Kosh got killed and the second is when Vir winds up being
the one to kill Cartagia. In both cases, jms attributed it to
his own subconscious knowing something about that the character
that he was trying to ignore or put off.
I think that if there was any chance that Sheridan was a
super-teep, the character would have forced it out of jms and
onto the page.
And I tend to agree with your analysis that this is all just
wasted bandwidth because someone has a particular notion and
can't take "no, you're wrong about that." for an answer.
__!_!__
Gizmo
Andrew M Swallow
>super-teep, the character would have forced it out of jms and
>onto the page.
Sheridan has done. He telepathically blocked Lyta's probe in 'The Wheel of
Fire' and detected the Shadowtech in 'Hidden Agendas'.
The question being debated is 'The person known as John Sheridan has strong
telepathic abilities. Is he a teep?'
There appears to be a hidden definition here.
To be a teep - you have to be born with telepathic genes, have telepathic
powers and possibly be able to pass them on to your children.
So from where did Sheridan get his telepathic abiliries?
(a). at birth, like all Psi Corps members.
(b). or when the Vorlons did something to him (similar to uses of the drug
Dust).
(c). or both, like Lyta.
To be born a teep at least one of his parents would have to be a teep. I took
the reference to Sheridan's father cheating at cards in an unknown way to be a
strong hint that the father was a teep. Calling someones father a card cheat
is definately not good man management. In the Hornblower books cheeting at
cards was taken as adequate justification for a duel.
Would Sheridan's father hide being a teep? Possibly, there are major
restrictions on the jobs that telepaths can perform. This definately includes
being a member of Earthforce (see Harriman Gray in 'Eyes') and could include
the (main) Diplomatic Service.
Ivanova either knew or guessed that Sheridan was sensitive to Shadow Technology
('Hidden Agendas') because Kosh had been inside of him. This points to option
(b) Sheridan is a modified mundane. [Although Sheridan does actually say that
this was the start of his telepathic abilities.]
JMS has said that Sheridan is not a teep. Giving very strong evidence to (b).
After all for option (c) the Vorlons would probably have had to spend the last
800 years breeding the Shridan family; rather than allowing evolution to crawl
to imperfection (Koshism from the book 'Dark Genesis').
Andrew Swallow
Wesley Struebing
<jwke...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>Pelzo63 wrote:
>> logically speaking, it would, but this is usenet, since when does logic matter?
>
>I don't know.... If Jews can argue with God, "Show where it says so in
>the Torah!", I _suppose_ it's possible to argue with JMS over facts of
>the B5 universe.
'twouldn't be the first time. I don't remember specifics now (it's
been far too many years to count), but my English teacher freshman
year in high school was instructing us on criticism, and brought up
the story that a critic once stated so-and-so about a book. The
author came back and said that wasn't what he was trying to say at
all, whereupon the critic retorted that the author had no idea what he
was trying to say...
Mark Maher
telepath, just resistant to them. Probably something that
Lorien's life-energy provided. Lorien would have been resistant
to Vorlon telepathy.
If he had been a telepath, do you think he'd have gone into that
bar and sat down with Garibaldi without scanning first? No way -
there was too much on the line. But his being resistant to
telepaths does track with events of "Intersections in Real
Time." His interrogator could not pin down what John was using
to hold on with.
__!_!__
Gizmo
Andrew M Swallow wrote in message
<20000410170820...@ng-cs1.news.cs.com>...
>>I think that if there was any chance that Sheridan was a
>>super-teep, the character would have forced it out of jms and
>>onto the page.
>
>Sheridan has done. He telepathically blocked Lyta's probe in
'The Wheel of
>Fire' and detected the Shadowtech in 'Hidden Agendas'.
>
<SNIPPED FOR SPACE SAVING>
Shaz
> Believe what you will. You're reaching. Sheridan was not a
> telepath, just resistant to them. Probably something that
> Lorien's life-energy provided. Lorien would have been resistant
> to Vorlon telepathy.
>
> If he had been a telepath, do you think he'd have gone into that
> bar and sat down with Garibaldi without scanning first? No way -
> there was too much on the line. But his being resistant to
> telepaths does track with events of "Intersections in Real
> Time." His interrogator could not pin down what John was using
> to hold on with.
What he was holding on to, so far as I can tell, was the image of Delenn.
They can tell you the aliens are the bad guys, but if you can hang on to the
image of the alien you love and who you KNOW isn't a bad guy and would stand
by you no matter what, their lies are going to be a lot easier to resist.
Her image brought him back from the dead and saved him from Clark's
interrogators.
And Joe makes out he isn't a romantic.
HA!
Shaz
Jay Denebeim
The Nuclear Marine <nuke-...@home.com> wrote:
>What was the point of killing (well, maybe kill is to harsh a word) a
>thread concerning a character you created because it goes against
>what you consciously know about him.
So, Joe, do you ever regret putting telepaths into your story?
Jay
--
* Jay Denebeim Moderator rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated *
* newsgroup submission address: b5...@deepthot.aurora.co.us *
* moderator contact address: b5mod-...@deepthot.aurora.co.us *
* personal contact address: dene...@deepthot.aurora.co.us *
Lisa Coulter
The Nuclear Marine wrote:
> Jms at B5 wrote:
> >
> > >> Sheridan is *definitely* not a teep.
> > >>
> > >Prove it
> > One cannot prove a negative.
> >
> > I can only tell you this from one perspective: having created the character in
> > the first place.
> >
> > If you've got a better source than that, I'd like to hear it.
> >
> > jms
> >
> For the Sheridan teep idea, I personally never saw any evidence placed
> in the show to suggest it. But then no evidence that Lennier died in
> the Teep War has been given either. We only have the Usenet posting to
> gather the story more fully around us (which I always felt made the
> story more personnal to the myself as a fan so thank you). But what if
> the muse hit you like it did G'Kar and you decide to go against what you
> previously wrote in Usenet to make a greater story onscreen (fate is
> funny that way, non?).
Actually, I bleive the third Telepath book makes clear Lennier's fate as well -
hence we have a "printed" source.
For myself, when jms responds like this, I tend to believe him.
In addition, given his statements about Sheridan/ Delenn and the EM war, I find it
hard to believe she could keep "anything" secret (he hasn't been trained as a teep
after all) if he was a teep. Kind of cuts down those old "Delenn is a
manipulative,....."threads that we used to have.
"Faith manages" Delenn
In the endm there is alwasy the sunrise.....
Lisa Coulter
Jms at B5
their own against a mid-level teep for a little bit. We even had the guy who
tried to shoot Garibaldi fighting Lyta for a moment.
jms
Andrew M Swallow
>telepath, just resistant to them. Probably something that
>Lorien's life-energy provided. Lorien would have been resistant
>to Vorlon telepathy.
That is another way of gaining telepathic powers. It could have replace
Kosh,who may have been camouflaging Sheridan when they went to Z'ha'dum.
As for not being a telepath because he was not born one - do you think Mr
Bester would accept this as an adequate excuse to free a suspected blimp? Or
if Mr Bester found a human that could generate a block stronger than a Psi
Cop's probe and camouflage himself against all the Psi Cops running around
Babylon 5 in 'Phoenix Rising' would he (try) and arrest him on the spot?
>If he had been a telepath, do you think he'd have gone into that
>bar and sat down with Garibaldi without scanning first? No way -
>there was too much on the line.
As I recall Sheridan met Garibaldi in the bar. He would have had to scan him
through the walls - possibly but difficult. You are assuming that Sheridan
wishes to avoid getting caught. He seems to get "line of site" of some
interesting people - Justin in "Z'ha'dum" and both the General and Earth
President in 'Rising Star'. Who knows what military intelligence comes out of
that!
Andrew Swallow
Iain Reid
"Andrew M Swallow" <andrewm...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20000411174118...@ng-fc1.news.cs.com...
> As for not being a telepath because he was not born one - do you think Mr
> Bester would accept this as an adequate excuse to free a suspected blimp?
Sherridan was a suspected blimp? Did someone mistake him for Captain Kirk?
Iain Reid
Lisa Coulter
Shaz wrote:
> "Mark Maher" <marka...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:9ivI4.13983$ei.5...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> > Believe what you will. You're reaching. Sheridan was not a
> > telepath, just resistant to them. Probably something that
> > Lorien's life-energy provided. Lorien would have been resistant
> > to Vorlon telepathy.
> >
> > If he had been a telepath, do you think he'd have gone into that
> > bar and sat down with Garibaldi without scanning first? No way -
> > there was too much on the line. But his being resistant to
> > telepaths does track with events of "Intersections in Real
> > Time." His interrogator could not pin down what John was using
> > to hold on with.
>
> What he was holding on to, so far as I can tell, was the image of Delenn.
> They can tell you the aliens are the bad guys, but if you can hang on to the
> image of the alien you love and who you KNOW isn't a bad guy and would stand
> by you no matter what, their lies are going to be a lot easier to resist.
> Her image brought him back from the dead and saved him from Clark's
> interrogators.
>
> And Joe makes out he isn't a romantic.
>
> HA!
>
> Shaz
Yeag, wekk. Given Sheridan/ Delenn (mostly) and Garibaldi/Lise (secondarily)....
Go, romance!
Faith manages. - Delenn
In the end, there is always the sunrise.....
Lisa Coulter
Sue
Swallow) wrote:
>>I think that if there was any chance that Sheridan was a
>>super-teep, the character would have forced it out of jms and
>>onto the page.
>
>Sheridan has done. He telepathically blocked Lyta's probe in 'The Wheel of
>Fire' and detected the Shadowtech in 'Hidden Agendas'.
This was the remnants of the Vorlon inside him, though, not
necessarily telepathy.
Sue
Wesley Struebing
Absolutely. We wouldn't have had "Intersections in Real Time", if
Nuclear Johnnie were even a bit telepathic. He'd never have fallen
for Garibaldi's ruse to get him to Mars.
(I realize you can argue that he WANTED to believe that Garibaldi was
sincere, but their meeting in that dive would have have gone down
quite differently - imho)
And he's too clueless later on a IA president.
He also didn't detect the Shadowtech (well, maybe Drakh-tech, based on
Shadowtech) in "A Call to Arms".