Fan Club FYI
Jms at B5
still open, and the Gold Channel is now available to everyone, and that the
season 3 Babylon 5 jackets -- identical to the ones given to cast and crew --
are still available.
Link is below.
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
B5 Official Fan Club at:
http://www.thestation.com
(all message content (c) 2000 by
synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
to reprint specifically denied to
SFX Magazine)
Michael J. Hennebry
How come Bester and company had jurisdiction over *all* the
telepaths holed up on B5? Weren't any of them born on Mars?
For sure some of them had resided on Mars for a while. That's
where PsiCorps had a concentration camp.
--
Mike henn...@plains.NoDak.edu
"I'm just an old country doctor." -- Bones
Tammy Smith
Tammy
Mark Maher
Michael J. Hennebry wrote in message
<8b5evm$6...@plains.nodak.edu>...
>
>How come Bester and company had jurisdiction over *all* the
>telepaths holed up on B5? Weren't any of them born on Mars?
>For sure some of them had resided on Mars for a while. That's
>where PsiCorps had a concentration camp.
>
The timing of events complicates matters a little. Mars had just
been granted independence from direct Earth rule by executive
order from President Luchenko (with a figurative gun held to her
head by Sheridan) and I doubt very much that Psi Corps respected
that decision.
Even if they did, virtually all Martian-born "people" were still
human by species and Psi Corps had jurisdiction over all human
telepaths. Because Sheridan dropped the ball by not granting
Byron's group immunity from EarthGov's own regulations on human
telepaths, Bester was completely legitimate in coming to Babylon
5 to capture Byron's group. Babylon 5 may have been independent
territory from Earth Alliance, but Sheridan and Delenn's
statements that the Interstellar Alliance would not interfere in
how each member race governed its own people allowed Psi Corps
access to and authority over Byron's group.
__!_!__
Gizmo
Iain Reid
"Mark Maher" <marka...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:ahvB4.7761$9M1.5...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
There is a problem though. As a free state Mars could enforce its position
over Psi Corps interference since politically speaking, the Martians were
no longer part of the same human race as Earth Alliance citizens. I
suspect that, if things had went smoothly (eg. the Telepath War hadn't
happened) they would eventually realise that they did not want a valuable
resource such as Telepaths to still be controlled from Earth.
I imagine this would be less relevant because, as you pointed out, it took
place in what was in effect a transitional period for Mars in its break from
EarthGov. Also, it would be unclear at this point in establishing just who
was a citizen of Mars and who was not. All these things were probably being
dealt with by the provisional government - and until they did things were
very likley up in the air, so to speak. It takes Bureaucracy a long time to
trundle through these things - and untill someone says otherwise, it is
generally assumed that things are done as before.
Also, as Bester said, every race has had to come up with a way of dealing
with the problem of Telepaths. While you are trying to set up a government
of your own you would probably be quite happy to let a third, already
esatblished, party deal with such problems for the time being.
As JMS made clear throughout the series - the Telepaths were seen as almost
a seperate race from mundanes - an oppressed people. The Martians
themselves were also an oppressed people and I think JMS is a good enough
observer of human nature to realised that people who are oppressed
themselves have very little time for stopping the oppression of others. So
the MarsGov was probably very unconcerned with the fate of a bunch of
telepaths whose citizenship was unclear and who would not have worked for
them even if Mars had interceded. This would leave Bester free to act as he
saw fit.
Iain Reid.
Jms at B5
>telepaths holed up on B5? Weren't any of them born on Mars?
>For sure some of them had resided on Mars for a while. That's
>where PsiCorps had a concentration camp.
There seems to be some confusion over what independence means in this thread.
Mars won independence in that it was no longer an Earth COLONY, unable to set
up its own goverment and such. But it is still part of the Earth ALLIANCE,
consisting of various worlds, and the Psi Corps works for the Alliance.
Mark Maher
__!_!__
Gizmo
Iain Reid wrote in message <8b66dn$34ddn$4...@fu-berlin.de>...
>
>"Mark Maher" <marka...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
>news:ahvB4.7761$9M1.5...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net..
..
>>
>> Michael J. Hennebry wrote in message
>> <8b5evm$6...@plains.nodak.edu>...
>> >
>> >How come Bester and company had jurisdiction over *all* the
>> >telepaths holed up on B5? Weren't any of them born on Mars?
>> >For sure some of them had resided on Mars for a while.
That's
>> >where PsiCorps had a concentration camp.
>> >
>>
John W. Kennedy
> There is a problem though. As a free state Mars could enforce its position
> over Psi Corps interference since politically speaking, the Martians were
> no longer part of the same human race as Earth Alliance citizens.
But that's not how law works. Every British law and legal precedent
that applied in the USA on the morning of July 2, 1776 still applies in
the USA to this day, unless an express action has been taken to change
it.
In 2262, there may have enabling legislation in place pertaining to
devolution of Psi Corps (Mars) from Psi Corps (Earth), but I'd bet
anything that nothing major had happened yet.
--
-John W. Kennedy
-rri...@ibm.net
Compact is becoming contract
Man only earns and pays. -- Charles Williams
Andrew M Swallow
'Strange Relations' - too soon after independence. Psi Corps would know that
they only had a few weeks to act before Babylon 5 and Mars passed laws against
them.
I am suprised that Bester and the blood hound units were still on Mars by 'The
Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father'. The blood hound units attacked the Mars
Resistance - making telepaths very unpopular, as Lyta found out. I would have
expected someone to have attacked Psi Corps or told them to depart.
Andrew Swallow
Michael J. Hennebry
Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
>There seems to be some confusion over what independence means in this thread.
>
>Mars won independence in that it was no longer an Earth COLONY, unable to set
>up its own goverment and such. But it is still part of the Earth ALLIANCE,
>consisting of various worlds, and the Psi Corps works for the Alliance.
Ouch. Not as independent as I'd expect that the Martians had in mind.
How much independence they would have in practice is a question that
would be answered by EarthGov. Considering events and attitudes during
the Clark and post-Clark eras, that would not have bode well for Mars.
Earth's isolation might help that a bit, though even the Martians might
regard the price as a bit high.
Of course there is still the question of how members of the Interstellar
Alliance will handle migration. Will those making a new home come
under the jurisdiction of their new homes? What about pre-alliance
migrants, e.g. the telepathic girl who emigrated to Minbar?
Mark Maher
<20000320204820...@ng-da1.news.cs.com>...
If you'll recall from "Deadly Relations: Bester Ascendant," Psi
Corps didn't exactly play nice on Mars for a couple of very good
reasons. First and foremost - one of their most important secret
facilities was on Mars. Second, as was shown repeatedly during
the both series, Mars was not the safest, most stable place in
the neighborhood. It was much more like the frontier cattle
towns in the days of the old cattle drives of the last century.
Does the name Dodge City ring a bell?
P-12 level telepaths were too few in numbers to play nice when
they needed information or when they were attacked. Did normals
distrust/fear telepaths to some degree everywhere? Sure, but
that distrust/fear was very much heightened on Mars. And that
fear was very well earned. Psi Cops (and other high-level
telepaths) did routine deep scans on anyone, often without
warrant or other real probable cause. Bester fried a woman's
mind into uselessness in full view of a crowd at a tube station
once (in all fairness, the woman had just thrown a knife at his
assistant). So my guess would be that the operative rules for
getting by on Mars around Psi Corps was don't get in their way
and hope to whomever you call god that they don't come looking
for you.
__!_!__
Gizmo
Mark Maher
state worlds in the Earth Alliance during the era of the Babylon
5 show. Proxima 3 was one such stand-alone state, Orion 7 (I
believe) was another. Both of them broke with Earth Alliance
following the bombings by Clark on Mars. Much like today's state
governments in the context of being a part of the United States.
They all share some common overall laws and have certain
allegiances to the central state but are left to deal with their
own local problems in their own way.
The problem with Mars is it's just too big, too close, too
dependent on imports from Earth, and too full of exploitable
resources for EarthGov (and the MegaCorps running everything) to
let it out from under their direct control.
As for Alisa, the young telepath who went to Minbar at the
conclusion of "Legacies," she lives in the jurisdiction of the
Minbari Federation, not Earth Alliance. Psi Corps has no
knowledge of her and even if they did, they have no jurisdiction
in Minbari space (it might be helpful to remember that the
Minbari do not take kindly to unwelcome intrusions into their
space). Any request for a formal extradition would certainly be
rejected by Minbar and any attempt to retrieve her through other
means would be *suicidal* at best.
As for the time after the end of 2262, if you will recall, Psi
Corps installations were starting to get hit heavily by
resistance movements. By the time of Crusade, it was no more.
Though we aren't told this directly, the implication is that the
new rules are a lot more benign towards telepaths than their
enforced enslavement at the hands of Psi Corps.
And yes, Mars had a very hard time establishing their
independence as a member state within the Earth Alliance. The
Confederacy was not re-integrated with tender loving care back
into the United States. The fact that Mars was having to fight
tooth-and-nail was brought up on numerous occasions.
Michael J. Hennebry wrote in message
<8b86a0$1...@plains.nodak.edu>...
Pelzo63
>Any request for a formal extradition would certainly be
>rejected by Minbar and any attempt to retrieve her through other
>means would be *suicidal* at best
but it would have been a good oppurtunity to hear delenn's "only one man has
ever survived" speech, no? <g> besides, maybe bester wouldhave had tha
arrogance to try it, then it would have been really good to watch.
---chris AOL/AIM--Pelzo63
http://members.aol.com/pelzo63/welcome.html
dunno which hurts more, the sunburn, the windburn, or the sand blasting. gotta
love the desert..
Iain Reid
"Jms at B5" <jms...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000320182140...@ng-bk1.aol.com...
> >How come Bester and company had jurisdiction over *all* the
> >telepaths holed up on B5? Weren't any of them born on Mars?
> >For sure some of them had resided on Mars for a while. That's
> >where PsiCorps had a concentration camp.
>
thread.
>
> Mars won independence in that it was no longer an Earth COLONY, unable to
set
> up its own goverment and such. But it is still part of the Earth
ALLIANCE,
> consisting of various worlds, and the Psi Corps works for the Alliance.
>
So it is sort of analagous to what would happen if my own country of
Scotland when ( not if ;o) ) it becomes independant from the UK. It is
likely that when this happens, Scotland would become a sovreign state but it
would choose to remain in the European Union (thus the Scottish National
Party's slogan of "An Independant Scotland in Europe").
If this is the case Earth would be England, Mars would be Scotland and the
Earth Alliance would be the European Union (with the Moon possibly
representing Wales ;)).
Does this mean that Mars will still be protected by Earth Force (and if so,
will they have to contribute troops as member nations have to when Europe
goes to war)? Also, if Mars chooses to, could it opt out of the Earth
Alliance at some time in the future?
Iain Reid
Andrew M Swallow
>Corps didn't exactly play nice on Mars for a couple of very good
>reasons. First and foremost - one of their most important secret
>facilities was on Mars.
I do recall these actions. They all happened atleast 5 years before
independence. I would expect Mars to be more like France after Liberation.
Most Germans decided to leave.
Andrew Swallow
Andrew M Swallow
>conclusion of "Legacies," she lives in the jurisdiction of the
>Minbari Federation, not Earth Alliance. Psi Corps has no
>knowledge of her and even if they did, they have no jurisdiction
>in Minbari space (it might be helpful to remember that the
>Minbari do not take kindly to unwelcome intrusions into their
>rejected by Minbar and any attempt to retrieve her through other
You mean that Alisa was not a spy for Psi Corps and Earth Force? :-) At least
in the offical files that Talia and Susan would have had to write. They had
infultrated her into the one place a mundane spy can not go - the Minbari Psi
organization. Even if the truth was different.
Andrew Swallow
Jms at B5
>Earth Alliance would be the European Union (with the Moon possibly
>representing Wales ;)).
>
You even try to drag bagpipes into this and I'm coming over there with a stick.
>Does this mean that Mars will still be protected by Earth Force (and if so,
>will they have to contribute troops as member nations have to when Europe
>goes to war)? Also, if Mars chooses to, could it opt out of the Earth
>Alliance at some time in the future?
>
Yes and yes, though the latter only with great difficulty and risk.
Aubrey W. Adkins
I am assuming that Mars opting out of the EA would be like the state
Indiana trying to become an independent country. Not likely.
Aubrey
Susan Phillips
>I bought the 3rd-season jacket--can't wait to get it!
So did I...but I have a question. If the light jacket is the third season,
which season was the one that's like a stadium jacket with the same starburst
design on the back but no patches?
Sue
"How can you be anal-retentive if you don't have an anus?"
Bartleby, "Dogma"
Jabberwocky
> >If this is the case Earth would be England, Mars would be Scotland and
> >the
> >Earth Alliance would be the European Union (with the Moon possibly
> >representing Wales ;)).
> >
>
> You even try to drag bagpipes into this and I'm coming over there with a
> stick.
>
>
> jms
>
> (jms...@aol.com)
> B5 Official Fan Club at:
> http://www.thestation.com
> (all message content (c) 2000 by
> synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
> to reprint specifically denied to
> SFX Magazine)
>
I happen to like the sound of Bagpipes :-)
Anyone for the song "The Battle of Glen Eurann"
--
____________________________________________________
Jabberwocky Treasurer of Final Fronter SFFS
www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/7437/finalfsfs.html
____________________________________________________
Michael J. Hennebry
John W. Kennedy <jwke...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>But that's not how law works. Every British law and legal precedent
>that applied in the USA on the morning of July 2, 1776 still applies in
>the USA to this day, unless an express action has been taken to change
>it.
One of the changes is that the British police don't enforce US laws.
Michael J. Hennebry
Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
>>If this is the case Earth would be England, Mars would be Scotland and the
>>Earth Alliance would be the European Union (with the Moon possibly
>>representing Wales ;)).
>>
>
>You even try to drag bagpipes into this and I'm coming over there with a stick.
>
>>will they have to contribute troops as member nations have to when Europe
>>goes to war)? Also, if Mars chooses to, could it opt out of the Earth
>>Alliance at some time in the future?
>>
>
>Yes and yes, though the latter only with great difficulty and risk.
I gather that the difficulty and risk would be from unfriendly actions
taken by EarthGov, it's refusal to acknowledge Martian ident cards for a
minor example. A food boycott would be a fairly major possibility.
Earth's quarantine no doubt had the effect of a fairly complete boycott.
Tammy Smith
patches, Sue. I like the 3rd season one because it has the shield-logo
patch, which I like.
Tammy
Dwight Williams
>
> >How come Bester and company had jurisdiction over *all* the
> >telepaths holed up on B5? Weren't any of them born on Mars?
> >For sure some of them had resided on Mars for a while. That's
> >where PsiCorps had a concentration camp.
>
> There seems to be some confusion over what independence means in this thread.
Indeed.
> Mars won independence in that it was no longer an Earth COLONY, unable to set
> up its own goverment and such. But it is still part of the Earth ALLIANCE,
> consisting of various worlds, and the Psi Corps works for the Alliance.
Ah hah. Thanks for confirming that. I'd wondered if the deal Sheridan
struck with Earthdome meant that Mars was in fact a full-voting member
of the EA, equal to the US, the Russian Consortium and so forth.
> (jms...@aol.com)
> B5 Official Fan Club at:
> http://www.thestation.com
> (all message content (c) 2000 by
> synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
> to reprint specifically denied to
> SFX Magazine)
--
Dwight Williams(ad...@freenet.carleton.ca) -- Orleans, Ontario, Canada
Maintainer/Founder - DEOList for _Chase_ Fandom
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Maher
<38DABDB1...@freenet.carleton.ca>...
>Jms at B5 wrote:
>>
>> >How come Bester and company had jurisdiction over *all* the
>> >telepaths holed up on B5? Weren't any of them born on Mars?
>> >For sure some of them had resided on Mars for a while.
That's
>> >where PsiCorps had a concentration camp.
>>
>> There seems to be some confusion over what independence means
in this thread.
>
>Indeed.
>
>> Mars won independence in that it was no longer an Earth
COLONY, unable to set
>> up its own goverment and such. But it is still part of the
Earth ALLIANCE,
>> consisting of various worlds, and the Psi Corps works for the
Alliance.
>
>Ah hah. Thanks for confirming that. I'd wondered if the deal
Sheridan
>struck with Earthdome meant that Mars was in fact a full-voting
member
>of the EA, equal to the US, the Russian Consortium and so
forth.
>
There are actually several factors that contributed to Bester
and the Psi Cops being able to go after Byron's bunch:
1. Babylon 5 was still *independent* of Earth Alliance.
Technically, that meant that it was neutral ground and should
have been a safe haven for Byron's group. However...
2. Sheridan and Delenn had both reassured the new provisional
government on Earth that each member of the Interstellar
Alliance would be allowed to govern it's own people as it saw
fit; the ISA would not interfere unless a given member was
violating one of the founding principles of the Alliance (which
it was still struggling to put into words, as we saw early on).
And as jms himself stated, Psi Corps worked for the whole of the
Earth Alliance, of which Mars was still a member.
3. The newly-established Earth government still followed
existing laws for telepaths, meaning they all belonged to Psi
Corps, took sleepers or went to prison. It was the domain of the
Psi Cops to enforce these rules. And all members of Byron's
group, regardless of whether they were born on Earth, Mars, or
Proxima 3 were "human" and subject to these rules.
4. Sheridan appointed his long-since ex-wife, Lockley, as
captain of the station. She didn't want them there and turned
down Byron's request, since it was meaningless in her eyes. She
was still in Earth Force and still accountable to EarthGov. That
meant that even had she agreed to let Byron and his group stay,
she was still required to notify EarthGov of their presence.
Since The ISA had stated that it wouldn't mess with how each
member governed its own and Babylon 5 was neutral ground, the
door was open for the Psi Cops to come swooping in. She knew
that would be the inevitable result if she said yes, didn't want
the mess and turned Byron down.
5. Sheridan overruled her decision but neglected to connect all
of the previous dots - hence he neglected to grant them
sanctuary from prosecution by EarthGov or Psi Corps. He could
have easily done that as President and been able to justify it
as providing temporary refugee status to a persecuted minority
group. He didn't - oops!
6. I think that Bester would have tried to get Byron regardless
of any legalities (He'd gotten past minutia like "the rules"
long ago). He played it by the book because he didn't want to
attract any undue attention from outside the Psi Corps and it
didn't look like Byron had any room to maneuver.
Now all of the above only applies on Babylon 5. Had Byron's
group been allowed to leave the station and go into say, Minbari
space, the Minbari Federation could protect them and that would
be considered out of Psi Corps jurisdiction. But even under such
a circumstance, covertly the Psi Corps could have approved
sending a special team to nab Byron. It would have been suicidal
and if it got uncovered, there would be hell to pay but as was
shown in "The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father," Psi Corp
could be really funny when they were going after one of their
own, and Byron had been a Psi Cop. Bester was VERY determined to
get him.
I hope that this covers all of the bases on this question.
__!_!__
Gizmo
Andrew M Swallow
>From: jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5)
>Date: 22/03/00 04:34 GMT Standard Time
>Message-id: <20000321233223...@ng-fj1.aol.com>
>
>>If this is the case Earth would be England, Mars would be Scotland and the
>>Earth Alliance would be the European Union (with the Moon possibly
>>representing Wales ;)).
>>
>
>You even try to drag bagpipes into this and I'm coming over there with a
>stick.
>
>>Does this mean that Mars will still be protected by Earth Force (and if so,
>>will they have to contribute troops as member nations have to when Europe
>>goes to war)? Also, if Mars chooses to, could it opt out of the Earth
>>Alliance at some time in the future?
>>
>
>Yes and yes, though the latter only with great difficulty and risk.
>
>
I suspect that a better example is the Irish Republic. The Royal Navy is
still defending them.
The Irish were neutral during World War 2. Producing the description of
Dublin as the only city in europe that still had its lights on.
To be fair the Irish did supply the British Army with a large number of
volunteers (and continue to do so).
So in the case of Babylon 5, EarthForce will have to defend Mars as long as
Mars and Earth share the same sun. Beta 9, for instance, could go totally
independent but not Mars (and Scotland) do not have that option.
Andrew Swallow (English)
Keith Wood
Mark Maher wrote:
> 6. I think that Bester would have tried to get Byron regardless
> of any legalities (He'd gotten past minutia like "the rules"
> long ago). He played it by the book because he didn't want to
> attract any undue attention from outside the Psi Corps and it
> didn't look like Byron had any room to maneuver.
I disagree. I think that Bester, above all else, played it by the book
because he believed that the book was right. If there is anyone who
truly believed that the Corps was mother and father, it was him. The
Corps ran by the book, and Bester knew the book so well that he knew how
to slalom around the parts which would have prevented him from doing
what he felt was right.
If you look carefully, you will see that what Bester did was generally
not in his own personal best interest -- he was working for the whole of
the psi population. I found the last part of the final book about him
very tragic.
But then, I have never been well-understood, either. ;)
Mark Maher
>
>
>
>I disagree. I think that Bester, above all else, played it by
the book
>because he believed that the book was right. If there is
anyone who
>truly believed that the Corps was mother and father, it was
him. The
>Corps ran by the book, and Bester knew the book so well that he
knew how
>to slalom around the parts which would have prevented him from
doing
>what he felt was right.
>
>If you look carefully, you will see that what Bester did was
generally
>not in his own personal best interest -- he was working for the
whole of
>the psi population. I found the last part of the final book
about him
>very tragic.
>
>But then, I have never been well-understood, either. ;)
>
Agreed that the third book (AFTER the Telepath Crisis) portrayed
him as tragic, but the second book (almost all of which occurred
before the Babylon 5 story) shows him repeatedly breaking the
rule book whenever it was:
A. more expedient
B. there was little or no chance he'd get caught
C. he perceived it to be necessary to protect himself
I agree with you that he was the most ardent defender of the
concept, "The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father." But make no
mistake - his instincts for self-preservation and retribution
(at least while Psi Corps itself was intact) were unrivalled. He
didn't kill off the director of Psi Corps just because he didn't
like his management style - the guy posed a threat to Bester and
Al decided to take him out.
By coming out of hiding when he openly presented his request to
CAPT Lockley, Byron announced to the entire Psi Corps that he,
Bester's protege and Psi Cop, had turned against the Corps, gone
rogue and managed to evade capture for four years. Even if
Bester himself wasn't enraged enough to go after him, the
leadership of the Corps (which by the fifth season of Babylon 5
was pretty much aligned with Bester) would not tolerate such an
open act of defiance. They would have found a way to end it.
Attest Bester's statement just prior to the big confrontation -
"We're NOT leaving here without Byron!"
__!_!__
Gizmo
Susan Phillips
My question was a general one, really. In case anyone here knows. <g>
Iain Reid
"Andrew M Swallow" <andrewm...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20000323170342...@ng-fm1.news.cs.com...
<snip
>
> So in the case of Babylon 5, EarthForce will have to defend Mars as long
as
> Mars and Earth share the same sun. Beta 9, for instance, could go totally
> independent but not Mars (and Scotland) do not have that option.
>
> Andrew Swallow (English)
I don't understand what you are saying here...Scotland could go totally
independant. In fact, under the terms in the 1770 Treaty of the Union, if
the majority of the Scottish people ever express the desire to become an
independant state then the Union between Scotland and England must be
dissolved.
England would not have to defend Scotland, nor would Scotland have to supply
people for the English Army. After all, part of being a nation state is the
capactiy to be able to defend your own borders - ie, to have your own armed
forces. This would especially true since and independant Scotland would,
more than likley, opt to joint the European Union - and if it was going to
supply troops to anywhere, it would be to aid any EU or UN action...
Iain Reid
Andrew M Swallow
>independant. In fact, under the terms in the 1770 Treaty of the Union, if
>the majority of the Scottish people ever express the desire to become an
>independant state then the Union between Scotland and England must be
>dissolved.
>
>England would not have to defend Scotland, nor would Scotland have to supply
>people for the English Army. After all, part of being a nation state is the
>capactiy to be able to defend your own borders - ie, to have your own armed
>forces. This would especially true since and independant Scotland would,
>more than likley, opt to joint the European Union - and if it was going to
>supply troops to anywhere, it would be to aid any EU or UN action...
>
>Iain Reid
>
An independence law could make a man the official boss guy of Scotland, without
anyone having to ask the English. Unfortunately the geographic fact that
Scotland is connected to England means that if someone (other than the English)
invades Scotland then England is in danger. This also works the other way. If
an invader pops out of the Channel Tunnel then Scotland is in danger.
England and Scotland would be in the situation that Mr and ex-Mrs Rose were in
the film 'War of the Roses'. The divorce made them officially independent but
since they were both in the same building (island), they still interacted.
Scotland could always divorce Australia if it wants to be fully independent of
someone.
Andrew Swallow
George Missonis
> There are actually several factors that contributed to Bester
> and the Psi Cops being able to go after Byron's bunch:
((Narn Snip Squad: *SNIP!* *SNIP!* *SNIP!* *SNIP!* *SNIP!*))
> I hope that this covers all of the bases on this question.
>
> __!_!__
> Gizmo
Just happened to skim through my copy of the episode this week.
Despite the explanations, the handling of the telepaths had to be one of
Sheridan's poorest moments (perhaps because he was then a politician,
not a military leader, eh?). Delenn had the most sensible responses to
Byron's request, but Sheridan could only muster: "Maybe she's
right..." Byron's request was rejected because it was "inconvenient".
Lockley should be aware of how everyone on B5 felt about Bester and that
Sheridan had offered the telepaths "sanctuary", but she invited Bester
in without discussing it with Sheridan. The dialog would rival Delenn's
discussion with Sheridan of her role in the Earth-Minbari war: "...By
the way, I've invited Bester to bring the PsiCorps to B5..."
__And__ Since Lyta presumably had all the powers she displayed later,
she could have "arranged" for an escape. My alternate history would
have had her and the telepaths go to Vorlon space where they could have
thumbed their noses at everyone and revealed more about the Vorlons.
But the plot marched on to its destination...
George
George Missonis
> So it is sort of analagous to what would happen if my own country of
> Scotland when ( not if ;o) ) it becomes independant from the UK. It is
> likely that when this happens, Scotland would become a sovreign state but it
> would choose to remain in the European Union (thus the Scottish National
> Party's slogan of "An Independant Scotland in Europe").
>
> Iain Reid
Sounds like having the American Colonies win their independence from the UK, but
become part of the Commonwealth...
George
George Missonis
> In article <20000321233223...@ng-fj1.aol.com>,
> jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
>
> > You even try to drag bagpipes into this and I'm coming over there with a
> > stick.
> >
>
>
> I happen to like the sound of Bagpipes :-)
> Anyone for the song "The Battle of Glen Eurann"
>
Aye, Laddie, and perhaps it was the sound of bagpipes that drove PsiCorps from
Mars...
George
Jms at B5
>from
>Mars...
Also all the cats...also anything born with ears...
jms
Mark Maher
>Mark Maher wrote:
>
>Just happened to skim through my copy of the episode this week.
>
>Despite the explanations, the handling of the telepaths had to
be one of
>Sheridan's poorest moments (perhaps because he was then a
politician,
>not a military leader, eh?). Delenn had the most sensible
responses to
>Byron's request, but Sheridan could only muster: "Maybe she's
>right..." Byron's request was rejected because it was
"inconvenient".
Byron's "demand" for a world of their own was rejected out of
hand by John and it I agree with you that it was his Third
Stupid Decision regarding the telepaths. Clearly Delenn felt
that they had some merit and she could have secured them a
homeworld in Minbari space if John had asked. The request that I
was referring to was Byron's initial request to gather his flock
on Babylon 5 in the first place. That was made in the season
five opener to CAPT Lockley.
John's First Stupid Decision regarding the telepaths was
granting them permission to stay WITHOUT granting them immunity
from prosecution by EarthGov. Had he done so at the outset, and
told Luchenko his reasons for it, the rest MIGHT have been
avoided. A better play still would have been not to reverse
Lockley's "no" decision in the first place.
>Lockley should be aware of how everyone on B5 felt about Bester
and that
>Sheridan had offered the telepaths "sanctuary", but she invited
Bester
>in without discussing it with Sheridan. The dialog would rival
Delenn's
>discussion with Sheridan of her role in the Earth-Minbari war:
"...By
>the way, I've invited Bester to bring the PsiCorps to B5..."
I take it that you missed the episode where the Psi Cops first
came aboard and Lockley went to Sheridan and explained to him in
great detail exactly why the Psi Cops were there.
>__And__ Since Lyta presumably had all the powers she displayed
later,
>she could have "arranged" for an escape. My alternate history
would
>have had her and the telepaths go to Vorlon space where they
could have
>thumbed their noses at everyone and revealed more about the
Vorlons.
There are number of things about the Telepath thread that
bothered me too. One of the things that didn't bother me was how
they showed Lyta start to push herself to explore just how far
she could go. When this incident happened, she did try to
protect them by jamming the hounds and Bester. It took an
enormous tool on her. She needeed time and practice to get a
handle on those enhancements of hers.
>But the plot marched on to its destination...
Yeah it did and there are a number of different ways that I,
too, would have preferred it to go but it wasn't up to you or
me, it was up to jms.
__!_!__
Gizmo
AndroidCat XENU
news:20000321233223...@ng-fj1.aol.com...
> >If this is the case Earth would be England, Mars would be Scotland and
the
> >Earth Alliance would be the European Union (with the Moon possibly
> >representing Wales ;)).
> >
>
stick.
Try the group Azumi Taiko. Japanese druming and bagpipes. Trust me!
> >Does this mean that Mars will still be protected by Earth Force (and if
so,
> >will they have to contribute troops as member nations have to when Europe
> >goes to war)? Also, if Mars chooses to, could it opt out of the Earth
> >Alliance at some time in the future?
> >
>
> Yes and yes, though the latter only with great difficulty and risk.
Since Mars is the oldest Earth colony (assuming Luna doesn't have a say),
they'll be the first to be in a position to be part of Earth Alliance while
not being directly under EarthGov. Or do they just get a seat at the table
equivilent to the Russian Consortium?
Of course, the Drakh plague will make a whole lot of things pretty moot, I
guess? And afterwards, Earth Alliance is going to have to deal with a bunch
of colonies who have been fending for themselves for a few years. (Knowing
how you are with arcs, I guess I'll always wonder if the plague didn't get
wrapped up in the second year, and move on to the *real* problem... :^)
And this will lead to an Earth Alliance so stretched for resources that
*someone* will have to turn out the lights on B5 (and then turn them on,
once, big time) at +20?
Uhh, stretched for resources... So how carefully did they hunt down and
relocate all the lurkers before blowing up the station...? Erp!
Ron of that ilk.
Dwight Williams
>
> >Aye, Laddie, and perhaps it was the sound of bagpipes that drove PsiCorps
> >from
> >Mars...
>
> Also all the cats...also anything born with ears...
Anything born with ears outside of Scotland and Canada, anyway!
Advice to JMS: stay well clear of our curling clubs when you next visit
us.
> (jms...@aol.com)
> B5 Official Fan Club at:
> http://www.thestation.com
> (all message content (c) 2000 by
> synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
> to reprint specifically denied to
> SFX Magazine)
--
Charles French
What do you say we pool together and hire a group (band? unit?) of bagpipe
players to show up on JMS's lawn for his next bday? Wake him to an ear
splitting version of the B5 Theme... <EG>
Charles
Who is running like hell from JMS
carl Dershem
> >Aye, Laddie, and perhaps it was the sound of bagpipes that drove PsiCorps
> >from
> >Mars...
>
> Also all the cats...also anything born with ears...
The sound of things with ears drove the Psi Corps from Mars?
AndroidCat XENU
news:8uiD4.8437$G5.5...@typhoon.we.rr.com...
The Narn Bagpipe Squad? Playing the "Gay G'Orden"?
In Sinclair's name, talk about "no hiding place"! That's got to rank with
mass-drivers! ;^)
--
Ron of that ilk.
"There was this Scot on the edge of death, and as his last request, he asked
for a piper. The results were miraculous. Not only was the Scot restored
to health, but three perfectly well Englishmen died."
"A thousand years ago, the Irish gave the bagpipes to the Scots. The Scots
still haven't got the joke."
Jeffrey MacHott
Ragu, under "Prego wuz here" supe...@mediaone.net jotted down...
>
>Hey Everyone,
>
>What do you say we pool together and hire a group (band? unit?) of bagpipe
>players to show up on JMS's lawn for his next bday? Wake him to an ear
>splitting version of the B5 Theme... <EG>
Ahem... Shall I do the honors?
tromp tromp tromp Tromp Tromp Tromp TROMP TROMP TROMP TROMP
*doorbell rings*
"Who is... Oh Great Maker! It's... THE NARN BAGPIPE SQUAD!!
UUUAAAAGGHHH!!!!!!"
*five bagpipes playing horrendously*
>
>Charles
>Who is running like hell from JMS
>
>
--
--Ragu-Leader
"When I was kidnapped my parents snapped into action.
They rented out my room." --Woody Allen
-----------------------------------------
Steve Brinich
> __And__ Since Lyta presumably had all the powers she displayed later,
> she could have "arranged" for an escape.
There was a confrontation between Lyta and Bester's squad (I forget
which episode), which basically established that Lyta could slap Bester
around but could not be confident of taking on an entire bloodhound
unit -- at least, not with the limited skill he had at the time.
--
Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> If the government wants us
http://www.Radix.Net/~steveb to respect the law
89B992BBE67F7B2F64FDF2EA14374C3E it should set a better example
Iain Reid
"Dwight Williams" <ad...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote in message
news:38DE18C5...@freenet.carleton.ca...
> Jms at B5 wrote:
> >
> > >Aye, Laddie, and perhaps it was the sound of bagpipes that drove
PsiCorps
> > >from
> > >Mars...
> >
> > Also all the cats...also anything born with ears...
>
Actually, most people in Scotland hate bagpipes, too. Mind you, they don't
hate them as much as they hate all those Canadians and Americans who claim
to be Scottish because their Great-Great-Great-Grandmother once visited Skye
and then proceed to prance about in Kilts, wave swords about, play the
bagpipes and generally play into and propogate every false stereotype of the
Scottish people going.
Actually, it's not so much hate we feel for such people as pity. And
wonderment at the fact that nobody has had them commited yet...
Iain Reid
Keith Wood
That director posed a threat to the TELEPATHS.
Bester's loyalty is to the telepaths. He would sacrifice himself if
that is what he found necessary (and in fact he DOES do this to some
extent at his trial). He goes to great lengths to protect and preserve
himself primarily because he sees himself as "the fourth One,"
counterpart to Sinclair, Delenn and Sheridan. He can only protect his
own people if he is there for them.
> By coming out of hiding when he openly presented his request to
> CAPT Lockley, Byron announced to the entire Psi Corps that he,
> Bester's protege and Psi Cop, had turned against the Corps, gone
> rogue and managed to evade capture for four years. Even if
> Bester himself wasn't enraged enough to go after him, the
> leadership of the Corps (which by the fifth season of Babylon 5
> was pretty much aligned with Bester) would not tolerate such an
> open act of defiance. They would have found a way to end it.
> Attest Bester's statement just prior to the big confrontation -
> "We're NOT leaving here without Byron!"
Yet, even at the last, Bester is trying to bring Byron back into the
fold. Byron is a good counterpart to Bester, and in fact would have
been the perfect successor. Bester's predecessors were the first
telepaths, the early Corps. Bester was the one who brought true
strength to the Corps. Byron could have used that strength to bring
HEART to the Corps, and as Bester's successor would have been able to
bring about his goals, it just would have taken longer.
The tragedy is that only Byron -- or someone like him -- would have been
able to avert the coming war of genocide between the telepaths and the
normals.
Keith Wood
Actually, bagpipes are the LEAST obnoxious thing that a Scot can do with
a sheep's stomach!
Keith Wood
The advantage of playing bagpipes is that even if you are doing it
wrong, nobody can tell!
I suppose that you could drive the telepaths nuts just by THINKING about
bagpipes, right?
Jms at B5 wrote:
>
> >Aye, Laddie, and perhaps it was the sound of bagpipes that drove PsiCorps
> >from
> >Mars...
>
> Also all the cats...also anything born with ears...
>
> jms
Mark Maher
Keith Wood wrote in message <38E0E96E...@bctv.com>...
>
>That director posed a threat to the TELEPATHS.
>
>Bester's loyalty is to the telepaths. He would sacrifice
himself if
>that is what he found necessary (and in fact he DOES do this to
some
>extent at his trial). He goes to great lengths to protect and
preserve
>himself primarily because he sees himself as "the fourth One,"
>counterpart to Sinclair, Delenn and Sheridan. He can only
protect his
>own people if he is there for them.
>
Yes, I'm sure that's how he saw himself. That all of his Cadre
Prime brethren (whom he never really considered "brethren" in
the first place) had been past over for a bunch of Laters that
worked for that particular Director certainly had it place in
motivating Bester's actions in taking him out. I'm sure Adolf
Hitler considered himself a savior of European culture by trying
to exterminate its Jewish population. It dosn't change the fact
that he he was one of the top three mass murderers in the last
century.
>
>Yet, even at the last, Bester is trying to bring Byron back
into the
>fold. Byron is a good counterpart to Bester, and in fact would
have
>been the perfect successor. Bester's predecessors were the
first
>telepaths, the early Corps. Bester was the one who brought
true
>strength to the Corps. Byron could have used that strength to
bring
>HEART to the Corps, and as Bester's successor would have been
able to
>bring about his goals, it just would have taken longer.
>
>The tragedy is that only Byron -- or someone like him -- would
have been
>able to avert the coming war of genocide between the telepaths
and the
>normals.
>
The war was initially between Psi Corps and the telepath
resistance - rogues who were seeking nothing more but the right
to live free from the Corps. I'm sure lots and lots of normals
got in the way and that Psi Corps took them on when the Normal
Earth Force tried to intervene in the fight...at least that's
the essence that I got from "The Path of Sorrows." But then all
of what we know of the Telepath Crisis comes from "Crusade" and
what else was said during "Final Reckoning: The Fate Of Bester."
Anything else would be speculation.
And there had always been telepaths who resisted the control of
the government, even before the government began to regulate
them. Byron just served as the latest poster boy for their
cause. Like Fiona and Matthew, he meant more to the resistance
than just his own existence. His self-martyrdom served to light
a fire under Lyta's butt and she proved to be the last person in
the galaxy that Psi Corp needed to be fired up against them.
__!_!__
Gizmo
Iain Reid
"Keith Wood" <k...@bctv.com> wrote in message
news:38E0EA4A...@bctv.com...
>
>
> Iain Reid wrote:
> >
> > "Dwight Williams" <ad...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote in message
> > news:38DE18C5...@freenet.carleton.ca...
> > > >
> > > > >Aye, Laddie, and perhaps it was the sound of bagpipes that drove
> > PsiCorps
> > > > >from
> > > > >Mars...
> > > >
> > > > Also all the cats...also anything born with ears...
> > >
> >
> > Actually, most people in Scotland hate bagpipes, too. Mind you, they
don't
> > hate them as much as they hate all those Canadians and Americans who
claim
> > to be Scottish because their Great-Great-Great-Grandmother once visited
Skye
> > and then proceed to prance about in Kilts, wave swords about, play the
> > bagpipes and generally play into and propogate every false stereotype of
the
> > Scottish people going.
> >
> > Actually, it's not so much hate we feel for such people as pity. And
> > wonderment at the fact that nobody has had them commited yet...
> >
> > Iain Reid
>
> Actually, bagpipes are the LEAST obnoxious thing that a Scot can do with
> a sheep's stomach!
>
Haggis is actually quite tasty. And it comes in little plastic pouches now
instead of sheeps stomach if you want :)
Iain Reid
Shaz
"Iain Reid" <theva...@callnet0800.com> wrote in message
news:8br6r3$5d9a5$1...@fu-berlin.de...
> > a sheep's stomach!
> >
>
> Haggis is actually quite tasty. And it comes in little plastic pouches
now
> instead of sheeps stomach if you want :)
>
> Iain Reid
Agreed. I LOVE Haggis. If you like spicy mince meat, you'll love it. And
talk about filling. One of those can last two meals for two people, added to
mashed potatoes and the vegetables of your choice). Nice, cheap and tasty.
HIGHLY recommended.
Shaz <who dreaded the idea until she tasted it, then became a convert!>
Iain Reid
"Shaz" <hyp...@Dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:8btpm1$i98$1...@lure.pipex.net...
What do you mean "vegetables of your choice"? Neeps and tatties! It's the
only way :)
Iain Reid
John W. Kennedy
>
> In article <38D6DECF...@bellatlantic.net>,
> John W. Kennedy <jwke...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> >But that's not how law works. Every British law and legal precedent
> >that applied in the USA on the morning of July 2, 1776 still applies in
> >the USA to this day, unless an express action has been taken to change
> >it.
>
> One of the changes is that the British police don't enforce US laws.
Seeing that there _were_ no police in 1776, that doesn't mean much one
way or the other. I believe some National Guard units (and until this
century, the line between the National Guard and the State Police -- or
Patrol, or Rangers, or whatever -- was distinctly blurry) may have a
history going back to colonial days.
--
-John W. Kennedy
-rri...@ibm.net
Compact is becoming contract
Man only earns and pays. -- Charles Williams
John W. Kennedy
>
> "Keith Wood" <k...@bctv.com> wrote in message
> news:38E0EA4A...@bctv.com...
> >
> >
> > >
> > > "Dwight Williams" <ad...@freenet.carleton.ca> wrote in message
> > > news:38DE18C5...@freenet.carleton.ca...
> > > > Jms at B5 wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >Aye, Laddie, and perhaps it was the sound of bagpipes that drove
> > > PsiCorps
> > > > > >from
> > > > > >Mars...
> > > > >
> > > > > Also all the cats...also anything born with ears...
> > > >
> > > > Anything born with ears outside of Scotland and Canada, anyway!
> > >
> > > Actually, most people in Scotland hate bagpipes, too. Mind you, they
> don't
> > > hate them as much as they hate all those Canadians and Americans who
> claim
> > > to be Scottish because their Great-Great-Great-Grandmother once visited
> Skye
> > > and then proceed to prance about in Kilts, wave swords about, play the
> > > bagpipes and generally play into and propogate every false stereotype of
> the
> > > Scottish people going.
> > >
> > > Actually, it's not so much hate we feel for such people as pity. And
> > > wonderment at the fact that nobody has had them commited yet...
> > >
> > > Iain Reid
> >
> > a sheep's stomach!
> >
>
> Haggis is actually quite tasty. And it comes in little plastic pouches now
> instead of sheeps stomach if you want :)
It's the only legal way you can get it in the USA, I believe.
(For what it's worth, the list of ingredients in Haggis is pretty
off-putting, but it basically tastes like a cross between unsauced
meatloaf and liverwurst. My wife's rather fond of it, and she's
Jewish!)
Wesley Struebing
<jwke...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>Iain Reid wrote:
>>
>> "Keith Wood" <k...@bctv.com> wrote in message
>> news:38E0EA4A...@bctv.com...
>
>>
>> Haggis is actually quite tasty. And it comes in little plastic pouches now
>> instead of sheeps stomach if you want :)
>
>It's the only legal way you can get it in the USA, I believe.
>
>(For what it's worth, the list of ingredients in Haggis is pretty
>off-putting, but it basically tastes like a cross between unsauced
>meatloaf and liverwurst. My wife's rather fond of it, and she's
>Jewish!)
Hmm, I've seen it canned...(I won't claim to know how it's packaged IN
the can, but...
(tastes very good with a shot of scotch to chase it, too)
Gharlane of Eddore
In <38D6DECF...@bellatlantic.net>,
> that applied in the USA on the morning of July 2, 1776 still applies in
> the USA to this day, unless an express action has been taken to change
> it.
>
Not precisely; remember, that revolution was primarily fought over
the Crown's insistence on a FIVE PERCENT INCOME TAX, and over the
Crown's insistence that the colonists all turn in their firearms,
to protect the children, or the Hessians, or maybe the Brit tax
collectors....
"Michael J. Hennebry" wrote:
>
> One of the changes is that the British police don't enforce US laws.
>
They don't need to. Our legislators are giving themselves hernias
trying to out-do the Brits in the passage and enforcement of laws
specifically designed to turn our nation into a depressed Socialist
Workers' Paradise just like the U.K. *shudder* ( seems to be
working, too. )
In <38E51E9A...@bellatlantic.net> jwke...@bellatlantic.net writes:
>
> Seeing that there _were_ no police in 1776, that doesn't mean much one
> way or the other. I believe some National Guard units (and until this
> century, the line between the National Guard and the State Police -- or
> Patrol, or Rangers, or whatever -- was distinctly blurry) may have a
> history going back to colonial days.
>
Nope. Not at all. The so-called "National Guard" is a relatively
recent development. Most of the Colonies had a few guys lying
around the place whose task it was to keep order, but there were
danged few of them. Some towns dressed their night watchmen in
actual uniforms, and called them names like "proctor" or "guardian,"
but these were the exception rather than the rule.
At the time of the creation of the U.S. Constitution, it was expected
that volunteer *MILITIA* would provide the capacity for any sort of
group combat necessary to protect the local society, and if you re-read
the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, you'll find a rather large
amount of proscription concerning the maintenance of a "standing army."
The Founding Fathers were well aware of how a standing army sucks up
resources and product, and necessitates un-necessary taxes, and they did
their best to provide an armed citizenry capable of disputing any attempts
by runaway government to use military organizations to "keep order."
( Remember the bumper sticker: "Is YOUR religion BATF-Approved?" )
Considering the *current* state of U.S. taxation and arms control, I'd
suspect that within a few decades we'll see some sort of radical
re-arrangement of the current status quo, possibly by force of arms.
I think fractionating the U.S. into forty or fifty sovereign
organizations might be a really good way to go; things will be rough
for a while, but when you've got honest competition in the marketplace,
the consumer usually wins. ( I'll be looking to emigrate to Vermont,
New Mexico, or perhaps Idaho or Texas, if I'm still alive and any of
them will let me enter on a green card. )
( And government is a product; never forget that. The trick is to buy
as *little* of it as you can get by with, no more than you really need. )
==================================================================
|| ||
|| " To be governed is to be at every operation, at every ||
|| transaction, noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, ||
|| measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, ||
|| admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, ||
|| punished." ||
|| --Pierre Proudhon, 1809-1865 ||
|| ||
==================================================================
WWS
Gharlane of Eddore wrote:
>
> In <38D6DECF...@bellatlantic.net>,
> John W. Kennedy <jwke...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>
> In <38E51E9A...@bellatlantic.net> jwke...@bellatlantic.net writes:
> >
> > Seeing that there _were_ no police in 1776, that doesn't mean much one
> > way or the other. I believe some National Guard units (and until this
> > century, the line between the National Guard and the State Police -- or
> > Patrol, or Rangers, or whatever -- was distinctly blurry) may have a
> > history going back to colonial days.
> >
>
> Nope. Not at all. The so-called "National Guard" is a relatively
> recent development. Most of the Colonies had a few guys lying
> around the place whose task it was to keep order, but there were
> danged few of them. Some towns dressed their night watchmen in
> actual uniforms, and called them names like "proctor" or "guardian,"
> but these were the exception rather than the rule.
This is a half truth, at best. Although calling local military units
a "national guard" is relatively new, before the 20th century this
was all that the regular military consisted of. Units were mustered
and organized by state and by city, in some cases. The federal level
of the military was a very thin veneer over the state organizations,
and consisted mainly of West Point officers, command staff, naval
personnel, and military engineers. (most from West Point also)
Since the States didn't see fit to fund these units during peacetime,
the total armed services in peacetime generally consisted of no more
than a few thousand men for the entire country. (This was still
true in the 1930's)
During the Civil War, a few "USA" type brigades began to be used,
mainly from the remnants of units that had been shot up so badly
that their original organizations were no longer functional, and
they needed some kind of structure. Pershing, due to his experience
in the SA war, used his position in WW1 to push hard for his
"Rainbow Division", which was one of the earliest units of great
size and significance to have no state affiliation whatsoever.
Not coincidentally, Pershing was the one of the first commanders
to actively seek and promote the inclusion of blacks into the
armed forces, at a time when the states (both northern and
southern) thought it was inconceivable that a black man could
fight and perform as well as a white. The Rainbow Division
was created more than anything else so that the Army would be
free of this level of political interference. It worked so
well (from a command POV) that in the years between WW1 and WW2
nearly all state affiliations were dropped from military unit
designations, and their composition and recruiting was handled
at a Federal level only. Since there were still quite a few people
around attached to the State Units (politicians out for votes and
parades, mainly) the State unit designations and few remaining
local personnel were given the new designation of "National Guard"
in the years leading up to WW2, and given a subsidiary status
that kept them available in case of extreme emergency, but also
kept them out of the Military's hair and business, for the most
part. The compromise worked well, the locals really wanted
their units to stick around home base, and the Army had always
resented the way that promotions and commissions had been given
to local politicians in order to keep the locals happy and the
units well funded.
And that pretty much is the system that's been in place ever
since.
>
> At the time of the creation of the U.S. Constitution, it was expected
> that volunteer *MILITIA* would provide the capacity for any sort of
> group combat necessary to protect the local society, and if you re-read
> the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, you'll find a rather large
> amount of proscription concerning the maintenance of a "standing army."
> The Founding Fathers were well aware of how a standing army sucks up
> resources and product, and necessitates un-necessary taxes, and they did
> their best to provide an armed citizenry capable of disputing any attempts
> by runaway government to use military organizations to "keep order."
> ( Remember the bumper sticker: "Is YOUR religion BATF-Approved?" )
There was also the expectation (which was true for 130 years, at least)
that by and large military expenditures and units would be taken care
of by the Several States, and this was not something that it was
necessary for the Federal Government to be involved in. Ever wonder
why the Civil War got kicked off so easily? As troubles started
brewing, every state began to stock up it's own military units, and
as soon as there was a "go" all of them were eager to jump into it
with guns blazing. This type of military organization wasn't what
caused that war, but it sure made it a hell of a lot easier than it
should have been.
>
> Considering the *current* state of U.S. taxation and arms control, I'd
> suspect that within a few decades we'll see some sort of radical
> re-arrangement of the current status quo, possibly by force of arms.
> I think fractionating the U.S. into forty or fifty sovereign
> organizations might be a really good way to go; things will be rough
> for a while, but when you've got honest competition in the marketplace,
> the consumer usually wins. ( I'll be looking to emigrate to Vermont,
> New Mexico, or perhaps Idaho or Texas, if I'm still alive and any of
> them will let me enter on a green card. )
You're saying, basically, that the US would function better if it was
organized somewhat like the Balkan states are today. It's fun dinner
party conversation, but nothing more. A simple example, from US
history - most Confederate officers, after the war, attributed their
military defeat to the fact that the Confederacy could never attain
the level of coordination and cooperation between it's units and
armies that the Federal Govm't could. (And the fed's record on this
score was abysmal, which lets you know how bad a problem the CSA had
in this department) The most infamous case was when Lee was falling
back late in the war, and Richmond was about to fall. J. Davis
contacted the Governor of Georgia, who had ample supplies of things
like ammunition, food, and shoes on hand in storage. Davis told
him that Lee desperately needed all of these immediately, or else
Richmond would fall. Georgia's Governor replied that he sympathized,
but he thought they would be better used in his own state, and so
he must politely decline the request. The CSA had no authority to
commandeer supplies, so none were sent to Lee. His army was forced
to retreat, Richmond fell, and the rest is history.
That's a system you'd like to go back to?
>
> ( And government is a product; never forget that. The trick is to buy
> as *little* of it as you can get by with, no more than you really need. )
Now there's a sentiment I endorse whole heartedly. The problem is,
it's just like insurance; you have to decide how much you're going
to need long before you actually know what that's going to be. If
you end up needing it badly and it's not there, you're screwed.
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
For lo; on that fateful day when black R'lyeh finally rises and Great
Cthulhu ravages his way across the width and the breath the land, the
final blood-red rays of the setting sun will reveal a single human
being still alive amidst the carnage and the flaming chaos: Dan Tropea.
And he will still be posting to rec.arts.sf.tv. - Geoduck
Keith Wood
WWS wrote:
>
> Gharlane of Eddore wrote:
That's the system that the world runs on -- the political units are just
generally larger.
Consider Switzerland and Liechtenstein. Both countries together are
smaller than some states, yet each is a separate nation, tied by
treaty. This has worked well, for a very long time.
If the US were to Balkanize, I'm certain that we would see confederation
by groups of states with common borders, such as Utah, Idaho, Arizona,
Wyoming and Montana as one group, the Pacific states as another, and the
District of Columbia, Massachussetts and Maryland could OFFICIALLY join
Cuba.
> > ( And government is a product; never forget that. The trick is to buy
> > as *little* of it as you can get by with, no more than you really need. )
>
> Now there's a sentiment I endorse whole heartedly. The problem is,
> it's just like insurance; you have to decide how much you're going
> to need long before you actually know what that's going to be. If
> you end up needing it badly and it's not there, you're screwed.
And if there is too much of it when we DON'T need it, we are ALL
screwed.
Tom Holt
The message <38EB7511...@tyler.net>
from WWS <wsch...@tyler.net> contains these words:
> > ( And government is a product; never forget that. The trick is to buy
> > as *little* of it as you can get by with, no more than you really need. )
> Now there's a sentiment I endorse whole heartedly. The problem is,
> it's just like insurance; you have to decide how much you're going
> to need long before you actually know what that's going to be. If
> you end up needing it badly and it's not there, you're screwed.
insurance; both of them are basically glorified protection rackets...
"Thus in the eleventh year of the Heaven-sent Emperor Yung, Tong So
became the first who undertook to insure to those who bargained with
him protection against loss... In time, he added to the nature of his
commerce protection from the peril of fire, of being drawn under the
wheels of passing chariots, and the like. Yet in spite of his
benevolent concern for the misfortunes of others he was not wholly
devoid of enemies, and these did not hesitate to declare that while
Tong So could - and admittedly did - restrain his outrageous band
from despoiling those who sought exemption, he was no demon to grant
immunity from fire and the contingencies of life. To this
narrow-minded taunt the really impartial would reply that if some
among those who sought Tong's aid might occasionally experience fire
or fatal injury, those who stubbornly refused to do so invariably did..."
- Ernest Bramah, 'Kai Lung Unrolls His Mat'
The Reverend Jacob Corbin
> Considering the *current* state of U.S. taxation and arms control, I'd
> suspect that within a few decades we'll see some sort of radical
> re-arrangement of the current status quo, possibly by force of arms.
This is a childish wet-dream at best and pernicious nonsense at worst; I find
it amusing that in these latter days the crypto-anarchists of the right are
parroting the tired old cliches of The Glorious Inevitable Revolution first
coined by their equally tedious counterparts on the left.
Anyone who thinks their home supply of firearms is an effective deterrent to
totalitarianism is operating in an eighteenth-century mode of thinking; one
simple and effective way for a government to deal with armed camps of holdouts
would be to introduce an airborne virus into the place and offer the
appropriate treatment to any folks willing to break ranks and surrender. This
is not science fiction or even particularly creative, and the government's had
millions of bright folks to work on this and other problems during all the
years the paranoid have been teaching their kids how to clean guns in the dark.
Mark Maher
<38EBC1E3...@afriendlysbooks.com>...
>
>This is a childish wet-dream at best and pernicious nonsense at
worst; I find
>it amusing that in these latter days the crypto-anarchists of
the right are
>parroting the tired old cliches of The Glorious Inevitable
Revolution first
>coined by their equally tedious counterparts on the left.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what everybody in Sarajevo thought
in 1990 when the ultra-nationalists started harping their
opinions. And we all saw where that went.
>Anyone who thinks their home supply of firearms is an effective
>deterrent to
>totalitarianism is operating in an eighteenth-century mode of
>thinking;
It certainly didn't deter the BATF from trying to storm the
Branch Davidians. Of course, if the federal government didn't
try to enforce restrictions in direct violation of the second
amendment, there wouldn't be a BATF in the first place.
>one
>simple and effective way for a government to deal with armed
>camps of holdouts
>would be to introduce an airborne virus into the place and
offer >the
>appropriate treatment to any folks willing to break ranks and
>surrender. This
>is not science fiction or even particularly creative, and the
>government's had
>millions of bright folks to work on this and other problems
during >all the
>years the paranoid have been teaching their kids how to clean
>guns in the dark.
Really? Since when did this government get as sloppy and openly
sadistic as Saddam Hussein? I hate to point out the obvious but
there is this bunch of folks called The Press that would LOVE to
publicize the army using bio-warfare on its own citizens. Not to
mention the very real hazard of inadvertent contamination of
unintended targets. That's why poison gas was outlawed by the
Geneva Convention. Not because it wasn't effective - because it
didn't discriminate between friend or foe, civilian or
combatant. It couldn't be controlled in even mild winds.
Until they put a GPS navigation kit in DNA, neither can the
dispersion of airborne viruses.
__!_!__
Gizmo
Steve Brinich
> one simple and effective way for a government to deal with
> armed camps of holdouts would be to introduce an airborne virus
> into the place and offer the appropriate treatment to any folks
> willing to break ranks and surrender.
That flushing sound you hear is your credibility in accusing anyone
*else* of harboring "a childish wet-dream" going down the crapper.
Why not just say that they'd drop an H-bomb on that place? (Not
because that would destroy what the government is attempting to control
-- anyone who recognizes "mutation" as a term of scientific art rather
than a buzzword used on "Creature Feature" knows this to be equally
true of your notion.)
The Reverend Jacob Corbin
Steve Brinich wrote:
> That flushing sound you hear is your credibility in accusing anyone
> *else* of harboring "a childish wet-dream" going down the crapper.
Hey, I never said I didn't harbor any childish wet dreams. It's just that,
barring a particularly stressful day, mine don't usually involve the
hurling of bullets at people from the barrels of large phallic-substitutes.
Nor do I pretend to any level of credibility. I am, after all, just
another weirdo with a keyboard and too much free time. Pay me no heed,
lest you amuse me further.
>
> Why not just say that they'd drop an H-bomb on that place?
Why not, if we're willing to postulate a Big Evil Government willing to do
anything to suppress an armed populace in revolt?
> (Not
> because that would destroy what the government is attempting to control
> -- anyone who recognizes "mutation" as a term of scientific art rather
> than a buzzword used on "Creature Feature" knows this to be equally
> true of your notion.)
"Mutation" is what happens when the addition of some well-placed hyperbole
livens up an otherwise deadly dull thread.
--
Reverend Jacob
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/shirley/272/
"People that are really weird can get into sensitive positions and have a
tremendous impact on history." -- J. Danforth Quayle
The Reverend Jacob Corbin
Mark Maher wrote:
> The Reverend Jacob Corbin wrote in message
> <38EBC1E3...@afriendlysbooks.com>...
> >
> >This is a childish wet-dream at best and pernicious nonsense at
> worst; I find
> >it amusing that in these latter days the crypto-anarchists of
> the right are
> >parroting the tired old cliches of The Glorious Inevitable
> Revolution first
> >coined by their equally tedious counterparts on the left.
>
> Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what everybody in Sarajevo thought
> in 1990 when the ultra-nationalists started harping their
> opinions. And we all saw where that went.
My point exactly. Balkanizing the Balkans hasn't exactly done much to
stimulate competition via the free market of ideas, has it?
> >Anyone who thinks their home supply of firearms is an effective
> >deterrent to
> >totalitarianism is operating in an eighteenth-century mode of
> >thinking;
>
> It certainly didn't deter the BATF from trying to storm the
> Branch Davidians.
Exactly. Were they deterred? No. Were they stopped? No. Is there
any reason to believe the ownership of a gun will deter a group of
government goons in any situation? No.
> Of course, if the federal government didn't
> try to enforce restrictions in direct violation of the second
> amendment, there wouldn't be a BATF in the first place.
We seem to agree more than you think we do. They *were* trying to
enforce restrictions that violated the Second Amendment. Hence the
correct response to this situation is to remove the regulations. I bet
if Koresh's group had taken the BATF to the Texas courts, they would
have won handily and without loss of life. Keeping guns around didn't
save them.
>
> Really? Since when did this government get as sloppy and openly
> sadistic as Saddam Hussein?
According to many folks, it has been for quite a while. That's kind of
the point I was making: IF the government is that evil, and IF there
were a general armed revolt, would camps of holdouts stand a fighting
chance? Probably not, because the gov. would have license to do
whatever they considered necessary to maintain order. They could worry
about PR after they'd won and all dissenters had been killed or
imprisoned.
> I hate to point out the obvious but
> there is this bunch of folks called The Press that would LOVE to
> publicize the army using bio-warfare on its own citizens.
And in the case of Gharlane's civil war, those pesky fourth estate folks
would probably be the first put against the wall by *both* sides.
> Until they put a GPS navigation kit in DNA, neither can the
> dispersion of airborne viruses.
If we're talking a standoff situation, you could inoculate the
surrounding populace, especially since most of these holdouts would
probably be in places like Idaho and the Appalachians. Hell, you could
just use some really nasty Asian flu and send in the troops when
everybody's busy shitting themselves. (The stuff that laid low half my
family two months ago would do the job nicely.) Then you'd even get a
nice bit of PR for using non-lethal force.
Not that any of this is really germane. I was just using an
off-the-wall example for the hell of it. My real point still stands: in
Gharlane's big apocalyptic conflict, it is doubtful that Big Evil
Government would be such a pushover as he seems to think. Which is why
big apocalyptic conflict is an idea about as relevant to the future as
steel cage wrestling.
Lisa Coulter
silly me?) that we had outlawed the use and experimentation of offensize biological
weapons. Am I wrong?
Lisa Coulter
The Reverend Jacob Corbin wrote:
> Gharlane of Eddore wrote:
>
> > Considering the *current* state of U.S. taxation and arms control, I'd
> > suspect that within a few decades we'll see some sort of radical
> > re-arrangement of the current status quo, possibly by force of arms.
>
> This is a childish wet-dream at best and pernicious nonsense at worst; I find
> it amusing that in these latter days the crypto-anarchists of the right are
> parroting the tired old cliches of The Glorious Inevitable Revolution first
> coined by their equally tedious counterparts on the left.
>
> Anyone who thinks their home supply of firearms is an effective deterrent to
> totalitarianism is operating in an eighteenth-century mode of thinking; one
> simple and effective way for a government to deal with armed camps of holdouts
> would be to introduce an airborne virus into the place and offer the
> appropriate treatment to any folks willing to break ranks and surrender. This
Tom Holt
The message <38EC4D0D...@afriendlysbooks.com>
from The Reverend Jacob Corbin <webm...@afriendlysbooks.com>
contains these words:
> Nor do I pretend to any level of credibility.
That's all right, then.
Mark Maher
Lisa Coulter wrote in message <38ECC12B...@stetson.edu>...
>No comment on whether or not we will "balkanize" but I did
think (and believe,
>silly me?) that we had outlawed the use and experimentation of
offensize biological
>weapons. Am I wrong?
>
>Lisa Coulter
>
Yes, we have...for now. The truth is we don't need to develop
any new pathogens; the ones that we already have will more than
suffice. Between AIDS, Ebola and resistant strains of Small Pox,
the bugs definitely have the advantage on us.
As if we didn't have enough to worry about...
__!_!__
Gizmo
Wesley Struebing
wrote:
>No comment on whether or not we will "balkanize" but I did think (and believe,
>silly me?) that we had outlawed the use and experimentation of offensize biological
>weapons. Am I wrong?
>
>Lisa Coulter
No, I don't believe you are, but - what's your point? Since when has
that stopped the gummint when it has an agenda?
You know, "don't do as I do; do as I say..."
....and pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...