ATTN: JMS - Religion in B5
Bill McClure
I've been wanting to write to you for a long time, but for one reason or
another, I've just never gotten around to it until now. First of all, I
just want to say thank you so much for giving us the best show ever
produced on television. Babylon 5 affected my life so profoundly in so
many ways, I know I could ever put it all into words. I was hoping you
might have time for a couple questions concerning the various aspects of
religion and spirituality that you portrayed on the show...
I've read various places that you are an atheist, so I'm assuming you
might have been trying to mirror some of your own personal beliefs with
the agnosticism of the Garibaldi character. But even if you don't
belong to any church or organized religion, I was wondering if you might
be a Unitarian-Universalist and just didn't realize it...?
I first came across the UU church a couple years ago. It's the only
church where I've really ever felt welcome and accepted, and it quickly
became a second home for me. In short, the basic idea behind UUism is
that there is truth and validity in *all* the world's religions --
exactly as you portrayed with Sinclair's long receiving line at the very
end of "The Parliament of Dreams," a scene which always moves me deeply
every time I see it.
I suppose our official list of UU principles is the easiest way to sum
up what our church is all about. As UU's, we covenant to affirm and
promote: the inherent dignity and worth of every person; justice,
equity and compassion in human relations; acceptance of one another and
encouragement to spiritual growth; a free and responsible search for
truth and meaning; the right of conscience and use of the democratic
process; the goal of world community with peace, liberty and justice for
all; a respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we
are a part.
To me, those things all sound a lot like ideas that G'Kar might have
included in the Interstellar Allliance's Declaration of Principles that
he penned at Sheridan's request.
For me personally, I have always carried this sort of belief system all
my life, but I always thought I was the only one. I never knew my
beliefs actually had a name until I came across a UU church. So I was
wondering how familiar you might be with UUism and whether you'd feel
comfortable in that sort of setting...?
Every UU church is quite different, depending on what the widely varying
diversity of its individual members brings to each congregation. Each
service is different too since our minister tries very hard to give
equal time to all the different kinds of spirituality. Our hymnal book
declares our faith as a "living tradition" and includes songs and
inspirational readings from all the different religions of the world.
Of course, that kind of diversity can also be a source of potential
conflict sometimes, since our church has members from such widely
differing creeds, ranging all the way from traditional Judeo-Christian
values, to Buddhism, Taoism, Native American spiritualism, and
everything else in between. The greatest source of conflict in our
church so far has been between our group of strictly
scientifically-minded humanists and the Earth-based neo-paganists who
espouse the Gaia principle and practice Old World religions like Wicca
or witchcraft. But as long as we all strive to adhere to our list of
principles, *everyone* is always welcome. Like G'Kar once said, "We
need not be afraid of those who are different. We can embrace that
difference and learn from it." Personally, I consider myself a "hopeful
agnostic," and I know we have some hard-core atheists there too. I
simply don't know of any other church that welcomes self-avowed atheists
with such open arms. The whole point is that everyone needs the freedom
to find their own spiritual and religious path, wherever their personal
search for truth and enlightenment might lead them. It's also the only
church I know of that doesn't claim to have all the answers on
everything or try to tell you how you should live your life.
I was just curious if you've ever had any experience with UUism,
especially because so many of the messages you conveyed in B5 are so
right on target with what it's all about. G'Kar's famous "We are One"
speech from the Declaration of Principles is a *perfect* example of the
Unitarian concept of the oneness and interconnectedness of all life. It
still gives me chills every time I hear it!
In short, Unitarian-Universalism is a liberal religion based on love and
the acceptance of all people. Sounds like you would fit right in, Joe.
;-)
Best regards,
Bill McClure
Jms at B5
>belong to any church or organized religion, I was wondering if you might
>
>be a Unitarian-Universalist and just didn't realize it...?
The way I see it, if you're going to be a unitarian you may as well be an
atheist and get it over with.
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
B5 Official Fan Club at:
http://www.thestation.com
(all message content (c) 2000 by
synthetic worlds, ltd., permission
to reprint specifically denied to
SFX Magazine)
Kurtz
"Jms at B5" <jms...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000202001145...@ng-cm1.aol.com...
> >But even if you don't
> >belong to any church or organized religion, I was wondering if you might
> >
> >be a Unitarian-Universalist and just didn't realize it...?
>
> The way I see it, if you're going to be a unitarian you may as well be an
> atheist and get it over with.
>
> jms
>
LOL! I almost sprayed the monitor! I know some unitarians
who may (not) enjoy that! (Although it makes perfect sense
to ME).
Chris Riesbeck
>>But even if you don't
>>belong to any church or organized religion, I was wondering if you might
>>
>>be a Unitarian-Universalist and just didn't realize it...?
>
>The way I see it, if you're going to be a unitarian you may as well be an
>atheist and get it over with.
The two definitions I heard years ago of a Unitarian
that I liked were
- atheist with small children
- someone who believes that there is at most one God
Tammy Smith
I also liked how JMS joked about our trolley (train-system) in San
Diego. For some bizarre reason, the hotel had JMS' presentation in a
big tent out below the trolley-tracks. Well, those trolleys kept coming
like every five minutes, & they were annoying! Finally, when one went
by, JMS said, "Damn Vorlon technology!" :)
Tammy
Jerome
Didn't Garrison Kellior say that once on "News From Lake Wobegon"..?
Jms at B5 wrote:
> >But even if you don't
> >belong to any church or organized religion, I was wondering if you might
> >
> >be a Unitarian-Universalist and just didn't realize it...?
>
> The way I see it, if you're going to be a unitarian you may as well be an
> atheist and get it over with.
>
Pat Kight
>
> >>But even if you don't
> >>belong to any church or organized religion, I was wondering if you might
> >>
> >>be a Unitarian-Universalist and just didn't realize it...?
> >
> >The way I see it, if you're going to be a unitarian you may as well be an
> >atheist and get it over with.
>
> that I liked were
>
> - atheist with small children
>
> - someone who believes that there is at most one God
I've always been fond of the Unitarian epitaph:
"All dressed up and nowhere to go."
--Pat Kight
(who's heard all of these from Unitarians, BTW)
kig...@peak.org
Jon Niehof
> sanely about it...
I have to agree. Compare and contrast: Carl Sagan's approach
to religion with JMS's. It was very hard for me to get
through Cosmos, seeing as he was calling me a mindless fool
on pretty much every page.
--Jon, N9RUJ jnie...@calvin.edu www.calvin.edu/~jnieho38
Satan is such a jerk
--szabo
Joseph O'Neil
>>Oh, dear--JMS isn't playing nice again! :)
>
>Hey, c'mon, I'm pulling my punches here.
Of topic here, but why do you pull most of your punches?
When B5 first hit the airwaves I though you must of been one of the
most religious or spirtual people around by the tone of most episodes.
Kinda blew me away to find out otherwise.
Most atheistic people I have met (and maybe I just run with
the wrong crowd) are so anti-religous and anti-spiritual in a nasty
way that even my Pagan/Wiccan friends run for cover, not just the
Christians or Muslims. I can partly understand their sentiments -
I've felt like throttling a few of these people who keep insiting on
knocking on my front door and "witnessing" to me, but I realize than
anything good can be abused.
There is a scene in the TV mini-series "The Stand" by Stephen
King were the character Nick tells Mother Abigail that he doesn't
believe in God, and Mother Abigail just laughs and says (quoting from
memory) "That's okay, because God still believes in you!"
Everytime I see that particular bit, I think of you for some reason.
:)
joe
Kristling Ravenshadow Dreamwalker
> > sanely about it...
> I have to agree. Compare and contrast: Carl Sagan's approach
> to religion with JMS's. It was very hard for me to get
> through Cosmos, seeing as he was calling me a mindless fool
> on pretty much every page.
religious caste member has been a person, and real, and treat respectfully
story wise in B5.
--
Who-I-am-------------------------------
Daniel S., aka Kristling Ravenshadow Dreamwalker,
Dancing with the Moonlit Knight and WRITERS List Kid 2000 (the Holden
Caulfield Award):
Quote----------------------------------
Babylon 5: Five Years of Wonder
"You bastard! You won't get away with this.
We'll strike back and we'll strike back hard!"
-- Londo to G'kar in Babylon 5:"Midnight on the Firing Line"
Contact--------------------------------
ICQ # 53874855 / ahsdrea...@home.com
Marvel X: http://welcome.to/marvelx - Co- EiC
---------I am Sigfreud, the Living Sig!
Daniel Last changed my food supply on January 30th 2000
Gave me SEVERVERAL new kookie jars! YEAH!
I, Sigfreud, was spawned by Kookie Jar 5.97d
http://go.to/generalfrenetics/ has it.
------------------------------------------------
Keith Wood
Joseph O'Neil wrote:
>
> On 2 Feb 2000 21:32:11 -0700, jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
>
> >>Oh, dear--JMS isn't playing nice again! :)
> >
> >Hey, c'mon, I'm pulling my punches here.
>
> Of topic here, but why do you pull most of your punches?
> When B5 first hit the airwaves I though you must of been one of the
> most religious or spirtual people around by the tone of most episodes.
> Kinda blew me away to find out otherwise.
One can be spiritual without being religious. One can also be religious
without being spiritual.
Kay Shapero
>> Of topic here, but why do you pull most of your punches?
>> When B5 first hit the airwaves I though you must of been one of the
>> most religious or spirtual people around by the tone of most
>> episodes. Kinda blew me away to find out otherwise.
KW> One can be spiritual without being religious. One can also be
KW> religious without being spiritual.
I've always liked the title of a version of the letters of Paul to the Romans
I came across "How to be a Christian without being Religious". :->
And of course sometimes it's the outsider that sees most clearly of all; I
loved the episode where Sinclair presented "Earth's dominant religion", while
that Baptist minister who came up later reminded me of many I have met.
Kurtz
"Kay Shapero" <kay.s...@salata.com> wrote in message
news:291_000...@salata.com...
> On 2000-02-05 12:49:50, Keith Wood of k...@bctv.com wrote;
>
> >> Of topic here, but why do you pull most of your punches?
> >> When B5 first hit the airwaves I though you must of been one of the
> >> most religious or spirtual people around by the tone of most
> >> episodes. Kinda blew me away to find out otherwise.
>
> KW> One can be spiritual without being religious. One can also be
> KW> religious without being spiritual.
>
> I've always liked the title of a version of the letters of Paul to the
Romans
> I came across "How to be a Christian without being Religious". :->
>
Man! I used to have that book. I've forgotten all about it. I haven't seen
it
in at least fifteen years. My brother used to think the cover art was funny.
> And of course sometimes it's the outsider that sees most clearly of all; I
> loved the episode where Sinclair presented "Earth's dominant religion",
while
> that Baptist minister who came up later reminded me of many I have met.
>
Including some of his tenderer moments, especially when he tells about
his wife sweeping and cleaning HIS floor. I still use that story, with
slight
variations, from time to time.( I do think JMS did overdo Brother Theo in
that episode, though).
John W. Kennedy
> One can be spiritual without being religious. One can also be religious
> without being spiritual.
While I know what you mean to say, please note that to most, oh, say,
Christians, that statement is pretty much a contradiction in terms.
--
-John W. Kennedy
-rri...@ibm.net
"Someone once told me that he believed in the Holy
Ghost, but only in a spiritual sense, and I asked him,
'In what other sense could you believe in it?'"
-- "Father Brown"
ImRastro
>Keith Wood wrote:
>> One can be spiritual without being religious. One can also be religious
>> without being spiritual.
>
>While I know what you mean to say, please note that to most, oh, say,
>Christians, that statement is pretty much a contradiction in terms.
Huh.....funny, I know lots of "religious" christians who are in no way
spiritual.
WWS
One of the supreme ironies of Christianity is that Jesus himself
fought with and condemned the excessively religious people of
his day. That's what got him killed.
He was always an advocate of spirituality over religion.
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
John W. Kennedy
>
> ImRastro wrote:
> >
> > John W. Kennedy wrote:
> >
> > >Keith Wood wrote:
> > >> One can be spiritual without being religious. One can also be religious
> > >> without being spiritual.
> > >
> > >While I know what you mean to say, please note that to most, oh, say,
> > >Christians, that statement is pretty much a contradiction in terms.
> >
> > Huh.....funny, I know lots of "religious" christians who are in no way
> > spiritual.
>
> One of the supreme ironies of Christianity is that Jesus himself
> fought with and condemned the excessively religious people of
> his day. That's what got him killed.
>
> He was always an advocate of spirituality over religion.
Nice to meet you, Mr. Dumpty.
--
-John W. Kennedy
-rri...@ibm.net
Compact is becoming contract
Man only earns and pays. -- Charles Williams
Rick Pali
> > One can be spiritual without being religious. One can also
> > be religious without being spiritual.
>
> While I know what you mean to say, please note that to
> most, oh, say, Christians, that statement is pretty much a
> contradiction in terms.
Speaking purely for myself, I think that's a shame.
sprock...@earthlink.net
> >But even if you don't
> >belong to any church or organized religion, I was wondering if you might
> >
> >be a Unitarian-Universalist and just didn't realize it...?
>
> The way I see it, if you're going to be a unitarian you may as well be an
> atheist and get it over with.
>
> jms
Wouldn't agnostics fall somewhere between unitarians and athiests?
Everyone ignores the agnostics...
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"So many ideas that sound crazy are indeed crazy, and if a busy man paid
equal attention to all of them he would never get anything done. The test
of a truly first-rate mind is its readiness to correct mistakes and even to
change course completely--when the facts merit it." --- Arthur C. Clarke
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cassius81
>Wouldn't agnostics fall somewhere between unitarians and athiests?
>Everyone ignores the agnostics...
Yeah, that always makes me mad. Mainly because I *am* agnostic.
De omnibus dubitandum.
Cassius' Quote of the Day:
Drall, to Ivanova: "I like you! You're trouble."
Keith Wood
Cassius81 wrote:
>
> sprocketeer said:
> >Wouldn't agnostics fall somewhere between unitarians and athiests?
> >Everyone ignores the agnostics...
>
> Yeah, that always makes me mad. Mainly because I *am* agnostic.
Agnosticism is the religious version of registering independent.
Atheism is more like counting on there never being an election.
Keith Wood
The Nuclear Marine wrote:
>
> Ahh, the sound of religiousity ringing the usenet.
Ahh, the sound of humanism ringing the Usenet. Sloppy humanism, for
that matter.
> Agnosticism in its truest sense is applied to God (That which can be
> neither proven nor disproven by the scientific method). This means
> there is no election.
>
> Atheism means you understand there is no need to vote as there isn't
> really an election.
You hope!
The big question is where you get the faith that there is nothing to
have faith in.
carl Dershem
> The big question is where you get the faith that there is nothing to
> have faith in.
>From looking at the evidence for religion, and seeing that there isn't any.
Chibi-Light
writes:
Sure there is, it's primitive science. "Gee, why did that tree fall on
Bob over there today during the hunt. I know, maybe the tree wanted
to kill him." Which would then go on to being that what made the tree
want to kill him, etc etc...Anyway, I'll shut up now.
CL
The Nuclear Marine
Keith Wood wrote:
>
> The Nuclear Marine wrote:
> >
> > Ahh, the sound of religiousity ringing the usenet.
>
> Ahh, the sound of humanism ringing the Usenet. Sloppy humanism, for
> that matter.
>
> >
> > Agnosticism in its truest sense is applied to God (That which can be
> > neither proven nor disproven by the scientific method). This means
> > there is no election.
> >
> > Atheism means you understand there is no need to vote as there isn't
> > really an election.
>
> You hope!
>
> The big question is where you get the faith that there is nothing to
> have faith in.
No, I am one of the few atheists that believe in God, but I have faith
in the knowledge he does not exist.
============================
The egg still came first
The Nuclear Marine
carl Dershem wrote:
>
> Keith Wood wrote:
>
> > The big question is where you get the faith that there is nothing to
> > have faith in.
>
> >From looking at the evidence for religion, and seeing that there isn't any.
Oh, wouldn't go that far. There is religion and some is based on
measurable items. Of course B5 took the more scientific approach but
seemed to lean on telepathy to heavily to bring it about (the dead
leaving substance in nearby objects, Ironheart, Vorlons all can lead to
worship of something greater than you see yourself as).
Maybe that is the true point of B5, you determine your position in the
universe(Humans having capacity to be as Giants). Others try to force
their ideas of your position on you (Mundanes are less than telepaths,
mankind being children to shadows and vorlons). Religion on most levels
revolve around lowering yourself even more before greatness instead of
striving for it.
====================================
I don't care how the story ends, I'll still route for the rabbit.