ATTN JMS: Characters Who Have Problems
Tammy Smith
write characters who have problems they need to overcome. This is what
I like about your writing the most. I've all ready mentioned my problem
with depression & how B5 helped me to deal with it (along with therapy,
of course) here. I also had to deal with OCD (obsessive-compulsive
disorder) along with it, so I had a tough time. It's nice to see
characters who also face real problems on television & in print. So
thank you again!
Tammy
Jms at B5
well as our virtues, and that's what makes us interesting, particularly from a
storytelling point of view.
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
B5 Official Fan Club at:
http://www.thestation.com
Ryan Nock
of negative personality traits (aside from being annoyingly persistent).
Sergey Bukhman
Ryan Nock wrote:
>
> And Marcus's flaw? I like Marcus, but he seemed to have little in the way
> of negative personality traits (aside from being annoyingly persistent).
Horrible taste in women?
--
Sergey
Worker bees can leave
Even drones can fly away
The queen is their slave
Derek Beebe
> > And Marcus's flaw? I like Marcus, but he seemed to have little in the way
> > of negative personality traits (aside from being annoyingly persistent).
> Horrible taste in women?
Marcus had bad social skills as a whole, especially with women, plus his whole
life was devoted to petty revenge, which as we are taught, is a very bad thing
for Rangers.
WWS
Marcus: He told me I had a lot of repressed anger.
(someone): And?
Marcus: I'm not repressed anymore.
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
norv...@sirius.com
<Tai...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> And Marcus's flaw? I like Marcus, but he seemed to have little in the way
> of negative personality traits (aside from being annoyingly persistent).
Marcus was self-destructive, always looking for a good, noble death. He
refused to let go of the pain that was taking him down that path, fixated
on Ivanova, and sacrificed himself to save her.
Also, he was, as some of his fans called him, "the Attention Deficit
Disorder poster boy." :-)
In article <384B25DE...@netropolis.net>, Sergey Bukhman
<ser...@netropolis.net> wrote:
>Ryan Nock wrote:
>>And Marcus's flaw?
>
> Horrible taste in women?
In your opinion. Actually, until he died (and I felt sorry and got used to
him...), he really annoyed me, and I can only think it's because *I*
rather wanted Ivanova and was jealous... ;-) I kept grumbling "Can't you
*tell* she doesn't want you? Go away." Actually, yes, he did figure that
out, which is why he never forced himself on her -- instead, he tried to
be like Lennier was for Delenn, and be forever her ally.
But no, IMHO, Ivanova wasn't "horrible taste in women". I honestly don't
get it when men say she's such a dog; I can't see it, myself. (But then,
I'm female, and am not supposed to see what men see. Instead, I see what I
see, and find her attractive. <shrug> It's the same weird mindset that
noticed that Marcus was attractive, but found him too annoying to care,
until later... like in reruns, after he'd died...)
Jms at B5
life away on because he could find little worth in his own.
Justin Bacon
writes:
>But no, IMHO, Ivanova wasn't "horrible taste in women". I honestly don't
>get it when men say she's such a dog; I can't see it, myself.
But not when women say it? ;)
Justin Bacon
tr...@prairie.lakes.com
norv...@sirius.com
tria...@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote:
> In article <1999120607...@mail1.sirius.com>, norv...@sirius.com
> writes:
>>But no, IMHO, Ivanova wasn't "horrible taste in women". I honestly don't
>>get it when men say she's such a dog; I can't see it, myself.
>
> But not when women say it? ;)
<thinks> (Help, I'm trying to think, and nothing happens.) Well, now, I've
never heard Ivanova called a dog by women. Maybe I haven't been paying
close enough attention?
James A. Wolf
><thinks> (Help, I'm trying to think, and nothing happens.) Well, now, I've
>never heard Ivanova called a dog by women. Maybe I haven't been paying
>close enough attention?
'Dog?' No. 'Bitch,' yes!
<runs!>
--
<*> James A. Wolf - jaw...@mediaone.net - people.ne.mediaone.net/jawolf <*>
"The jawbone of an ass is|"It is the human wish to be |"You're never going to
just as dangerous a wea- |told lies that keeps us as |find true happiness.
pon today as in Samson's |primitive morally and social- |What you gonna do, cry
time." Richard Nixon |ly as we are." David Horowitz |about it?" 'Weird Al'
Daryl Nash
>
> In your opinion. Actually, until he died (and I felt sorry and got used to
> him...), he really annoyed me, and I can only think it's because *I*
> rather wanted Ivanova and was jealous... ;-) I kept grumbling "Can't you
> *tell* she doesn't want you? Go away." Actually, yes, he did figure that
> out, which is why he never forced himself on her -- instead, he tried to
> be like Lennier was for Delenn, and be forever her ally.
> But no, IMHO, Ivanova wasn't "horrible taste in women". I honestly don't
> get it when men say she's such a dog; I can't see it, myself. (But then,
> I'm female, and am not supposed to see what men see. Instead, I see what I
> see, and find her attractive. <shrug> It's the same weird mindset that
> noticed that Marcus was attractive, but found him too annoying to care,
> until later... like in reruns, after he'd died...)
Sure, Ivanova was attractive. I found her attractive from the beginning. That
doesn't necessarily mean Marcus didn't have "horrible taste in women." Chasing
around an untouchable "goddess" who won't give you the time of day isn't exactly
healthy. If we're to judge from B5, people with that sort of obsession usually
wind up in trouble (Lennier and Marcus).
Daryl
Moyra J. Bligh
>In article <19991206045802...@ngol01.aol.com>,
>tria...@aol.com (Justin Bacon) wrote:
>> In article <1999120607...@mail1.sirius.com>, norv...@sirius.com
>> writes:
>>>But no, IMHO, Ivanova wasn't "horrible taste in women". I honestly don't
>>>get it when men say she's such a dog; I can't see it, myself.
>>
>> But not when women say it? ;)
>
><thinks> (Help, I'm trying to think, and nothing happens.) Well, now, I've
>never heard Ivanova called a dog by women. Maybe I haven't been paying
>close enough attention?
I've never thought of Ivanova as a dog, mind you I wouldn't categorize
her as beautiful either.
Generally when I say that a man has horrible taste in women, I ain't
talking about their looks. The guy I say it about most often (now long
dead) ended up over the years married to 3 absolutely nutcase
fruitbars. Boy, could he pick 'em. He even ended up with custody of
his son in the late 1950's and believe me, that didn't happen in that
day and age unless the woman had some very serious and significant
problems.
norv...@sirius.com
<dary...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Sure, Ivanova was attractive. I found her attractive from the
beginning. That
> doesn't necessarily mean Marcus didn't have "horrible taste in women."
Chasing
> around an untouchable "goddess" who won't give you the time of day isn't
exactly
> healthy.
Okay, this makes more sense to me. Definitely, it wasn't too healthy. But
I don't think Marcus ever was entirely healthy. JMS describes him as a
martyr, and I agree, because he always went looking for a noble death
instead of trying to get over his self-destructive pain. So he fixated on
someone to whom he could sacrifice himself. She didn't want him. He
should've taken the hint. However...
> If we're to judge from B5, people with that sort of obsession usually wind up
> in trouble (Lennier and Marcus).
Ohhhhh yeah. They think they can settle for being ever-faithfully by the
side of the women they love, needing nothing more, but get so fixated,
they react badly at the end...
Ryan Nock
I need to seek help? :)
But I don't think he was entirely a martyr. He certainly had high morals
and standards, and at the least he was occasionally witty. He was a
romantic, and as we saw, he was a hopeless one. But still, he did not go
through is entire life looking for a way to die. That was Sinclair.
Marcus, to me at least, held certain things to be more important than his
own life, and of course he was willing to sacrifice himself for those higher
ideals.
Finally, I think Marcus's . . . "crush (?)" on Susan was one of those wierd
things that just happen in some relationships. If either one of them had
been a little different--Ivanova more caring, Marcus less passionate--they
might (*might*) have . . . not worked out. That's too predictable, and
probably poor literature. But at the very least they might have helped each
other.
Dang, I wish Claudia Christian had been in Season 5. It would have been
interesting and sad to see how having someone die for you over unrequited
love would damage you.
Also, since Season 4 was compressed to end B5 in four years instead of five,
would Marcus have lasted through the fifth year, to die then, in the
original idea? But, done is done, and Marcus is dead (or at least pretty
close--see the closing credits of one particular episode, and you'll know
what I'm talking about).
Marcus and Ivanova were a tragedy, and no solution could have ended well.
If Marcus had let Susan die, he would have hated himself. And by
sacrificing himself for her, Marcus . . . did not help Ivanova's already
unstable life.
Look back to Comes the Inquisitor. Would you sacrifice yourself for the
life of just one person? Not for glory, but simply because you will not
abide by death? Marcus loved Ivanova, in whatever way and for whatever that
is actually worth. I don't know if I am better for it, but I would
certainly risk my life, or even sacrifice myself, if it would save someone
who I love.
Mac Breck
skills, no. Petty revenge? No way. Marcus was anything but petty. He
wanted to carry on his brother's work. Marcus was a noble character who was
a little insubordinate at times (when he thought he was right). Once on his
course, he was intrepid.
Mac
Derek Beebe <MrLi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:384AEFF0...@aol.com...
> Sergey Bukhman wrote:
>
> > > And Marcus's flaw? I like Marcus, but he seemed to have little in the
way
> > > of negative personality traits (aside from being annoyingly
persistent).
Mac Breck
others. Sure, he threw himself into some dangerous situations, but he
usually had the means to get himself out of them. If you're a Ranger, it's
all about service, sacrifice and being willing to die to save others. I
don't think he was "looking for the noble death" like that Minbari Warrior
Caste Ranger in "Learning Curve". Also, this noble death thing seems to be
part of the Ranger training.
>From the Lurker's Guide:
Turval's philosophy about meaningful deaths isn't shared by Delenn: in "The
Paragon of Animals," she told Franklin that the Ranger's death would be
meaningless if he took his information to the grave with him. Turval
wouldn't consider it meaningless, since the Ranger was pursuing a noble
cause when he died.
> Attention Deficit Disorder poster boy? Please explain.
Ivanova: ...Well, who wants to live forever, anyway?
Marcus: Well, I do, actually.
Mac
<norv...@sirius.com> wrote in message
news:1999120607...@mail1.sirius.com...
> In article <s4mbcs...@corp.supernews.com>, "Ryan Nock"
> <Tai...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > And Marcus's flaw? I like Marcus, but he seemed to have little in the
way
> > of negative personality traits (aside from being annoyingly persistent).
>
> Marcus was self-destructive, always looking for a good, noble death. He
> refused to let go of the pain that was taking him down that path, fixated
> on Ivanova, and sacrificed himself to save her.
> Also, he was, as some of his fans called him, "the Attention Deficit
> Disorder poster boy." :-)
>
> In article <384B25DE...@netropolis.net>, Sergey Bukhman
> <ser...@netropolis.net> wrote:
> >Ryan Nock wrote:
> >>And Marcus's flaw?
> >
> > Horrible taste in women?
>
> In your opinion. Actually, until he died (and I felt sorry and got used to
> him...), he really annoyed me, and I can only think it's because *I*
> rather wanted Ivanova and was jealous... ;-) I kept grumbling "Can't you
> *tell* she doesn't want you? Go away." Actually, yes, he did figure that
> out, which is why he never forced himself on her -- instead, he tried to
> be like Lennier was for Delenn, and be forever her ally.
> But no, IMHO, Ivanova wasn't "horrible taste in women". I honestly don't
Mac Breck
with Ivanova? I don't buy that. I don't think he ever *really* gave up on
that until she was mortally wounded. Then, it all changed.
Mac
Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991206021448...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
Mac Breck
>
> But no, IMHO, Ivanova wasn't "horrible taste in women". I honestly don't
> get it when men say she's such a dog; I can't see it, myself. (But then,
> I'm female, and am not supposed to see what men see.
>From the male perspective, I find her attractive, and not at all a dog.
Ivanova/Claudia just has fewer angles/expressions from which she looks
attractive. I've seen pictures in which she is very attractive, and others
in which she looks decidedly unattractive (in publicity shots, both fully
clothed, in her Earthforce uniform). Also, she had that great sense of
humor that tips the scales decidedly in her favor.
Mac
James Bell
wanted a relationship with Ivanova. He also believed it was never going to
happen and that there's nothing worth losing one's live over more than
unrequieted love. He showed signs throughout his tenure on the show that not
only was he willing to die for various reasons but that he actually looked
forward to it. He was willing to go back in time with B4, he faced Neroon
fully expecting to die, he killed himself for Ivanova. Sure, he may have
*wanted* happiness but he believed he was a martyr.
Jim
WWS
about Marcus anyway?
Mac Breck wrote:
>
> You mean he didn't really want to live and have a long term relationship
> with Ivanova? I don't buy that. I don't think he ever *really* gave up on
> that until she was mortally wounded. Then, it all changed.
>
> Mac
>
> Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:19991206021448...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
> > Marcus was a martyr waiting to happen, looking for something worth
> throwing his
> > life away on because he could find little worth in his own.
> >
> > jms
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
Mac Breck
There may be a difference between what the writer intends or has in mind,
and what actually comes out on the screen.
Given Marcus' personality, he wouldn't have given up on the idea of having a
more-than-friendship relationship with Susan until she'd been mortally
wounded. Then, for her to live, he had to die.
Mac
WWS <wsch...@tyler.net> wrote in message
news:3853DE4C...@tyler.net...
Iain Rae
> It isn't a matter of what he wanted so much as what he believed. Sure he
> wanted a relationship with Ivanova. He also believed it was never going to
> happen and that there's nothing worth losing one's live over more than
> unrequieted love. He showed signs throughout his tenure on the show that not
> only was he willing to die for various reasons but that he actually looked
> forward to it. He was willing to go back in time with B4,
what his Brother wanted to do but is willing to drop that in order to go
back with B4 (and gives Ivanova no thought), he drops out of the battle
against earth in order to save one life when billions are in the balance.
I'm not honestly sure whether I like Marcus or not, I'd certainly hate to
have him under my command.
Charles W.
Jms at B5 wrote:
> Marcus was a martyr waiting to happen, looking for something worth throwing his
> life away on because he could find little worth in his own.
>
> jms
>
> (jms...@aol.com)
> B5 Official Fan Club at:
> http://www.thestation.com
Funny, I thought you woukd say that about Byron. At least Marcus could have a
good time where as Byron has fanatic stamped all over him.
CJW
GreyWulph
>>get it when men say she's such a dog; I can't see it, myself.
>
>
Any guy who saw Claudia Christian's Playboy pictorial would be hard pressed I
believe to still call her a dog after seeing it. She's a very lovely woman.
Matthew B. Vincent
<snip>
>But no, IMHO, Ivanova wasn't "horrible taste in women". I honestly don't
>get it when men say she's such a dog; I can't see it, myself. (But then,
>I'm female, and am not supposed to see what men see. Instead, I see what I
>see, and find her attractive. <shrug> It's the same weird mindset that
>noticed that Marcus was attractive, but found him too annoying to care,
>until later... like in reruns, after he'd died...)
Well, Ivanova was very assertive (verging on aggressive), and this is a trait
which generally appeals more to women than men (at least in terms of today's
social climate and in the past). Similar thing to Lochley's image in _River of
Souls_ being viewed more often by women than by men. Some men can feel
intimidated by an aggressive woman, whereas some women like the idea of the
other person being strong and in control.
Anyway, speaking for myself, I don't really get the hots for people on TV any
longer. I've heard too much about how the media is superficial and manipulates
people with mass-produced images and all the rest of it. But yeah, I guess
Ivanova is physically attractive, and I don't think that's the point under
dispute. I think her personality is generally ok with a few faults, like most
people (in life in general).
One of my ex-girlfriends, who doesn't watch B5 (although I tried to talk her
into it) remarked that Ivanova was quite hard-nosed or something similar.
(This was while she was leading the White Stars in the Earth civil war). So
yeah, I think this was also a matter of her being seen as too aggressive for a
woman, which reflects society's stereotypes. That's why she was just a good
character for JMS to introduce in the first place (same deal with Lochley).
Matthew
Sandra Bursey
wouldn't call honoring a wish to your dying brother to fight in a worthy
cause petty revenge. I am not saying there was no revenge at all in his
motivation but it's far from petty imho. He was certainly carrying around
anger that he slowly got over through the course of the show but he wasn't
solely in the rangers for that reason. Marcus did care about people and
that played a role in being in the Rangers.
--
Take Care,
Sandra
"Nothing happens in contradiction of nature only in contradiction to what we
know of it." - Scully, Herrenvolk
"But the heart does not recognize boundaries on a map, or wars, or political
policies. The heart does as the heart does." - Delenn, The Illusion of
Truth, Babylon 5
Derek Beebe <MrLi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:384AEFF0...@aol.com...
> Sergey Bukhman wrote:
>
> > > And Marcus's flaw? I like Marcus, but he seemed to have little in the
way
> > > of negative personality traits (aside from being annoyingly
persistent).
Matthew B. Vincent
>Okay, now I feel bad. Since Marcus is my favorite character, does that mean
>I need to seek help? :)
Not at all. I don't think anyone was running Marcus down; they were just
talking about how he's an imperfect, real person with his own feelings and
character traits, some of which could lead to problems.
>But I don't think he was entirely a martyr.
Is it even *possible* to be entirely a martyr? Apparently, even Jesus had his
doubts.
>He certainly had high morals and standards, and at the least he was
>occasionally witty. He was a romantic, and as we saw, he was a hopeless one.
Sure.
> But still, he did not go
>through is entire life looking for a way to die. That was Sinclair.
Sinclair was perhaps somewhat more of a martyr than Marcus; Garibaldi once
pointed out to him (Sinclair) that he was taking risks because he found it
easier to find something to die for than something to live for. Still,
Sinclair wasn't a complete martyr either; he found things to cherish in his
own life too. His relationship with Catherine Sakai, for one thing.
>Marcus, to me at least, held certain things to be more important than his
>own life, and of course he was willing to sacrifice himself for those higher
>ideals.
That's one of the ongoing themes that is addressed in the show: the value of
life for the self and others. You neglect life if you are so afraid of facing
your own self that you devalue your own existence; and you also neglect life
if you look for power at the expense of others in order to protect yourself
from getting hurt, yet afford others no such protection.
With Sheridan's ramming the defence platform to stop the missiles being
dropped on Earth, he is affirming life, as were Delenn and Neroon when they
stepped into the Starfire wheel. However, you can go too far in the other
direction, as was shown with Marcus and Sinclair. Endgame covered the value of
life well as a theme, in addition to the nice guy problem theme, and the fact
that it was a climactic episode. The Marcus/Ivanova thread was a good way to
avoid an anticlimax - similar to the Bester thread in Epiphanies immediately
after the conclusion of the Shadow war.
>Finally, I think Marcus's . . . "crush (?)" on Susan was one of those wierd
>things that just happen in some relationships. If either one of them had
>been a little different--Ivanova more caring, Marcus less passionate--they
>might (*might*) have . . . not worked out. That's too predictable, and
>probably poor literature. But at the very least they might have helped each
>other.
In real life, things often don't work out and get quite messy, esp. when it
comes to relationships. B5 is pretty realistic about portraying that.
>Dang, I wish Claudia Christian had been in Season 5. It would have been
>interesting and sad to see how having someone die for you over unrequited
>love would damage you.
Indeed.
>Also, since Season 4 was compressed to end B5 in four years instead of five,
>would Marcus have lasted through the fifth year, to die then, in the
>original idea? But, done is done, and Marcus is dead (or at least pretty
>close--see the closing credits of one particular episode, and you'll know
>what I'm talking about).
Presumably you mean SiL, where it was mentioned that Ivanova kept his body in
cryogenics.
>Marcus and Ivanova were a tragedy, and no solution could have ended well.
>If Marcus had let Susan die, he would have hated himself. And by
>sacrificing himself for her, Marcus . . . did not help Ivanova's already
>unstable life.
>Look back to Comes the Inquisitor. Would you sacrifice yourself for the
>life of just one person? Not for glory, but simply because you will not
>abide by death? Marcus loved Ivanova, in whatever way and for whatever that
>is actually worth. I don't know if I am better for it, but I would
>certainly risk my life, or even sacrifice myself, if it would save someone
>who I love.
Well, you certainly aren't the worse for it :) Besides, being a martyr isn't a
character flaw in itself; it's more than having some emotional weakness which
damages your ability to embrace your own life can lead to martyrdom being a
way of dealing with that.
I'm not sure whether I'd die for another person if it was certain death,
that's too hard to say. But I'm pretty sure I'd risk my life if someone was
drowning or something similar, where the outcome is uncertain either way.
Another thing I was thinking about recently is how I would handle a war
situation. I think the most appropriate thing would be to just kneel and let
them decide whether to kill you, rather than committing violence yourself then
dying straight after.
Matthew
Matthew B. Vincent
>I've noticed, from watching B5 & reading Rising Stars, that you tend to
>write characters who have problems they need to overcome. This is what
>I like about your writing the most.
I like that aspect of JMS's writing too. The B5 world has been very real
and deep, rather than pushing feelings out of the way and using a worldview to
keep the audience comfortable. There are many aspects of the show which
provide a model for how to go about approaching life. The journey of working
towards goals and overcoming problems, ranging from internal emotional issues
to external events, is something I can relate easily to real life.
>I've all ready mentioned my problem
>with depression & how B5 helped me to deal with it (along with therapy,
>of course) here. I also had to deal with OCD (obsessive-compulsive
>disorder) along with it, so I had a tough time.
Yeah, that must have been difficult. Depression often goes together with OCD
or other acute disorders. I hope that things are going better for you now.
I've also had personal difficulties, which I've made quite a bit of progress
on, and B5 has been a part of that. It was about the time that Sheridan and
co. started facing up to the Shadows that I found more internal strength in
the same way. A bit later, the scene in Shadow dancing with Franklin lying on
the ground at the same time as Sheridan and Delenn were leading the battle
against the Shadows, had a similar effect for me also.
There are actually subtle themes in B5 which I think hint at certain social
issues, which are very pertinent to what I've been struggling with personally.
I don't think this is the appropriate place to elaborate too much on that, but
I've had anxiety and depression associated with post-traumatic stress. Things
are getting better and I'm confident that I can eventually work things out.
That's something which B5 is good for - providing structure and grounding so
you can work out where you are headed and how to get there. It's pretty hard
to put into words, but I can see how useful it is.
We're all going through some kind of journey in life, one way or another, and
it's good to be able to identify with each other on the basis of that. Just
like Ivanova said in SiL, B5 has taught us that there can always be new
beginnings, even for people like us. :) We all have choices, and there is
always hope.
Matthew
Iain Rae
> Jms at B5 wrote:
Thinks back to "that" Byron & Lyta scene.......I'm sorry what part of have a
good time don't you understand :)
Ryan Nock
decided to just be there for her as nobly as I could (it was probably a bad
idea on my part to use Marcus as a role model, though), despite the fact
that she didn't really appreciate it. And now we're back together, trying
to make it work. It can happen.
It just usually doesn't.
By the way, she loves Marcus. He's the ONLY charater on B5 she likes, and
won't watch any more episodes, but she likes Marcus.
Mac Breck <macb...@timesnet.net> wrote in message
news:RDR44.2584$5e3.1...@typ11.nn.bcandid.com...
> First, let me say that I *fully* realize I was replying to a JMS post.
>
> There may be a difference between what the writer intends or has in mind,
> and what actually comes out on the screen.
>
> Given Marcus' personality, he wouldn't have given up on the idea of having
a
> more-than-friendship relationship with Susan until she'd been mortally
> wounded. Then, for her to live, he had to die.
>
> Mac
>
>
> WWS <wsch...@tyler.net> wrote in message
> news:3853DE4C...@tyler.net...
> > Hey, Mac, that must be right! What does that other guy know
> > about Marcus anyway?
> >
> >
> > Mac Breck wrote:
> > >
> > > You mean he didn't really want to live and have a long term
relationship
> > > with Ivanova? I don't buy that. I don't think he ever *really* gave
up
> on
> > > that until she was mortally wounded. Then, it all changed.
> > >
> > > Mac
> > >
> > > Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > news:19991206021448...@ng-fp1.aol.com...
> > > > Marcus was a martyr waiting to happen, looking for something worth
> > > throwing his
> > > > life away on because he could find little worth in his own.
> > > >
> > > > jms
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > __________________________________________________WWS_____________
> >
>
>