ATTN JMS: Chris Carter Rumor
Tammy Smith
new series. Is this true? That would be great!
Tammy
Jms at B5
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
B5 Official Fan Club at:
http://www.thestation.com
John Norris
In article <19991119032307...@ng-fp1.aol.com>, jms...@aol.com
Tammy Smith
Notice that jms didn't deny it?
Tammy
Derek Beebe
> The most encouraging words I've heard in quite some time:
>
> I can't comment at this time.
>
> jms
You're right, this must mean he's actually in negotiations for it! Who-hoo!
Carter and JMS, responsible for two of my favorite shows, working together on
one show! Of course it will get cancelled after a month, but at least we'll
get a few cool eps. Seriously folks, this series will of course NOT be a
sci-fi epic (JMS earlier said his next series is like 98% mainstream), but
rather some kind of drama show with a tiny smidge of sci-fi... something like
The X-Files I'd say. I wouldn't be so sure it will be good though... Carter's
two spinoff series have not been extremely original, and when Millenium DID
get good inthe Second Seaoson Carter was not involved AT ALL it was Glen
Morgan and James Wong. Now JMS and the Wongs, THAT would be the perfect
show. Have you guys ever seen Space: Above and Beyond? Awsome show.
Emmanuel Goldstein
> Hmmm...interesting...
> Notice that jms didn't deny it?
Call the CIA and ask if jms is an agent of theirs.
You'll get the exact same non-denial.
emmanuel
Jeff Walther
Derek Beebe <MrLi...@aol.com> wrote in article
<38353C52...@aol.com>...
> show. Have you guys ever seen Space: Above and Beyond? Awsome show.
I guess it takes all kinds. S:A&B was pure dreck in my opinion. I can't
think of a single redeeming feature of the show.
in_vale...@hotmail.com
And that, in itself, to quote the Vulcan, is "fascinating." :)
It certainly gets the old mental wheels spinning, trying to imagine
what these 2 would cook up *together*.
scott tilson.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
James Bell
> Tammy Smith <gka...@webtv.net> wrote:
> > Hmmm...interesting...
>
> > Notice that jms didn't deny it?
>
> Call the CIA and ask if jms is an agent of theirs.
>
> You'll get the exact same non-denial.
I really don't think the CIA would say, "I can't comment at this time."
They might say, "It is our policy not to comment on our agents," or
something to that effect but there is a very different meaning. For
those of us who have lived through years and years of JMS being unable
to comment on various things, we know what his quote means.
Jim
Gharlane of Eddore
>
In <j.norris-191...@composer.cellbio.duke.edu>
j.no...@cellbio.duke.edu (John Norris) writes:
>
> The most encouraging words I've heard in quite some time:
>
And even better, he's not "EEP!"ing.
I hate it when he EEPs. I always worry he's going to explode.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
| __ __ |
| We are dreamers, shapers, singers and makers. / | / \ |
| We study the mysteries of laser and circuit, -|---+----+- |
| Crystal and scanner, holographic demons, | | | |
| And invocations of equations. |_/ \__/ |
| |
| These are the tools we employ. And we know... many things. |
| |
| .....including how to spell "gray." +\../- |
| |
| "Ars sine scientia nihil est." --- Martinus Paduei |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Maher
<01bf32cc$183aff20$2072...@userID.tnrcc.state.tx.us>...
times, sure. But I got past it because it connected to me at a gut level that's
hard to explain. For all of it's weaknesses, it still got me involved with the
characters and I think that any show that can do that is worth something. That's
what turned me away from ST:Vger. I couldn't relate to most of the characters in
any real sense.
__!_!__
Gizmo
Tom Holt
The message <38353C52...@aol.com>
from Derek Beebe <MrLi...@aol.com> contains these words:
> two spinoff series have not been extremely original, and when Millenium DID
> get good inthe Second Seaoson Carter was not involved AT ALL it was Glen
> Morgan and James Wong. Now JMS and the Wongs
.... don't make a right.
Jim Royal
wrote:
> You're right, this must mean he's actually in negotiations for it! Who-hoo!
Slow down, folks. Even if JMS is indeed in discussions with Chris
Carter, lots can go wrong in TV production, as we know. Being in talks
is not equivelent to shooting a pilot. And even if they get that far,
shooting a pilot does not automatically guarentee a series.
Still, it is interesting. I can only hope that Carter's next idea has
stronger legs than Harsh Realm...
Jim Royal
jimr...@total.net
Tammy Smith
when we were asking if Crusade had been cancelled. Can anyone else
remember if he did?
Tammy
Chris Carter
Hey, that's my line!
--
Chris Carter <*> car...@q7.com
Unaffiliated with both Q7 Enterprises and FOX TV.
The Reverend Jacob Corbin
Derek Beebe wrote:
> Have you guys ever seen Space: Above and Beyond? Awsome show.
*cough* *hack* crap! *hack* *wheeze* no physics! *hack* *cough* 90210 in space!
*cough* *wheeze* bad show! *wheeze* *cough*
Gharlane of Eddore
Derek Beebe <MrLi...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Have you guys ever seen Space: Above and Beyond? Awsome show.
>
"SPACED: ABYSMAL AND BORING" was so putrid it made "VOYAGER" and
"LOST IN SPACE" look like subtle, conceptually challenging material.
I think it's instructive that a "S:AAB" fan doesn't spell well.
In <01bf32cc$183aff20$2072...@userID.tnrcc.state.tx.us>
"Jeff Walther" <tr...@io.com> writes:
>
> I guess it takes all kinds.
> S:A&B was pure dreck in my opinion.
> I can't think of a single redeeming feature of the show.
>
Oh, come now, "S:AAB" wasn't all *that* good.
Nota bene, since this is being posted to the JMS/Chris Carter thread;
"S:AAB" was primarily a product of Morgan & Wong, not of Carter.
Morgan & Wong wanted to make a nitty-gritty WWII-style combat series,
and ended up doing nitty-gritty WWII-style SkiFfy. Since they had no
military background, no combat experience, and no scientific/technical
capacity to draw on; and cast actors of limited experience and training,
the result was a major debacle. After it was deep-sixed, they ended
up doing time on "MILLENNIUM," where the only positive contributions
seem to have come from Morgan having enough wit to occasionally kick
his kid brother Darin until a script or concept fell out.
=====================================================================
|| ||
|| "For me, the show is about exploring the different levels ||
|| of emotion that each character goes through, as they go ||
|| through them." -- Kristen Cloke, dropout English Major, ||
|| quoted in "STARLOG," March 96. ||
|| ||
=====================================================================
Derek Beebe
similar to B5 in that it was a 'realistic' space war opera with an ongoing
story arc, where the characters were the most important. You people say it
was boring and stupid: where? Sure some of the early episodes were lame,
but very quickly the universe and characters had been expertly established.
For at least the Wongs are capable of creating three dimensional characters
who you/I truely come to care about. The cancellation of S:AAB to this day
fills me with sadness, perhaps even more so than Crusade, because at least
with Crusade we essentially already had five seasons of it.
And without going into detail, Millenium Season Two was some classic
television for most of the same reasons S:AAB was: ongoing story arc and
realistic characters you come to care about.
and apologies for my occaisonal typos, yeesh. no reason for a personal
attack. lighten up.
Bernard HP Gilroy, maximum proconsul
Beyond was no B5 -- its backplot clearly had not been worked out in
any great detail, and they had an abysmal conception of the _scale_ of
outer space, they did begin to develop continuity and character.
I'm one of the many who saw the first few episodes and gave
up. Later I caught the reruns on the Sci Fi Channel, and became much
more interested .. the end of the first (only) season was much, much
better than the early episodes.
Susan Phillips
>The most encouraging words I've heard in quite some time:
>
>In article <19991119032307...@ng-fp1.aol.com>, jms...@aol.com
>(Jms at B5) wrote:
>
> I can't comment at this time.
>
> jms
>
So, does this mean there is a "beep" in our future?
"How can you be anal-retentive if you don't have an anus?"
Bartleby, "Dogma"
Susan Phillips
>I'm very surprized how many people in this group hate S:AAB! It was very
>similar to B5 in that it was a 'realistic' space
But, for me, the characters weren't interesting enough to get wrapped up in.
It was a valiant effort...and Morgan and Wong were great...not to mention
having a real hunk in McQueen <eg>...but it wasn't B5. It wasn't anywhere
close to B5. I wouldn't go as far as to say that it made VOYAGER look good,
as someone else did, but it wasn't close to B5.
Sue
Susan Phillips
Ryan Nock
pissed if I made a name for the Newsgroup called JMS@B5. Of course, it
doesn't take much to . . . oh, n/m.
Space: Above and Beyond was not 90210 in space. Sure, the physics sucked,
and I can't see Earth getting a massive space war fleet in the middle of the
next century (and I KNOW Pink Floyd will not be mentioned in American
History), but having suspended disbelief at the universe, the characters
were great. I even liked the martial theme they had (which was put to good
use in various minor keys).
90210 is sex and betrayal. This was war. Similar, but directed toward
different emotions. I am sad to say that if this had not been a sci-fi
show, I probably wouldn't have watched, but Morgan and Wong wanted mostly to
tell a story about war from a soldiers perspective, and not a sci-fi story.
Still, it fit together well.
And if I misspelled anything, shoot me.
Tom Holt
The message <38363FED...@aol.com>
from Derek Beebe <MrLi...@aol.com> contains these words:
> I'm very surprized how many people in this group hate S:AAB! It was very
> similar to B5 in that it was a 'realistic' space war opera with an ongoing
> story arc, where the characters were the most important.
There have been worse shows than S:AAB; shows with lamer premises,
worse actors, sillier science, less original storylines, marginally
less one-dimensional characters (ST:TNG springs to mind, for instance)
Just not very many, is all.
The basic idea behind S:AAB could have been made into a decent, even
good, TV series. A couple of things about the show - the fact that
the aliens weren't just humans with bumpy foreheads, the notion of an
underclass of clones created for an emergency and then abandoned and
despised - were really quite promising; which made it all the more
disappointing when the opportunities were wasted.
The fault, as always, lay with the writing. It was, after all, the
quality of the scripts that made B5 rather better than its
competitors in the genre.
Kurtz
Ryan Nock <Tai...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:s3dglh...@corp.supernews.com...
I liked it a lot too. But I also felt it was 90210 in one respect -
virtually every character looked liked they stepped off a runway.
They all looked the same. When Starship Troopers was coming to
theaters, I asked a friend about it, and he said nearly everyone in
it had been on 90210 or Melrose. So it often played like soap
opera in fatigues.
Gharlane of Eddore
>
> I'm very surprized how many people in this group hate S:AAB!
>
Free instruction to AOL Newbies here; it's "surprised." Note spelling.
>
> It was very similar to B5 in that it was a 'realistic' space
> war opera with an ongoing story arc, where the characters were
> the most important.
>
The characters were one step beneath the average episode of
"BEVERLY HILLS 90210" in terms of complexity and depth; they
just looked good in comparison to the lackwitted plots, the
incredibly barfulous botchery of technical concept, and the
mind-bogglingly stupid direction, production, concept, and
stunt casting.
As for "realistic," in any real-world military organization,
all members of the unit were in the brig or in front of a firing
squad after the first episode, so only the pilot would actually
have happened.
>
> You people say it was boring and stupid:
> where? Sure some of the early episodes were lame, but very
> quickly the universe and characters had been expertly established.
>
Nota bene: "expertly" appears to be a word which you do not
understand, or have some private definition for; in this
context it fails to carry an apprehensible meaning, since
many of us *saw* the episodes to which you refer, and while
many adjectives might pertain, "expertly" is probably not
among them.
>
> For at least the Wongs are capable of creating three dimensional
> characters who you/I truely come to care about.
>
Free instruction to AOL Newbies here; it's "truly." Note spelling.
Free instruction to "S:AAB" fans; the honcho producers were
"Morgan and Wong," not "Wong and Wong." The Wong Is Not Plural.
And as to the subject of that sentence, please have the courtesy
and maturity to speak only for yourself; the only "care" most of
us ever had for any of the "S:AAB" characters was an intense desire
to see them dropped free-fall into a neutron star.
>
> The cancellation of S:AAB to this day fills me with sadness,
> perhaps even more so than Crusade, because at least
> with Crusade we essentially already had five seasons of it.
>
This assertion begs explanation, but please refrain from attempting
further elucidation; while "CRUSADE" was only given thirteen episodes,
"SPACE: ABOVE AND BEYOND" was gifted with an *ENTIRE* SEASON, and a
total production budget for the twenty-odd episodes on the order of
FIFTY MILLION DOLLARS. On that kind of budget, many producers
contrive to contract people who can actually write Real Actual Scripts,
and then *produce* them for airing. The result of such a course of
action has, historically, been a TV show that people actually enjoy
and look forward to watching. Since the only dedicated fans of
"SPACE: ABOVE AND BEYOND" were people so lacking in discernment
that they *liked* the idea of a space-going aircraft carrier with
a landing deck like a WWII carrier, and some kind of Magical Gravity
that required small ships to expend fuel to land on its runway deck,
we can largely forget to take the dedicated S:AAB audience seriously;
they were of an intellectual caliber insufficient to hold jobs
at Burger King, much less be part of a demographically desirable
advertising audience.
>
> And without going into detail, Millenium Season Two was some
> classic television for most of the same reasons S:AAB was:
> ongoing story arc and realistic characters you come to care about.
>
"MILLENNIUM" was a loss from Day One, because Chris Carter didn't
have the chops to run *one* series well, and was spreading himself
over two. "Classic television" it never was, although some
individual episodes were marvelous. ( And the majority a waste
of film and production funding. ) It was carried by wonderful
atmosphere and some topnotch actors, and the rare conceptual
departure into something unique to TV, like Darin Morgan's
"Jose Chung" episode, and Darin Morgan's "SOMEHOW SATAN GOT
BEHIND ME," both of which were top-caliber work. But these
were *anomalies*, and the long-term plotline was just as murky
and ill-defined as the "jerk-it-around-every-week" crud over
on "X FILES," which has lost massive viewership over its run
by not playing fair with the viewer and rewriting the series
format whenever Carter thinks he has an idea.
>
> and apologies for my occaisonal typos, yeesh.
> no reason for a personal attack. lighten up.
>
Free instruction to AOL Newbies here; it's "occasional." Note spelling.
If you're going to write in public, you need to learn not to offend
your audience with anything but concept; you're making the same mistake
Morgan and Wong did, which is the presumption that something you create
with shoddy inattention and a degree of culpable ineptitude has some
value in the real world. Please be advised that this is not the case.
Try not to be so self-centered that you interpret disagreement and
writing corrections as "personal attack." You haven't *seen*
"personal attack," since it's not allowed on this moderated topic.
There are, by the way, Special Places in "News" for the Special
People who are fans of "SPACE: ABYSMAL AND BOTCHED."
You might enjoy the company on those topics, since the folks
who are denizens thereof see nothing wrong with conducting a
petition campaign to try to get "S:AAB" back on the air, flying
in the face of logic, art, intellectual endeavor, and basic
entertainment.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
\|/ __\/ \|/ \|/ _\/_ \|/ \|/ \/__ \|/ \|/\/___ \|/
@~/ Oo\~@ @~/ Oo \~@ @~/Oo \~@ @~Oo \~@
/_( \__/)_\ /_( \__/ )_\ /_(\__/ )_\ /_\__/ )_\
\___U/ \__U_/ \_U__/ \U___/
+ +
---------------------------------------------------------------------
( merge the two " + " characters for 3-D effect. (c) GoE, 1997 )
"My progenitors didn't spend five million years suffering and
competing like crazy to get me to the top of the food chain, just
so I could watch something like 'SPACE: ABOVE AND BEYOND' on TV."
--- E.K. Grant, "Entertainment Weekly" interview, March '98
Derek Beebe
spelling)
Well I guess from now on I will make sure to proof-read my posts before
sending them, but I'm not going to argue anymore about SAAB obviously we have
a difference of opinion and there's nothing wrong with that, we are all
entitled to our own opinion. Let me ask you one last question though: what
DO you like? Babylon 5 I presume since that is why you are here, but how did
you feel about Season Five (which in my opinion was lacking from the rest)
and Crusade?
Pelzo63
now, if we can get D.B. Sweeney, and Micheal O'Hare involved in this story
somehow.
one's a former hockey player, who turned into a figure skater after being
abducted by aliens, and mysteriously surviving a plane crash. the other, he's
a former human turned minbari after being kidnapped by aliens and mysteriously
surviving a suicide run at a minbari cruiser!
together they are, Lucky Valens!
oh, who is that knocking on my door? i'll be right back......
*thack* Thump* *thump*
-----Chris AOL/AIM--Pelzo63
http://members.aol.com/pelzo63/welcome.html
Ladies and gentlemen...elvis....has just....left...the bulding! -Mike Lange
Derek Beebe
EXCUSE me?! In what respect?! I don't watch those type of shows but I know
what they are like... and I really don't see the connection. Unless you are
talking about a serial story which unfolds, in which Babylon 5 is much more like
90210 than S:AAB is! I didn't see tight tee shirt teens getting in cat fights
and having sex and getting married divorced etc!
James Bell
Jim
Cassius81
Not bad. Could've been better. The characters were a bit cliche'd, a lot of the
dialog sucked, the science was hokey, the special effects were boring, and the
acting was about average. But every so often, the show'd give you a really cool
and memorable moment... and those were getting more and more common towards the
end of the show. Ah, what a shame... maybe season two would've picked things
up...
Cassius' Quote of the Day:
Yoda: "Judge me by my size, do you?"
Derek Beebe
> Most of the S:AAB cast were "tight tee shirt teens," and whiny teens at that.
What are you talking about?! They spent the entire series in those unisex jumpsuits
that didn't show anything!
Jacob Corbin
> Still, it is interesting. I can only hope that Carter's next idea has
> stronger legs than Harsh Realm...
And maybe JMS can teach Carter the subtle yet vitally important
difference between "homage" and "outright theft." (for the uninitiated:
when B5 works a riff on Miller's "Canticle for Leibowitz" into
continuity, it's homage; when Carter fails to credit the comic writers
who came up with "Harsh Realm", it's plagiarism).
Reverend Jake
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/shirley/272/
Jack Reed
>In article <19991119032307...@ng-fp1.aol.com>,
> jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
>: I can't comment at this time.
>
>Hey, that's my line!
>
>--
>Chris Carter <*> car...@q7.com
>Unaffiliated with both Q7 Enterprises and FOX TV.
>
It's pretty clear there's something going on with you guys, so when do
we get to find out?
Thanks.
Jack
Tom Holt
The message <38372EE7...@aol.com>
from Derek Beebe <MrLi...@aol.com> contains these words:
> but how did
> you feel about Season Five (which in my opinion was lacking from the rest)
(Assuming this question was addressed to the galaxy at large, not just GoE - )
Personally, I have no great problems with season 5; maybe because the
thread that interests me most is the rise & fall of Londo Mollari.
True, I found Robin Atkin Downes (or whatever he's called) profoundly
annoying; on the other hand, the telepath thread was essential to the
development and completion of the Lyta Alexander and Garibaldi
storylines. I felt the show was weakened by the loss of Ivanova and
Marcus, and Franklin continued to be as tiresome and unbelievable as
ever; and, in spite of a fine effort by Tracy Scoggins, Lochley
didn't work for me at all. On balance, though, it was good stuff, and
considerably stronger than what I consider the low points of the show
in season 4 (the hopelessly botched conclusion of the Shadow war, and
the downright silly Minbari civil war, which was sub-Voyager...)
For me, the best single moment in the whole of B5 was when we saw the
keeper asleep in the jar Londo gave to Sheridan and Delenn.
Jacob Corbin
> I'm going to go along with Derek on this one. While Space: Above and
> Beyond was no B5 -- its backplot clearly had not been worked out in
> any great detail, and they had an abysmal conception of the _scale_ of
>
> outer space, they did begin to develop continuity and character.
But you see, the problem is this: "begin to develop continuity and
character" isn't nearly good enough.
For one thing, why do people insist that the ability to carry a story
arc from one week to the next is a magic guarantor of quality? "The
Twilight Zone" was one of the best TV series ever made, and it sure as
hell didn't have an arc. Neither did most of "Star Trek" or "The Next
Generation", yet that didn't stop either of those shows from turning out
memorable episodes with quotable dialogue and moments of genuine
emotional heft. "B5" had an arc, but it still wouldn't have gone
anywhere without JMS' storytelling skills and the assembled talents of
cast and crew. Arcs can be powerful tools, but they require a certain
amount of care and feeding from talented, dedicated people. Otherwise
they add nothing to a show.
People are always making excuses for sci-fi on tv just because it's so
rare. "The dialogue wasn't *that* bad." "Who cares if so-and-so can't
act?" "Well, maybe in the future, there WILL be sound in space!" This
really has to stop. S:AAB failed in its duty to be, not just good
sci-fi, but good *television*. The actors were clearly hired for their
generic good looks rather than any pretensions to thespianism, and it
didn't help that they were speaking forced-sounding lines of chokingly
insincere dialogue.
Not only that, but the science shampooed my balls. It sucked, blew,
rim-jobbed, and all the other sexual phrases that're synonymous for
being appallingly bad. If you're going to try to pass yourself off as
science fiction, you'd damn well better crack open a goddamned high
school physics textbook before you have spaceships jetting around
asteroids like Spitfires. This is NOT negotiable. This CAN NOT be
excused by mouthing excuses like, "it's just TV." This is a realistic
expectation and tv viewers can and should expect a higher level of
return for their time investment. Put it this way: would you think "ER"
was good if it showed doctors peeing into open wounds and operating with
staple guns and refrigerator magnets?
*That's* what "Space: Above and Beyond" did, and that's why it had to
die.
Reverend Jake
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/shirley/272/
Derek Beebe
> On 20 Nov 1999 01:10:45 -0700, car...@q7.com (Chris Carter) wrote:
> >Hey, that's my line!
>
> It's pretty clear there's something going on with you guys, so when do
> we get to find out?
I think you're making an awfully big assumption that "Cris Carter" is THE
Cris Carter who does the X-Files. It's probably just somebody with the
identification of Cris Carter, maybe as a joke or maybe that's his name.
ImRastro
Its a little known fact that humans are genetically unable to enjoy more than
one sci fi show at a time. It was previously thought to be either a
personality disorder or a moral imperative, but the pervasive nature of the
syndrom has now led me to believe that it must be a much deeper compulsion.
Its true. Just read any group devoted to any show and you will find ample
evidence.
John W. Kennedy
> I'm very surprized how many people in this group hate S:AAB! It was very
> similar to B5 in that it was a 'realistic' space war opera with an ongoing
> story arc, where the characters were the most important.
But it _wasn't_ realistic. It was majorly, blatantly wrong about
everything. It was wrong about military organization. (Hint:
highly-expensive-to-train fighter pilots are not routinely assigned to
perform the tasks of infantry grunts.) It was grotesquely wrong about
physics and astronomy. It simply _ignored_ issues of zero-G and
relativity. It showed Phobos and Deimos from the surface of Mars as
large orbs, when, in fact, they are mere points. It showed a gigantic
Jupiter from the Trojan Asteroids, which are, by definition, as far from
Jupiter as we are. The thrusters on those troop carriers would serve no
purpose but to make the things spin like pinwheels. And why in God's
name would a race that finds water poisonous be interested in the same
planets as humans to begin with?
And the main characters were consistently portrayed as spoiled, whiny
teenagers.
--
-John W. Kennedy
-rri...@ibm.net
Compact is becoming contract
Man only earns and pays. -- Charles Williams
Ted Arlauskas
That's
where "X-Files" is shot and Chris Carter has an office on the lot. Not
that I'm
helping spread rumors or anything ... ;)
-Ted
Jms at B5 wrote:
> I can't comment at this time.
>
> jms
>
> (jms...@aol.com)
> B5 Official Fan Club at:
> http://www.thestation.com
--
t...@naxera.com | Visit the LA Palm User Group Home Page
http://www.naxera.com/ted | http://www.naxera.com/lapug
Corun MacAnndra
>
>Well I guess from now on I will make sure to proof-read my posts before
>sending them, but I'm not going to argue anymore about SAAB obviously we have
>a difference of opinion and there's nothing wrong with that, we are all
>entitled to our own opinion.
As Harlan Ellison is fond of saying (and before Gharlane quotes him here)
you are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your 'INFORMED'
opinion.
Corun
Joseph O'Neil
>Not only that, but the science shampooed my balls. It sucked, blew,
>rim-jobbed, and all the other sexual phrases that're synonymous for
>being appallingly bad. If you're going to try to pass yourself off as
>science fiction, you'd damn well better crack open a goddamned high
>school physics textbook before you have spaceships jetting around
>asteroids like Spitfires. This is NOT negotiable. This CAN NOT be
>excused by mouthing excuses like, "it's just TV." This is a realistic
>expectation and tv viewers can and should expect a higher level of
>return for their time investment. Put it this way: would you think "ER"
>was good if it showed doctors peeing into open wounds and operating with
>staple guns and refrigerator magnets?
>
>*That's* what "Space: Above and Beyond" did, and that's why it had to
>die.
-stuff snipped-
I both agree and disagree with you. "Space" sure did have it
faults, but it also had a who lot of potential, and the storeis it
told, despite the bad science, were very good, IMO. It had a human
quality tha I seldom see in any other TV show, Sci-Fi or not.
However, by your definition above, a TV show liek voyaguer
should of been kille doff long, long ago. The science is terrible in
that show, along witht eh storie, etc, etc.
Put it to you this way - I would much rather have "Space"
still on the air and Voyaguer cancelled.
Also, ST:TNG was absolutely terrible IMO during the first
season. A kid in civilian cloths piloting the major flagship of th
Fedration - GAG! The last two epsiodes of the first season I
enjoyted, but to this day I avoid reruns of the first seaon like the
plague.
But people gave it a chance to grow and evelop, a chance to
improve because it did have potential. I do not think ST:TNG really
came into it's own untill the third season. I think and belive that
is "Space" had been given a similar chance, it would of shown the same
promise. To bring it more down to home, the first season of B5 was
okay, but it did nto really grab me. It is only in repeats where I
can see the development of the story arc with hindsight that I can
apprecite the first seaon, but it it originally aired, it did not
terribly imporess me. Yet I gave it a chance, and i am very happy so
many others did too.
One last parting shot - if you do not mind. :) Insisting a
show should be killed off before it has a chance to develop is, IMO,
one reason we see so little quality TV anymore of anykind. But then
maybe the publis at large is nto interested in quality - maybe that is
why moives like "Pokemon" gross millions of dollars whiel moive like
"The Iron Giant" flounder in relative obscurity.
joe
http://www.multiboard.com/~joneil/store.html
http://www.oneilphoto.on.ca (Dec 01)
Jack Reed
[MODERATOR'S NOTE: Chris Carter is a long time poster to rastb5.m and,
yes, that is his real name but no, he isn't *that* Chris Carter (it's
been fun to watch the speculation, though!). He was one of the
supporters who brought this newsgroup to life. CLM]
Good point.
Jack
To...@fred.net
: I can't comment at this time.
: jms
Woo Hoo in TWCNBN Mode....
--
To...@Fred.Net http://www.fred.net/tomr
* "Faith Manages...... But Willow is in Tech Support"
Mary Kay Bergman 1961-1999
Derek Beebe
> But it _wasn't_ realistic. It was majorly, blatantly wrong about
> everything. It was wrong about military organization. (Hint:
> highly-expensive-to-train fighter pilots are not routinely assigned to
> perform the tasks of infantry grunts.) It was grotesquely wrong about
> physics and astronomy. It simply _ignored_ issues of zero-G and
> relativity. It showed Phobos and Deimos from the surface of Mars as
> large orbs, when, in fact, they are mere points. It showed a gigantic
> Jupiter from the Trojan Asteroids, which are, by definition, as far from
> Jupiter as we are. The thrusters on those troop carriers would serve no
> purpose but to make the things spin like pinwheels. And why in God's
> name would a race that finds water poisonous be interested in the same
> planets as humans to begin with?
>
Granted there were tons of scientific inaccuracies, but this series was driven
by the stories and the characters not scientific accuracy (as is obviously
apparent!). I enjoyed the series, but then again I don't nitpick every single
thing I experience I try to just get caught up in the story (which helps when
watching most modern entertainment). As for the Chigs going after the same
planets as humans, it was a revenge attack not a land war. The Chigs were
created by Earth; a piece of rock blasted off Earth with microscopic life hit
the Chig Homeworld and gave birth to the Chigs, then Aerotech started the war
with the Chigs. The Chigs were just attacking a foe not trying to secure more
planets.
>
> And the main characters were consistently portrayed as spoiled, whiny
> teenagers.
I really don't see where this is coming from aside from say the first THREE
episodes. After that they didn't whine anymore, but frankly I never saw much
whining aside from maybe in the Pilot with them being 'nervous in the service'.
But hell if you had the guy from FULL METAL JACKET as a Drill Instructor you'd
be nervous too.
Gharlane of Eddore
>
> Well I guess from now on I will make sure to proof-read my posts before
> sending them, but I'm not going to argue anymore about SAAB obviously we
> have a difference of opinion and there's nothing wrong with that, we are
> all entitled to our own opinion.
In <aIa_3.40469$oa2.2...@iad-read.news.verio.net>
co...@clark.net (Corun MacAnndra) writes:
>
> As Harlan Ellison is fond of saying (and before Gharlane quotes him here)
> you are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your 'INFORMED'
> opinion.
>
I didn't quote Ellison on the subject in my reply to the kid's posting,
since his literacy level makes it obvious that he's not someone who'd
know who Ellison is.....
Gharlane of Eddore
In <38372EE7...@aol.com> Derek Beebe <MrLi...@aol.com> writes:
>
> Gharlane of Eddore wrote: (general negative comments on SAAB and my
> spelling)
>
> sending them, but I'm not going to argue anymore about SAAB obviously
>
"Any more" is *two* words.
>
> we have a difference of opinion and there's nothing wrong with that,
> we are all entitled to our own opinion.
>
Clumsy run-on sentence. And no, we don't have a "difference of opinion."
"SPACE: AGONIZING AND BLETCHEROUS" was used cow-fodder from the get-go.
If you like it, enjoy it; but don't bruit it about as an example of good
TV, because it never even came close, and you won't get a lot of support
or respect from those of us who can read and think, and would prefer to
watch *good* TV.
>
> Let me ask you one last question though: what DO you like?
>
Redheads. Classical music. Glass-bedded match rifles with 2000-yard sights.
>
> Babylon 5 I presume since that is why you are here, but how did
> you feel about Season Five (which in my opinion was lacking from
> the rest) and Crusade?
>
I won't even *try* to explain to you why that sentence needs to be
rewritten. I presume you're about twelve, and going to school in
Calfornia; nothing else would explain such a degree of writing
disability. ( Although given your fondness for "S:AAB," we could
legitimately presume some degree of central nervous system damage,
possibly from cranial trauma in early childhood, or current abuse
of recreational pharmaceuticals. )
"BABYLON 5" was the first serious attempt at TV-SF in a loooong time,
rarely-to-occasionally bordering on being actual Science Fiction.
The best show in current production is Glassner & Wright's "STARGATE SG-1."
The quality is hugely variable, but they've done some great episodes, and
maintain a decent degree of internal consistency.
Derek Beebe
> Clumsy run-on sentence. And no, we don't have a "difference of opinion."
> "SPACE: AGONIZING AND BLETCHEROUS" was used cow-fodder from the get-go.
> If you like it, enjoy it; but don't bruit it about as an example of good
> TV, because it never even came close, and you won't get a lot of support
> or respect from those of us who can read and think, and would prefer to
> watch *good* TV.
> I won't even *try* to explain to you why that sentence needs to be
> rewritten. I presume you're about twelve, and going to school in
> Calfornia; nothing else would explain such a degree of writing
> disability. ( Although given your fondness for "S:AAB," we could
> legitimately presume some degree of central nervous system damage,
> possibly from cranial trauma in early childhood, or current abuse
> of recreational pharmaceuticals. )
Thanks for the entertainment! Pretty funny stuff. (I'm not being sarcastic)
Wesley Struebing
<rri...@attglobal.net> wrote:
>Derek Beebe wrote:
>> I'm very surprized how many people in this group hate S:AAB! It was very
>> similar to B5 in that it was a 'realistic' space war opera with an ongoing
>> story arc, where the characters were the most important.
>
>But it _wasn't_ realistic. It was majorly, blatantly wrong about
>everything. It was wrong about military organization. (Hint:
>highly-expensive-to-train fighter pilots are not routinely assigned to
>perform the tasks of infantry grunts.) It was grotesquely wrong about
>physics and astronomy. It simply _ignored_ issues of zero-G and
>relativity. It showed Phobos and Deimos from the surface of Mars as
>large orbs, when, in fact, they are mere points. It showed a gigantic
>Jupiter from the Trojan Asteroids, which are, by definition, as far from
>Jupiter as we are. The thrusters on those troop carriers would serve no
>purpose but to make the things spin like pinwheels. And why in God's
>name would a race that finds water poisonous be interested in the same
>planets as humans to begin with?
Picky, picky...<G>
>
>And the main characters were consistently portrayed as spoiled, whiny
>teenagers.
Well, John, other than that, how'd you like the show?
(argh! I didn't say that! 8-))
I agree with what you say - and I *wanted* to like the show. Oh,
well...
Matthew B. Vincent
>Personally, I have no great problems with season 5; maybe because the
>thread that interests me most is the rise & fall of Londo Mollari.
Yeah, that's an interesting threat. I can't wait to read the Centauri Prime
trilogy.
>True, I found Robin Atkin Downes (or whatever he's called) profoundly
>annoying; on the other hand, the telepath thread was essential to the
>development and completion of the Lyta Alexander and Garibaldi
>storylines.
Yeah, I didn't find the telepath thread in season 5 quite as exciting as the
Centauri one, but perhaps that's because the latter was so good that the
former paled in comparison.
> I felt the show was weakened by the loss of Ivanova and
>Marcus, and Franklin continued to be as tiresome and unbelievable as
>ever;
What don't you like about Franklin? I like him. He's very humanitarian, for
one thing.
>and, in spite of a fine effort by Tracy Scoggins, Lochley
>didn't work for me at all.
Well yeah, she did kinda come into things out of nowhere, but then again, life
is meant to be full of changes. One of the messages of the show, that.
> On balance, though, it was good stuff, and
>considerably stronger than what I consider the low points of the show
>in season 4 (the hopelessly botched conclusion of the Shadow war,
Hopelessly botched?? I think that the conclusion was done well, and the next
episode (Epiphanies) follows on well without being an anti-climax, by getting
straight back into the plot with the Clark/Bester thread. The Shadow war
conclusion was designed to make us think about what "good" and "evil" really
mine, i.e. think in terms of valuing life, rather than seeing things purely in
terms of political affiliations (i.e. the Shadows being "the enemy"). For a
definition of pure evil, neither the vorlons nor shadows came close - the
telepathic aliens from Thirdspace would be the best example of pure evil.
>and the downright silly Minbari civil war, which was sub-Voyager...)
The Minbari civil war actually contained some very important lessons. The
main plot was about gender issues, plus there were the comments about war,
politics, religion, etc. during the episodes. Also, the occurence of the
Minbari civil war following the Shadow war demonstrates how wars tend to lead
to further negative repercussions - just as we saw with WWI leading to WWII.
Matthew
Matthew B. Vincent
>Notice that jms didn't deny it?
But not denying it doesn't make it true, any more than not confirming it would
make it false. If JMS were to take the time to deny all the things that
aren't, and confirm all the things that are, then he'd be here forever. :)
Matthew
Trek Barnes
Gharlane of Eddore <ghar...@ccshp1.ccs.csus.edu> wrote in message
news:81bsc3$s...@news.csus.edu...
>
> In <38372EE7...@aol.com> Derek Beebe <MrLi...@aol.com> writes:
> >
> > Gharlane of Eddore wrote: (general negative comments on SAAB and my
> > spelling)
> >
> > Well I guess from now on I will make sure to proof-read my posts before
> > sending them, but I'm not going to argue anymore about SAAB obviously
> >
>
> "Any more" is *two* words.
>
> >
> > we have a difference of opinion and there's nothing wrong with that,
> > we are all entitled to our own opinion.
> >
>
opinion."
> "SPACE: AGONIZING AND BLETCHEROUS" was used cow-fodder from the get-go.
> If you like it, enjoy it; but don't bruit it about as an example of good
> TV, because it never even came close, and you won't get a lot of support
> or respect from those of us who can read and think, and would prefer to
> watch *good* TV.
>
> >
> >
>
> Redheads. Classical music. Glass-bedded match rifles with 2000-yard
sights.
>
> >
> > Babylon 5 I presume since that is why you are here, but how did
> > you feel about Season Five (which in my opinion was lacking from
> > the rest) and Crusade?
> >
>
> rewritten. I presume you're about twelve, and going to school in
> Calfornia; nothing else would explain such a degree of writing
> disability. ( Although given your fondness for "S:AAB," we could
> legitimately presume some degree of central nervous system damage,
> possibly from cranial trauma in early childhood, or current abuse
> of recreational pharmaceuticals. )
>
>
> rarely-to-occasionally bordering on being actual Science Fiction.
>
> The best show in current production is Glassner & Wright's "STARGATE
SG-1."
> The quality is hugely variable, but they've done some great episodes, and
> maintain a decent degree of internal consistency.
Agreed. SG-1 does have some bad plots now and then. (I.E. Most recent
syndicated episode, with the giant bugs) BUT, they execute the plot much
better then most Sci-Fi shows. (Compare it with ST:TNG Genesis, or ST:Voy
Threshold)
(Hopes my grammar and spelling were not too bad.)
(Almost forgot about that Alt.Dev.Null redirection)
>
>
>
>
James Bell
But JMS *did* take the time for his non-denial. So the time factor doesn't play
here. If there were absolutely nothing to the rumor, he would have said so.
Jim
Brian Watson
> On 20 Nov 1999 01:10:45 -0700, car...@q7.com (Chris Carter) wrote:
>
> >In article <19991119032307...@ng-fp1.aol.com>,
> > jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
> >: I can't comment at this time.
> >
> >Hey, that's my line!
> >Chris Carter <*> car...@q7.com
> >Unaffiliated with both Q7 Enterprises and FOX TV.
> >
>
> It's pretty clear there's something going on with you guys, so when do
> we get to find out?
LOL!!!
You did catch his tag didn't you? Unaffiliated with FOX TV? He's not
THAT Chris Carter.
Bill Clinton
Brian Watson
Oh please. This is getting ridiculous. Why don't you just wait for him to come out
and say something one way or the other if he is doing a project with Chris Carter
instead of hounding him over it? I almost hope he isnt', and if he is, then Carter
definately needs the help with the quality of work he's been doing the last few
years.
Gharlane of Eddore
In <3839175B...@aol.com> Derek Beebe <MrLi...@aol.com> writes:
>
> Granted there were tons of scientific inaccuracies, but this series was
> driven by the stories and the characters not scientific accuracy (as is
> obviously apparent!). I enjoyed the series, but then again I don't
>
"Driven by the characters?" Since the characters were completely
unbelieveable, had the motivations of grade-schoolers, and were
inept and disgusting, and were painted with all the fine detail
of a drunken painter's apprentice with a roller, your assertions
are amazing, albeit not strongly related to reality.
>
> nitpick every single thing I experience I try to just get caught up
> in the story (which helps when watching most modern entertainment).
>
"Nitpick" is not a concept that pertains, when watching a TV series
that flies in the face of logic and art, and does things like
ignoring the speed of light, military chain of command, grade-school
physics, and elementary story logic. Please try to get a grip
on yourself.
>
> As for the Chigs going after the same planets as humans, it was a
> revenge attack not a land war. The Chigs were created by Earth;
> a piece of rock blasted off Earth with microscopic life hit the Chig
> Homeworld and gave birth to the Chigs, then Aerotech started the war
> with the Chigs. The Chigs were just attacking a foe not trying to
> secure more planets.
>
"A piece of rock blasted off Earth with microscopic life hit the
Chig Homeworld and gave birth to the Chigs...."
Try to look at this concept from an objective viewpoint for a second.
*THINK* about it. This is not "nit-picking." This is jaw-dropping,
mind-boggling, insane, conceptual incompetence.
As for your comments on "spoiled, whiny brats,"
>
> I really don't see where this is coming from aside from say the first
> THREE episodes. After that they didn't whine anymore, but frankly I
>
"Any more" is *two* words.
And be sure to include the other twenty-odd episodes....
>
> never saw much whining aside from maybe in the Pilot with them being
> 'nervous in the service'. But hell if you had the guy from FULL
> METAL JACKET as a Drill Instructor you'd be nervous too.
>
The characters were portrayed as self-involved socially incompetent
losers suffering from massive bouts of Teen Angst. They were sloppy
clones of the children on "BEVERLY HILLS 90210," and their problems
and tribulations uninteresting, uncompelling, and pitifully portrayed.
The real military is simply NOT like that; and when you have two
producers who've never served day one on active duty, never seen
combat, don't know squat about military procedures, and can't be
bothered to get a military advisor any more than the technical
advisor they needed even more desperately, you end up with
unmitigated twaddle like "S:AAB."
"The guy from FULL METAL JACKET" was, as always, completely ridiculous.
( As was the movie. )
Please avoid the use of terms like "realism" and "realistic" in
relation to pseudo-military tosh aimed at pre-teens, written by
people too egotistical to acknowledge their limitations.
=========================================================================
=========================================================================
Excerpt from the InterNet I.Q. Test for AOL Subscribers:
#001. Find your way through the maze. (Three attempts allowed.)
+------------------------------------------------------------+
| (+) 0 |
+--|------------------------------------------------------|--+
| |
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(Ten attempts allowed.)
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=========================================================================
Tammy Smith
Beyond, even though I'm not a fan. I'm mystified about the popularity
of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire! They had it on in the breakroom at
work, & everyone was riveted by it. The show did nothing for me. I
predict that when someone finally wins that million, the craze will be
over.
Tammy
PS--Oh, well--I can't understand why Pokemon is popular, either. I
guess it's those cards.
GaryG4430
of Eddore) writes:
8< many lines of most excellent ranting.
>There are, by the way, Special Places in "News" for the Special
>People who are fans of "SPACE: ABYSMAL AND BOTCHED."
>
>You might enjoy the company on those topics, since the folks
>who are denizens thereof see nothing wrong with conducting a
>petition campaign to try to get "S:AAB" back on the air, flying
>in the face of logic, art, intellectual endeavor, and basic
>entertainment.
>
Dang, that was good.
Gharlane, your the best.
I do admit that SPACE: Low and Away. had it's moments.
There just weren't enough of them.
The 'Baron Von Chiggy' ep. was pretty good.
Kinda.
Sorta.
Maybe.
Gary G.
--
Gary Grossoehme - GaryG4430 "at" aol "dot" com
Oregon Electronics - 503-239-5293
935 NE Couch St. - Computer Cable Specialists
Portland, Oregon - Member: AfterBurner Fan Club.
Nathan Shafer
>
> I'm very surprized how many people in this group hate S:AAB! It was very
> similar to B5 in that it was a 'realistic' space war opera with an ongoing
> story arc
1. "realistic" - tell that to any sort of engineer or astrophysicist
who watched "S:AAB"; they will buy you the next round simply for
making them laugh so hard.
2. "story arc" - this does not simply mean a sequence of non-repeated
events, or even events which affect each other. (i.e. in one
episode of "ST:DS9" Jadzia dies, in the next she's still dead).
It means that a sequence of stories, taken together, have an
overall story with a beginning, rising action, a middle, a climax,
a denouement, and a finale.
So far, I really haven't seen *anything* on TeeVee except Babylon5
which had any discernible story arc, up to and including The Drex
Files.
- Nathan
Jaimie Winn
"any more is two words"
Gharlane, if you're going to criticize someone, please get your facts
straight. According to both Webster's and The American Heritage
Dictionary "anymore" is ONE WORD.
Mark Maher
[ Your display is set for the "US-ASCII" character set. ]
[ Some characters may be displayed incorrectly. ]
Matthew B. Vincent wrote in message ...
<SNIP>
>> I felt the show was weakened by the loss of Ivanova and
>>Marcus, and Franklin continued to be as tiresome and unbelievable as
>>ever;
>
>What don't you like about Franklin? I like him. He's very humanitarian, for
>one thing.
I think some people didn't like Franklin because many of the episodes that
featured him examined very difficult issues, and didn't necessarily provide a
pat answer to the issues. That makes some people uncomfortable and that
discomfort carried over to the character.
As for Ivanova, sure the show was hurt in some ways by the loss of Claudia. From
all reports, she was always a source of entertainment behind the scenes for the
cast and crew and if there was any loss, it was in that role. As for the story
itself, the requirement to establish the new character was handled quite well I
thought.
>>and, in spite of a fine effort by Tracy Scoggins, Lochley
>>didn't work for me at all.
>
>Well yeah, she did kinda come into things out of nowhere, but then again, life
>is meant to be full of changes. One of the messages of the show, that.
Agreed. I may be the only one in the room who thinks so, but I liked the Lockley
character. I think they missed an opportunity to play her with Delenn more.
After all, they did have one very important thing in common. While I agree with
the way the two characters handled the situation between them, they certainly
could have made life a little more interesting for John. I think jms just let
that thread die out a bit too quickly. There probably just wasn't time to get
back to it.
>> On balance, though, it was good stuff, and
>>considerably stronger than what I consider the low points of the show
>>in season 4 (the hopelessly botched conclusion of the Shadow war,
>
>Hopelessly botched?? I think that the conclusion was done well, and the next
>episode (Epiphanies) follows on well without being an anti-climax, by getting
>straight back into the plot with the Clark/Bester thread. The Shadow war
>conclusion was designed to make us think about what "good" and "evil" really
>mine, i.e. think in terms of valuing life, rather than seeing things purely in
>terms of political affiliations (i.e. the Shadows being "the enemy"). For a
>definition of pure evil, neither the vorlons nor shadows came close - the
>telepathic aliens from Thirdspace would be the best example of pure evil.
It was the unexpected thing, for sure, but it was in reality the only way that
the conflict could be ended that left our protagonists alive. Sheridan was
right, they couldn't be expected to prevail militarily against both the Vorlons
and the Shadows. That was clearly demonstrated when the Shadow planet killer
surrounded the fleet and began to shoot at the White Star II.
>>and the downright silly Minbari civil war, which was sub-Voyager...)
>
>The Minbari civil war actually contained some very important lessons. The
>main plot was about gender issues, plus there were the comments about war,
>politics, religion, etc. during the episodes. Also, the occurence of the
>Minbari civil war following the Shadow war demonstrates how wars tend to lead
>to further negative repercussions - just as we saw with WWI leading to WWII.
The Minbari Civil War was set up by a previous war, but it was the Earth-Minbari
War, not the Shadow-Vorlon War. If anything, the prophesy of the upcoming Shadow
War held the military caste in some check. The Warrior Caste hated the Religious
Caste for the surrender order but they could not act against them openly as long
as the spectre of the Shadow War hung over them.
It's resolution was classic Delenn. She sought an ally in the most unexpected
place and together she and Neroon maneuvered her counterpart into a position
where she could discredit him and his "philosophy" of returning to the Old Ways
by using them against him. Kind of like what she and Sheridan did to the Shadows
and the Vorlons earlier.
Diane K De
>Date: Tue, 23 November 1999 03:33 PM EST
>Message-id: <20768-38...@storefull-131.iap.bryant.webtv.net>
>
>I'm not really mystified as to why someone would like Space: Above &
>Beyond, even though I'm not a fan. I'm mystified about the popularity
>of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire! They had it on in the breakroom at
>work, & everyone was riveted by it. The show did nothing for me. I
>predict that when someone finally wins that million, the craze will be
>over.
>
>Tammy
Happened last Friday. The ratings since have not abated.
DD
John W. Kennedy
> So far, I really haven't seen *anything* on TeeVee except Babylon5
> which had any discernible story arc, up to and including The Drex
> Files.
Believe it or not, "Pokemon".
Nathan Shafer
>
> Nathan Shafer wrote:
> > So far, I really haven't seen *anything* on TeeVee except Babylon5
> > which had any discernible story arc, up to and including The Drex
> > Files.
>
> Believe it or not, "Pokemon".
That's it, I'm packin' for Aruba. If the world is going to end, I'm
going to be someplace warm when it happens.
And perhaps after. ;-)
- Nathan
Brian Watson
Don't react badly to this. It's not as if Pokemon is special in any manner,
it's just that the Japanese have had a love affair with the story arc for a
long time. Robotech, Sailor Moon, Digimon, Power Rangers, whatever, whatever,
whatever. Name an Anime series and it almost certainly has a story arc to it.
Cassius81
Incidentally... a pal of mine at school just loaned me the first two tapes of
Neon Genesis Evangelion. This show has really impressed me... think Ultraman
meets Ender's Game. The characters are all likable so far, and the action bits
(while nothing I haven't seen before) ain't bad either. And that silver-haired
girl, Rei (I *think* that's her name), has become my new role model, despite
the fact that she's had maybe three lines of dialogue.
Oh... and the opening credits have really hummable music, too.
I'm going to watch the rest of this little series. It ain't great, but it sure
beats the hell out of Voyager...
Cassius' Quote of the Day:
Misato Katsuragi: "Ah, air conditioning... man's triumph over nature..."
swf102
Not to be too picky, but there is no such word as "anymore" in the
English language. There are, however, the two words "any" and "more"
that are often used together. That's what the Oxford English Dictionary
2nd edition says as does the Cambridge University International
Dictionary,
to pick two at random.
[resume lurk mode]
Simon
<<<*>>>
Conflict does not only determine who is right, but also who is left.
http://yats.cjb.net
Tom Holt
The message <81einv$8as$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
from "Mark Maher" <marka...@worldnet.att.net> contains these words:
> I think some people didn't like Franklin because many of the episodes that
> featured him examined very difficult issues, and didn't necessarily provide a
> pat answer to the issues.
The 'issues' didn't bother me, except insofar as turning what's
supposed to be a drama into a soapbox for some (usually stale & dead)
'issue' always annoys the hell out of me - it's the main reason why
so much of ST:TNG gives me a pain. Fortunately, JMS was (usually)
above that sort of thing, and got on with telling the story and
developing the characters.
My beef with Franklin is that (a) Mr Biggs couldn't act his way out
of a wet paper bag (b) the character was largely superfluous, which
meant that extraneous bits of fluff had to be tacked on to keep him
occupied - for example, the Franklin-gets-stabbed nonsense in Shadow
Dancing. At a moment when the real drama is just starting to wind up
and get very interesting indeed, wasting time on Franklin's cliche'd
self-discovery nonsense was extremely annoying and intrusive.
As a character, Franklin is pure Star Trek, and therefore out of
place in a superior production like B5
> Agreed. I may be the only one in the room who thinks so, but I liked the Lockley
> character.
Like Ezri on DS9, Lochley was an unfortunate necessity... Unlike
Ezri, though, Lochley was an interesting and worthwhile character in
her own right, and it's a pity there wasn't more scope to develop her
in, for example, the direction hinted at in 'Day Of The Dead'.
I admire Scoggins as an actress (ah, if only she'd auditioned for
Janeway...) but this wasn't her finest hour; bricks without straw,
and all that. Another reason why there should have been a sixth season...
> It was the unexpected thing, for sure, but it was in reality the only way that
> the conflict could be ended that left our protagonists alive. Sheridan was
> right, they couldn't be expected to prevail militarily against both the Vorlons
> and the Shadows. That was clearly demonstrated when the Shadow planet killer
> surrounded the fleet and began to shoot at the White Star II.
With respect, no; it was a cop-out and an anticlimax, and darned near
spoilt for me everything that had gone before (I started feeling
uneasy with all that tick-tock drivel in "Whatever Happened To..?")
JMS is a master if his art and can handle a vast array of subjects
with consummate ease. Mysticism, however, ain't one of them.
Equally sloppy was the sudden (non-)appearance of all those buckshee
First Ones about two minutes before the start of the big punch-up. No
need to bring them on at all; they contribute nothing beyond some
rather dismal CGI
As for the babe in the ice-cube and Delenn's scene with the Prophets
- sorry, the Shadows; easy mistake to make... I felt cheated and let
down. A substantial additional plot element was needed at that point,
and the lack of it was sorely missed. And as for the Vorlons and
Shadows trotting merrily away beyond the rim with Lorien, like Pooh
and Piglet dancing off hand in hand into the sunset with Christopher
Robin... Nope. Sorry. Didn't buy that at all.
> It's resolution was classic Delenn.
Its resolution was sub-Trek; an idiotic piece of magic to resolve a
conflict for which the groundwork was badly laid, which was bustled
through at breakneck speed and which contributed nothing to the show
except some classic Lennier moments. In comparison with the wonderful
build-up to the Earth civil war and the way that storyline was so
skilfully handled, it was ludicrous.
The idea of a Minbari civil war was a good one and could have been
extremely effective had it been handled properly; rushed, botched and
badly resolved, it turned out to be a mistake and should've been cut,
thereby allowing more time for the conclusion of the Shadow War.
Compared with that, season 5 was an improvement. Aggravating though
Byron was, both the telepath and Centauri plotlines were necessary
developments from what had gone before, and both were resolved in a
fitting and satisfying way - in the case of the Centauri thread, brilliantly.
Jacob Corbin
> Incidentally... a pal of mine at school just loaned me the first two
> tapes of
> Neon Genesis Evangelion. This show has really impressed me... think
> Ultraman
> meets Ender's Game.
The first two tapes...of "NEON GENESIS EVANGELION"?
The first two tapes?
MWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA. You ain't seen *nuthin'* yet.
"ULTRAMAN meets ENDER'S GAME" doesn't _begin_ to describe "NGE." Think
more along the lines of E.E. "Doc" Smith meets Harlan Ellison and the
two of them are gang-raped by a mescaline-crazed Hunter S. Thompson
leading a pack of Borneo apes in heat.
I warn you, though...by the last tape, you will either think the series
is unalloyed genius or unmitigated garbage, depending on how much
exposure you have to the world outside Anime. Traditional
robots-and-schoolgirls Japanifans can't stand the show, for good reason
-- it makes a point of overturning every cliche in the book, and even
offers some trenchant criticism of Japanese culture. But people who've
been exposed to other stuff, like "THE PRISONER" and Umberto Eco's
"FOUCAULT'S PENDULUM", tend to appreciate its delectable trippiness.
Someone ought to talk JMS into producing an American version of the
show. He's had plenty of experience in alienating a large part of
fandom by refusing to do the easy or expected thing.
Reverend Jake
http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/shirley/272/
Tom Holt
The message <383C12F6...@york.ac.uk>
from swf102 <swf...@york.ac.uk> contains these words:
> Jaimie Winn wrote:
> >
> > Gharlane of Eddore wrote:
> > "any more is two words"
> >
> > Gharlane, if you're going to criticize someone, please get your facts
> > straight. According to both Webster's and The American Heritage
> > Dictionary "anymore" is ONE WORD.
> Not to be too picky, but there is no such word as "anymore" in the
> English language. There are, however, the two words "any" and "more"
> that are often used together. That's what the Oxford English Dictionary
> 2nd edition says as does the Cambridge University International
> Dictionary,
> to pick two at random.
All due respect, but Webster's takes precedence over the OED as far
as US usage is concerned.
Daryl Nash
> Brian Watson wrote:
> >Nathan Shafer wrote:
> >
> >> John W. Kennedy wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Nathan Shafer wrote:
> >> > > So far, I really haven't seen *anything* on TeeVee except Babylon5
> >> > > which had any discernible story arc, up to and including The Drex
> >> > > Files.
> >> >
> >> > Believe it or not, "Pokemon".
> >>
> >> That's it, I'm packin' for Aruba. If the world is going to end, I'm
> >> going to be someplace warm when it happens.
> >>
> >> And perhaps after. ;-)
> >
> >Don't react badly to this. It's not as if Pokemon is special in any manner,
> >it's just that the Japanese have had a love affair with the story arc for a
> >long time. Robotech, Sailor Moon, Digimon, Power Rangers, whatever,
> >whatever,
> >whatever. Name an Anime series and it almost certainly has a story arc to
> >it.
> >
>
> Incidentally... a pal of mine at school just loaned me the first two tapes of
> Neon Genesis Evangelion. This show has really impressed me... think Ultraman
> meets Ender's Game. The characters are all likable so far, and the action bits
> (while nothing I haven't seen before) ain't bad either. And that silver-haired
> girl, Rei (I *think* that's her name), has become my new role model, despite
> the fact that she's had maybe three lines of dialogue.
>
> Oh... and the opening credits have really hummable music, too.
>
> I'm going to watch the rest of this little series. It ain't great, but it sure
> beats the hell out of Voyager...
>
> Cassius' Quote of the Day:
> Misato Katsuragi: "Ah, air conditioning... man's triumph over nature..."
Heh. I've just recently laid my hands on the episodes I'd been missing of this
series. And while the science is wonky (and hell, if you're watching anime for
accurate science... ferchisake go read something), the story and style are right
at the peak of anime.
Just wait till you get to the last few episodes.
Daryl
Dave Platt
>> "any more is two words"
>>
>> Gharlane, if you're going to criticize someone, please get your facts
>> straight. According to both Webster's and The American Heritage
>> Dictionary "anymore" is ONE WORD.
>
>
>Not to be too picky, but there is no such word as "anymore" in the
>English language. There are, however, the two words "any" and "more"
>that are often used together. That's what the Oxford English Dictionary
>2nd edition says as does the Cambridge University International
>Dictionary, to pick two at random.
To complicate things a bit further: The Merriam-Webster Ninth New
Collegiate Dictionary (1984) does list "anymore" as a valid
construction in its own right. There's an extensive note under
"usage" which states that the "anymore" construction is more common
than "any more" in the 20th century, although both are valid.
This word seems to have two different interpretations. The more
common (and the one Gharlane is commenting on) is "any longer".
There's a second usage - "at the present time" or "now", as in "Hardly
a day passes without rain anymore." This second meaning has
significant regional use throughout the United States (said to be most
common in Midland settlement areas). "It has been noted at least
since the 19th century in England and may be of British dialectal
origin."
So - it might be fair to say that the "anymore" construction is fairly
common in American English, and perhaps in certain British dialects,
but perhaps not in "high" or "the king's / queen's" English.
Who was it who wrote that the English were a people divided by a
common language? Same holds for the English / American language
divide, I guess.
--
Dave Platt dpl...@radagast.org
Visit the Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior/
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!
Mark Maher
>
>The message <81einv$8as$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
> from "Mark Maher" <marka...@worldnet.att.net> contains these words:
>
>supposed to be a drama into a soapbox for some (usually stale & dead)
>'issue' always annoys the hell out of me - it's the main reason why
>so much of ST:TNG gives me a pain. Fortunately, JMS was (usually)
>above that sort of thing, and got on with telling the story and
>developing the characters.
>
>My beef with Franklin is that (a) Mr Biggs couldn't act his way out
>of a wet paper bag (b) the character was largely superfluous, which
>meant that extraneous bits of fluff had to be tacked on to keep him
>occupied - for example, the Franklin-gets-stabbed nonsense in Shadow
>Dancing. At a moment when the real drama is just starting to wind up
>and get very interesting indeed, wasting time on Franklin's cliche'd
>self-discovery nonsense was extremely annoying and intrusive.
>
>As a character, Franklin is pure Star Trek, and therefore out of
>place in a superior production like B5
I can't speak for Bigg's acting ability as this is the only role that I have
seen him in. I felt that he handled this one competently enough but that's my
opinion - you're certainly entitled to yours.
I can agree that some of the plot lines that he got involved with seemed a
stretch. I have always found it odd that in all of the Star Trek stuff as well
as Babylon 5 that the doctor would be a focal supporting character. What was it
the Franklin character said at the end of "Matters of Honor" - "Well since I'm
usually the last one to know anything around here, given that I'm stuck in
medlab all day..."
>Like Ezri on DS9, Lochley was an unfortunate necessity... Unlike
>Ezri, though, Lochley was an interesting and worthwhile character in
>her own right, and it's a pity there wasn't more scope to develop her
>in, for example, the direction hinted at in 'Day Of The Dead'.
Not enough time in the series go really work up the depth of character in one
season. I think they did an admirable job with the time that they had.
>I admire Scoggins as an actress (ah, if only she'd auditioned for
>Janeway...) but this wasn't her finest hour; bricks without straw,
>and all that. Another reason why there should have been a sixth season...
>
The greatest performer in the world can't make up for lousy writing. Well,
that's what happens when you don't even audition for the part until you're three
days into shooting and your Chosen Star takes a powder on you.
As for the "sixth season", I won't *even* go there. It's done with - deal with
it.
>With respect, no; it was a cop-out and an anticlimax, and darned near
>spoilt for me everything that had gone before (I started feeling
>uneasy with all that tick-tock drivel in "Whatever Happened To..?")
>JMS is a master if his art and can handle a vast array of subjects
>with consummate ease. Mysticism, however, ain't one of them.
I think a lot of people wanted the Great Big Epic Battle To Glorious Victory so
bad that when they didn't get it, it just pissed them off so bad that they
couldn't see their way through to the bigger picture. This is one of the biggest
points of contention in the storyline and the battle between those who hated it
and those who didn't has been fought relentlessly over and over again since the
moment it aired. We aren't going to solve it today. Another point where you have
an opinion that I happen to differ with.
>Equally sloppy was the sudden (non-)appearance of all those buckshee
>First Ones about two minutes before the start of the big punch-up. No
>need to bring them on at all; they contribute nothing beyond some
>rather dismal CGI
Nothing more than destroying the Vorlon Planet Killer on-scene, causing the
Vorlons to call in all their other ships, including the Planet Killer approacing
Centauri Prime. Nope, they didn't have any effect at all (yeah, right).
>As for the babe in the ice-cube and Delenn's scene with the Prophets
>- sorry, the Shadows; easy mistake to make... I felt cheated and let
>down. A substantial additional plot element was needed at that point,
>and the lack of it was sorely missed. And as for the Vorlons and
>Shadows trotting merrily away beyond the rim with Lorien, like Pooh
>and Piglet dancing off hand in hand into the sunset with Christopher
>Robin... Nope. Sorry. Didn't buy that at all.
>
See above.
>> It's resolution was classic Delenn.
>
>Its resolution was sub-Trek; an idiotic piece of magic to resolve a
>conflict for which the groundwork was badly laid, which was bustled
>through at breakneck speed and which contributed nothing to the show
>except some classic Lennier moments. In comparison with the wonderful
>build-up to the Earth civil war and the way that storyline was so
>skilfully handled, it was ludicrous.
>
>The idea of a Minbari civil war was a good one and could have been
>extremely effective had it been handled properly; rushed, botched and
>badly resolved, it turned out to be a mistake and should've been cut,
>thereby allowing more time for the conclusion of the Shadow War.
I think that jms gave the Minbari the short end when it came to their civil war.
I do agree that the resolution of the Minbari War was hastily done and given
minimal time. We needed to understand better the major points of contention
between the Warrior and Religious caste, and to see the catalyst event that
triggered the fighting and the war. I think that had jms been given his renewal
when he asked for it, we might have seen it. Besides, let's face it, we're human
and we are going to naturally be inclined to be more interested in the Earth
Civil War than the Minbari one. If jms had to cut one for time, which one do you
think he'd choose?
>Compared with that, season 5 was an improvement. Aggravating though
>Byron was, both the telepath and Centauri plotlines were necessary
>developments from what had gone before, and both were resolved in a
>fitting and satisfying way - in the case of the Centauri thread, brilliantly.
I have to agree with you that the Telepath and Centauri threads were given
decent runs. Especially in light of the fact that we get a much greater telling
of the story of Bester in the novels. Given what happened to Londo, I'm sure
there are moments when he wishes that the Vorlons had just taken them out when
they had the shot.
__!_!__
Gizmo
Mark Maher
>Jaimie Winn wrote:
>
>Not to be too picky, but there is no such word as "anymore" in the
>English language. There are, however, the two words "any" and "more"
>that are often used together. That's what the Oxford English Dictionary
>2nd edition says as does the Cambridge University International
>Dictionary,
>to pick two at random.
>
I guess it's just a matter of which dictionary you choose. My Pocket Edition of
the Merriam-Webster Dictionary, 15th printing 1977, does list "anymore." So It
would seem does the dictionary used by originator of that particular post. What
I find disconcerting wasn't GoE's spell checking, but his intensity. I don't
think that I've read a posting so acrid and filled with black savage wit since I
read "Alfred Bester"s last book review. Well, I guess that he goes by the motto:
"Why use a .22 when a tactical nuke will do the job?"
__!_!__
Gizmo
Shaz
"Dave Platt" <dpl...@radagast.org> wrote in message
news:s3p9es...@corp.supernews.com...
> >> Gharlane of Eddore wrote:
> >> "any more is two words"
> >>
> common language? Same holds for the English / American language
> divide, I guess.
England and America, two countries divided by a common tongue. I have a
feeling that was Bernard Shaw.
Shaz
Shaz
"Tom Holt" <lemmi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:199911242...@zetnet.co.uk...
>
> The message <81einv$8as$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
> from "Mark Maher" <marka...@worldnet.att.net> contains these words:
way that
> > the conflict could be ended that left our protagonists alive. Sheridan
was
> > right, they couldn't be expected to prevail militarily against both the
Vorlons
> > and the Shadows. That was clearly demonstrated when the Shadow planet
killer
> > surrounded the fleet and began to shoot at the White Star II.
>
> spoilt for me everything that had gone before (I started feeling
> uneasy with all that tick-tock drivel in "Whatever Happened To..?")
> JMS is a master if his art and can handle a vast array of subjects
> with consummate ease. Mysticism, however, ain't one of them.
I keep hearing this, but I never hear the alternative, so could you
enlighten me? If they weren't going to talk their way out of it (as they
did) -- proving they were willing to die rather than carry on with this
charade any longer -- and there was no way in hell they could shoot their
way out of it without being blown to bits (while at the same time proving
they hadn't learned anything since they were using the same methods as the
Vorlons and the Shadows), how the hell WERE they supposed to stop the
carnage of two 'giants in the playground' who were killing everyone who got
underfoot? I'll accept any reasonable argument here, but so far I've not
heard one.
> Equally sloppy was the sudden (non-)appearance of all those buckshee
> First Ones about two minutes before the start of the big punch-up. No
> need to bring them on at all; they contribute nothing beyond some
> rather dismal CGI
I think you missed the point. Lorien wanted them there so they'd LEAVE at
the end. Yes, they were useful to get the Vorlon Planet-killer shut down bef
ore it wiped out a few billion people, but apart from bolstering Sheridan
enough to believe he had some leverage to get the two sides to shut up and
listen for a change (and it sure did get the Vorlon's attention), they were
primarily rounded up so they could be shunted out.
Lorien even said as much to Ivanova.
> As for the babe in the ice-cube and Delenn's scene with the Prophets
> - sorry, the Shadows; easy mistake to make... I felt cheated and let
> down. A substantial additional plot element was needed at that point,
Such as?
> and the lack of it was sorely missed. And as for the Vorlons and
> Shadows trotting merrily away beyond the rim with Lorien, like Pooh
> and Piglet dancing off hand in hand into the sunset with Christopher
> Robin... Nope. Sorry. Didn't buy that at all.
As above. PLEASE give me an alternative. Both the Vorlons and the Shadows
are so wrapped up in their self-righteous belief that they KNOW what's right
for us, they've forgotten why this whole shebang got started, and instead of
helping ANYONE they're just killing everyone, and at that rate they'd keep
on killing until there was no one left. Pretty pointless for beings who
considered themselves superior enough to tell the rest of us how to live our
lives. As I see it Sheridan either has to get them to go away permanently,
or he has to convince them to 'play nicely' and quit hurting everyone in
their 'games'. There is no evidence that they'd be able or willing to take
the latter course. It was all or nothing, so Sheridan and Delenn AND THE
REST OF THE ARMY OF LIGHT forced them to go. The arguments between the ice
woman and Sheridan and the shadow-people and Delenn were purely expository,
not just for the sake of those fans who haven't got clued in yet, but for
the sake of all those members of the AoL who are listening in on the
'Lorien' bandwidth and don't know what WE, the audience, know as a result of
seeing the show to that point. Once they've heard it they are willing to die
rather than let it carry on, and prove as much by throwing themselves in
front of the missiles. It's not Sheridan or Delenn's arguments that send the
Shadows and the Vorlons away. It's the fact that the others will not listen
or play these games any more and prove it with their lives. Once that's been
done what are the Shadows and Vorlons going to do? Sit around in the
background twiddling their thumbs and nodding sagely at us while we carry
on? Several millennia of getting involved is a hard habit to break. Sooner
or later they'd want to butt in and the whole thing would start all over
again.
Once again we were drawn back to probably the key element in Babylon 5, the
importance of the willingness to sacrifice oneself for the greater good.
It's the third principle of sentient life Draal gives us; the final
conclusion to Sebastian's games; Sinclair's act (I'd say going back a
thousand years and leaving all those you care for behind (barring, maybe,
Catherine, but that's debateable) is a sacrifice far greater than that of
life for that character, since he was so keen on finding something worth
dying for anyway); Sheridan's act (another one with a death wish, until he
gets it and realises he wants to live!); Kosh Naranek's act, and Delenn's
willing act (even if she doesn't actually do it in the end because Neroon
stops her). All the way through this story this point has been emphasised.
How is it NOT an apropriate conclusion to the Shadow War?
> > It's resolution was classic Delenn.
>
> Its resolution was sub-Trek; an idiotic piece of magic to resolve a
> conflict for which the groundwork was badly laid, which was bustled
> through at breakneck speed and which contributed nothing to the show
> except some classic Lennier moments. In comparison with the wonderful
> build-up to the Earth civil war and the way that storyline was so
> skilfully handled, it was ludicrous.
I agree with the Earth civil war comments, but I think the Minbari stuff was
handled better than you do. It fitted perfectly with Delenn's repeated
assertion that she was willing to sacrifice herself for the greater good.
Not just words, she really means it, no matter how painful that death might
be. And she did it by playing Shakiri at his own game, proving she was more
willing to play by the old rules than he was, even though he'd insisted on
it in the first place. She can play hard ball if that's what he wants, but
she's arguing there's a better way. If the only way to make him and others
see that is to die in their ancient wheel then so be it.
Second it gets her out from under the shadow of Sheridan. Whether I (or
anyone else) like it or not, the fact is when those two are together --
unless he's in some way incapacitated -- Delenn's power is reduced. She said
he needed to be apart from her to 'be dangerous' but the fact is they BOTH
need to be apart to be dangerous, and either one alone is not something I'd
like to run into when they're angry. Delenn is your absolutely classic
mythological heroine and, as such, tends to defer to the male when he's
around and strong. It was great to be reminded of the Delenn who told
Clark's forces to 'BE somewhere else', and the one who could be manipulative
and sneaky when occasion demanded it.
> The idea of a Minbari civil war was a good one and could have been
> extremely effective had it been handled properly; rushed, botched and
> badly resolved, it turned out to be a mistake and should've been cut,
> thereby allowing more time for the conclusion of the Shadow War.
Again, let's hear your version of how it should have been resolved, then.
I think the point was to remind us that things don't happen in isolation.
The Minbari, who had always been considered rather more 'advanced' than
everyone else who wasn't a First One (culturally, historically,
technologically etc.) prove they can be as barbaric as the rest of us even
now (we already knew they could be barbaric from the Earth Minbari War).
Nevertheless, there ARE some of them who can rise above it, and it can be
religious caste (Delenn and Lennier) or warrior caste (Neroon). And both
those castes can be equally stupid (witness the religious caste aboard
Delenn's ship completely misconstruing her intentions and reacting in the
worst way possible for all concerned. Witness Shakiri's neanderthal
behaviour)). The Shadow war held the simmering disaster of the Minbari caste
breakdown in check, but once that cause that was holding them together had
been dissolved the rest HAD to be resolved. If Joe HADN'T resolved it we'd
all be screaming for his blood! I don't see it was botched. Hurried,
possibly, but given at that point Joe didn't know if he'd have season 5 I
don't see he had much choice.
>
> Compared with that, season 5 was an improvement. Aggravating though
> Byron was, both the telepath and Centauri plotlines were necessary
> developments from what had gone before, and both were resolved in a
> fitting and satisfying way - in the case of the Centauri thread,
brilliantly.
>
The Centauri Thread, yes, though there's so much more of it that we could
have heard. The Telepath thread not quite so much. I think part of the
problem there was that Byron wasn't introduced early enough. Had he appeared
in Season 4 doing *something* (like helping out against the Shadow vessels)
I *might* have had more sympathy for him. As it was I never could get
worried about or feel any sympathy for him or his telepaths. In fact, I felt
so little sympathy I was rooting for Bester and that, given I love the Lyta
character, is a real shame.
Just my opinion, of course. Still, I'd like to hear your alternative
versions, please, of the points above.
Shaz
Ian Galbraith
[snip]
:The idea of a Minbari civil war was a good one and could have been
:extremely effective had it been handled properly; rushed, botched and
:badly resolved, it turned out to be a mistake and should've been cut,
:thereby allowing more time for the conclusion of the Shadow War.
Good point, it was quite superfluous, the Minbari didn't necessarily have
to be heading for a civil war.
:Compared with that, season 5 was an improvement. Aggravating though
:Byron was, both the telepath and Centauri plotlines were necessary
:developments from what had gone before, and both were resolved in a
:fitting and satisfying way - in the case of the Centauri thread, brilliantly.
I agree the Byron plotline was resolved satisfactorily, but why was it
necessary? IMHO it didn't add much to the telepath storyline.
Diane K De
>Date: Sun, 21 November 1999 11:10 PM EST
>Message-id: <383758EA...@swbell.net>
>
>Jim Royal wrote:
>
>> Still, it is interesting. I can only hope that Carter's next idea has
>> stronger legs than Harsh Realm...
>
> And maybe JMS can teach Carter the subtle yet vitally important
>difference between "homage" and "outright theft." (for the uninitiated:
>when B5 works a riff on Miller's "Canticle for Leibowitz" into
>continuity, it's homage; when Carter fails to credit the comic writers
>who came up with "Harsh Realm", it's plagiarism).
>
> Reverend Jake
>
The credit issue is not the same as "theft". The writers of the comic did get
paid for the acquisition of the Harsh Realm concept and name. The problem they
had was being acknowledged in the credits.
When you use the word "theft", you give the impression that Carter took the
concept without paying for it. That is not the case.
DD
Iain Rae
> On 24 Nov 1999 18:32:55 -0700, Tom Holt wrote:
> [snip]
> :The idea of a Minbari civil war was a good one and could have been
> :extremely effective had it been handled properly; rushed, botched and
> :badly resolved, it turned out to be a mistake and should've been cut,
> :thereby allowing more time for the conclusion of the Shadow War.
> Good point, it was quite superfluous, the Minbari didn't necessarily have
> to be heading for a civil war.
Except that the divisions between the Warrior and religeous Caste has been
a running thread all the way through the series since Deathwalker and
appears in the timeline to go as far back as the events in "In the beginning"
There has to be a resolution to this conflict as the Minbari have been
held together for 1000 years by the prophecy of Valen and what he set up,
once the reason for all that he has built (the Grey Council, the rangers etc)
has gone (the passing of the shadpws) then the minbari have no direction,
worse the council is not balanced and is leaderless. in such circumstances
things can fall apart in a matter of days, hours even. Look at the Putch
which ousted Gorbachov, that looks like a particularly bad bit of scripting
to me :)
> :Compared with that, season 5 was an improvement. Aggravating though
> :Byron was, both the telepath and Centauri plotlines were necessary
> :developments from what had gone before, and both were resolved in a
> :fitting and satisfying way - in the case of the Centauri thread, brilliantly.
> I agree the Byron plotline was resolved satisfactorily, but why was it
> necessary? IMHO it didn't add much to the telepath storyline.
The rogue telepaths need something to rally round, before Byron they were
simply fleeing for their lives and trying to eke out a life. Byrons death
gives them something tangible to fight for. A probably not very good
parallel would be the execution of William Wallace, his death (more the
manner of it was handled) gave Bruce enough of a power base to risk trying
for the Scottish throne.
Sham Gardner
: "Tom Holt" <lemmi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote in message
I don't have much of a problem with ItF and generally I don't have a
problem with the way the resolution to the Shadow War was handled at all.
What I do think is that it came too easily. Aside from whatever losses the
fleet incurred there was no price for ending the war. What would have
improved it for me is if one of the "major" races' homeworlds had had to be
sacrificed for the "greater good" of ending the war.
Tammy Smith
until I was corrected by a teacher in high school.
Tammy
Jaimie Winn
edition) and The American Heritage Dictionary (1983 ed.) contain the
word "Anymore" (one word) in them. However my 1992 ed. of Webster's has
"any more" (two words). I ran it through a spell check and "anymore"
comes up as a wrong word. Perhaps they changed it between 1984 and
1992? :)
I apologize for my mistake.
Tom Holt
The message <81iat5$pf4$1...@lure.pipex.net>
from "Shaz" <hyp...@Dial.pipex.com> contains these words:
> I keep hearing this, but I never hear the alternative, so could you
> enlighten me? If they weren't going to talk their way out of it (as they
> did) -- proving they were willing to die rather than carry on with this
> charade any longer -- and there was no way in hell they could shoot their
> way out of it without being blown to bits (while at the same time proving
> they hadn't learned anything since they were using the same methods as the
> Vorlons and the Shadows), how the hell WERE they supposed to stop the
> carnage of two 'giants in the playground' who were killing everyone who got
> underfoot?
Agreed, in part. Resolving the conflict by friendly persuasion rather
than force of arms was the logical way for the story to go. I just
feel that it was handled very badly - lame, unconvincing and silly.
I'm not saying ti shouldn't have been done this way; just that it
should've been done a helluva lot *better*
> > Equally sloppy was the sudden (non-)appearance of all those buckshee
> > First Ones about two minutes before the start of the big punch-up. No
> > need to bring them on at all; they contribute nothing beyond some
> > rather dismal CGI
> I think you missed the point. Lorien wanted them there so they'd LEAVE at
> the end.
That would make sense; but that point, if it was in JMS' mind when he
was writing it, certainly didn't come across; at least, not to me. If
that was the point of having them there, someone should have
mentioned it, just so we'd know.
> > As for the babe in the ice-cube and Delenn's scene with the Prophets
> > - sorry, the Shadows; easy mistake to make... I felt cheated and let
> > down. A substantial additional plot element was needed at that point,
> Such as?
I dunno, I wasn't writing the damn scripts. Just because I can't
offhand suggest how the storyline should have been strengthened at
that point doesn't refute the criticism that it needed strengthening
> > and the lack of it was sorely missed. And as for the Vorlons and
> > Shadows trotting merrily away beyond the rim with Lorien, like Pooh
> > and Piglet dancing off hand in hand into the sunset with Christopher
> > Robin... Nope. Sorry. Didn't buy that at all.
> As above. PLEASE give me an alternative. Both the Vorlons and the Shadows
> are so wrapped up in their self-righteous belief that they KNOW what's right
> for us, they've forgotten why this whole shebang got started, and instead of
> helping ANYONE they're just killing everyone, and at that rate they'd keep
> on killing until there was no one left.
Again, my beef isn't so much with the idea as with the slapdash and
downright silly way in which it was done.
> > The idea of a Minbari civil war was a good one and could have been
> > extremely effective had it been handled properly; rushed, botched and
> > badly resolved, it turned out to be a mistake and should've been cut,
> > thereby allowing more time for the conclusion of the Shadow War.
> Again, let's hear your version of how it should have been resolved, then.
Not my job to improve it after the event; see above
> The Shadow war held the simmering disaster of the Minbari caste
> breakdown in check, but once that cause that was holding them together had
> been dissolved the rest HAD to be resolved. If Joe HADN'T resolved it we'd
> all be screaming for his blood! I don't see it was botched. Hurried,
> possibly, but given at that point Joe didn't know if he'd have season 5 I
> don't see he had much choice.
I agree that JMS isn't entirely to blame for the botched job, and I'm
sure that if he hadn't been under pressure from the idiot suits, he'd
have made a far better job of what could have been an interesting and
valuable storyline.
> >
> > Compared with that, season 5 was an improvement. Aggravating though
> > Byron was, both the telepath and Centauri plotlines were necessary
> > developments from what had gone before, and both were resolved in a
> > fitting and satisfying way - in the case of the Centauri thread,
> brilliantly.
> >
> The Centauri Thread, yes, though there's so much more of it that we could
> have heard. The Telepath thread not quite so much. I think part of the
> problem there was that Byron wasn't introduced early enough.
The problem was that Byron was introduced at all. With a stronger,
more charismatic, less bloody irritating telepath leader, or maybe
even with a better actor (a sentient life-form, say) playing the part
as written, the thread would probably have been extremely effective.
As noted before, it certainly wasn't the worst thing in B5 as it was.
> Still, I'd like to hear your alternative
> versions, please, of the points above.
General point. I don't have to be a surgeon to diagnose a broken arm,
nor do I need to be able to set a broken arm before I'm entitled to
say it's broken.
Tom Holt
The message <81i9eb$nuv$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
from "Mark Maher" <marka...@worldnet.att.net> contains these words:
> +AD4-Equally sloppy was the sudden (non-)appearance of all those buckshee
> +AD4-First Ones about two minutes before the start of the big punch-up. No
> +AD4-need to bring them on at all+ADs- they contribute nothing beyond some
> +AD4-rather dismal CGI
> Nothing more than destroying the Vorlon Planet Killer on-scene, causing the
> Vorlons to call in all their other ships, including the Planet Killer approacing
> Centauri Prime. Nope, they didn't have any effect at all (yeah, right).
All due respect, but... Destroying the planet-killer didn't actually
solve anything vis a vis the battle; there were still countless
Vorlon warships to deal with, not to mention the entire Shadow fleet.
If the whole idea was that the battle couldn't be won by force of
arms, what did the destruction of the planet-killer contribute apart
from some admittedly zippy CGI?
Unless the First Ones were invincible and capable of annihilating
both the Vorlons and the Shadows (mercifully they weren't - that
*would* have been a cop-out) they couldn't really have affected the
outcome of the battle which, had it been fought out, must have ended
in the Army of Light getting swatted like a bug.
The whole business with the First Ones could have been left out
without any damage to the development of the story; it'd have spared
us a pointless red herring and increased the dramatic tension
Tom Holt
The message <383db16f...@news.latrobe.edu.au>
from igalb...@ozonline.com.au (Ian Galbraith) contains these words:
> I agree the Byron plotline was resolved satisfactorily, but why was it
> necessary? IMHO it didn't add much to the telepath storyline.
I think it was necessary, both to answer the question "what became of
the teeps wehn they were no longer needed as weapons of war?" and to
round off the development of Lyta - IMHO, after Londo the most
interesting character development in the series
Mark Maher
>
>The message <81i9eb$nuv$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
>solve anything vis a vis the battle; there were still countless
>Vorlon warships to deal with, not to mention the entire Shadow fleet.
>If the whole idea was that the battle couldn't be won by force of
>arms, what did the destruction of the planet-killer contribute apart
>from some admittedly zippy CGI?
>
>Unless the First Ones were invincible and capable of annihilating
>both the Vorlons and the Shadows (mercifully they weren't - that
>*would* have been a cop-out) they couldn't really have affected the
>outcome of the battle which, had it been fought out, must have ended
>in the Army of Light getting swatted like a bug.
>
>The whole business with the First Ones could have been left out
>without any damage to the development of the story; it'd have spared
>us a pointless red herring and increased the dramatic tension
Believe what you will...
__!_!__
Gizmo
Mark Maher
<23764-38...@storefull-145.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
I don't think it's a mistake on your part so much as it is an attempt by the
various parties involved to "globalize" the use of English by attempting to
homogenize the language into one single standard. I suppose it's an attempt to
set it's use as the standard language of the Internet just as English is the
standard language of international aviation as set by ICAO. While I'm all for
standards, I also believe that diversity is something to be valued. So there are
a few differences in the written use of English. I can get by with that as long
as we don't start killing each other for the sake of how we spell. Another of
the messages that jms was trying to get across in both Babylon 5 and Crusade.
__!_!__
Gizmo
Brian Watson
> The message <81i9eb$nuv$1...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>
> from "Mark Maher" <marka...@worldnet.att.net> contains these words:
>
> > +AD4-Equally sloppy was the sudden (non-)appearance of all those buckshee
> > +AD4-First Ones about two minutes before the start of the big punch-up. No
> > +AD4-need to bring them on at all+ADs- they contribute nothing beyond some
> > +AD4-rather dismal CGI
>
> > Nothing more than destroying the Vorlon Planet Killer on-scene, causing the
> > Vorlons to call in all their other ships, including the Planet Killer approacing
> > Centauri Prime. Nope, they didn't have any effect at all (yeah, right).
>
> All due respect, but... Destroying the planet-killer didn't actually
> solve anything vis a vis the battle; there were still countless
> Vorlon warships to deal with, not to mention the entire Shadow fleet.
> If the whole idea was that the battle couldn't be won by force of
> arms, what did the destruction of the planet-killer contribute apart
> from some admittedly zippy CGI?
It demonstrated the conviction of the Interstellar Alliance (at least in it's
protoform) against allowing the First Ones to interfere in their development any
longer.
> Unless the First Ones were invincible and capable of annihilating
> both the Vorlons and the Shadows (mercifully they weren't - that
> *would* have been a cop-out) they couldn't really have affected the
> outcome of the battle which, had it been fought out, must have ended
> in the Army of Light getting swatted like a bug.
>
> The whole business with the First Ones could have been left out
> without any damage to the development of the story; it'd have spared
> us a pointless red herring and increased the dramatic tension
No, it had to have been made CLEAR by Lorien and the others that the First Ones were
GONE after the battle there. That there were no more First Ones to interfere in the
younger race's development.
Pelzo63
>What would have
>improved it for me is if one of the "major" races' homeworlds had had to >be
>sacrificed for the "greater good" of ending the war.
it appears someone missed Delenn telling G'Kar that they could have saved narn,
but it was for the "greater good". or was that not near enough to the end of
the war for you? i can see how a year and a half from the end of the war, in a
war that's lasted for a thousand years, is not all that near the end.
of course, billions on the "minor" worlds might disagree, let's ask them, oh
wait, they're dead.
---Chris AOL/AIM--pelzo63
http://members.aol.com/pelzo63/welcome.html
He Conquered the desktop with the iMac, he conquered the laptop with the iBook,
next victim, the box office! Toy Story 2, from PIXAR.
Ian Galbraith
says...
> > :The idea of a Minbari civil war was a good one and could have been
> > :extremely effective had it been handled properly; rushed, botched and
> > :badly resolved, it turned out to be a mistake and should've been cut,
> > :thereby allowing more time for the conclusion of the Shadow War.
> > Good point, it was quite superfluous, the Minbari didn't necessarily have
> > to be heading for a civil war.
> Except that the divisions between the Warrior and religeous Caste has been
> a running thread all the way through the series since Deathwalker and
> appears in the timeline to go as far back as the events in "In the beginning"
> There has to be a resolution to this conflict as the Minbari have been
I understand that but there was no need for full scale revolution
necessarily. A resolution could have been provided in one episode rather
than what we saw. Or it could have been saved for the 5th season.
[snip]
> > I agree the Byron plotline was resolved satisfactorily, but why was it
> > necessary? IMHO it didn't add much to the telepath storyline.
> The rogue telepaths need something to rally round, before Byron they were
> simply fleeing for their lives and trying to eke out a life. Byrons death
> gives them something tangible to fight for. A probably not very good
> parallel would be the execution of William Wallace, his death (more the
> manner of it was handled) gave Bruce enough of a power base to risk trying
> for the Scottish throne.
That doesn't seem to be necessary within the B5 story.
Ian Galbraith
says...
>
> The message <383db16f...@news.latrobe.edu.au>
> from igalb...@ozonline.com.au (Ian Galbraith) contains these words:
> > necessary? IMHO it didn't add much to the telepath storyline.
> the teeps wehn they were no longer needed as weapons of war?" and to
> round off the development of Lyta -
Sure, but I regard those as relatively minor parts of the series. It
could have been provided in fewer episodes.
> IMHO, after Londo the most
> interesting character development in the series
Moreso than G'Kar?
Jim Royal
<lemmi...@zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> My beef with Franklin is that (a) Mr Biggs couldn't act his way out
> of a wet paper bag (b) the character was largely superfluous, which
> meant that extraneous bits of fluff had to be tacked on to keep him
> occupied - for example, the Franklin-gets-stabbed nonsense in Shadow
> Dancing. At a moment when the real drama is just starting to wind up
> and get very interesting indeed, wasting time on Franklin's cliche'd
> self-discovery nonsense was extremely annoying and intrusive.
>
> As a character, Franklin is pure Star Trek, and therefore out of
> place in a superior production like B5
Is it possible that your annoyance with Franklin (comments about Bigg's
acting aside, which which I disagree) arises from that fact that he was
outside the chain of command? He didn't have much opportunity to make
the Big Decisions, and his role was not related to either the Shadow
War or the Earth civil war. That you enjoyed Lochly's character more
(a character who was criticized by many others as superfluous) supports
this idea.
I enjoyed both characters. Lochley was more of a mover and shaker,
while Franklin was a perpetual foil for everyone else. You need both
types of characters to round out a show. But Franklin was definitely
not a Deanna Troi.
Jim Royal
jimr...@total.net
Pelzo63
>All due respect, but... Destroying the planet-killer didn't actually
>solve anything vis a vis the battle; there were still countless
>Vorlon warships to deal with, not to mention the entire Shadow fleet.
>If the whole idea was that the battle couldn't be won by force of
>arms, what did the destruction of the planet-killer contribute apart
>from some admittedly zippy CGI?
well, firstly, don't discount the effectiveness of Zippy CGI ;-)
Now, in all seriousness, ok...partial seriousness....
the "First Ones" had to be there, not for reasons of battle, but to show the
vorlons and shadows several things. one of those was that this wasn't "just a
bunch of kids who don't understand". it was in effect, gettin your parents
brother's and sisters to say "hey! back off! can't you see that you 2 bickering
is hurting the kids?!" before they could speak though, someone had to wrestle
the "parents" to the ground and stop them from fighting, the "kids" were only
tugging at their shirt-tails by shooting out a few fighters. how many people
stop fighting when their shirt gets ripped? the first ones had to take out the
planet killer so that the vorlons and shadows would take notice. this is the
purpose they served "vis a vis the battle"
<snip>
>The whole business with the First Ones could have been left out
>without any damage to the development of the story; it'd have spared
>us a pointless red herring and increased the dramatic tension
the further purpose they served was that they had to be there because they ALL
had to go "beyond the rim". Lorien was trying to maakes will be your own, as
will all success."
----Chris AOL/AIM--pelzo63
http://members.aol.com/pelzo63/welcome.html
Quick trivia! how many Dallas Conboys have missed games due to Rugburn Surgery?
Pelzo63
>The rogue telepaths need something to rally round, before Byron they >were
>simply fleeing for their lives and trying to eke out a life. Byrons death
>gives them something tangible to fight for. A probably not very good
>parallel would be the execution of William Wallace, his death (more the
>manner of it was handled) gave Bruce enough of a power base to risk >trying
>for the Scottish throne.
except of course, both were completely opposite archetypes. unless Byron
painted his face and killed a bunch of psi-bobbies when we weren't looking ;-)
funny how that works though, you spend your life teaching pacifism, and then
you die, and the person closest to you nukes everyone. of course, you spend
your life leading a war, and the same thign happens when you die. that's why i
wanna spend my life folowing, then noone will kill in my name! <g>
---Chris AOL/AIM--pelzo63
http://members.aol.com/pelzo63/welcome.html
go to www.google.com, type in the search phrase "what is more evil than satan
himself?" and note which site is listed first :-)
DANIEL MORRIS
> I understand that but there was no need for full scale revolution
> necessarily. A resolution could have been provided in one episode rather
> than what we saw. Or it could have been saved for the 5th season.
Keep in mind that at the point that this story is being told, JMS has no
idea IF there will be a fifth season...
Danny
Tom Holt
The message <19991125190646...@ng-cp1.aol.com>
from pel...@aol.com (Pelzo63) contains these words:
> the "First Ones" had to be there, not for reasons of battle, but to show the
> vorlons and shadows several things. one of those was that this wasn't "just a
> bunch of kids who don't understand". it was in effect, gettin your parents
> brother's and sisters to say "hey! back off! can't you see that you 2 bickering
> is hurting the kids?!" before they could speak though, someone had to wrestle
> the "parents" to the ground and stop them from fighting, the "kids" were only
> tugging at their shirt-tails by shooting out a few fighters.
If that's what was in JMS' mind, he didn't get it across very well.
Now, if Lorien had made this point, or better still if one of these
nebulous First Ones had appeared on screen and said it; or if
Sheridan had reflected on it afterwards, anything like that, I'd be
more willing to accept it as something other than an ingenious
construct assembled by a loyal fan to cover a mistake.
Put it another way; I like your version rather better than the one
that was actually shown...
Tom Holt
The message <MPG.12a89b43...@news.latrobe.edu.au>
from igalb...@ozonline.com.au (Ian Galbraith) contains these words:
> > IMHO, after Londo the most
> > interesting character development in the series
>
> Moreso than G'Kar?
Strangely, yes; I liked the idea that here was somebody who was
essential to victory in both wars, who got treated extremely badly by
both the bad guys and the good guys, who started off shallow and
selfish and found something to believe in - but who didn't end up
better, just flawed in a different way... G' Kar may have had more
than his fair share of the memorable lines and scenes, and may have
been played by the second best actor in the cast; but the character's
development, from warmongering zealot to saint, was fairly ordinary &
predictable. Lyta was much more interesting. In a sense, because she
never finds a way of rising above her 'destiny' as a weapon to be
used by one faction or another, she comes across as rather more alien
than any of the guys in funny makeup. Nice piece of work, IMHO.
The Nuclear Marine
No, I think the more appropriate: England and America, two countries
divided by the Atlantic Ocean
- Eddie Izzard
============================
Sandra Bursey
am not repeating or riling things up by poking in here. Space Above and
Beyond may not be the greatest show on earth but you hit on what Morgan and
Wong do that is character. My first glimpse of the show I didn't do much
for me but I gave it another try because I am a M&W fan and in my first full
episode I found myself really caring for the character in focus of it. That
was only a few months ago so I haven't seen the whole show but I have seen
enough to say that if you give it a chance you will find despite certain
flaws it has some very good things about it too. It's one of those show
that can seem very stupid on the surface hey I thought that about B5 once
upon a time but after some raving from a friend I tried more than 2 minutes
and came to realized I was the stupid one. :) That's not to say SAAB
measures up to B5 just they are both more than what they appear on the
surface.
--
Take Care,
Sandra
"Nothing happens in contradiction of nature only in contradiction to what we
know of it." - Scully, Herrenvolk
"But the heart does not recognize boundaries on a map, or wars, or political
policies. The heart does as the heart does." - Delenn, The Illusion of
Truth, Babylon 5
Mark Maher <marka...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:814t8b$mhv$1...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net...
> Jeff Walther wrote in message
> <01bf32cc$183aff20$2072...@userID.tnrcc.state.tx.us>...
> >
> >
> >Derek Beebe <MrLi...@aol.com> wrote in article
> ><38353C52...@aol.com>...
> >
> >> show. Have you guys ever seen Space: Above and Beyond? Awsome show.
> >
> >I guess it takes all kinds. S:A&B was pure dreck in my opinion. I can't
> >think of a single redeeming feature of the show.
> >
> Well, it was crude, the dialogue sometimes absurd, and the story was
forced at
> times, sure. But I got past it because it connected to me at a gut level
that's
> hard to explain. For all of it's weaknesses, it still got me involved with
the
> characters and I think that any show that can do that is worth something.
That's
> what turned me away from ST:Vger. I couldn't relate to most of the
characters in
> any real sense.
>
> __!_!__
> Gizmo
>
>
Pelzo63
>If that's what was in JMS' mind, he didn't get it across very well.
>Now, if Lorien had made this point, or better still if one of these
>nebulous First Ones had appeared on screen and said it; or if
>Sheridan had reflected on it afterwards, anything like that,
well, i suppose sheridan saying "we need to do soemthing to get their
attention, which nukes are in their area?" following that with "call in the
first ones" when it appeared that the nukes didn't disrupt them very much. add
that to the little part about the theme of the first half of the episode being
an attempt to get their attention, after devising the plan in the end of the
previous episode. remember "we need to form a crucible where we can force out
the truth"? a key part in that quote being "truth" not "a winner". and then
there was that line by sheridan "now that we have your attention". but i
guess this wasn't enough, for one episode, yes, we should have had a sheridan
speech;
"this is our plan army of light, we're going to trick the shadows and vorlons
into being in the same system. after that, they're gonna go right after each
other, so we'll have to do something to get their attention, we'll nuke them,
if that doesn't work, we'll call in the first ones to blow a few of their
bigger ships up. once we have their attention, we can yell at them, yes,
that's our plan"
>I'd be
>more willing to accept it as something other than an ingenious
>construct assembled by a loyal fan to cover a mistake.
about as many have stated that they do not feel it was a mistake.
>Put it another way; I like your version rather better than the one
>that was actually shown...
if i truly am that good of a writer, then i would like my show, and paychck,
please :-) oh, wait, jms wrote it, i didn't, darn.
---Chris AOL/AIM--pelzo63
http://members.aol.com/pelzo63/welcome.html
i'm much better at writing poetry than prose anyways...