ATTN JMS: How do you feel TV show creators should treat fans?
Chris Huston
etc, whether it's for Crusade or Babylon 5 you usually tell it like it
is. In the past you've said certain upcoming episodes would be huge or
monumental, and they usually always were, or you'd hint at things which
would happen in the future, which lo and behold, did happen.
However, creators such as Chris Carter (of X-FILES fame) are notorious
for "teasing" fans and then either not delivering or deliver something
totally different altogether, sometimes being more disappointing than
not. Or saying "we'll never do this on our show" and then a season or
two later, do it.
How do you feel about this? Do you think this way of "teasing" the fans
is good or would you rather be upfront and truthful? And are your fans
important enough to you that you know if you cry "Wolf!" too many times
they won't believe/respect you?
Thanks for your time.
--CH
(Canadian B5 fan)
Cassius81
>I've noticed that most of the time when you describe an upcoming event,
>etc, whether it's for Crusade or Babylon 5 you usually tell it like it
>is. In the past you've said certain upcoming episodes would be huge or
>monumental, and they usually always were, or you'd hint at things which
>would happen in the future, which lo and behold, did happen.
Here's something from the Lurker's Guide page on "Sleeping in Light", written
by Joe:
<<"But seriously, what kind of responses do you expect to see in this newsgroup
the week following the last episode?"
In a way you're kind of asking the wrong person, as I'm inside the fishbowl and
can't see the show the way anyone outside can see it. The only gauge I have is
the reaction the script got around the stage when people on the crew and cast
read it. (With a note attached explaining the possibility of airing it as 522
or 422, but that either way this would end up the story.)
Pretty much everybody cried. I came home to a message on my machine from Mira,
who was almost unable to speak, and another from Claudia who said she was
honored and proud to be a part of this, and the script had made her cry. Bruce,
Richard, big beefy guys on the crew...all said the same thing. And there I have
to concur; I lost is several times as I was writing it, due to the content;
there's one scene in particular...you'll know it when you see it...that put me
away for an hour when I finished writing it.
But here's the thing...*every single person* who cried at the script, ended it
feeling that it was not a sad script in the end, or a down ending...that it
left them feeling proud, and tall, and *positive*...that life goes on...that it
was a reaffirmation of life itself, on its most primal level. They felt good
about the ending. And that was a great relief for me, because I was trying
something *very* difficult from a writing perspective, and at first blush it
looks as if I've pulled it off. (Now I get to go in as director and *totally*
screw it up.)
Only one fan has read the script...someone whose opinion I trust. Because I was
curious about the reaction from that side of the screen. And the reaction was
*exactly* the same.
So how do I think people will react?
I think a lot of people will cry.
But by the end of it, I think it will come around, and be all right...and
mainly, that people will then look back at the whole story, through all these
long years, and say, "It was a good story." And close the cover, and put it on
the shelf with the other books that will be reread again down the years, and
turn off the lights, and go to bed feeling that the time was well spent.
Which is the most any writer can ever ask for. To tell a tale worth telling To
make people cry. To make people laugh. And even, once in a while, make them
think about things, and see the world just a little differently than when they
began.
And then they can centerpunch me on the freeway, or throw a plane at me, and I
won't even mind. Because everything I set out to prove, I proved. Everything I
set out to say, I said.
I've carried this story like a hermit crab carries its shell for five long
years, counting the pilot. It's been an *awfully* long and difficult road, and
no one will ever really know just how hard this show was to make. Nor should
they, because it isn't the difficulty that makes the story, the *story* makes
the story. But one way or another, aired as 522 or 422, when it airs the burden
is off at last. Then it no longer belongs to me. It belongs to you. As should
be.
And, in the end, I think you'll be pleased.>>
Let's count all the virtues shown in that little response: Humility, Honesty,
and most importantly, Being Right.
Joe, you called it perfectly on that one... that's almost exactly how I feel
about the show. You're just about the first producer I've ever heard of who's
ever been honest about his own show and still kept his job.
Kudos.
>However, creators such as Chris Carter (of X-FILES fame) are notorious
>for "teasing" fans and then either not delivering or deliver something
>totally different altogether, sometimes being more disappointing than
>not. Or saying "we'll never do this on our show" and then a season or
>two later, do it.
>
>How do you feel about this? Do you think this way of "teasing" the fans
>is good or would you rather be upfront and truthful? And are your fans
>important enough to you that you know if you cry "Wolf!" too many times
>they won't believe/respect you?
Well, Chris of Canada... I think you aready know the answers to all of these
questions. And if JMS answersd ifferently than expected... well then, I guess
he's not the messiah after all, and so must be stoned to death for being a
false prophet.
Cassius' Quote of the Day:
Anonymous: "I don't care what they do, as long as they don't do it in the
streets and frighten the horses."
Chris Huston
Lurker's (seeing how I haven't seen the episode just yet--don't worry
about spoilers) but your post pretty much answered my questions. So
again, thank you. :)
--CH
Cassius81
No problem. Just preaching the JMS gospel.
Cassius' Quote of the Day:
Ambrose Bierce ("The Devil's Dictionary"): "Pray: to ask that the laws of the
universe be annulled on behalf of a single partitioner confessedly unworthy."
Jms at B5
>for "teasing" fans and then either not delivering or deliver something
>totally different altogether, sometimes being more disappointing than
>not. Or saying "we'll never do this on our show" and then a season or
>two later, do it.
Well, I don't really know if that's necessarily true of Chris, I think he
always tries to be straightforward with folks.
>How do you feel about this? Do you think this way of "teasing" the fans
>is good or would you rather be upfront and truthful? And are your fans
>important enough to you that you know if you cry "Wolf!" too many times
>they won't believe/respect you?
>
I think you have to be careful to always be as accurate as possible. (And bear
in mind that one of the whole reasons for this exchange is to provide an
accurate transcript of how a show is made, to help folks better understand the
process and thus get better TV and have more input into that process...and that
process is compromised if bad data is entered into the system.)
I take some small pride in the fact that in 6 years of having this on-line
conversation, when it comes to talking about this show, I have never once been
caught out in a prevarication.
Which is why I was kinda frustrated when the whole Claudia Christian situation
went down, when she was saying she was fired when in fact she walked away over
money. People said "Well, who should we believe here?" At that moment, to be
honest, it felt to me like, "Why have I bothered to establish this reputation
and conversation all this time if suddenly my word doesn't mean anything?"
Later, of course, Claudia came out and said, well, yeah, she did walk away, and
it was over money, which is of course utterly her right, I just wish she'd said
that at the start rather than much later...since the situatoion led to threats
against me and abusive email and the like.
So really, some people will believe what they choose to believe no matter how
straight you've been with them in the past...that's been a hard lesson that
I've had to learn. All I can do is to keep doing what I've been doing, talking
straight about the show to the best of my knowledge and ability. And if I'm
wrong about something, I cop to it instantly.
What's good about that is that if I think a show didn't live up to
expectations, I'll *say* so...quite bluntly sometimes. But that way, when I
say that show X is really, really *good*...fans know I ain't blowing smoke up
their collective butts.
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
B5 Official Fan Club at:
http://www.thestation.com
Jeremy Billones
Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
>I take some small pride in the fact that in 6 years of having this on-line
>conversation, when it comes to talking about this show, I have never once been
>caught out in a prevarication.
"Will you ever do a cameo on Babylon 5?"
"No."
Ahem.
--
Jeremy Billones
"Well, that's the funny thing about me. I tend to hear the actual words
people say and accept them at face value." "That's stupid." "I accept that."
Mark Maher
deference to the timing, I think it was an honest answer at the time the
question was asked. He also never had the intention of directing any of the
episodes, but I think he finally came to the realization that only he was the
right person to do the job when it came to "Sleeping in Light."
Anyway, I think that he's already discussed this question before on this
newsgroup, although as a mere mortal who suffers from distortions in my memory
as easily as anyone, I could be wrong.
__!_!__
Gizmo
Brian Watson
> In article <19991108203036...@ng-fo1.aol.com>,
> Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
> >I take some small pride in the fact that in 6 years of having this on-line
> >conversation, when it comes to talking about this show, I have never once been
> >caught out in a prevarication.
>
> "Will you ever do a cameo on Babylon 5?"
>
> "No."
>
> Ahem.
Well, no speaking role, and really, who better to be the one to pull the last
switch to shut down B5?
Jms at B5
>
> "No."
>
>Ahem.
>
I said as straight as I can be about what happens in the show on the production
side to within my knowledge and ability. That means mainly what happens behind
the scenes. I a) consider the cameo to be a story thing, and b) what was I to
say to that question? "Oh, yes, I intend to be in the last episode shutting
off the lights before B5 blows up"...? That would be a massive spoiler. And
it ain't the point.
Jms at B5
>switch to shut down B5?
>
>
Besides, it was supposed to be a *surprise*. There's a qualitative difference
between talking about what's happening, and something planned for down the road
(if I had the courage at the last to do it, which I was never sure about).
JBONETATI
jms>>
I'm so glad you did! That was *special*!
Jan
Carlos Anguizola
that was not cameo. that was simbolic, it was the end of the babylon
station.
give him a chance.
Darklighter
Jeremy Billones <bill...@Radix.Net> wrote in message
news:8099j6$e61$1...@saltmine.radix.net...
> In article <19991108203036...@ng-fo1.aol.com>,
> Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
> >I take some small pride in the fact that in 6 years of having this
on-line
> >conversation, when it comes to talking about this show, I have never once
been
> >caught out in a prevarication.
>
> "Will you ever do a cameo on Babylon 5?"
>
> "No."
>
> Ahem.
>
GreyWulph
that he never got caught in a DELIBERATE prevarication. He probably had every
intention of never having a cameo on the show when he made that statement so
the comment was not meant to fool the audience. But life is fluid and people
change their minds and I for one think the cameo was appropriate since it
wasn't a meaningless role but a symbolic one. Thus it had substance (unlike say
Stephen King who almost always has some throwaway role in any of his pictures).
Thats my take on it anyway. If he had every intention of doing that cameo when
he made the statement then it is a deliberate lie. I would have hated it if he
thought "Well I think it would be appropriate for me to turn out the lights on
Babylon 5 since it would be a powerful symbolic moment...but I said I would
never do a cameo so forget it" Circumstances change and you shouldn't let
something you said in the past
tie you down.
Jeremy Billones
>>>I take some small pride in the fact that in 6 years of having this on-line
>>>conversation, when it comes to talking about this show, I have never once
>>>been caught out in a prevarication.
>>"Will you ever do a cameo on Babylon 5?"
>> "No."
>Besides, it was supposed to be a *surprise*. There's a qualitative difference
>between talking about what's happening, and something planned for down the road
>(if I had the courage at the last to do it, which I was never sure about).
Oh, so you only fib when you have a good reason to. Got it.
Geez, Joe, I don't *care* that you lied about it. I care that, for whatever
reason, you can't stand up and admit it.
WWS
GreyWulph wrote:
>
> What I think JMS meant when he said he never got caught in a
> prevarication was that he never got caught in a DELIBERATE
> prevarication.
How can you get so close to getting it and not get it?
He said he never got caught. That seems pretty simple to me.
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
There's a lot of things I've never been caught doing, either.
Matthew B. Vincent
>I take some small pride in the fact that in 6 years of having this on-line
>conversation, when it comes to talking about this show, I have never once been
>caught out in a prevarication.
That's not bad going. *applause*
>Which is why I was kinda frustrated when the whole Claudia Christian situation
>went down, when she was saying she was fired when in fact she walked away over
>money. People said "Well, who should we believe here?" At that moment, to be
>honest, it felt to me like, "Why have I bothered to establish this reputation
>and conversation all this time if suddenly my word doesn't mean anything?"
>Later, of course, Claudia came out and said, well, yeah, she did walk away, and
>it was over money, which is of course utterly her right, I just wish she'd said
>that at the start rather than much later...since the situatoion led to threats
>against me and abusive email and the like.
Ouch! That's no good. There's no excuse for writing you abusive
email...especially since they didn't even have their facts right on the
situation first. Besides, after all the effort you've gone to in providing the
show in the first place, you're hardly going to let viewers down by firing
someone who's making a good contribution to the show.
I remember you mentioned how Claudia read the transcript for SiL and cried and
remarked that "I'm proud to have been a part of this". I can imagine that it
would have been embarrassing for her to be leaving for financial reasons after
knowing what a good thing the show is, and she'd have wanted to cover that up.
In the end, she made matters worse for the both of you. Oh well, I guess
mistakes are a pretty big part of being human.
>So really, some people will believe what they choose to believe no matter how
>straight you've been with them in the past...that's been a hard lesson that
>I've had to learn.
That's a good point. You can find yourself in the position where you are doing
good things and you can feel how your internal sense of integrity is behind
it, yet other people have no idea of what is going on inside you. Actually, in
general, it seems to often be the case that other people don't understand what
is going on in someone else's head. This can be frustrating when your actions
are interpreted as mundane but were actually motivated by strong feelings or
convictions.
Anyway, like you've said (both in your post and in the show), people do tend
to make rationalisations and believe things that are convenient for them as a
coping strategy.
>All I can do is to keep doing what I've been doing,
>talking straight about the show to the best of my knowledge and ability. And
>if I'm wrong about something, I cop to it instantly.
Well, I guess you've got a long way to fall from. Fans have a mental idea of
how things could be done better, which is very abstract, yet you're actually
in the position of getting the thing done in reality. Seems like a similar
thing to fans sitting on a couch and watching a sports star.
Matthew
Jeremy Billones
>>
>> "No."
>
>side to within my knowledge and ability. That means mainly what happens behind
>the scenes. I a) consider the cameo to be a story thing, and b) what was I to
>say to that question? "Oh, yes, I intend to be in the last episode shutting
>off the lights before B5 blows up"...? That would be a massive spoiler. And
>it ain't the point.
"No comment."
"That's me in the Kosh suit. Can't you tell?"
"Maybe. But if I ever do, I'd want it to be a surprise, so I'm not
telling. Neener neener neener."
GreyWulph
>>
>> What I think JMS meant when he said he never got caught in a
>> prevarication was that he never got caught in a DELIBERATE
>> prevarication.
>
>How can you get so close to getting it and not get it?
>
>He said he never got caught. That seems pretty simple to me.
>
>--
Respectfully, I think its you who don't get it. My point is its not a lie if
its said sincerely at the time. A lie is a deliberate, false statement. I
obviously have no insight into JMS's personal thoughts but from his posts I've
read I get the impression he meant it when he said he wouldn't do a cameo but
he later changed his mind when the circumstances seemed it would be
appropriate. On the surface you are right, he said he wouldn't do it and he
did. But the difference is, what you perceive as a lie I see as a change of
mind. This whole conversation shows one thing though...the old saying is
true...Never say never!
Gary Farber
:>
:>Ahem.
: I said as straight as I can be about what happens in the show on the production
: side to within my knowledge and ability. That means mainly what happens behind
: the scenes. I a) consider the cameo to be a story thing, and b) what was I to
: say to that question? "Oh, yes, I intend to be in the last episode shutting
: off the lights before B5 blows up"...? That would be a massive spoiler. And
: it ain't the point.
The thought occurs that you could have answered "I ain't saying," or "yes,
only once."
--
Copyright 1999 by Gary Farber; For Hire as: Web Researcher; Nonfiction
Writer, Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; Northeast US
Mark Maher
>In <19991109175008...@ng-ba1.aol.com>
>
>The thought occurs that you could have answered "I ain't saying," or "yes,
>only once."
>
to tell what was to come in the story, in all fairness did anyone expect
anything else? To provide either answer that you proposed would have been like
dumping a 55-gallon drum of gasoline on a campfire - instead of curbing
speculation, it would have inflamed it beyond control. Every public appearance
that he made after the fact, he would have been hounded about when and where he
might be expected to make his "cameo." Even non-NASA folks would have probably
worked out that if he ever did appear, it would be in the series finale, doing
precisely what he did. No - his only proper response to the question was "No."
It was the only way to keep the story (not to mention his nerve) intact.
Now, when it came to how the show was done and what the real-world
considerations were, I believe that he was as open and as honest as he could be
without jeopardizing production. He did maintain a very positive tone (certainly
against his real thoughts) during the production of Crusade because to do
otherwise would have caused it's cancellation at an even earlier date. Only
after production was halted for the last time did he come forward with the
reasons.
__!_!__
Gizmo
WWS
GreyWulph wrote:
>
> >GreyWulph wrote:
> >>
> >> What I think JMS meant when he said he never got caught in a
> >> prevarication was that he never got caught in a DELIBERATE
> >> prevarication.
> >
> >How can you get so close to getting it and not get it?
> >
> >He said he never got caught. That seems pretty simple to me.
>
> Respectfully, I think its you who don't get it. My point is its not a lie if
> its said sincerely at the time. A lie is a deliberate, false statement. I
> obviously have no insight into JMS's personal thoughts but from his posts I've
> read I get the impression he meant it when he said he wouldn't do a cameo but
> he later changed his mind when the circumstances seemed it would be
> appropriate. On the surface you are right, he said he wouldn't do it and he
> did. But the difference is, what you perceive as a lie I see as a change of
> mind. This whole conversation shows one thing though...the old saying is
> true...Never say never!
Wait, wait, wait - you're imputing an argument to me I never made,
although I see that given the nature of the discussion that's understandable.
I couldn't care less about the cameo thing, that's completely trivial
and as Joe said, he meant it completely when he said it. People are
allowed to change their minds.
I just thought it was interesting that he said he never got caught.
It's an odd phrase.
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
WWS
Mark Maher wrote:
>
> While it's true that jms has been known to use misdirection when he was pressed
> to tell what was to come in the story, in all fairness did anyone expect
> anything else?
Actually, the misdirection was all Gary's. He's just recently executed
a masterful troll of JMS on rasff (you may want to look it up) and was
trying to get it rolling over here as well.
That's not any kind of flame, just reporting things as I see them.
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
John W. Kennedy
> I just thought it was interesting that he said he never got caught.
>
> It's an odd phrase.
(Sigh!) Broaden your reading.
JMS isn't a programmer or a mathematician, and he doesn't write like
one. (I am frequently amazed by the bad grammar in his dialog -- not in
the "ain't" sense, but in the sense that so many of the sentences have
broken backs.)
The locution is a perfectly ordinary one, into which no strange meanings
should be read.
Joe's occasionally given us a temporary fib for our own good, but he's
never been deceitful.
--
-John W. Kennedy
-rri...@ibm.net
Compact is becoming contract
Man only earns and pays. -- Charles Williams