Common Sense, Anyone? ("Memory of War" spoilers)
John Schilling
One of the things I have always admired about _Babylon 5_ is the
relative scarcity of the Idiot Plot, compared with the rest of
the TV sf genre. And so I have kindly overlooked the most of
the few that slipped in despite, one presumes, the best efforts
of the creators to avoid such.
But this one is too egregious, and too persistent, to let by.
Spoilers for "The Memory of War" follow:
OK, folks. When the crew of a spaceship (of necessity equipped with
space suits impermeable to anything bigger than a helium atom) embarked
on a quest to seek information relevant to incredibly sophisticated
alien biological warfare technologies, land on a world whose inhabitants
appear to have been exterminated by an incredibly sophisticated alien
biological warfare technology, and walk about in the open without even
a simple filter mask, much less one of the aforementioned space suits,
they are engaged in supreme idiocy.
Doing so *repeatedly*, merely indicates that these people are quite simply
too stupid to live, and that the human gene pool will be vastly improved
by their deaths and those of anyone foolish enough to depend on them.
I suppose if it never impacts the plot, it could be excused as dramatic
license. It's not easy to act through a mask all the time, and perhaps
the current cast is not up to the standards set by Andreas Katsulas and
Caitlin Brown, to name a few.
But now we get a story where the key dramatic crisis is based on the
failure of anyone involved to consider taking the most elementary
precautions against the very threat they are actively *seeking*.
Not only that, but the backstory which establishes the setting as
an Incredibly Dangerous and Mysterious World From Whence Noone Ever
Returns, assumes that absolutely *everyone* who has ever visited
said world in the past was equally stupid.
And the prize our heroes win for resolving the crisis, the scientific
breakthrough that makes it all worthwhile, is the ability to infect
one's self with a reprogrammed alien biological warfare agent of
incredible sophistication - trust us, it's perfectly safe - in order
to avoid the indignity of wearing a filter mask for a couple of days.
This is an idiot plot, pure and simple.
Which is a pity, as there was a lot of good stuff in the episode. Most
of the buildup, for example, before the silliness of the underlying
premise was revealed. Galen's role throughout. And Dureena, and even
the throwaway concept of using expendable remote probes before landing.
The makings of a superb story, with one big undigestable lump of gross
idiocy at the center of it all.
Sigh.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schi...@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
Patriarch
> Spoiler space
I understand what you're saying on this one, and believe me, I thought the
same thing. But basically what I figured, is that the thousands of probes
would pick up any presence of the virus, and then, clear, they would be able
to land unhindered by suits or even breathing masks. I realize this is still
a huge risk, but considering that you can sort of overlook it in my opinion.
-Patriarch(Scott)
Jms at B5
>And the prize our heroes win for resolving the crisis, the scientific
>breakthrough that makes it all worthwhile, is the ability to infect
>one's self with a reprogrammed alien biological warfare agent of
>incredible sophistication - trust us, it's perfectly safe - in order
>to avoid the indignity of wearing a filter mask for a couple of days.
>
>
>This is an idiot plot, pure and simple.
Funny...the microbiology experts at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory who vetted
the script thought it would be a) a useful thing indeed, and b) extremely
useful as a template in attempting to understand how the Drakh virus works.
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
B5 Official Fan Club at:
http://www.thestation.com
Aaron P. Brezenski
In article <19990815023940...@ng-fo1.aol.com>,
Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
>Funny...the microbiology experts at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory who vetted
>the script thought it would be a) a useful thing indeed, and b) extremely
>useful as a template in attempting to understand how the Drakh virus works.
Joe, you seem to be missing his point. Schilling is saying that it was kind
of silly for the characters to be wandering around without masks in the
first place, given that they have spacesuits which would obviate this need.
I don't think he was commenting on the use/uselessness of the nano-stuff per
se, just stating that it was ironic to have a bunch of people walking around
in a contaminated area without masks find a bit of technology which would
allow them to walk around in a contaminated area without masks.
[Moderator note: Essentially correct. There are lots of legitimate uses
for the stuff; the one actually proposed is not on the list except through
consistency of idiocy. JHS]
Aaron Brezenski
"Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there isn't someone out to get me."
Card-Carrying Member of the Illuminati
D. Filip
On 15 Aug 1999, Jms at B5 wrote:
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> Funny...the microbiology experts at the Jet Propulsion Laboratory who vetted
> the script thought it would be a) a useful thing indeed, and b) extremely
> useful as a template in attempting to understand how the Drakh virus works.
What about John Shilling's question *before* the virus shield?
Did the JPL also suggest that everyone would walk around, without space
suits OR a virus shield on a planet that was basically called "The
Ultimate Poisoned Deathtrap World of No Return," a place that was a
suspected plague carrier from the get-go?
I fear for our future astronauts if the JPL slipped on that one :)
Dianne Heins
Not to worry, it'll be quite some time before there's even a
possibility of anyone coming across a planet with breathable
atmosphere... unless, of course, the Centauri show up on schedule
<g>.
Dianne
Lawrence King
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>> I must agree - no filter mask is perfect......
So you'd rather wander about with no mask at all?
Wonderful.
Presumably you oppose SDI ("Star Wars") as well? The most
common argument against an anti-missile defense is essentially the
same as your argument against wearing masks in an infected zone.....
But in any event, it's _easy_ to make a perfect mask, as long as it's
part of a suit rather than a face-mask.
An airtight spacesuit seems pretty darn close to foolproof. There's
no way the virus can cross from outside to inside while the suit is
sealed. If you're afraid that the virus will hide in cracks on the
suit's surface (thus escaping decontamination when you return to the
Excalibur), try this:
We have Drakh virus samples from Earth (though, sadly, no one thinks
that analyzing _that_ is the proper route to a cure....) So we can
find some sort of corrosive chemical which is known to utterly destroy
this virus. Then wear two suits, one inside the other, with the
chemical between the two layers. When you leave the planet, float
freely outside the airlock, remove and discard the outer suit, and
then enter the airlock on your own power.
But of course this is all silly. Medlab has very flimsy material
which clearly functions as a foolproof barrier to all germs, including
the Drakh virus; that's a long-established B5 fact.
| Larry King \\|// |
| univ of washington (@ @) |
|--------------------------------------------------oOO-(_)-OOo-----|
| Babylon 5 History Page |
| http://www.chronology.org/b-five/ |
| B5 Chronology. Prophecies. Astronomy. Earth's Colonies. |
------------------------------------------------------------------
The Reverend Jacob Corbin
(spoilers)
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>What about John Shilling's question *before* the virus shield? Did
>the JPL also suggest that everyone would walk around, without space
>suits OR a virus shield on a planet that was basically called "The
>Ultimate Poisoned Deathtrap World of No Return," a place that was a
>suspected plague carrier from the get-go? I fear for our future
>astronauts if the JPL slipped on that one :)
Well, what do you think the shitload of probes that they dropped at the
beginning were doing--whistling Dixie?? Obviously they thought that the
probes would've detected any viruses/poisons/etc., otherwise what was the
point of the exercise?
Perhaps the Drakh plague is detectable on sensors (it ought to be,
considering that it was *visible* in ACtA) and this one isn't. Makes sense,
since this virus is obviously the more sophisticated of the two, having
killed the planet's population in a matter of days rather than years.
Reverend Jake
feel my pain at http://www.fortunecity.com/tattooine/shirley/272/
_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com
Steve Brinich
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> What about John Shilling's question *before* the virus shield?
> Did the JPL also suggest that everyone would walk around, without
> space suits OR a virus shield on a planet that was basically called
> "The Ultimate Poisoned Deathtrap World of No Return," a place that
> was a suspected plague carrier from the get-go?
> I fear for our future astronauts if the JPL slipped on that one :)
Maybe JPL will suggest sending robot probes first, just like in the
episode. :-)
--
Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> If the government wants us
http://www.Radix.Net/~steveb to respect the law
89B992BBE67F7B2F64FDF2EA14374C3E it should set a better example
Brian Watson
> On 16 Aug 1999, Kay Shapero wrote:
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> >> I must agree - no filter mask is perfect......
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> So you'd rather wander about with no mask at all?
> Wonderful.
Well let's see. If an impervious temporary innoculant could be developed
that is absolutely failsafe, then WHY bother with a mask? I think /that/
is the point.
> But in any event, it's _easy_ to make a perfect mask, as long as it's
> part of a suit rather than a face-mask.
So you have to carry around your own air, the weight of the scrubber, the
weight of the suit, the weight of the coolant system, the weight of the
helmet, plus have to deal with the complexities of working while in that
suit.
Or you could use a perfect 48 hour innoculant.
Difficult choice there. Huh?
> An airtight spacesuit seems pretty darn close to foolproof. There's
> no way the virus can cross from outside to inside while the suit is
> sealed. If you're afraid that the virus will hide in cracks on the
> suit's surface (thus escaping decontamination when you return to the
> Excalibur), try this:
And if the suit is the ONLY line of defense, then the suit getting
punctured means death. Or, they can go with a perfect 48 hour innoculant.
Are you seeing the point yet?
> We have Drakh virus samples from Earth (though, sadly, no one thinks
> that analyzing _that_ is the proper route to a cure....)
I'm quite sure that Dr. Franklin /is/ doing that, but what part of "this
virus is 1,000 years ahead of our technology and we can't hope to advance
in tech enough in 5 years to make our own cure, so we have to find it off
world" did you not understand?
> So we can
> find some sort of corrosive chemical which is known to utterly destroy
> this virus. Then wear two suits, one inside the other, with the
> chemical between the two layers. When you leave the planet, float
> freely outside the airlock, remove and discard the outer suit, and
> then enter the airlock on your own power.
Going to go through a lot of suits that way. Half their stores would have
to be these suits and the corrosive chemical. Then again, if there is a
puncture in the suit, you have to worry about your shipmate getting bathed
in a bag of acid. Oh boy, now THATS safe. Good thinking.
> But of course this is all silly. Medlab has very flimsy material
> which clearly functions as a foolproof barrier to all germs, including
> the Drakh virus; that's a long-established B5 fact.
Not true, we've seen them using more complete virus screening systems,
such as SCBA suits. They obviously just use the lesser blocks when there
is no threat of contamination.
Nicholas Cole
:
: One of the things I have always admired about _Babylon 5_ is the
: relative scarcity of the Idiot Plot, compared with the rest of
: the TV sf genre. And so I have kindly overlooked the most of
: the few that slipped in despite, one presumes, the best efforts
: of the creators to avoid such.
:
: But this one is too egregious, and too persistent, to let by.
:
:
: Spoilers for "The Memory of War" follow:
:
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<snip>
: This is an idiot plot, pure and simple.
:
:
: Which is a pity, as there was a lot of good stuff in the episode. Most
I have to say that the same thing struck me. I haven't seen much of
Crusade yet since I live in the UK, but a few weeks in the US are
letting me see more.
I loved the probes at the start of the episode, and other bits and
pieces, but several other things left me cold.
Galen the Technomage looked like an interesting character, but I
suspected that there would be an annoying tendancy for him to vanish
off into his ship, come back a couple of hours later to wave his hands
a bit and save the day.
The archaeologist chap seemed a little too cardboard-like for my
taste. OK - I've got the message that he only wants money, can we get
on with it?
But the above are just quibbles.
The total lack of precautions against infection I found just too much,
especially since the team ended up being infected.
Not only that, but after a few hours in a ships lab, an alien
technology was able to be turned to good use. Seemed a bit too
"hero-types can do anything" for my taste. I don't remember B5 being
like that, which is one of the things I really liked about it.
Nor did I like the way the resident thief was able to bring back
Galen's staff when everyone else had declaired that it was completely
impossible. That whole bit seemed a bit like killing off a main
character and then bringing him back to life two mins later --
something a lot of other shows fall back on.
Although I loved B5, the three eps I've seen of crusade have not given
me the same feelings about this other series (I know one shouldn't
compare and all that). There seems to be a formula to eps which I
don't really like:
Captain leads ship somewhere dangerous.
Archaeology bod asks what's in it for him / to go home.
[cut to cartoon graphics of planet]
Galen uses holographs / Everyone asks where Galen is.
[more comic-style graphics]
Situation looks hopeless.
Situation looks very hopeless.
The day is saved by a "special" character doing something "special".
The ship flys off.
Characters wonder how they could have been so stupid, but find some
"good" which has come of it all.
I may have got it all wrong, and I look forward to the next ep,
but I need some more convincing.
Best wishes, and no harm meant
Nick
LessXTreme
>that analyzing _that_ is the proper route to a cure....)
Actually, we're told that the Earth's scientists are simultaneously working on
a cure while the Excalibur is out looking, but there ain't much hope...
Eric Castle
Nicholas Cole wrote:
>
> John Schilling (schi...@spock.usc.edu) wrote:
> :
> : One of the things I have always admired about _Babylon 5_ is the
> : relative scarcity of the Idiot Plot, compared with the rest of
> : the TV sf genre. And so I have kindly overlooked the most of
> : the few that slipped in despite, one presumes, the best efforts
> : of the creators to avoid such.
> :
> : But this one is too egregious, and too persistent, to let by.
> :
> :
> : Spoilers for "The Memory of War" follow:
> :
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> Although I loved B5, the three eps I've seen of crusade have not given
> me the same feelings about this other series (I know one shouldn't
> compare and all that). There seems to be a formula to eps which I
> don't really like:
>
> Captain leads ship somewhere dangerous.
>
> Archaeology bod asks what's in it for him / to go home.
>
> [cut to cartoon graphics of planet]
>
I have to agree - the graphics/effects for planets (as seen from space)
are just aweful looking. Seems like planets would be rather easy these
days for cgi. The planet shots seem worse than in B5. Although some of
those shots of Centauri Prime in season 5 I think it was, were not to
good either. Seems like ST:TNG, Voyager and DS9 have decent enough
planet shots - why not Crusade.
Eric
Nitflegal
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>> >> I must agree - no filter mask is perfect......
>>
>> So you'd rather wander about with no mask at all?
>> Wonderful.
>
>Well let's see. If an impervious temporary innoculant could be developed
>that is absolutely failsafe, then WHY bother with a mask? I think /that/
>is the point.
>
>> But in any event, it's _easy_ to make a perfect mask, as long as it's
>> part of a suit rather than a face-mask.
No mask is perfect, they malfunction, are not connected properly, some dumbass
forgot to change the filter on schedule, or just get contrary.
>
>So you have to carry around your own air, the weight of the scrubber, the
>weight of the suit, the weight of the coolant system, the weight of the
>helmet, plus have to deal with the complexities of working while in that
>suit.
>
Very well said. Just for the Hell of it, I asked some friends still working in
HIV/SIV/Ebola Zaire research whether they'd shuck the suits if I could give
them a safe (99.5%) treatment that would kill any virus entering their body. 7
out of 11 of them said yes, and that was limited to in lab conditions, not
carrying all of that crap for a few miles of hiking. Did you know that the poor
bastards who wear those suits outdoors have very carefully regulated time
allotments (ranging from 2-4 hours) that they can wear those before they have
to decontaminate and schuck them? They are exhausting and dehydrating, and this
sneaks up on you, so all of a sudden you're dizzy and uncoordinated. Accidents
can happen very easily then.
>Or you could use a perfect 48 hour innoculant.
>
>Difficult choice there. Huh?
>
>
>> An airtight spacesuit seems pretty darn close to foolproof. There's
>> no way the virus can cross from outside to inside while the suit is
>> sealed. If you're afraid that the virus will hide in cracks on the
>> suit's surface (thus escaping decontamination when you return to the
>> Excalibur), try this:
Question, why are the suits over-pressurized?
Answer, because they are easy to puncture in a LABORATORY situation, and not
only does it hopefully keep the outside air from entering, but it gives you
warning of a puncture when your suit deflates. For people outdoors, they really
shy away from wearing them in any kind of wilderness situration, because it
only takes one sharp branch or rock to break the seal. They have them with
kevlar, steel mesh, fiberglass mesh/fibers, etc. to help make it less tearable,
and those add weight and further lower flexibility. Everyone hates those too.
>
>And if the suit is the ONLY line of defense, then the suit getting
>punctured means death. Or, they can go with a perfect 48 hour innoculant.
>
>Are you seeing the point yet?
>
>> We have Drakh virus samples from Earth (though, sadly, no one thinks
>> that analyzing _that_ is the proper route to a cure....)
>
>I'm quite sure that Dr. Franklin /is/ doing that, but what part of "this
>virus is 1,000 years ahead of our technology and we can't hope to advance
>in tech enough in 5 years to make our own cure, so we have to find it off
>world" did you not understand?
>
>> So we can
>> find some sort of corrosive chemical which is known to utterly destroy
>> this virus. Then wear two suits, one inside the other, with the
>> chemical between the two layers. When you leave the planet, float
>> freely outside the airlock, remove and discard the outer suit, and
>> then enter the airlock on your own power.
Two things, first, a good puncture will break both suits, thus introducing
corrosive chemical into your suit, held nice and close to your body, and you
can't shuck it in a hot zone. It also means that the old standby, slap a piece
of duct tape over the puncture and book for decontam won't work so well.
Second, remember the added weight? Tell you what. In the summer, put on a jeans
and a sweatshirt. Now wear a ski suit over it, a ski mask, and ski goggles. Now
go hiking. Bring a friend to cart your butt to the ER half an hour later.
That's a BSL4 suit. Me, I only wore bike shorts under them, and even with all
those wonderful cooling devices, I felt like a wrung-out dishrag. In an air
conditioned lab. I shudder to think about those poor bastards outside.
>
>Going to go through a lot of suits that way. Half their stores would have
>to be these suits and the corrosive chemical. Then again, if there is a
>puncture in the suit, you have to worry about your shipmate getting bathed
>in a bag of acid. Oh boy, now THATS safe. Good thinking.
>
>> But of course this is all silly. Medlab has very flimsy material
>> which clearly functions as a foolproof barrier to all germs, including
>> the Drakh virus; that's a long-established B5 fact.
Umm, we have? We've seen those sheer face masks, but only during surgery. My
humble opinion, as a research surgeon, is that those are a psychological crutch
as much as real protection. They will limit contaminants, but not eliminate
them. Surgery is not truly sterile, and the masks will lower colony counts in
the wound, but not eliminate them, they are not expected to be 100%, or even
70% impervious. If surgical masks were so effective that no virus could get
through, you couldn't breathe through them either. Believe me, you can smell
the delightful stench ofthe cautery, the smell of blood, punctured bowels, etc.
Stuff goes through those masks, both ways. Add in that I would imagine that in
their xeno-labs they have proper air handling (20-30 air changes an hour,
airflow from ceiling to floor, high air curtain about the table, etc.) there is
small chance that any airborne contaminants can rise to meet your respiratory
tract.
Go outside, where the air is swarming with viral particles, and you might want
more protection. The point? We've seen those masks in less dangerous situations
in presumably well equipped rooms. The need for protection moves up several
levels in an outside environment.
Lawrence King
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>> Well let's see. If an impervious temporary innoculant could
>> be developed that is absolutely failsafe, then WHY bother with
>> a mask? I think /that/ is the point.
No, that is NOT the point. No one disputes that _if_ they have this
temporary failsafe inoculant then it's better than a mask.
But they did NOT have this inoculant until the end of the episode. We
SAW the doctor create the inoculant. Then why did they wander about
with no protection at all for the entire episode prior to that
invention?
Here is John's original point:
1. These folks wandered about the planet with no protection, even
though they know the planet is dangerous, and that it might have a
virus which is known to be fatal.
2. We know they had no protection, since at the end of the episode
they created a form of protection and were pleasantly surprised.
3. Normally, we might overlook the walking on the planet as
"dramatic license", which is a common (and sometimes acceptable)
excuse in science fiction television. We might imagine that the
protection issue was just ignored in order to avoid actor-concealing
masks. But that doesn't work in this episode, since the issue was
NOT avoided, but rather was central to the episode.
You can have a Trek episode where the aliens seem to speak English
when talking to Kirk, because we can pretend that the translation
issue was dealt with off-screen. But you can't end that episode with
Kirk offering to teach English to the aliens!