Enemies of Ellison Fall?
Jms at B5
Enemies of Ellison organization, has been arrested on some pretty serious
charges. Anyone have any specifics?
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
B5 Official Fan Club at:
http://www.thestation.com
Brian Siano
> I've heard that --------, one of the people responsible for the so-called
> Enemies of Ellison organization, has been arrested on some pretty serious
> charges. Anyone have any specifics?
>
> jms
About a week ago, someone here reported that an unnamed foeof Ellison's had been
busted for this. A few clues were mentioned,
which I won't repeat.
I did a little checking around of various sources, like NEXIS,
newsgroup discussions, newspaper sites likely to carry the story,
word searches on the name I'd immediately thought of... and
found nothing.
So, a note was posted here saying that until anyone has _hard
evidence_ that someone had been busted under these extremely
serious and damaging charges, it might be a good idea if we
didn't circulate rumors. Most of the regulars here agreed; most of
us read Ellison's essay "Xenogenesis," and we know how some
fans can be with salacious rumors.
Now, if the news does get published somewhere, and it's
confirmed that this arrest _did_ happen, then I can't object.
But, until this happens, I'd like to suggest that people not even
_hint_ about any particular individuals.
--
Brian Siano - bsi...@cceb.med.upenn.edu
"The Council had set out to produce a race of supermen
for the exploration of space. They produced instead races
of ravening idiot vampires."
William S. Burroughs, _Cities of the Red Night_
Mitchell Maltenfort
Jms at B5 wrote in message <19990731020509...@ng-fp1.aol.com>...
>I've heard that Charles Platt, one of the people responsible for the
so-called
>Enemies of Ellison organization, has been arrested on some pretty serious
>charges. Anyone have any specifics?
>
> jms
<clicking sound as synapses open and close. It takes a while for them to
warm up on a Saturday morn. In my sleepy state, I assume this *is* the
maestro of B5 I respond to, and not a hoaxster. If, in this state, I am
committing a breach of decorum, apologies in advance, polite corrections
appreciated. Please keep in mind I mean well.>
No specifics, but a recollection of innuendo.
<Further disclaimer: I'm just following the shortest possible distance
between this query and recent postings, I don't make any promises about the
safety or stability of this bridge or either of the points it connects.>
A few weeks ago, there was a thread on this group started when someone asked
to confirm a rumour that Harlan Ellison had died.
After the usual responses (denials and jokes), someone posted what he said
was a message from Ellison himself: this newsgroup was to be informed that
Ellison had died, from glee upon hearing that someone he disliked very badly
had been arrested on charges related to children and sexual activity. Can't
recall if the alleged activity was molestation or pornography.
In a rare display of discretion for the Internet, posters *refused* to even
offer speculations or suggestions as to whom it might be.
So it *might* be Charles Platt.
I'm going to end this post now and go back to calculating statistics.
Strangely, now I feel much more comfortable trying to feel my way through
those...
Bill Warren
> Now, if the news does get published somewhere, and it's
>confirmed that this arrest _did_ happen, then I can't object.
>But, until this happens, I'd like to suggest that people not even
>_hint_ about any particular individuals.
I think this is the wisest course for the time being.
Jms at B5
>>confirmed that this arrest _did_ happen, then I can't object.
>>But, until this happens, I'd like to suggest that people not even
>>_hint_ about any particular individuals.
From what I learned today, the arrest *did* take place. The word out of
Jerome, Arizona from the deputy sherrif who arrested him is that Charles Platt
was arrested and released on bail. He has apparently been bound over for the
next step (grand jury). This can be verified via the Jerome Arizona PD and the
county clerk's office.
Many conflicting reports on the actual charges.
in_vale...@hotmail.com
jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
> >> Now, if the news does get published somewhere, and it's
> >>confirmed that this arrest _did_ happen, then I can't object.
> >>But, until this happens, I'd like to suggest that people not even
> >>_hint_ about any particular individuals.
>
> From what I learned today, the arrest *did* take place. The word out
of
> Jerome, Arizona from the deputy sherrif who arrested him is that
Charles Platt
> was arrested and released on bail. He has apparently been bound over
for the
> next step (grand jury). This can be verified via the Jerome Arizona
PD and the
> county clerk's office.
>
> Many conflicting reports on the actual charges.
>
> jms
I asked Locus magazine about this. Here's the response:
-----------------
The August issue of Locus (page 12) says this: Platt was "arrested in
Jerome AZ for providing alcohol to minors at a party at which one girl
claimed to have been given a date-rape drug. He spent one evening in
jail, but is now out on bail and staying out of town to avoid villagers
with torches and pitchforks. The police seized his car and its
contents, including laptop computers. The city and country have
separately filed a total of four charges that could result, if he is
convicted, in a sentence of over 10 years in prison."
--Mark Kelly Locus Online
--------------------------
A bit tongue in cheek with the "torches and pitchforks", but it still
sounds serious. Messin' with Harlan does seem to bring bad juju.
scott tilson.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Seth Finkelstein
Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
>This can be verified via the Jerome Arizona PD and the county clerk's office.
I tried calling myself to verify. I was phone-bounced around
from the police department to the county jail to the booking division
to the records division. This isn't easy stuff.
But I eventually spoke to a person in the police department
who could verify that yes, he was arrested, on July 9, 1999. It
involved misdemeanors and a "class 2 felony". The charges list wasn't
clear, and I didn't want to badger the person, so I didn't get every
detail. One charge was providing alcohol to a minor. He was NOT charged
with molestation or pornography.
My interest: I've had a few arguments with Charles Platt
myself, but I was very skeptical of the rumor, so I decided to pick up
the telephone and do some fact-checking.
By the way, is it really JMS starting and fueling thus thread?
I've never met the man, but it seems a bit out-of-character from what I
know about his complaints about attacks on the net.
--
Seth Finkelstein The address above is wrong. Send to sethf at-sign mit.edu
Consulting Web Programmer
Brian Siano
in_vale...@hotmail.com wrote:
> In article <19990731201827...@ng-fa1.aol.com>,
>
> I asked Locus magazine about this. Here's the response:
> -----------------
> The August issue of Locus (page 12) says this: Platt was "arrested in
> Jerome AZ for providing alcohol to minors at a party at which one girl
> claimed to have been given a date-rape drug. He spent one evening in
> jail, but is now out on bail and staying out of town to avoid villagers
> with torches and pitchforks. The police seized his car and its
> contents, including laptop computers. The city and country have
> separately filed a total of four charges that could result, if he is
> convicted, in a sentence of over 10 years in prison."
> --Mark Kelly Locus Online
I oughta start reading that site. Thanks for the info:
gotta admit, it's a _lot_ less than those "pederasty charges"
someone was bandying about a few days back.
Not a fate I'd wish on anyone, generally. (Especially if
the Jerome cops are anything like that lunatic who
ran the Phoenix PD a few years back.)
Jms at B5
>I've never met the man, but it seems a bit out-of-character from what I
>know about his complaints about attacks on the net.
I didn't exactly start the thread, since apparently it had been a matter of
some discussion before. I came on here to ask for more information so I could
find out what the story was...not exactly fueling attacks, neither was I
engaging in any attack. So I don't think the concern here is valid or
grounded.
Platt was always one to spew forth whatever information (valid or not) that he
thought could do damage to Harlan, via the Enemies of Ellison, so there doesn't
exactly seem to be a great deal of high ground for him (or his associates) to
stand on here.
In any event, the Locus piece had all the info I was looking for, so that is
the end of it for me.
Seth Finkelstein
>>By the way, is it really JMS starting and fueling this thread?
>>I've never met the man, but it seems a bit out-of-character from what I
>>know about his complaints about attacks on the net.
>
>I didn't exactly start the thread, since apparently it had been a matter of
>some discussion before. I came on here to ask for more information so I could
>find out what the story was...not exactly fueling attacks, neither was I
>engaging in any attack. So I don't think the concern here is valid or
>grounded.
You did indeed start *this* particular thread, earlier
discussion notwithstanding. Now, let me be clear, I'm not criticizing
you for it, I'd be a hypocrite if I did. To play the same semantic
volleyball, note I didn't say it was an attack, but it was a message
which seemed askew with what I knew about how JMS felt about attacks.
Since I saw the article originated from AOL, aka forgers-r-us, and I
had never seen a message from JMS to this group, my net skepticism
kicked in. It had a whiff of troll to me. So if that just turned out
to be the spoor of a long-running grudge, well, better one be too
skeptical than too gullible on the net.
> Platt was always one to spew forth whatever information (valid or not)
> that he thought could do damage to Harlan, via the Enemies of Ellison,
> so there doesn't exactly seem to be a great deal of high ground for
> him (or his associates) to stand on here.
I'm not one of his associates. I don't like him much, and the
feeling is apparently mutual. Many of the times we've crossed paths, the
result has generally been unpleasant for both of us. I picked up the
phone because due to my knowledge of him and net skepticism and
Brian Siano's post, I suspected a JMS-forger was falsely accusing
Platt. Well, I was wrong on both counts, live and learn.
I make no moral judgment here. I had the idea that these messages
were not the sort that JMS would write, that they were out-of-character.
This is not the same as saying they were of bad character.
>In any event, the Locus piece had all the info I was looking for, so that is
>the end of it for me.
End for me too. I have no stake in the Ellison-Platt flamewar.
samu...@hotmail.com
what happened. He's being criticized for requesting information simply
because he's in the public eye. Attacking someone is very different
from asking for details of an event. There was no speculation about
the charges in his post; no assumptions or accusations, just a simple
request for information.
Sam
-- There is no spoo.
In article <7o66mc$45i$1...@sethf.ne.mediaone.net>,
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Brian Siano
samu...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> JMS is doing just what he said: posting a message with a question about
> what happened. He's being criticized for requesting information simply
> because he's in the public eye. Attacking someone is very different
> from asking for details of an event. There was no speculation about
> the charges in his post; no assumptions or accusations, just a simple
> request for information.
I'd seen JMS's messages before, so seeing the AOL address
didn't surprise me. I _was_ surprised that he'd be asking about the
story on this newsgroup. He's a friend of Harlan's, and I suspect
he'd probably have accumulated details from other people
elsewhere. JMS'd be more likely to be able to confirm or deny
the story, rather than be someone to ask _us_.
Still, it bothered me that the story was still being
circulated even when people were asking if it was true or not.
I know it's hard to ask about the story without divulging
details. One winds up sounding like a James Ellroy gossip
hack-- "What big-name SF writer's looking at hard time for
his lust for young boys? No one's telling but _Hush-hush_
has the scoop..."
But an earlier note had this unsavory aspect-- mentioning
that the suspect was British, but not Christopher Priest, which
was just a roundabout way of communicating Platt's name without
coming out and saying it. I'm not much of a fan of Platt's, aside
from that ugly "Enemies of Ellison" stuff, but I don't like to
see this underhanded stuff.
There are ways of wording a Request for Information that
attempts to avoid spreading what could be a really nasty rumor.
JMS's note was actually pretty straightforward, but given my
doubts about whether it _was_ JMS, I thought a warning about
rumors might be needed. And, since JMS posted what he eventually
_did_ find out-- which turned out to be a lot less than the
"pederasty" stuff a previous poster had mentioned-- I don't
see any reason to slam the guy.
--
Brian Siano: bsi...@cceb.med.upenn.edu
"Most people aren't _fit_ to be snobs."
--Brian Siano
Globalhead
<bsi...@cceb.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
> Not a fate I'd wish on anyone, generally. (Especially if
>the Jerome cops are anything like that lunatic who
>ran the Phoenix PD a few years back.)
>
Joe Arpio [sic] is the lunatic you are refering to. Nothing more than a
brutal fascist, a bigot, and -- probably -- something of a sociopath. Most
cops are bad news; cops in the West are bad news multiplied twice.
For some reason I initially missed this thread. I had written several
killfiles for my newsreader that were supposed to delete certain posts based
on spam keywords (FS, FA, F/A, XXX, Ebay, ect.) For some reason this thread
ran afoul of those filters. (I've since deleted them.)
A quick perusal of the posts involved though indicates I haven't missed
much. Why is this thread relevant to alt.fan.harlan-ellison? Why is the
supposed "Fall of Charles Platt" important to this newsgroup? Frankly, I
find this entire discussion craven and purient. If Harlan wishes to play the
role of bitter, twisted old man, fine. But do we really have to pursue his
vendettes in this newsgroup?
It never ceases to amaze and bewilder me that I often see the worst possible
conduct on the internet, conduct that ostensibly keeps Harlan Ellison away
from the Internet, demonstrated and exemplified on a newsgroup dedicated to
HARLAN ELLISON!
Larry --
"Good Artists copy. Great Artists Steal."
--Pablo Picasso
ICQ No. 37523426
Jason Schmidt
>
> In article <37A50FB7...@cceb.med.upenn.edu> , Brian Siano
> <bsi...@cceb.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
>
> > Not a fate I'd wish on anyone, generally. (Especially if
> >the Jerome cops are anything like that lunatic who
> >ran the Phoenix PD a few years back.)
> >
>
> Joe Arpio [sic] is the lunatic you are refering to. Nothing more than a
> brutal fascist, a bigot, and -- probably -- something of a sociopath. Most
> cops are bad news; cops in the West are bad news multiplied twice.
Nope. Arpaio (however the fuck you spell it) is the Sherrif of the
county that Pheonix is in, so he's probably got nothing to do with the
arrest and has no jurisdiction in the city of Pheonix.
He's also the most popular elected official in the entire state - but
then, we are talking about Arizona...
--
Codeine: tugboat captain, King of Spain, ANTIFA!
Brian Siano
Since I was the guy who, only half-remembering the details,
said the guy ran the Phoenix PD, I apologize for my error.
I will, however, endorse the appraisal of the guy as a sociopath,
a brute, a fascist, and a bigot. He really is everything that's
wrong both with America and law enforcement, and in a civilized
world, he'd be kept in a cage so children will feel safer.
Globalhead
<cod...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Globalhead wrote:
>>
>> In article <37A50FB7...@cceb.med.upenn.edu> , Brian Siano
>> <bsi...@cceb.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>
>> > Not a fate I'd wish on anyone, generally. (Especially if
>> >the Jerome cops are anything like that lunatic who
>> >ran the Phoenix PD a few years back.)
>> >
>>
>> Joe Arpio [sic] is the lunatic you are refering to. Nothing more than a
>> brutal fascist, a bigot, and -- probably -- something of a sociopath. Most
>> cops are bad news; cops in the West are bad news multiplied twice.
>
>Nope. Arpaio (however the fuck you spell it) is the Sherrif of the
>county that Pheonix is in, so he's probably got nothing to do with the
>arrest and has no jurisdiction in the city of Pheonix.
>
>He's also the most popular elected official in the entire state - but
>then, we are talking about Arizona...
>
My apologies. I must've gotten my elected Sheriffs confused.
Jason Schmidt
>
>
> I will, however, endorse the appraisal of the guy as a sociopath,
> a brute, a fascist, and a bigot. He really is everything that's
> wrong both with America and law enforcement, and in a civilized
> world, he'd be kept in a cage so children will feel safer.
What is it about these "hardline-to-the-point-of-being-bizzare" people
that strikes such a chord with populist types? I don't have any
particular beef with law enforcement (I actually tend to side with them
far more often than not) but guys like this are just spooky.
But then again, some little part of me (reptilian hindbrain?) felt a
little surge of "Yeah, that'll teach 'em" when I first heard of his
desert-tent prison policy. Fortunately I'm smart enough to realize that
he's just *wrong* and this sort of thing is not the direction our nation
needs to be headed.
Evidently the goodly folk of Arizona feel differently. Isn't that the
state that originally refused to acknowlege MLK Day?
--
Codeine: "You don't look like your average hortifuckingculturalist..."
-Winston
Globalhead
<cod...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Brian Siano wrote:
>>
>>
>> I will, however, endorse the appraisal of the guy as a sociopath,
>> a brute, a fascist, and a bigot. He really is everything that's
>> wrong both with America and law enforcement, and in a civilized
>> world, he'd be kept in a cage so children will feel safer.
>
>What is it about these "hardline-to-the-point-of-being-bizzare" people
>that strikes such a chord with populist types? I don't have any
>particular beef with law enforcement (I actually tend to side with them
>far more often than not) but guys like this are just spooky.
>
>But then again, some little part of me (reptilian hindbrain?) felt a
>little surge of "Yeah, that'll teach 'em" when I first heard of his
>desert-tent prison policy. Fortunately I'm smart enough to realize that
>he's just *wrong* and this sort of thing is not the direction our nation
>needs to be headed.
<rant> The reason you recognize that the attitude ennumerated above is
unhelpful and, in the long run, extremely destructive is because you are
THINKING! Political debate is no longer based on thoughtful consideration of
facts (perhaps, it never was), but is now based on emotion and sloganeering.
Example: politician A. says that when he's elected he'll clean up the
streets and make City X livable for its hard-working (read white) majority.
Now, no one bothers to ask the obvious follow-up question: How? How do you
plan to make the streets "safe". The electorate doesn't care, nor doesn't it
seem very much to care; the journalists, for the most part, are far to busy
covering politics from a horse race-like prespective -- ie who's up, who's
down; who's winning, who's losing; and the politicians have no reason to
provide specifics, and have really no idea how to implement these great
plans, because they don't know! They are just picking issues that test well
with the public and are easily reduced to soundbites.
So we get leaders who are either totally incompetent, and merely puppets for
their own staff. Or we get truly dangerous MCarthyite demagogues like Joe
Arpaio. </rant>
>
>Evidently the goodly folk of Arizona feel differently. Isn't that the
>state that originally refused to acknowlege MLK Day?
Yes. Arizona's political system is riddled with corruption, race-baiting,
in-fighting, and Machiavellian chicanery. Remember, this is the state Barry
Goldwater came from.
Somshoe
1)Jerome is quite a ways from Phoenix and is not even in Maricopa County.
2)Joe Arpaio is the sheriff of Maricopa County.
3)Arpaio is not and has never been chief of Phoenix Police Department.
As Harlan has said: Everyone is not entitled to an opinion; everyone is
entitled to an informed opinion.
Hope this helps,
Stuart
c...@panix.com
A decade or so ago (!) I started a "Victim Support Group," to some extent
humorously intended (although some Ellison fans have no sense of humor at
all where their mentor is concerned), presenting documented case histories
as a means to suggest that my dear friend Harlan Ellison might reconsider
using various people on his "enemies list" as subject matter in some
not-very-factual rants at comic-book conventions. The group lived and died
within about six months, maybe less. Since then I have stopped writing
science fiction and I have no idea what H.Ellison is doing or not doing.
It's all very long ago and very far away, from my perspective.
And this makes me suitable material in his fan group?!
Anyway: The news item in Locus is inaccurate. No felony charge was filed.
I have written to C.N.Brown and hope/expect a correction in the next
issue. His mistake was understandable (it was based on an initial anxious
report circulated by a friend of mine, when I had no online access myself)
but should have been checked before publication. A more accurate update is
in the current Ansible.
My life in a small Arizona town remains more eventful than I would like,
but that's another story which can be told some other time and definitely
in some other place.
As for the other rumors I have heard re my life and times--if anyone can
offer a proper source and evidence, I will be happy to respond. Otherwise,
why bother?
--Charles Platt
Barney Dannelke
>From what I learned today, the arrest *did* take place. The word out of
>Jerome, Arizona from the deputy sherrif who arrested him is that Charles Platt
>was arrested and released on bail. He has apparently been bound over for the
>county clerk's office.
>
>Many conflicting reports on the actual charges.
> jms
from Charles Platt in Ansible:
Charles Platt on Locus: `A notoriously unreliable American sf
newszine has published a gossip item claiming that I have been
charged with four offenses, one carrying a potential 10-year
jail term. This statement is untrue and actionable. The charge
was not filed, because of lack of evidence.'
Hostile hearsay had led police to search his house
for nonexistent drugs.
So my questions are;
Does an arrest with no charges filed mean he was or wasn't
bound over for the Grand Jury phase?
Charles Platt only says that;
"No felony charge was filed."
Were other charges filed?
Where do the "conflicting reports on the actual charges" come from?
Is LOCUS planning on printing a retraction?
Is Charles Platt planning on taking any action against LOCUS?
and finally, since Charles Platt writes;
"His [ie. LOCUS's] mistake was understandable (it was based on an
initial anxious
report circulated by a friend of mine"
What sort of friend circulates "gossip" that one has been arrested and
charged with a felony?
Barney Dannelke
Brian Siano
Barney Dannelke wrote:
>
> from Charles Platt in Ansible:
>
> Charles Platt on Locus: `A notoriously unreliable American sf
> newszine has published a gossip item claiming that I have been
> charged with four offenses, one carrying a potential 10-year
> jail term. This statement is untrue and actionable. The charge
> was not filed, because of lack of evidence.'
> Hostile hearsay had led police to search his house
> for nonexistent drugs.
>
> So my questions are;
... really laboring over details, basically. Recall,
everyone, that when the arrest was first mentioned here,
it was about an unnamed EOE author busted for _pederasty_--
and several of us agreed that it shouldn't be circulated
until facts could be checked. Then JMS provided us with a
report that, despite Charles Platt's reply, could be checked,
at least.
And Platt contests the claims made in the item-- and
frankly, unless I hear otherwise, I'll regard his claims as
credible and reasonable. It sounds like the local cops got
a groundless tip that Platt had drugs in his possession,
arrested him, and then dropped the charges for lack of
evidence. The friend might've given the wrong details to
Locus, or Locus garbled the account.
Either way, I don't see any reason to nitpick
Platt's account on the basis of another secondhand account.
> Does an arrest with no charges filed mean he was or wasn't
> bound over for the Grand Jury phase?
>
> Charles Platt only says that;
> "No felony charge was filed."
>
> Were other charges filed?
And if there were... how much fuss would you
make over a _misdemeanor_ charge?
> Where do the "conflicting reports on the actual charges" come from?
Ever play "whisper down the lane?"
> Is LOCUS planning on printing a retraction?
Probably a correction, if needed.
> Is Charles Platt planning on taking any action against LOCUS?
Why? He'd have to prove both falsity and intent to defame,
and Locus's alleged mistake is probably just an artifact of
journalism. If Locus prints a correction, then that's it.
> and finally, since Charles Platt writes;
>
> "His [ie. LOCUS's] mistake was understandable (it was based on an
> initial anxious
> report circulated by a friend of mine"
>
> What sort of friend circulates "gossip" that one has been arrested and
> charged with a felony?
One who's anxious over the arrest of a friend, and who's
probably not fluent in the nuances of arrest procedure?
Globalhead
<bsi...@cceb.med.upenn.edu> wrote:
>>
>> Were other charges filed?
>
> And if there were... how much fuss would you
>make over a _misdemeanor_ charge?
>
I can see the subject line now: "Enemies of Ellison FALL! Charles Platt
ticketed for driving 55 in a 45 mph zone! :)
Good points all, Brian.
Larry --
"Opinions are like assholes. Every one has one."
ICQ No. 37523426
c...@panix.com
I still don't know why you or anyone else is interested, but, since you
ask:
> Does an arrest with no charges filed mean he was or wasn't
> bound over for the Grand Jury phase?
An arrest may be made "on suspicion." The warrant must be signed by a
judge who agrees there is sufficient suspicion. Whether a judge makes this
determination may depend on the personality of the judge, the nature of
the alleged offense, the area of the country (rural or urban), and so on.
Subsequently, if no charges are filed, the whole thing is dropped. No
grand jury convenes, and bail money (if any) is refunded.
> Charles Platt only says that;
> "No felony charge was filed."
> Were other charges filed?
Yes, misdemeanor as previously mentioned in Locus.
> Where do the "conflicting reports on the actual charges" come from?
Mainly from different people writing reports at different times, without
dating their reports. A legal action often progresses through many phases.
If you don't define the date at which you are reporting on a case, your
report will conflict with other earlier, or later, reports.
> Is LOCUS planning on printing a retraction?
Ask Locus. I have no idea.
> Is Charles Platt planning on taking any action against LOCUS?
No.
> What sort of friend circulates "gossip" that one has been arrested and
> charged with a felony?
The word "gossip" is yours, not mine, I think. At the time my friend
circulated his report, no one knew how the state would proceed with its
case. My friend assumed the worst. His report was circulated to a list of
about 30 people, some of whom are friends of mine who might have been
willing to lend assistance if necessary. His report was not intended to be
public.
I still have no idea why this topic has popped up here on a list devoted
to another writer entirely.
> Barney Dannelke
c...@panix.com
> I can see the subject line now: "Enemies of Ellison FALL! Charles Platt
> ticketed for driving 55 in a 45 mph zone! :)
For the record, the word "enemies" referred to a list of people,
maintained by HE, whom he classified as enemies. Within two or three
weeks, after the name of the group was misunderstood to mean a group of
people who regarded themselves as enemies, the group was renamed "Victims
of Ellison," as a somewhat self-satirical support group. It retained that
name for the rest of its existence--about 6 months. However, Ellison fans
always prefer the original name because it sounds more pejorative,
combative, hostile...whatever.
This was all rather a long time ago. I'm surprised anyone even remembers.
Bill Warren
>
>For the record, the word "enemies" referred to a list of people,
>maintained by HE, whom he classified as enemies.
Not true. The list was created by those who felt they had been identified as
enemies by Ellison. It was they who came up with the name, and later changed
it to "Victims..." etc.
Bill Warren
>
>I still have no idea why this topic has popped up here on a list devoted
>to another writer entirely.
Of course you know why.
Bud Webster
>I still have no idea why this topic has popped up here on a list devoted
>to another writer entirely.
Urm, aren't you being a little disingenuous here?
--
Aniara Books is a wholly-owned subsidiary of absolutely nothing
or nobody but me. I got a catalog, or you can go to
http://www.abebooks.com/home/budwebster to see what I've got.
I'm easy either way.
Barney Dannelke
Dannelke wrote;
>> What sort of friend circulates "gossip" that one has been arrested and
>> charged with a felony?
>
Platt wrote;
>The word "gossip" is yours, not mine, I think.
and I respond -
Yes, gossip is an ugly word. I took that from the Ansible quote used
to slam LOCUS. If it wasn't a quote then it was a contextual reference
to whoever wrote that paragraph.. Not my word. My choice probably
would have been "article" or "reportage".
>
>I still have no idea why this topic has popped up here on a list devoted
>to another writer entirely.
Although others have beaten me to the response on this one...
Sure you don't. As if nobody here has ever heard of THRUST, Ansible,
The Comics Journal, SF Chronicle, CBG, LOCUS, or Fantagraphics.
Don't we wish this was a place devoted to the work of Harlan Ellison.
For that you have to go to the Islets of Langerhans. Then it would be
off topic. I wouldn't have started this thread the way jms did, but it
certainly is on topic.
Having said that, I appreciate your responding to my questions.
Almost everything said up to that point served only to muddy the
waters. In those circumstances, it has been my experiance that people
will always assume the worst.
Barney Dannelke
Globalhead
I didn't know that. I was just using the previous subject line for parody
(but, alas, it ain't funny if you have to explain it).
Globalhead
bill...@aol.com.exx (Bill Warren) wrote:
>>From: c...@panix.com
>
>>
>>I still have no idea why this topic has popped up here on a list devoted
>>to another writer entirely.
>
>Of course you know why.
>
>
Uh, because alt.fan.harlan-ellison is filled stupidity, maliciouness,
hatred, and a group of overgrown fanboys who try to mimic Harlan Ellison's
every gesticulation?
Just a thought.
Bud Webster
>In article <19990813020702...@ng-cf1.aol.com> ,
>bill...@aol.com.exx (Bill Warren) wrote:
>
>>>From: c...@panix.com
>>
>>>
>>>I still have no idea why this topic has popped up here on a list devoted
>>>to another writer entirely.
>>
>>Of course you know why.
>>
>>
>
>Uh, because alt.fan.harlan-ellison is filled stupidity, maliciouness,
>hatred, and a group of overgrown fanboys who try to mimic Harlan Ellison's
>every gesticulation?
>
>Just a thought.
Not a terribly intelligent one. If you're so smart, why ain't you
rich?
Brian Siano
c...@panix.com wrote:
>
> I still have no idea why this topic has popped up here on a list devoted
> to another writer entirely.
Charles, I hope you've seen my previous notes regarding
those accounts of your arrest, so you know I try to be fair here.
But about this continual "I have no idea why I'm being discussed
on the Ellison newsgroup" stuff is just plain silly.
You've been on the Net long enough to know that chatter on
these newsgroups can be pretty far-ranging, regardless of the
nominal topic of the newsgroup. And newsgroups devoted to a
particular person and his/her work are always going to have
chatter about that person's life as well. And fans always have
an interest in those odd details and minor anecdotes of the person's
life--including "Hey, here's an item about this guy who turned
up in X's life twenty years ago."
Regardess of how short the duration of the Enemies/Victims
of Ellison, or how long ago it existed, it's part of Ellison's
history. It was a part of the fan subculture, and it spawned at least
one newsletter, a huge article in _Gauntlet_, and a number of nasty
Letters to various Editors.
But you obviously _know_ this. I can understand your desire
to set the record straight on your recent arrest, but this "I don't
understand..." pose really isn't working for you.
Bill Warren
>But you obviously _know_ this. I can understand your desire
>to set the record straight on your recent arrest, but this "I don't
>understand..." pose really isn't working for you.
Perhaps this should be termed the, "Who, moi?" defense.
c...@panix.com
> But you obviously _know_ this. I can understand your desire
> to set the record straight on your recent arrest, but this "I don't
> understand..." pose really isn't working for you.
Fair enough; point taken. But I really do find it odd to be the topic of a
thread here, bearing in mind the length of time that has passed, my own
total lack of involvement in science fiction or fantasy at this point, the
lack of any SF relevance in the thread, and the lack of any connection
between my life and Ellison's life (so far as I am aware) for what--ten
years? Eight years?
I mean, the supposed subject of this news group is the writing, and
perhaps the life, of one particular writer. I have had absolutely nothing
to do with this life or writing for a very long time. So, I feel
irrelevant. But if other people find me relevant, of course this is their
right.
As for Fantagraphics (which someone else mentioned), I never had any
involvement with them, unless you count my attendance, as a member of the
public, at the libel trial.
As for "muddying the waters" by answering someone's questions here, my
answers seemed perfectly clear to me. If however unanswered questions
still remain, I may make another attempt to answer them--assuming anyone
cares. I still think you guys must have much better things to do than
discuss Charles Platt.
c...@panix.com
Sorry, but I have seen the list with my own eyes. It may not exist
anymore, but used to.
Barney Dannelke
> the lack of any connection
>between my life and Ellison's life (so far as I am aware) for what--ten
>years? Eight years?
from the Islets of Langerhans:
"The text of The Book on the Edge of Forever (under its original UK
title, The Last Deadloss Visions) used to be available on the World
Wide Web, but it was removed in early 1998, apparently at the author's
request. "
[This would be 2 and a half years after it's announced removal in
Ansible or, to look at it another way, less than 15 months ago.]
From Ansible #85;
V.o.E. R.I.P?
`Victims of Ellison' has been laid to rest, says Charles Platt:
`Moved (somewhat) by Mr Ellison's claims that the VoE support group
took six months out of his working life and reduced his wife to tears
(supposedly, she sat on the end of his bed sobbing "Why won't they
leave us alone?")
I decided to suspend operations and returned the many cheques
received from eager subscribers. I hadn't expected that my little
exercise in self defence would generate such traumatic repercussions.
I have accumulated a two-inch-thick file of testimonials, allegations,
and complaints by various victims, as well as a large mailing list of
interested parties, and it would take very little trouble to resurrect
VoE if this should ever seem necessary.'
>As for Fantagraphics (which someone else mentioned), I never had any
>involvement with them, unless you count my attendance, as a member of the
>public, at the libel trial.
If it needs to be said - Fantagraphics is the American publisher of
"The Book on the Edge of Forever" aka "The Last Deadloss Visions".
This text has comments by Charles Platt within the text. To my
knowledge it is still available from Fantagraphics. I never said you
received pay from Fantagraphics, only that people steeped in the life
of Harlan Ellison keep coming across your name in relationship to
these publishing entities.
So, rather than being completely removed from criticising Harlan for a
period of 10 years;
1.] Your on-line presence in this regard ceased 15 months ago.
2.] Your American published criticism via Fantagraphics are ongoing
3.] You reserve the right to "resurrect VoE if this should ever seem
necessary."
>As for "muddying the waters" by answering someone's questions here, my
>answers seemed perfectly clear to me.
That's as may be, but your answers, prior to my questions of 8/11/99
had everything to do with what didn't happen and nothing to do with
what did happen or how such false reports could have been propogated.
"someone" is
Barney Dannelke
c...@panix.com
> from the Islets of Langerhans:
> "The text of The Book on the Edge of Forever (under its original UK
> title, The Last Deadloss Visions) used to be available on the World
> Wide Web, but it was removed in early 1998, apparently at the author's
> request. "
If you are arguing that I am still actively imbroiled in some long-lost
foolishness simply because a short piece text that I wrote many years ago
was still in print until recently in a small-press item that I did not
edit or publish, then there is no further point in trying to communicate
with you on a rational basis. You might just as well argue that I am still
at odds with, say, Brian Aldiss as a result of a review I wrote in 1966,
because the fanzine is still available via specialty dealers.
> 1.] Your on-line presence in this regard ceased 15 months ago.
> 2.] Your American published criticism via Fantagraphics are ongoing
> 3.] You reserve the right to "resurrect VoE if this should ever seem
> necessary."
Of course I reserve the right to defend myself if attacked. But now you
are confusing the FUTURE with the present tense.
> That's as may be, but your answers, prior to my questions of 8/11/99
> had everything to do with what didn't happen and nothing to do with
> what did happen or how such false reports could have been propogated.
I told you how the inaccurate report was propagated. I told you very
clearly. As for discussing, here, the additional details of a legal
situation which has nothing to do with you, science fiction, or Harlan
Ellison, I must agree I feel no great motivation to do so.
Bud Webster
>Barney Dannelke <danne...@enter.net> wrote:
>> from the Islets of Langerhans:
>> "The text of The Book on the Edge of Forever (under its original UK
>> title, The Last Deadloss Visions) used to be available on the World
>> Wide Web, but it was removed in early 1998, apparently at the author's
>> request. "
>
>If you are arguing that I am still actively imbroiled in some long-lost
>foolishness simply because a short piece text that I wrote many years ago
>was still in print until recently in a small-press item that I did not
>edit or publish, then there is no further point in trying to communicate
>with you on a rational basis. You might just as well argue that I am still
>at odds with, say, Brian Aldiss as a result of a review I wrote in 1966,
>because the fanzine is still available via specialty dealers.
Oh, come on. If you knew it was in print and did nothing to pull it
from publication, then you'd best be prepared to deal with any and all
feedback.
Look, Charles, this isn't rocket science. You took Ellison to task,
at length and publicly, for something he *didn't* do. Whether or not
you were justified, or whether it was any of your business, is
debateable. The fact remains that it was widely-read and commented
upon for a significant period of time, and you even chose to elaborate
upon the original with an updated version. If you made any attempt to
withdraw it from public perusal before 1998, I'm unaware of it; please
feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken.
I don't know how long the Fantagraphics version was in print, but are
you trying to say that it was done without your knowledge and/or
permission? If so, you were clearly entitled to take some kind of
legal action. Again, if you did, I'm unaware of it. Did you? If
not, and if it continued in print with your (tacit or otherwise)
approvel, then you've got little, if any, room to bitch and moan about
"foolishness".
And I really don't think you expect any of us to buy that something
actively in print and for sale from the publisher and a second-hand
copy of a thirty-plus-year old fanzine on some dealer's table at a con
are analogous. We ain't stupid, Charles.
Your attempts to abrogate responsibility for having done so are
getting pretty damned specious. You buttered your bread when you
decided to criticise Ellison's non-publication of a goddam book, don't
whine because you're forced to sleep on it.
c...@panix.com
> Oh, come on. If you knew it was in print and did nothing to pull it
I had no idea it was still in print. How would I know? Do you imagine I
peruse tha Fantagraphics catalog? I doubt that I have ever seen their
catalog. But, anyway, even if I had known it was in print, there is no way
that the publisher would have responded if I had demanded that it should
be withdrawn from distribution. The idea is absurd. I donated some
reminiscences to a friend's project, many years ago; case closed.
> Look, Charles, this isn't rocket science. You took Ellison to task,
> at length and publicly, for something he *didn't* do.
What was that? He certainly lied about me repeatedly and publicly; I have
heard the tapes.
> I don't know how long the Fantagraphics version was in print, but are
> you trying to say that it was done without your knowledge and/or
> permission?
You seem to be under the illusion that I control my text in some way, in
this project. I DONATED it. I'm not even sure who controls copyright.
Priest, probably.
> Your attempts to abrogate responsibility for having done so are
> getting pretty damned specious. You buttered your bread when you
> decided to criticise Ellison's non-publication of a goddam book, don't
> whine because you're forced to sleep on it.
I buttered my bread? You mean, you are under the impression I was paid?!
Absolutely not. Nor did it benefit me in any other way I can think of.
You have to remember that things which seem Awfully Significant to the
Ellison fan seem--well, a bit less important to most other people. I've
been the target of various literary attacks myself over the years (not
least the one in Gauntlet, which was so riddled with misquotes,
misperceptions, and inaccuracies, I didn't even bother to respond). I
don't think it matters. Life goes on. The attacks generally are irrelevant
to book sales or reputation.
In any case, I consider my own tabulation (in Patchin Review, c.1980) of
the mortality rate of Last Dangerous Visions contributors (based on
actuarial tables) was far more to the point than the Priest study. I
suppose I should go back and check whether my predictions have turned out
to be accurate.
This exercise, incidentally, was not merely a prank; a dear friend of
mine, who sold his first and only story to LDV, died before he could see
it in print. This bothered me, and I wondered how many other contributors
might suffer a similar fate. I still wonder.
I realize we're a bit off-topic here. But that's what happen when you lead
an old fart down memory lane. He starts remembering stuff.
--C
Prodigal
<c...@panix.com> wrote in message news:7p0arc$opl$2...@news.panix.com...
>
> However, Ellison fans
> always prefer the original name because it sounds more pejorative,
> combative, hostile...whatever.
Actually, I once worked with a member of the group who proudly called it the
Enemies.