Babylon 5- Deadly Relations- Bester's Ascendant
Aaron Sutton
Deadly Relations.
Excellent novel. Definitely expands on how Bester becomes who he is.
Interesting more is the novel refers back to a previous novel. You'll know
which one when you read the book, don't want to spoil it.
The novel is very well written, I think Keyes is probably the best B5 author
to date.
Looking Forward to the final novel, Final Reckoning: The Fate of Bester
WARNING SPOILER INFO BELOW WARNING WARNING SPOILER
I attended the MegaCon 99 and jms told us the final novel backtracks the
death of Bester and that the hunter becomes the hunted. Meaning that
Garibaldi hunts down Bester after the fall of psi-corp. From what I remember
the book begins after the telepath war, but flashes back to what happened.
I did paraphrase what jms told us.
aaron
Von Bruno
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Aaron Sutton" <Gari...@worldnet.att.net>:
<<I attended the MegaCon 99 and jms told us the final novel backtracks the
death of Bester and that the hunter becomes the hunted. Meaning that Garibaldi
hunts down Bester after the fall of psi-corp. From what I remember the book
begins after the telepath war, but flashes back to what happened.>>
I, for one, cannot bring myself to purchase a book that covers ground that
should have been covered in the Babylon-5 television series.
I believe that one should not subsidize such a cheat, otherwise, other shows
may feel empowered to take financial advantage of their viewership.
Fandom should not be allowed to be defined as dumb fan.
-Von Bruno-
Jms at B5
>should have been covered in the Babylon-5 television series.
>
1) The B5 series was never about the Psi Corps, it was about the station and
the people who live there.
2) Should the show have told everything there was about IPX, the Psi Corps,
EarthDome, and all of the various institutions involved? Show me any series
ever created that can do that.
3) The Psi Corps books cover over a hundred years of history, and Bester's
final fate comes years after the events of the B5 storyline. There is NO WAY
to include all of that in any one series. You are asking the impossible, and
complaining because we cannot do what simply cannot be done by any series,
ever, anywhere, ever created.
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
B5 Official Fan Club at:
http://www.thestation.com
daziz
vonb...@aol.com (Von Bruno) wrote:
> I, for one, cannot bring myself to purchase a book that covers ground that
> should have been covered in the Babylon-5 television series.
Well, I don't subscribe to this view. B5 was the story about B5 and
what part it played in a certain story. The Telepath War, while very
interesting, is not necessarily part of the B5 story per se. It is a side
story, much like Crusade. To me it's like saying all the In the Beginning
should have been in the B5 series cause it shows so much of the story of
B5.
> I believe that one should not subsidize such a cheat, otherwise, other shows
> may feel empowered to take financial advantage of their viewership.
I don't feel it is any worse that movie that leave room for a sequel, or a
novelist who writes a book with the intent to do a series of them.
--
Deb Aziz
Lib...@aol.com
Corun MacAnndra
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>should have been covered in the Babylon-5 television series.
And just when did you stop paying attention? There was a five year arc.
The Teep War happend after the end of the arc, and it had no relevence
to the final episode. It's also too complex a plotline to be given any
significant place in the final episode beyond the mention made by ISN
at the beginning. So where should the Teep War have been covered so as
to both do it justice and remain true to the real arc of the series?
When you write your own television show, then you can tell people what
ground should or shouldn't be covered.
>I believe that one should not subsidize such a cheat, otherwise, other shows
>may feel empowered to take financial advantage of their viewership.
And you're probably one of those who thinks the Tooth Fairy brings you
the internet for free too. TANSTAAFL!
Corun
j...@gte.net
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> <<I attended the MegaCon 99 and jms told us the final novel backtracks the
> death of Bester and that the hunter becomes the hunted. Meaning that Garibaldi
> hunts down Bester after the fall of psi-corp. From what I remember the book
> begins after the telepath war, but flashes back to what happened.>>
>
> should have been covered in the Babylon-5 television series.
Gee, I always thought JMS defined what was and was not in the series.
> I believe that one should not subsidize such a cheat, otherwise, other shows
> may feel empowered to take financial advantage of their viewership.
I don't figure giving me MORE story after the promised 5-year arc is
over is cheating me. I appreciate getting more of it, without
self-important jackasses in network offices being able to interfere.
> Fandom should not be allowed to be defined as dumb fan.
?? Does not follow. Dumb has nothing to do with this.
> -Von Bruno-
Jon Schild
Joe Schulte
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: Aaron Sutton" <Gari...@worldnet.att.net>:
: <<I attended the MegaCon 99 and jms told us the final novel backtracks the
: death of Bester and that the hunter becomes the hunted. Meaning that Garibaldi
: hunts down Bester after the fall of psi-corp. From what I remember the book
: begins after the telepath war, but flashes back to what happened.>>
: I, for one, cannot bring myself to purchase a book that covers ground that
: should have been covered in the Babylon-5 television series.
: I believe that one should not subsidize such a cheat, otherwise, other shows
: may feel empowered to take financial advantage of their viewership.
And if a book is before the well-defined arc of the show? Say, the first
Human-Centauri meeting?
It had an effect on the show, but wasn't part of the arc.
You *might* have cause to bitch about the Centauri trilogy, but I don't
see how the Psi Corps trilogy is a legit target for your rant.
David Nott
>
> I, for one, cannot bring myself to purchase a book that covers ground that
> should have been covered in the Babylon-5 television series.
>
> I believe that one should not subsidize such a cheat, otherwise, other shows
> may feel empowered to take financial advantage of their viewership.
Did you know you sound a bit like Homer Simpson?
MARGE: "What's wrong?"
HOMER: "There's nothing good on TV."
MARGE: "Why don't you read a book?"
HOMER: "Because I want to DECREASE my boredom!"
More B5 stories, in any medium, that have the creator's approval as being canonical
are to be appreciated, not disdained. Reading is ALSO a form of entertainment.
B Poulton
>should have been covered in the Babylon-5 television series.
>I believe that one should not subsidize such a cheat, otherwise, other shows
>may feel empowered to take financial advantage of their viewership.
>-Von Bruno-
I agree with you. One should not subsidize a cheat. However, IMO, B5 is not
a cheat. B5 was intended to cover 5 years of the stations history. We got
glimpses of what came before and after but it is mainly that period of
time. There's no way 5 years could cover the universe JMS imagined and the
books and movies are intended to fill in those other areas. But they
weren't necessary to follow the series.
Now, X-files *was* a cheat. From what I understand seeing the movie was
instrumental in following where the new season picked up. So I don't (and
won't) watch anything involving Chris Carter.
And JMS, if you're still reading this thread, thanks. Finally got to see
all of season 5. There were high points and low points, fast points and
slow points, and things I would have rather had you cover instead of what
you did. But that's me and there ain't no way you're going to please
everyone all the time. I finished SIL with a sense of closure. Sadness that
it's over, but closure neverless. It's a shame about Crusade but at least
you're not wandering off into the hinterland. Looking forward to seeing
what that fertile little mind of yours comes up with next. Best of luck.
--
alex...@trythis.dsoe.com (Bob Poulton) Remove the 'trythis.' to reply.
(for Usenet only) (if I remember to stick it in)
"Conclusions are what happens when you get bored of thinking about a
subject"
Ian Galbraith
:>I, for one, cannot bring myself to purchase a book that covers ground that
:>should have been covered in the Babylon-5 television series.
:1) The B5 series was never about the Psi Corps, it was about the station and
:the people who live there.
:2) Should the show have told everything there was about IPX, the Psi Corps,
:EarthDome, and all of the various institutions involved? Show me any series
:ever created that can do that.
Fair enough, but you have to realise that you yourself created the
expectation that the Telepath War would be shown with the way it was built
up in the 4th and 5th seasons. In hindsight it's obvious why it couldn't be
shown, but it was built up within the series.
[snip]
Be Seeing You
--
Ian Galbraith
Email: igalb...@ozonline.com.au ICQ#: 7849631
"It is easier perceive error than to find truth, for the former lies on
the surface and is easily seen, while the latter lies in the depths,
where few are willing to search for it." - Goethe
Ian Galbraith
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:Aaron Sutton" <Gari...@worldnet.att.net>:
:<<I attended the MegaCon 99 and jms told us the final novel backtracks the
:death of Bester and that the hunter becomes the hunted. Meaning that Garibaldi
:hunts down Bester after the fall of psi-corp. From what I remember the book
:begins after the telepath war, but flashes back to what happened.>>
:I, for one, cannot bring myself to purchase a book that covers ground that
:should have been covered in the Babylon-5 television series.
Why SHOULD it have been covered? I know the Telepath War was built up too
much in the series, but that doesn't mean it SHOULD have been there. In
hindsight it shouldn't have been.
Bob Joesting
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>I, for one, cannot bring myself to purchase a book that covers ground that
>should have been covered in the Babylon-5 television series.
It is absurd to expect that all the stories in any
universe would make sense in one teevee show.
>I believe that one should not subsidize such a cheat, otherwise, other shows
>may feel empowered to take financial advantage of their viewership.
How is it a cheat? Some stories in the B5 universe were
part of the arc of B5 and part of the teevee show. Some
stories in that universe are not part of the arc of B5 but
work well as films. Some stories don't work well on the
screen (large or small) and are best told in books or comics.
The Teevee show was the arc of the B5 Station. There are
many other stories in that universe. Any show that has
created a compelling universe and interesting characters can
consider publishing or producing stories that are in the
universe but not part of the focus of the teevee show.
There is nothing dishonest about that.
>Fandom should not be allowed to be defined as dumb fan.
Feel free to define yourself however you wish. I am
glad that there are enough fans who are smart enough to
enjoy the many different stories in the B5 universe when
they are told in the medium that is best for each story.
If all you want is the story of the B5 Station, you got
that in the five seasons. It is a great story. Some
want to know more about the universe.
Bob Joesting <valen (at) psicorps (dot) com>
C. J. Walther
>>I, for one, cannot bring myself to purchase a book that covers ground that
>>should have been covered in the Babylon-5 television series.
>>
>
>1) The B5 series was never about the Psi Corps, it was about the station and
>the people who live there.
>
>2) Should the show have told everything there was about IPX, the Psi Corps,
>EarthDome, and all of the various institutions involved? Show me any series
>ever created that can do that.
>
>3) The Psi Corps books cover over a hundred years of history, and Bester's
>final fate comes years after the events of the B5 storyline. There is NO WAY
>to include all of that in any one series. You are asking the impossible, and
>complaining because we cannot do what simply cannot be done by any series,
>ever, anywhere, ever created.
>
> jms
>
>(jms...@aol.com)
>B5 Official Fan Club at:
>http://www.thestation.com
>
>
>
Agreed Joe, but here is the problem I run across. It seems like very
little happened in Season 5 until the every end. Then we had several
story lines that diverged...Londo and the Keepers Linnear and his
betrayal, G'Kar and Lyta, Sheridan setting up the new government,
Garibaldi and Bester, and the whole new B5 crew. All of these were
worthy stories that frankly didn't get close to being resolved. Then
were hear we are going to resolve some, if not all, of these in book
form. It has the appearance that season 5 was nothing more than a 22
week hype to sell books. That make me feel a little like the guy
above.
Boojie
Von Bruno
Agreed, and I have NEVER said anything to the contrary. It is rather silly, and
groundless, to frame my opinion on the Bester/Psi Corps trilogy as a position
against reading in general.
-Von Bruno-
Steve Brinich
> Agreed Joe, but here is the problem I run across. It seems like very
> little happened in Season 5 until the every end. Then we had several
> story lines that diverged...Londo and the Keepers Linnear and his
> betrayal, G'Kar and Lyta, Sheridan setting up the new government,
> Garibaldi and Bester, and the whole new B5 crew. All of these were
> worthy stories that frankly didn't get close to being resolved. Then
> were hear we are going to resolve some, if not all, of these in book
> form. It has the appearance that season 5 was nothing more than a 22
> week hype to sell books. That make me feel a little like the guy
> above.
I think that it's clear that early fifth season suffered because of the
need to jump-start some story lines after the delays in deciding whether
or not there would *be* a fifth season forced JMS to provide closure at
the end of the fourth season.
How severe this damage was, how well JMS repaired it, etc. are of course
open discussion topics, on which I don't expect consensus anytime soon, if
ever.
--
Steve Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> If the government wants us
http://www.Radix.Net/~steveb to respect the law
89B992BBE67F7B2F64FDF2EA14374C3E it should set a better example
Cronan
>>I, for one, cannot bring myself to purchase a book that covers ground that
>>should have been covered in the Babylon-5 television series.
>>
>
>1) The B5 series was never about the Psi Corps, it was about the station and
>the people who live there.
I agree wholeheartedly, sir.
>2) Should the show have told everything there was about IPX, the Psi Corps,
>EarthDome, and all of the various institutions involved? Show me any series
>ever created that can do that.
Agreed, again. You were perfectly correct in leaving certain aspects
of the B5 universe untouched to both avoid contradiction and allow
future projects niches places to explore. To close up such avenues
would have been, in my opinion, both an artistic and commercial
mistake.
>3) The Psi Corps books cover over a hundred years of history, and Bester's
>final fate comes years after the events of the B5 storyline. There is NO WAY
>to include all of that in any one series. You are asking the impossible, and
>complaining because we cannot do what simply cannot be done by any series,
>ever, anywhere, ever created.
Here I must, unfortunately disagree. The events depicted in
"Sleeping in Light" (i.e. Sheridan's fate) and "Deconstruction of
Falling Stars" took place many years after the B5 storyline. This
had little to do with their inherent drama (or lack there of).
And while I can certainly see how many aspects of a novel are more
conducive to exposition than television, I think it obvious that
through well-written flashbacks, the exceptional expository devices
you've built into the Bab5 universe (ISN, for example) and a link
to the here and now of the Babylon 5 storyline - say a gang of rogue
telepaths - there were many possible ways to include the information
in Keyes' novels in the series itself.
Hence I would assert that neither is impossible.
Cronan
...this is all in my opinion of course
Cronan
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>>should have been covered in the Babylon-5 television series.
>
>The Teep War happend after the end of the arc, and it had no relevence
>to the final episode. It's also too complex a plotline to be given any
>significant place in the final episode beyond the mention made by ISN
>at the beginning. So where should the Teep War have been covered so as
>to both do it justice and remain true to the real arc of the series?
Quoting Joseph Cochran:
Alright, I'll spell it out. There is just as much linking
B5 to the Telepath War as there was linking it to the Shadow War.
There's as much -- if not more -- personal investment of the
characters that we know and love*, there's an exciting change in
store for humanity, there's action, there's damn good drama
waiting to happen, and there's a lot of gray area (who's right?
the Corps? The rogues? Normals?) and no easy answers. It's the
type of conflict that B5 excelled in examining before ItF. It's
also been building over *5* years, getting ready to come to a
head. It's, in short, the most exciting thing that we KNOW will
happen because of the great foreshadowing that has accompanied
it. It was played as a PART of the B5 story arc from Mind Games
all the way down through the end of S4. The Byron Arc *screamed*
that it was about to happen. And then the series ended, cheating
us of it. It is not a "side story", it's part and parcel of the
baggage left over from the First Ones. And yet, it was given
short shrift.
So, the question "why show the Shadow War and not the Telepath
War?" was to indicate that I believe the Teep War got shafted.
*What investment?
Garibaldi, Lyta and Bester: duh, they're the figureheads of the
three sides involved, a powerful Corpsman, a powerful Rogue and
a powerful Normal. They are the symbolic HEART of the war.
Sheridan & Delenn: controlling the ISA, which cannot be partisan,
yet which cannot stay out of it. They will be the window through
which the other races with teeps will see the conflict (and you
can BET all the other races will be watching, that the fate of
more than just Humans rests on this war) Not to mention their
personal ties to the big 3 above.
Franklin: known to sympathize against the corps, also knowing or
suspecting the link to the First Ones, he is going to be stuck on
the side of Normals whether he likes it or not.
[. . .]
Ivanova: Torn between her past and her future, she'll probably
side with the Rogues, but her position in the EA and her loyalty
to that will demand that she remain loyal to Normals. This War
will touch her more than ANYTHING she ever experienced on the
station.
Lochley and the B5 gang: In addition to its status as a neutral
port (which will make it a stopover point for covert operatives
on all sides of the fight), it's also going to be a Mecca for
the Rogues ("the place where Byron sacrificed himself for us"),
and will be just as overloaded with crises as it was during
the Shadow War. The gang will have PLENTY of stories to tell
after it's over.
>When you write your own television show, then you can tell people what
>ground should or shouldn't be covered.
I *HATE* this kind of argument. Because I haven't produced a TV
show I'm not qualified to judge Babylon 5's artistic merits? It
is my opinion that the teep war got shafted. I can support this
through a cogent argument.
>>I believe that one should not subsidize such a cheat, otherwise, other shows
>>may feel empowered to take financial advantage of their viewership.
>
>And you're probably one of those who thinks the Tooth Fairy brings you
>the internet for free too. TANSTAAFL!
That's not what he said. He has made a decision not to support
the Babylon 5 book series based on the belief that he was cheated
in the past. I respect his decision.
Cronan
Cronan
> Well, I don't subscribe to this view. B5 was the story about B5 and
>what part it played in a certain story. The Telepath War, while very
>interesting, is not necessarily part of the B5 story per se. It is a side
>story, much like Crusade. To me it's like saying all the In the Beginning
>should have been in the B5 series cause it shows so much of the story of
>B5.
As I explained in another post: there is as much, if not more, linking
B5 to the Telepath War as there ever was linking it to the Shadow War.
Cronan
Corun MacAnndra
>Corun MacAnndra wrote in message <7c77th$oj2$1...@callisto.clark.net>...
>>Von Bruno <vonb...@aol.com> wrote:
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>>>I, for one, cannot bring myself to purchase a book that covers ground that
>>>should have been covered in the Babylon-5 television series.
>>
>>And just when did you stop paying attention? There was a five year arc.
>>The Teep War happend after the end of the arc, and it had no relevence
>>to the final episode. It's also too complex a plotline to be given any
>>significant place in the final episode beyond the mention made by ISN
>>at the beginning. So where should the Teep War have been covered so as
>>to both do it justice and remain true to the real arc of the series?
>
>Quoting Joseph Cochran:
>
>B5 to the Telepath War as there was linking it to the Shadow War.
No, there isn't. The Teep War is a small side war that involves only a
selected group of Humanity. It's only the Teeps and Normals on Earth
who are at war with one another. The Shadow War affected all sentient
races and B5 being not only a center for commerce but a focal point
where most of these races could gather was much more crucial to it
than it was to the Teep War. All the rest of your rant is utter
nonesense. Trying to make Lyta, Bester and Garibaldi a One set like
Sinclair, Sheridan and Delenn is really reaching. No, the Teep War
is at best a small chapter in the Great Story.
>>When you write your own television show, then you can tell people what
>>ground should or shouldn't be covered.
>
>I *HATE* this kind of argument. Because I haven't produced a TV
>show I'm not qualified to judge Babylon 5's artistic merits? It
>is my opinion that the teep war got shafted. I can support this
>through a cogent argument.
You can't support anything from cogent argument because you never give
one. If you'd been paying attention you'd see that I never said anyone
was not qualified to judge a work for any reason. What I said was that
when someone is in charge of their own TV show they can tell people
what should or should not be covered during the life of that show.
Neither you nor Von Bruno has any business telling JMS or any other
writer what they should or should not be writing. If you don't like,
don't read it. But don't presume to tell him what he should be doing
to satisfy your piddling ego.
>>>I believe that one should not subsidize such a cheat, otherwise, other shows
>>>may feel empowered to take financial advantage of their viewership.
>>
>>And you're probably one of those who thinks the Tooth Fairy brings you
>>the internet for free too. TANSTAAFL!
>
>That's not what he said. He has made a decision not to support
>the Babylon 5 book series based on the belief that he was cheated
>in the past. I respect his decision.
What he said was JMS is a cheat and a liar attempting to "take advantage"
of his fans. I don't respect that becuase he has only given his uninformed
opinion on the matter. Just as you do more often than not. JMS is a writer
by trade. He's making his living off what he sells to people, and he wants
two things, to write what he wants that people will want to read, and to
make a living doing that. Happily he's been able to do both with B5. And
frankly, I don't really think he makes all that much money off the writings
of other authors. WB would likely make the lion's share of that. In which
case he's satisfying the first part with the spinoff novels.
Corun
Sue Phillips
Brinich <ste...@Radix.Net> wrote:
> I think that it's clear that early fifth season suffered because of the
>need to jump-start some story lines after the delays in deciding whether
>or not there would *be* a fifth season forced JMS to provide closure at
>the end of the fourth season.
> How severe this damage was, how well JMS repaired it, etc. are of course
>open discussion topics, on which I don't expect consensus anytime soon, if
>ever.
Personally, I have no problem buying novels, particularly if they're
canon. I read almost constantly anyway and am always searching out
new things to read.
The one thing I feel a bit trepidatious (is that a word?) about is
whether Bester's final fate equals the one I've created for him in
my head. <g>
Sue
<*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>
Chicks dig the head, man. It's like having a puppy at the
beach--they just want to touch your head. I shoulda shaved
when I was 16...in high school. I wouldn't have had to wait
til I was 19 to...you know."
Jerry Doyle
Brian Watson
> Cronan <h...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >Corun MacAnndra wrote in message <7c77th$oj2$1...@callisto.clark.net>...
> >>Von Bruno <vonb...@aol.com> wrote:
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> >>When you write your own television show, then you can tell people what
> >>ground should or shouldn't be covered.
> >
> >I *HATE* this kind of argument. Because I haven't produced a TV
> >show I'm not qualified to judge Babylon 5's artistic merits? It
> >is my opinion that the teep war got shafted. I can support this
> >through a cogent argument.
>
> You can't support anything from cogent argument because you never give
> one. If you'd been paying attention you'd see that I never said anyone
> was not qualified to judge a work for any reason. What I said was that
> when someone is in charge of their own TV show they can tell people
> what should or should not be covered during the life of that show.
> Neither you nor Von Bruno has any business telling JMS or any other
> writer what they should or should not be writing. If you don't like,
> don't read it. But don't presume to tell him what he should be doing
> to satisfy your piddling ego.
There is absolutely nothing piddling about Cronan's ego.
Tammy Smith
"Same as this" should read "Same as the 'jms sold out because he
continued the B5 story in books' argument".
Whew--got that mistake taken care of!
Tammy
Werner Spahl
> The basis of my belief concerning the Teep War and Bester is simply that Joe
> devoted a lot of screen time developing the Psi Corps thread (all things
> considered at least a full seasons worth), and that the whole telepath angle
> was a movtivating, compelling, cornerstone of the Babylon-5 series itself.
I would rather have seen the Teep War incooperated into the liberation of
Earth, as Earth isn't free while the Psi Corps exists. Instead JMS showed
us the falling of CP which we already saw the results of in Londos dream
and Sheridan flashforward. So two temporarly happy ends were messed up ;)!
--
Werner Spahl (ui2...@sun1.lrz-muenchen.de) Freedom for
"The meaning of my life is to make me crazy!" Vorlonships
Paul McElligott
novels that cover events not shown in the movies? Do they feel "rooked" by
George Lucas because they have to pay extra to get these parts of the story?
Some people are just looking for reasons to complain and no explanation, no
matter how reasonable, will ever satisfy them. I, for one, will gladly the pay
the minimal price of a paperback book to enjoy more quality Babylon 5 stories,
especially when they are as good as Deadly Relations.
Jms at B5 wrote:
> >I, for one, cannot bring myself to purchase a book that covers ground that
> >should have been covered in the Babylon-5 television series.
> >
>
> 1) The B5 series was never about the Psi Corps, it was about the station and
> the people who live there.
>
> 2) Should the show have told everything there was about IPX, the Psi Corps,
> EarthDome, and all of the various institutions involved? Show me any series
> ever created that can do that.
>
> 3) The Psi Corps books cover over a hundred years of history, and Bester's
> final fate comes years after the events of the B5 storyline. There is NO WAY
> to include all of that in any one series. You are asking the impossible, and
> complaining because we cannot do what simply cannot be done by any series,
> ever, anywhere, ever created.
>
> jms
>
> (jms...@aol.com)
> B5 Official Fan Club at:
> http://www.thestation.com
--
Paul McElligott
"Subvert the dominant paradigm"
Paul McElligott
the course of the series. Who died and left you the final arbiter of what should
or should not be part of the story?
What I loved about B5 is the fact that not everything is resolved all the time,
just like real life.
Von Bruno wrote:
> *Spoiler Space*
>
> *Spoiler Space*
>
> *Spoiler Space*
>
> *Spoiler Space*
>
> *Spoiler Space*
>
> *Spoiler Space*
>
> *Spoiler Space*
>
> *Spoiler Space*
>
> *Spoiler Space*
>
> *Spoiler Space*
>
> Aaron Sutton" <Gari...@worldnet.att.net>:
>
> <<I attended the MegaCon 99 and jms told us the final novel backtracks the
> death of Bester and that the hunter becomes the hunted. Meaning that Garibaldi
> hunts down Bester after the fall of psi-corp. From what I remember the book
> begins after the telepath war, but flashes back to what happened.>>
>
> I, for one, cannot bring myself to purchase a book that covers ground that
> should have been covered in the Babylon-5 television series.
>
> I believe that one should not subsidize such a cheat, otherwise, other shows
> may feel empowered to take financial advantage of their viewership.
>
> Fandom should not be allowed to be defined as dumb fan.
>
> -Von Bruno-
Philip R. Columbus
the opinion that:
# Cronan <h...@mindspring.com> wrote:
# >Corun MacAnndra wrote in message <7c77th$oj2$1...@callisto.clark.net>...
# >>Von Bruno <vonb...@aol.com> wrote:
# >>>*Spoiler Space*
# >>>
# >>>*Spoiler Space*
# >>>
# >>>*Spoiler Space*
# >>>
# >>>*Spoiler Space*
# >>>
# >>>*Spoiler Space*
# >>>
# >>>*Spoiler Space*
# >>>
# >>>*Spoiler Space*
# >>>
# >>>*Spoiler Space*
# >>>
# >>>*Spoiler Space*
# >>>
# >>>*Spoiler Space*
# >>>
# What he said was JMS is a cheat and a liar attempting to "take advantage"
# of his fans. I don't respect that becuase he has only given his uninformed
# opinion on the matter. Just as you do more often than not. JMS is a writer
# by trade. He's making his living off what he sells to people, and he wants
# two things, to write what he wants that people will want to read, and to
# make a living doing that. Happily he's been able to do both with B5. And
# frankly, I don't really think he makes all that much money off the writings
# of other authors. WB would likely make the lion's share of that. In which
# case he's satisfying the first part with the spinoff novels.
#
# Corun
#
#
While I agree with you, it doesn't make a difference. If Von Bruno
doesn't want to support JMS because of slights he perceives, that's his
choice. If you like it, buy it. I think that's what freedom is about.
Philip R. Columbus
philipc...@home.com
http://members.home.com/philipcolumbus/
AOL IM: mr1492
ICQ# 4786099
Powered by OS/2 Warp Ver. 4
* Cum Dignitate Otium - Leisure With Dignity *
Philip R. Columbus
opinion that:
# <<Neither you nor Von Bruno has any business telling JMS or any other writer
# what they should or should not be writing.>> co...@clark.net
#
# I do not have the power to dictate what Joe does or does not write, however, I
# do reserve the right to voice my opinion on Joe's writting or ommissions. Many
# here may disagree with my point-of-view (which is totally cool by me), but
# please let us not distort either the facts or what is said.
#
# The basis of my belief concerning the Teep War and Bester is simply that Joe
# devoted a lot of screen time developing the Psi Corps thread (all things
# considered at least a full seasons worth), and that the whole telepath angle
# was a movtivating, compelling, cornerstone of the Babylon-5 series itself.
#
# Now, JMS may not have intended for the Teep aspects to become a major thread of
# the series, however, a television series is a very organic thing, and by virtue
# of its content and focus may, at times, make promises not originally envisioned
# by its creative staff (no matter how rigidly structured the series itself is).
# In these cases the creative powers-that-be are still responsible for making
# good on those unintentioned promises, and should be judged on whether the
# series was true to itself, and whether it delivered on what it (the series)
# promised (not necessarily what Joe promised)?
#
# Babylon-5 was Joe's baby from inception, however, babies do grow up and
# sometimes not how we expect. JMS, as a writer, I am sure knows this, and JMS,
# as a producer, should have recognized what was happening and adjusted his
# "vision" accordingly in order to properly compensate (if, in fact, he truly
# never intended, or envisioned, the Teep/Psi Corp angle becoming the propelling
# cornerstone that it became).
#
# -Von Bruno-
#
I tend to agree with your assessment of the results but not the cause. I
don't think JMS is a liar or otherwise dishonest; nor do I think he had a
plan years ago to milk money out of the potential B5 fans by producing a
TV series, getting people involved, and then finishing the story in
another medium.
However, your assessment of the Telepath War and it's incompleteness is
bothersome. It was foreshadowed very early in the series; it was
mentioned with regularity; it's characters were vital to the series;
telepaths, through Psi-Corps, were intimately involved in the Shadow war;
it built in season 4; the arrival of Byron and his association with
Psi-Corps seemed to be leading to a conclusion; and then it was dropped.
Cronan
Corun MacAnndra wrote
>>>And just when did you stop paying attention? There was a five year arc.
>>>The Teep War happend after the end of the arc, and it had no relevence
>>>to the final episode. It's also too complex a plotline to be given any
>>>significant place in the final episode beyond the mention made by ISN
>>>at the beginning. So where should the Teep War have been covered so as
>>>to both do it justice and remain true to the real arc of the series?
>>
>>Quoting Joseph Cochran:
>>
>>Alright, I'll spell it out. There is just as much linking
>>B5 to the Telepath War as there was linking it to the Shadow War.
>
>No, there isn't.
Sure there is. There's as much -- if not more -- personal
investment of the characters that we know and love Garibaldi, Lyta
>The Teep War is a small side war that involves only a
>selected group of Humanity.
Bzzzt. Wrong. It'll involve ALL of Humanity and is, at the very
least, as relevant to the B5 story as Earth Civil War. Hell, this
another Civil war with an even deadlier underpinning: race. Such
wars are never easy and much more deadly that mere differences in
ideology. And how do you think the other races'll react when they
see Earth endanger of becoming a telepathic state? These are the
races that have drugged (be it with chemicals or religion) their
own teeps. You don't think they're going to support one side or
the other?
> It's only the Teeps and Normals on Earth
>who are at war with one another.
Says you. Everything we saw on B5 up to that point says differently.
The Shadow War affected all sentient
>races and B5 being not only a center for commerce but a focal point
>where most of these races could gather was much more crucial to it
>than it was to the Teep War.
The Teep War would (or at least should have) touched every single
race with teeps and those without them that feared their what might
come to be should Earth become come to be run by them.
> All the rest of your rant is utter
>nonesense.
Yeah, umm, if it makes you feel better to believe that.
Trying to make Lyta, Bester and Garibaldi a One set like
>Sinclair, Sheridan and Delenn is really reaching.
Who said anything about Sinclair? After the first season he ceased
to be an issue. Lyta, Bester and Garabaldi, on the other hand, are
just as worthy of being the focus of a season's worth of eps as
Sheridan and Delenn were. And we have as much emotion invested in
those three as we ever have Sheridan and Delenn.
> No, the Teep War
>is at best a small chapter in the Great Story.
Yeah, err, right.
>>When you write your own television show, then you can tell people what
>>>ground should or shouldn't be covered.
>>
>>I *HATE* this kind of argument. Because I haven't produced a TV
>>show I'm not qualified to judge Babylon 5's artistic merits? It
>>is my opinion that the teep war got shafted. I can support this
>>through a cogent argument.
>
>You can't support anything from cogent argument because you never give
>one.
Thanks.
> If you'd been paying attention you'd see that I never said anyone
>was not qualified to judge a work for any reason. What I said was that
>when someone is in charge of their own TV show they can tell people
>what should or should not be covered during the life of that show.
Which roughly translates as "JMS is god. He can make no mistakes."
>Neither you nor Von Bruno has any business telling JMS or any other
>writer what they should or should not be writing.
Sure I do. As a consumer, so do you.
> If you don't like,
>don't read it.
How will I know if I don't life it until I've watched it or read it?
But don't presume to tell him what he should be doing
>to satisfy your piddling ego.
My ego isn't piddling; it's well-nigh gargantuan.
>>>And you're probably one of those who thinks the Tooth Fairy brings you
>>>the internet for free too. TANSTAAFL!
>>
>>That's not what he said. He has made a decision not to support
>>the Babylon 5 book series based on the belief that he was cheated
>>in the past. I respect his decision.
>
>What he said was JMS is a cheat and a liar attempting to "take advantage"
>of his fans.
No he didn't. That's how you interpreted what he said. And dubious
interpretation if ever there was one.
> I don't respect that becuase he has only given his uninformed
>opinion on the matter.
You to draw the conclusion that his opinion was uninformed because
it runs contrary to your own.
>Just as you do more often than not.
I take you're upset because I'm always right. And still upset about
that Space Program thing.
> JMS is a writer
>by trade. He's making his living off what he sells to people, and he wants
>two things, to write what he wants that people will want to read, and to
>make a living doing that. Happily he's been able to do both with B5.
Indeed. So?
> And
>frankly, I don't really think he makes all that much money off the writings
>of other authors. WB would likely make the lion's share of that. In which
>case he's satisfying the first part with the spinoff novels.
Heh.
Cronan
Cronan
Paul McElligott wrote
>Do you ever wonder how many of these people have no problem buying Star Wars
>novels that cover events not shown in the movies?
I do.
Do they feel "rooked" by
>George Lucas because they have to pay extra to get these parts of the story?
I do. And don't buy them.
[. . .]
Daryl Nash
> Corun MacAnndra wrote
> <snippage about Teep War>
>
> >Neither you nor Von Bruno has any business telling JMS or any other
> >writer what they should or should not be writing.
>
> Sure I do. As a consumer, so do you.
>
Err. How about "as a literate, intelligent, critical person" or something
similar? A consumer is not necessarily any of those things, but simply one who
buys stuff. I hate the tendency to deify consumers, as though by purchasing a
product one can do no wrong.
But as for the Teep War, you're right, as critical viewers, we had every right
to expect it to be covered in the course of the series.
Daryl
Brian Watson
> Corun MacAnndra wrote
> >The Teep War is a small side war that involves only a
> >selected group of Humanity.
>
> Bzzzt. Wrong. It'll involve ALL of Humanity and is, at the very
> least, as relevant to the B5 story as Earth Civil War. Hell, this
> another Civil war with an even deadlier underpinning: race. Such
> wars are never easy and much more deadly that mere differences in
> ideology. And how do you think the other races'll react when they
> see Earth endanger of becoming a telepathic state? These are the
> races that have drugged (be it with chemicals or religion) their
> own teeps. You don't think they're going to support one side or
> the other?
You're right, it will involve all of humanity. But is that part of the Great
Story "BABYLON 5"? If you want to include everything that involved all of
humanity in a single story, then you're going to have to start at about 5,000 BC
Cronan, because there was a lot of history that involved ALL of humanity. But
not all of it is directly relevant to B5.
> > It's only the Teeps and Normals on Earth
> >who are at war with one another.
> Says you. Everything we saw on B5 up to that point says differently.
>
> The Shadow War affected all sentient
> >races and B5 being not only a center for commerce but a focal point
> >where most of these races could gather was much more crucial to it
> >than it was to the Teep War.
>
> The Teep War would (or at least should have) touched every single
> race with teeps and those without them that feared their what might
> come to be should Earth become come to be run by them.
Oh of course, since all alien races look towards the Human Race as the end all
be all of perfection. Pay attention, Cronan, no other race has anything like
PsiCorp. ALL the other races have been shown to have their TPs integrated in
their society without the big black box that PsiCorp is. The Minbari have TPs
revered as members of the Religious Caste, able to go anywhere and be fed and
clothed by any other Minbari. The Centauri have allowed their TPs to work in
any fashion they enjoy (and apparently very profitably) whether it is with the
military, the Emperor, or freelance. The Narn would LOVE to have TPs, even
though their zeal might go as far to infringe on some rights.
> > No, the Teep War
> >is at best a small chapter in the Great Story.
> Yeah, err, right.
Oh. And you must know better than the man who created the show. Cronan, buy a
clue.
> > If you'd been paying attention you'd see that I never said anyone
> >was not qualified to judge a work for any reason. What I said was that
> >when someone is in charge of their own TV show they can tell people
> >what should or should not be covered during the life of that show.
>
> Which roughly translates as "JMS is god. He can make no mistakes."
When it comes to the social and political influences and actions of those in his
universe, yes, he's flawless. If the reason escapes you, try this .. HE
CREATED IT. He knows the motivations of those in his universe, you don't.
> >Neither you nor Von Bruno has any business telling JMS or any other
> >writer what they should or should not be writing.
>
> Sure I do. As a consumer, so do you.
The like a consumer, vote with your dollar. Go away. Don't spend any money on
it. Leave us. Please.
> > If you don't like,
> >don't read it.
>
> How will I know if I don't life it until I've watched it or read it?
Buy a book, read a little of it, and if it doesn't float your boat take it back
to the store with your receipt and return it. Oh. I'm sorry. Was that too
obvious of a solution?
> But don't presume to tell him what he should be doing
> >to satisfy your piddling ego.
>
> My ego isn't piddling; it's well-nigh gargantuan.
As I pointed out earlier.
> >Just as you do more often than not.
>
> I take you're upset because I'm always right. And still upset about
> that Space Program thing.
Always right? Now you are God? Ahh. Delusions of grandeur strike again.
Steve Brinich
> Oh of course, since all alien races look towards the Human Race as
> the end all be all of perfection. Pay attention, Cronan, no other
> race has anything like PsiCorp. ALL the other races have been shown
> to have their TPs integrated in their society without the big black
> box that PsiCorp is. The Minbari have TPs revered as members of the
> Religious Caste, able to go anywhere and be fed and clothed by any
> other Minbari. The Centauri have allowed their TPs to work in
> any fashion they enjoy (and apparently very profitably) whether it
> is with the military, the Emperor, or freelance.
From what we've seen of Centauri telepaths, they look like ruthless
players in a political snake pit -- which is to say, they are well
integrated into Centauri society.
Charles Henry May
: You're right, it will involve all of humanity. But is that part of the Great
: Story "BABYLON 5"? If you want to include everything that involved all of
: humanity in a single story, then you're going to have to start at about 5,000 BC
: Cronan, because there was a lot of history that involved ALL of humanity. But
: not all of it is directly relevant to B5.
Look, I >>REALLY<< hate to agree with Cronan, but he does have a
point. The underpinnings of the telepath war were set WAAY back in
season one, in the first appearance of Bester (the episode name
escapes me, but we see a telepath named "13" who is running some
shady ops and is never heard from again). The sinister and ruthless
side of Psi-Corp (and Bester's personal quest for power, both personal
power and power to the Corps and telepaths in general) is used
many times. Babylon 5 is used as a transfer point for some pretty
big developments in the Teep War (a.k.a., Garibaldi's betrayal of
Sheridan, which is revealed to be directly related to the Cold War
aspect of the Teep War).
Now, I understand ending the show where he did, but don't say that
the Teep War isn't directly relevant to B5. It is. Garibaldi,
the rogue colony, etc., says that it is.
:> > It's only the Teeps and Normals on Earth
: Oh of course, since all alien races look towards the Human Race as the end all
: be all of perfection.
No, but the other races ABSOLUTELY look at the human race as one of
the major powers in the galaxy. When a major power has a civil war
based on racial issues, the other powers (and lesser powers) sit up
and take very CAREFUL notice. For an example of this, look at the
series of civil wars breaking out in the former republics of the
Soviet Union, specifically Azerbijian and Armenia. That's a racial
issue and a civil war, and was extremely closely watched by our
government. Not that we can relate our experiences to extra-
terrestrials, but I will until proven differently.
Pay attention, Cronan, no other race has anything like
: PsiCorp. ALL the other races have been shown to have their TPs integrated in
: their society without the big black box that PsiCorp is. The Minbari have TPs
: revered as members of the Religious Caste, able to go anywhere and be fed and
: clothed by any other Minbari. The Centauri have allowed their TPs to work in
.... and what if the normals lose the teep war, and telepaths control
the entire earth government, either openly or behind the scenes, in
a de facto rule? The Minbari have already shown a certain amount of
zest for power, a.k.a. the attempt by the Warrior Caste to overthrow
the Religious Caste in the Minbari Civil War after Delenn broke the
Grey Council. It isn't completely out of the question that certain
elements in the Minbari telepath sect are unhappy with their lot,
and would take any excuse to attempt to take power.
: When it comes to the social and political influences and actions of those in his
: universe, yes, he's flawless. If the reason escapes you, try this .. HE
: CREATED IT. He knows the motivations of those in his universe, you don't.
But, as viewers, this doesn't mean we can't have an opinion contra-
dictory to JMS's. This doesn't mean we can't like things he does,
or wish that he had developed some plot threads more. I love
Babylon 5 an awful lot - I've gone out of my way to tape every
episode on a tape, in order, no commercials (and have all but one).
I think it's brilliant, and I love 99$ of the episodes - and the
other 1% I "just" like very much. I would have loved it if JMS
spent another year playing with some of these threads, but...
Chuck May
just~pat
jms...@aol.com (Jms at B5) wrote:
> 2) Should the show have told everything there was about IPX, the Psi Corps,
> EarthDome, and all of the various institutions involved? Show me any series
> ever created that can do that.
Yes.
It should have.
Just because it's never been done, and may in fact be impossible, is no reason
not to do it :-)
> 3) The Psi Corps books cover over a hundred years of history, and Bester's
> final fate comes years after the events of the B5 storyline. There is NO WAY
> to include all of that in any one series.
You coulda come a lot closer to it if you had made B5 a 50-year story instead
of only 5.
(Hey, you wouldn't hear me complaining! :-)
> You are asking the impossible, and
> complaining because we cannot do what simply cannot be done by any series,
> ever, anywhere, ever created.
Like...say...create a five-year storyline, and actually get to show the whole
thing on TV? :-)
??pat
--
Pat Luther --- http://www.cs.pdx.edu/~pluther
"...and, when all men are hastening to become either tyrants or slaves,
that is when we make Liberalism the prime bogey."
- Screwtape (C.S. Lewis)
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Brian Watson
> Brian Watson <ke...@cris.com> wrote:
> : You're right, it will involve all of humanity. But is that part of the Great
> : Story "BABYLON 5"? If you want to include everything that involved all of
> : humanity in a single story, then you're going to have to start at about 5,000 BC
> : Cronan, because there was a lot of history that involved ALL of humanity. But
> : not all of it is directly relevant to B5.
>
> Look, I >>REALLY<< hate to agree with Cronan, but he does have a
> point. The underpinnings of the telepath war were set WAAY back in
> season one, in the first appearance of Bester (the episode name
> escapes me, but we see a telepath named "13" who is running some
> shady ops and is never heard from again). The sinister and ruthless
> side of Psi-Corp (and Bester's personal quest for power, both personal
> power and power to the Corps and telepaths in general) is used
> many times. Babylon 5 is used as a transfer point for some pretty
> big developments in the Teep War (a.k.a., Garibaldi's betrayal of
> Sheridan, which is revealed to be directly related to the Cold War
> aspect of the Teep War).
>
> Now, I understand ending the show where he did, but don't say that
> the Teep War isn't directly relevant to B5. It is. Garibaldi,
> the rogue colony, etc., says that it is.
Did the show cover the founding of PsiCorp? The first discoveries of telepaths in
existance? Was the existance of TPs at the core of everything that happened on the
station? The station only had ONE effect on the TP thread, that is of the colony of
TPs that Sheridan allowed and the deaths of Byron and his followers. That might be
the precipitating factor of the war (or may not) but besides that the other things you
mentioned are not that important in the TP thread, it just shows us how things are,
not why they happened or where they are going.
> :> > It's only the Teeps and Normals on Earth
> : Oh of course, since all alien races look towards the Human Race as the end all
> : be all of perfection.
>
> No, but the other races ABSOLUTELY look at the human race as one of
> the major powers in the galaxy. When a major power has a civil war
> based on racial issues, the other powers (and lesser powers) sit up
> and take very CAREFUL notice. For an example of this, look at the
> series of civil wars breaking out in the former republics of the
> Soviet Union, specifically Azerbijian and Armenia. That's a racial
> issue and a civil war, and was extremely closely watched by our
> government. Not that we can relate our experiences to extra-
> terrestrials, but I will until proven differently.
Again, are any of the other race's Teeps all pushed into a big black box that controls
every aspect of their lives? No. They are generally as free as any other citizen.
There is no great distrust or hatred among them like there is in the human race.
> Pay attention, Cronan, no other race has anything like
> : PsiCorp. ALL the other races have been shown to have their TPs integrated in
> : their society without the big black box that PsiCorp is. The Minbari have TPs
> : revered as members of the Religious Caste, able to go anywhere and be fed and
> : clothed by any other Minbari. The Centauri have allowed their TPs to work in
>
> .... and what if the normals lose the teep war, and telepaths control
> the entire earth government, either openly or behind the scenes, in
> a de facto rule? The Minbari have already shown a certain amount of
> zest for power, a.k.a. the attempt by the Warrior Caste to overthrow
> the Religious Caste in the Minbari Civil War after Delenn broke the
> Grey Council. It isn't completely out of the question that certain
> elements in the Minbari telepath sect are unhappy with their lot,
> and would take any excuse to attempt to take power.
Won't happen. Why? Because there are billions of normals, and just a few million
TPs, and a considerably smaller portion that are strong enough TPs to be a threat to
normals. TPs would be fighting a lost cause, they'll just take down an awful lot of
people with them.
> : When it comes to the social and political influences and actions of those in his
> : universe, yes, he's flawless. If the reason escapes you, try this .. HE
> : CREATED IT. He knows the motivations of those in his universe, you don't.
>
> But, as viewers, this doesn't mean we can't have an opinion contra-
> dictory to JMS's. This doesn't mean we can't like things he does,
> or wish that he had developed some plot threads more.
The question wasn't whether or not viewers can have an opinion, but whether or not JMS
is correct about whatever motivations or social aspects there are of the B5 universe.
To that fact, he is flawless.
Charlie Edmondson
I hope to be proved wrong, but I have a feeling that when the third book
of the Psi Corp trilogy comes out, some readers will be disappointed.
JMS or Greg could tell us now, but I have a suspicion that the trilogy
might end JUST BEFORE the teep war! It would make perfect sense to stop
just as the war is beginning, and leave it open for "BABYLON FIVE: THE
TELEPATH WAR" coming to a movie theatre near you!
But I could be wrong... 8-)
Charlie
Diane K De
>Date: Fri, Mar 26, 1999 12:05 EST
>Charlie
Spoilers below for Crusade and the 3rd novel
Before Crusade's production was stopped, there was going to be an episode with
Bester in it. Crusade occurs after the Teep War.
Keyes has said that Bester's death is in the 3rd novel. Thus, the teep war
should be covered somewhat in the 3rd novel.
How much detail is open to question.
DD
Paul McElligott
Cronan wrote:
--
Sergey Bukhman
Paul McElligott wrote:
>
> Let me rephrase the question then: Do any NORMAL people have a problem with it?
>
I'd rather be anything, but "normal". I think you've given Cronan quite
the compliment.
--
Sergey
--
Claiming that Valentine's Day is too "patriarchal", radical feminists
such as Andrea Dworkin are hoping to replace St. Valentine with St.
Wilgefortis, a Portuguese princess who, legend has it, grew a beard to
make herself repellent to men so that she didn't have to marry against
her wishes, leading to her crucifixion.
Cronan
Daryl Nash wrote
>> >Neither you nor Von Bruno has any business telling JMS or any other
>> >writer what they should or should not be writing.
>>
>> Sure I do. As a consumer, so do you.
>>
>
>similar? A consumer is not necessarily any of those things, but simply one who
>buys stuff. I hate the tendency to deify consumers, as though by purchasing a
>product one can do no wrong.
I dunno. I'm not trying to deify the consumer, merely make the case
for capitalism. But I see no reason why they both can't be true. As
as consumer and "a literate, intelligent, critical person" I think
the Teep War was something B5 promises us.
>But as for the Teep War, you're right, as critical viewers, we had every right
>to expect it to be covered in the course of the series.
Thanks.
Cronan
Cronan
Brian Watson wrote
>> Now, I understand ending the show where he did, but don't say that
>> the Teep War isn't directly relevant to B5. It is. Garibaldi,
>> the rogue colony, etc., says that it is.
>
>Did the show cover the founding of PsiCorp? The first discoveries of
>telepaths in existance? Was the existance of TPs at the core of
>everything that happened on the station? The station only had ONE
>effect on the TP thread, that is of the colony of TPs that Sheridan
>allowed and the deaths of Byron and his followers. That might be the
>precipitating factor of the war (or may not) but besides that the other
>things you mentioned are not that important in the TP thread, it just
>shows us how things are, not why they happened or where they are going.
I must congratulate you on yet another strawman, Brian. No one does
it like you do.
>> No, but the other races ABSOLUTELY look at the human race as one of
>> the major powers in the galaxy. When a major power has a civil war
>> based on racial issues, the other powers (and lesser powers) sit up
>> and take very CAREFUL notice. For an example of this, look at the
>> series of civil wars breaking out in the former republics of the
>> Soviet Union, specifically Azerbijian and Armenia. That's a racial
>> issue and a civil war, and was extremely closely watched by our
>> government. Not that we can relate our experiences to extra-
>> terrestrials, but I will until proven differently.
>
>Again, are any of the other race's Teeps all pushed into a big black box
>that controls every aspect of their lives? No.
Err... we only know that for sure of the Centuari. OF the other races
we have had precious little information on how they treat telepaths.
> They are generally as free as any other citizen.
The only person who has commented on that issue, Bester, has said that
that ain't so. In fact he pointed out that other races use religion
and drugs pretty extensively to control their teep populations.
>There is no great distrust or hatred among them like there is in the
>human race.
We don't know that at all. We have some indications from Delenn that
Minbari teeps are worshipped and revered but the Minbari aren't like
most other races: they had a 1000 year head start.
>> .... and what if the normals lose the teep war, and telepaths control
>> the entire earth government, either openly or behind the scenes, in
>> a de facto rule? The Minbari have already shown a certain amount of
>> zest for power, a.k.a. the attempt by the Warrior Caste to overthrow
>> the Religious Caste in the Minbari Civil War after Delenn broke the
>> Grey Council. It isn't completely out of the question that certain
>> elements in the Minbari telepath sect are unhappy with their lot,
>> and would take any excuse to attempt to take power.
>
>Won't happen. Why? Because there are billions of normals, and just a few
>million TPs, and a considerably smaller portion that are strong enough TPs
>to be a threat to normals. TPs would be fighting a lost cause, they'll
>just take down an awful lot of people with them.
I take you're ignorant of how the British controlled the entire Indian
subcontinent (and its population of over half a *billion*) with but
100,000 men, or the way European powers devided up Africa and South
America and Asia. There are precedents throughout history of a small
minority controlling the majority by relying on what appears to many
familiar with history as small advantages, Brian.
Come on everyone, SING:
Take a look, it's in a book.
>> But, as viewers, this doesn't mean we can't have an opinion contra-
>> dictory to JMS's. This doesn't mean we can't like things he does,
>> or wish that he had developed some plot threads more.
>
>The question wasn't whether or not viewers can have an opinion, but
>whether or not JMS is correct about whatever motivations or social
>aspects there are of the B5 universe. To that fact, he is flawless.
That wasn't the question either, Bri. What is in question relates to
whether or not leaving out this particular conflict is dramatically
sound consider that the Narn/Centauri, Shadow and Earth Civil wars
were all included..
Cronan
Cronan
Charles Henry May wrote
>Look, I >>REALLY<< hate to agree with Cronan, but he does have a
>point.
Then don't.
Really.
I don't mean to be rude (and I really appreciate your so intelligently
arguing a point I raised), but I grow tired of being told that there
is something inherently wrong with me and my posts. Over and over again
folks agree with me as though it's the equivalent of getting a root
canal.
I have feelings too, ya know.
Cronan
Cronan
Brian Watson wrote
>> Bzzzt. Wrong. It'll involve ALL of Humanity and is, at the very
>> least, as relevant to the B5 story as Earth Civil War. Hell, this
>> another Civil war with an even deadlier underpinning: race. Such
>> wars are never easy and much more deadly that mere differences in
>> ideology. And how do you think the other races'll react when they
>> see Earth endanger of becoming a telepathic state? These are the
>> races that have drugged (be it with chemicals or religion) their
>> own teeps. You don't think they're going to support one side or
>> the other?
>
>You're right,
Always. It's my Hallmark.
> it will involve all of humanity. But is that part of the Great
>Story "BABYLON 5"?
Yes.
> If you want to include everything that involved all of
>humanity in a single story, then you're going to have to start at about 5,000
>BC Cronan, because there was a lot of history that involved ALL of humanity.
A strawman! For me? Brian, you shouldn't have! Really. You really,
really shouldn't have.
> But
>not all of it is directly relevant to B5.
But the Teep War is.
>> > It's only the Teeps and Normals on Earth
>> >who are at war with one another.
>> Says you. Everything we saw on B5 up to that point says differently.
>>
>> The Shadow War affected all sentient
>> >races and B5 being not only a center for commerce but a focal point
>> >where most of these races could gather was much more crucial to it
>> >than it was to the Teep War.
>>
>> The Teep War would (or at least should have) touched every single
>> race with teeps and those without them that feared their what might
>> come to be should Earth become come to be run by them.
>
>Oh of course, since all alien races look towards the Human Race as the end
>all be all of perfection.
It's pretty clear how important humans are in JMS' Grand Scheme of
Things. They've always been, not to put too fine a point on it,
the very center of the Babylon 5 universe.
> Pay attention, Cronan, no other race has anything like
>PsiCorp.
I think you missed the few important bits of Season 5. Like where
Bester talks about how other races have dealt with the Telepath
problem. He mentions that other races have used drugs, religion
and a host of other methods to control their teep populations.
Bester as much as said there were teep problems there, too.
> ALL the other races have been shown to have their TPs integrated in
>their society without the big black box that PsiCorp is.
We don't know that at all.
> The Minbari have TPs
>revered as members of the Religious Caste, able to go anywhere and be fed and
>clothed by any other Minbari.
Which is to say they've been forced into walking around with signs
that say "WILL PEEP FOR FOOD!"
> The Centauri have allowed their TPs to work in
>any fashion they enjoy (and apparently very profitably) whether it is with
>the military, the Emperor, or freelance.
Yes, and?
> The Narn would LOVE to have TPs, even
>though their zeal might go as far to infringe on some rights.
I don't believe these constitute ALL the races in the B5 universe.
>> > No, the Teep War
>> >is at best a small chapter in the Great Story.
>> Yeah, err, right.
>
>Oh. And you must know better than the man who created the show. Cronan, buy
>a clue.
It is a possiblity that all should remain open to..
>> > If you'd been paying attention you'd see that I never said anyone
>> >was not qualified to judge a work for any reason. What I said was that
>> >when someone is in charge of their own TV show they can tell people
>> >what should or should not be covered during the life of that show.
>>
>> Which roughly translates as "JMS is god. He can make no mistakes."
>
>When it comes to the social and political influences and actions of those in
>his universe, yes, he's flawless.
Not he isn't. JMS is supposed to be constrained by logic and the
rules of drama. And he has fallen down in this regard.
> If the reason escapes you, try this .. HE
>CREATED IT.
Meaning precisely nothing. The WB OWNS IT. So? It still should make
some attempt to follow through and make sense. It didn't.
> He knows the motivations of those in his universe, you don't.
Another strawman! Really, Bri, that's just way too much.
>> >Neither you nor Von Bruno has any business telling JMS or any other
>> >writer what they should or should not be writing.
>>
>> Sure I do. As a consumer, so do you.
>
>The like a consumer, vote with your dollar. Go away. Don't spend any money
>on it. Leave us. Please.
Why, Bri, I'm beginning to think that you don't like me.
>> > If you don't like,
>> >don't read it.
>>
>> How will I know if I don't life it until I've watched it or read it?
>
>Buy a book, read a little of it, and if it doesn't float your boat take it
>back to the store with your receipt and return it. Oh. I'm sorry. Was that
>too obvious of a solution?
Yes. It also has nothing to do with the point raised.
>> But don't presume to tell him what he should be doing
>> >to satisfy your piddling ego.
>>
>> My ego isn't piddling; it's well-nigh gargantuan.
>
>As I pointed out earlier.
I beat you to it. It just takes my posts longer to show up.
>> >Just as you do more often than not.
>>
>> I take you're upset because I'm always right. And still upset about
>> that Space Program thing.
>
>Always right? Now you are God? Ahh. Delusions of grandeur strike again.
I am fairly close to several gods. (We correspond by e-mail.)
Cronan
...the really satisfying ones are the very best kind
Brian Watson
> Brian Watson wrote
> >> Now, I understand ending the show where he did, but don't say that
> >> the Teep War isn't directly relevant to B5. It is. Garibaldi,
> >> the rogue colony, etc., says that it is.
> >
> >Did the show cover the founding of PsiCorp? The first discoveries of
> >telepaths in existance? Was the existance of TPs at the core of
> >everything that happened on the station? The station only had ONE
> >effect on the TP thread, that is of the colony of TPs that Sheridan
> >allowed and the deaths of Byron and his followers. That might be the
> >precipitating factor of the war (or may not) but besides that the other
> >things you mentioned are not that important in the TP thread, it just
> >shows us how things are, not why they happened or where they are going.
>
> I must congratulate you on yet another strawman, Brian. No one does
> it like you do.
Stating it's a strawman doesn't make it so. Actually giving some evidence to
backup your view is above you, I suppose.
> >> .... and what if the normals lose the teep war, and telepaths control
> >> the entire earth government, either openly or behind the scenes, in
> >> a de facto rule? The Minbari have already shown a certain amount of
> >> zest for power, a.k.a. the attempt by the Warrior Caste to overthrow
> >> the Religious Caste in the Minbari Civil War after Delenn broke the
> >> Grey Council. It isn't completely out of the question that certain
> >> elements in the Minbari telepath sect are unhappy with their lot,
> >> and would take any excuse to attempt to take power.
> >
> >Won't happen. Why? Because there are billions of normals, and just a few
> >million TPs, and a considerably smaller portion that are strong enough TPs
> >to be a threat to normals. TPs would be fighting a lost cause, they'll
> >just take down an awful lot of people with them.
>
> I take you're ignorant of how the British controlled the entire Indian
> subcontinent (and its population of over half a *billion*) with but
> 100,000 men, or the way European powers devided up Africa and South
> America and Asia. There are precedents throughout history of a small
> minority controlling the majority by relying on what appears to many
> familiar with history as small advantages, Brian.
And do they STILL control India? No they don't. They were forced out for a
number of reasons, and TPs couldn't expect to control Earth for very long, if
at all.
> Come on everyone, SING:
> Take a look, it's in a book.
Yes Cronan, check out the fallout created by such occupations, and maybe you'll
actually make a point.
> >> But, as viewers, this doesn't mean we can't have an opinion contra-
> >> dictory to JMS's. This doesn't mean we can't like things he does,
> >> or wish that he had developed some plot threads more.
> >
> >The question wasn't whether or not viewers can have an opinion, but
> >whether or not JMS is correct about whatever motivations or social
> >aspects there are of the B5 universe. To that fact, he is flawless.
>
> That wasn't the question either, Bri. What is in question relates to
> whether or not leaving out this particular conflict is dramatically
> sound consider that the Narn/Centauri, Shadow and Earth Civil wars
> were all included..
Well let's see.. the Narn/Centauri war were directly related to the Shadow
War, which was directly related to B5's presence and ending it. The Earth
Civil war was included because it involved B5 leading the fight to liberate
Earth. The Telepath War is more than likely to be fought on EARTH or MARS, but
have very little to do with B5 directly. So Cro, I guess you just need to pay
more attention.
Sergey Bukhman
Pulling a Tropea, are you? Learn from the best, eh?
--
Sergey
--
A man dressed in a Barney costume was sighted drinking in various bars
in Florida, muttering about how he planned to "fix those little shits
for good.''
ad...@atrax.net.au
"Cronan" <h...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >Oh of course, since all alien races look towards the Human Race as the end
> >all be all of perfection.
>
> It's pretty clear how important humans are in JMS' Grand Scheme of
> Things. They've always been, not to put too fine a point on it,
> the very center of the Babylon 5 universe.
One of the weaknesses of B5, IMHO.
JMS has created a universe full of complex, fascinating alien characters
living in complex, fascinating alien societies. He has also potrayed an
Earth riven with social problems and riddled with corrupt individuals and
institutions. And yet we are supposed to believe humans are 'special' and
have a 'destiny'.
(At the risk of offending every American on this newsgroup, this strikes me
as not dissimilar to the attitude of *SOME* American superpatriots. Having
the 'other races' in B5 look to the humans as a source of perfection strikes
me as being about as realistic as expecting the 'other countries' to regard
America in the same way.)
> > Pay attention, Cronan, no other race has anything like
> >PsiCorp.
>
> I think you missed the few important bits of Season 5. Like where
> Bester talks about how other races have dealt with the Telepath
> problem. He mentions that other races have used drugs, religion
> and a host of other methods to control their teep populations.
> Bester as much as said there were teep problems there, too.
I wouldn't call Bester the most... er... reliable person in the B5. He's a
little bit... biased. He certainly has a vested interest in the PsiCorps.
On the other hand, we saw in "Passing Through Gesthemene" that the Centauri
teeps, at least, are contemptuous of the PsiCorps and the restrictions place
on human teeps. We don't see much of the Centauri teeps, but they seem to
have both status *and* freedom. Ditto the Minbari teeps. If the Centauri
can manage to treat their telepaths decently, how hard can it be? :-)
OTOH, it has been shown PsiCorps practises brainwashing, human medical
experimentation on unwilling subjects, forced breeding (including kidnapping
and rape) and murder. There hasn't been a hint that any other race comes
even close to treating their teeps in this way. No wonder Earth's Psi
population is rebelling!
Christine
ad...@atrax.net.au
WWS
Sergey Bukhman wrote:
>
> Paul McElligott wrote:
> >
> > Let me rephrase the question then: Do any NORMAL people have a problem with it?
> >
>
> I'd rather be anything, but "normal". I think you've given Cronan quite
> the compliment.
Especially since "normal" usually means "People who think like me
and like the same things I do" and "abnormal" means "evil people
that I can't understand that hate everything I love and hold dear".
So lets rephrase the original question one more time: to be truthful,
what should have been asked was:
"Does anyone who thinks and acts exactly like me and acts in complete
accordance with my groups acknowledged standards of "what we like" and
"what we don't like" have any kind of problem with this?
HTH, HAND
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
I think the earliest flyswatters were probably nothing more than
a kind of flat, striking surface attached to a long stick.
WWS
ad...@atrax.net.au wrote:
>
> In article <7d6j35$os4$1...@camel21.mindspring.com>,
> "Cronan" <h...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> > >Oh of course, since all alien races look towards the Human Race as the end
> > >all be all of perfection.
> >
> > It's pretty clear how important humans are in JMS' Grand Scheme of
> > Things. They've always been, not to put too fine a point on it,
> > the very center of the Babylon 5 universe.
>
> One of the weaknesses of B5, IMHO.
>
> JMS has created a universe full of complex, fascinating alien characters
> living in complex, fascinating alien societies. He has also potrayed an
> Earth riven with social problems and riddled with corrupt individuals and
> institutions. And yet we are supposed to believe humans are 'special' and
> have a 'destiny'.
>
> (At the risk of offending every American on this newsgroup, this strikes me
> as not dissimilar to the attitude of *SOME* American superpatriots. Having
> the 'other races' in B5 look to the humans as a source of perfection strikes
> me as being about as realistic as expecting the 'other countries' to regard
> America in the same way.)
That's actually a pretty good analogy - look at it this way. Other
countries gripe and moan about what the US does, but does anyone do
anything about it? You think there would be any sanctions still in
place over Iraq if America didn't want it? You think there would be
any strikes or actions in Kosovo if America wasn't driving the entire
thing? You think the UN has taken any actions in the last 20 years
that aren't in complete accordance with America's wishes? Can you name
any international business that isn't dominated by the large, predominantly
American multinational corporations? Can you name a leading technology
being developed without the aid of those same American companies?
This is not to put any kind of value judgement on this, or to say
this is good or this is bad, and this is not meant to be any kind
of superpatriotic statement. I myself don't really think it is a
very good thing, but the plain bare facts are that the world does
what America wants, buys what America makes, and goes where America
wants it to go. And there is not any serious challenger anywhere
left on the international scene - Russia's pathetic moaning about
the situation in Kosovo only points what a decrepit and pitiful
shell of a nation they have become - one harsh word from the
American bankers who prop up the IMF and 3/4 of that country will
go into starvation in a week. So how are they going to mount any
serious challenge to the action in Kosovo?
And by the way, I'm curious how long people think it will be till
ground forces are introduced. I'm giving it two weeks, myself. Or
did you believe Bill when he solemnly looked at the camera and
swore that no American troops would be invading Yugoslavia?
I suppose there are certain advantages to having one of the
slickest and most convincing liars on record as President.
I'm sure his people are working on coming up with some on-the-scene
video that will justify it all, and will allow him to say "well,
I really meant that when I said it". But now he's started, who's
to stop him? I saw some of the media on TV this AM, starting to
pump up the prospect of War Crimes trials for the Serb leaders.
Looks like the justification campaign for a full scale invasion
is already starting. Probably won't take too long to be effective.
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
It takes considerable knowledge to realize the extent of your
own ignorance. - Thomas Sowell
Steve Brinich
Cronan wrote:
> Err... we only know that for sure of the Centuari. OF the other races
> we have had precious little information on how they treat telepaths.
On the contrary, we pretty much know the answers for all four of the
major younger races:
Centauri: They "do what they like", or more precisely, what they can
get away with (Garibaldi's description, which fits what we saw in "Passing
Through Gethsemane" and "And The Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place").
Humans: Psi Corps
Minbari: Provide public service and are taken care of by the public
(more like some religious orders in Earth history than a tit-for-tat
market exchange).
Narn: They haven't had telepaths since the time of G'Quan, and are
trying to rectify this.
>> They are generally as free as any other citizen.
>
> The only person who has commented on that issue, Bester, has said that
> that ain't so. In fact he pointed out that other races use religion
> and drugs pretty extensively to control their teep populations.
When you get right down to it, most Earth cultures have used religion
pretty extensively to control their mundane populations. Thus, in the
case of religious control Bester's statement does not contradict what
Brian Watson said at all.
(Bester's lumping of religious constraints on behavior into the same
category as mind-altering drugs furthers my impression that his view of
"his people" has more than a slight overtone of the Nietzschean Superman,
but that's another issue.)
Steve Brinich
> I don't mean to be rude (and I really appreciate your so intelligently
> arguing a point I raised), but I grow tired of being told that there
> is something inherently wrong with me and my posts. Over and over
> again folks agree with me as though it's the equivalent of getting
> a root canal.
>
> I have feelings too, ya know.
Cronan also wrote:
> A strawman! For me? Brian, you shouldn't have! Really. You really,
> really shouldn't have.
When you make up your mind whether you find cheap shots to be an hateful
assault or a useful tool, drop back in and let us know.
Aubrey W. Adkins
the bombing started? I am just curious. I wonder if we will take two
weeks? I suppose we have to wait until we get the forces in place? I
don't know about you, WWS, but I don't like the way the music is heading
these days. Somehow if this was George Bush doing this, I might not be
so apprehensive about where it is going and exactly why.
Aubrey
Aubrey W. Adkins
Aubrey
Louise Taylor
they arguing just for the sake of arguing at this point? It is obvious to
even the most casual of observers that neither is going to change the
other's opinion. You two could go on arguing into the real start of the
next millenium. Why don't you agree to disagree and move on?
Louise
Mark Alexander
> Someone define 'normal' please?
> Aubrey
The word is a compound of "nor", a coordinate conjunction indicating a negation, and
"mal", French for "bad".
So "normal" means "not bad."
;-)
Mark
j...@gte.net
> I have feelings too, ya know.
>
> Cronan
As Gomer Pyle would say, Sur-Prize, Sur-Prize!!
Craig Powers
[big snip]
> Can you name
> any international business that isn't dominated by the large, predominantly
> American multinational corporations?
Yup. Oil. Driven by the American consumer, certainly, but I would
guess that BP-Amoco and Shell/Royal Dutch hold their own against any of
the American companies (with Exxon/Mobil the primary competitors). Not
to mention what OPEC is capable of doing when they feel like acting
together, rather than trying to compete with each other. Not that I
disagreed with your point, mind you.
[more massive snippage]
> And by the way, I'm curious how long people think it will be till
> ground forces are introduced. I'm giving it two weeks, myself. Or
> did you believe Bill when he solemnly looked at the camera and
> swore that no American troops would be invading Yugoslavia?
[going more than a trifle off-topic - I probably should change the
subject header, but I won't.]
Not that I saw it, but I would have believed that if he meant it, he
either didn't expect to win or had unrealistic expectations of what
could be accomplished using air strikes. Man, what a mess things are
over there. While I don't know that I like the way it's going, I'm
hard-pressed to come up with any better ideas.
--
Craig Powers NU ChE class of '98
cpo...@lynx.dac.neu.edu http://lynx.neu.edu/home/httpd/c/cpowers
eni...@hal-pc.org http://www.hal-pc.org/~enigma
"Good..bad....I'm the guy with the gun." -- "Ash" in *Army of Darkness*
ad...@atrax.net.au
WWS <wsch...@tyler.net> wrote:
>
>
> ad...@atrax.net.au wrote:
> > (At the risk of offending every American on this newsgroup, this strikes me
> > as not dissimilar to the attitude of *SOME* American superpatriots. Having
> > the 'other races' in B5 look to the humans as a source of perfection strikes
> > me as being about as realistic as expecting the 'other countries' to regard
> > America in the same way.)
>
> That's actually a pretty good analogy - look at it this way. Other
> countries gripe and moan about what the US does, but does anyone do
> anything about it? You think there would be any sanctions still in
> place over Iraq if America didn't want it? You think there would be
> any strikes or actions in Kosovo if America wasn't driving the entire
> thing? You think the UN has taken any actions in the last 20 years
> that aren't in complete accordance with America's wishes? Can you name
> any international business that isn't dominated by the large, predominantly
> American multinational corporations? Can you name a leading technology
> being developed without the aid of those same American companies?
[snip]
America has become the proverbial 600 lb gorilla, who sits where it wants to
. However, the point was trying to make (badly, I'm sure) was about the kind
of patriot who believes that America is powerful because it is more
'virtuous' than any other country, and because it has a 'destiny' to lead the
world. (There's a couple of quite good articles on how this attitude affects
foreign policy makers in Washington in the March/April edition of "Foreign
Affairs, BTW.) The rest of the world doesn't necessarily agree, of course -
even in countries which are close allies of the US, people are capable of
feeling angered or threatened by American pretensions to power.
This ties back into Babylon 5 because it portrays such American future - the
social attitudes, the politics and political processes, even the television,
are so obviously *American*. Sheridan seems in particular, has developed a
very American leadership style (his ineptitude apart). Fair enough: JMS is
an American writer/producer working in America with American actors and
technicians producing a show for American television. The thing is, though,
that the alien characters so obviously admire the humans (read Americans writ
large) and think them pretty special. The 'other races' praise them in terms
which remind me of how the superpatriots describe themselves - that they
'create communities', for example. The humans have become the 600 lb
gorilla, but everyone else seems pleased and proud to have it boss them
around.
I don't know whether JMS is doing it intentionally or unconsciously, but it
is sending very mixed messages (especially, I think, to non-Americans like
me). The humans get clobbered in the future sequences of "Deconstruction of
Falling Stars" - hubris conquered by nemesis. OTOH, he potrays a human
dominated alliance led by a man who habitually tricks 'the others' to 'keep
them in line' (all for their own good, you'll understand). And the humans
become 'First Ones' and well, everyone else thinks they have a destiny!
> And by the way, I'm curious how long people think it will be till
> ground forces are introduced. I'm giving it two weeks, myself. Or
> did you believe Bill when he solemnly looked at the camera and
> swore that no American troops would be invading Yugoslavia?
Hmmm... if he wants to achieve anything besides killing Serbs, he better.
History has shown that bombing usually achieves nothing so much as stiffening
the resistance of the bombed. ObB5 reference: look at how the bombing of
Centauri Prime united the Centauri in anger.
Andrew Wendel
Aubrey W. Adkins <xazq...@norfolk.infi.net> wrote in message
news:37000CC3...@norfolk.infi.net...
>Someone define 'normal' please?
>Aubrey
Me. I am normal. The rest of the population is not. If you would like to
be more normal, I will send you an autographed picture for you to hang over
your bed. By doing what I say, and thinking of me at all times, you will
become normal.
Andy
------
Andrew Wendel
Mechanical Engineering
Kansas State University
mailto:blind...@iname.com
http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~h38
-------------------------------------------
Television has raised writing to a new low.
-Samuel Goldwyn
WWS
I almost hope that they knew what was coming and are trying to lead
the country down a path to greater involvement, in the same way
that Wilson and Roosevelt did in previous European conflicts. Yet
there are all these disturbing signs that the administration never
completely thought through the consequences of using force - one
being the inevitable escalation that will take place if the other
side doesn't respond the way you have planned for them to respond.
Wars of all kinds take on a life of their own and quickly outgrow
the intentions of those who started it. The most telling incidence
of this lack of planning and thought came when Italian Prime Minister
D'Alema asked Clinton last week what he would do if the bombing
campaign didn't work. Clinton said nothing, Sandy Berger piped up,
"We'll continue bombing". You need better contingency plans than
that to fight a war!
One thing that is already obvious - the peace accord that supposedly
the Serbs are supposed to agree to is dead. The Albanians will never
accept being an autonomous province of Serbia after the last week.
So are we fighting to officially partition a sovereign state? The
administrations objectives, as stated, are unachievable. So what
is the goal? And how will making several million people vow to
fight to the death accomplish that goal? And now that we've hit
the tar baby with both hands and both feet, how do we ever get loose?
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
adna...@home.com
take place before B5 series, and from what I've read, Book 3 takes place
after the teep war, with Bester on the run.
Cronan wrote:
>
> Daryl Nash wrote
> >> >Neither you nor Von Bruno has any business telling JMS or any other
> >> >writer what they should or should not be writing.
> >>
> >> Sure I do. As a consumer, so do you.
> >>
> >
> >Err. How about "as a literate, intelligent, critical person" or something
> >similar? A consumer is not necessarily any of those things, but simply one who
> >buys stuff. I hate the tendency to deify consumers, as though by purchasing a
> >product one can do no wrong.
>
> I dunno. I'm not trying to deify the consumer, merely make the case
> for capitalism. But I see no reason why they both can't be true. As
> as consumer and "a literate, intelligent, critical person" I think
> the Teep War was something B5 promises us.
>
> >But as for the Teep War, you're right, as critical viewers, we had every right
> >to expect it to be covered in the course of the series.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Cronan
.
James Bell
> >Brian Watson wrote:
> Cronan wrote:
>
> > Err... we only know that for sure of the Centuari. OF the other races
> > we have had precious little information on how they treat telepaths.
>
> On the contrary, we pretty much know the answers for all four of the
> major younger races:
>
> Centauri: They "do what they like", or more precisely, what they can
> get away with (Garibaldi's description, which fits what we saw in "Passing
> Through Gethsemane" and "And The Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place").
And who decides what they can get away with? Surely the Centauri have a
system to control them whether it is official or unofficial. Truth is, we
don't know. A couple little scenes don't tell us much.
> Humans: Psi Corps
> Minbari: Provide public service and are taken care of by the public
> (more like some religious orders in Earth history than a tit-for-tat
> market exchange).
We don't know this. We were told this by Delenn, the second biggest liar this
side of the rim. Would she really reveal the awful truth of the Minbari
telepath "situation" to humans? Call me cynical, but I don't believe for a
minute that they don't have any telepath problems on Minbar.
Jim
Aubrey W. Adkins
Monicagate and the pentagon went along with it, so they can test their
new toys. The fact that Clinton is the liar he is causes me to discount
everything that comes out of his mouth and same for his staff and
advisors.
Aubrey
Jim Batka
> WWS wrote:
> >
<Deletia>
> I get this awful feeling that the bombing is supposed to make us forget
> Monicagate and the pentagon went along with it, so they can test their
> new toys. The fact that Clinton is the liar he is causes me to discount
> everything that comes out of his mouth and same for his staff and
> advisors.
> Aubrey
Aubrey,
The Pentagon has no choice. The President is the "Commander in Chief".
When he says jump... well, you know how that goes. It saddens me to
think that he's wasting human life to cover his political butt. It's even
sadder because many Americans buy the ruse hook, line, and sinker.
The way I look at it, the President may pick one of three choices
1) Withdraw our troops and give up his objectives. This cuts our losses
but loses face.
2) Continue bombing which gives the illusion of striving for the objectives
even though it is a certainty that they'll never be achieved. This costs
the President political clout and makes America look foolish.
3) Send in ground troops in an all out attempt to achieve the stated
goals. This makes the President look strong, despite the fact that the
goals really don't achieve anything for America and costs lives on both
sides.
Which do you think this President is most likely to pursue?
I'm really wondering how he convinced the rest of NATO to join in this
lunacy.
My own opinion is similar to Gharlane's. Arm the Kosovars. They've
already shown the inclination to fight.
Be seeing you,
--
Jim Batka
Aubrey W. Adkins
"Commander-in-Chief" thing.
This man doesn't know shit about military tactics and planning. Congress
has its collective head up its ass except for a congresswoman from
California, she voted no. Then the pentagon never saw an opportunity to
blow something up that they didn't salivate over.
Personally, if we had to do anything, I like your Idea. Arm them and let
them do the job themselves, but we know that won't happen. Remember
Bosnia?
Andrew Wendel
>Jim Batka wrote:
>Being retired navy, for a very long time now,I know about the
>"Commander-in-Chief" thing.
>This man doesn't know shit about military tactics and planning. Congress
>has its collective head up its ass except for a congresswoman from
>California, she voted no. Then the pentagon never saw an opportunity to
>blow something up that they didn't salivate over.
>Personally, if we had to do anything, I like your Idea. Arm them and let
>them do the job themselves, but we know that won't happen. Remember
>Bosnia?
Actually, wasn't it the US arms through IRAN to the Bosnian Muslims that got
the Bosnian Serbs to the table?
Andy
------
Andrew Wendel
Mechanical Engineering
Kansas State University
mailto:blind...@iname.com
http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~h38
-------------------------------------------
Deja Fu: The feeling that somehow, somewhere,
you've been kicked in the head like this before.
Steve Brinich
>> Centauri: They "do what they like", or more precisely, what they
>> can get away with (Garibaldi's description, which fits what we saw
>> in "Passing Through Gethsemane" and "And The Rock Cried Out, No
>> Hiding Place").
>
> And who decides what they can get away with? Surely the Centauri
> have a system to control them whether it is official or unofficial.
To all appearances, they're controlled the same way Londo, Refa, etc are
controlled -- they either maneuver through the maze well and get away with
whatever game they're playing, or they piss off the wrong people and get
taken down. Such is the way of Centauri life.
>> Minbari: Provide public service and are taken care of by the
>> public (more like some religious orders in Earth history than a
>> tit-for-tat market exchange).
>
> We don't know this. We were told this by Delenn, the second biggest
> liar this side of the rim. Would she really reveal the awful truth
> of the Minbari telepath "situation" to humans?
She would if he'd heard how Na'Toth got shot down when *she* tried to
conceal the awful truth about the Narn situation. Ivanova and Talia both
had a vested interest in exposing any such subterfuge.
Aubrey W. Adkins
>
> Aubrey W. Adkins <xazq...@norfolk.infi.net> wrote in message
> news:3703DA6A...@norfolk.infi.net...
> >Jim Batka wrote:
> >Being retired navy, for a very long time now,I know about the
> >"Commander-in-Chief" thing.
> >This man doesn't know shit about military tactics and planning. Congress
> >has its collective head up its ass except for a congresswoman from
> >California, she voted no. Then the pentagon never saw an opportunity to
> >blow something up that they didn't salivate over.
> >Personally, if we had to do anything, I like your Idea. Arm them and let
> >them do the job themselves, but we know that won't happen. Remember
> >Bosnia?
>
> Actually, wasn't it the US arms through IRAN to the Bosnian Muslims that got
> the Bosnian Serbs to the table?
>
>
setting on our collective hands.
Aubrey
Wes Struebing
>
>Aubrey W. Adkins <xazq...@norfolk.infi.net> wrote in message
>news:37000CC3...@norfolk.infi.net...
>>Someone define 'normal' please?
>>Aubrey
>
>Me. I am normal. The rest of the population is not. If you would like to
>be more normal, I will send you an autographed picture for you to hang over
>your bed. By doing what I say, and thinking of me at all times, you will
>become normal.
>
I've only known one normal person in my life (well, besides myself...), and
her first name was Abbie...
Take care; faith manages!
Wes Struebing
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
str...@americanisp.com
ph: 303-343-9006 / FAX: 303-343-9026
home page: http://users.americanisp.com/~wstruebi/
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Wes Struebing
>
>My own opinion is similar to Gharlane's. Arm the Kosovars. They've
>already shown the inclination to fight.
Well, maybe. But since they've been fighting each other for centuries, I
think getting weapons is the least of their worries...
Me, I'm for having NATO build a high wall completely around the Balkans, and
let 'em slug it out. The winner can then dismantle the wall, and we can see
who to recognize...
>
>Be seeing you,
not if I see you first<G>
Andrew Wendel
Wes Struebing <str...@americanisp.com> wrote in message
news:3705346a...@news.americanisp.com...
>On 1 Apr 1999 12:09:20 -0700, Jim Batka <jim....@sdrc.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
>Well, maybe. But since they've been fighting each other for centuries, I
>think getting weapons is the least of their worries...
>
>Me, I'm for having NATO build a high wall completely around the Balkans,
and
>let 'em slug it out. The winner can then dismantle the wall, and we can
see
>who to recognize...
>
>Wes Struebing
That is along the lines of Dennis Miller's way of dealing with the Middle
East. I believe his exact quote was "We should hang a sing on the door of
the Embacy that reads 'Back when you get your $#@% together.'"
In Somolia, they were told we would consider scaling back US military but we
wanted our pilot back. They said that they would trade the pilot for US
withdrawl. Our 'diplomat' responded that we wanted our pilot back, and they
would either hand him over or we would conduct a door to door search of the
city.
Cronan
Steve Brinich wrote in message <37001620...@radix.net>...
>Cronan wrote:
>
>> I don't mean to be rude (and I really appreciate your so intelligently
>> arguing a point I raised), but I grow tired of being told that there
>> is something inherently wrong with me and my posts. Over and over
>> again folks agree with me as though it's the equivalent of getting
>> a root canal.
>>
>
>
>> A strawman! For me? Brian, you shouldn't have! Really. You really,
>> really shouldn't have.
>
> When you make up your mind whether you find cheap shots to be an hateful
>assault or a useful tool, drop back in and let us know.
I like you, Steve.
Cronan
H. Chan
In article <36FFE377...@tyler.net>, WWS <wsch...@tyler.net> wrote:
> ad...@atrax.net.au wrote:
> >
> > In article <7d6j35$os4$1...@camel21.mindspring.com>,
> > "Cronan" <h...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >Oh of course, since all alien races look towards the Human Race as
the end
> > > >all be all of perfection.
> > >
> > > It's pretty clear how important humans are in JMS' Grand Scheme of
> > > Things. They've always been, not to put too fine a point on it,
> > > the very center of the Babylon 5 universe.
> >
> > One of the weaknesses of B5, IMHO.
> >
> > JMS has created a universe full of complex, fascinating alien characters
> > living in complex, fascinating alien societies. He has also potrayed an
> > Earth riven with social problems and riddled with corrupt individuals and
> > institutions. And yet we are supposed to believe humans are 'special' and
> > have a 'destiny'.
> >
> > (At the risk of offending every American on this newsgroup, this strikes me
> > as not dissimilar to the attitude of *SOME* American superpatriots. Having
> > the 'other races' in B5 look to the humans as a source of perfection strikes
> > me as being about as realistic as expecting the 'other countries' to regard
> > America in the same way.)
>
> That's actually a pretty good analogy - look at it this way. Other
> countries gripe and moan about what the US does, but does anyone do
> anything about it?
Other countries don't have to have the power to do anything about it;
being able to complain about it is an indication of freedom, just as free
speech is to the US and many other nations. Just look at this newsgroup:
as a whole or as individuals, do we have the power to effect change in
Warner Brothers' actions regarding B5, or to keep Crusade alive? By and
large, no--but we can still complain, "gripe and moan" about it.
> You think there would be any sanctions still in
> place over Iraq if America didn't want it? You think there would be
> any strikes or actions in Kosovo if America wasn't driving the entire
> thing? You think the UN has taken any actions in the last 20 years
> that aren't in complete accordance with America's wishes?
In terms of non-military actions, IIRC most of the UN countries have sided
against the US with regard to Cuba and demand that sanctions be lifted, or
at least lessened. Similarly, most countries have endorsed the
anti-landmine proposal.
> Can you name
> any international business that isn't dominated by the large, predominantly
> American multinational corporations? Can you name a leading technology
> being developed without the aid of those same American companies?
Telecommunications. The US has Cisco, Canada has Nortel. Both have fairly
large influence on the world market, and Nortel purchased Bay Networks
recently.
The car market is another contender, with major companies operating in the
US, Japan, Germany and other countries. Each have varying degrees of
success in foreign markets, so you can't say that American cars dominate
the world market.
Oil isn't a technology, but the US has precious few oil resources of its
own. That's one of the reasons the US got involved in the Iraq-Kuwait
crisis in the first place, to protect oil interests.
> This is not to put any kind of value judgement on this, or to say
> this is good or this is bad, and this is not meant to be any kind
> of superpatriotic statement. I myself don't really think it is a
> very good thing, but the plain bare facts are that the world does
> what America wants, buys what America makes, and goes where America
> wants it to go.
There is one area where the rest of the world has already gone to, but
America seems to be fighting and resisting, kicking and screaming. At the
risk of offending every American in this newsgroup... What I can't
understand is why the US can claim to be so advanced and all... yet at the
same time not be forward thinking in other respects. Yes, I'm talking
about the metric system. I think it's fair to say the US is one of the
very few countries, and almost certainly the only industrialized nation,
left in the world that doesn't officially use the SI system in any normal
aspect of daily life (IIRC, a late 70's National Geographic article said
that about 95% of the countries in the world had already gone metric).
Speed limits, weather, gas, etc; it's as if the US has unconsciously
(hopefully not deliberately) decided to go against the flow of the rest of
the world in this one area, as if they know better.
What the heck is keeping you guys? I'm studying to become an engineer in
Canada, and was rather annoyed that I would have to learn some of the
material in imperial measurements, only because our biggest trading
partner is still using that obsolete system. Some of the US's big European
trading partners have even threatened economic consequences if the US
industry isn't fully converted within the next decade. They've been
generous too--originally the demand was for the conversion to be completed
within the next few years. It's almost like using Roman numerals to do
math, when there's a much better system in place!
If the reason is the cost to convert everything over, I'll be most
disappointed. The US is the richest country on the face of the planet,
right? If it can afford to spend half a billion dollars each time the
space shuttle launches, or equip its warplanes with million-dollar Phoenix
missiles, it can definitely afford to spend a few million dollars
replacing road signs and what not. Hell, call it a millenial project to
get the necessary funds if need be (too late). This is perhaps the one
area where Babylon 5 lags behind Star Trek (TNG, DS9 and Voyager) in terms
of a realistic portrayal of the future--the modern Treks all use metric
exclusively, while B5 tended to use imperial the majority of the time,
though some improvement was made in the later seasons (I think).
See? Tying back to an earlier point, I'm complaining about something that
I have absolutely no control over and can't hope to change. ;-)
WWS
"H. Chan" wrote:
I think the reason is simpler, and actually more pathetic. They have tried a
few times, and backed off everytime - I think Congress passed a resolution
or something to convert in 1978, but they never had the guts to enforce it.
The reason? The average American who doesn't see beyond the end of his block
sees it only as a nuisance and something he doesn't need, and doesn't care
about all the efficiencies it would make in manufacturing. And Congressmen
are scared to death to do something that they know will aggravate a lot of
their constituents while at the same time doing nothing to garner them
additional votes from anyone. Or put another way, there is no significant
constituancy for change on the domestic political front. This is the point
where usually something like leadership is supposed to come into play, but
their seems to have been precious little of that on display here lately.
I myself find the metric system far easier to work with, as anyone who has
ever done anything connected with engineering does. Distances aren't that
difficult, but anything connected with volumes and liquids is a nightmare
to work in the English system.
>
> See? Tying back to an earlier point, I'm complaining about something that
> I have absolutely no control over and can't hope to change. ;-)
It's kind of like telling the English they need to start driving on the
right side of the road.
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
It's a little known fact that the Dark Ages were caused by the
Y1K problem.
Andrew Wendel
H. Chan <hfc...@engsoc.carleton.ca> wrote in message
news:hfchan-0404...@ppp48.annex4.carleton.ca...
<SNIP>
> There is one area where the rest of the world has already gone to, but
> America seems to be fighting and resisting, kicking and screaming. At the
> risk of offending every American in this newsgroup... What I can't
> understand is why the US can claim to be so advanced and all... yet at the
> same time not be forward thinking in other respects. Yes, I'm talking
> about the metric system. I think it's fair to say the US is one of the
> very few countries, and almost certainly the only industrialized nation,
> left in the world that doesn't officially use the SI system in any normal
> aspect of daily life (IIRC, a late 70's National Geographic article said
> that about 95% of the countries in the world had already gone metric).
> Speed limits, weather, gas, etc; it's as if the US has unconsciously
> (hopefully not deliberately) decided to go against the flow of the rest of
> the world in this one area, as if they know better.
Let see. Thousands of Americans die each year because of drinking and
driving. Raises barley keep rate with inflation. SS and Medicare are both
predicted to go insolvent within 15 years. We might end up with another war
in Europe.
Changing the measurement system from ENGLISH to METRIC just does not rank up
there very high. Priorities need to be set.
Andy
------
Andrew Wendel
Mechanical Engineering
Kansas State University
mailto:blind...@iname.com
http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~h38
-------------------------------------------
A day without sunshine is like night.
Brian Watson
> H. Chan <hfc...@engsoc.carleton.ca> wrote in message
> news:hfchan-0404...@ppp48.annex4.carleton.ca...
> <SNIP>
> > There is one area where the rest of the world has already gone to, but
> > America seems to be fighting and resisting, kicking and screaming. At the
> > risk of offending every American in this newsgroup... What I can't
> > understand is why the US can claim to be so advanced and all... yet at the
> > same time not be forward thinking in other respects. Yes, I'm talking
> > about the metric system. I think it's fair to say the US is one of the
> > very few countries, and almost certainly the only industrialized nation,
> > left in the world that doesn't officially use the SI system in any normal
> > aspect of daily life (IIRC, a late 70's National Geographic article said
> > that about 95% of the countries in the world had already gone metric).
> > Speed limits, weather, gas, etc; it's as if the US has unconsciously
> > (hopefully not deliberately) decided to go against the flow of the rest of
> > the world in this one area, as if they know better.
>
> Let see. Thousands of Americans die each year because of drinking and
> driving. Raises barley keep rate with inflation. SS and Medicare are both
> predicted to go insolvent within 15 years. We might end up with another war
> in Europe.
>
> Changing the measurement system from ENGLISH to METRIC just does not rank up
> there very high. Priorities need to be set.
Oh please. It's not as if the metric converstion would require all that much
attention or money. If they'd just DO it then there wouldn't be a problem.
Phase it in over ten years, starting with teaching children metric and English,
and then teaching only metric as we phase in the metric system in daily lives.
Andrew Wendel
Brian Watson <ke...@cris.com> wrote in message
news:3707FCE0...@cris.com...
> Andrew Wendel wrote:
>
<SNIP>
> > Let see. Thousands of Americans die each year because of drinking and
> > driving. Raises barley keep rate with inflation. SS and Medicare are
both
> > predicted to go insolvent within 15 years. We might end up with another
war
> > in Europe.
> >
> > Changing the measurement system from ENGLISH to METRIC just does not
rank up
> > there very high. Priorities need to be set.
>
> Oh please. It's not as if the metric converstion would require all that
much
> attention or money. If they'd just DO it then there wouldn't be a
problem.
> Phase it in over ten years, starting with teaching children metric and
English,
> and then teaching only metric as we phase in the metric system in daily
lives.
More of my class work is metric than English or British, but the problem is
not classes. The problem is changing all the tape measures, socket
wrenches, and ASME standards. I can work in any of the three systems. As a
22 year old, nearly college grad, I can deal with any of it given the tools.
The tools are the cost, and they are not always cheap.
James Stutts
H. Chan wrote in message ...
>(This message didn't make it to the newsgroup a few days ago)
>
>
<snip>
>
>There is one area where the rest of the world has already gone to, but
>America seems to be fighting and resisting, kicking and screaming. At the
>risk of offending every American in this newsgroup... What I can't
The question should be: "Why does the rest of the world want to be like
France?" ;)
<snip>
>What the heck is keeping you guys? I'm studying to become an engineer in
>Canada, and was rather annoyed that I would have to learn some of the
Ahh, you're from Upper North Dakota! ;)
>material in imperial measurements, only because our biggest trading
The US doesn't use the actual "Imperial" system. It is a derivative of the
English
imperial system usually referred to as "US Customary Units". US gallons
aren't English gallons,
for example. Consider it all part of your education.
>partner is still using that obsolete system. Some of the US's big European
Well, I AM an engineer in the US. We handle calculations in both SI and
US Statute. Never cared for the slug, but I do think in inches and feet.
It works
for us. One thing I hope they teach you in school is the "ain't broke -
don't fix it"
rule. You CAN easily convert between the two systems. We use both in the
US.
>trading partners have even threatened economic consequences if the US
Well, we might listen when Europe is capable of handling internal problems
without crying for US support... but that's another argument.
JCS
Andrew Wendel
news:7e9csj$srt$1...@camel19.mindspring.com...
>
<SNIP>
> The US doesn't use the actual "Imperial" system. It is a derivative of
the
> English
> imperial system usually referred to as "US Customary Units". US gallons
> aren't English gallons,
> for example. Consider it all part of your education.
>
European
>
> US Statute. Never cared for the slug, but I do think in inches and feet.
> It works
> for us. One thing I hope they teach you in school is the "ain't broke -
> don't fix it"
> rule. You CAN easily convert between the two systems. We use both in the
> US.
James
I am a student at Kansas State. We are not taught the "US Customary Unit",
at least under that name. We are taught three different unit systems, SI
(metric), the English Engineering System, and the British Gravitational
System. The BGS uses force (pound), length (foot), and time (second). The
EES uses force (pound force), length (foot), mass (pound mass) and time
(second). The EES forces the use of gc as a constant in the equality
pound-force = (pound-mass * 32.2 ft/s)/gc
Given your statement about slugs as a mass, do you think that the USES you
refer to is a variation of the BGS? Are there any major differences between
the two?
Oh, this letter was sent to me by a lurker:
>The British have been shifting to the metric system for many years. While I
>can't say we like it (I know what 2lbs of sugar is, a kilo is a meaningless
>number to me) our children haven't been allowed to use inches or feet since
>at least the 70's (I was taught the metric system in school). We have
litres
>for our petrol (gasoline, price presently around 67 pence or over a dollar
a
>litre), centimetres, metres et al for most measurements, and I have no
doubt
>we'll be forced to changed to kilometres an hour on our roads before long.
>America seems to be the only country still sticking to the old Imperial
>measures. Personally, I prefer them. They're more human sized, and they
make
>more intuitive sense (though they are a pig to add up). Nevertheless, with
>the rest of world gone metric, I fear America will be forced to follow
suit,
>and suffer the same expense we have. We even had to get rid of the old 6th
>of a gil measure for spirits and shift to 25 cl, which is perhaps a drop
>more, but you wouldn't know it from the price hike. <sigh>
>
>Shaz
A perspective from someone caught in the middle, wouldn't you say?
H. Chan
<blind...@iname.com> wrote:
> H. Chan <hfc...@engsoc.carleton.ca> wrote in message
> news:hfchan-0404...@ppp48.annex4.carleton.ca...
> <SNIP>
> > There is one area where the rest of the world has already gone to, but
> > America seems to be fighting and resisting, kicking and screaming. At the
> > risk of offending every American in this newsgroup... What I can't
> > understand is why the US can claim to be so advanced and all... yet at the
> > same time not be forward thinking in other respects. Yes, I'm talking
> > about the metric system. I think it's fair to say the US is one of the
> > very few countries, and almost certainly the only industrialized nation,
> > left in the world that doesn't officially use the SI system in any normal
> > aspect of daily life (IIRC, a late 70's National Geographic article said
> > that about 95% of the countries in the world had already gone metric).
> > Speed limits, weather, gas, etc; it's as if the US has unconsciously
> > (hopefully not deliberately) decided to go against the flow of the rest of
> > the world in this one area, as if they know better.
>
> Let see. Thousands of Americans die each year because of drinking and
> driving. Raises barley keep rate with inflation. SS and Medicare are both
> predicted to go insolvent within 15 years. We might end up with another war
> in Europe.
>
> Changing the measurement system from ENGLISH to METRIC just does not rank up
> there very high. Priorities need to be set.
Allocating more funds for drinking and driving programs won't solve the
problem. As for social security and medicare... heh, you haven't seen the
state of either in Canada recently, have you? ;-) The war in Europe is
really irrelavent in this discussion; as I pointed out, it's been a good
20 years since that National Geographic article came out, 20 years before
the current crisis during which a conversion program could have been
implemented (of course, America was involved in a number of other
conflicts during this time, too).
HC
H. Chan
> Andrew Wendel wrote:
>
> > H. Chan <hfc...@engsoc.carleton.ca> wrote in message
> > news:hfchan-0404...@ppp48.annex4.carleton.ca...
> > <SNIP>
> > > There is one area where the rest of the world has already gone to, but
> > > America seems to be fighting and resisting, kicking and screaming. At the
> > > risk of offending every American in this newsgroup... What I can't
> > > understand is why the US can claim to be so advanced and all... yet at the
> > > same time not be forward thinking in other respects. Yes, I'm talking
> > > about the metric system. I think it's fair to say the US is one of the
> > > very few countries, and almost certainly the only industrialized nation,
> > > left in the world that doesn't officially use the SI system in any normal
> > > aspect of daily life (IIRC, a late 70's National Geographic article said
> > > that about 95% of the countries in the world had already gone metric).
> > > Speed limits, weather, gas, etc; it's as if the US has unconsciously
> > > (hopefully not deliberately) decided to go against the flow of the rest of
> > > the world in this one area, as if they know better.
> >
> > Let see. Thousands of Americans die each year because of drinking and
> > driving. Raises barley keep rate with inflation. SS and Medicare are both
> > predicted to go insolvent within 15 years. We might end up with another war
> > in Europe.
> >
> > Changing the measurement system from ENGLISH to METRIC just does not rank up
> > there very high. Priorities need to be set.
>
> Oh please. It's not as if the metric converstion would require all that much
> attention or money. If they'd just DO it then there wouldn't be a problem.
> Phase it in over ten years, starting with teaching children metric and
English,
> and then teaching only metric as we phase in the metric system in daily lives.
It's not like the government would be responsible for converting
everything either; we get a lot of US stations piped up here, including
CNN, and weather reports are always, always in Farenheit, not Celsius
which, until you hit -40 degrees, is always the lower number. No wonder
you guys think Canada is so cold; everytime you cross the border, the
temperature drops 30-40 degrees! ;-). Just as one suggestion for starting
the conversion, if the government were to give broadcasters say two years
to convert their weather forecasting, and maybe other things, then after
that anyone still using the old system could be fined. I'm sure we'd get
some quick conversions there, and if not, then the government would get
some additional funds to convert road signs ;-)
H. Chan
> I think the reason is simpler, and actually more pathetic. They have tried a
> few times, and backed off everytime - I think Congress passed a resolution
> or something to convert in 1978, but they never had the guts to enforce it.
> The reason? The average American who doesn't see beyond the end of his block
> sees it only as a nuisance and something he doesn't need, and doesn't care
> about all the efficiencies it would make in manufacturing. And Congressmen
> are scared to death to do something that they know will aggravate a lot of
> their constituents while at the same time doing nothing to garner them
> additional votes from anyone. Or put another way, there is no significant
> constituancy for change on the domestic political front. This is the point
> where usually something like leadership is supposed to come into play, but
> their seems to have been precious little of that on display here lately.
There's an irony there; as someone pointed out previously, the US imposes
its will and influence on a lot of foreign powers in complicated
situations. Yet now it seems like the government has a hard time imposing
its will and influence on rather straightforward domestic affairs. As for
the nuisance factor... a lot of Canadians resisted the change back in the
seventies, but the government at the time went ahead with the conversion
program. Two years later the vast majority of people (84% I think), during
a poll in which they were asked what high temperature they thought would
be reached that day, responded in Celsius.
> I myself find the metric system far easier to work with, as anyone who has
> ever done anything connected with engineering does. Distances aren't that
> difficult, but anything connected with volumes and liquids is a nightmare
> to work in the English system.
Don't have to work with volumes and liquids myself (I'm in electrical),
but I don't think in feet or inches or Farenheit, so everytime I hear an
old measurement used, I have to mentally convert it.
> > See? Tying back to an earlier point, I'm complaining about something that
> > I have absolutely no control over and can't hope to change. ;-)
>
> It's kind of like telling the English they need to start driving on the
> right side of the road.
That would involve the personal investment in new cars by the British
people, so they'd be much less willing to do so. I don't see how Americans
would be forced to pay over $10,000 during the conversion to metric.
Besides, is driving on the right-hand side inherently better than the
left? There is a quantitative difference between English and metric
systems.
HC
James Stutts
Andrew Wendel wrote in message <7e9fm4$57d$1...@cnn.ksu.ksu.edu>...
>James Stutts <stu...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>news:7e9csj$srt$1...@camel19.mindspring.com...
>>
><SNIP>
>> The US doesn't use the actual "Imperial" system. It is a derivative of
>the
>> English
>> imperial system usually referred to as "US Customary Units". US gallons
>> aren't English gallons,
>> for example. Consider it all part of your education.
>>
>European
>>
>> US Statute. Never cared for the slug, but I do think in inches and feet.
>> It works
>> for us. One thing I hope they teach you in school is the "ain't broke -
>> don't fix it"
>> rule. You CAN easily convert between the two systems. We use both in
the
>> US.
>
>James
>
>I am a student at Kansas State. We are not taught the "US Customary Unit",
>at least under that name. We are taught three different unit systems, SI
More than one name for it. The name refers to US statute units. All
depends
on the text book you refer to, really. There is a US Customary system
and a UK Customary system. A US gallon isn't a UK gallon and the US
uses the short ton, not the long ton. This doesn't affect your physics
calculations
usually. ;) Thus, we you the USCS system, although the official system for
the US
is SI and has been for a century.
>(metric), the English Engineering System, and the British Gravitational
>System. The BGS uses force (pound), length (foot), and time (second). The
>EES uses force (pound force), length (foot), mass (pound mass) and time
>(second). The EES forces the use of gc as a constant in the equality
>pound-force = (pound-mass * 32.2 ft/s)/gc
>
>Given your statement about slugs as a mass, do you think that the USES you
>refer to is a variation of the BGS? Are there any major differences
between
>the two?
The USCS is based on EES (actually vice-versa) best as I can tell. The NIST
doesn't mention the
slug. Slugs are common in older engineering textbooks (and with older
professors).
Personally, I prefer MKS units for work. However, I prefer gallons and
miles in daily life.
We (in the US) were brought up that way. I hope the original poster didn't
take the
"all part of your education" as an insult. An engineer should be conversant
in all of the
major systems of weights and measures.
JCS
Philip R. Columbus
opinion that:
# Andrew Wendel wrote:
#
# > H. Chan <hfc...@engsoc.carleton.ca> wrote in message
# > news:hfchan-0404...@ppp48.annex4.carleton.ca...
# > <SNIP>
# > > There is one area where the rest of the world has already gone to, but
# > > America seems to be fighting and resisting, kicking and screaming. At the
# > > risk of offending every American in this newsgroup... What I can't
# > > understand is why the US can claim to be so advanced and all... yet at the
# > > same time not be forward thinking in other respects. Yes, I'm talking
# > > about the metric system. I think it's fair to say the US is one of the
# > > very few countries, and almost certainly the only industrialized nation,
# > > left in the world that doesn't officially use the SI system in any normal
# > > aspect of daily life (IIRC, a late 70's National Geographic article said
# > > that about 95% of the countries in the world had already gone metric).
# > > Speed limits, weather, gas, etc; it's as if the US has unconsciously
# > > (hopefully not deliberately) decided to go against the flow of the rest of
# > > the world in this one area, as if they know better.
# >
# > Let see. Thousands of Americans die each year because of drinking and
# > driving. Raises barley keep rate with inflation. SS and Medicare are both
# > predicted to go insolvent within 15 years. We might end up with another war
# > in Europe.
# >
# > Changing the measurement system from ENGLISH to METRIC just does not rank up
# > there very high. Priorities need to be set.
#
# Oh please. It's not as if the metric converstion would require all that much
# attention or money. If they'd just DO it then there wouldn't be a problem.
# Phase it in over ten years, starting with teaching children metric and English,
# and then teaching only metric as we phase in the metric system in daily lives.
#
#
I'm not sure you've completely thought this one out. The cost of
conversion would be extremely high; especially if done quickly. Our
measurement systems are such an integral part of our lives we often don't
realize it...and the cost of converting all these systems is great. Just
converting the lumber industry would be an enormous task; which would
impact the home building industry; and then tool industry; etc, etc, etc.
I think this is much bigger than folks think.
Philip R. Columbus
philipc...@home.com
http://members.home.com/philipcolumbus/
AOL IM: mr1492
ICQ# 4786099
Powered by OS/2 Warp Ver. 4
* Cum Dignitate Otium - Leisure With Dignity *
Brian Watson
> On Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:53:26, Brian Watson <ke...@cris.com> expressed the
> opinion that:
>
> # Oh please. It's not as if the metric converstion would require all that much
> # attention or money. If they'd just DO it then there wouldn't be a problem.
> # Phase it in over ten years, starting with teaching children metric and English,
> # and then teaching only metric as we phase in the metric system in daily lives.
> 'm not sure you've completely thought this one out. The cost of
> conversion would be extremely high; especially if done quickly. Our
> measurement systems are such an integral part of our lives we often don't
> realize it...and the cost of converting all these systems is great. Just
> converting the lumber industry would be an enormous task; which would
> impact the home building industry; and then tool industry; etc, etc, etc.
>
> I think this is much bigger than folks think.
So we should continue to wallow in our ignorance and flaunt our unwieldy and
cumbersome English system in the face of science and business, rather than ever
change to the metric system?
Philip R. Columbus
opinion that:
# "Philip R. Columbus" wrote:
#
# > On Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:53:26, Brian Watson <ke...@cris.com> expressed the
# > opinion that:
# >
# > # Oh please. It's not as if the metric converstion would require all that much
# > # attention or money. If they'd just DO it then there wouldn't be a problem.
# > # Phase it in over ten years, starting with teaching children metric and English,
# > # and then teaching only metric as we phase in the metric system in daily lives.
#
# > 'm not sure you've completely thought this one out. The cost of
# > conversion would be extremely high; especially if done quickly. Our
# > measurement systems are such an integral part of our lives we often don't
# > realize it...and the cost of converting all these systems is great. Just
# > converting the lumber industry would be an enormous task; which would
# > impact the home building industry; and then tool industry; etc, etc, etc.
# >
# > I think this is much bigger than folks think.
#
# So we should continue to wallow in our ignorance and flaunt our unwieldy and
# cumbersome English system in the face of science and business, rather than ever
# change to the metric system?
#
#
I don't think that is what I said. However, another thought to consider
is that the US is currently the world's biggest market. Since most of
these decisions are market driven, perhaps the rest of the world is wrong
and we're right <G>
As someone else here said, why do we want so much to be like the French.
Paul McElligott
Metric system and praising the English system for its "elegant simplicity."
Sheesh. Such blind adherence to the obsolete almost makes me physically ill
sometimes!!!
Brian Watson wrote:
> So we should continue to wallow in our ignorance and flaunt our unwieldy and
> cumbersome English system in the face of science and business, rather than ever
> change to the metric system?
--
Paul McElligott
http://home.earthlink.net/~plmcelligott
"Subvert the dominant paradigm"