Evan Chen Not on CRUSADE yet!!!!!!
adna...@hotmail.com
Evan Chen:
"We haven't yet set a composer for Crusade; we're giving a shot to Evan Chen,
a chinese-born classical composer with a strong jazz background, on A Call to
Arms. How that turns out will determine much that follows."
All of you (myself included) who literally HATED and DESPISED the music in CtA
(an otherwise AWESOME movie) can rejoice. If we make our displeasure known,
maybe there's a chance JMS will get Franke, or at least someone else for
Crusade!!!!!
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
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GaryG4430
>All of you (myself included) who literally HATED and DESPISED
>the music in CtA (an otherwise AWESOME movie) can rejoice.
>If we make our displeasure known, maybe there's a chance JMS
>will get Franke, or at least someone else for Crusade!!!!!
>
Greetings:
New here, aren't you?
(BIG SMILEY FACE FOR THE ABOVE!)
I can't think of anything that would better asure that JMS
keeps Chen writing music for Crusade. JMS does not
respond well to threats or pressure.
I take that back. JMS responds VERY WELL to threats
and pressure. Sort of like a mother bear with her cubs
in danger. It isn't safe to stand between JMS and an idea
he thinks is worth defending.
I suggest you take a deep breath and have another listen.
Or learn to ignore it.
I am amazed at the number of violently allergic reactions
to the CtA music. I though it was interesting and a new
approach. I look forward to what Mr. Chen does with it.
I don't love the music yet, and may not. But it wasn't
terrible or offensive.
I think it would be very cool if JMS let Chen "score" a
space battle. Someone said it can be difficult to tell
the difference between the battle sound effects and the
music. I'd like to see someone meld the sound effects
into the music. Sorta like the 1812 Overture.
Thanks for listening,
Gary G.
Gary Grossoehme, Oregon Electronics - 503-239-5293
GaryG4430 "at" aol "dot" com - Member: AfterBurner Fan Club.
"I'm a hologram, dammit, not a Doctor!"
Brian Watson
> I was perusing the Crusade page on Lurkers and I came across this regarding
> Evan Chen:
>
> "We haven't yet set a composer for Crusade; we're giving a shot to Evan Chen,
> a chinese-born classical composer with a strong jazz background, on A Call to
> Arms. How that turns out will determine much that follows."
>
> All of you (myself included) who literally HATED and DESPISED the music in CtA
> (an otherwise AWESOME movie) can rejoice. If we make our displeasure known,
> maybe there's a chance JMS will get Franke, or at least someone else for
> Crusade!!!!!
Jeeze.. can you be any more opinionated? Did you watch ACtA once, twice or three
times? Or more? The music is very different from Franke, granted, but I think
that it's very important to be so. Quite frankly, Franke has been pretty
repetitive in B5, using the same basic music for a large portion of the series.
While that was fine for B5, being it's own series, this is a different show, and
shouldn't have the exact same music. I agree in some parts the music was just not
right at all, but in many parts, the music was fantastic and as far as I'm
concerned perfect for the scene. The music during the end part, after the
Excalibur cleared the cloud and saw what was happening was fabulous! Some of the
early music was just too loud, IMO, and should have been toned down to be
background instead of so upfront and in your face. But you should all listen to
yourselves, and you'll realize you sound the exact same as you had 5 years ago
when Franke took up the score for B5. So many people said he was a hack and his
music was wrong and JMS should bring back the guy who scored the pilot (and to a
certain extent back then, I agreed as well) but after a while, he music matured
and became what you are fighting for to keep right this minute. Give the guy a
chance, I think he'll surprise you.
And for your information, JMS just confirmed that Chen will be the person scoring
Crusade. Happy New Years!
One-Ten
simple fact is that a good musician will not have merely one style. Chen may
well compose music in the future for the show that will be completely
different than the score for "A Call to Arms". Come on, give the poor guy a
chance. He's only scored a single episode so far. Give him a chance to prove
himself in the series. Don't assume that the ACtA score is the only music
he's capable of producing or willing to produce. He's a classical composer.
If he's worth his weight in salt, he'll stretch out and continue to evolve
the music for the show, quite possibly in ways that will win your approval.
Mike
adna...@hotmail.com wrote in message <76r181$9d8$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>I was perusing the Crusade page on Lurkers and I came across this regarding
>Evan Chen:
>
>
>"We haven't yet set a composer for Crusade; we're giving a shot to Evan
Chen,
>a chinese-born classical composer with a strong jazz background, on A Call
to
>Arms. How that turns out will determine much that follows."
>
>
>All of you (myself included) who literally HATED and DESPISED the music in
CtA
>(an otherwise AWESOME movie) can rejoice. If we make our displeasure known,
>maybe there's a chance JMS will get Franke, or at least someone else for
>Crusade!!!!!
>
Mr. Michael A. Benedetto
>
> I was perusing the Crusade page on Lurkers and I came across this
> regarding Evan Chen:
>
>
> "We haven't yet set a composer for Crusade; we're giving a shot to
> Evan Chen, a chinese-born classical composer with a strong jazz
> background, on A Call to Arms. How that turns out will determine
> much that follows."
>
>
> All of you (myself included) who literally HATED and DESPISED the
> music in CtA (an otherwise AWESOME movie) can rejoice. If we make
> our displeasure known, maybe there's a chance JMS will get Franke,
> or at least someone else for Crusade!!!!!
Better cease your rejoicing. According to one of the official pages (I
can't remember which), Chen has been given the nod for the series.
-Mike
Mr. Michael A. Benedetto
ali...@aol.com
>
He's only scored a single episode so far. Give him a chance to prove
> himself in the series. Don't assume that the ACtA score is the only music
> he's capable of producing or willing to produce. He's a classical composer.
I don't know your background, but if you had ever had any experience
with "classical training" you'd understand how meaningless the term
"classically trained" really is when it comes to being a good composer.
adna...@hotmail.com
> But you should all listen
to
> yourselves, and you'll realize you sound the exact same as you had 5 years ago
> when Franke took up the score for B5.
Excuse me? I sound exactly the same as I had 5 years ago? Well maybe If I
called up old Draal and asked him to create a time rift in suburbia Michigan
that took me back 5 years and gave me access to a newsgroup. The fact that I
hadn't even watched a second of B5 until January 1998. (just over 1 year ago)
I've never even heard of the music of the person who scored the original
pilot (since TNT's version is the re-edited one).
Making the judgement that EVERYONE who doesn't like the music is wrong, that
we're just the same people who complained about Franke is an arrogant
assumption. What would you feel if I labeled you a "pathetic fanboy or a JMS
yes-man" because you liked the music? I don't think you are, and it would be
pretty damn arrogant of me to do so, am I right?
(NOTE TO MODERATORS: The above "pathetic fanboy etc" wasn't a flame, just an
example.)
>So many people said he was a hack and
his
> music was wrong and JMS should bring back the guy who scored the pilot (and to
a
> certain extent back then, I agreed as well) but after a while, he music
matured
> and became what you are fighting for to keep right this minute.
I'm sure many people did. I didn't. As hard is it may be for you to see
this....there are people who just didn't like it. We're entitled to our
opinion just as you are entitled to your own.
And for everyone, I wrote the message BEFORE JMS confirmed that CHen was on
Crusade. So now I officially stop my rejoicing and pout. Oh well, it shouldn't
matter too much as long as we get the same kick ass stories we got in B5!!!!
James Bell
<369267B9...@cris.com>...
> adna...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > I was perusing the Crusade page on Lurkers and I came across this
regarding
> > Evan Chen:
> >
> > "We haven't yet set a composer for Crusade; we're giving a shot to Evan
Chen,
> > a chinese-born classical composer with a strong jazz background, on A
Call to
> > Arms. How that turns out will determine much that follows."
> >
> > All of you (myself included) who literally HATED and DESPISED the music
in CtA
> > (an otherwise AWESOME movie) can rejoice. If we make our displeasure
known,
> > maybe there's a chance JMS will get Franke, or at least someone else
for
> > Crusade!!!!!
> Give the guy a
> chance, I think he'll surprise you.
>
> And for your information, JMS just confirmed that Chen will be the person
scoring
> Crusade. Happy New Years!
Of course he did. It is a lot easier for him to say the fans are wrong or
irrelevant than to admit a mistake. Just look at his stubborn misuse of
"Ramming Speed" and his generalizations of all criticism lately as "Trolls,
nothing more." There was a time we could have honest disagreements of
opinion with the guy. Now, if you don't agree with him or dislike
something he has done, you're just a Troll. I think it is sad.
Jim
Wes Struebing
>I was perusing the Crusade page on Lurkers and I came across this regarding
>Evan Chen:
>
>
>"We haven't yet set a composer for Crusade; we're giving a shot to Evan Chen,
>a chinese-born classical composer with a strong jazz background, on A Call to
>Arms. How that turns out will determine much that follows."
>
>
>All of you (myself included) who literally HATED and DESPISED the music in CtA
>(an otherwise AWESOME movie) can rejoice. If we make our displeasure known,
>maybe there's a chance JMS will get Franke, or at least someone else for
>Crusade!!!!!
Nope. Not close. Unless Chen has gone to the rim, he is - and will be - the
composer-of-record for "Crusade". Check out the Crusade web sites for JMS'
quotes concerning this.
Take care; faith manages!
Wes Struebing
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
str...@bwn.net str...@americanisp.com
ph: 303-343-9006 / FAX: 303-343-9026
home page: http://www.bewellnet.com/strueb/index.html
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Brian Watson
> Brian Watson <ke...@cris.com> wrote in article
> <369267B9...@cris.com>...
> > adna...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > > I was perusing the Crusade page on Lurkers and I came across this
> regarding
> > > Evan Chen:
> > >
> > > "We haven't yet set a composer for Crusade; we're giving a shot to Evan
> Chen,
> > > a chinese-born classical composer with a strong jazz background, on A
> Call to
> > > Arms. How that turns out will determine much that follows."
> > > All of you (myself included) who literally HATED and DESPISED the music
> in CtA
> > > (an otherwise AWESOME movie) can rejoice. If we make our displeasure
> known,
> > > maybe there's a chance JMS will get Franke, or at least someone else for
> > > Crusade!!!!!
> <snip>
> > Give the guy a
> > chance, I think he'll surprise you.
> >
> > And for your information, JMS just confirmed that Chen will be the person
> scoring
> > Crusade. Happy New Years!
>
> Of course he did. It is a lot easier for him to say the fans are wrong or
> irrelevant than to admit a mistake. Just look at his stubborn misuse of
> "Ramming Speed" and his generalizations of all criticism lately as "Trolls,
> nothing more." There was a time we could have honest disagreements of
> opinion with the guy. Now, if you don't agree with him or dislike
> something he has done, you're just a Troll. I think it is sad.
Who are you to say he made a mistake? It's his show, his vision, his dream.
Whatever music or actors or sets or stories he chooses to use is his decision,
and by definition, not a mistake. If you didn't like it, that's your
/opinion/, but to state that it was a mistake is a pretty quick and rash
statement that suggests you know better than the shows own creator. As for
"ramming speed," I think you and everyone who are harping over that are
tiresome. It reminds me of the ST skit on Saturday Night live (you know, the
one that the guy who played Kirk got blasted at, because people saw too much of
themselves in it) about the wall safe and such. It's just a statement, meant
to convey that they will all die, but they want to take out their target at the
same time. Big deal. Grow up.
LtTranUFOS
One-Ten
ali...@aol.com wrote in message <36989C...@aol.com>...
So what, he could be a lounge singer, and I would still give him a better
chance than many of the people on this newsgroup. I'm not saying I was
overwhelmed with his efforts on ACtA (in fact, while I was watching the
movie, I kept have flashbacks to a couple of Christmases ago when I was
playing Myst and Riven a lot), but I'm sure the guy is capable of other
styles. That's all I'm saying. You can't judge the guy on one effort. If all
of Babylon 5 had been like the first season, I probably wouldn't have
watched past the second season. Give it some time.
One-Ten
Cronan
Brian Watson wrote
>Jeeze.. can you be any more opinionated?
He could. But then he'd be me. And no one wants that.
Cronan
Cronan
Brian Watson wrote
>Jeeze.. can you be any more opinionated?
He could. But then he'd be me.
Cronan
...and no one wants that
Shane D. Killian
James Bell wrote:
>
> Of course he did. It is a lot easier for him to say the fans are wrong
> or irrelevant than to admit a mistake.
>
this argument is specious at best.
--
Shane D. Killian -- sha...@vnet.net -- http://users.vnet.net/shanek
"uuunnn k mmmmmmk hhhhhhhh khbbbbbbbbbbbh
gnhjjjjjjjjjjj rrrrrrrrrddddfc gvb uyyyyyyyhubbbbbbb"
--Sinclair Mitchell Killian, born 1/29/98
James Bell
> James Bell wrote:
> >
> > Of course he did. It is a lot easier for him to say the fans are wrong
> > or irrelevant than to admit a mistake.
> >
> Joe has admitted up to so many mistakes in the past (e.g., Grey 17) that
> this argument is specious at best.
Actually, you are supporting my main point, that jms has changed. Grey 17
was late season 3. That was a long time ago. Has jms admitted to *any*
season 5 errors? How about season 4? Why not? Were those seasons error
free? Were the errors not pointed out here on the newsgroups?
Jim
Jms at B5
would not have him on as composer on the series.
But it was not an error, as testified by the many folks who've come out of the
woodwork (many of them musicians) to say that they loved the music on ACTA.
Your opinion is your opinion, and that's fine...but there are other opinions
just as valid. So don't use your opinion as proof that an error of fact has
taken place, and thus that I'm not admitting it somehow being indicative that
I've changed.
And Evan *is* doing the music on the series. We've scored three so far, and he
continues to improve with every episode, as Chris Franke improved with every
episode. WB thinks he's a genuine find.
We will soon be putting up the main title for CRUSADE on thestation.com, and
you can see some more of what he's doing musically, and I have to say it's
great.
I have no intention of making a change in composers for CRUSADE.
jms
(jms...@aol.com)
B5 Official Fan Club at:
http://www.thestation.com
Philip R. Columbus
opinion that:
# James Bell wrote:
#
# Who are you to say he made a mistake? It's his show, his vision, his dream.
# Whatever music or actors or sets or stories he chooses to use is his decision,
# and by definition, not a mistake. If you didn't like it, that's your
# /opinion/, but to state that it was a mistake is a pretty quick and rash
# statement that suggests you know better than the shows own creator. As for
# "ramming speed," I think you and everyone who are harping over that are
# tiresome. It reminds me of the ST skit on Saturday Night live (you know, the
# one that the guy who played Kirk got blasted at, because people saw too much of
# themselves in it) about the wall safe and such. It's just a statement, meant
# to convey that they will all die, but they want to take out their target at the
# same time. Big deal. Grow up.
#
#
#
Excuse me, but I don't think that criticism is out of bounds. Otherwise,
we should all just check our intellect at the door and become "fanboys."
Your comment implies (maybe not your intent but it appears so to me) that
_no_ criticism is warranted because it's JMS's show.
And you can put me on the list of those who cringe everytime I hear
"ramming speed" on B5. Let's put this in some historical perspective.
"Ramming speed" is derived from the days of ancient warships. Many of
them were equipped with a long ram on the front of the vessel. They were
_designed_ to ram into opposing ships, hole them below the water line, and
disengage. The implication that it was built into the ship based on the
tactics and techology of the time.
I see no technological or tactical similarity to the ships in the B5
universe. They do not appear to be designed to impact another ship or
object, damage that ship or object, and reverse with no damage.
Therefore, to give an order asking for "ramming speed" seems to me a
non-sequitor.
I will admit that even today, we sometimes use vehicles for other than
their designed purposes. Police will sometimes use their vehicles to stop
a vehicle they are pursuing. However, they don't have a command like
"ramming speed" to define it which implies a built in ability that doesn't
exist.
I hope you understand that my problem is that the term appears imprecise
and not in keeping with the technology of the ships or their established
tactics. It is the continued use of the term by JMS that bothers me a
little is all.
Phil Columbus
Philip R. Columbus
philipc...@home.com
http://members.home.com/philipcolumbus/
AOL IM: mr1492
ICQ# 4786099
* Cum Dignitate Otium - Leisure With Dignity *
Lori Holuta
(some snippage)
>And Evan *is* doing the music on the series. We've scored three so far,
and he
>continues to improve with every episode, as Chris Franke improved with
every
>episode. WB thinks he's a genuine find.
...and I for one, am glad. I liked his music in ACTA, mainly because it was
different than the mood and feel of Franke's. It helped me 'change gears'
into a new series with new plots and premises. I felt at that time that he
had room to grow and merge into the series, as we all will, and that the
music will reflect that. I'm hoping that's how it will progress, and your
note here seems to indicate that you believe it will.
I've always enjoyed watching bands or musicians grow in their music. A lot
of my personal collection consists of an artist's first few albums, and
tends to stop at the point where they have stopped growing, usually when
they hit the mainstream and have developed a successful formula sound. I
like the progress and experimentation stages. With Chen, I can watch the
process and enjoy it once again.
>We will soon be putting up the main title for CRUSADE on thestation.com,
and
>you can see some more of what he's doing musically, and I have to say it's
>great.
I'll look for it. Thanks for the heads-up, I haven't been to thestation.com
in quite a while.
--
Lori - MSTie #34964
Official Unofficial Prop Diva of RATMM & Comptroller of G.E.E.K.S.
A Tribute To John Agar - http://www.msu.edu/user/holuta/agar/agar.htm
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Remove the Spoo (Yum!) to respond via e-mail.
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aboard yon bigass ship." -- Carl Burke
sgwm
rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated jms...@aol.com (Jms at
B5)wrote:
>And Evan *is* doing the music on the series.
>WB thinks he's a genuine find.
>I have no intention of making a change in composers for CRUSADE.
> jms
This is good news.
I got my ACTA tape yesterday and as I thought the complaints
are over the top. I like Chen's work, it's original,
different and I'm glad to say, taking a risk.
--
"The day a studio begins messing around with a
show is when it pretty much becomes doomed."
J.M.Straczynski
on Genie
Sergey Bukhman
Jms at B5 wrote:
>
>
> We will soon be putting up the main title for CRUSADE on thestation.com, and
> you can see some more of what he's doing musically, and I have to say it's
> great.
>
> I have no intention of making a change in composers for CRUSADE.
> jms
>
Will the Crusade opening theme and opening credits change with every season, like
B5?
--
Sergey
------
The Official Antichrist.
Brian D. Schenck
Columbus) wrote:
>I hope you understand that my problem is that the term appears imprecise
>and not in keeping with the technology of the ships or their established
>tactics. It is the continued use of the term by JMS that bothers me a
>little is all.
>
So, pretty much, the reason people are nitpicking the use of the term
"ramming speed" is one of technological and precise usage, as opposed
to just a personal interpretation?
--
Brian D. Schenck
mail to: shr...@wam.umd.edu
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Orion/2976/
"Poit! Zort! Narffff...." - From the collected sayings of Pinky
Join the fight against SPAM! Visit http://www.cauce.org and lend your
support!
Read the RGMW FAQ! - http://www.sheppard.demon.co.uk/rgmw_faq/rgmw_faq.htm
Shane D. Killian
>
> And Evan *is* doing the music on the series. We've scored three so far,
> and he continues to improve with every episode, as Chris Franke improved
>
Great...*ANOTHER* thing to keep me biting my nails until June!
WHY DID THERE HAVE TO BE AN NBA SEASON?!??!??!?!?!???
Jms at B5
>like
>B5?
Dunno yet...probably, though to what extent, I don't know. We just finished
this one, and it was the toughest one we've done, and the most unusual, so I
don't even want to think about the next one yet.
Stanley Friesen
>On 26 Jan 1999 08:55:07 -0700, in
>rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated jms...@aol.com (Jms at
>B5)wrote:
>
>>And Evan *is* doing the music on the series.
>
>>WB thinks he's a genuine find.
>
>>I have no intention of making a change in composers for CRUSADE.
>> jms
>
>This is good news.
>
>I got my ACTA tape yesterday and as I thought the complaints
>are over the top. I like Chen's work, it's original,
>different and I'm glad to say, taking a risk.
I didn't notice anything particularly inappropriate about the music
either. Indeed, it seemed to blend right in with the overall mood of
the piece - which is what I think mood music is *supposed* to do.
The fact is that ACTA differs from B5 is general mood, even without the
music, and in spite of having so many characters in common.
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
Wayne Throop
:: As for "ramming speed," I think you and everyone who are harping over
:: that are tiresome. It reminds me of the ST skit on Saturday Night
:: live (you know, the one that the guy who played Kirk got blasted at,
:: because people saw too much of themselves in it) about the wall safe
:: and such. It's just a statement, meant to convey that they will all
:: die, but they want to take out their target at the same time. Big
:: deal. Grow up.
It would have been better for him to have said
"Row! Row like the wind!"
I mean, if he's going to say something ridiculous and pretend it's
covered by artistic license, then make it really ridiculous.
(Note: JMS doesn't claim it's covered by artistic license;
that's just what it seemed Watson was doing above.)
And if we need to tell the viewers the crew will die, well you have the
Crusty But Lovable Seargent growl "Row, and put your backs into it! You
want to live forever?".
: philipc...@home.com (Philip R. Columbus)
: Excuse me, but I don't think that criticism is out of bounds.
: Otherwise, we should all just check our intellect at the door and
: become "fanboys." Your comment implies (maybe not your intent but it
: appears so to me) that _no_ criticism is warranted because it's JMS's show.
Yeah. What HE said.
Wayne Throop thr...@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
Philip Columbus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Original Message <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
On 1-27-99, 12:00:35 AM, shr...@wam.umd.edu (Brian D. Schenck) wrote
regarding Re: Evan Chen Not on CRUSADE yet!!!!!! (Ramming Speed
Comment):
> --
Brian,
Yes, I think that about sums it up; although I might not use the term
nitpicking. I think it just hit some folks who were familiar with
either the science or military terminology as odd. Additionally,
JMS's defense was a little weak, too. If you remember, he defined it
as the speed at which you'd have to be going so that you could not
veer away and miss the target. With that definition, "ramming speed"
would decrease as you approached the target. Not quite what he had in
mind which is what set some of us off I suppose.
Anyway, nice discussion of an interesting (if not exceptionally
importatant nit!)
Phil Columbus
Rob Levandowski
(Jms at B5) wrote:
>But it was not an error, as testified by the many folks who've come out of the
>woodwork (many of them musicians) to say that they loved the music on ACTA.
>Your opinion is your opinion, and that's fine...but there are other opinions
>just as valid. So don't use your opinion as proof that an error of fact has
>taken place, and thus that I'm not admitting it somehow being indicative that
>I've changed.
I've been thinking about my original opinion... and (as usual), Joe, your
words are very persuasive. :)
My initial reaction to ACTA's music was dislike, but I've never liked
dissonant music. For that matter, I've got ADD, and a common trait of
that can be a dislike of change of routine. And it was not the music I
normally associate with Sheridan et al., so it didn't "feel right"... but
with a new cast, there's no old feeling to associate with the music, so it
may seem less jarring when the new series starts.
Now, I haven't completely changed my mind -- I'm not about to run out and
buy the ACTA soundtrack -- but Evan's got your recommendation, and that's
worth one huge dollop of benefit of the doubt. If he is just starting
out, then he does need room to discover what works and what doesn't... and
having been in too many jobs where the training regieme was "sink or
swim," I certainly can't deny him the learning time. It seems to me that,
as a novice to television composing, Evan's in a "sink or swim" position
not through any negligence of his bosses (which is the usual case in
industry) but simply because of the nature of the job.
I hope that Evan's style will grow into something I find more enjoyable.
If not, well, maybe someday I can pull enough creativity out of my ass to
start my own TV series with its own five-year plan and music that's to
*my* tastes... but I doubt it :)
--
Rob Levandowski
ro...@macwhiz.com
Lori Holuta
>>Will the Crusade opening theme and opening credits change with every
season,
>>like
>>B5?
>
>Dunno yet...probably, though to what extent, I don't know. We just
finished
>this one, and it was the toughest one we've done, and the most unusual, so
I
>don't even want to think about the next one yet.
>
> jms
Well, when you *do* feel up to thinking about it, I hope that you do
consider changing the opening theme somewhat each year. Even though I'm not
looking for a carryover of musical stuff from Babylon 5, one thing I really
liked was that change in the theme each year. The music did such a
beautiful job of summing up the overall emotion of each season and
reflecting it back to us. The final season's music carried such a sense of
triumph, completion, freshness and the kind of optimisim that only comes
when you've traveled a long dark tunnel and come out the other side alive.
(Bad description, but I don't think I can do better, I've tried a few
times).
I'd like that concept to exist in Crusade, as well. It's such a rarity on
television.
Hoping,
Lori
sgwm
rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated sar...@ix.netcom.com
(Stanley Friesen)wrote:
>The peace of God be with you.
Thanks but no thanks. You have no idea how uneasily that
sits with me. :o)
Shane D. Killian
>
> Yes, I think that about sums it up; although I might not use the term
> nitpicking. I think it just hit some folks who were familiar with
> either the science or military terminology as odd. Additionally,
> JMS's defense was a little weak, too. If you remember, he defined it
> as the speed at which you'd have to be going so that you could not
> veer away and miss the target. With that definition, "ramming speed"
> would decrease as you approached the target. Not quite what he had in
> mind which is what set some of us off I suppose.
>
enough to break the threshhold where you would be able to veer away, but
to completely ignore the threshholds altogether. In other words,
"Maximum speed" would be "Maximum speed within safety limits." But
"Ramming speed" would be, "Damn the safety limits, give 'er everything
she's got from everywhere she can and *hit* that m----- f-----!!!!"
The idea is that you're going to say, "Override safety limits, go to
maximum speed, plot a course to hit that ship, and everyone bend over,
put your head between your legs, and kiss your a-- goodbye!" All with
just three syllables. Considering that this is used as a last resort,
this efficiency would be necessary.
Brian D. Schenck
<philipc...@home.com> wrote:
>On 1-27-99, 12:00:35 AM, shr...@wam.umd.edu (Brian D. Schenck) wrote
>regarding Re: Evan Chen Not on CRUSADE yet!!!!!! (Ramming Speed
>Comment):
>
>> So, pretty much, the reason people are nitpicking the use of the term
>> "ramming speed" is one of technological and precise usage, as opposed
>> to just a personal interpretation?
>
>Brian,
>
>Yes, I think that about sums it up; although I might not use the term
>nitpicking. I think it just hit some folks who were familiar with
>either the science or military terminology as odd. Additionally,
>JMS's defense was a little weak, too. If you remember, he defined it
>as the speed at which you'd have to be going so that you could not
>veer away and miss the target. With that definition, "ramming speed"
>would decrease as you approached the target. Not quite what he had in
>mind which is what set some of us off I suppose.
>
>Anyway, nice discussion of an interesting (if not exceptionally
>importatant nit!)
>
Well, sure, there is some technical term for "ramming speed". There's
probably a lot of other one's as well. But, the point has been made
before, it doesn't have to be precise and exacting. It just has to get
across. The audience understood it, the crew certainly understood it,
and it worked.
Oh well, it's interesting to watch what people have to say. So, you're
right on that last point.
Gary Farber
: Philip Columbus wrote:
:>
:> Yes, I think that about sums it up; although I might not use the term
:> nitpicking. I think it just hit some folks who were familiar with
:> either the science or military terminology as odd. Additionally,
:> JMS's defense was a little weak, too. If you remember, he defined it
:> as the speed at which you'd have to be going so that you could not
:> veer away and miss the target. With that definition, "ramming speed"
:> would decrease as you approached the target. Not quite what he had in
:> mind which is what set some of us off I suppose.
: IIRC, he explained it as going the ship's actual full speed
Um, this is a non-existent concept. It is meaningless. The only
possible maximum speed is light speed. This is simple ninth-grade
physics. What part of this do you not understand?
So long as thrust is applied, your speed increases. It continues to
increase forever, never quite reaching lightspeed. How many times must
people state simple facts of physics?
[. . . .]
--
Copyright 1999 by Gary Farber; Web Researcher; Nonfiction Writer,
Fiction and Nonfiction Editor; gfa...@panix.com; B'klyn, NYC, US
Jms at B5
>possible maximum speed is light speed. This is simple ninth-grade
>physics. What part of this do you not understand?
>
>So long as thrust is applied, your speed increases. It continues to
>increase forever, never quite reaching lightspeed. How many times must
>people state simple facts of physics?
This is true only if you do continue to maintain thrust without ever turning
off your engines. Which means you would burn out your engines, or run out of
fuel.
This is a pedantic point. Maximum speed would refer to what this given
starship can do in regular operations, with finite fuel and common-sense
applied to how long and how hard you burn the engines. A Starfury knows what
its maximum speed is if it ever hopes to return home; it's the OPERATING system
we're talking about, not the greater laws of physics in the universe. A pilot
just needs to know "How fast can I push this puppy?" Yeah, a jet fighter can
exceed specs...and he'll black out, burn out, and crash.
This is a case of not seeing forest for the trees.
Gary Farber
:>Will the Crusade opening theme and opening credits change with every season,
:>like
:>B5?
: Dunno yet...probably, though to what extent, I don't know. We just finished
: this one, and it was the toughest one we've done, and the most unusual, so I
: don't even want to think about the next one yet.
I have to say that while people are entitled to their taste, JMS has been
given an extraordinary amount of abuse on the issue of the Crusade/ACtA
music. I'm not sure how I'll react to a continued dose of Evan Chen, but
I'm perfectly happy to wait and see. I think it would be reasonable for
others to do likewise, or to at least be polite in their objections.
Beyond being polite, they might at least wait until they've sampled a few
more episodes of it, and *then* they'll have a more substantive basis for
an actual reaction.
Jay Denebeim
Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com> wrote:
>This is a pedantic point. Maximum speed would refer to what this given
>starship can do in regular operations, with finite fuel and common-sense
>applied to how long and how hard you burn the engines. A Starfury knows what
>its maximum speed is if it ever hopes to return home; it's the OPERATING system
>we're talking about, not the greater laws of physics in the universe. A pilot
>just needs to know "How fast can I push this puppy?" Yeah, a jet fighter can
>exceed specs...and he'll black out, burn out, and crash.
Joe, the thing is this isn't really pedantic. Speed is a meaningless
concept unless it's given in relation to something else. Here on
earth we've got this big honkin ground thing that's the obvious thing
to measure against.
In space *relative* speed is the only speed there is, just like on
earth. You can have speed relative to a target. This is why we point
to Sinclair's line in A Sky Full of Stars. He indicated a target,
then indicated a thrust (all of it :-)). That made sense.
Giving an order that is only a 'speed' is meaningless. You can't just
point your ship at something and hit the gas petal, you've still got
your old velocity vector to kill. (much like you can't push coffins
out towards the sun and expect them to reach it)
Granted, the helmsman could have figured out what Sheridan ment from
the context of what he'd heard them talking about right before the
order was given. However, the order itself was meaningless, out of
context the helmsman could not have followed the order. "Target
object at x,y, full emergency thrust" is about as brief as you could
get and still give a meaningfull order.
Jay
--
* Jay Denebeim Moderator rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated *
* newsgroup submission address: b5...@deepthot.ml.org *
* moderator contact address: b5mod-...@deepthot.ml.org *
* personal contact address: dene...@deepthot.ml.org *
David Nott
> >Um, this is a non-existent concept. It is meaningless. The only
> >possible maximum speed is light speed. This is simple ninth-grade
> >physics. What part of this do you not understand?
> >
> >So long as thrust is applied, your speed increases. It continues to
> >increase forever, never quite reaching lightspeed. How many times must
> >people state simple facts of physics?
>
> This is true only if you do continue to maintain thrust without ever turning
> off your engines. Which means you would burn out your engines, or run out of
> fuel.
>
> This is a pedantic point. Maximum speed would refer to what this given
> starship can do in regular operations, with finite fuel and common-sense
> applied to how long and how hard you burn the engines. A Starfury knows what
> its maximum speed is if it ever hopes to return home; it's the OPERATING system
> we're talking about, not the greater laws of physics in the universe. A pilot
> just needs to know "How fast can I push this puppy?" Yeah, a jet fighter can
> exceed specs...and he'll black out, burn out, and crash.
>
> This is a case of not seeing forest for the trees.
>
Another useful and accurate term it would be nice to see characters use is "delta vee."
Problem is, only folks who have taken physics, or are just plain nuts about the space
program & read science fiction (guilty on both counts, your honor :-) would understand
the term.
(For the curious: "delta vee" is another way of referring to acceleration. The letter delta is
used to symbolize change in a quantity in physics. A vehicle/engine system, with a certain
amount of fuel on board, is capable of some finite amount of delta vee, the amount of change
the vehicle can make in its velocity.)
Jay Denebeim
sgwm <sg...@maitreya.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 26 Jan 1999 22:43:58 -0700, in
>rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated sar...@ix.netcom.com
>(Stanley Friesen)wrote:
>
>>The peace of God be with you.
>
>Thanks but no thanks. You have no idea how uneasily that
>sits with me. :o)
Me too. It irritates me every time I have to approve one of his
posts. I haven't said anything about it before because I never
thought it was worth making a post by itself over, and he never says
anything I feel like replying to.
Chris Carter
dene...@deepthot.ml.org (Jay Denebeim) wrote:
:
: In article <36bb5471...@post.demon.co.uk>,
: sgwm <sg...@maitreya.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: >On 26 Jan 1999 22:43:58 -0700, in
: >rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated sar...@ix.netcom.com
: >(Stanley Friesen)wrote:
: >
: >>The peace of God be with you.
: >
: >Thanks but no thanks. You have no idea how uneasily that
: >sits with me. :o)
:
: Me too. It irritates me every time I have to approve one of his
: posts.
Just pretend he's actually saying, "May the Force be with you," and
everything will be groovy.
--
Chris Carter <*> car...@q7.com
Unaffiliated with both Q7 Enterprises and FOX TV.
"To succeed would take more resources than Planet Earth can supply me."
-- Dr. Vernon Danger
c...@zipcon.net
: Granted, the helmsman could have figured out what Sheridan ment from
: the context of what he'd heard them talking about right before the
: order was given. However, the order itself was meaningless, out of
: context the helmsman could not have followed the order.
So lemme get this straight:
a) The order requires context in order to be understood.
b) The helmsman has that context.
And further, I am willing to bet that we have never seen an instance
yet in B5 where the specific order "ramming speed" was given where there
wasn't context for it.
Ergo.... um, guys... KNOCK IT OFF, WOULD YOU PLEASE?
Fer chrissakes, there are SO many examples of really awkward dialogue in
the series. Why are you jumping funky on such a non-issue?
On an average day, I could take a sentence out of just about anyone's
conversation, newspaper, Usenet post, etc., say it to someone else and get
just blank stare. You're got a strawman argument. Give it the hell up
already.
Philip R. Columbus
expressed the opinion that:
# Philip Columbus wrote:
# >
# > Yes, I think that about sums it up; although I might not use the term
# > nitpicking. I think it just hit some folks who were familiar with
# > either the science or military terminology as odd. Additionally,
# > JMS's defense was a little weak, too. If you remember, he defined it
# > as the speed at which you'd have to be going so that you could not
# > veer away and miss the target. With that definition, "ramming speed"
# > would decrease as you approached the target. Not quite what he had in
# > mind which is what set some of us off I suppose.
# >
# IIRC, he explained it as going the ship's actual full speed--not just
# enough to break the threshhold where you would be able to veer away, but
# to completely ignore the threshholds altogether. In other words,
# "Maximum speed" would be "Maximum speed within safety limits." But
# "Ramming speed" would be, "Damn the safety limits, give 'er everything
# she's got from everywhere she can and *hit* that m----- f-----!!!!"
#
# The idea is that you're going to say, "Override safety limits, go to
# maximum speed, plot a course to hit that ship, and everyone bend over,
# put your head between your legs, and kiss your a-- goodbye!" All with
# just three syllables. Considering that this is used as a last resort,
# this efficiency would be necessary.
#
# --
# Shane D. Killian -- sha...@vnet.net -- http://users.vnet.net/shanek
# "uuunnn k mmmmmmk hhhhhhhh khbbbbbbbbbbbh
# gnhjjjjjjjjjjj rrrrrrrrrddddfc gvb uyyyyyyyhubbbbbbb"
# --Sinclair Mitchell Killian, born 1/29/98
#
Shane,
Sorry, I must disagree. The following is a post from JMS I found on
Dejanews on this subject. Read it closely and see if I'm not correct. By
the definition below, the closer I get to my target, the lower my "ramming
speed" will be! It's been many years since high school and college
physics courses but this one's, as my esteemed professors used to say, is
"intuitively obvious."
I suppose this might be considered an exercise in picking nits (if nits
can be picked...and after they're picked, should they be vacuum packed...I
just don't know) but I'm just not satisfied with JMS's responses on this
one. I am not criticising his writing or pacing or production skills but
rather that the science is wrong. He would be justifiably angry if I made
a statement about writing or producing a TV show since I don't have any
background in the field. I can provide my opinion of how his work
affected me or how I compare it to other works; but I can't *really*
comment on his technique or skills since I, admittedly, don't have skills
in those areas.
However, some of us have skills in other areas upon which we do feel
qualified to speak with a semblence of authority and this is one of them.
I have a Bachelors degree in Mechanical Engineering from an accredited
institution (no cracks about needing to be institutionalized, please) with
a Minor in English. I do understand these things and JMS's answer is just
incorrect. It may have been written well, have dramatic tension, and be
just inches away from a Nobel Prize in Literature but it fails the science
test.
We all get upset when a TV show misrepresents something with which we're
familiar. I'm certain lawyers sometimes get upset at TV when actors do
things that are incorrect. Would they be wrong in bringing their
expertise to bear on an issue? I think not. So why is wrong for those of
us who are aware of some of the physical laws governing movement in space
to raise objections when those laws are either incorrectly shown or
interpreted incorrectly by the writer? I see no difference.
And for those who continue to be critical of our intensity about this
issue, get over it.
**************************************************************************
*************
Re: Endgame ( *Spoilers* )
Author: Jms at B5 <jms...@aol.com>
Date: 1997/10/16
Forum: rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated
>Same with "ramming speed". There simply isn't one speed that's better
>for ramming than other speeds.
>But just asking for "ramming speed" is Just Plain Silly.
>It can be retconned, it can be foregiven, but it's Just Plain Silly.
(he taps his foot as yet another expert lurches into the field)
You are in a space ship, in a vacuum, heading toward target X. You
understand
that it takes time to transfer energy and movement toward another plane,
so
you go at X-speed toward that object if you want the option of applying
thrusters and angling away from the object before you slam into it.
If, on the other hand, you *want* to hit the object, and you have no
interest
in holding back your thrusters to allow you to diverge from the target in
the
amount of space remaining between you and it, you proceed at Y speed,
with
your thrusters putting out their maximum amount of fuel.
Y = ramming speed.
jms
**************************************************************************
***************
son...@jaguarsystems.com
he
> continues to improve with every episode, as Chris Franke improved with every
>
I'm glad you are keeping him on. I enjoyed his music. My husband and I
listened, and criticized, and all that -- while we followed A Call to Arms.
We noticed something he did that we've never heard done before. He used his
music to blend in with, and help create, the special effects noises.
Sometimes it was a little overwhelming -- but I think that'll change as he
experiments with blending special sound effects into the music.
I don't know if I made sense here or not. It's sometimes hard for me to put
my thoughts on music into words.
Anyway, I like him.
sondra
http://ww.jaguarsystems.com/sondra
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
WWS
Jay Denebeim wrote:
> >(Stanley Friesen)wrote:
> >
> >>The peace of God be with you.
> >
> >Thanks but no thanks. You have no idea how uneasily that
> >sits with me. :o)
>
> Me too. It irritates me every time I have to approve one of his
> posts. I haven't said anything about it before because I never
> thought it was worth making a post by itself over, and he never says
> anything I feel like replying to.
>
> Jay
Take a pill and chill, dood. Seems like life, the universe, and
everything is getting you down, lighten up! I hear Prozac is
quite popular these days.
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
I have a sound effects CD with a sample of a camel making a really
nasty noise. I used to call my friends up at 3am and play that sound,
then hang up. I know that inside they were laughing, but they still
got the restraining order.
AndroidCat
>
<snip>
>We all get upset when a TV show misrepresents something with which we're
>familiar. I'm certain lawyers sometimes get upset at TV when actors do
>things that are incorrect. Would they be wrong in bringing their
>expertise to bear on an issue? I think not. So why is wrong for those of
>us who are aware of some of the physical laws governing movement in space
>to raise objections when those laws are either incorrectly shown or
>interpreted incorrectly by the writer? I see no difference.
>
>And for those who continue to be critical of our intensity about this
>issue, get over it.
<inserts tongue in cheek>
Okay, how about this: That ship used "organic technology", and at least the
Vorlon ships definitely qualified as living beings. Maybe when he called
for "Ramming speed", teams of crewmembers started flogging the engines with
whips, while another started beating on a drum?
(Yeah, I know--they did the same Ramming Speed thing on one of those Earth
Force Rube Goldberg whirly contraptions. Oops. Never mind.)
I wonder.. Did the Vorlons build their ships? Or breed them?
/\< of that ilk.
sgwm
>>Um, this is a non-existent concept. It is meaningless. The only
>>possible maximum speed is light speed. This is simple ninth-grade
>>physics. What part of this do you not understand?
>>
>>So long as thrust is applied, your speed increases. It continues to
>>increase forever, never quite reaching lightspeed. How many times must
>>people state simple facts of physics?
>
>This is true only if you do continue to maintain thrust without ever turning
>off your engines. Which means you would burn out your engines, or run out of
>fuel.
>
>This is a pedantic point. Maximum speed would refer to what this given
>starship can do in regular operations, with finite fuel and common-sense
>applied to how long and how hard you burn the engines. A Starfury knows what
>its maximum speed is if it ever hopes to return home; it's the OPERATING system
>we're talking about, not the greater laws of physics in the universe. A pilot
>just needs to know "How fast can I push this puppy?" Yeah, a jet fighter can
>exceed specs...and he'll black out, burn out, and crash.
>
>This is a case of not seeing forest for the trees.
No its a case of being, and I really hate to use the phrase,
scientifically illiterate, as well as working without a
science adviser.
In fact what you point out above is wholly false because the
key element here is air resistance. While it applies to an
earthbound jet pilot the same is not true of a space ship.
With no air resistance, or equivalent, their range is not
limited like a jet which has to constantly burn fuel just to
maintain a constant velocity.
However, returning more closely to the point in question as
we're diverging from it here. We're not talking long range.
We're specifically talking short range and how to carry out
a ram the most effective way. The highest probability of
success comes by ramming the target in as short a time frame
as possible: so the target can't evade you in time or shoot
you to pieces as you bear down on them. The standard order
for any spaceship who has an order to ram would be to
accelerate at full thrust all the way in to the target,
thereby making the shortest possible journey and the highest
probability of smashing into the target for the
aforementioned reasons.
You can dismiss it as pedantic all you want but speed in
this context, is simply meaningless. Many people have said
so. Many people have explained why. If this was Ben Hur and
I was watching Roman galleys bashing the living daylights
out of each other it would have been perfect. But its not.
This is space we're talking about and the two are like chalk
and cheese.
sgwm
rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated car...@q7.com (Chris
Carter)wrote:
>In article <78opmr$if9$1...@marvin.deepthot.ml.org>,
> dene...@deepthot.ml.org (Jay Denebeim) wrote:
>:
>: In article <36bb5471...@post.demon.co.uk>,
>: sgwm <sg...@maitreya.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>: >On 26 Jan 1999 22:43:58 -0700, in
>: >rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated sar...@ix.netcom.com
>: >(Stanley Friesen)wrote:
>: >
>: >>The peace of God be with you.
>: >
>: >Thanks but no thanks. You have no idea how uneasily that
>: >sits with me. :o)
>:
>: Me too. It irritates me every time I have to approve one of his
>: posts.
>
>Just pretend he's actually saying, "May the Force be with you," and
>everything will be groovy.
Nah, the one I'm looking for is "May you be lucky and win
the lottery". Now that would be a blessing.
Shane D. Killian
>
> In rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated <36AF9F45...@vnet.net> Shane D. Killian <sha...@vnet.net> wrote:
> :
>
> Um, this is a non-existent concept.
>
ship. IOW, full acceleratrion. Happy?
If you're approaching an object at speed X (relative to the object
you're going to hit), there comes a point for some value of X that you
wouldn't have time to maneuver away from the object.
--
Shane D. Killian -- sha...@vnet.net -- http://users.vnet.net/shanek
"uuunnn k mmmmmmk hhhhhhhh khbbbbbbbbbbbh
gnhjjjjjjjjjjj rrrrrrrrrddddfc gvb uyyyyyyyhubbbbbbb"
Shane D. Killian
>
> No its a case of being, and I really hate to use the phrase,
> scientifically illiterate,
>
a military officer who pushes a button.
Shane D. Killian
>
> Shane,
>
> Sorry, I must disagree.
>
> The following is a post from JMS I found on Dejanews on this subject.
> Read it closely and see if I'm not correct. By the definition below,
> the closer I get to my target, the lower my "ramming speed" will be!
>
Um, no, the lower your *maximum* speed would be, since that would be
understood to be the maximum within safety limits. Again, "ramming
speed" is not intended by any stretch to be "just a tick over maximum
speed"--it's all the acceleration you can pour into her.
In other words, there's not a little mark on the dial labelled "ramming
speed." It's a concise order that tells the crew in the shortest way
possible that we're going to smack into that ship as hard as we can.
> However, some of us have skills in other areas upon which we do feel
> qualified to speak with a semblence of authority and this is one of
> them. I have a Bachelors degree in Mechanical Engineering from an
> accredited institution (no cracks about needing to be institutionalized,
> please)
>
Well, now, just *take* all the fun out of it, why don't ya! :^)
> with a Minor in English. I do understand these things and JMS's answer
> is just incorrect.
>
If the scene were with a bunch of scientists and engineers plotting a
course for an unmanned probe or something, then I would agree. But this
is a military order given out in combat by and to non-scientists.
What did you want?
INT. SHIP'S C&C
CAPTAIN
Okay, bring the ship's engines to within a 90-degree perpendicular
to
our target object's current vector, override automatic safety
systems, calculate the delta-v to intercept the ship, accounting
for
its present vector at the time of collision, and apply maximum
thrust
to the engines opposite calculated delta-v to achieve the greatest
amount of kinetic energy transferred to the target at impact.
HELMSMAN
(who was with him all the way up to "Okay")
Huh?
CAPTAIN
Well, you just--
EXT. SPACE
(ship is blown to smithereens by the bad guys)
FADE OUT
> And for those who continue to be critical of our intensity about this
> issue, get over it.
>
And for those who continue to be critical of our continuing to be
critical of yoru intensity about this issue, also get over it.
Your turn. :^)
--
Shane D. Killian -- sha...@vnet.net -- http://users.vnet.net/shanek
"uuunnn k mmmmmmk hhhhhhhh khbbbbbbbbbbbh
gnhjjjjjjjjjjj rrrrrrrrrddddfc gvb uyyyyyyyhubbbbbbb"
Philip R. Columbus
expressed the opinion that:
# "Philip R. Columbus" wrote:
# >
# > Shane,
# >
# > Sorry, I must disagree.
# >
# As is your perogative.
#
# > The following is a post from JMS I found on Dejanews on this subject.
# > Read it closely and see if I'm not correct. By the definition below,
# > the closer I get to my target, the lower my "ramming speed" will be!
# >
# Um, no, the lower your *maximum* speed would be, since that would be
# understood to be the maximum within safety limits. Again, "ramming
# speed" is not intended by any stretch to be "just a tick over maximum
# speed"--it's all the acceleration you can pour into her.
#
# In other words, there's not a little mark on the dial labelled "ramming
# speed." It's a concise order that tells the crew in the shortest way
# possible that we're going to smack into that ship as hard as we can.
#
# > However, some of us have skills in other areas upon which we do feel
# > qualified to speak with a semblence of authority and this is one of
# > them. I have a Bachelors degree in Mechanical Engineering from an
# > accredited institution (no cracks about needing to be institutionalized,
# > please)
# >
# Well, now, just *take* all the fun out of it, why don't ya! :^)
#
# > with a Minor in English. I do understand these things and JMS's answer
# > is just incorrect.
# >
# If the scene were with a bunch of scientists and engineers plotting a
# course for an unmanned probe or something, then I would agree. But this
# is a military order given out in combat by and to non-scientists.
#
# What did you want?
#
# INT. SHIP'S C&C
#
# CAPTAIN
# Okay, bring the ship's engines to within a 90-degree perpendicular
# to
# our target object's current vector, override automatic safety
# systems, calculate the delta-v to intercept the ship, accounting
# for
# its present vector at the time of collision, and apply maximum
# thrust
# to the engines opposite calculated delta-v to achieve the greatest
# amount of kinetic energy transferred to the target at impact.
#
# HELMSMAN
# (who was with him all the way up to "Okay")
# Huh?
#
# CAPTAIN
# Well, you just--
#
# EXT. SPACE
#
# (ship is blown to smithereens by the bad guys)
#
# FADE OUT
#
# > And for those who continue to be critical of our intensity about this
# > issue, get over it.
# >
# And for those who continue to be critical of our continuing to be
# critical of yoru intensity about this issue, also get over it.
#
# Your turn. :^)
#
# --
# Shane D. Killian -- sha...@vnet.net -- http://users.vnet.net/shanek
# "uuunnn k mmmmmmk hhhhhhhh khbbbbbbbbbbbh
# gnhjjjjjjjjjjj rrrrrrrrrddddfc gvb uyyyyyyyhubbbbbbb"
# --Sinclair Mitchell Killian, born 1/29/98
#
OK. And thanks. By the way, I also served 4 years active duty in the
Army. I lead an Engineer Platoon and Commanded an Engineer Company in the
US Army Europe. I have several friends and neighbors who've spend
considerable time in the Navy. I currently work for the US Army Training
and Doctrine Command. Our duty is to develop the doctrine, tactics, and
training for the US Army.
Now, you are incorrect. The order as given was non-sense. It followed no
established doctrine. It was not one the everyone on the bridge would
have understood immediately and carried out. It was not right.
This is not to disparage its dramatic impact. There it was right on.
However, as an accurate reflection of how commands are given in a military
situation, it was just wrong. I have been there and done that....and
that was wrong.
By the way, congratulations on Sinclair Michael. I love the name. I just
sent mine off to college this year. Let me tell you, the time will go by
faster than you can imagine. Don't waste a precious second. The time to
do things and go places will never come back if you don't take them now.
Good luck and congratulations, again.
Philip R. Columbus
philipc...@home.com
http://members.home.com/philipcolumbus/
AOL IM: mr1492
ICQ# 4786099
Powered by OS/2 Warp Ver. 4
Nialla
>I have no intention of making a change in composers for CRUSADE.
The music is fine, on its own merit, but I *really* hope the balance
between sound and dialogue volume works better in the series. I had a
terrible time hearing some dialogue because the music was so loud (and
often "out of synch").
JMO, but I think there wouldn't have been quite so many complaints
about the music if it had been a bit more in the background. As it
was, I had to turn on the closed captioning to understand the
dialogue. The music just seemed to overwhelm the show in certain
spots, instead of enhancing it. No fault of the music necessarily,
just the volume of it.
~ Nialla
Eddie Auerbach
> Now, you are incorrect. The order as given was non-sense. It
> followed no established doctrine. It was not one the everyone on the
> bridge would have understood immediately and carried out. It was not
> right.
>
> This is not to disparage its dramatic impact. There it was right on.
> However, as an accurate reflection of how commands are given in a
> military situation, it was just wrong. I have been there and done
> that....and that was wrong.
The thing is, it is remarkable just how authoritatively you can comment
on established doctrine for military space battle tactics ... in the
year 2267. This is, after all, fiction, and given the fact we've seen
this more than once, it is certainly not unreasonable to suspect this
is established doctrine then. (Think ramming tactics might have come
up for discussion before the Battle of the Line, when many of the ships
sent up didn't even have weapons?)
JMS doesn't get to rewrite physics if he wants things to seem realistic,
but history gives him pretty much free reign in plausibly characterizing
just about anything else 300 years into the future.
--
Eddie Auerbach, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis MN
WWW - http://www.cmrr.umn.edu/~eja/
email - e...@iname.com
sgwm
rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated "Shane D. Killian"
<sha...@vnet.net>wrote:
>sgwm wrote:
>>
>> No its a case of being, and I really hate to use the phrase,
>> scientifically illiterate,
>>
>Well, you ain't giving the order to Stephen Hawking. You're giving it to
>a military officer who pushes a button.
So you're saying that the officer can read minds and know
what you mean by a phrase that was half an order. And before
saying that what the order meant was obvious, I remind you
that the US Senate is spending millions of US tax payers
dollars debating the meaning of the apparently simple phrase
"I did not have sexual relations".
Shane D. Killian
>
> On 31 Jan 1999 11:40:36 -0700, in
> rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated "Shane D. Killian"
> <sha...@vnet.net>wrote:
>
> >sgwm wrote:
> >>
> >> No its a case of being, and I really hate to use the phrase,
> >> scientifically illiterate,
> >>
> >Well, you ain't giving the order to Stephen Hawking. You're giving it
> >to a military officer who pushes a button.
>
> So you're saying that the officer can read minds and know
> what you mean by a phrase that was half an order.
>
single personl who didn't know what was *intended* by "ramming
speed"...just a lot of nitpicking about how the term scientifically
doesn't apply in outer space.
--
Shane D. Killian -- sha...@vnet.net -- http://users.vnet.net/shanek
"uuunnn k mmmmmmk hhhhhhhh khbbbbbbbbbbbh
gnhjjjjjjjjjjj rrrrrrrrrddddfc gvb uyyyyyyyhubbbbbbb"
Shane D. Killian
>
> Now, you are incorrect. The order as given was non-sense. It followed
> no established doctrine.
>
"established doctrine" by then.
> It was not one the everyone on the bridge would have understood
> immediately and carried out. It was not right.
>
I really don't know of anyone who watched the episode, heard the term
"ramming speed," and said, "Huh? I wonder what he meant by that?"
> This is not to disparage its dramatic impact. There it was right on.
> However, as an accurate reflection of how commands are given in a
> military situation, it was just wrong.
>
Having never been in the military, I'll bow to your experience on this,
but I would like to see a reasonable explanation as to *why*.
> By the way, congratulations on Sinclair Michael. I love the name.
>
Thanks! (It's Sinclair Mitchell, actually. Sinclair after my
grandfather, and Mitchell after my wife's father. (No, it wasn't from
B5.))
> I just sent mine off to college this year. Let me tell you, the time
> will go by faster than you can imagine. Don't waste a precious second.
>
Oh, I won't! This first year seems like it's *flown* by!
> Good luck and congratulations, again.
>
Thanks again!
Philip R. Columbus
expressed the opinion that:
# "Philip R. Columbus" wrote:
# >
# > Now, you are incorrect. The order as given was non-sense. It followed
# > no established doctrine.
# >
# Actually, this is 250+ years in the future. Only JMS knows that will be
# "established doctrine" by then.
Agreed. And if that was the explanation given by JMS at the time it was
raised, I'd have no problem with that as an explanation. But he never did
that and continued to try and justify it by other means. As a writer, JMS
is like a baseball umpire in that you can't argue a judgement call.
#
# > It was not one the everyone on the bridge would have understood
# > immediately and carried out. It was not right.
# >
# I really don't know of anyone who watched the episode, heard the term
# "ramming speed," and said, "Huh? I wonder what he meant by that?"
I see your point but I'm not sure you see mine. As I've mentioned before,
judging the correctness of the order can't be made by the reaction of the
actors or the fans. First of all, they're actors and were told the
reactions they were supposed to have. As to the fans, yes, I'm certain
most folks knew what JMS meant. I'd even warrant a real crew would have
an idea of what was required. However, my point is and remains that in a
military organization, the rules of been the same for several thousand
years and will probably remain the same through the period covered by B5.
One of the main ones is that you must train your troops to respond
properly to the commands they receive. There's only one way (short of
telepathy) to do that. You must standardize the commands, teach everyone
what they mean, practice them hard, and execute them in battle. I posted
once before the statement by, I think it was Heroditus (Greek historian)
who watched the Roman army. He said, "Their drills are bloodless battles
and their battles bloody drills." Think about what he said. The army
worked tirelessly on the basics so that each person knew his duties and
what commands meant. Then, in battle, they executed those. The same
rules apply today and will undoubtedly apply in the future.
#
# > This is not to disparage its dramatic impact. There it was right on.
# > However, as an accurate reflection of how commands are given in a
# > military situation, it was just wrong.
# >
# Having never been in the military, I'll bow to your experience on this,
# but I would like to see a reasonable explanation as to *why*.
See above.
#
# > By the way, congratulations on Sinclair Michael. I love the name.
# >
# Thanks! (It's Sinclair Mitchell, actually. Sinclair after my
# grandfather, and Mitchell after my wife's father. (No, it wasn't from
# B5.))
Sorry for misquoting the name.
#
# > I just sent mine off to college this year. Let me tell you, the time
# > will go by faster than you can imagine. Don't waste a precious second.
# >
# Oh, I won't! This first year seems like it's *flown* by!
#
# > Good luck and congratulations, again.
# >
# Thanks again!
#
# --
# Shane D. Killian -- sha...@vnet.net -- http://users.vnet.net/shanek
# "uuunnn k mmmmmmk hhhhhhhh khbbbbbbbbbbbh
# gnhjjjjjjjjjjj rrrrrrrrrddddfc gvb uyyyyyyyhubbbbbbb"
# --Sinclair Mitchell Killian, born 1/29/98
#
Good luck. By the way, my wife and I are off to Nags Head, NC, for a
weeks R&R so I won't be around for a while and then I'm off to Fort
Benning for a week. If this thread is still active when I get back, I'll
try to discuss it some more :)
Thanks.
sgwm
>Y'know, in all this time, in all these debates, I have not run into one
>single personl who didn't know what was *intended* by "ramming
>speed"...just a lot of nitpicking about how the term scientifically
>doesn't apply in outer space.
And in my opinion your simply incorrect. I've seen others
point out that, aside from the term speed, that it was only
half an order by not specifying a target.
Its like me telling you to press a key on your keyboard.
Sure you can press a key but you don't know which one as its
never been specified.
In a situation with multiple targets, such as Severed
Dreams, it's critical that a target be specified as orders
cannot be left open to interpretation, especially when
you're giving your life and ship to destroy another by
ramming it.
Shane D. Killian
>
> On 31 Jan 1999 20:32:07 -0700, in
> rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated "Shane D. Killian"
> <sha...@vnet.net>wrote:
>
> >Y'know, in all this time, in all these debates, I have not run into one
> >single personl who didn't know what was *intended* by "ramming
> >speed"...just a lot of nitpicking about how the term scientifically
> >doesn't apply in outer space.
>
> And in my opinion your simply incorrect. I've seen others
> point out that, aside from the term speed, that it was only
> half an order by not specifying a target.
>
could pssibly be applied to.
> Its like me telling you to press a key on your keyboard.
> Sure you can press a key but you don't know which one as its
> never been specified.
>
> In a situation with multiple targets, such as Severed
> Dreams,
>
--
Shane D. Killian -- sha...@vnet.net -- http://users.vnet.net/shanek
"uuunnn k mmmmmmk hhhhhhhh khbbbbbbbbbbbh
gnhjjjjjjjjjjj rrrrrrrrrddddfc gvb uyyyyyyyhubbbbbbb"
Pelzo63
>Its like me telling you to press a key on your keyboard.
>Sure you can press a key but you don't know which one as its
>never been specified.
unless there was a 5-minute long discussion about whether we should pick the
big flashing key or the little key next to it. after which, i explicitly state
that i overheard which key we're pressing.
--Chris AOL/AIM--Pelzo63
http://members.aol.com/pelzo63/welcome.html
"Only Macintosh was designed to function perfectly. you like your Macintosh
better than me, don't you, dave?" --Hal 9000, apologizing for the Y2K bug
Jay Denebeim
Philip R. Columbus <philipc...@home.com> wrote:
>I'd even warrant a real crew would have an idea of what was required.
I'd like to point out here that the crew are running the ship in the
middle of a battle here. Do you really think they'd have the time to
spare listening while the captain is dilly dallying around with his
cronies? I kinda doubt it, they have other things to be paying
attention to, and in fact the captain would be justified in shooting
the crewmembers listening to him rather than doing their job.
Jay
--
* Jay Denebeim Moderator rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated *
* newsgroup submission address: b5...@deepthot.aurora.co.us *
* moderator contact address: b5mod-...@deepthot.aurora.co.us *
* personal contact address: dene...@deepthot.aurora.co.us *
Philip R. Columbus
opinion that:
# "Philip R. Columbus" wrote:
#
# > Now, you are incorrect. The order as given was non-sense. It
# > followed no established doctrine. It was not one the everyone on the
# > bridge would have understood immediately and carried out. It was not
# > right.
# >
# > This is not to disparage its dramatic impact. There it was right on.
# > However, as an accurate reflection of how commands are given in a
# > military situation, it was just wrong. I have been there and done
# > that....and that was wrong.
#
# The thing is, it is remarkable just how authoritatively you can comment
# on established doctrine for military space battle tactics ... in the
# year 2267. This is, after all, fiction, and given the fact we've seen
# this more than once, it is certainly not unreasonable to suspect this
# is established doctrine then. (Think ramming tactics might have come
# up for discussion before the Battle of the Line, when many of the ships
# sent up didn't even have weapons?)
#
# JMS doesn't get to rewrite physics if he wants things to seem realistic,
# but history gives him pretty much free reign in plausibly characterizing
# just about anything else 300 years into the future.
#
# --
# Eddie Auerbach, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis MN
# WWW - http://www.cmrr.umn.edu/~eja/
# email - e...@iname.com
#
Eddie,
Thanks for the input. I agree with you that if JMS's answer to the
original query about "ramming speed" had been that it was a carry over
from the old days and was part of the doctrine and training of EA crews, I
would have no problem with that part of it. However, his explanations
were tortured and constantly changing as folks on the group noted some
inconsistencies and errors in this scientific and military command logic.
My concern is that a simple "mea culpa" is all that's in order. When I've
made and error on the group and someone has pointed out the mistake, I'm
willing to stand up and say I was wrong. That's all we're asking. As
I've said previously, JMS is a wonderful writer and executive producer.
I'm not sure about his science or military background. So when some on
the group with some experience in those areas mentions that something he
wrote wasn't quite right, a little reflection might be in order. I think
that's the crux of the constant discussion of this, admittedly, minor
issue.
Besides, isn't it fun!!!
Michael J. Hennebry
sgwm <sg...@maitreya.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>On 27 Jan 1999 23:13:49 -0700, in
>rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated car...@q7.com (Chris
>Carter)wrote:
>
>>In article <78opmr$if9$1...@marvin.deepthot.ml.org>,
>> dene...@deepthot.ml.org (Jay Denebeim) wrote:
>>:
>>: In article <36bb5471...@post.demon.co.uk>,
>>: sgwm <sg...@maitreya.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>: >On 26 Jan 1999 22:43:58 -0700, in
>>: >rec.arts.sf.tv.babylon5.moderated sar...@ix.netcom.com
>>: >(Stanley Friesen)wrote:
>>: >
>>: >>The peace of God be with you.
>>: >
>>: >Thanks but no thanks. You have no idea how uneasily that
>>: >sits with me. :o)
>>:
>>: Me too. It irritates me every time I have to approve one of his
>>: posts.
>>
>>Just pretend he's actually saying, "May the Force be with you," and
>>everything will be groovy.
>
>Nah, the one I'm looking for is "May you be lucky and win
>the lottery". Now that would be a blessing.
May you live in interesting times. -- Drasnian blessing
--
Mike henn...@plains.NoDak.edu
"NO KILL I" -- Evelyn Horta
Jay Denebeim
Philip R. Columbus <philipc...@home.com> wrote:
>My concern is that a simple "mea culpa" is all that's in order. When I've
>made and error on the group and someone has pointed out the mistake, I'm
>willing to stand up and say I was wrong. That's all we're asking.
jms doesn't see it as a mistake. If he did he would admit to being
wrong he's very good about that.
Personally, I hope it doesn't come up again. He's already used
ramming three times, it's getting old from a dramatic standpoint. If
he does, I hope we don't hear "ramming speed" again.
Andrew Wendel
Michael J. Hennebry wrote in message <794sec$4...@plains.NoDak.edu>...
>May you live in interesting times. -- Drasnian blessing
Funny, that is also an old Chinese curse.
Andy
------
Andrew Wendel
Engineering God
mailto:h...@ksu.edu
http://www-personal.ksu.edu/~h38
-------------------------------------------
There are two major products to come out of Berkeley: LSD and
UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence.
Hayley Rickey
"Michael J. Hennebry" wrote:
>
>
> May you live in interesting times. -- Drasnian blessing
>
That's an *interesting* "blessing" ;-) !!
Michael J. Hennebry
>
>Michael J. Hennebry wrote in message <794sec$4...@plains.NoDak.edu>...
>
>
>
Yup. Also a Drasnian blessing.
That is why it amused me. I thought I'd share.
>There are two major products to come out of Berkeley: LSD and
>UNIX. We don't believe this to be a coincidence.
Yum. Yet another one for my .sig files.