The WBC Argument - The Archives Sing
HyperReal-Anon
their main arguments being that massaging the prostate raises the WBC level
in EPS and that this is a sure sign of infection. Let's see what a real
urologist, and a smart one too, has to say on the subject:
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An exchange between Dr Shokses and Dr ANF on WBCs:
http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=214678365
which includes:
> THEREFORE A NEGATIVE IDENTIFICATION DOES
> NOT RULE OUT ANY ORGANISM. How ever pus
> cells in a Gram's stain indicates an
> infection, symptomatic or not, as well as
> in the urine. [Dr ANF]
As you seem very eager to dismiss the views of most other doctors as flawed
with misconceptions, perhaps you should examine your own. The presence of
WBC in any organ or fluid does not indicate an infection, symptomatic or
otherwise, they indicate an inflammatory response. As it happens, many of
these turn out to be a response to infectious injury but there are numerous
common examples where this is not the case. Nor is all chronic prostatitis
an STD, as many virgin patients will attest.
To stick with urine, numerous WBC in the absence of UTI are present in stone
disease, some forms of bladder cancer, chemical cystitis (eg chemotherapy or
radiation), trauma and interstitial cystitis. In solid organs, inflammatory
infiltrates in the absence of infection is seen in ischemic nephropathy,
acute and chronic allograft rejection, and
autoimmune diseases (IBD, IDDM, RA, glomerulonephritis) to name just a few.
Naturally, the converse can also be true, with an active infection that is
protected from the immune system by physical (biofilm) or physiologic (TB
and granulomas) processes.
There is no reason to suppose that chronic prostatitis is different. Many
cases will initially show up as culture negative because of protection
within a biofilm, some commensal organisms will grow out in the absence of
true infection and some cases will be caused by a persistent unregulated
ongoing inflammatory response without the presence of bacteria. The latter
situation explains the large number of pts who have returned from Manilla
pronounced "cured" but whose symptoms persist unabated despite ongoing
antimicrobial and prostatic massage treatments.Daniel Shoskes MD UCLA
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More of Dr Shoskes on WBCs:
http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=205369723
> "30% of normal asymptomatic [men who think
> there is nothing wrong with them] males of
> military age have purulent [pus filled]
> prostatic secretions - the Principles of
> Surgery, by Schwartz, 1979."
Of course. That's why 1-5 WBC per high power field is a normal finding, as
are a few WBC in the urine of anyone of any age.WBC are normally found in
most fluids of the body and do not necessarily mean infection or
inflammation
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A discussion of WBCs and Massage:
http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=310338035
which includes:
"Some patients with elevated WBC in the EPS after the 4th or 5th massage
really do have an increase because of the local trauma. D Shoskes"
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Dr Shoskes on Manila and Dr ANF:
http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=215134823
"Based on my experiences so far, there is very little that the Manila
protocol has to offer CP patients. Needless to say, there is NO WAY I would
consider going there."
Daniel Shoskes MD
UCLA
-----------------------
More of his views about ANF:
http://x2.dejanews.com/getdoc.xp?AN=215199522
which includes:
"Having spoken with several patients who have returned from Manila and are
just as bad as ever, I am also concerned at the apparent "if all you have is
a hammer then everything looks like a nail" approach. "
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You'll find ALL the answers you need in the archives, folks, it's all in the
archives.
“ ”
| |
VVVVV
^^^^^
John Garst
<nob...@sind.hyperreal.art.pl> wrote:
...
> "Some patients with elevated WBC in the EPS after the 4th or 5th massage
> really do have an increase because of the local trauma. D Shoskes"
....
I think that I have heard of some old studies that contradict the idea
that trauma is a source of elevated WBCs on successive, vigorous, prostate
massage.
John Garst ga...@sunchem.chem.uga.edu