Spaces after the period
Wayne Alligood
and one year for 'speed effiency'. In those years, I was taught that two
spaces appeared after a period. With this knowledge, I have typed that
way throughout my adult life; however, I have noticed of late, that many
in the computer world use only 'one' space after the period. Is this a
normal habit in the world of computing? Is it 'one' or 'two' spaces
after the period? Can someone tell me that really knows? No opinions
mind you, just the facts.
So, why did I ask such a question in this newsgroup? Because I have
noticed that when I use two spaces after the period, using
Mozilla/Netscape mail/news client, that I often get mis-alignment on the
left hand side of my writing. If I use a single space after the period,
that never occurs. If I use Outlook Express and use two spaces after a
period, and that period ends at the end of the right side, that OE will
re-align the left hand side for me. I hope that this makes some sense
to someone out there.
Can someone clue me in on this behavior using Mozilla mail?
Thanks
--
Wayne Alligood/Amelia Island, Florida
Compaq Computer running Windows XP/ Email: wa...@net-magic.net
"Words rightly spoken are like apples of gold in pictures of silver."
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> I took typing for three years while in school. Two years for 'mechanics'
> and one year for 'speed effiency'. In those years, I was taught that two
> spaces appeared after a period. With this knowledge, I have typed that
> way throughout my adult life; however, I have noticed of late, that many
> in the computer world use only 'one' space after the period. Is this a
> normal habit in the world of computing? Is it 'one' or 'two' spaces
> after the period? Can someone tell me that really knows? No opinions
> mind you, just the facts.
>
> So, why did I ask such a question in this newsgroup? Because I have
> noticed that when I use two spaces after the period, using
> Mozilla/Netscape mail/news client, that I often get mis-alignment on the
> left hand side of my writing. If I use a single space after the period,
> that never occurs. If I use Outlook Express and use two spaces after a
> period, and that period ends at the end of the right side, that OE will
> re-align the left hand side for me. I hope that this makes some sense
> to someone out there.
>
> Can someone clue me in on this behavior using Mozilla mail?
>
> Thanks
>
The only reason that two spaces were used after a period during the
typewriter age was because original typewriters had monospaced fonts.
The extra space was needed for the eye to pick up on the beginning of a
new sentence. That need is negated w/proportional space type, hence the
single space after a period is the typographic standard.
--
Jay Garcia - Netscape Champion
Novell MCNE-5/CNI-Networking Technologies-OSI
UFAQ - http://www.UFAQ.org
** Post To Group ONLY, do NOT email **
Parish
Hmm, interesting comment Jay. I'm correct in thinking that you are
American, yes? I ask because I always understood the "2 spaces after a
period" to be an American thing. Here in the UK I've never used 2 spaces
after a full-stop (period) and neither has anyone else that I know of.
vi(1) will use 2 spaces if you Join 2 lines where the first ends in a
period, as will Emacs (although Emacs has an option to make it use a
single space).
I suspect that the problem the OP is seeing is to do with one or more of
the bugs related to whitespace in Mail Composition. I can't find the
exact bug at the moment but if a printing character is the 72nd (or
whatever you have wrap set to) and you type a space the caret doesn't
move, but when you type another printing character (after the space) the
char appears on the next line. However, if you type 2 spaces then a
printing char, the next line begins with a space.
--
The day Microsoft stop making products that suck will be the day they
start making vacuum cleaners.
Anti-spam e-mail address, sorry for the inconvenience
Esben Mose Hansen
> I took typing for three years while in school. Two years for 'mechanics'
> and one year for 'speed effiency'. In those years, I was taught that two
> spaces appeared after a period. With this knowledge, I have typed that
> way throughout my adult life; however, I have noticed of late, that many
> in the computer world use only 'one' space after the period. Is this a
> normal habit in the world of computing? Is it 'one' or 'two' spaces
> after the period? Can someone tell me that really knows? No opinions
> mind you, just the facts.
According to L. Lamports LateX manual, extra space is added after space
by some publishing traditions. LaTeX offers \frenchspacing and
\nonfrenchspacing to turn off and on (respectively) this behaviour. (Of
course, it's not quite that simple... extra space should /not/ be added
after abbreviations, which makes a bit of micromangement of this aspect
neccessary, even in LaTeX.)
--
regards, Esben
home.worldonline.dk/~mesben (danish site)
Brian Heinrich
netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
Actually, it's an old typographical convention (double space after both a
full stop and a colon). I've never bothered to research it, but like most
things typographical it probably varies considerably depending on time and
place (like, say, conventions regarding en- and em-dashes).
I'm considerably younger than Jay, and live in country to the immediate
north of his (OK, OK, there's only one country to the north of the U. S.),
but was also brought up with that convention. Never the less, there are a
lot of people both older and younger than I who will use single spaces after
both a full stop and a colon.
Basically, it seems that there /is/ no set convention for it. I've always
preferred a double space after both colon and full stop, but that's a
personal thing; it seems to improve readability.
> vi(1) will use 2 spaces if you Join 2 lines where the first ends in a
> period, as will Emacs (although Emacs has an option to make it use a
> single space).
>
> I suspect that the problem the OP is seeing is to do with one or more of
> the bugs related to whitespace in Mail Composition. I can't find the
> exact bug at the moment but if a printing character is the 72nd (or
> whatever you have wrap set to) and you type a space the caret doesn't
> move, but when you type another printing character (after the space) the
> char appears on the next line. However, if you type 2 spaces then a
> printing char, the next line begins with a space.
I don't seem to encounter the problem with plain text; just with HTML -- and
just when a double space will wrap to a new line. I do recall this having
come up several months ago, and someone commenting that it was a bug, but I
don't recall a reference to a bug being given. If it's something that only
occurs with HTML mail, it's hardly surprising: the second space is a non-
breaking space. Still, it's one quirk about Moz that can annoy me at times.
/b.
--
Mozilla end-user questions should be directed to:
snews://secnews.netscape.com:563/netscape.mozilla.user.general
snews://secnews.netscape.com:563/netscape.mozilla.user.win32
snews://secnews.netscape.com:563/netscape.mozilla.user.mac
snews://secnews.netscape.com:563/netscape.mozilla.user.unix
Note that you need to have SSL enabled and the port set to 563.
Parish
> On 14 Aug 2002, it is alleged that Parish sauntered in to
> netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
>
>> the bugs related to whitespace in Mail Composition. I can't find the
>> exact bug at the moment but if a printing character is the 72nd (or
>> whatever you have wrap set to) and you type a space the caret doesn't
>> move, but when you type another printing character (after the space) the
>> char appears on the next line. However, if you type 2 spaces then a
>> printing char, the next line begins with a space.
>
> I don't seem to encounter the problem with plain text; just with HTML -- and
> just when a double space will wrap to a new line. I do recall this having
> come up several months ago, and someone commenting that it was a bug, but I
> don't recall a reference to a bug being given. If it's something that only
> occurs with HTML mail, it's hardly surprising: the second space is a non-
> breaking space. Still, it's one quirk about Moz that can annoy me at times.
>
Hmmm, OK, how does the following look in the NG?
012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901
23456
012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901
23456
I typed the first line (72 chars) followed by 2 spaces then the 23456.
The second was the same but with only one space. In both cases the short
line was flush with the left margin in the Mail Composer, which didn't
used to be the case; the first instance (with 2 spaces) would have shown
the 23456 indented one space.
I tried this in a mail to myself and in the received mail the first
instance had the 23456 indented 2 spaces (i.e. the digits aligned with
the same ones in the first line). The second had the 23456 flush with
the left margin. In both cases, selecting the text showed that both long
lines had a trailing space.
> /b.
Rob Stow
> On 14 Aug 2002, it is alleged that Parish sauntered in to
> netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
>
>> Jay Garcia wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/08/02 05:35, Wayne Alligood Replied As Follows:
>>>
>>> --- Original Message ---
>>>
>>>> I took typing for three years while in school. Two years for
>>>> 'mechanics' and one year for 'speed effiency'. In those years, I was
>>>> taught that two spaces appeared after a period. With this knowledge,
>>>> I have typed that way throughout my adult life; however, I have
>>>> noticed of late, that many in the computer world use only 'one'
>>>> space after the period. Is this a normal habit in the world of
>>>> computing? Is it 'one' or 'two' spaces after the period? Can someone
>>>> tell me that really knows? No opinions mind you, just the facts.
>>>>
Up here in the land north of Yankee-land we were taught
that there should be one space after a period, except when
a period was used to indicate the end of a sentence, in which
case two spaces should be used.
The reason for this has nothing to do with that nonsense
about monospaced fonts that someone else suggested: we
were using the double-space rule even with handwriting.
We were taught this rule right from kindergarten and hence had
about 10 years of practice with it before *some* of us
took typing classes in high school - computers in schools were
still about a decade away at the time I graduated in 1983.
When I look at things written by my nephews (ages 12 and 14)
it is apparent that this rule is still being taught in
Canadian schools.
--
MSWord 2000 'offensive to lesbians,' says rock star
http://www.theregus.com/content/28/25704.html
rob.stow is my name
sk.sympatico.ca provides me with this e-mail account
If you can't figure it out from there ask Mommy for help.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Mail from the the following domains are assumed to be spam
and are deleted by my filters:
hotmail.com, ziplip.com, excite.com, bellsouth.net, yahoo.com
Rob Stow
> Brian Heinrich wrote:
>
>> On 14 Aug 2002, it is alleged that Parish sauntered in to
>> netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
>>
>>> I suspect that the problem the OP is seeing is to do with one or more
>>> of the bugs related to whitespace in Mail Composition. I can't find
>>> the exact bug at the moment but if a printing character is the 72nd
>>> (or whatever you have wrap set to) and you type a space the caret
>>> doesn't move, but when you type another printing character (after the
>>> space) the char appears on the next line. However, if you type 2
>>> spaces then a printing char, the next line begins with a space.
>>
>>
>> I don't seem to encounter the problem with plain text; just with HTML
>> -- and just when a double space will wrap to a new line. I do recall
>> this having come up several months ago, and someone commenting that it
>> was a bug, but I don't recall a reference to a bug being given. If
>> it's something that only occurs with HTML mail, it's hardly
>> surprising: the second space is a non-
>> breaking space. Still, it's one quirk about Moz that can annoy me at
>> times.
>>
>
> Hmmm, OK, how does the following look in the NG?
>
> 012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901 23456
>
> 012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901 23456
>
It is easy to see that the first line has one more space before the
"23456" than does the second line. When selecting either line in
the newsreader, a trailing space was apparent - but when selecting
them now in the editor no trailing space is shown.
Rob
Ron Hunter
IT is certainly the way things were taught when I took typing around 1958, as
well.
--
Ron Hunter rphu...@charter.net
Ron Hunter
>
> On 17 Aug 2002, I vada'd that Ron Hunter had trolled into
> netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and left a bona messagette; to which I
> have responded as follows:
>
> > IT is certainly the way things were taught when I took typing around
> > 1958, as well.
>
> differently.
>
> :o)
>
> Bruno Walter
>
> --
> "What some people have against Open Source Software is what Fundamentalist
> Christians or Moslems have against Knowledge."
That wouldn't seem unlikely.
--
Ron Hunter rphu...@charter.net
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
I graduated in 1959 and we used Underwood typewriters with monospaced
lettering. We were taught to use a double space after a period ending a
sentence so that the next letter beginning a sentence had the proper,
legible spacing. The double space after period was the standard long
long before that. You should do a little research before declaring an
old standard "nonsense". I did my homework on this one!!
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> Up here in the land north of Yankee-land we were taught
> that there should be one space after a period, except when
> a period was used to indicate the end of a sentence, in which
> case two spaces should be used.
>
> The reason for this has nothing to do with that nonsense
> about monospaced fonts that someone else suggested: we
> were using the double-space rule even with handwriting.
>
> We were taught this rule right from kindergarten and hence had
> about 10 years of practice with it before *some* of us
> took typing classes in high school - computers in schools were
> still about a decade away at the time I graduated in 1983.
>
> When I look at things written by my nephews (ages 12 and 14)
> it is apparent that this rule is still being taught in
> Canadian schools.
>
More nonsense ???
I consider Adobe to be an authority on the subject of fonts, etc.
Here, read this, especially the "Why space-space is a no-no".
http://www.adobe.com/print/tips/felici20001030/main.html
Patrick Gallagher
> On 16/08/02 10:16, Rob Stow Replied As Follows:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>
>>Up here in the land north of Yankee-land we were taught
>>that there should be one space after a period, except when
>>a period was used to indicate the end of a sentence, in which
>>case two spaces should be used.
>>
>>The reason for this has nothing to do with that nonsense
>>about monospaced fonts that someone else suggested: we
>>were using the double-space rule even with handwriting.
>>
>>We were taught this rule right from kindergarten and hence had
>>about 10 years of practice with it before *some* of us
>>took typing classes in high school - computers in schools were
>>still about a decade away at the time I graduated in 1983.
>>
>>When I look at things written by my nephews (ages 12 and 14)
>>it is apparent that this rule is still being taught in
>>Canadian schools.
>>
>
>
> More nonsense ???
>
> I consider Adobe to be an authority on the subject of fonts, etc.
>
> Here, read this, especially the "Why space-space is a no-no".
>
> http://www.adobe.com/print/tips/felici20001030/main.html
According to those rules, IF you're using a monospace font (such as
Courier) two spaces is appropriate... if you're using a proportional
font, one space is better. In the end, it's best to stick with what
you're comfortable with, and what looks best to you :)
--
Patrick
black...@hotmail.com
Brian Heinrich
netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
> On 16/08/02 10:16, Rob Stow Replied As Follows:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>> Up here in the land north of Yankee-land we were taught
>> that there should be one space after a period, except when
>> a period was used to indicate the end of a sentence, in which
>> case two spaces should be used.
>>
>> The reason for this has nothing to do with that nonsense
>> about monospaced fonts that someone else suggested: we
>> were using the double-space rule even with handwriting.
>>
>> We were taught this rule right from kindergarten and hence had
>> about 10 years of practice with it before *some* of us
>> took typing classes in high school - computers in schools were
>> still about a decade away at the time I graduated in 1983.
>>
>> When I look at things written by my nephews (ages 12 and 14)
>> it is apparent that this rule is still being taught in
>> Canadian schools.
>>
>
> More nonsense ???
>
> I consider Adobe to be an authority on the subject of fonts, etc.
>
> Here, read this, especially the "Why space-space is a no-no".
>
> http://www.adobe.com/print/tips/felici20001030/main.html
Interestingly, I just refuted that article by pulling a book off a shelf,
published in the U. K. in 1863, in which 'double-spacing' follows a full
stop. (I didn't check closely enough to see what the convention was in re.
a colon; that seems to have been somewhat variable.) The book -- an eight-
volume history of England originally published in serial form and then bound
in four fairly hefty tomes -- was, I believe, published prior to the
invention of the typewriter.
Mr Felici's argument is interesting and certainly reflects current practice.
It's just that he, um, well, happens to be /wrong/.
Christopher Jahn
Nope. The first typewriter was patented in 1714 in England by
Henry Mill - although no known models of it exist. The first
american typewriter was patented in 1829, but was cumbersome and
unreliable, and was more novelty than office tool.
You're thinking of the first practical typewriter, the Remington
Model 1, patented in 1867.
The inventer, Christopher Latham Sholes, patented the QWERTY
keyboard the following year.
But the Remington Model 2, introduced in 1873, was the first
truly viabl typewriter.
> Mr Felici's argument is interesting and certainly reflects
> current practice. It's just that he, um, well, happens to
> be /wrong/.
Actually, if you read his article more carefully, you'll see
that he is not wrong so much as brief. Every word he wrote is
true and accurate, it just doesn't go farther back than a
hundred years.
--
Netscape FAQs: http://www.ufaq.org
Netscape 6/7 Tips: http://www.hmetzger.de/net6e.html
Netscape 6 FAQ: http://home.adelphia.net/~sremick/ns6faq.html
Netscape 7 Help/Tips: http://techaholic.net/ns7.html
Web page validation: http://validator.w3.org
About Mozilla: http://www.mozilla.org
Christopher Jahn
Nope. The first typewriter was patented in 1714 in England by
Henry Mill - although no known models of it exist. The first
american typewriter was patented in 1829, but was cumbersome and
unreliable, and was more novelty than office tool.
You're thinking of the first practical typewriter, the Remington
Model 1, patented in 1867.
The inventer, Christopher Latham Sholes, patented the QWERTY
keyboard the following year.
But the Remington Model 2, introduced in 1873, was the first
truly viabl typewriter.
> Mr Felici's argument is interesting and certainly reflects
> current practice. It's just that he, um, well, happens to
> be /wrong/.
Actually, if you read his article more carefully, you'll see
Brian Heinrich
netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
> And it came to pass that Brian Heinrich wrote:
>
>> On 16 Aug 2002, it is alleged that Jay Garcia sauntered in
>> to netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
>>> I consider Adobe to be an authority on the subject of
>>> fonts, etc.
>>>
>>> Here, read this, especially the "Why space-space is a
>>> no-no".
>>>
>>> http://www.adobe.com/print/tips/felici20001030/main.html
>>
>> Interestingly, I just refuted that article by pulling a
>> book off a shelf, published in the U. K. in 1863, in which
>> 'double-spacing' follows a full stop. (I didn't check
>> closely enough to see what the convention was in re. a
>> colon; that seems to have been somewhat variable.) The
>> book -- an eight- volume history of England originally
>> published in serial form and then bound in four fairly
>> hefty tomes -- was, I believe, published prior to the
>> invention of the typewriter.
>>
>
> Nope. The first typewriter was patented in 1714 in England by
> Henry Mill - although no known models of it exist. The first
> american typewriter was patented in 1829, but was cumbersome and
> unreliable, and was more novelty than office tool.
>
> You're thinking of the first practical typewriter, the Remington
> Model 1, patented in 1867.
>
> The inventer, Christopher Latham Sholes, patented the QWERTY
> keyboard the following year.
>
> But the Remington Model 2, introduced in 1873, was the first
> truly viabl typewriter.
Ah. Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking kind of post-Civil-War-
ish. And, yes, I was thinking in terms of practicality or viability.
>> Mr Felici's argument is interesting and certainly reflects
>> current practice. It's just that he, um, well, happens to
>> be /wrong/.
>
> Actually, if you read his article more carefully, you'll see
> that he is not wrong so much as brief. Every word he wrote is
> true and accurate, it just doesn't go farther back than a
> hundred years.
Fair 'nuff, I guess. However, since he bases his argument on typewriters
/v/ computer typography (apparently), and since the convention antedates the
common use of the typewriter and fixed-pitch fonts, I would still say that,
of necessity, he is wrong. But it's not that big a deal. . . .
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
No, Mr Felici is right on the mark according to present day conventions.
You need to do more MODERN day research as I have.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> Fair 'nuff, I guess. However, since he bases his argument on typewriters
> /v/ computer typography (apparently), and since the convention antedates the
> common use of the typewriter and fixed-pitch fonts, I would still say that,
> of necessity, he is wrong. But it's not that big a deal. . . .
>
> /b.
>
Type up an English term paper and double space after a period ending a
sentence ... YOU FAIL !!! Don't argue with my daughter the English major
!! :-)
So long as it's "readable" I could care less.
Ron Hunter
To me, a proportional spaced font looks like one forgot to space enough
between sentences if only one space is left. It seems to me that two spaces
really isn't necessary in monospaced fonts, but IS in proportional spacing,
since the period is one of those very narrow characters, thus making a rather
small space after it look inadequate. In any case, after over 50 years using
a typewriter, I would probably be unable to change.
--
Ron Hunter rphu...@charter.net
Ron Hunter
Yeah, Jay, but they teach people to spell 'tomatoe' as 'tomato'. Leaving off
that 'e' saves ink in newspapers and publishing, but it changes the way the
word would be pronounced, and is 'wrong'. I too was an English major, and
practices often change, albeit slowly, as some of us just aren't going to go
along with such uncivilized practices as putting ending punctuation inside a
quotation mark at the end of a quotation that ends a sentence. What goes in
the quotation marks is THE QUOTATION, NOT the punctuation for the sentence
containing it. Anyone can see what confusion the current practice might
cause.
--
Ron Hunter rphu...@charter.net
Jerry Baker
The Brits got it right on that one, I have to agree. There are many
times where the punctuation being inside the quotes just doesn't look
right. I don't know who thought up that rule, and why the Americans
deviated from the mother tongue's conventions on that.
--
Jerry Baker
Patrick Gallagher
Last I checked, my dictionary says 'tomato', not 'tomatoe'. The e is
appropriate only in the plural version 'tomatoes'. That was one of the
things that got former VP of the US (Quayle) ridiculed... telling
students they forgot the letter e on tomato and potato, when in fact
there isn't one (anymore?)
--
Patrick
black...@hotmail.com
Brian Heinrich
netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
No, his argument is fundamentally flawed, in as much as it is based on the
assumption that the double space after a full stop is a convention limited
to typewriters and fixed-pitch fonts, whereas it is not.
And I don't think I've ever been dogmatic on the use of a double space after
a full stop (let alone after a colon, which often *is* just a single space,
even in older texts). The convention seems to be changing. That's fine.
But to say that a double space after a full stop is incorrect is itself an
assertion that is both dogmatic and wrong.
Brian Heinrich
netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
> On 17/08/02 01:19, Brian Heinrich Replied As Follows:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>> Fair 'nuff, I guess. However, since he bases his argument on
>> typewriters /v/ computer typography (apparently), and since the
>> convention antedates the common use of the typewriter and fixed-pitch
>> fonts, I would still say that, of necessity, he is wrong. But it's not
>> that big a deal. . . .
>>
>> /b.
>>
>
> Type up an English term paper and double space after a period ending a
> sentence ... YOU FAIL !!! Don't argue with my daughter the English major
> !! :-)
>
> So long as it's "readable" I could care less.
Let's see . . . I did *all* my under-grad papers that way, *all* my grad-
school papers that way, and *all* the work in what should've been my thesis
that way, and *never* received a comment -- and this despite the fact that
in my grad work I regularly violated MLA conventions (wider page margins,
full justification, leading set to (font-size*0.5), &c, &c). I even managed
to get away with it with a prof who failed an *entire* class for not making
proper use of /that/ and /which/ in restrictive and non-restrictive clauses.
Seems to me there's something broken with your post-secondary education
system. :-P
Ron Hunter
Right, 'anymore'. But when Dan Quayle, and I went to school, there WAS!
--
Ron Hunter rphu...@charter.net
Ron Hunter
Looking right really isn't so much of a concern to me, but changing the
meaning of the quotation by including the overall sentence punctuation within
the quote marks is downright misleading, and shows lack of respect for the
original author.
--
Ron Hunter rphu...@charter.net
Brian Heinrich
netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
> Patrick Gallagher wrote:
'But when Dan Qualyle and I went to school, there WAS!'
I agree on the scare quotes around 'anymore', but suspect that's a losing
battle.
Anyway, you'd have to prove your point by more than assertion; Webster's
/3NID/ (which happens to be what I have to hand) gives neither 'tomatoe' or
'potatoe' as variant spellings.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
If you spell tomato as tomatoe then it's mis-spelled and is wrong. There
is no such word as tomatoe although I have seen it spelled that way.
Merriam Webster does not contain an entry for "tomatoe". I have NEVER
heard of anyone teaching to spell tomato "tomatoe" ... absurd
Now, if you ask Dan Quayle to spell it then he'll do "tomatoe" for sure. :-D
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
Ahh, so your professors did it wrong as well .. I see. :-)
And besides, I only made one mistake in grammar in my entire life and
soon as I done it I seen it. :-)
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> No, his argument is fundamentally flawed, in as much as it is based on the
> assumption that the double space after a full stop is a convention limited
> to typewriters and fixed-pitch fonts, whereas it is not.
It's an old convention that is no longer needed in any venue.
> And I don't think I've ever been dogmatic on the use of a double space after
> a full stop (let alone after a colon, which often *is* just a single space,
> even in older texts). The convention seems to be changing. That's fine.
> But to say that a double space after a full stop is incorrect is itself an
> assertion that is both dogmatic and wrong.
>
> /b.
>
Ok, we agree to disagree<period><space>Har har<period>
Brian Heinrich
netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
> On 17/08/02 13:26, Brian Heinrich Replied As Follows:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>> No, his argument is fundamentally flawed, in as much as it is based on
>> the assumption that the double space after a full stop is a convention
>> limited to typewriters and fixed-pitch fonts, whereas it is not.
>
> It's an old convention that is no longer needed in any venue.
To the extent that it can be argued that it improves readability, I would
hesistate to dismiss is quite so readily.
/b.
>> And I don't think I've ever been dogmatic on the use of a double space
>> after a full stop (let alone after a colon, which often *is* just a
>> single space, even in older texts). The convention seems to be
>> changing. That's fine. But to say that a double space after a full
>> stop is incorrect is itself an assertion that is both dogmatic and
>> wrong.
>>
>> /b.
>>
>
> Ok, we agree to disagree<period><space>Har har<period>
--
Mozilla end-user questions should be directed to:
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> On 17 Aug 2002, it is alleged that Jay Garcia sauntered in to
> netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
>
>> On 17/08/02 13:26, Brian Heinrich Replied As Follows:
>>
>> --- Original Message ---
>> It's an old convention that is no longer needed in any venue.
>
> To the extent that it can be argued that it improves readability, I would
> hesistate to dismiss is quite so readily.
>
> /b.
Hmm, let's see, I took typing in 1955'ish or so. The teaching convention
then was single spacing. So, I'd be safe in saying that the dbl-spacing
convention here predates 1955'ish or so .... :-)
Parish
Hehe. Wasn't he the one who also claimed to have been involved in
"inventing" the Internet, and proclaimed his website to be "Open Source"?
--
The day Microsoft stop making products that suck will be the day they
start making vacuum cleaners.
Anti-spam e-mail address, sorry for the inconvenience
Jerry Baker
No, that was Al Gore. His statement was taken out of context also. You
can read about the story at
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,39301,00.html.
--
Jerry Baker
Parish
Thanks for the correction. Mind you, our (British) politicians are just
as bad. A few years ago the then Minister for Education announced to a
group of primary school children during a tour of a school that "7 times
8 is 54".
Ron Hunter
Well, Jay, that IS how it SHOULD be spelled, unless you want to say it
tumaata. In order for the ending 'o' to have a long 'o' sound, there needs to
be a following vowel. The point is that the language changes, and most people
accommodate themselves to the changes, and often we forget how it WAS before.
You have probably seen 'color' spelled 'colour'. IN the US, this is wrong, in
the rest of the English speaking world, it is right.
--
Ron Hunter rphu...@charter.net
Ron Hunter
Nope. Took typing about 1958, and the double space was definitely the
standard at the time. Note that it is logical to leave more space between
sentences than between words.
--
Ron Hunter rphu...@charter.net
Ron Hunter
Ron Hunter
Travis Crump
> Well, Jay, that IS how it SHOULD be spelled, unless you want to say it
> tumaata. In order for the ending 'o' to have a long 'o' sound, there needs to
> be a following vowel. The point is that the language changes, and most people
> accommodate themselves to the changes, and often we forget how it WAS before.
> You have probably seen 'color' spelled 'colour'. IN the US, this is wrong, in
> the rest of the English speaking world, it is right.
>
Funny, apparently whether or not it has a trailing 'e' changes the
pronunciation of every vowel in the word. :) I pronounce tomato as
tõmâtõ...[õ is supposed to be a long 'o']. I hate to break it to you
but English isn't a phonetic language, and doesn't even pretend to be.
Brian Heinrich
netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
> Jay Garcia wrote:
What a politically movitated othographical deviation on the part of one Noah
Webster has to do with your Quayle-like insistence upon an unaccepted
spelling is beyond me.
I would in fact *challenge* you to provide evidence that at any point in
time (since English orthography began to be standardised in the latter part
of the 18th century) '[p|t]omatoe' was considered an acceptable spelling.
Unless you can prove it, you're just blowing smoke. . . .
Jerry Baker
>
> Well, Jay, that IS how it SHOULD be spelled, unless you want to say it
> tumaata. In order for the ending 'o' to have a long 'o' sound, there needs to
> be a following vowel.
I don't know of any case where a trailing "O" is not long. Do you?
I guess by your rule, the following are true:
motto - mot tah
toto - tah tah
tobasco - tuh bass kah
lotto - lah tah
grotto - grah tah
staccato - stah kah tah
--
Jerry Baker
Brian Heinrich
netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
> Ron Hunter wrote:
>> Well, Jay, that IS how it SHOULD be spelled, unless you want to say it
>> tumaata. In order for the ending 'o' to have a long 'o' sound, there
>> needs to be a following vowel. The point is that the language changes,
>> and most people accommodate themselves to the changes, and often we
>> forget how it WAS before. You have probably seen 'color' spelled
>> 'colour'. IN the US, this is wrong, in the rest of the English
>> speaking world, it is right.
>>
>
> Funny, apparently whether or not it has a trailing 'e' changes the
> pronunciation of every vowel in the word. :) I pronounce tomato as
> tőmâtő...[ő is supposed to be a long 'o']. I hate to break it to you
> but English isn't a phonetic language, and doesn't even pretend to be.
Tomáto -- tomâto,
Potáto -- potâto,
Let's call the whole thing off.
(Like someone /wasn't/ going to quote that eventually. . . .)
Brian Heinrich
netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
> Jay Garcia wrote:
>>
>> On 18/08/02 01:13, Brian Heinrich Replied As Follows:
>>
>> --- Original Message ---
>>
>> > On 17 Aug 2002, it is alleged that Jay Garcia sauntered in to
>> > netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
>> >
>> >> On 17/08/02 13:26, Brian Heinrich Replied As Follows:
>> >>
>> >> --- Original Message ---
>>
>> >> It's an old convention that is no longer needed in any venue.
>> >
>> > To the extent that it can be argued that it improves readability, I
>> > would hesistate to dismiss is quite so readily.
>> >
>> > /b.
>>
>> Hmm, let's see, I took typing in 1955'ish or so. The teaching
>> convention then was single spacing. So, I'd be safe in saying that the
>> dbl-spacing convention here predates 1955'ish or so .... :-)
>>
>> --
>> Jay Garcia - Netscape Champion
>> Novell MCNE-5/CNI-Networking Technologies-OSI
>> UFAQ - http://www.UFAQ.org
>> ** Post To Group ONLY, do NOT email **
>
> Nope. Took typing about 1958, and the double space was definitely the
> standard at the time. Note that it is logical to leave more space
> between sentences than between words.
And when I took typing some 20 years later (albeit in Canada), I was taught
to double space after a full stop (and a colon). My mother, when she took
some secretarial English refresher courses in the mid-'80s, was even then --
and it might be pertinent that the courses assumed use of a computer rather
than a typewriter -- taught to double space after a full stop (but /not/
after a colon).
So, can we then accept that there was -- and remains -- considerable
variation in what was/is considered acceptable typographical convention?
/b.
Ron Hunter
It is becoming less so, especially since the 70's when the newspapers began to
worry about the amount of ink in a comma as opposed to a period! Blame
newspapers for most of the changes, good and bad, to the way we write.
--
Ron Hunter rphu...@charter.net
Ron Hunter
And spelling too, given that you insist on spelling 'period' as 'full stop'.
Grin.
--
Ron Hunter rphu...@charter.net
Brian Heinrich
<snip class="fixingTheBrokenBehaviourOfTheUndeadCślacanth" />
> And spelling too, given that you insist on spelling 'period' as 'full
> stop'. Grin.
The full stop is the thing that comes at the end of the period.
No big deal; I use 'em both -- just seems 'full stop' is coming to mind more
often right now.
Christopher Jahn
But not for non-english words adopted into the language, and
Tomato is such a word.
--
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Web page validation: http://validator.w3.org
About Mozilla: http://www.mozilla.org
Ron Hunter
Rob Stow
> On 16/08/02 10:16, Rob Stow Replied As Follows:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>
>>Brian Heinrich wrote:
>>
>>>On 14 Aug 2002, it is alleged that Parish sauntered in to
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jay Garcia wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>--- Original Message ---
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I took typing for three years while in school. Two years for
>>>>>>'mechanics' and one year for 'speed effiency'. In those years, I was
>>>>>>taught that two spaces appeared after a period. With this knowledge,
>>>>>>I have typed that way throughout my adult life; however, I have
>>>>>>noticed of late, that many in the computer world use only 'one'
>>>>>>space after the period. Is this a normal habit in the world of
>>>>>>computing? Is it 'one' or 'two' spaces after the period? Can someone
>>>>>>tell me that really knows? No opinions mind you, just the facts.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>Up here in the land north of Yankee-land we were taught
>>that there should be one space after a period, except when
>>a period was used to indicate the end of a sentence, in which
>>case two spaces should be used.
>>
>>The reason for this has nothing to do with that nonsense
>>about monospaced fonts that someone else suggested: we
>>were using the double-space rule even with handwriting.
>>
>>We were taught this rule right from kindergarten and hence had
>>about 10 years of practice with it before *some* of us
>>took typing classes in high school - computers in schools were
>>still about a decade away at the time I graduated in 1983.
>>
>>When I look at things written by my nephews (ages 12 and 14)
>>it is apparent that this rule is still being taught in
>>Canadian schools.
>>
>
>
> I graduated in 1959 and we used Underwood typewriters with monospaced
> lettering. We were taught to use a double space after a period ending a
> sentence so that the next letter beginning a sentence had the proper,
> legible spacing. The double space after period was the standard long
> long before that. You should do a little research before declaring an
> old standard "nonsense". I did my homework on this one!!
>
Read my post again - I didn't "declare an old standard nonsense",
I said that thinking that the rationale for it was based on
typewriters with monospaced fonts was nonsense. Ie., the old
standard was used even when writing by hand back in the days when
very few people used typewriters and almost no one used computers.
Rob
--
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http://www.theregus.com/content/28/25704.html
rob.stow is my name
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Jerry Baker
>
> Read my post again - I didn't "declare an old standard nonsense",
> I said that thinking that the rationale for it was based on
> typewriters with monospaced fonts was nonsense. Ie., the old
> standard was used even when writing by hand back in the days when
> very few people used typewriters and almost no one used computers.
>
> Rob
How exactly do you make sure that your hand positions the first letter
of a new sentence exactly two spaces after the last? I don't have that
kind of motor skill, nor the perceptual acuity that would be required.
Do others?
--
Jerry Baker
Brian Heinrich
netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
> Rob Stow says:
Ironically, had I not recently come across some material I'd written in
primary school (Rob and I are of about an age; I live a province to the west
of him), I would've been inclined to agree with you; however, additional
spacing between a full stop and the beginning of a new sentence was there,
so it would seem to be a practice with which he and I were brought up.
Ron Hunter
> netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
>
>> Rob Stow says:
>>
>>>
>>> Read my post again - I didn't "declare an old standard nonsense",
>>> I said that thinking that the rationale for it was based on
>>> typewriters with monospaced fonts was nonsense. Ie., the old
>>> standard was used even when writing by hand back in the days when
>>> very few people used typewriters and almost no one used computers.
>>>
>>> Rob
>>
>>
>> How exactly do you make sure that your hand positions the first letter
>> of a new sentence exactly two spaces after the last? I don't have that
>> kind of motor skill, nor the perceptual acuity that would be required.
>> Do others?
>
>
> Ironically, had I not recently come across some material I'd written in
> primary school (Rob and I are of about an age; I live a province to the
> west of him), I would've been inclined to agree with you; however,
> additional spacing between a full stop and the beginning of a new
> sentence was there, so it would seem to be a practice with which he and
> I were brought up.
>
> /b.
>
and sentences with two spaces, and paragraphs with a blank line, or at least a
several space indentation. Easier to read, as well.
--
Ron Hunter rphu...@charter.net
Rob Stow
Obviously you didn't do anything "exactly" - you just guesstimated.
Some teachers were very fussy about how closely you adhered to the
standard, while most were satisfied if you just used enough white
space between sentences to make the separations blatantly larger
than the separations between words within a sentence.
It really wasn't much of an issue - by the time you finished third
grade you had the habit ingrained pretty thoroughly.
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> Read my post again - I didn't "declare an old standard nonsense",
> I said that thinking that the rationale for it was based on
> typewriters with monospaced fonts was nonsense. Ie., the old
> standard was used even when writing by hand back in the days when
> very few people used typewriters and almost no one used computers.
>
> Rob
Regardless, it's a well known and published fact.
Parish
> '[p|t]omatoe' was considered an acceptable spelling.
Brian, WTH is a pomatoe? :^)
Jay Garcia
--- Original Message ---
> Brian Heinrich wrote:
>> '[p|t]omatoe' was considered an acceptable spelling.
>
> Brian, WTH is a pomatoe? :^)
>
A cross between a potato and a tomato. They're only found in Brian's
home town. :-)
Brian Heinrich
netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
> On 19/08/02 20:37, Parish Replied As Follows:
>
> --- Original Message ---
>
>> Brian Heinrich wrote:
>>> '[p|t]omatoe' was considered an acceptable spelling.
>>
>> Brian, WTH is a pomatoe? :^)
Dunno. Any ideas?
I've been so fried the last few days I missed that one entirely. . . .
> A cross between a potato and a tomato. They're only found in Brian's
> home town. :-)
Yeh, yeh, rub it in. More like as not to be found where I was born --
Uranium City, SK -- than here.
Rob Stow
> Yeh, yeh, rub it in. More like as not to be found where I was born --
> Uranium City, SK -- than here.
>
Wow ! Have you thawed out since you moved to wherever the heck
you live now ? I've never been further north than Lac La Ronge -
and it was miserable there even in August - makes Moose Jaw seem
like Paradise.
Rob
Brian Heinrich
netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news and loudly proclaimed:
> Brian Heinrich wrote:
>
>> Yeh, yeh, rub it in. More like as not to be found where I was born --
>> Uranium City, SK -- than here.
>>
>
> Wow ! Have you thawed out since you moved to wherever the heck
> you live now ? I've never been further north than Lac La Ronge -
> and it was miserable there even in August - makes Moose Jaw seem
> like Paradise.
>
> Rob
Yes -- tho' given what this summer's been like in the 'Bridge, there are
times I've got to wonder. . . .
Neil
> Patrick Gallagher wrote:
>
>> Ron Hunter wrote:
>>
>>> I too was an English major, and practices often change, albeit
>>> slowly, as some of us just aren't going to go along with such
>>> uncivilized practices as putting ending punctuation inside a
>>> quotation mark at the end of a quotation that ends a sentence. What
>>> goes in the quotation marks is THE QUOTATION, NOT the punctuation
>>> for the sentence containing it. Anyone can see what confusion the
>>> current practice might cause.
>>
> Hehe. Wasn't he the one who also claimed to have been involved in
> "inventing" the Internet, and proclaimed his website to be "Open Source"?
So, which is right, '"Open Source"?' or '"Open Source?"' :-)
--
Warning: May contain traces of nuts.
Parish
The former, because *I* am asking the question, not quoting a question.
Although if I was quoting a question in a question of my own would both
question marks be correct, e.g.
What do you you think of his question, "Am I fit to be President?"?