Lifespans in Brust's Dragaera books
Ethical Mirth Gas
Guards (which is lots and lots of fun - I've never read such vivid
descriptions of sword fighting before - and the over-the-top narrative
has me giggling all the time). I'm trying to get my head around the
timescale. How long are the cycles compared to the lifespan of a
Dragaeran? Would a typical Dragaeran live to see several cycles?
Part of one cycle?
And are the cycles a formal agreement about powersharing, or more a
sort of prophecy? Does the Phoenix House hand over the reigns of
power to the Dragon House at a certain time, or does it just happen
that the Dragons inevitably seize power from the Phoenix and then the
Lyorn from the Dragons?
SMTIRCAHIAGEHLT
Andrew Plotkin
> I've only read the first three Vlad books and am starting the Phoenix
> Guards (which is lots and lots of fun - I've never read such vivid
> descriptions of sword fighting before - and the over-the-top narrative
> has me giggling all the time). I'm trying to get my head around the
> timescale. How long are the cycles compared to the lifespan of a
> Dragaeran? Would a typical Dragaeran live to see several cycles?
> Part of one cycle?
I know there's a comment about cycle length somewhere in the series --
I think it was that no house has held the throne less than 17^2 years
at a stretch, or more than 17^3?
> And are the cycles a formal agreement about powersharing, or more a
> sort of prophecy? Does the Phoenix House hand over the reigns of
> power to the Dragon House at a certain time, or does it just happen
> that the Dragons inevitably seize power from the Phoenix and then the
> Lyorn from the Dragons?
This is highly unclear. It's more like a prophecy, but how much a
self-fulfilling prophecy?
--Z
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the borogoves..."
*
* Make your vote count. Get your vote counted.
Ian A. York
>timescale. How long are the cycles compared to the lifespan of a
>Dragaeran? Would a typical Dragaeran live to see several cycles?
>Part of one cycle?
I don't think Brust has spelled this out. My impression is that cycles
last on average several lifespans, but not many lifespans; and that
there's a lot of variation in how long a cycle might last. I think during
the various books we catch glimpses of three cycles: The decadent Phoenix
in Phoenix Guards, the Reborn Phoenix in the Vlad books, and the Dragon,
who is Empress while Paarfi is writing the Phoenix Guards. Offhand, I
can't think of anyone (except, of course, for the usual exception to all
the rules) who would have definitively lasted through all three, though
it's quite probable that many did. I mean, we aren't told for certain
that, say, Morollan is still alive in the Dragon reign while Paarfi is
writing, though it doesn't seem unlikely that he would be, though he'd
probably be elderly; and if I remember right he was just born right near
the end of the Decadent Phoenix reign.
>And are the cycles a formal agreement about powersharing, or more a
>sort of prophecy? Does the Phoenix House hand over the reigns of
>power to the Dragon House at a certain time, or does it just happen
>that the Dragons inevitably seize power from the Phoenix and then the
>Lyorn from the Dragons?
Yes.
I think it's variable. In some cases, I imagine the power is tidily
handed over--the Lyorns, for example, might well say 'We're done, your
turn now;' and the Dragons might get bored and pass it along so they can
do the warlord thing; but the Decadent Phoenix, almost by definition,
would have to be overthrown, and I suspect that the Teckla Republic would
pass over in a coup by disgruntled nobles. I suspect, without much
reason, that more cycles would end in violence than would end with neat
paperwork and a bit of interior redecorating.
I do think there's evidence that the cycles are both agreements, *and*
prophesy, or at least something more than mere whim. There's a bit more
in this hidden in the various books.
Ian
--
Ian York (iay...@panix.com) <http://www.panix.com/~iayork/>
"-but as he was a York, I am rather inclined to suppose him a
very respectable Man." -Jane Austen, The History of England
Captain Button
> Guards (which is lots and lots of fun - I've never read such vivid
> descriptions of sword fighting before - and the over-the-top narrative
> has me giggling all the time). I'm trying to get my head around the
> timescale. How long are the cycles compared to the lifespan of a
> Dragaeran? Would a typical Dragaeran live to see several cycles?
> Part of one cycle?
There is an excellent website about Brust and Dragaera,
"Cracks and Shards" at:
http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/
And there are some instructions on how to avoid spoilers
on that first page.
Alexx Stevens has another Brust page with a massive timeline
of Dragaera at:
http://world.std.com/~alexx/brust.html
http://world.std.com/~alexx/timeline.txt
There some stuff at the top of the timeline talking about calendars
and stuff that doesn't seem to contain any obvious spoilers.
There are spoilers in the actual timeline entries, of course.
A few basic facts swiped from the above, with my own additions:
A day is 30 hours, a year is 17^2 or 289 days which means a
year is 8670 hours versus the Earth year of 8760 hours, pretty
close.
1 month = 17 days
1 year = 17 months
1 Turn = 17 years
1 Phase = 17 Turns (289 years)
1 Reign = 17 Turns to 17 Phases (289 to 4913 years, average 775)
1 Cycle = 17 Reigns (4913 to 83521 years, average 13200)
1 Great Cycle = 17 Cycles (Only been one so far, about 224000 years)
(Also called "complete Cycle" [TPG22].)
In Vlad's time the 2nd Great Cycle has either just started or
will start very soon depending on where the line is drawn.
Easterners (Earth-type humans like Vlad) live about the same
lengthof time as on Earth, 50-100 years.
Dragaerans live roughly 50 times as long as Easterners, so just
divide by 50 to tell where they are in lifestyle terms. Most
Dragaerans expect to live several thousand years, but a 5000
year old is very elderly, like a 100 year only Eastener.
1000 is a reasonable age for going out to seek your fortune.
This conversion may not apply for very young Dragaerans,
it isn't clear how fast they mature. We see a 100 year old
Teckla in one book who seems to be in roughly the physical
and social status of a teenager, not a two year old.
So a Dragaeran will probably see several Reigns, but is unlikely
to see a whole Cycle, although it is just barely possible.
An Easterner will probably live through several Turns, but no
larger unit, except for bridging from the very end of one to
the start of another.
> And are the cycles a formal agreement about powersharing, or more a
> sort of prophecy? Does the Phoenix House hand over the reigns of
> power to the Dragon House at a certain time, or does it just happen
> that the Dragons inevitably seize power from the Phoenix and then the
> Lyorn from the Dragons?
I'm on much shakier ground here:
It is mixed. The Emperor's Orb is aware of the Cycle and will
only obey the Emperor.
You can tell when the Reign has changed by the fact that the
Orb stops protecting the old Emperor. Yes, this may mean the
only way to tell is to try and kill the Emperor and if you
succeed, it has turned.
So there is a definite aspect of power struggle involved,
and self-fulfilling prophecy, but there is an objective
reality behind it of the Orb's behavior.
--
"We have to go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe in
tolerance and free speech," - David Brin
Captain Button - but...@io.com
Matt Ador
is always indicated by some tangible sign, like Kathana killing
Pepperfields in TPG. Also, if I'm remembering right, it has to be
between 17^2 and 17^3 years, or anyway something with seventeens.
Check Taltos and 500 yrs. after for details, at least, I think that's
where I got the details from.
-Matt
as for lifespans, avg. dragaeran I think is 3000-3500 yrs.? so
Morrolan could definitely live to see a Dragon reign- anyway, both he
and Norathar were born at the end of the Interregnum or thereabouts,
so it's logical that he'd live to see her reign, unless he got himslef
killed first, which, given Blackwand, seems bloody unlikely.
Konrad Gaertner
>
> Ethical Mirth Gas <stra...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
> > I've only read the first three Vlad books and am starting the Phoenix
> > Guards (which is lots and lots of fun - I've never read such vivid
> > descriptions of sword fighting before - and the over-the-top narrative
> > has me giggling all the time). I'm trying to get my head around the
> > timescale. How long are the cycles compared to the lifespan of a
> > Dragaeran? Would a typical Dragaeran live to see several cycles?
> > Part of one cycle?
>
> I know there's a comment about cycle length somewhere in the series --
> I think it was that no house has held the throne less than 17^2 years
> at a stretch, or more than 17^3?
Those are the legal (maybe even enforced by the Orb) limits on the
minimum and maximum time a House can hold the Orb, according to Vlad
in (I think) _Yendi_.
> > And are the cycles a formal agreement about powersharing, or more a
> > sort of prophecy? Does the Phoenix House hand over the reigns of
> > power to the Dragon House at a certain time, or does it just happen
> > that the Dragons inevitably seize power from the Phoenix and then the
> > Lyorn from the Dragons?
>
> This is highly unclear. It's more like a prophecy, but how much a
> self-fulfilling prophecy?
It seems that the only sure way to test if the cycle has turned is
to attempt to kill the Emperor. However, sometimes an Emperor will
willingly step down (like Tortaalik's predecessor).
Personally, I'd like to see just *one* normal transition.
--KG
David Eppstein
iay...@panix.com (Ian A. York) wrote:
> I do think there's evidence that the cycles are both agreements, *and*
> prophesy, or at least something more than mere whim. There's a bit more
> in this hidden in the various books.
It should also be mentioned that, as well as being some kind of
agreement or prophesy, the cycle has a physical existence as a large
clock-like thing (well, as physical as anything in the Paths of the Dead
can be). It's not just a clock representing the cycle, it *is* the
cycle.
--
David Eppstein UC Irvine Dept. of Information & Computer Science
epps...@ics.uci.edu http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/
David Eppstein
annoyi...@yahoo.com (Matt Ador) wrote:
> The cycle turns when the big wheel in the Paths of the Dead does
A strange way of phrasing it, since it implies that the cycle and the
big wheel are two different things. It's like saying "I breathe when my
body does."
Ray
"Ian A. York" <iay...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:a7vehd$h3l$1...@news.panix.com...
> In article <403a059a.02032...@posting.google.com>,
> Ethical Mirth Gas <stra...@email.unc.edu> wrote:
> >
> >has me giggling all the time). I'm trying to get my head around the
> >timescale. How long are the cycles compared to the lifespan of a
> >Dragaeran? Would a typical Dragaeran live to see several cycles?
> >Part of one cycle?
>
> I don't think Brust has spelled this out. My impression is that cycles
> last on average several lifespans, but not many lifespans; and that
> there's a lot of variation in how long a cycle might last.
It was spelled out in a Vlad book. I think that Andrew is correct -
anywhere from 17^2 to 17^3 (289-4913) years. I also get the impression that
only one empiror reigns for a cycle. When the empiror dies or steps down,
he is replaced by the heir from the next house.
Dragaerians seem to reach "majority" at about 100 years or so. A 1000 year
old person is considered "mature" (sort of like a 50 year old human). We
commonly hear of 2000 year old Dragaerians.
> I think during
> the various books we catch glimpses of three cycles: The decadent Phoenix
> in Phoenix Guards, the Reborn Phoenix in the Vlad books, and the Dragon,
> who is Empress while Paarfi is writing the Phoenix Guards. Offhand, I
> can't think of anyone (except, of course, for the usual exception to all
> the rules) who would have definitively lasted through all three, though
> it's quite probable that many did.
Sethra has lasted through every reign - and the interregnum. She didn't
"live" through them, she "lasted" through them :-)
> I mean, we aren't told for certain
> that, say, Morollan is still alive in the Dragon reign while Paarfi is
> writing, though it doesn't seem unlikely that he would be, though he'd
> probably be elderly; and if I remember right he was just born right near
> the end of the Decadent Phoenix reign.
I don't think he's even elderly.
Ray
Carl Dershem
>
> I think it's variable. In some cases, I imagine the power is tidily
> handed over--the Lyorns, for example, might well say 'We're done, your
> turn now;' and the Dragons might get bored and pass it along so they can
> do the warlord thing; but the Decadent Phoenix, almost by definition,
> would have to be overthrown, and I suspect that the Teckla Republic would
> pass over in a coup by disgruntled nobles.
Look again - the Teckla is followed by the Jhereg. That makes the sort
of transition a bit clearer. :)
cd
--
Death to all Absolutists!
Damien Raphael
>Look again - the Teckla is followed by the Jhereg. That makes the sort
>of transition a bit clearer. :)
No, followed by Jhegaala.
-xx- Damien X-)
Damien Neil
<iay...@panix.com> wrote:
> I mean, we aren't told for certain
> that, say, Morollan is still alive in the Dragon reign while Paarfi is
> writing, though it doesn't seem unlikely that he would be, though he'd
> probably be elderly; and if I remember right he was just born right near
> the end of the Decadent Phoenix reign.
Morollan is a young man (early 20s in our terms, I think) in Vlad's
day, and I strongly suspect that the Dragon reign is going to begin in
Vlad's lifetime.
- Damien
Damien Neil
<rDrovouil...@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:
> > I think during
> > the various books we catch glimpses of three cycles: The decadent Phoenix
> > in Phoenix Guards, the Reborn Phoenix in the Vlad books, and the Dragon,
> > who is Empress while Paarfi is writing the Phoenix Guards. Offhand, I
> > can't think of anyone (except, of course, for the usual exception to all
> > the rules) who would have definitively lasted through all three, though
> > it's quite probable that many did.
>
> Sethra has lasted through every reign - and the interregnum. She didn't
> "live" through them, she "lasted" through them :-)
Captain G'aereth (Khaavren's boss in _The Phoenix Guards_) got his
start as a soldier during the Teckla Republic, rose to prominence
during the Athyra reign, and appears to be going strong when Khaavren
shows up right after a Phoenix took the throne.
From this, I think the Athyra reign must have been a short one.
Is there ever a figure given for how long the Interregnum lasted, and
how long Zerika has held the throne in Vlad's time?
- Damien
Ian A. York
Ray <rDrovouil...@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:
>
>only one empiror reigns for a cycle. When the empiror dies or steps down,
Not possible. Teckla have a republic, for one thing.
>> can't think of anyone (except, of course, for the usual exception to all
>> the rules) who would have definitively lasted through all three, though
>
>Sethra has lasted through every reign - and the interregnum. She didn't
>"live" through them, she "lasted" through them :-)
So, um, who did you think I meant by the usual exceptions to the rules,
and why do you think I wrote "lasted" instead of "lived"?
Ian A. York
<how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>Whatever their life spans are, I don't believe in it. There is too much
>killing for one, for them to live that long - and society doesn't change at
>a rate that works for me for those characters.
Remember who is showing us Draegarean society. If you read a book about
America narrated by Howie "The Rifleman" Brazee, executioner for the
Mafia, what kind of average lifespan would you extrapolate from that?
As for society changes, I don't think you can reasonably compare. Quite
apart from the fact that Draegareans are different species, there are
certainly external influences holding back, and moving forward, parts of
the society; we see the gods interfering at intervals, so we know that.
Ian A. York
<how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>On 29-Mar-2002, iay...@panix.com (Ian A. York) wrote:
>
>> Remember who is showing us Draegarean society. If you read a book about
>> America narrated by Howie "The Rifleman" Brazee, executioner for the
>> Mafia, what kind of average lifespan would you extrapolate from that?
>
>different writers, all discussing duels and death. If you keep living in
>war, luck will eventually go against you.
(Who's the third writer?)
The writing we're seeing isn't a historical, balanced view. It's from
Vlad "Whiskers", who hangs out with Morollan "The Demon-Worshipper" and
Sethra "The Vampire"; or it's by Paarfi "The Hack", deliberately writing
wildly exciting pot-boilers filled with action and excitement to pay for
his real work.
The more representative examples of Draegarean society are shown in Athyra
and in Orca; the sleepy villages, the old woman with a cottage full of A
Visit To The Seaside memorabalia. These people are *not* living in war,
and they're (probably) the vast majority of the Empire. But they're
boring. No one writes about them, or at least nothing anyone reads.
(Paarfi probably works on them in his real job, diligently digging up
receipts for seashell-encrusted snowglobes and writing monographs on The
Modification Of Seashell-Encrusted Snowglobes Through The Fifth And
Seventh Jheegala Emporers And Their Relation To Sea Levels, Part III; but
no one reads those.)
>But we do see some society developments - with great changes in level of
>sorcery. And there are humans around as well - who should change as humans
>do.
Sure. And we see what happens when they try to change. Khaavren ends up
hanging about with his sword out.
Agreed that there have been vast changes in their society lately; but look
what it took to kick those off. The Empire *died*, the Orb disappeared,
the capital city is gone in a seething pool of Chaos. And what's
happened to the Empire now? They're worried that the price of fruit is
dropping because of teleportation.
Konrad Gaertner
>
> Is there ever a figure given for how long the Interregnum lasted, and
> how long Zerika has held the throne in Vlad's time?
We're told in the first chapter of _Jhereg_ that 243 years have passed
since the Interregnum. In _Phoenix_, Verra says the Interregnum
lasted 499 years, but that figures sounds more like the time since
Adron's disaster. Note also that _The Phoenix Guards_ was published
309 years after the Interregnum, and _Five Hundred Years After_ was
published at least 11 years after that (more likely 20-50).
--KG
Damien Neil
<iay...@panix.com> wrote:
> >But we do see some society developments - with great changes in level of
> >sorcery. And there are humans around as well - who should change as humans
> >do.
>
> Sure. And we see what happens when they try to change. Khaavren ends up
> hanging about with his sword out.
I just reread _Phoenix_ recently. One thing I caught this time which I
hadn't seen before is that Khaavren resigned over the massacre of
Easterners.
He seems to be back at work again in _Orca_, although Kiera makes a
comment about his resignation in passing.
- Damien
lazarus
>
>On 29-Mar-2002, iay...@panix.com (Ian A. York) wrote:
>
>> >Whatever their life spans are, I don't believe in it. There is too much
>> >killing for one, for them to live that long - and society doesn't change
>> >at
>> >a rate that works for me for those characters.
>>
>> Remember who is showing us Draegarean society. If you read a book about
>> America narrated by Howie "The Rifleman" Brazee, executioner for the
>> Mafia, what kind of average lifespan would you extrapolate from that?
>
>The description of war looks too much like war - people die. We have three
>different writers, all discussing duels and death. If you keep living in
>war, luck will eventually go against you.
>
And they tend to be revivified, too.
--
lazarus
"This idea that you don't critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense,"
--Richard Shelby
"We can support the troops without supporting the President.''
--Trent Lott
EdLincoln
>From: how...@brazee.net
>Date: Fri, Mar 29, 2002 9:15 AM
>Message-id: <rG_o8.294$KF.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>
>
>
>On 29-Mar-2002, iay...@panix.com (Ian A. York) wrote:
>
>> >Whatever their life spans are, I don't believe in it. There is too much
>> >killing for one, for them to live that long - and society doesn't change
>> >at
>> >a rate that works for me for those characters.
>>
>> Remember who is showing us Draegarean society. If you read a book about
>> America narrated by Howie "The Rifleman" Brazee, executioner for the
>> Mafia, what kind of average lifespan would you extrapolate from that?
>
>The description of war looks too much like war - people die.
How many wars does the average Drageran get involved in in a century? Most of
the Dragerans we get to know are dragons, the warrior caste, and thus more
likely to be involved in wars then others, like, say, Lyorn. Most of the wars
we hear of from Clad are small affairs, unlikely to affect average lifespans.
We see a near war with a small island kingdom, squables with easterners (a
vastly weaker power that exists because the first emperor wanted to give
dragons something to do) and a small rebellion. They would affect average life
spans no more than the Vietnam war did.
We have three
>different writers, all discussing duels and death. If you keep living in
>war, luck will eventually go against you.
True. These should shorten the lives of Dragons and Dzur.
>
>> As for society changes, I don't think you can reasonably compare. Quite
>> apart from the fact that Draegareans are different species, there are
>> certainly external influences holding back, and moving forward, parts
>of
>> the society; we see the gods interfering at intervals, so we know that.
>
>But we do see some society developments - with great changes in level of
>sorcery. And there are humans around as well - who should change as humans
>do.
>
>
>
>
>
Edward K. Lincoln
http://members.tripod.com/~EdLincoln/SF.html
"shellfish are the prime cause of the decline of morals and the adoption of an
extravagant life style" Pliny the Elder
Avram Grumer
eastern lands, Fenario. It's a Hungarian-influenced land, presumably
the one from which Vlad's ancestors came. Anyway, one of the
characters, the King's wizard, is a sorceror -- he has a link to the
Orb, and practices sorcery (though those aren't the terms used, but it's
obvious that's what's going on) even though he's an Easterner. At one
point, he mentions that he's used the power to extend his lifespan,
though he doesn't say how old he is, and he does say that he can't
extend it indefinitely. Shortly thereafter, the book says that he
hasn't felt fear in over a century, which gives you a lower bound for
his age.
--
Avram Grumer | av...@grumer.org | http://www.PigsAndFishes.org
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to
stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile,
but is morally treasonable to the American public." -- Theodore Roosevelt
David Silberstein
>In article <JJQo8.10528$VJ1.1...@bin3.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,
>Ray <rDrovouil...@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:
>>
>>anywhere from 17^2 to 17^3 (289-4913) years. I also get the impression that
>>only one empiror reigns for a cycle. When the empiror dies or steps down,
>
>Not possible. Teckla have a republic, for one thing.
I always wondered how this works. Does the Orb protect/empower the
entire Senate (or Parliament), or just the Speaker/President of same?
Or does the governing body elect a titular Emperor who receives the
Orb for X years (presumably some multiple of 17, perhaps even as
small as 102, or even 68)?
David Silberstein
Avram Grumer <av...@grumer.org> wrote:
>I'm rereading Brust's _Brokedown Palace_, which is set in one of the
>eastern lands, Fenario. It's a Hungarian-influenced land, presumably
>the one from which Vlad's ancestors came. Anyway, one of the
>characters, the King's wizard, is a sorceror -- he has a link to the
>Orb, and practices sorcery (though those aren't the terms used, but it's
>obvious that's what's going on) even though he's an Easterner. At one
>point, he mentions that he's used the power to extend his lifespan,
>though he doesn't say how old he is, and he does say that he can't
>extend it indefinitely. Shortly thereafter, the book says that he
>hasn't felt fear in over a century, which gives you a lower bound for
>his age.
>
This was discussed here before. One of the things I wondered then
(and still do) is whether Dragaerans were dying (of old age) any
faster during the Interregnum.
David Silberstein
> <how...@brazee.net> wrote:
>
>>But we do see some society developments - with great changes
>>in level of sorcery. And there are humans around as well -
>>who should change as humans do.
>
>Sure. And we see what happens when they try to change.
>Khaavren ends up hanging about with his sword out.
>
Yeah, in the *Empire*. How about in Fenario? Why are there no
Fenarian Universities, no forces changing the Fenarian social
and political and economic systems? They have writing; why don't
they have good records of history instead of those amusing but
annoyingly imprecise fairy tales?
Morgan Lewis
> In article <a81tnf$7n9$1...@news.panix.com>, Ian A. York
> <iay...@panix.com> wrote:
> > >But we do see some society developments - with great changes in level of
> > >sorcery. And there are humans around as well - who should change as humans
> > >do.
> >
> > Sure. And we see what happens when they try to change. Khaavren ends up
> > hanging about with his sword out.
>
> I just reread _Phoenix_ recently. One thing I caught this time which I
> hadn't seen before is that Khaavren resigned over the massacre of
> Easterners.
>
Yes, I caught that on a re-read as well. It seems to slip by on the
first go, doesn't it?
> He seems to be back at work again in _Orca_, although Kiera makes a
> comment about his resignation in passing.
>
> - Damien
>
From the way Kiera said it, it sounds as if Khaavren resigning is a
relatively common thing. Almost a gesture of "I don't approve" rather
than an actual resignation, since the Empire seems to want to convince
him to keep staying.
--
Morgan Lewis
m...@efn.org
mle...@cs.uoregon.edu
Ian A. York
First, I don't think we know enough about Fenario to tell. (At least I
don't. It's been a while since I read Brokedown Palace, and I probably
have forgotten a lot.) Is Fenario all "The East", for example? I have
the impression it's just a smallish kingdom, abutting Draegarea but not
necessarily even the only human kingdom to do so. And what's on its other
side?
What we know about Fenario's history suggests, at least to me, that there
have been strong external forces actively stabilizing it. Goddesses, for
example, and sorcerers.
And even so, we only know a little bit of Fenario's history, don't we?
And going back a relatively short way. (I could easily be wrong on that,
though.)
Konrad Gaertner
>
> In article <GtxHG...@kithrup.com>,
> David Silberstein <dav...@kithrup.com> wrote:
> >Ian A. York <iay...@panix.com> wrote:
> >
> >Yeah, in the *Empire*. How about in Fenario? Why are there no
> >Fenarian Universities, no forces changing the Fenarian social
> >and political and economic systems? They have writing; why don't
> >they have good records of history instead of those amusing but
> >annoyingly imprecise fairy tales?
>
> First, I don't think we know enough about Fenario to tell. (At least I
> don't. It's been a while since I read Brokedown Palace, and I probably
> have forgotten a lot.) Is Fenario all "The East", for example? I have
> the impression it's just a smallish kingdom, abutting Draegarea but not
> necessarily even the only human kingdom to do so. And what's on its other
> side?
There's many Eastern kingdoms; the ones north and south of Fenario
seem even less advanced.
> What we know about Fenario's history suggests, at least to me, that there
> have been strong external forces actively stabilizing it. Goddesses, for
> example, and sorcerers.
>
> And even so, we only know a little bit of Fenario's history, don't we?
> And going back a relatively short way. (I could easily be wrong on that,
> though.)
Do we see any books in _Brokedown Palace_? Maybe the Fenarian
publishing industry didn't start until afterwards.
--KG
Avram Grumer
Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Do we see any books in _Brokedown Palace_? Maybe the Fenarian
> publishing industry didn't start until afterwards.
They've got books; Sandor is hidden behind a stack of them in the Old
Library at one point. The Old Library has books from other lands, but
the New Library has books "copied and bound in Fenario by clerks and
monks in the service of the Demon Goddess." So they don't seem to have
printing presses. And I suspect the Demon Goddess gets to censor
whatever she wants.
EdLincoln
If Washington DC was nuked by people who felt Gore really won the election, and
all technology in the world inexplicably stopped working for two years, would
the USA be invaded, and how long would it take for us to recover?
>Subject: Re: Lifespans in Brust's Dragaera books
>From: Konrad Gaertner kgae...@worldnet.att.net
>Date: Tue, Apr 2, 2002 3:53 PM
>Message-id: <3CAA1B86...@worldnet.att.net>
Robert Carnegie
> If Washington DC was nuked by people who felt Gore really won
> the election, and all technology in the world inexplicably
> stopped working for two years, would the USA be invaded,
> and how long would it take for us to recover?
Without technology, America would immediately be invaded
by those Mexican economic migrants; and as for recovering,
I think you'd better start studying Spanish.
At least it's not as difficult as Norman French...long memory :-)
A.C.
news:20020403010638...@mb-mr.aol.com...
>
> If Washington DC was nuked by people who felt Gore really won the
election, and
> all technology in the world inexplicably stopped working for two years,
would
> the USA be invaded, and how long would it take for us to recover?
If all technology stopped working, everyone would be far too busy reeling to
do any invading.
--
nomadi...@hotmail.com | http://nomadic.simspace.net
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other
countries because you were born in it."-- George Bernard Shaw
stan
Carnegie) wrote:
>edli...@aol.com (EdLincoln) wrote in message news:<20020403010638...@mb-mr.aol.com>...
>> If Washington DC was nuked by people who felt Gore really won
>> the election, and all technology in the world inexplicably
>> stopped working for two years, would the USA be invaded,
>> and how long would it take for us to recover?
>
>Without technology, America would immediately be invaded
>by those Mexican economic migrants;
Who no doubt would be sure that America would rebuild its technology
before any other country.
Louann Miller
<nomadi...@removethistomailmehotmail.com> wrote:
>If all technology stopped working, everyone would be far too busy reeling to
>do any invading.
I thought for a sec you wrote "reading."
Louann, noting it's "turn your tv off for a week" Week or some such.
--
"Hey, you know that metric ton of spam you're suddenly getting every time you open your mailbox? That was us! We sold you out to our advertisers, not just a few of them but every advertising category we've got, even though you specifically turned those ads down when you signed up! Banners, popups, and "sponsored links" in the search engine aren't enough any more -- we want to process you for every possible commercial advantage like a cow in a slaughterhouse. Start buying things, you prole, that's all you're good for." -- Yahoo 'changes to privacy policy' notification, first draft (rejected by PR dept.)
Sea Wasp
>
> If Washington DC was nuked by people who felt Gore really won the election, and
> all technology in the world inexplicably stopped working for two years, would
> the USA be invaded, and how long would it take for us to recover?
Of course we wouldn't be. If all technology stopped working, there'd
be no boats, no weapons beyond fists, no fire use, and so on. Massive
die-off.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.htm
Konrad Gaertner
>
> In article <3CAA1B86...@worldnet.att.net>,
> Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > Do we see any books in _Brokedown Palace_? Maybe the Fenarian
> > publishing industry didn't start until afterwards.
>
> They've got books; Sandor is hidden behind a stack of them in the Old
> Library at one point. The Old Library has books from other lands, but
> the New Library has books "copied and bound in Fenario by clerks and
> monks in the service of the Demon Goddess." So they don't seem to have
> printing presses. And I suspect the Demon Goddess gets to censor
> whatever she wants.
In _Dragon_ we see some books that were "published" in the East; not
sure if that means "printed" or just "bound".
--KG
Mike Schilling
>>the election, and all technology in the world inexplicably
>>stopped working for two years, would the USA be invaded,
>>and how long would it take for us to recover?
Idiot scenario. It's not the Gore supporters who are being free and
easy with the nukes.
EdLincoln
HREF="mailto:mscotts...@hotmail.com">mscotts...@hotmail.com</A>
singled out the "Gore" part of my scenario as what was implausible.
>Subject: Re: Interregnum for USA Was: Re: Lifespans in Brust's Dragaera
>books
>From: Sea Wasp sea...@wizvax.net
>Date: Wed, Apr 3, 2002 10:57 AM
>Message-id: <3CAB27...@wizvax.net>
>
>EdLincoln wrote:
>>
>> If Washington DC was nuked by people who felt Gore really won the election,
>and
>> all technology in the world inexplicably stopped working for two years,
>would
>> the USA be invaded, and how long would it take for us to recover?
>
> Of course we wouldn't be. If all technology stopped working, there'd
>be no boats, no weapons beyond fists, no fire use, and so on. Massive
>die-off.
>
OK, I had been thinking "modern technology", not fire and swords. Of course,
fire and swords are technology, so you are correct. I will therefore define my
scenario better.
An alien spaship functions by altering the laws of nature so that there is no
light speed limit, but in stead an absolute temperature limit (111 degrees F).
In passing by our planet, they alter the laws of nature so that nothing can
reach boiling. (This zone does not extend to our sun). Cars and generators that
require something to hit boiling no longer work, nor does any electronics any
portion of which reaches 110 degrees in ordinary operation.
After two years, the aliens apologize, put things right, and as reparations,
make copper a room temperature superconductor and iron a frictionless surface.
(I wanted something analoagous to the fact sorcery worked better in Dragera
after the Interregnum...)
How's that for an idiot scenario?
>
>
>--
> Sea Wasp
> /^\
> ;;;
> http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.htm
>
>
>
>
>
Lee DeRaud
[snip]
>After two years, the aliens apologize, put things right, and as reparations,
>make copper a room temperature superconductor and iron a frictionless surface.
"God damn it!!! How many times do I have to tell you not to put your
coffee cup on top of the car?!?"
Or, as George Carlin puts it, how *do* they get the teflon to stick to
the bottom of the frying pan?
Lee
Ray
"Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3CAB29DD...@hotmail.com...
Nah... just with Tomahawk missiles - to cover up some sexual misconduct.
Ray
<snip>
> OK, I had been thinking "modern technology", not fire and swords. Of
course,
> fire and swords are technology, so you are correct. I will therefore
define my
> scenario better.
>
> An alien spaship functions by altering the laws of nature so that there is
no
> light speed limit, but in stead an absolute temperature limit (111 degrees
F).
> In passing by our planet, they alter the laws of nature so that nothing
can
> reach boiling. (This zone does not extend to our sun). Cars and generators
that
> require something to hit boiling no longer work, nor does any electronics
any
> portion of which reaches 110 degrees in ordinary operation.
Actually, most electronics would work fine. The CRT I'm using now wouldn't
work, but my laptop (and everyone's LCD screen) would work.
We would lose AC power, so we would need to run everything from batteries.
Internal combustion cars wouldn't work, but electric cars would work - until
they ran out of battery power (because the juice is off).
If you live near a hydroelectric plant, you'll be able to get power. If you
have a windmill or water wheel, you'll be able to rig a way to get power.
We wouldn't be able to manufacture chips, or solder them into place.
>
> After two years, the aliens apologize, put things right, and as
reparations,
> make copper a room temperature superconductor and iron a frictionless
surface.
> (I wanted something analoagous to the fact sorcery worked better in
Dragera
> after the Interregnum...)
>
> How's that for an idiot scenario?
It would make an interesting story.
Ray Drouillard
Konrad Gaertner
>
[snip aliens preventing temperatures from exceeding 111 degrees F]
This would make cooking a *real* challenge.
--KG
Michael S. Schiffer
<3CAB86FB...@worldnet.att.net>:
>Ray wrote:
>>
>[snip aliens preventing temperatures from exceeding 111 degrees F]
>This would make cooking a *real* challenge.
That occurred to me as well. But why not? There was a pretty big
die-off due to disease in the Dragaeran interregnum, and this would
duplicate that to the extent that we didn't develop/reinvent methods
for preparing food. Besides, once the majority of the population dies
due to the total collapse of industry and industrialized agriculture,
that fraction of the remainder that lives where it's warm year round
can concentrate on foods that can be eaten raw and be made relatively
safe by washing or sun-drying. (Those of us who live where it gets
too cold for fresh food to grow are already in trouble, since we'll
freeze to death in the winter anyway.)
Mike
--
Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
msch...@condor.depaul.edu
Jason Bontrager
> An alien spaceship functions by altering the laws of nature so that there is no
> light speed limit, but instead an absolute temperature limit (111 degrees F).
> In passing by our planet, they alter the laws of nature so that nothing can
> reach boiling. (This zone does not extend to our sun).
And yet it affects a planet orbiting that sun for two orbital periods? How
does that work? Did the aliens loop around the Sun at 1 AU just for the
fun of it?
Also, there are plenty of substances that boil at less than 111 degrees F.
Helium for example. Oxygen for another. I suspect Methane would
boil at low temperature too. Plenty of options.
Jason B.
lazarus
Well, at least he got closer to bin Laden than Bush has dreamed of
getting.
We shot a tall man in Afghanistan, though, so we're trying, right?
LOL.
Ray
"lazarus" <lazaru...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:si8nauo4tkpdeng56...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 03 Apr 2002 22:05:31 GMT, "Ray"
> <rDrovouil...@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Mike Schilling" <mscotts...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:3CAB29DD...@hotmail.com...
> >> >>If Washington DC was nuked by people who felt Gore really won
> >> >>the election, and all technology in the world inexplicably
> >> >>stopped working for two years, would the USA be invaded,
> >> >>and how long would it take for us to recover?
> >>
> >> Idiot scenario. It's not the Gore supporters who are being free and
> >> easy with the nukes.
> >
> >
> >Nah... just with Tomahawk missiles - to cover up some sexual misconduct.
> >
> >
>
> Well, at least he got closer to bin Laden than Bush has dreamed of
> getting.
>
> We shot a tall man in Afghanistan, though, so we're trying, right?
> LOL.
Both missed the top dog and figurehead. Bush managed to get a few other
high ranking terrorists, and managed to severely downgrade the terrorists'
ability to kill more innocent people.
lazarus
Really? We've seen no evidence of this, have we? We have wasted a
lot of missiles on tents and camel butts, but.......
Avram Grumer
Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
We also don't know if that means Fenario, or one of the other Eastern
countries.
Also, _Dragon_ takes place after _Brokedown Palace_. Decades after, I
think. And they're decades during which ...
SPOILER FOR _BROKEDOWN PALACE_
... the Demon Goddess can no longer manifest in Fenario.
Avram Grumer
edli...@aol.com (EdLincoln) wrote:
> If Washington DC was nuked by people who felt Gore really won the
> election, and all technology in the world inexplicably stopped
> working for two years, would the USA be invaded, and how long would
> it take for us to recover?
And would it be the Elephant or Donkey Heir who came out of the Paths of
the Dead with the Constitution?
Ray
"Avram Grumer" <av...@grumer.org> wrote in message
news:avram-5426FD....@news1.panix.com...
> In article <3CAB2AD7...@worldnet.att.net>,
> Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> > Avram Grumer wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <3CAA1B86...@worldnet.att.net>,
> > > Konrad Gaertner <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Do we see any books in _Brokedown Palace_? Maybe the Fenarian
> > > > publishing industry didn't start until afterwards.
> > >
> > > They've got books; Sandor is hidden behind a stack of them in the
> > > Old Library at one point. The Old Library has books from other
> > > lands, but the New Library has books "copied and bound in Fenario
> > > by clerks and monks in the service of the Demon Goddess." So they
> > > don't seem to have printing presses. And I suspect the Demon
> > > Goddess gets to censor whatever she wants.
> >
> > In _Dragon_ we see some books that were "published" in the East; not
> > sure if that means "printed" or just "bound".
>
> We also don't know if that means Fenario, or one of the other Eastern
> countries.
>
> Also, _Dragon_ takes place after _Brokedown Palace_. Decades after, I
> think. And they're decades during which ...
>
> SPOILER FOR _BROKEDOWN PALACE_
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ... the Demon Goddess can no longer manifest in Fenario.
I'm still trying to figure out why the character that helped to do her in
was known as a "Taltos Horse". Is there some connection with Vlad's family?
Ray
Ray
> In article <20020403010638...@mb-mr.aol.com>,
> edli...@aol.com (EdLincoln) wrote:
>
> > If Washington DC was nuked by people who felt Gore really won the
> > election, and all technology in the world inexplicably stopped
> > working for two years, would the USA be invaded, and how long would
> > it take for us to recover?
>
> And would it be the Elephant or Donkey Heir who came out of the Paths of
> the Dead with the Constitution?
Well... looking at the demographics of the situation:
The donkey folks are more concentrated in the urban areas.
The elephant folks are more concentrated in the rural areas.
The "interregnum" will cause quite a bit of death. The folks in the rural
areas are more likely to survive.
Therefore, if nothing else, there will be more elephants than donkeys after
the interregnum.
Ray
David Eppstein
"Ray" <rDrovouil...@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:
> I'm still trying to figure out why the character that [spoiler]
> was known as a "Taltos Horse". Is there some connection with Vlad's family?
I've heard that "Taltós" means something resembling "magical" in
Hungarian. I'm not sure what that means about Vlad's family, but his
grandfather is a witch, so it fits...
--
David Eppstein UC Irvine Dept. of Information & Computer Science
epps...@ics.uci.edu http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/
EdLincoln
>books
>Date: Wed, Apr 3, 2002 7:02 PM
>Message-id: <3CAB9824...@mail.utexas.edu>
>
>EdLincoln wrote:
>
>> An alien spaceship functions by altering the laws of nature so that there
>is no
>> light speed limit, but instead an absolute temperature limit (111 degrees
>F).
>> In passing by our planet, they alter the laws of nature so that nothing
>can
>> reach boiling. (This zone does not extend to our sun).
>
>And yet it affects a planet orbiting that sun for two orbital periods?
>How
>does that work? Did the aliens loop around the Sun at 1 AU just for the
>fun of it?
yup.
Or, rather, they spent some time darting from one planet to asteroid to planet
as part f their survey of our solar system, leaving the systems crisscrossed
with their paths, but stayed away from the sun or obvious reasons.
>
>Also, there are plenty of substances that boil at less than 111 degrees
>F.
>Helium for example.
True. Your point? How was trying to come up with a scenario that would end
rtechnology but alow swords and hoes. Could you run technology on Earth using
the fact that helium boils? Could we figure out how to do so, and put it into
effect on a largescale, in less than two years?
Oxygen for another. I suspect Methane would
>boil at low temperature too. Plenty of options.
>
>Jason B.
>
>
>
>
>
>
EdLincoln
>books
>Date: Wed, Apr 3, 2002 6:11 PM
>Message-id: <Xns91E5AED2C17C...@130.133.1.4>
Sweaters and parkas can actually be very effective. Enough layers, and you can
probably survive year round in most of the USA. People who have their heating
cut off do not always die, and homeless people sometimes survive the winter
outside in aeas where fires are not feasible.
Tomatoes most vegetables can be eaten fine without cooking. Sushi is edible,
despite what some say. Raw beef is also a gormet food in some circles. Of
course, I'm not sure grain would be at all useable. On the other hand, how
long can we last on canned food? It is only two years.
And could we get a transportation infrastructure set up using electric cars,
windmills, and horses? Would any semblance of a government survive? How would
Lincoln Almonfd handle the situation?
>
>Mike
>
>--
>Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
>msch...@condor.depaul.edu
>
>
>
>
>
Zoltan Somogyi
>I've heard that "Taltos" means something resembling "magical" in
>Hungarian.
As a native speaker of Hungarian, I can confirm that this is correct.
Zoltan Somogyi <z...@cs.mu.OZ.AU> http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/~zs/
Department of Computer Science and Software Engineering, Univ. of Melbourne
Robert Carnegie
> EdLincoln wrote:
>
> > An alien spaceship functions by altering the laws of nature so that there is no
> > light speed limit, but instead an absolute temperature limit (111 degrees F).
> > In passing by our planet, they alter the laws of nature so that nothing can
> > reach boiling. (This zone does not extend to our sun).
>
> And yet it affects a planet orbiting that sun for two orbital periods? How
> does that work? Did the aliens loop around the Sun at 1 AU just for the
> fun of it?
No, it takes that long for the phlogiston inadvertently dumped into
the Earth's atmosphere to dissipate?
> Also, there are plenty of substances that boil at less than 111 degrees F.
> Helium for example. Oxygen for another. I suspect Methane would
> boil at low temperature too. Plenty of options.
Yeah, but if we can't use metal to build these engines, either -
In the rented flat I just quit, there was a slow-cooker laid on,
but I never used it. What temperature do you need to cook?
I mean, I think my washing machine can do laundry at above
11 Fahrenheit...
Martin Soederstroem
wrote:
>David Eppstein <epps...@ics.uci.edu> writes:
>>I've heard that "Taltos" means something resembling "magical" in
>>Hungarian.
>
>As a native speaker of Hungarian, I can confirm that this is correct.
Was Zelazny Hungarian? His Dilvish had a Taltos Horsie.
--
Martin
This is not a sig.
Lee DeRaud
<rDrovouil...@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:
>"EdLincoln" <edli...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20020403132626...@mb-mw.aol.com...
>> require something to hit boiling no longer work, nor does any electronics any
>> portion of which reaches 110 degrees in ordinary operation.
>
>Actually, most electronics would work fine. The CRT I'm using now wouldn't
>work, but my laptop (and everyone's LCD screen) would work.
>
>We would lose AC power, so we would need to run everything from batteries.
Maybe *your* laptop would work, but the batteries in every laptop I've
ever used get to that level routinely. (I've seen a few where the
bottom of the *case* gets well over 100 degrees.)
Lee
Mike Schilling
As opposed to invading Grenada to distract from complete failures of
both kinds of intelligence in Beirut?
Jason Bontrager
> Yeah, but if we can't use metal to build these engines, either -
I'd be more concerned about generators than engines, and those
should be convertible fairly easily.
> In the rented flat I just quit, there was a slow-cooker laid on,
> but I never used it. What temperature do you need to cook?
> I mean, I think my washing machine can do laundry at above
> 11 Fahrenheit...
This could be a problem. I see a return to Bran. The Hippies
Revenge:-).
Jason B.
Jason Bontrager
> True. Your point? How was trying to come up with a scenario that would end
> rtechnology but alow swords and hoes. Could you run technology on Earth using
> the fact that helium boils? Could we figure out how to do so, and put it into
> effect on a largescale, in less than two years?
As I understand the scenario he was saying that electricity didn't work anymore
because water (to turn turbines) couldn't be brought to boiling anymore. But
turbines don't care if they're being pushed by steam or helium or whatever.
If there are fluids that can boil at less than 111 degrees F, then they can be
used as working fluids in generators. So modern tech doesn't stop working.
Jason B.
Michael S. Schiffer
> edli...@aol.com (EdLincoln) wrote:
>> If Washington DC was nuked by people who felt Gore really won
>> the election, and all technology in the world inexplicably
>> stopped working for two years, would the USA be invaded, and how
>> long would it take for us to recover?
>And would it be the Elephant or Donkey Heir who came out of the
>Paths of the Dead with the Constitution?
If the situation was as above, then it's unclear. It's easier if the
disgruntled guys with the nukes are the challengers rather than the
incumbents, since that maps to the Dragaeran situation. So set it in
late November 2000, with Bush/Adron believing that the cycle has
turned and the Elephants should take the throne. Bush somehow nukes
Washington when he and Clinton are still in it, and Gore is the one
who walks out of the Paths of the Dead a few years later. (Though
Clinton would have been much better suited to be the popular ruler
with a scandalous lover than Gore is.)
Another poster noted that the areas in which people are more likely
to survive the tech drought are heavily Republican. That works too,
since Gore should to all appearances be the last of the House of the
Donkey, with no clear idea where more are going to come from.
(So what city maps to Adrilankha, a medium-sized port that becomes
the new capital?)
Jerry Friedman
> David Eppstein <epps...@ics.uci.edu> writes:
> >I've heard that "Taltos" means something resembling "magical" in
> >Hungarian.
>
> As a native speaker of Hungarian, I can confirm that this is correct.
Thank you! (In the terms of Brust's books, I suspect that we should
translate Vlad's surname "Taltos" as "witch".)
I've got two questions about Hungarian pronunciation in Brust's books
that I'd be grateful for answers to:
In _Brokedown Palace_ there's a "Hungarian" character, a prince or
general or some such, named Fenarr. He also shows up in _The Phoenix
Guards_, where we're told his name is something unpronounceable that
will be represented as "Crionofenarr" (if I remember correctly). Is
there a Hungarian explanation for that, such as a title that might
sound like "Criono" to a foreigner?
And is there any reason that a Hungarian might find the name
"Bolcseseg" hard to pronounce? (There's a long umlaut on the o, and I
forget whether there's an accent on either e.)
--
Jerry Friedman
Gerry Quinn
>On 3 Apr 2002 05:27:30 -0800, rja.ca...@excite.com (Robert
>Carnegie) wrote:
>
>>edli...@aol.com (EdLincoln) wrote in message
> news:<20020403010638...@mb-mr.aol.com>...
>>> If Washington DC was nuked by people who felt Gore really won
>>> the election, and all technology in the world inexplicably
>>> stopped working for two years, would the USA be invaded,
>>> and how long would it take for us to recover?
>>
>>by those Mexican economic migrants;
>
>Who no doubt would be sure that America would rebuild its technology
>before any other country.
The nuking of Washington should compensate for any ill effects of
technology not-working!
Of course, it depends what you mean by technology. Computers? Guns?
Knives? Spectacles? Clothes? Fire? Shovels?
- Gerry Quinn
Jerry Friedman
> "EdLincoln" <edli...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20020403132626...@mb-mw.aol.com...
>
> <snip>
>
> > OK, I had been thinking "modern technology", not fire and swords. Of
> course,
> > fire and swords are technology, so you are correct. I will therefore
> define my
> > scenario better.
> >
> > An alien spaship functions by altering the laws of nature so that there is
> no
> > light speed limit, but in stead an absolute temperature limit (111 degrees
> F).
> > In passing by our planet, they alter the laws of nature so that nothing
> can
> > reach boiling. (This zone does not extend to our sun). Cars and generators
> that
> > require something to hit boiling no longer work, nor does any electronics
> any
> > portion of which reaches 110 degrees in ordinary operation.
If you want to mimic the effects of the Interregnum, I think making
metals act as insulators would do the trick.
> Actually, most electronics would work fine. The CRT I'm using now wouldn't
> work, but my laptop (and everyone's LCD screen) would work.
>
> We would lose AC power, so we would need to run everything from batteries.
Though once the batteries ran out, we'd have a lot of trouble making
more.
...
--
Jerry Friedman
Lee Ann Rucker
<loua...@yahoo.net> wrote:
> "Hey, you know that metric ton of spam you're suddenly getting every time you
> open your mailbox? That was us! We sold you out to our advertisers, not just
> a few of them but every advertising category we've got, even though you
> specifically turned those ads down when you signed up! Banners, popups, and
> "sponsored links" in the search engine aren't enough any more -- we want to
> process you for every possible commercial advantage like a cow in a
> slaughterhouse. Start buying things, you prole, that's all you're good for."
> -- Yahoo 'changes to privacy policy' notification, first draft (rejected by
> PR dept.)
<sigh> and after I'd just signed up to several mailing lists, too. I'd
like to quit them in protest, but Yahoo seems to have sucked up all the
mailing lists.
Here's how to zap it in one shot (thanks to someone at slashdot)
http://subscribe.yahoo.com/showaccount?.done=&.opt_fe=n&.opt_sh=n&.opt_t
r=n&.opt_fi=n&.opt_en=n&.opt_hj=n&.opt_pe=n&.opt_ma=n&.opt_ca=n&.opt_sr=
n&.opt_ge=n&.opt_au=n&.opt_bu=n&.opt_offer=n&.em_offer=em&.opt_addr=n&.o
pt_ph=n&.submit=Save+Changes
John Schilling
>On Thu, 04 Apr 2002 02:23:34 GMT, "Ray"
><rDrovouil...@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:
[Clinton v Al Qaeda]
>>> Well, at least he got closer to bin Laden than Bush has dreamed of
>>> getting.
>>> We shot a tall man in Afghanistan, though, so we're trying, right?
>>> LOL.
>>Both missed the top dog and figurehead. Bush managed to get a few other
>>high ranking terrorists, and managed to severely downgrade the terrorists'
>>ability to kill more innocent people.
>Really? We've seen no evidence of this, have we? We have wasted a
>lot of missiles on tents and camel butts, but.......
We took an entire country away from our enemies and gave it to some
relatively decent people instead. Apparently you missed that small
development.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schi...@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
Konrad Gaertner
That's one situation where our tech would work *better* with the heat
limit. Semiconductor electronics don't like high temperatures
(that's why modern computers have multiple fans built into them). I
don't know much about vacuum tubes; I know they produce significant
amounts of heat, but is that good or bad for their performance?
--KG
Ray
"Lee DeRaud" <lee.d...@boeing.com> wrote in message
news:4troauoshp0hs8459...@4ax.com...
That might be true, but the heat is undesirable. Magically causing the heat
to go away would help the laptop, not hurt it.
As a matter of fact, you would be able to run your 2 GHz Athlon without a
heatsink.
Ray
Ray
"Konrad Gaertner" <kgae...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:3CACB07F...@worldnet.att.net...
Vacuum tubes work by thermionic emission. The cathode has to be hot in
order for the tube to work. Vacuum tubes would fail if temperatures were
limited to 111 degrees Fahrenheit.
Ray
David Johnston
> >Really? We've seen no evidence of this, have we? We have wasted a
> >lot of missiles on tents and camel butts, but.......
>
> We took an entire country away from our enemies and gave it to some
> relatively decent people instead. Apparently you missed that small
> development.
It remains to be seen whether that achievement will last five
minutes after our troops leave.
Barry DeCicco
Jason Bontrager wrote:
> As I understand the scenario he was saying that electricity didn't work anymore
> because water (to turn turbines) couldn't be brought to boiling anymore. But
> turbines don't care if they're being pushed by steam or helium or whatever.
> If there are fluids that can boil at less than 111 degrees F, then they can be
> used as working fluids in generators. So modern tech doesn't stop working.
> Jason B.
Well, actually it does, since it's dependent on steam power. Now, in
theory,
it'd be possible to build some alternate tech devices, but that would be
limited
by the howling chaos that would be the state of the world.
Barry
Lee DeRaud
Sigh. Re-read the original premise: any portion of any electronics
that reaches 110 degrees STOPS WORKING. It's not just that at that
point it stops getting hotter, it also stops doing *anything*.
Lee
Lee DeRaud
But that's true *now*: yes, our tech works better *if* we can keep it
cold (well, cool, anyway). But our *current* tech tends to run
*hotter* than 110, so it will simply stop working under these
conditions.
Lee
Ray
When I first fire my computer up, the processor is cooler than 110 degrees.
It runs fine.
Limiting the temperature to 110 degrees is not going to cause it to stop
working.
Ray Drouillard
Ray
Well, if you're going to handwave it to act thus, then it acts thus ;-)
I guess I would have to get a better heat sink.
Ray
Ryno
message <040420021007216327%lru...@mac.com>.
In response:
>
><sigh> and after I'd just signed up to several mailing lists, too. I'd
>like to quit them in protest, but Yahoo seems to have sucked up all the
>mailing lists.
>
Want mailing lists not subject to Yahoo?
Try these: www.smartgroups.com and www.topica.com
Ryno
--
"Not to be able to bear poverty is a shameful thing,
but not to know how to chase it away by work
is a more shameful thing yet."
- Pericles
Terry Austin
of refrigerating their components to up the speed by controlling
heat. All computer electronics (as opposed to mechanical parts,
like drive motors) love cold temperatures; the colder the better.
You can dip you CPU and motherboard into liquid nitrogen
and it will be very happy.
Terry Austin
Terry Austin
And the whole "110 degrees" thing isn't handwaving to the exact
same degree?
Terry Austin
Ray
"Terry Austin" <tau...@hyperbooks.com> wrote in message
news:a8ipp...@enews3.newsguy.com...
Of course it is. Why would anyone say otherwise?
Ray
Bill Snyder
Oh, great, I can hardly wait to be called a liar or an idiot. No, you
can't do any such thing. Pick up any chip catalog, and you'll see
that there are _minimum_ as well as maximum working and storage temps
cited. And those specs are there for a reason. Some of them will
work at temperatures far below freezing -- minus 55C is common for
industrial-grade chips -- but the boiling point of LN2 is around
-195C.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.]
Carl Dershem
> >>>
> >>[snip aliens preventing temperatures from exceeding 111 degrees F]
> >
> >>This would make cooking a *real* challenge.
> >
> >That occurred to me as well. But why not? There was a pretty big
> >die-off due to disease in the Dragaeran interregnum, and this would
> >duplicate that to the extent that we didn't develop/reinvent methods
> >for preparing food. Besides, once the majority of the population dies
> >due to the total collapse of industry and industrialized agriculture,
> >that fraction of the remainder that lives where it's warm year round
> >can concentrate on foods that can be eaten raw and be made relatively
> >safe by washing or sun-drying. (Those of us who live where it gets
> >too cold for fresh food to grow are already in trouble, since we'll
> >freeze to death in the winter anyway.)
>
> Sweaters and parkas can actually be very effective. Enough layers, and you can
> probably survive year round in most of the USA. People who have their heating
> cut off do not always die, and homeless people sometimes survive the winter
> outside in aeas where fires are not feasible.
>
> Tomatoes most vegetables can be eaten fine without cooking. Sushi is edible,
> despite what some say. Raw beef is also a gormet food in some circles. Of
> course, I'm not sure grain would be at all useable. On the other hand, how
> long can we last on canned food? It is only two years.
>
> And could we get a transportation infrastructure set up using electric cars,
> windmills, and horses? Would any semblance of a government survive? How would
> Lincoln Almonfd handle the situation?
On the 111 degrees idea... what temperatures do fermenting foodstuffs
reach? Might there be other subtle biological processes that might be
damaged here that we've missed?
cd
--
Death to all Absolutists!
Ray
"Carl Dershem" <der...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3CAD0780...@cox.net...
If you're making bread, it will rise quickly if it's brought up to about 100
degrees F or more. It won't get there on its own, though.
Beer and wind fermentation is done at room temperature or below [1]. It
generally isn't intentionally heated [2], and it doesn't generate much heat
on its own.
OTOH, manure that is in the process of being reduced can get quite hot.
This might be useful for heating houses in the cooler areas. It used to be
used for heating hothouses (greenhouses)
[1] Lager beer is often fermented at just above freezing.
[2] Some commercial breweries might heat the wort in order to speed up the
manufacturing process - at the cost of the beer's taste.
Ray Drouillard
Ray
> An alien spaship functions by altering the laws of nature so that there is
no
> light speed limit, but in stead an absolute temperature limit (111 degrees
F).
> In passing by our planet, they alter the laws of nature so that nothing
can
> reach boiling. (This zone does not extend to our sun). Cars and generators
that
> require something to hit boiling no longer work, nor does any electronics
any
> portion of which reaches 110 degrees in ordinary operation.
>
> After two years, the aliens apologize, put things right, and as
reparations,
> make copper a room temperature superconductor and iron a frictionless
surface.
> (I wanted something analoagous to the fact sorcery worked better in
Dragera
> after the Interregnum...)
>
> How's that for an idiot scenario?
Well... the first thing that would happen is that the core and mantle would
freeze. The crust would buckle, creating lots of earthquakes and making
lots of mountains. The driving force of plate tectonics would stop, so
there would be no more earthquakes after the initial freezing. There would,
of course, be no volcanoes. "Old Faithful" wouldn't be faithful any more.
All of the tube worms at the volcanic vents would die.
The Earth would be a whole lot more mountainous right afterwards, but then
it would start slowly eroding and, after a long period of time, end up as a
very flat "waterworld". It would probably take some millions of years,
though.
Ray Drouillard
EdLincoln
>books
>From: msch...@condor.depaul.edu (Michael S. Schiffer)
>Date: Thu, Apr 4, 2002 12:15 PM
>Message-id: <Xns91E67283C326...@130.133.1.4>
Boston
>
>Mike
>
>--
>Michael S. Schiffer, LHN, FCS
>msch...@condor.depaul.edu
>
>
>
>
>
Edward K. Lincoln
http://members.tripod.com/~EdLincoln/SF.html
"shellfish are the prime cause of the decline of morals and the adoption of an
extravagant life style" Pliny the Elder
EdLincoln
>books
>Date: Thu, Apr 4, 2002 10:41 AM
>Message-id: <3CAC7413...@mail.utexas.edu>
Neat. Could you make helim or methane turbines work on this planet without
elaborate refrigeration systems that would use more electricity than the
turbines make?
>
>Jason B.
lazarus
wrote:
>lazarus <lazaru...@msn.com> writes:
>
>>On Thu, 04 Apr 2002 02:23:34 GMT, "Ray"
>><rDrovouil...@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:
>
>
>[Clinton v Al Qaeda]
>
>>>> Well, at least he got closer to bin Laden than Bush has dreamed of
>>>> getting.
>
>>>> We shot a tall man in Afghanistan, though, so we're trying, right?
>>>> LOL.
>
>>>Both missed the top dog and figurehead. Bush managed to get a few other
>>>high ranking terrorists, and managed to severely downgrade the terrorists'
>>>ability to kill more innocent people.
>
>>Really? We've seen no evidence of this, have we? We have wasted a
>>lot of missiles on tents and camel butts, but.......
>
>
>We took an entire country away from our enemies and gave it to some
>relatively decent people instead. Apparently you missed that small
>development.
Ah, yes, the same decent people who were so brutal that the Taliban
was welcomed into power. Gotcha. The same decent people that are
presently raping and pillaging when they're not using us to kill each
other off. Good call.
--
lazarus
"This idea that you don't critically evaluate people in high positions during a crisis is nonsense,"
--Richard Shelby
"We can support the troops without supporting the President.''
--Trent Lott
Damien Neil
Eppstein <epps...@ics.uci.edu> wrote:
> In article <l5Sq8.220511$2q2.19...@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com>,
> "Ray" <rDrovouil...@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:
> I've heard that "Taltós" means something resembling "magical" in
> Hungarian. I'm not sure what that means about Vlad's family, but his
> grandfather is a witch, so it fits...
The title character of _The Gypsy_ is referred to as a Taltos. In that
context, a Taltos appears to be a not-entirely-human magical being of
significant power.
One interesting note was that a Taltos loses much of his powers if he
eats food. One wonders what would happen to Vlad if he were to stop
eating...although, this being Vlad, he would never trade food for mere
power.
- Damien
Damien Neil
Lewis <m...@efn.org> wrote:
> From the way Kiera said it, it sounds as if Khaavren resigning is a
> relatively common thing. Almost a gesture of "I don't approve" rather
> than an actual resignation, since the Empire seems to want to convince
> him to keep staying.
I had the impression that he had resigned only the once, although I
can't recall any textual evidence for this. I read Kiera's statement
as, "He just got over his huff about the Empire slaughtering
Easterners; if he finds out about this, he'll probably walk out again".
I'm SO looking forward to _The Viscount of Adhrilanka_. I want to see
more of Khaavren.
- Damien
Daniel Silevitch
<B75D290D7D9A7862.F264D823...@lp.airnews.net>,
Bill Snyder <bsn...@iadfw.net> wrote:
>
> Oh, great, I can hardly wait to be called a liar or an idiot. No, you
> can't do any such thing. Pick up any chip catalog, and you'll see
> that there are _minimum_ as well as maximum working and storage temps
> cited. And those specs are there for a reason. Some of them will
> work at temperatures far below freezing -- minus 55C is common for
> industrial-grade chips -- but the boiling point of LN2 is around
> -195C.
As someone who _has_ dunked chips into liquid nitrogen (and liquid
helium, for that matter), I can say that they do tend to work, even if
they aren't spec'd that low. There are issues, of course. Differential
thermal contraction of various parts can be a problem. Depending on
your cryostat design, you may have your circuit board in direct contact
with the liquid; this can cause problems. Etc. Etc.
I've never cooled down computer chips, but analog stuff (amplifiers,
etc.), work pretty well.
-dms
Louann Miller
The part about them keeping the country, or the part about them being
relatively decent?
--
Lee DeRaud
*If* you can actually do that. The current machines *don't*, ergo,
they will stop working rather quickly. (I also wonder just how long it
takes for the first critical circuit to reach a junction temperature
above 110...will Windows/Linux/Unix even have enough time to boot?)
So you're going to have to either (1) build new machines that stay
cool or (2) figure out how to cool the current ones, in either case
*without* violating the 110 degree limit.
Lee
Robert Carnegie
Right. The specialised cooling equipment that overclockers play with
isn't to make their computer processor _cold_. It's to stop it
melting as its rated power and clock rate is exceeded, and as it
has to dissipate heat beyond its designed capability.
Those big machines that _do_ (did?) use liquid nitrogen cooling
and the like - is this still useful? - and those ideas that people
have for what they can make out of way-below-room-temperature
superconductor materials, are a whole different game to overclocking.
Robert Carnegie
> On 4 Apr 2002 10:53:34 -0800, schi...@spock.usc.edu (John Schilling)
> wrote:
>
> >lazarus <lazaru...@msn.com> writes:
> >
> >>On Thu, 04 Apr 2002 02:23:34 GMT, "Ray"
> >><rDrovouil...@comcast.nospam.net> wrote:
> >
> >
> >[Clinton v Al Qaeda]
> >
> >>>> Well, at least he got closer to bin Laden than Bush has dreamed of
> >>>> getting.
>
> >>>> We shot a tall man in Afghanistan, though, so we're trying, right?
> >>>> LOL.
>
> >>>Both missed the top dog and figurehead. Bush managed to get a few other
> >>>high ranking terrorists, and managed to severely downgrade the terrorists'
> >>>ability to kill more innocent people.
>
> >>Really? We've seen no evidence of this, have we? We have wasted a
> >>lot of missiles on tents and camel butts, but.......
> >
> >
> >We took an entire country away from our enemies and gave it to some
> >relatively decent people instead. Apparently you missed that small
> >development.
>
> Ah, yes, the same decent people who were so brutal that the Taliban
> was welcomed into power. Gotcha. The same decent people that are
> presently raping and pillaging when they're not using us to kill each
> other off. Good call.
The heroin farming gangs, yeah. But the nuclear-armed military
dictatorship that we're* supporting in Pakistan will keep those
other guys in line, right? (*America and Britain, and everyone
else who wants to play along. Sucks to be India right now.)
You know, they could swap over Saddam Hussein and Pervaiz Musharraf.
It would be good for Iraq because America could end sanctions
once he isn't in charge, and a _good_ dictator is in place
instead, and it would be good for President Saddam because then
he'd have nukes.
Lee DeRaud
wrote:
Further: I don't know exactly how LN2 is made (or dry ice either, for
that matter) but I would be astonished if the current methods do not
required some machinery operating at greater than 110 degrees.
So yeah, if you live up north, you can take your laptop out, set it on
top of the snow and work until the battery dies. After that, you're
screwed.
Lee
Bill Snyder
I'm surprised. My experience was with thyristors and dates back many
years, but IIRC the gating current goes *way* up as they get colder,
and past a certain point they effectively stop turning on at all --
the current required to turn them on would blow out the gate or the
bonding wire or both. (Am I right in guessing that you're talking
mostly/only about FET devices? And were they encapsulated?)
In any case, I'd guess that simply dunking one's motherboard in LN2
per Terry's recipe would create lots of other problems -- crack a lot
of solder joints when the solder and copper shrink unevenly, destroy
capacitors, maybe even peel etch off the board or make it delaminate.
(Anybody know the dielectric constant and resistivity for LN2 -- is a
high-speed bus meant to work in air likely to keep on working?)
Jason Bontrager
>
> Neat. Could you make helim or methane turbines work on this planet without
> elaborate refrigeration systems that would use more electricity than the
> turbines make?
Good question. The answer is left as an exercise for the student.
Jason B.
mstemper - emis . com
>That's one situation where our tech would work *better* with the heat
>limit. Semiconductor electronics don't like high temperatures
>(that's why modern computers have multiple fans built into them). I
>don't know much about vacuum tubes; I know they produce significant
>amounts of heat, but is that good or bad for their performance?
The heat's not a by-product, it's necessary for their operation. The way
they work is more or less controlling free-floating electrons that have
been boiled off of conductors.
--
Michael F. Stemper
#include <Standard_Disclaimer>
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him talk like Mr. Ed
by rubbing peanut butter on his gums.
Terry Austin
<mstemper @ siemens - emis . com (Michael Stemper)> wrote in message
news:a8kvc5$9hq$1...@daymark.empros.com...
> In article <3CACB07F...@worldnet.att.net>, Konrad Gaertner
<kgae...@worldnet.att.net> writes:
> >That's one situation where our tech would work *better* with the heat
> >limit. Semiconductor electronics don't like high temperatures
> >(that's why modern computers have multiple fans built into them). I
> >don't know much about vacuum tubes; I know they produce significant
> >amounts of heat, but is that good or bad for their performance?
>
> The heat's not a by-product, it's necessary for their operation. The way
> they work is more or less controlling free-floating electrons that have
> been boiled off of conductors.
Er, dude, computers operate at room temperature. Otherwise,
there'd be a warm-up period. Which there isn't.
Terry Austin
Sea Wasp
> OK, I had been thinking "modern technology", not fire and swords. Of course,
> fire and swords are technology, so you are correct. I will therefore define my
> scenario better.
>
> An alien spaship functions by altering the laws of nature so that there is no
> light speed limit, but in stead an absolute temperature limit (111 degrees F).
> In passing by our planet, they alter the laws of nature so that nothing can
> reach boiling.
Lessee. What happens to things that are already at temperatures above
that level when this change in natural law is instantiated?
Note before you reply: the entirety of the earth below a couple of
miles is well over that temperature. Volcanoes are around 2,000
degrees. Plate tectonics is driven by the fact we're basically the
thin crust on top of a 8,000 mile wide ball of liquid stone and metal.
Where does all THAT energy go? If you just magically solidify it
removing the heat, the continents WERE still moving. That's a hell of
a sudden stop. Sure, it's only an inch or so a year, but that's still
a very, very large moving object.
What scale is this on? Down on the atomic level it's quite possible
for things like biological processes to hit such temperatures even if
the overall living creature never senses them. (Heck, you've just made
Bombardier Beetles extinct, now that I think of it)
Hmm. What about lightning or static electricity? No more
thunderstorms? How is kinetic energy dissipated, then? Do I no longer
get warm if I rub my hands together?
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
http://www.wizvax.net/seawasp/index.htm
Pete McCutchen
Carnegie) wrote:
>edli...@aol.com (EdLincoln) wrote in message news:<20020403010638...@mb-mr.aol.com>...
>> If Washington DC was nuked by people who felt Gore really won
>> the election, and all technology in the world inexplicably
>> stopped working for two years, would the USA be invaded,
>> and how long would it take for us to recover?
>
>Without technology, America would immediately be invaded
>by those Mexican economic migrants; and as for recovering,
>I think you'd better start studying Spanish.
If the "technology blocker" were selective, affecting only the US,
then the Mexicans (and Canadians) would have to worry about an exodus
of economic migrants from the US to points north and south. Mexicans,
after all, come here because of our thriving economy. The "technology
blocker" would put an end to that PDQ. Hence, little immigration to
the US.
If the "technology blocker" affected the entire world, well, we're
talking TEOTWAWKI, and immigration policy isn't going to be a terribly
important issue.
--
Pete McCutchen