How to confront gangs and anti-social people - request for information
limbic
anti-social activity carried out by gangs or anti-social individuals. In these
situations a large number of people are often intimidated, passively witness crimes
and vandalism or flee when faced with the anti-social behaviour or threats of
relatively small groups or even an individuals.
The reasons for this behaviour are complex and have been explored in depth
elsewhere.
I am seeking to list mental tools, recommendations, psychological tricks or other
methods that an individuals in such situations can use to control the situations and
protect themselves and their fellow law abiding citizens.
By controlling the situation I mean stopping the crime or behaviour,
counter-intimidating aggressors, diffusing tensions or managing confrontations
between strangers, stopping violent fights, dealing with armed or potentially armed
people, etc.
These tools would include:
Non-verbal communication skills and techniques - eye contact, breathing techniques,
posture, stance.
Principles or mantas
Action triggers and training
NLP frames or anchors
Fear and anxiety control exercises
Breathing techniques
Communications and assertion skills
Observation techniques & good proactive witnessing
Self-defence techniques
I would like to create a general how to on what to do in a variety of scenarios
ranging from an escalating row on the tube between two commuters to witnessing a
violent crime in which you may be victimised yourself.
The idea is not necessarily to create a "worst case scenario" type document. Such a
document is all but useless in the situation itself. I would like to assemble some
general advise that will serve well in any situation. The focus is on overcoming
fear, being a useful witness, shoring up ones resolve to act and if possible stop
the behaviour or crime.
Ref. Zero Tolerance, Civil Society, Letwin's "Beyond the Causes of Crime" [
http://www.cps.org.uk/letwin.pdf ],
Advice from: Lamplugh Trust, police, military, psychological studies, personal tips
etc.
Regards
Jonathan
ratnophobia
"limbic" <limb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a7du8a$kog3l$1...@ID-58787.news.dfncis.de...
Number one: Don't go into chip shops after closing time !!!
two: Don't use public transport under 'any' circumstances.
Hotblack Desiato
well, I spend a lot of time in London and use most forms of public transport
on a virtually daily basis .. I have yet to witness a violent incident in my
day to day to-ing and fro-ing from London, much less be the victim of one.
Most of the violent incidents that I encounter are in Guildford on a Friday
or Saturday night. I don't feel that there is much in the way of
non-physical influence that you can use in these situations .. By the time
most on-lookers notice a situation has gone horribly pear shaped, it's way
beyond the point of no return anyway. It doesn't help that the people
involved are probably pissed and that the British pub culture involves a lot
of males standing in a semi-circle trying to look hard
Magrathea
limbic <limb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:a7du8a$kog3l$1...@ID-58787.news.dfncis.de...
Imo one valuable thing you can do is find out and gain insight into
the nature psychopathy..Psychopaths constitute 1% of the
population but commit 50% of all crime
It is a fascinating disorder, and some insight into it can give you a 'scale'
to use. Most people simply aren't expecting or ready for the degree
of unreasonableness or cold heartedness that a psychopath
can display casually and without fear or hesitation..Normal people are 9
times out of 10 so morally *stunned* by the unexpected behaviour of
these people, that they can't act. Finding out about this can also fit you
with a valuable 'nut radar' Most people aren't a problem at all, they will
behave 'reasonably' and attempt to avoid physical conflict, even if very
drunk..It is that crucial 1% that is important..and these people do very
often have easily recognisable characteristics.
Psychopaths don't respond predictably to anything..though the threat
of overwhelming force is probably more likely to work than say 'being
reasonable'..which may well get you nowhere...(not fashionable, I know but
as far as I can make out it seems to be the case)
If you find out all about psychopathy, you probably wont want
to go out much any more ;-)
One book that I hear is worth reading
http://www.hare.org/
Michael Syn
> Non-verbal communication skills and techniques -
> eye contact, breathing techniques, posture, stance.
Study gorillas.
> Action triggers and training
> NLP frames or anchors
An anchor that fires off a "conflict resource state", triggers using
peripheral vision, and steady breathing also helps.
> Fear and anxiety control exercises
> Breathing techniques
In through the nose, out through the mouth...a little more than medium depth
breathing and using my peripheral vision have done well for me in the past.
> Communications and assertion skills
I've seen people effectively use the "strong, silent, psycho" approach, the
"crazy, loud, psycho" approach, the "loudmouth talking smack approach" (not
against a group as it would force action in order to save face), and the
"pathetic, don't hurt me" approach.
Depends on the context and congruence, I'd say.
> Observation techniques & good proactive witnessing
Peripheral awareness (visual & kino) is real important here.
A guy named John LaTourrette (martial artist who is also an NLPer and PhD in
Sports Psych among other things) has done a lot of work in this area. I
have learned a lot about wiring in effective responses to threat situations
from him. And a lot of other stuff too.
> Self-defence techniques
Carry a Real Big Glock.
In the US at least, physical altercations almost guarantee a lawsuit if you
have resources (read: money or property) to take. Big, tough guys turn into
"permanently damaged victims" in court if they find out someone who isn't a
pauper bruised them in Self Defense.
In my opinion, a gun (deployed lawfully) is a much better alternative as it
will scare most off without having to become physically violent. Those it
doesn't scare off are mostly not the people you'd want to face without a
gun...so it is win-win. ;-)
And this isn't just for civilians.
An ex-cop friend of mine told me about his training to become a police
officer. His class was told that lawsuits against cops by people who *were
guilty of crimes and had to be restrained physically* had gotten so bad that
it was preferable to shoot a person in a non-lethal place. Apparently the
likelihood of lawsuits decrease significantly largely because witness
accounts are less likely to be confused by an ugly scuffle and degrees of
force exerted *during a stressful, confusing stuggle.* And to add to the
benefit list, the officer is much less likely to be injured.
Go figure.
The above assumes you take the time to be properly trained, of course.
And, of course, the best self-defense technique is "run away" if you have
the opportunity. But if you don't or can't, and you aren't prepared, it is
no ones fault but your own.
Personally, I miss the days when I could club someone in the nose and not
worry about them sicking lawyers on me. I'd happily rid the earth of them
second only to politicians. ;-)
Michael
dormouse
news:T0Om8.5890$GI5.2...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
>
[snip]
> And, of course, the best self-defense technique is "run away" if you have
> the opportunity. But if you don't or can't, and you aren't prepared, it
is
> no ones fault but your own.
[snip]
Alternatively, try to avoid situations and places where you may find
yourself needing to 'run away'. In Jonathan's case this means don't catch
the wrong train and end up in New Cross at 2am. ;-)
--
dormouse
dormouse5166 at yahoo dot co dot uk
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limbic
"Michael Syn" <syn...@NOSPAMHERE.cymetrix.com> wrote in message
news:T0Om8.5890$GI5.2...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
Thank you for a most interesting post.
John
<sorr...@this.isn't.real> wrote:
>"Michael Syn" <syn...@NOSPAMHERE.cymetrix.com> wrote in message
>news:T0Om8.5890$GI5.2...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
>>
>
>[snip]
>
>> And, of course, the best self-defense technique is "run away" if you have
>> the opportunity. But if you don't or can't, and you aren't prepared, it
>is
>> no ones fault but your own.
>
>[snip]
>
>Alternatively, try to avoid situations and places where you may find
>yourself needing to 'run away'. In Jonathan's case this means don't catch
>the wrong train and end up in New Cross at 2am. ;-)
What's wrong with New Cross ?
I was born there and the gang I was in never felt threatened by
ANYBODY after 2am
John
dormouse
news:3c9c5029...@news.btopenworld.com...
> On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:56:35 -0000, "dormouse"
> <sorr...@this.isn't.real> wrote:
>
> >"Michael Syn" <syn...@NOSPAMHERE.cymetrix.com> wrote in message
> >news:T0Om8.5890$GI5.2...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
> >>
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >> And, of course, the best self-defense technique is "run away" if you
have
> >> the opportunity. But if you don't or can't, and you aren't prepared,
it
> >is
> >> no ones fault but your own.
> >
> >[snip]
> >
> >Alternatively, try to avoid situations and places where you may find
> >yourself needing to 'run away'. In Jonathan's case this means don't catch
> >the wrong train and end up in New Cross at 2am. ;-)
>
> What's wrong with New Cross ?
What's right with it? Dirty, smelly, congested, it reminds the casual
visitor of a WW2 bombsite that was never rebuilt. At 2am with 'The Venue'
kicking out and gangs of yobs hiding up the side streets ready to prey on
anyone who gets seperated from the crowd it's not a very healthy place to be
...
> I was born there and the gang I was in never felt threatened by
> ANYBODY after 2am
LOL I'll slink back to Greenwich then with my tail between my legs ... :-)
Steve Glynn
Best advice I ever heard (from a police officer) was "don't look or feel
like a victim".
My wife and I both grew up in cities where physical violence is not exactly
unheard of, particularly after closing time. We're both of us complete
physical cowards ("I'm not going to the dentist! I'm not and you can't
make me!!") but both of us know we could -- and, more importantly know we
would if necessary -- do very serious harm if we had to, even though I'd
rather give someone my wallet than put his eyes out, and probably would.
What Anna knows she could do, despite her nervous and gentle disposition, if
someone tried to rape her, does not bear thinking about, and we're neither
of us exactly Bruce Lee.
It may be coincidental, but we've rarely either of us been that often
harassed by street criminals. When we have, it's sometimes been too quick
to do anything about it (handbag snatch from behind -- hers, not mine,
before anyone asks) but face to face we've most often we've both of us been
able to see them off peacfully.
To use my native version of Mummerset, being able to come out with "Nay,
lad. Thaat's not on. Now joost thee bugger off then" and knowing you can
back it up if you have to, does tend to deter most street criminals, not
that I often encounter them.
Steve
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John
<sorr...@this.isn't.real> wrote:
>"John" <jo...@btinternet.con> wrote in message
>news:3c9c5029...@news.btopenworld.com...
>> On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:56:35 -0000, "dormouse"
>> <sorr...@this.isn't.real> wrote:
>>
>> >"Michael Syn" <syn...@NOSPAMHERE.cymetrix.com> wrote in message
>> >news:T0Om8.5890$GI5.2...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
>> >>
>> >
>> >[snip]
>> >
>> >> And, of course, the best self-defense technique is "run away" if you
>have
>> >> the opportunity. But if you don't or can't, and you aren't prepared,
>it
>> >is
>> >> no ones fault but your own.
>> >
>> >[snip]
>> >
>> >Alternatively, try to avoid situations and places where you may find
>> >yourself needing to 'run away'. In Jonathan's case this means don't catch
>> >the wrong train and end up in New Cross at 2am. ;-)
>>
>> What's wrong with New Cross ?
>
>What's right with it? Dirty, smelly, congested, it reminds the casual
>visitor of a WW2 bombsite that was never rebuilt. At 2am with 'The Venue'
>kicking out and gangs of yobs hiding up the side streets ready to prey on
>anyone who gets seperated from the crowd it's not a very healthy place to be
>...
And its bad points are....?
limbic
"Steve Glynn" <steve...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:AZZm8.2041$km3.3...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> Best advice I ever heard (from a police officer) was "don't look or feel
> like a victim".
Absolutely spot on. The attitude leads, the rest follows. A very good post. Thanks
Steve.
Regards
JD
Steve Glynn
At the Girls' High School the city where I grew up, Karate was one of the
sports on offer, as was skiing. On one school skiing trip some lads who'd
been trying to chat up the girls earlier tried (drink, I rather suspect,
having been taken) tried to force their way into the room of three of the
girls, one of whom was captain of the school Karate team.
The teacher leading the party, on being informed of this the following
morning, wanted to know which blow or hold she'd used. Rather
shamefacedly, the girl admitted she'd not had time to think, so she'd just
kneed one of them in the balls and then head butted him while swearing at
the top of her voice, but it seemed to work quite well, and it discouraged
his friends, too.
T' lasses from my part o' t' world pride themselves on their feminity but
know they wasn't so much born as quarried when they 'as to be, like, an t'
lads know it too.
Steve
sally jenessen
appearance to the outside world will automatically follow suit.
S.J.
"limbic" <limb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a7hvti$l3hio$1...@ID-58787.news.dfncis.de...
Dan Scorpio
<snip>
> These tools would include:
>
> Non-verbal communication skills and techniques - eye contact,
breathing techniques,
> posture, stance.
> Principles or mantas
> Action triggers and training
> NLP frames or anchors
>
>
'A Teaching Seminar With Milton H Erickson', but I can't find the
particular page) is that in dealing with groups of people, he would
always (and subtly) prevent them acting as a collective against him by
challenging and destroying their use of collective pronouns ('we',
'us') such as to cause them to frame/behave as (relatively weak)
INDIVIDUALS rather than as a (strong by dent of number) group.
As for general language patterns - and presuppositions are
particularly powerful in word (and in assumed demeanour as one or two
other posters have indicated) - you won't find much better info than
in:
'Patterns of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton H Erickson MD Volume 1'
(Bandler & Grinder)
[PS Interesting to see you in a.p.nlp Lord L!]
Mind Control Manipulation Master
limbic wrote in message ...
>City dwellers sometimes find themselves in situations where they witness
crimes or
>anti-social activity carried out by gangs or anti-social individuals. In
these
>situations a large number of people are often intimidated, passively
witness crimes
>and vandalism or flee when faced with the anti-social behaviour or threats
of
>relatively small groups or even an individuals.
I think that is an emminently reasonable behaviour under those
circumstances.
>
>The reasons for this behaviour are complex and have been explored in depth
>elsewhere.
Right. Poverty. Boredom. Chain of violence.
>
>I am seeking to list mental tools, recommendations, psychological tricks or
other
>methods that an individuals in such situations can use to control the
situations and
>protect themselves and their fellow law abiding citizens.
Well, you are being very ambiguous here. First you talk about passively
witnessing the usual violent shenanigans that go on in every reasonable size
town and city in the world.
Then you switch to 'control ... protect'. If you are a passive witness, then
I don't understand why you need to protect yourself. If the cops turn up,
you can tell them what you saw. I have, and so do most people.
Usually, most city violence just play's itself out. If it is of small
consequence, then the violent parties may sustain some injuries, but nothing
further happens.
Whenever a situation starts to get out of hand, anybody with the means (eg.
mobile phone) to call the Police or a security company will generally do so.
After all, if they didn't then that would be the beginning of a breakdown of
society.
OK, so the next situation that you would need to 'protect or control' would
be one of say a gang of bored drunk juveniles looking to start a fight. That
is a completely different situation from watching 'push come to shove' at
the other end of the train carriage.
For that kind of situation I recommend using a physical method of what
someone else has already described in another post. That is, turning the
'group' into individuals. This can follow a limited number of patterns, as
most of this kind of intimidation/violence follows one of three patterns.
1. The weak bait/ strong switch. This pattern is when a weaker/smaller
member of the group tries to provoke some kind of 'reaction' from the
'target'. When the target responds with weakness, it is a signal for the
strongest member of the group to attack.
There are two ways to respond to this.
The first is if the distance is reasonable, completely ignore it. The cat
calls will get louder and more abusive as the self-esteem of the weaker
members of the group diminish, but they will not find the courage to attack
unless you respond with weakness or in kind.
If the distance is close, the next tactic is the strong response. This can
either be a strong verbal command, or a physical action. For example, I was
once out on a Friday night by myself, and I was a little tranced out with
'highway stare'. As I was passing a group on teenagers, one of them goaded
me with "What are you looking at?" a typical bait. I turned and said in
almost a shout, "AN ABSOLUTE NOTHING, MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS". It
completely diffused the situation, because the reason animals hunt in packs
is because they are cowards who are afraid of being hurt. If they pick a
strong target, then even though they would eventually defeat their target,
there is a chance they would sustain an injury in the process, so groups
will pass on targets that give them any resistance, and look for an easier
target to take out their pathetic sexual frustration on.
Note: For this reason, aggresive individuals are much more dangerous than
groups or gangs. Because they know their own strength and are looking to use
it on someone.
The physical response is a little more dramatic. I've never used it myself,
but a lad I knew when I was young was a very accomplished "king hitter".
Mind you, that's all he could do. If a fight went beyond the first punch he
was toast. But he was able to diffuse some dangerous situations by taking
one guy out cold with a single hit. This understandbly had a terrible effect
on the morale of the attackers, who usually dispersed soon after.
2. The strong bait/switch.
OK, this is a dangerous situation, and generally can only be avoided rather
than controled. It is a situation where a group or gang has one very strong
member who is also extremely aggresive. Personally, I can 'feel' this type
of situation. I don't know how ... maybe years of practise picking up subtle
clues just before fights broke out or someone was attacked.
As sick as it sounds, actually witnessing the lead-up to violent events can
provide very good training as to how to pick them. There was a time when I
would go into a pub with mates and after being there for about 20 minutes,
say to one of my mates, "In about half an hour there will be a fight between
that guy and that guy." and sure enough, off it would go.
Believe it or not, there is nothing random about 99% of violence. Violent
and potentially violent people, situations, events and environments take on
*very* obvious non-verbal signs after you have been observing life in the
city for a while.
Once you know the signs, it is actually quite easy to avoid violence nearly
all the time.
>
>By controlling the situation I mean stopping the crime or behaviour,
>counter-intimidating aggressors, diffusing tensions or managing
confrontations
>between strangers, stopping violent fights, dealing with armed or
potentially armed
>people, etc.
You know, that would be a fairly stupid thing to do for the un-trained
citizen to do. I mean, all good citizens could be issued with Uzi 9mm , but
as far as the untrained go, I say teach them how to spot the fairly obvious
signs of violent people and situations and remove themselves as quickly as
possible.
On the other hand, if you are talking about training un-armed security
officers how to take control of violent situations, then I would only teach
verbal and psychological methods once they had learned how to physically
deal with violent people. Consider 4 conditions leading to violence.
1. Drugs or Alcohol - Diminished reasoning capacity, higher pain threshold,
lowered inhibition to act out violent thoughts and fantasies. I don't think
you really want to be 'NLPing' these people. Simply do what cops are trained
to do. Shout them down. Use a very loud, authoratarian, command tone of
voice. Repeat the command again and again. If they refuse respond, hit them
hard on the knees or elbows with a baton.
2. Extreme violent personality - Someone who was beaten by their
father/uncle, was continuously in fights at school, fights every weekend at
the pub and usually wins. In other words, a bruiser. Only at the highest
level of skill will you dissuade this type of person with voice and body
language. Generally, you simply teach people to have the good sense to avoid
these type of people.
3. Jealous rage - Do you really want to step in the way of someone who is
going out to find his wife's lover and stick a knife in him. Have you had
this happen to someone you know? I have. And the guy who did it was in a
murderous rage. Doing ANYTHING other than some form of extreme violence
would just get yourself injured or killed.
4. Turf battles - These go on all the time. Why get involved unless it your
turf someone is taking. The violence very rarely spreads beyond the two
sides who are competing, so the average citizen is not at risk.
There are some less violent situations in which you can utilize all of the
techniques you mention below.
>
>These tools would include:
>
>Non-verbal communication skills and techniques - eye contact, breathing
techniques,
Try to lower your voice. Also, having a "reserve" of lung power so you can
really talk LOUD without it sounding like you are shouting (which indicates
fear).
>posture, stance.
Back straight, head up. Do not look at the ground. You need to know what's
going on at all times, in all situations where there is a threat.
>Principles or mantas
Principle 1: All violence is based on some kind of fear. The hope of the
violent person is that the outcome of the violence will alleviate some fear
that they have. If you can diffuse the fear, you can diffuse the violence.
>Action triggers and training
>NLP frames or anchors
>Fear and anxiety control exercises
Very important.
>Breathing techniques
See above. I recommend
- training the voice through low 'ummmmm'
- training the heart rate through breathing tempo. Do this by measuring your
heart rate, then varying your breathing rate.
>Communications and assertion skills
- Descriptions of consequences of actions.
- Stalling tactics (good when someone has already called the cops)
>Observation techniques & good proactive witnessing
- Vitally important. In situations where there are groups of people,
practise observing facial guestures, breath muttering, body language like
clenching of fist or gritting teeth. Observe signs of jealousy or envy. With
groups of young men, notice if they point someone out then exchange
profanities. Look for loudmouths, and those who watch them.
Notice any subcultures around you. For example skin-heads in one corner of
the room and head-bangers in the other corner.
Look particularly for individuals that seem to inspire fear from the people
around them. These people are particularly dangerous.
After a while, the noticing the signs of violence and moving somewhere else
will become second nature to you.
>Self-defence techniques
High-heel on the instep of the foot.
Kick in the balls.
Poke in the eyes.
Palm to the throat.
>
>I would like to create a general how to on what to do in a variety of
scenarios
>ranging from an escalating row on the tube between two commuters to
witnessing a
>violent crime in which you may be victimised yourself.
I think the appropriate response in most situations is to call on someone in
authority. They will have some training, and if it gets out of hand, they
can escalate it to the next level.
I don't like the idea of having to train everyone in society on how to
control or diffuse violence. I think that just makes a more violent society.
By putting it in the right context, i.e. it's criminal behaviour, then that
just leaves assertiveness and self control to the individual.
>
>The idea is not necessarily to create a "worst case scenario" type
document. Such a
>document is all but useless in the situation itself. I would like to
assemble some
>general advise that will serve well in any situation.
> The focus is on overcoming fear
this is worthwhile
>, being a useful witness,
This is extremely worthwhile.
> shoring up ones resolve to act and if possible stop
>the behaviour or crime.
>
Without sounding melodramatic, this would have to include some kind of
combat training. There is absolutely no way you want to put yourself in the
middle of a dangerous situation without the knowhow and whitherall to take
full control of the situation if it escalates into an attack on your person.
Kind Regards,
Master Mind Control Manipulator
Founder of Mind Control Cult
http://mcc.hundred-monkey-software.com
Steve Glynn
"sally jenessen" <goh...@lite.com> wrote in message
news:a7ikk5$ppe$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Develop the attitude that you will seek revenge if necessary; your
> appearance to the outside world will automatically follow suit.
> S.J.
>
No, no, you've got it back to front. Anyone who's ever played rugby will
tell you that you should get the retaliation in first.
Steve
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Jonathan Bratt
<sorr...@this.isn't.real> writes
>"Michael Syn" <syn...@NOSPAMHERE.cymetrix.com> wrote in message
>news:T0Om8.5890$GI5.2...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
>>
>
>[snip]
>
>> And, of course, the best self-defense technique is "run away" if you have
>> the opportunity. But if you don't or can't, and you aren't prepared, it
>is
>> no ones fault but your own.
>
>[snip]
>
>Alternatively, try to avoid situations and places where you may find
>yourself needing to 'run away'. In Jonathan's case this means don't catch
>the wrong train and end up in New Cross at 2am. ;-)
Huh? Or the other one?
--
Jonathan Bratt
Jonathan Bratt
Glynn <steve...@ntlworld.com> writes
>
>>
>
>Best advice I ever heard (from a police officer) was "don't look or feel
>like a victim".
>
Very good advice. If in any kind of situation where danger might present
itself, a determined looking walk avoiding any kind of eye contact is
advisable. Dawdling along using mobile phone late at night is OTOH not
advisable.
A pretended inability to speak English can also help. Repeating the 'Ash
nazg durbatuluk' bit from Lord of the Rings while throwing up hands in
puzzlement has done the trick for me more than once.
--
Jonathan Bratt
dormouse
news:S$06VMB2x...@moseley1.demon.co.uk...
Not you, the former Lord Limbic.
Jonathan Bratt
<sorr...@this.isn't.real> writes
>"Jonathan Bratt" <Jona...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:S$06VMB2x...@moseley1.demon.co.uk...
>> In article <7GOm8.8456$51.250591@wards>, dormouse
>> <sorr...@this.isn't.real> writes
>> >"Michael Syn" <syn...@NOSPAMHERE.cymetrix.com> wrote in message
>> >news:T0Om8.5890$GI5.2...@typhoon.southeast.rr.com...
>> >>
>> >
>> >[snip]
>> >
>> >> And, of course, the best self-defense technique is "run away" if you
>have
>> >> the opportunity. But if you don't or can't, and you aren't prepared,
>it
>> >is
>> >> no ones fault but your own.
>> >
>> >[snip]
>> >
>> >Alternatively, try to avoid situations and places where you may find
>> >yourself needing to 'run away'. In Jonathan's case this means don't catch
>> >the wrong train and end up in New Cross at 2am. ;-)
>>
>> Huh? Or the other one?
>> --
>> Jonathan Bratt
>
>Not you, the former Lord Limbic.
As the original Jonathan, I think that Jonathan TPFKALL should be used
for the other one. Any guesses?
--
Jonathan Bratt
hjkl
<steve...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>Best advice I ever heard (from a police officer) was "don't look or feel
>like a victim".
Exactly.
When you have 'predator' written all over you, there aren't many who
will bother you. And this doesn't have anything to do with size. A
racoon weighs maybe 25 pounds, but nobody goes after one bare-handed.
One time I was accosted by a panhandler and he started on the 'I don't
want to resort to crime' bullshit that's supposed to make you think
you had better just pay him. I wasn't up to it that day, so I started
considering how I would hurt him badly. The effect in my mind was kind
of like setting the crosshairs between his eyes. He automatically
stepped back 2 or 3 steps even though I had not made any overtly
threatening signals. That was the end of it.
Gavin DeBecker (author of 'The Gift of Fear') has good insight into
this. People (and other animals) have a very deeply embedded insinct
to survive, and will pick up on anything threatening to them. It
doesn't have to be obvious.
Having said that, I avoid such situations like the plague.
Steve Glynn
"hjkl" <hj...@hjkl.com> wrote in message
news:3ca21fc5....@news.itd.umich.edu...
My wife, who is by nature very gentle and quite nervous, once found herself
in a very similar situation at our local tube station, where a lot of
druggies and panhandlers hung out, when we lived in London.
One of them there once asked her for money, and when she refused, he pulled
a knife on her. She'd had a difficult week at work, had just suffered the
horrors of a journey across London during the rush hour, and was generally
in a foul mood.
The way she tells it, something just clicked, and she thought "how dare he?
I work bloody hard for my money, and no little shit is going to take it off
me". She then, as she puts it, "turned into mum when one of us kids had
dpme something really bad", and advanced on the man, eyes blazing, waving
the dreaded finger (guaranteed to reduce her and her siblings to complete
terror in childhood) and shouting "how dare you pull a knife on me!", along
with some words and threats I doubt her mum would have used.
He dropped his knife and ran off. Having seen her blow her top a few
times, I can fully understand this. Doesn't happen often, but when it
does I'm probably the only man in the world who can stop her, and, even
then, I'm rather unnerved by this Valkyrie (sp?) someone's temporarily
substituted for my wife,
However, since she then stalked back to the flat with mureder in her heart,
poured herself several stiff drinks, and spent most of the weekend in tears,
I fully agree it's best to avoid such situations.
hjkl
<steve...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>[..] The way she tells it, something just clicked, and she thought "how dare he?
>I work bloody hard for my money, and no little shit is going to take it off
>me". [..]
>He dropped his knife and ran off.
Good for her!!
The mad soapbox
> the nature psychopathy..Psychopaths constitute 1% of the
> population but commit 50% of all crime>
Where did you get your figures from? 1% of the population? And if
psychopaths commit 50% of all crime, then who commits (most of) the
other 50%?
>
> It is a fascinating disorder, and some insight into it can give you a 'scale'
> to use. Most people simply aren't expecting or ready for the degree
> of unreasonableness or cold heartedness that a psychopath
> can display casually and without fear or hesitation
Wrong again! Most people I've ever known (be it a physical or any
other sense) fit this criteria - gain pleasure out of other people's
pain :o(
..Normal people are 9
> times out of 10 so morally *stunned* by the unexpected behaviour of
> these people, that they can't act.
**********************************
Because they are so used to dishing it out, but catch them without
their cronies and give it back it shows what shitbags most of them
are. They are *stunned* because they are so full of their own
importance and believe that they are above any retribution - cocky
bastards.
If you find out all about psychopathy, you probably wont want
> to go out much any more ;-)
*********************
Politicans, clergymen, government bodies, townies - the majority of
people that I've ever known are fuckin psychopaths!
ps the inner-city populations are mainly wannabe gangsters - does that
make them psychopaths too?
Adam Sargant
news:7bc81ade.02033...@posting.google.com...
<snip>
> Wrong again! Most people I've ever known (be it a physical or any
> other sense) fit this criteria - gain pleasure out of other people's
> pain :o(
Most people fit some of the diagnostic criteria for psychopathy, as most
people fit some of the diagnostic criteria for the various psychoses (a
delusion is simply a belief, but taken to extremes and with disturbing
behavioural consequences)
> ..Normal people are 9
> > times out of 10 so morally *stunned* by the unexpected behaviour of
> > these people, that they can't act.
> **********************************
> Because they are so used to dishing it out, but catch them without
> their cronies and give it back it shows what shitbags most of them
> are. They are *stunned* because they are so full of their own
> importance and believe that they are above any retribution - cocky
> bastards.
IMO, both interpretations are inadequate - psychopathic behaviour scares
people, not because they don't understand it, but because they do. (Also
rather inadequate and simplistic, but it fits my model better :-)
> If you find out all about psychopathy, you probably wont want
> > to go out much any more ;-)
> *********************
> Politicans, clergymen, government bodies, townies - the majority of
> people that I've ever known are fuckin psychopaths!
Certainly, my personal observation is that the more succesful a person is in
their profession or in society in general, the greater the likelihood that
they fit more of the diagnostic criteria. But it is not a given.
Adam
--
"You can analyse the past but you have to design the future"
Edward de Bono
Adam Sargant
news:a897m3$pkt9u$1...@ID-75919.news.dfncis.de...
> delusion is simply a belief, but taken to extremes and with disturbing
> behavioural consequences)
Should have added that the disturbing bit is the difficulty other people
have. My behaviour makes complete sense to me in the context of my delusions
:-)
Rick Lay
choice controls the system." In all of the replies to this post, the
potential victim simply accessed another choice that overpowered the
potential attacker into not having a counter choice.
In a presentation or training situation, I let the anti-social person make a
fool of themselves and "bruise their own ego" by asking them "What is your
intent with this kind of behavior?" and "Are you here to learn or distract
everyone else from learning?"....then maybe some META Model if the person is
really AD or into foolish banter.... All this is happening while with my
physiology, I walk closer to him and look him in the eye. My intent
focuses the audience attention on anti-social person, and either gets them
to shut up or leave the presentation.
in article S$06VMB2x...@moseley1.demon.co.uk, Jonathan Bratt at
The mad soapbox
> news:7bc81ade.02033...@posting.google.com...
> <snip>
> > Wrong again! Most people I've ever known (be it a physical or any
> > other sense) fit this criteria - gain pleasure out of other people's
> > pain :o(
>
> Most people fit some of the diagnostic criteria for psychopathy, as most
> people fit some of the diagnostic criteria for the various psychoses (a
> delusion is simply a belief, but taken to extremes and with disturbing
> behavioural consequences)
>
> > ..Normal people are 9
> > > times out of 10 so morally *stunned* by the unexpected behaviour of
> > > these people, that they can't act.
> > **********************************
> > Because they are so used to dishing it out, but catch them without
> > their cronies and give it back it shows what shitbags most of them
> > are. They are *stunned* because they are so full of their own
> > importance and believe that they are above any retribution - cocky
> > bastards.
>
> IMO, both interpretations are inadequate - psychopathic behaviour scares
> people, not because they don't understand it, but because they do. (Also
> rather inadequate and simplistic, but it fits my model better :-)
Psychopathic behaviour does NOT scare most people - they see it as a
challenge, a bid to enhance their own status. When you say it
"scares" them, it is essentially no different to sitting your exams
for your PHD in crimonology. The same kind of adrenaline buzz. It is
informally, as top put it a 'test', to show your peers and your bird
what you are made of cos respect is won and lost based on how well you
handled a street fight in the hard and fast rule of the city centre
jungle.
> > If you find out all about psychopathy, you probably wont want
> > > to go out much any more ;-)
> > *********************
> > Politicans, clergymen, government bodies, townies - the majority of
> > people that I've ever known are fuckin psychopaths!
>
> Certainly, my personal observation is that the more succesful a person is in
> their profession or in society in general, the greater the likelihood that
> they fit more of the diagnostic criteria. But it is not a given.
>
> Adam
*******
Just look at the Kray twins - 99% of cockneys and townies the length
and breadth of the UK supported them - unless of course they were
rivals after their status.
dr no
> City dwellers sometimes find themselves in situations where they witness crimes or
> anti-social activity carried out by gangs or anti-social individuals. In these
> situations a large number of people are often intimidated, passively witness crimes
> and vandalism or flee when faced with the anti-social behaviour or threats of
> relatively small groups or even an individuals.
>
> elsewhere.
>
I have used mainly two methods of dealing with such people, and both
methods have have worked quite well for me in similar situations. Im
talking about people that use intimidation as their primary social
disposition. I believe that such people have developed a threatening
demeaner for primarily one of two reasons:
-either they lack the social skills to communicate with people in a
more diplomatic way.
-or they have had so much success with threatening people that it has
become a no-brainer approach for them (remember: people are basically
lazy and will usually opt for the easy way - so intimidaters often do
so because it works well for them).
Now my preference has always been for diplomacy, but where that fails,
I would either:
-go off on a complete tangent, and then leave them hanging as I walk
away calmly - I might say something like "Hmm, Ketchup on toast -
that's disgusting" and then walk - this has never failed me in any
situation Ive opted to use it - it can have a rather stunning effect
when you absolutely refuse to take them seriously - but thats not to
say I would use this method in all cases - if I dont see that "stunned
look" I may opt to run but I have rarely found that necessary.
-the second approach, and I would be more likely to use this if I felt
like I was "backed into a corner," is simply to be a "better psycho"
than them. My thoughts are that if the "silent quiet type" (which
describes me well most of the time) were to all the sudden "go
apeshit" - this really freaks people out most of the time - but you
need to have a good poker face - so usually after Ive put on my best
"psycho trip," Im looking for hesitatation on their part - if I see
hesitation on their part, I know I got them - that's when the chairs
start flying because I want them to know that I will make good on my
threats (this method has only failed me only once but it has worked 19
times out of 20).
In the end it all comes down to your sensory acuity, knowing what you
are capable of, and your acting ability. As to my second approach, the
basic premise is this: any bloody fool can wield a gun, but it is a
rare person that actually has the wherewithall to pull the trigger. It
seems to work for me but I credit that mostly to my sensory acuity as
it relates to the level of threat I am facing. There is also something
to be said for acting - if you play the role good enough, people will
believe it!