Q. What's the 'most interesting thing' that can be done with plain html ?
Jim Jones
I've not been keeping up on the latest and greatest in html.
Let's say that a certain provider does not allow .asp, or cgi stuff to
be developed on one's own account.
Does that mean that the web author is then limited to only
html on their account ?
Do you know of a site where the author so limited has done some really
cool things ?
Do you have examples of such pages both with AND without javascript ?
Thanks,
Jim
Chris Beall
news:juu7jv0t2nas88nrb...@4ax.com...
Jim,
The coolest thing you can do is provide interesting content. Plain text
is fine for 90% of what is on the web. For the next 10% you add images.
What HTML adds is the ability to have hypertext links, so each chunk of
information can point to other interesting chunks, ad infinitum. If
done right, this adds value because the interesting stuff is now more
accessible (um, I'm NOT talking about disability here).
CSS adds some style and pizzazz, but seldom contributes to content value
enhancement.
IMHO, everything after that is fluff, 99% of the time. (The other 1% is
animation as a teaching aid, which you almost never see on the web.)
Examples are rare. Appropriately, the HTML and CSS specifications
aren't bad.
Chris Beall
Tina - AffordableHOST.com
>
> I've not been keeping up on the latest and greatest in html.
<blink> Hrmmm...nice layout and good content? </blink>
--Tina
http://www.AffordableHOST.com
20% Discount Code: newsgroup
Serving the web since 1997
spaghetti
> Do you have examples of such pages both with AND without javascript ?
Oh look! Beautiful sites designed with HTML and CSS (styling for HTML). No
Javascript even. Take a look at
http://www.mezzoblue.com/zengarden/alldesigns/
:)
e n | c k m a
>
> Oh look! Beautiful sites designed with HTML and CSS (styling for HTML). No
> Javascript even. Take a look at
> http://www.mezzoblue.com/zengarden/alldesigns/
>
> :)
>
I've got a question regarding that site...
Why are those topic headers (ie. "The road to enlightenment") background
images and not at least normal images or HTML headings? This can't be good
for accessibility, can it? With no alt/title text and all?
Or did I miss something somewhere saying that using background images as
headings were the greatest thing since sliced bread?
Nick.
Jukka K. Korpela
> I've got a question regarding that site [css Zen Garden] ...
> Why are those topic headers (ie. "The road to enlightenment")
> background images and not at least normal images or HTML headings?
They _are_ HTML headings, namely h1 and h2 elements. But an author who
contributes his CSS design can use CSS properties to make an image appear
in place of the text, in order to create the desired look for the
headings.
> This can't be good for accessibility, can it?
It isn't. The page does not work (i.e., the headings are not visible) when
CSS is enabled and images are disabled.
The css Zen Garden demonstrates practical CSS styling at present, rather
than in an ideal situation. It's very difficult to create esthetically
highly impressive look if you use just the font properties in CSS,
especially if you don't regard "Web fonts" (WEFT) as a reasonable option.
But anyone can try to create his own proposal to the Garden. Nobody forces
you to use the technique that replaces heading text by a background image.
You could try to write a font-family declaration with a carefully selected
list of fonts, aiming at suiting your overall design.
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
Pages about Web authoring: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
Isofarro
> "spaghetti" <spag...@aspyre.net> wrote...
>>
>> Oh look! Beautiful sites designed with HTML and CSS (styling for HTML).
>> No Javascript even. Take a look at
>> http://www.mezzoblue.com/zengarden/alldesigns/
>>
>> :)
>>
>
> I've got a question regarding that site...
> Why are those topic headers (ie. "The road to enlightenment") background
> images and not at least normal images or HTML headings?
It uses the Fahrner Image Replacement technique.
> This can't be good
> for accessibility, can it?
The original technique had some accessibility problems, but that has
recently been resolved. See
<http://www.isolani.co.uk/blog/access/AccessibleFahrnerImageReplacement>
> Or did I miss something somewhere saying that using background images as
> headings were the greatest thing since sliced bread?
Might have. Here's a source:
<http://www.digital-web.com/features/feature_2003-08.shtml>
--
Iso.
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Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org/
e n | c k m a
> e n | c k m a wrote:
>
> > Or did I miss something somewhere saying that using background images as
> > headings were the greatest thing since sliced bread?
>
> Might have. Here's a source:
> <http://www.digital-web.com/features/feature_2003-08.shtml>
>
>
interesting! thanks for the links!
Nick.
Headless
>It uses the Fahrner Image Replacement technique.
>
>> This can't be good
>> for accessibility, can it?
>
>The original technique had some accessibility problems, but that has
>recently been resolved. See
><http://www.isolani.co.uk/blog/access/AccessibleFahrnerImageReplacement>
>
>> Or did I miss something somewhere saying that using background images as
>> headings were the greatest thing since sliced bread?
>
>Might have. Here's a source:
><http://www.digital-web.com/features/feature_2003-08.shtml>
Maybe I'm missing the point, but I don't understand what all the fuss is
about. Most of this stuff is years old.
One problem I haven't seen mentioned on what I've read: an imo
fundamental part of CSS is that it suggests style, thus leaving the user
free to override those stylistic suggestions. CSS background images as
intended/devised are not part of the flow, therefore a user who wants a
high contrast display (due to preference, or due to being visually
impaired) should be able to switch off background images in a user
stylesheet .
The FIR hack causes background images to appear as part of the flow,
images which are not decorative but content are suddenly coded as
background images, thereby depriving users of the option to switch off
decorative images that are not in the flow without also loosing images
that are content.
Headless
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Jukka K. Korpela
> The original technique had some accessibility problems, but that has
> recently been resolved.
I didn't take a very close look, but I did not find a solution to the
problem that when CSS is enabled and images are disabled, using background
image and suppressing text display does not work well.
nice.guy.nige
<ti...@affordablehost.com> feverishly typed:
> "Jim Jones" <harley....@mailcity.com> wrote in message
> news:juu7jv0t2nas88nrb...@4ax.com...
>> Hi.
>>
>> I've not been keeping up on the latest and greatest in html.
>
>
> <blink> Hrmmm...nice layout and good content? </blink>
<marquee>Evil Tina! Baaaaaad Tina! ;-)</marquee>
Cheers,
Nige
--
Nigel Moss.
Email address is not valid. ni...@nigenetDOG.org.uk. Take the dog out!
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"How strange the change from major to minor..."
Isofarro
> Isofarro <spam...@spamdetector.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> The original technique had some accessibility problems, but that has
>> recently been resolved.
>
> I didn't take a very close look, but I did not find a solution to the
> problem that when CSS is enabled and images are disabled, using background
> image and suppressing text display does not work well.
Hmmm... Ian Lloyd over at accessify.com agrees with you there:
<http://www.accessify.com/archives/2003_08_03_news-archives.asp#106016107246297283
>
Andy Dingley
<harley....@mailcity.com> wrote:
>Do you know of a site where the author so limited has done some really
>cool things ?
I've always liked this:
http://www.scottmccloud.com/comics/icst/icst-1/icst-1.html
Sadly
http://www.scottmccloud.com
seems to have turned into a pile of javascript bugs instead
l
Kris
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkor...@cs.tut.fi> wrote:
> > The original technique had some accessibility problems, but that has
> > recently been resolved.
>
> I didn't take a very close look, but I did not find a solution to the
> problem that when CSS is enabled and images are disabled, using background
> image and suppressing text display does not work well.
Will someone give Tom Gilder a medal then?
<http://blog.tom.me.uk/2003/08/07/gilder_image_transform_technique.php>
--
Kris
kris...@xs4all.netherlands (nl)
"We called him Tortoise because he taught us" said the Mock Turtle.
Jukka K. Korpela
>> I didn't take a very close look, but I did not find a solution to the
>> problem that when CSS is enabled and images are disabled, using
>> background image and suppressing text display does not work well.
>
> Will someone give Tom Gilder a medal then?
> <http://blog.tom.me.uk/2003/08/07/gilder_image_transform_technique.php>
Maybe. I didn't see a demo there, and the markup sample lacks the crucial
class attribute, but the idea is apparently to use positioning so that an
element with empty content but a background image is laid over the text,
and it seems to work.
Zak McGregor
<spam...@spamdetector.co.uk>> wrote:
>> Or did I miss something somewhere saying that using background images
>> as headings were the greatest thing since sliced bread?
>
> Might have. Here's a source:
> <http://www.digital-web.com/features/feature_2003-08.shtml>
Wow, this must rank as the *stupidest* use of CSS yet. The highlighted
portion of that document is chilling, in a very disturbing way. How the
authors do not immediately recognise all the pitfalls of this technique is
beyond me.
"A note from a graphic designer to coders and accessibility and usability
experts who still don't get it: You may try telling us that image-based
text is against what the Web is about, but that's blindly ignoring our
needs, and the last time that happened the Web ended up with spacer.gifs
and table hacks. Image is what pays us, and it pays well. Work with us,
and we can create a better Web for everyone."
Smacks of arrogance as well.
Why do we have to fight cluelessness at every turn?
Ciao
Zak
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