Question about Brust's _Dragon_ (spoilers!)
Sean Eric Fagan
Okay, I just read this last night. Now I have a question: did I read it
wrong, or did he set Spellbreaker up to be part of a triad with Pathfinder and
Godslayer? And it's a _her_?
Jo Walton
> Really. Spoilers.
What I thought that Serioli said was that there was a weapon called
Godslayer which was Pathfinder and Spellbreaker together.
What do we already know about Godslayer that I've forgotten? I've
heard the name somewhere before.
--
Jo - - I kissed a kif at Kefk - - J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk - Blood of Kings Poetry; rasfw FAQ;
Reviews; Interstichia; Momentum - a paying market for real poetry.
Ravi Duvvuri
Jo Walton (J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <F1qDC...@kithrup.com> s...@kithrup.com "Sean Eric Fagan" writes:
: > Really. Spoilers.
: What I thought that Serioli said was that there was a weapon called
: Godslayer which was Pathfinder and Spellbreaker together.
: What do we already know about Godslayer that I've forgotten? I've
: heard the name somewhere before.
Vlad uses it to kill the goddess (I forget her name) in A Dream Of Passion.
I haven't finished 'Dragon' yet, but the part about Godslayer being
Pathfinder and Spellbreaker is a bit odd, as Spellbreaker is quite distinct
from Godslayer in ADOP. And seems to be at least somewhat intelligent.
-r
Ha Nguyen
: In article <F1qDC...@kithrup.com> s...@kithrup.com "Sean Eric Fagan" writes:
: > Really. Spoilers.
: >
: > Okay, I just read this last night. Now I have a question: did I read it
: > wrong, or did he set Spellbreaker up to be part of a triad with Pathfinder and
: > Godslayer? And it's a _her_?
: What I thought that Serioli said was that there was a weapon called
: Godslayer which was Pathfinder and Spellbreaker together.
: What do we already know about Godslayer that I've forgotten? I've
: heard the name somewhere before.
It was mentioned in _Yendi_ as a Great Weapon along with Pathfinder. It
was an off-hand mention and gave the impression that Godslayer already
existed.
--
Ha
Kate Nepveu
: In article <F1qDC...@kithrup.com> s...@kithrup.com "Sean Eric Fagan" writes:
:> Really. Spoilers.
Spoilers.
:> Okay, I just read this last night. Now I have a question: did I read it
:> wrong, or did he set Spellbreaker up to be part of a triad with Pathfinder and
:> Godslayer? And it's a _her_?
: What I thought that Serioli said was that there was a weapon called
: Godslayer which was Pathfinder and Spellbreaker together.
No. Pathfinder is separate. Spellbreaker and Godslayer are linked
somehow.
: What do we already know about Godslayer that I've forgotten? I've
: heard the name somewhere before.
It's in the short story "A Dream of Passion" which is on the net.
One of my questions I was going to post, well, after the election when I
have time to breathe is whether "ADoP" is still canon.
Kate
--
http://www.concentric.net/~knepveu/ - The Paired Reading Page; Reviews
"In your head, no car is fast enough; in your heart, no love is true
Would it ruin all your solitary fancies if I tell you that it isn't
only you?" --Emma Bull, "For It All"
Louann Miller
>
> In article <F1qDC...@kithrup.com> s...@kithrup.com "Sean Eric Fagan" writes:
>
> > Really. Spoilers.
> > Okay, I just read this last night. Now I have a question: did I read it
> > wrong, or did he set Spellbreaker up to be part of a triad with Pathfinder and
> > Godslayer? And it's a _her_?
And resolving an old debate, 'she' is specifically described as both
changing in length and changing size of chain links. Vlad doesn't know
what this means, but seems used to it so apparently she's done it all
along. I always did think that 2 ft of chain was a bit skimpy for a
weapon.
Remember the sentient garotting cord that Corwin's son Merlin had in the
(groan) second set of Amber books?
--
Updated 9/28/98! Media fan fiction at http://www.cyberramp.net/~millers
Monty Ashley
[Spoilers removed, leaving only tantalizing glimpses of the unknown]
: One of my questions I was going to post, well, after the election when I
: have time to breathe is whether "ADoP" is still canon.
I don't think it is. It doesn't seem to match up with _Dragon_ at alll.
-Monty
Sean Eric Fagan
Louann Miller <lou...@mail.smu.edu> wrote:
>> > Really. Spoilers.
>> > Okay, I just read this last night. Now I have a question: did I read it
>> > wrong, or did he set Spellbreaker up to be part of a triad with Pathfinder and
>> > Godslayer? And it's a _her_?
>And resolving an old debate, 'she' is specifically described as both
>changing in length and changing size of chain links. Vlad doesn't know
>what this means, but seems used to it so apparently she's done it all
>along. I always did think that 2 ft of chain was a bit skimpy for a
>weapon.
Well, it was a convenient way to work around inconsistencies without resorting
to the "Vlad isn't as smart as he thinks he is" approach :).
One other question that occurred to me: are the Great Weapons made by a
Serioli smith sacrificing his (or her, in the case of Spellbreaker :)) own
life? That's what occurred to me when the Serioli said referred to Blackwand
and Spealbreaker with genders, and as people.
Andrew Plotkin
>
> One other question that occurred to me: are the Great Weapons made by a
> Serioli smith sacrificing his (or her, in the case of Spellbreaker :)) own
> life? That's what occurred to me when the Serioli said referred to Blackwand
> and Spealbreaker with genders, and as people.
I'm suddenly desperately curious to know what would happen if Vlad had
clubbed someone to death with Aliera, back when she was a stick.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
Damien R. Sullivan
>Really. Spoilers.
>
>Okay, I just read this last night. Now I have a question: did I read it
>wrong, or did he set Spellbreaker up to be part of a triad with Pathfinder and
>Godslayer? And it's a _her_?
I can't even find _Dragon_ in San Francisco, so I hate you all. But I thought
"Godslayer" was called "Godkiller".
But checking ADoP on my web site gives 'Godslayer'. Was it always that in the
previous books and my memory is gone? (It has been mentioned before...
Iceflame, as powerful as God(killer|slayer) or the Orb.)
-xx- Damien X-)
Louann Miller
(spoilers largely gone)
> One other question that occurred to me: are the Great Weapons made by a
> Serioli smith sacrificing his (or her, in the case of Spellbreaker :)) own
> life? That's what occurred to me when the Serioli said referred to Blackwand
> and Spealbreaker with genders, and as people.
What a very cool concept. I wouldn't be surprised if you weren't right.
But please Verra, no cranky-old-teacher lecturing weapons like Lackey's
Need in the last few books where it appeared.
Courtenay Footman
>It's in the short story "A Dream of Passion" which is on the net.
--
Courtenay Footman I have again gotten back on the net, and
c...@lightlink.com again I will never get anything done.
(All mail from non-valid addresses is automatically deleted by my system.)
Kate Nepveu
: Kate Nepveu (kne...@concentric.net) wrote:
How long-lived are the Seroli? Do they consider "soon" something
different than what "ADoP" seems to imply?
And is "ADoP" eventually going to become _The Final Contract_? =>
Kate Nepveu
: Sean Eric Fagan (s...@kithrup.com) wrote:
:> One other question that occurred to me: are the Great Weapons made by a
:> Serioli smith sacrificing his (or her, in the case of Spellbreaker :)) own
:> life? That's what occurred to me when the Serioli said referred to Blackwand
:> and Spealbreaker with genders, and as people.
: I'm suddenly desperately curious to know what would happen if Vlad had
: clubbed someone to death with Aliera, back when she was a stick.
*splutter*choke*
Oh gawd, usually sf.written is pretty safe to read while eating...
Ravi Duvvuri
: >It's in the short story "A Dream of Passion" which is on the net.
: OK. Where?
It can be found on the Dragaera page:
http://www.math.ttu.edu/~kesinger/brust/adop.html
It does take place at some point in the indeterminate future, and there are
a number of things revealed, so you may or may not want to read it.
-r
Damien Neil
>I can't even find _Dragon_ in San Francisco, so I hate you all. But I thought
>"Godslayer" was called "Godkiller".
Have you tried City Lights? I've only been once or twice, but their
selection seemed good.
I found my copy at the Printer's Ink in Palo Alto.
>But checking ADoP on my web site gives 'Godslayer'. Was it always that in the
>previous books and my memory is gone? (It has been mentioned before...
>Iceflame, as powerful as God(killer|slayer) or the Orb.)
My memory is saying Godslayer, but I don't have my books here to crosscheck.
Somehow "Godslayer" seems more generic to me. "Godkiller" has a less
refined edge to it, which I like. I suspect Dragaerans would go for
the former.
- Damien
Jake Kesinger
: >
: >It's in the short story "A Dream of Passion" which is on the net.
: OK. Where?
Several places. Try
http://www.math.ttu.edu/~kesinger/brust/adop.html
==Jake ``I really need to update the rest'' K.
Damien R. Sullivan
>>Really. Spoilers.
>I can't even find _Dragon_ in San Francisco, so I hate you all. But I thought
Green apple, large used bookstore: no Dragon.
Fantasy Etc., hole in the wall SF store: no Dragon.
Stacey's, large indie, looks like Barnes and Noble: no Dragon. And says it
isn't out yet.
Alexander Book Company: hole in the wall general bookstore: has it, and says
they've had it since the 21st.
I read it last night, too. I liked it... I'm not sure if I liked it as much
as _Orca_. But it's jumping to a pre-Teckla Vlad, and playing with the
narration again. And Orca had Kiera narrating a third, which was very cool.
I got enough new metaphysics -- Morrolan's window, Great Weapon stuff -- to
be disturbed, and not enough to be happy with. (I know the window was in
ADoP.) Spellbreaker was declared to be related to the Great Weapons, which
makes me happy, since I called that a long time ago*. The Serioli basically
said that humans came from the stars, which isn't new information, but was
nice to see again.
And there was the irony of a quasi-dwarf telling an elf that a human was one
of the Old Ones. Although *that* raises a question: are the Serioli
indigenes, or more experiments of the Jenoine?
The ending seemed weak; I'm not sure I can say why.
* My idea for _Dzur_: the Jhereg get Vlad with a Morganti blade; Spellbreaker
and Sethra Lavode save him, and much of the book is Vlad resting at Dzur
Mountain while she tells him stories.
I'll re-state my grand theory of Dragaera: that it's a _Lord of Light_
situation, where the Jenoine were actually humans, or at least Earth-descended
intelligences, obviously with far more toys than the Easterners have ever
dreamed of. Vlad was right in _Jhereg_: the Dragaerans are related to
Easterners, at least in being based on the same genetic stock (Homo sapiens
terrestrialis).
The original Jenoine were unscrupulous godlings, but it's a quarter of a
million years later. The ones Sethra fights off might actually be people
seeking to bring Dragaera back into interstellar civilization -- but that'd
threaten the Cycle, so Sethra keeps them away. Which makes her partly
responsible for the conditions of the Teckla and Easterners. Which leads to
an interesting idea for the Final Contract...
-xx- Mindstalker X-)
For no cage was ever made to hold a creature such as he,
No chain was ever forged to bind the wind.
And when I think upon all the scars he left on me,
The cruelest are the ones I bear within.
Chad R Orzel
Ahhh....
"What're you afraid of, Boss?"
"Shut up, Loiosh."
It's _good_ to have Vlad back...
OBLigatory Spoiler Warning:
Spoilers.
Duh.
First, some general comments:
>>I can't even find _Dragon_ in San Francisco, so I hate you all. But I thought
>
{list of stores not having it}
>Alexander Book Company: hole in the wall general bookstore: has it, and says
>they've had it since the 21st.
I think this is one of those "ship date vs. release date" things. Amazon
didn't ship my copy (to Japan) until a week or two after people were
gloating on-line about having purchased copies in stores. It showed up as
"not yet released by publisher" before then, suggesting one of those
situations where they _have_ the book, but just can't _sell_ the book...
I could be wrong, though, in which case I'm sure the nice folks at Tor
will correct me.
General Review: I liked it a lot. Maybe not the best of the Vlad books
(that would depend on what kind of "best" you meant...), but a fine read.
Now the spoiler-ish stuff:
>I read it last night, too. I liked it... I'm not sure if I liked it as much
>as _Orca_. But it's jumping to a pre-Teckla Vlad, and playing with the
>narration again. And Orca had Kiera narrating a third, which was very cool.
Stylistically, this book is a little odd, and a good argument for not
reading the series in internal chronological order. In terms of internal
chronology, this book is either just after _Taltos_ or just days after
_Yendi,_ depending on how you want to handle the framing
(Vlad-as-narrator is telling the story just after _Yendi,_ but the
actions described occur shortly after _Taltos_), but the tone is a poor
match for either of those books. Vlad-in-_Dragon_ is a lot more pensive,
and maybe a little darker than Vlad-in-_Yendi,_ closer to
Vlad-in-_Phoenix_ or Vlad-in-_Orca,_ as publication order would suggest.
In many ways, though, this is a Good Thing. Part of this is, IMAO, a
reflection of a change in Brust's writing overall. There's more depth to
the later books, and it's handled more gracefully than some of his
earlier work. He's become a better writer.
And this isn't a story that could really be told in the exact same manner
as _Yendi_ or _Taltos._ Vlad's dealing with some darker issues than were
handled in those books, and the slightly more serious tone is a
reflection of that. And this would'nt fit well between _Taltos_ and
_Yendi,_ but is more acceptable after _Phoenix_ and _Orca_...
Which is not, of course, to say that Brust has turned into Glen Cook in
the interim. Vlad still, to continue to cop a phrase from someone else on
this newsgroup, "oozes panache." And there are all the comic and ironic
flourishes that I expect- nay, demand- from a Vlad Taltos novel...
"Just grand. I get myself into the army, stand up in battles I have
no business in, get nailed in the back by sorcery, accept an impossible
assignment to be carried out in the middle of it all, and then, just to
top things off, I have to go have a mystical fucking experience. This is
just great."
>I got enough new metaphysics -- Morrolan's window, Great Weapon stuff -- to
>be disturbed, and not enough to be happy with. (I know the window was in
>ADoP.)
The window's been in a couple of books, IIRC.
Spellbreaker was declared to be related to the Great Weapons, which
>makes me happy, since I called that a long time ago*. The Serioli basically
>said that humans came from the stars, which isn't new information, but was
>nice to see again.
The Serioli scene was very nice. The abstracted-academic debates about
the proper translations of the names of the Great Weapons was just
perfect- I can just see the Serioli creating Morganti weapons in a sort
of distracted-academic way to bring an end to war...
>And there was the irony of a quasi-dwarf telling an elf that a human was one
>of the Old Ones. Although *that* raises a question: are the Serioli
>indigenes, or more experiments of the Jenoine?
Dunno.
I'd guess that they were indigenous, but I can't quite nail down why I'd
say that. I'm going to have to re-read that passage a few times.
>The ending seemed weak; I'm not sure I can say why.
I thought it worked pretty nicely, actually.
>* My idea for _Dzur_: the Jhereg get Vlad with a Morganti blade; Spellbreaker
>and Sethra Lavode save him, and much of the book is Vlad resting at Dzur
>Mountain while she tells him stories.
I kind of lean toward the school of thought which says that the plot
revolves around Vlad acting like the animal (or House, if you prefer) of
the title. He had to think like a Yendi to solve _Yendi,_ like an Orca
accountant to work out the plot in _Orca,_ and behaved in a distinctly
Dragon-like manner in this most recent book.
_Dzur_ will have to have a plot calling for Vlad to be stubborn and
ferocious in some way, I suppose. Maybe the Organization gets desperate
and threatens his family in some way, and he flies into a rage? Dunno. I
suppose it might have something to do with Dzur Mountain, but not in as
sedentary a fashion as what you describe.
Makes me wonder what _Jheghaala_ could possibly be about, though...
Later,
OilCan
(Or _Chreotha_ for that matter...)
Christopher K Davis
> Stylistically, this book [_Dragon_] is a little odd, and a good
> argument for not reading the series in internal chronological order.
I have toyed with the idea of reading the series in *strict* internal
chronological order.
I mean *really* in order. Read the flashbacks in _Taltos_ (inserting
the _Jhereg_ prologue at the appropriate point), then the main story in
_Taltos_, then the description of the ritual in _Taltos_, and so on....
I then decided that I liked my brain better before it started leaking
out of my ears and set the idea aside.
--
Christopher Davis * <ckd...@ckdhr.com> * <URL:http://www.ckdhr.com/ckd/>
Put location information in your DNS! <URL:http://www.ckdhr.com/dns-loc/>
Alexei Kosut
> > argument for not reading the series in internal chronological order.
>
> chronological order.
>
> I mean *really* in order. Read the flashbacks in _Taltos_ (inserting
> the _Jhereg_ prologue at the appropriate point), then the main story in
> _Taltos_, then the description of the ritual in _Taltos_, and so on....
Don't forget about the first half of chapter two of _Yendi_, which
probably also belongs in _Taltos_. And so on... Brust messes with
chronology enough that I think there are more issues that are possible
to deal with. He uses the "oh, and by the way, I forgot to mention
that five days ago..." device a bit too often.
Actually, I thought it was kind of nice that Brust wrote the Vlad
novels in such a way that you *could* read them in internal
chronological order (_Taltos_, _Yendi_, _Jhereg_, etc...) without him
spoiling what comes after. Not that it's my suggested order. But now,
of course, _Dragon_ contains spoilers for _Yendi_ even though the
narrative (mostly) takes place directly after _Taltos_.
So I think Brust has decided that most of the people who are going to
have read the Vlad novels have read them. Either that, or he was
having too much fun playing with narrative structure. I suspect the
latter :)
-- Alexei Kosut <ako...@stanford.edu> <http://www.stanford.edu/~akosut/>
Stanford University, Class of 2001 * Apache <http://www.apache.org> *
Steven Brust
Thanks; glad you liked it.
>>And there was the irony of a quasi-dwarf telling an elf that a human was one
>>of the Old Ones. Although *that* raises a question: are the Serioli
>>indigenes, or more experiments of the Jenoine?
>Dunno.
>I'd guess that they were indigenous, but I can't quite nail down why I'd
>say that. I'm going to have to re-read that passage a few times.
That will be answered in ISSOLA.
-----
Steven Brust "Stealing blinds is a good way to
sk...@dreamcafe.com kill time between check-raises."
-- Adam Stemple
Jo Walton
sk...@dreamcafe.com "Steven Brust" writes:
> That will be answered in ISSOLA.
Will :Issola: be next?
Incidentally - this is aimed at other people - I wonder if "correct
Vlad reading order" could be, when they're finished, Cycle order?
It would probably be interesting anyway.
Louann Miller
> So I think Brust has decided that most of the people who are going to
> have read the Vlad novels have read them. Either that, or he was
> having too much fun playing with narrative structure. I suspect the
> latter :)
The whole multiple-flashback structure of the Vlad books impresses the
hell out of me. I've never been confused about when I was, which takes
some doing when it gets that complex.
What I really want, though, is "The Man in the Phoenix-Stone Mask" or
whatever the next Khaavren book is. Soon, please. Imagine me holding up
a cardboard sign at a traffic light: will beg for sequels.
John Moreno
> sk...@dreamcafe.com "Steven Brust" writes:
>
> > That will be answered in ISSOLA.
>
> Will :Issola: be next?
>
> Incidentally - this is aimed at other people - I wonder if "correct
> Vlad reading order" could be, when they're finished, Cycle order?
> It would probably be interesting anyway.
Hmn....
I'd certainly be willing to give that a try.
--
John Moreno
Kate Nepveu
: I have toyed with the idea of reading the series in *strict* internal
: chronological order.
: I mean *really* in order. Read the flashbacks in _Taltos_ (inserting
: the _Jhereg_ prologue at the appropriate point), then the main story in
: _Taltos_, then the description of the ritual in _Taltos_, and so on....
: I then decided that I liked my brain better before it started leaking
: out of my ears and set the idea aside.
I did this with _Dragon_. Really.
But to do this properly with the entire series would be... painful. I
suppose if you were willing to buy cheap copies and rip them up, it might
work...
My brain-leaking-out-my-ears idea on the series was putting together a
concordance, or a FAQ, or a timeline, or something. Gosh, very useful...
and yeah, I guess I should really update my languishing web pages, write
those law school application essays, and maybe finish designing that
database for work first...
Jake Kesinger
: In article <9a302.354$i63.1...@ptah.visi.com>
: sk...@dreamcafe.com "Steven Brust" writes:
: > That will be answered in ISSOLA.
: Will :Issola: be next?
: Incidentally - this is aimed at other people - I wonder if "correct
: Vlad reading order" could be, when they're finished, Cycle order?
: It would probably be interesting anyway.
Well, we can give part of it a try now, since the end of the Cycle
runs Yendi, Orca, Teckla, [Jhegaala], Athyra, and Phoenix (reborn).
And where do _Taltos_ and _The_Final_Contract_ fit in?
Interestingly, Issola is about as far from any of the other written-about
houses as it is possible to get in the cycle. It's three away from
Jhereg, and five away from Dragon. (Dzur, at four and four, is the
farthest; Hawk is five and three).
==Jake ``Teldra is an Issola, right?'' K.,
David Dyer-Bennet
> ==Jake ``Teldra is an Issola, right?'' K.,
Right. And featured prominently in chapter 4, which Steven read at
FlashBack last weekend.
--
David Dyer-Bennet d...@ddb.com
http://www.ddb.com/~ddb (photos, sf) Minicon: http://www.mnstf.org/minicon
http://ouroboros.demesne.com/ The Ouroboros Bookworms
Join the 20th century before it's too late!
Louann Miller
>
> kesi...@math.ttu.edu (Jake Kesinger) writes:
>
> > ==Jake ``Teldra is an Issola, right?'' K.,
>
> Right. And featured prominently in chapter 4, which Steven read at
> FlashBack last weekend.
***ENVY***
There are times when I even consider it might be worthwhile living in
Minnesota to be close to that batch of SF writers. I watch the Weather
Channel for a while, and it blows over.
Louann
Dallas
57 Farenheit
Kate Nepveu
: Jo Walton (J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: : In article <9a302.354$i63.1...@ptah.visi.com>
: : sk...@dreamcafe.com "Steven Brust" writes:
: : > That will be answered in ISSOLA.
: : Will :Issola: be next?
Hmmm... Vlad being smooth and courtly and, and, stuff.
This isn't really working for me--anyone else?
Failure of my own imagination, certainly.
(My first thought was trying to get Cawti back. But that doesn't seem to
be the right approach.)
: : Incidentally - this is aimed at other people - I wonder if "correct
: : Vlad reading order" could be, when they're finished, Cycle order?
: : It would probably be interesting anyway.
: Well, we can give part of it a try now, since the end of the Cycle
: runs Yendi, Orca, Teckla, [Jhegaala], Athyra, and Phoenix (reborn).
: And where do _Taltos_ and _The_Final_Contract_ fit in?
IIRC they're beginning and end.
I don't know, the list above seems like a recipe for serious cognitive
dissonance.
Graydon
Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Jake Kesinger <kesi...@math.ttu.edu> wrote:
>: Jo Walton (J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk) wrote:
>: : In article <9a302.354$i63.1...@ptah.visi.com>
>: : sk...@dreamcafe.com "Steven Brust" writes:
>: : > That will be answered in ISSOLA.
>: : Will :Issola: be next?
>
>Hmmm... Vlad being smooth and courtly and, and, stuff.
>
>This isn't really working for me--anyone else?
>
>Failure of my own imagination, certainly.
>
>(My first thought was trying to get Cawti back. But that doesn't seem to
>be the right approach.)
'Issola strikes from courtly bow', right?
Vlad _is_ Count Szurke, and he can (if he wants) show up at court, and
do his best to be polite.
It's not like he hasn't got some outstanding problems -- Savn, and the
other small problem of the persistence of the Jhereg in wanting him
dead. How he's going to finesse that I can't imagine, although it
seems unlikely that he is going to last all that much longer without
doing _something_ about why the Jhereg wants to kill him. Witchcraft
to make them all forget seems extravagant in scope, somehow.
--
"But how powerful, how stimulating to the very faculty which produced
it, was the invention of the adjective: no spell or incantation in
Faerie is more potent." -- "On Fairy-Stories", J.R.R. Tolkien
Chad R Orzel
Steven Brust <sk...@dreamcafe.com> wrote:
>oil...@wam.umd.edu (Chad R Orzel) wrote:
>
>
>
>Thanks; glad you liked it.
Thank you.
Glad you, um, care.
Or some sentiment along those lines, with wording that's less in the
"damning with faint praise" file.
>>>And there was the irony of a quasi-dwarf telling an elf that a human was one
>>>of the Old Ones. Although *that* raises a question: are the Serioli
>>>indigenes, or more experiments of the Jenoine?
>
>>Dunno.
>>I'd guess that they were indigenous, but I can't quite nail down why I'd
>>say that. I'm going to have to re-read that passage a few times.
>
>That will be answered in ISSOLA.
Which, I gather from other comments, would appear to be the Next Book?
Glad to hear there's more Vlad on the way...
Now I just wish I had the rest of the books with me, or could at least
rememebr the Cycle line for "Issola"...
Later,
OilCan
("Issola strikes from courtly bow"? Something like that...)
Jo Walton
gra...@gooroos.com "Graydon" writes:
> 'Issola strikes from courtly bow', right?
>
> Vlad _is_ Count Szurke, and he can (if he wants) show up at court, and
> do his best to be polite.
>
> It's not like he hasn't got some outstanding problems -- Savn, and the
> other small problem of the persistence of the Jhereg in wanting him
> dead. How he's going to finesse that I can't imagine, although it
> seems unlikely that he is going to last all that much longer without
> doing _something_ about why the Jhereg wants to kill him. Witchcraft
> to make them all forget seems extravagant in scope, somehow.
Why does it have to come next?
I mean, could it be set way later than :Orca: and after those problems
are sorted? Would that be cheating? Well, maybe, sort of, but it would
also be sort of interesting.
The other possibility, which would seem to be negated by the fact that
chapter 4 is about Lady Teldra, would be something in a Fenarian court
or something like that.
What _could_ he do for the Jhereg to get that forgotten?
P Nielsen Hayden
>In article <71u4hn$rft$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com>
> gra...@gooroos.com "Graydon" writes:
>
>> 'Issola strikes from courtly bow', right?
>>
>> Vlad _is_ Count Szurke, and he can (if he wants) show up at court, and
>> do his best to be polite.
>>
>> It's not like he hasn't got some outstanding problems -- Savn, and the
>> other small problem of the persistence of the Jhereg in wanting him
>> dead. How he's going to finesse that I can't imagine, although it
>> seems unlikely that he is going to last all that much longer without
>> doing _something_ about why the Jhereg wants to kill him. Witchcraft
>> to make them all forget seems extravagant in scope, somehow.
>
>Why does it have to come next?
>
>I mean, could it be set way later than :Orca: and after those problems
>are sorted? Would that be cheating? Well, maybe, sort of, but it would
>also be sort of interesting.
Could be. However, according to Steve, it comes next.
--
Patrick Nielsen Hayden : p...@panix.com : http://www.panix.com/~pnh
John Moreno
> gra...@gooroos.com "Graydon" writes:
>
> > 'Issola strikes from courtly bow', right?
> >
> > Vlad _is_ Count Szurke, and he can (if he wants) show up at court, and
> > do his best to be polite.
> >
> > It's not like he hasn't got some outstanding problems -- Savn, and the
> > other small problem of the persistence of the Jhereg in wanting him
> > dead. How he's going to finesse that I can't imagine, although it
> > seems unlikely that he is going to last all that much longer without
> > doing _something_ about why the Jhereg wants to kill him. Witchcraft
> > to make them all forget seems extravagant in scope, somehow.
>
> Why does it have to come next?
>
> I mean, could it be set way later than :Orca: and after those problems
> are sorted? Would that be cheating? Well, maybe, sort of, but it would
> also be sort of interesting.
>
> The other possibility, which would seem to be negated by the fact that
> chapter 4 is about Lady Teldra, would be something in a Fenarian court
> or something like that.
>
> What _could_ he do for the Jhereg to get that forgotten?
Take a majority of the Council out would be my guess (but that's
probably not it given the general feel of the last couple of books).
More likely I guess is to do something for the Empress and have her
declare him under Imperial protection -- not perfect (even Emperors have
been hit) but it might be enough to get them to lay off for a while.
--
John Moreno
Graydon
Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>In article <71u4hn$rft$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com>
> gra...@gooroos.com "Graydon" writes:
>> 'Issola strikes from courtly bow', right?
>>
>> Vlad _is_ Count Szurke, and he can (if he wants) show up at court, and
>> do his best to be polite.
>>
>> It's not like he hasn't got some outstanding problems -- Savn, and the
>> other small problem of the persistence of the Jhereg in wanting him
>> dead. How he's going to finesse that I can't imagine, although it
>> seems unlikely that he is going to last all that much longer without
>> doing _something_ about why the Jhereg wants to kill him. Witchcraft
>> to make them all forget seems extravagant in scope, somehow.
>
>Why does it have to come next?
It doesn't, but unless it's what happens _before_ Athyra, it's what's
got the greatest current amount of narrative pressure on it; there
aren't that many future stories to be told without resolving that
stuff, and it's something I'd expect to be tough enough without going
back and having to tell that story interestingly when the reader is
already aware of what happened. It's not like Vlad can go back to
being the Jhereg easily, after all; even if they'd have him, he'd not
likely want to be running an area.
>I mean, could it be set way later than :Orca: and after those problems
>are sorted? Would that be cheating? Well, maybe, sort of, but it would
>also be sort of interesting.
I don't think it would be cheating, so much as it would be incredibly
difficult -- where is the _next_ story? Well, depends on how those
two problems get solved, right?
>The other possibility, which would seem to be negated by the fact that
>chapter 4 is about Lady Teldra, would be something in a Fenarian court
>or something like that.
Maybe she travels.
>What _could_ he do for the Jhereg to get that forgotten?
Vlad does not actually have to make them forget; he just has to make
them think someone else has already hired an assassin this week, and
then bill them for the assassin's time through a third party.
Monty Ashley
: The other possibility, which would seem to be negated by the fact that
: chapter 4 is about Lady Teldra, would be something in a Fenarian court
: or something like that.
As long as there's plenty of Lady Teldra, I'm fine. I've always wondered
what she's doing while she waits for people to show up at Castle Black.
-Monty
ch...@my-dejanews.com
I agree.
> _Dzur_ will have to have a plot calling for Vlad to be stubborn and
> ferocious in some way, I suppose. Maybe the Organization gets desperate
> and threatens his family in some way, and he flies into a rage? Dunno. I
> suppose it might have something to do with Dzur Mountain, but not in as
> sedentary a fashion as what you describe.
I don't believe so.
IMAO, _Dzur_ will have a plot having Vlad take on impossible odds headfirst
with a ludicrous amount of courage (or "foolhardiness," if you prefer)...
......like trying to fight your way into the House of the Dzur, or...
...like 2 Dzur Heroes trying to fight off an invading army, or...
...taking on the Organization, alone...
(sotto voce) BatVlad, nah nah nah nah nah nah nah nah, BatVlad...
or better yet:
"Who knows what eveil lives in the hearts of elfs?"
"Noish-pa?"
"Shut up, Loiosh."
> Makes me wonder what _Jheghaala_ could possibly be about, though...
"Jhegaala shifts as moments pass." [the Cycle]
and
"Jhegaala - lives in swamps - starts as an egg, goes to moth, then large toad
- passes through a few other stages in between - represents metamorphosis."
[http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust.html]
My 2 cents: Vlad is either: A. constantly changing sides during the action of
the book, or B. completes his Hero's Journey a la Joseph Campbell.
> (Or _Chreotha_ for that matter...)
"Sly chreotha weaves his net." [the Cycle]
"Chreotha - large foxlike creature which uses its saliva to build a web strong
enough to ensnare a dzur, and sometimes a dragon - represents the trap."
[http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust.html]
My 2 cents: Vlad as the Shadow/Moriarty/Holmes, with a web of agents...
Ooohh... what's Khaavren's group called? Special Tasks? Hmmmmm. And where are
the Lavodes, dammit? :)
The fear that tickles the back of my mind: Has the Organization already hired
Mario to take out Vlad?
--
Chad Underkoffler [ch...@yahoo.com]
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/5751/index.html
"Hold your breath. Make a wish. Count to three."
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Louann Miller
> "Chreotha - large foxlike creature which uses its saliva to build a web strong
> enough to ensnare a dzur, and sometimes a dragon - represents the trap."
> [http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust.html]
>
> My 2 cents: Vlad as the Shadow/Moriarty/Holmes, with a web of agents...
>
> Ooohh... what's Khaavren's group called? Special Tasks? Hmmmmm. And where are
> the Lavodes, dammit? :)
Drat it, he *has* to run into Khaavren for more than that one short
scene. What if Vlad did something so useful to the Empire that the
Empress orders Special Tasks to protect him from the Jhereg?
I'm crossing my fingers for _Tiassa_. And maybe Aerich can appear in
_Lyorn._
Kate Nepveu
: In article <71toqs$h...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
: Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
[the next Vlad book will be ISSOLA]
:>Hmmm... Vlad being smooth and courtly and, and, stuff.
:>This isn't really working for me--anyone else?
:>Failure of my own imagination, certainly.
:>(My first thought was trying to get Cawti back. But that doesn't seem to
:>be the right approach.)
: 'Issola strikes from courtly bow', right?
And "vaguely storklike."
: Vlad _is_ Count Szurke, and he can (if he wants) show up at court, and
: do his best to be polite.
: It's not like he hasn't got some outstanding problems -- Savn, and the
: other small problem of the persistence of the Jhereg in wanting him
: dead. How he's going to finesse that I can't imagine, although it
: seems unlikely that he is going to last all that much longer without
: doing _something_ about why the Jhereg wants to kill him. Witchcraft
: to make them all forget seems extravagant in scope, somehow.
Here I've been salivating over the release of _Dragon_ all this time, have
had the book for about a month, and am already fidgeting over _Issola_.
But yeah, I will be really impressed to see Vlad get out of this.
ObLooney: Vlad finds Godslayer, makes it do the changing-sizes trick
Spellbreaker does, sneaks it into a Council meeting, bows, and...
Yes, it's been a really, really long week.
Steven Brust
>In article <9a302.354$i63.1...@ptah.visi.com>
> sk...@dreamcafe.com "Steven Brust" writes:
>> That will be answered in ISSOLA.
>Will :Issola: be next?
Yes.
Derek Tattersall
ch...@my-dejanews.com writes:
|>
|> The fear that tickles the back of my mind: Has the Organization already hired
|> Mario to take out Vlad?
|>
|>
You know, I had a thought about this. Hows this for a scenario:
House Jhereg hires Mario Greymist to off Vlad.
Mario is Aliera's lover right?
Aliera gets to Mario and has a "talk" with him.
Some time goes by.
House Jhereg goes to Mario and asks: "So when you going to off the easterner?"
Mario tells them these things take time.
50 more years pass.
One night Vlad, surrounded by friends and family, passes away in his sleep.
Mario goes back to House Jhereg and says, "The easterner's dead, pay me."
Everybody's happy
So what do you think sirs?
--
Derek Tattersall
tat...@planet.net
tat...@lucent.com
Graydon
Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
>[the next Vlad book will be ISSOLA]
>:>Hmmm... Vlad being smooth and courtly and, and, stuff.
>:>This isn't really working for me--anyone else?
>
>:>Failure of my own imagination, certainly.
>
>:>(My first thought was trying to get Cawti back. But that doesn't seem to
>:>be the right approach.)
>
>: 'Issola strikes from courtly bow', right?
>
>And "vaguely storklike."
Considering that no one expects Morrolan to either ruffle, nor to act
like he _can_ ruffle, his neck tentacles, I'm dubious that Vlad will
so much as stand on one foot.
>: It's not like he hasn't got some outstanding problems -- Savn, and the
>: other small problem of the persistence of the Jhereg in wanting him
>: dead. How he's going to finesse that I can't imagine, although it
>: seems unlikely that he is going to last all that much longer without
>: doing _something_ about why the Jhereg wants to kill him. Witchcraft
>: to make them all forget seems extravagant in scope, somehow.
>
>Here I've been salivating over the release of _Dragon_ all this time, have
>had the book for about a month, and am already fidgeting over _Issola_.
>But yeah, I will be really impressed to see Vlad get out of this.
I'm starting to think that the entire Jhereg is going to think someone
is hired to off him when in fact no such thing is the case. It's
either that or fake his death to a degree of convincingness I can't
imagine that he could achieve.
>ObLooney: Vlad finds Godslayer, makes it do the changing-sizes trick
>Spellbreaker does, sneaks it into a Council meeting, bows, and...
>
>Yes, it's been a really, really long week.
Vlad is going to use Godslayer, if the Ad Astra chapbook short is
still cannon. But the day is not yet, and he didn't appear to
recognize the thing.
Besides, it wouldn't do him a bit of good to kill the Council, and
some harm; it's not that the Council wants him dead, it's the whole of
the Jhereg for turning Imperial Witness. (and surviving long enough
to do so, come to that.) Now, maybe only a few of them know, and he
can kill all of them, but I really doubt that this is the case, Vlad
must be getting notorious.
Graydon
Derek Tattersall <tat...@planet.net> wrote:
>In article <71vnv9$nep$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
> ch...@my-dejanews.com writes:
>> The fear that tickles the back of my mind: Has the Organization
>> already hired Mario to take out Vlad?
>
>You know, I had a thought about this. Hows this for a scenario:
>
>House Jhereg hires Mario Greymist to off Vlad.
>Mario is Aliera's lover right?
>Aliera gets to Mario and has a "talk" with him.
>Some time goes by.
>
>House Jhereg goes to Mario and asks: "So when you going to off the
>easterner?"
>Mario tells them these things take time.
>50 more years pass.
>One night Vlad, surrounded by friends and family, passes away in his
>sleep.
>Mario goes back to House Jhereg and says, "The easterner's dead, pay
>me."
>
>Everybody's happy
No, everyone isn't happy, because it will become obvious that Mario
doesn't want to do it and Vlad died of his age. (which is not a given
thing, either, since if Kieron comes out of the Paths of the Dead,
something essential about the Cycle is going to happen, and Vlad is
going to be involved. His mortality is thus dubious.)
Now, Mario might refuse the job, and they might start to have serious
trouble getting someone to try to kill Vlad after awhile, but I don't
think a history of being lucky is the way to impress the Jhereg;
people will keep trying, just becuase they want the reputation for
succeeding.
So it's going to have to be something very clever indeed.
Jake Kesinger
: Jo Walton <J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk> wrote:
: > What _could_ he do for the Jhereg to get that forgotten?
: More likely I guess is to do something for the Empress and have her
: declare him under Imperial protection -- not perfect (even Emperors have
: been hit) but it might be enough to get them to lay off for a while.
Heck, Vlad himself took out a guy under Imperial protection (one of the
flashbacks in _Taltos_).
==Jake
Derek Tattersall
gra...@gooroos.com (Graydon) writes:
|>
|> No, everyone isn't happy, because it will become obvious that Mario
|> doesn't want to do it and Vlad died of his age. (which is not a given
|> thing, either, since if Kieron comes out of the Paths of the Dead,
|> something essential about the Cycle is going to happen, and Vlad is
|> going to be involved. His mortality is thus dubious.)
|>
I don't know about that. It was established early in the series that
a good assassin won't accept any time limits on his job. And no other
member of House Jhreg would accept the commission if they knew it
had been given to Mario. Mario's reputation is so formidable that
I don't think any questions would be asked if it takes him some time
to set up the job. And 50 or 60 years is a pretty short time to an elf
after all.
|> Now, Mario might refuse the job, and they might start to have serious
|> trouble getting someone to try to kill Vlad after awhile, but I don't
|> think a history of being lucky is the way to impress the Jhereg;
|> people will keep trying, just becuase they want the reputation for
|> succeeding.
|>
|> So it's going to have to be something very clever indeed.
Well that's a given. We are talking about Steven Brust after all.
John Moreno
I was thinking of something a little more substantial than was the case
then (honorary member of the royal family or something).
--
John Moreno
Kate Nepveu
: In article <7203t1$g...@chronicle.concentric.net>,
: Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
:>[the next Vlad book will be ISSOLA]
:>Here I've been salivating over the release of _Dragon_ all this time, have
:>had the book for about a month, and am already fidgeting over _Issola_.
:>But yeah, I will be really impressed to see Vlad get out of this.
: I'm starting to think that the entire Jhereg is going to think someone
: is hired to off him when in fact no such thing is the case. It's
: either that or fake his death to a degree of convincingness I can't
: imagine that he could achieve.
Indeed, especially if he intends to stay in elf society.
Oh well. He'll come up with something.
:>ObLooney: Vlad finds Godslayer, makes it do the changing-sizes trick
:>Spellbreaker does, sneaks it into a Council meeting, bows, and...
:>Yes, it's been a really, really long week.
: Vlad is going to use Godslayer, if the Ad Astra chapbook short is
: still cannon. But the day is not yet, and he didn't appear to
: recognize the thing.
: Besides, it wouldn't do him a bit of good to kill the Council, and
: some harm; it's not that the Council wants him dead, it's the whole of
: the Jhereg for turning Imperial Witness. (and surviving long enough
: to do so, come to that.) Now, maybe only a few of them know, and he
: can kill all of them, but I really doubt that this is the case, Vlad
: must be getting notorious.
*sigh* Either my "I'm being silly" signals aren't coming through well, or
I'm just not being that silly... At this point, it could be either.
David Goldfarb
)
)Mario tells them these things take time.
)
)50 more years pass.
)
)One night Vlad, surrounded by friends and family, passes away in his sleep.
It's not clear that even 50 years would be enough for this.
In _Brokedown Palace_ an Easterner who uses sorcery (as a Teckla, even)
manages to live for a couple hundred years -- and does *not* die of
natural causes.
--
David Goldfarb <*>| "Oh, death from on high. Neat."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu |
aste...@slip.net | -- Tom Servo, Mystery Science Theater 3000
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | "Gamera"
vla...@erols.com
> It's not clear that even 50 years would be enough for this.
> In _Brokedown Palace_ an Easterner who uses sorcery (as a Teckla, even)
> manages to live for a couple hundred years -- and does *not* die of
> natural causes.
*flips through his copy of _BP_* Which easterner is this?
--
"He is your friend, your partner, your defender,
your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader.
He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last
beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy
of such devotion."
-- Unknown
"Drinking is the joy of the Russes. We cannot exist without that
pleasure."
- St. Vladimer, 988 a.d.
TO EMAIL ME please remove the 001 put there to deter spam mailers.
Kate Nepveu
[snip comments on quality/style/tone of novel which I fully agree with]
Hmm... no "How 'bout if you do the killing and I do the irony?" .sig for
this post. So much for my planned followup quote "Let Loiosh make the
wisecracks, Kragar. He's better at them."
(You'd think Loiosh would've rubbed that comment in, too.)
Anyway, general stuff I haven't seen adddressed elsewhere.
Spoilers.
_Meta-Series Stuff_
* At what point are the other narrated books told?
The events of _Taltos_ were narrated immediately after they took place.
(Also note that Vlad's tape recorder doesn't seem to have an erase/insert
function--or maybe he just didn't feel like going back and finding the
right place to talk about the embarassing ritual at Deathgate Falls.)
_Dragon_ happened just after Vlad finished talking about _Taltos_, but
wasn't narrated until just after _Yendi_, about three years later. There
are hints that _Yendi_ gets narrated after _Dragon_, but it's not clear.
Was Vlad not talking about anything during those three years? Or are
there more prequels that we may see come out in translation in the future?
I'm in the process of re-reading the later books to see if there are any
hints about when they were told. My memory of the timeline is sadly
fuzzy, and I can't recall if Vlad would've been able to finish them before
he went on the run, or if he told them while in hiding. I suspect the
first, just because we don't see any more tape recorder books after
_Phoenix_.
And who puts in chapter titles and the dry-cleaning bills? Vlad, or
Brust-as-translator? (It seems chapter breaks are Vlad. Which makes me
wonder if he's doing the 17 thing on purpose.)
As a side note, the book design is very nice; it's a pity about the 288
pages, though. =>
* The Seroli and the Great Weapons
We have another source saying that Easterners were imported as controls.
This has already been discussed a bit, but: Pathfinder, Spellbreaker,
Godslayer. Pathfinder was meant to find gods, Spellbreaker and Godslayer
together to kill them (Spellbreaker "isn't entirely here" and is likely
meant to be united somehow with Godslayer). Further, when Pathfinder is
found, Godslayer is "likely to turn up."
Aliera thinks that Pathfinder was trying to get to her. Why does she
think that? If she's right, why her? (She's not looking to commit a spot
of matricide, is she?) And when is Godslayer showing up? "A Dream of
Passion" indicates several years, but that doesn't mention Pathfinder at
all (apparently Brust has stated it's no longer canon?). Does Kieron fit
into this somehow?
* "Vlad acts like title House"
No question about it.
"...in the confusion of the dream I tried to explain that I deserved to be
admitted as a Dragon, and [the gods] just couldn't stop laughing.... I
woke up in the middle of the night in a sweat, breathing hard, and
shaking."
Of course, the moral/identity issues that are eventually going to come up
and bite Vlad on the ass are sitting out in the open here, but as we're in
prequel-ville, they're just sitting, waiting.
_Specific Book Issues_
* War
After the first battle:
"Of all the things I could have said I was--hurt, damaged, destroyed,
demolished, ruined--she'd asked the one to which I had to answer 'No.'"
With Morrolan:
"Are you prepared to strike another blow for freedom?"
"Is that what we're doing?"
"No, but it sounds better than helping a wealthy and powerful aristocat
maintain his wealth and power."
I was saying about moral issues waiting to bite Vlad?
Soldiers always want to stop the slaughter. Morrolan and Aliera aren't
soldiers; is Sethra? Are any Dragons we've met? Doesn't seem like it.
Sethra's comments about the defender starting the war were interesting. I
know precisely zero about military theory or tactics, but those discussed
here seemed plausible.
* The Necromancer
Vlad is... having an out-of-body experience? Discovering a new form of
psionic communication, one which your familiar doesn't notice?
What, exactly, is the Necromancer? She seems to be more than your
garden-variety undead, but beyond that...
Vlad thinks [in another book] she did the wounded dragon portrait in
Morrolan's castle, which sounds awfully like the one in _The Phoenix
Guards_. She isn't Kathana, is she? Is Vlad or Paarfi confused?
* Odds and Ends
Why _don't_ your ears pop when you teleport up?
Aliera has _brown_ eyes on page 65, which may be a first. Presumably this
is Vlad's memory playing tricks on him.
Start of Chapter 1: "No shit, there I was..."
End of Chapter 16: "Well, here you are." "No shit."
"My little hairy testicle"=="A young man tells his beloved of his love for
her" is a... cultural... thing. Uh-huh.
And when is _Issola_ coming out? (Joke, that was a joke...)
Derek Tattersall
gold...@OCF.Berkeley.EDU (David Goldfarb) writes:
|> In article <720723$c...@news3.newsguy.com>,
|> Derek Tattersall <tat...@planet.net> wrote:
|> )One night Vlad, surrounded by friends and family, passes away in his sleep.
|>
|> It's not clear that even 50 years would be enough for this.
|> In _Brokedown Palace_ an Easterner who uses sorcery (as a Teckla, even)
|> manages to live for a couple hundred years -- and does *not* die of
|> natural causes.
|>
Okay, so it takes 200 years. Are _you_ going to be the guy who tries to
rush Mario?
John Moreno
> As a side note, the book design is very nice; it's a pity about the 288
> pages, though. =>
Isn't there some way to count it as 289 (haven't read the book yet).
--
John Moreno
Kate Nepveu
: Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
:> As a side note, the book design is very nice; it's a pity about the 288
:> pages, though. =>
: Isn't there some way to count it as 289 (haven't read the book yet).
Not without counting one of the end pages and not the other three, there
isn't. Page 1 is the title page, page 288 is the end of Brust's bio.
Julie Stampnitzky
> There are times when I even consider it might be worthwhile living in
> Minnesota to be close to that batch of SF writers. I watch the Weather
> Channel for a while, and it blows over.
>
> Louann
> Dallas
> 57 Farenheit
Only 57? Bah, as Tazendra would say.
--
Julie Stampnitzky
Rehovot, Israel [today's high: 27 C/80 F]
homepage: http://www.yucs.org/~jules
Darkover site: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Rampart/8275
Graydon
Derek Tattersall <tat...@planet.net> wrote:
>Okay, so it takes 200 years. Are _you_ going to be the guy who tries to
>rush Mario?
Why are you willing to assume that Mario would compromise his
professional ethics like that?
Helya, why are you willing to assume that Mario is a person and not a
job description?
Graydon
Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
>_Meta-Series Stuff_
>
>* At what point are the other narrated books told?
Not touching that with a stick, especially as one can argue that
Sethra is the meta-narrator for :Orca:. Ouch. Brain hurts.
>* The Seroli and the Great Weapons
>Aliera thinks that Pathfinder was trying to get to her. Why does she
>think that? If she's right, why her? (She's not looking to commit a spot
We _know_, from :Jhereg:, that's she's right. Pathfinder is in
whatever sense of meant is meant meant for Aliera e'Kieron.
Why her, well, we know two things; it's the start of the next Great
Cycle, since Zerika is a reborn Phoenix, and the Cycle is broken.
(it's also the Great Cycle of the Dragon, which ought to be good for a
lot of astrological nervousness.)
If any of the instigators of the experiment of Empire are around, they
are surely concerned about the 'broken' part; we can also safely
assume that Aliera's conception and embodiement was deliberate --
Verra had to have intended to get pregnant, and she had to have
intended to have a kid with Aliera's soul.
There's something mystically important about /Dolivar/, /Kieron/, and
whomever Aliera was then being incarnate at the same time; we know
that Aliera recognizes Vlad, wants Kieron out of the Paths of the
Dead, and that Kieron is going to father Devera. We also know that
all three of them _haven't_ been incarnate at the same time since the
Empire was founded, since Kieron's soul has been sulking in his tent
that long, and that Aliera describes Kieron's sword as _purposed_.
(note - I do not expect Sethra the younger to survive Kieron emerging
from the Paths of the Dead.)
My best guess is that the House of the Phoenix is going to have to be
replaced in the Cycle for things to stay stable, that there are
factions of Gods who have opinions about the desirability of this
happening and if so by who, and that Vlad -- who has been an assassin
for a very long time, if you go by what Aliera says of Dolivar's
carreer in :Jhereg: -- is going to end up killing one of the Gods
involved. I think it's going to be Verra.
>* Odds and Ends
>Why _don't_ your ears pop when you teleport up?
Why would they? The spell is only teleporting you, not the air in
your ears and your lungs. You arrive in the hole the spell carves in
the ambient atmosphere, a hole shaped with utter precision so that
each of your aveoli reappears around a little ball of air and your
eustachian tubes are full of air, too, all at ambient pressure. (and
Vlad wonders why he wants to throw up.)
This also explains why teleporting got easier with the
post-Interregnum techniques; moving dead mass was probably always
pretty easy, but getting adequate precision of timing to not cause
embolisms or asphyxia was probably challenging.
>Aliera has _brown_ eyes on page 65, which may be a first. Presumably this
>is Vlad's memory playing tricks on him.
Or Aliera experimenting with sorcerous makeup? (I haven't got :Dragon:
yet, am guessing.)
Kate Nepveu
: In article <724mrr$h...@journal.concentric.net>,
: Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
Stil spoilers.
:>* The Seroli and the Great Weapons
:>Aliera thinks that Pathfinder was trying to get to her. Why does she
:>think that? If she's right, why her? (She's not looking to commit a spot
: We _know_, from :Jhereg:, that's she's right. Pathfinder is in
: whatever sense of meant is meant meant for Aliera e'Kieron.
I'm not entirely sure what evidence you mean in _Jhereg_. Are you
referring to its actions in saving her soul?
If so, I hadn't realized that this was unique on Pathfinder's part.
Morrolan calls Blackwand his familiar, after all.
: Why her, well, we know two things; it's the start of the next Great
: Cycle, since Zerika is a reborn Phoenix, and the Cycle is broken.
: (it's also the Great Cycle of the Dragon, which ought to be good for a
: lot of astrological nervousness.)
[...]
: There's something mystically important about /Dolivar/, /Kieron/, and
: whomever Aliera was then being incarnate at the same time; we know
: that Aliera recognizes Vlad, wants Kieron out of the Paths of the
: Dead, and that Kieron is going to father Devera.
*grumble* I still think she deserves a cooler father, but yes, it does
look that way.
We also know that
: all three of them _haven't_ been incarnate at the same time since the
: Empire was founded, since Kieron's soul has been sulking in his tent
: that long, and that Aliera describes Kieron's sword as _purposed_.
This fits with a question I had on my list and didn't post, which is "Why
does Aliera want Kieron out of the Paths?" She refers to him finishing
his job; I had put the issue aside because the Empire seemed to be united
at present. The Cycle's problems had slipped my mind (I was also thinking
that a spot of genetic engineering/strategically timed release of a
phoenix from captivity might address the issue. I'm still not convinced
that it won't, but for purposes of discussion...).
: (note - I do not expect Sethra the younger to survive Kieron emerging
: from the Paths of the Dead.)
Gee, and I'll be so heartbroken.
I wonder, are they going to let him out as-is--no waiting to be born and
grow up--or will the time tricks take care of that?
: My best guess is that the House of the Phoenix is going to have to be
: replaced in the Cycle for things to stay stable,
So, a new House. Either genetically engineered, or... nah. It's the
_Dragaeran_ Empire, after all.
Wonder which animal (if any) they'll pick? And what will this do to the
17+2 series structure? =>
that there are
: factions of Gods who have opinions about the desirability of this
: happening and if so by who, and that Vlad -- who has been an assassin
: for a very long time, if you go by what Aliera says of Dolivar's
: carreer in :Jhereg: -- is going to end up killing one of the Gods
: involved. I think it's going to be Verra.
Care to explain why?
:>* Odds and Ends
:>Why _don't_ your ears pop when you teleport up?
: Why would they? The spell is only teleporting you, not the air in
: your ears and your lungs. You arrive in the hole the spell carves in
: the ambient atmosphere, a hole shaped with utter precision so that
: each of your aveoli reappears around a little ball of air and your
: eustachian tubes are full of air, too, all at ambient pressure. (and
: Vlad wonders why he wants to throw up.)
...I don't think there's anything I could possibly say to this.
:>Aliera has _brown_ eyes on page 65, which may be a first. Presumably this
:>is Vlad's memory playing tricks on him.
: Or Aliera experimenting with sorcerous makeup? (I haven't got :Dragon:
: yet, am guessing.)
Well, anyone who would levitate to make up for her height certainly would
have no qualms about messing around with her facial coloring...
David Eppstein
> that there are factions of Gods who have opinions about the
> desirability of this happening and if so by who, and that Vlad -- who
> has been an assassin for a very long time, if you go by what Aliera
> says of Dolivar's carreer in :Jhereg: -- is going to end up killing
> one of the Gods involved. I think it's going to be Verra.
I can see Vlad being set up for killing one of the gods
(both his career in the Jhereg and his connection to Godslayer seem to
point that way). And, there are literary reasons for it to be Verra
(it would be unsatisfying for some redshirt walk-on god to get it).
But, there are also reasons why it doesn't seem to make sense. Number
one, Vlad and all his associates are all very much of Verra's party. This
can't be a coincidence, and I think it means that he would only be
likely to kill her if it were in some sense her will. But then it
wouldn't be an assasination... Number two, she's already been killed in
a different Brust book, doing it again would be redundant.
--
David Eppstein UC Irvine Dept. of Information & Computer Science
epps...@ics.uci.edu http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/
Monty Ashley
: Okay, so it takes 200 years. Are _you_ going to be the guy who tries to
: rush Mario?
We learned many books ago that "Mario wouldn't work under a time limit,"
but I suspect "waiting for the guy to die of old age" doesn't qualify as
an assassination.
-Monty
Monty Ashley
:
:
: we know
: that Aliera recognizes Vlad, wants Kieron out of the Paths of the
: Dead, and that Kieron is going to father Devera.
What? How do we know that Kieron is going to father Devera? I had been
under the impression that Devera's father was still unknown.
-Monty
Graydon
Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
>: In article <724mrr$h...@journal.concentric.net>,
>: Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
>:>* The Seroli and the Great Weapons
>:>Aliera thinks that Pathfinder was trying to get to her. Why does she
>:>think that? If she's right, why her? (She's not looking to commit a spot
>
>: We _know_, from :Jhereg:, that's she's right. Pathfinder is in
>: whatever sense of meant is meant meant for Aliera e'Kieron.
>
>I'm not entirely sure what evidence you mean in _Jhereg_. Are you
>referring to its actions in saving her soul?
Aliera isn't sure that will happen; she gives as the reason that it
happens that Pathfinder is linked to her soul. So I'd say that Aliera
considered the rescue from the morganti dagger the final proof of her
suspicions. (And we know from the survival of Baron What's-his-name,
cut by Blackwand, that the morganti...
Oh. _OH!_
I was going to say 'the morganti weapon soul-sucking trick isn't
perfect', and then I realized that Vlad has a _perfect_ out.
He gets assassinated -- not planning, he just _does_, he's not perfect
-- by whomever, including Mario, using a morganti dagger. This is
public, there's a huge stink, the Empire investigates, etc.
The Necromancer/Aliera/Sethra gets ahold of Spellbreaker, and hauls
Vlad's soul out of it and puts it back into Vlad's body, while all
this is just getting started, and Vlad is then offically dead. Very
handy. The kid gets to be Count Szurke, Vlad gets some say into
appointing the regency -- hell, _Morrolan_'d be a near-ideal regent if
he's willing to do it -- and all is well.
>If so, I hadn't realized that this was unique on Pathfinder's part.
>Morrolan calls Blackwand his familiar, after all.
Which also means linked to his soul, and explains a lot of why Vlad
took so very long to warm to Morrolan. (Vlad doesn't have to think to
realize just how creepy that is.)
I don't find it implausible that Morrolan has also found an extremely
suitable Great Weapon; I'm inclined to the view that an unsuitable
Great Weapon is a very, very bad idea to attempt to possess. (Might
explain some of Sethra the Younger's reluctance to try to claim
Pathfinder, come to that. She's ambitious, but not completely crazy.
(Ever heard of the curse on the sword Tyrfing? That every time it was
drawn, someone would die? Unhappy Great Weapons are probably worse
than that.))
>: Why her, well, we know two things; it's the start of the next Great
>: Cycle, since Zerika is a reborn Phoenix, and the Cycle is broken.
>: (it's also the Great Cycle of the Dragon, which ought to be good for a
>: lot of astrological nervousness.)
>
>[...]
>
>: There's something mystically important about /Dolivar/, /Kieron/, and
>: whomever Aliera was then being incarnate at the same time; we know
>: that Aliera recognizes Vlad, wants Kieron out of the Paths of the
>: Dead, and that Kieron is going to father Devera.
>
>*grumble* I still think she deserves a cooler father, but yes, it does
>look that way.
I think Kieron is much cooler than Vlad recognizes. Also note, we
have no idea _who_ killed Kieron, and there is no reason to suppose
that 'the strain of holding the empire together with the Jhereg in it'
that Aliera talks about didn't lead to his assasination, rather than
his offing by a bunch of Lyron nobles.
> We also know that
>: all three of them _haven't_ been incarnate at the same time since the
>: Empire was founded, since Kieron's soul has been sulking in his tent
>: that long, and that Aliera describes Kieron's sword as _purposed_.
>
>This fits with a question I had on my list and didn't post, which is "Why
>does Aliera want Kieron out of the Paths?" She refers to him finishing
She wants his genes.
We know that the e'Kieron line of the House of the Dragon is unique in
being able to create chaos; we know that Kieron is supposed to have
had the ability, but to have not used it. We don't know _why_ he had
it, nor how he got it. Betcha it's important, though.
>his job; I had put the issue aside because the Empire seemed to be united
>at present. The Cycle's problems had slipped my mind (I was also thinking
Kieron isn't particularly the first Emperor, he's something else,
Kieron the Conqueror. Wanna bet that the sword was forged to conquer
the world?
>that a spot of genetic engineering/strategically timed release of a
>phoenix from captivity might address the issue. I'm still not convinced
>that it won't, but for purposes of discussion...).
I suspect they take their omens a bit more seriously than that.
Whatever they do, it has to replace the House of the Phoenix, or
change the material Cycle in the Paths as well as achieving political
acceptance in the Empire.
>: (note - I do not expect Sethra the younger to survive Kieron emerging
>: from the Paths of the Dead.)
>
>Gee, and I'll be so heartbroken.
I am not sure she deserves being blotted like a bug, even so. I would
very much like to know what her name was before she decided to emulate
her mentor's nomenclature, though.
>I wonder, are they going to let him out as-is--no waiting to be born and
>grow up--or will the time tricks take care of that?
That's what Mr. Brust said this July at Ad Astra, that he was going to
come out as himself. He may have had a better idea since. I'm still
boggled, that's going to make three.
>: My best guess is that the House of the Phoenix is going to have to be
>: replaced in the Cycle for things to stay stable,
>
>So, a new House. Either genetically engineered, or... nah. It's the
>_Dragaeran_ Empire, after all.
So? No one thinks Vlad isn't really a Jhereg.
>Wonder which animal (if any) they'll pick? And what will this do to the
>17+2 series structure? =>
It has to be a Phoenix, unless they want to _recreate_ the Cycle,
which seems unlikely. Humans make really good Phoenix analogs --
short, rapid lives, constantly being reincarnated, burbling along.
> that there are
>: factions of Gods who have opinions about the desirability of this
>: happening and if so by who, and that Vlad -- who has been an assassin
>: for a very long time, if you go by what Aliera says of Dolivar's
>: carreer in :Jhereg: -- is going to end up killing one of the Gods
>: involved. I think it's going to be Verra.
>
>Care to explain why?
Because that's the one diety that it will really bother Vlad to kill.
Also, that way Aliera makes sense, and she'll have a slot to
apotheosize into to.
>:>* Odds and Ends
>:>Why _don't_ your ears pop when you teleport up?
>
>: Why would they? The spell is only teleporting you, not the air in
>: your ears and your lungs. You arrive in the hole the spell carves in
>: the ambient atmosphere, a hole shaped with utter precision so that
>: each of your aveoli reappears around a little ball of air and your
>: eustachian tubes are full of air, too, all at ambient pressure. (and
>: Vlad wonders why he wants to throw up.)
>
>...I don't think there's anything I could possibly say to this.
Hee. Gloat. (If the spell swaps the you-shaped volume of air with
the you-shaped hole in the air you just left, this explains why
teleportation doesn't make a loud noise, nor necessarily any much
noise at all.)
>:>Aliera has _brown_ eyes on page 65, which may be a first. Presumably this
>:>is Vlad's memory playing tricks on him.
>
>: Or Aliera experimenting with sorcerous makeup? (I haven't got :Dragon:
>: yet, am guessing.)
>
>Well, anyone who would levitate to make up for her height certainly would
>have no qualms about messing around with her facial coloring...
Yeah. Or she's trying to see what degree of concious control she has
over the change.
Kate Nepveu
Extremely minor spoilers and much future-of-series speculation.
:>: We _know_, from :Jhereg:, that's she's right. Pathfinder is in
:>: whatever sense of meant is meant meant for Aliera e'Kieron.
:>I'm not entirely sure what evidence you mean in _Jhereg_. Are you
:>referring to its actions in saving her soul?
: Aliera isn't sure that will happen; she gives as the reason that it
: happens that Pathfinder is linked to her soul. So I'd say that Aliera
: considered the rescue from the morganti dagger the final proof of her
: suspicions.
Actually, Vlad says that Pathfinder is linked to her soul when he comes up
with the idea (end of c.15). So I presumed that getting/keeping a Great
Weapon means having it linked to you automatically.
I wonder if you could think of them as a very nasty version of Lackey's
Companions? Soul-bond, picked out by one that's compatible with you...
I still want to know how Aliera knew it was meant for her, but oh well.
: (And we know from the survival of Baron What's-his-name,
: cut by Blackwand, that the morganti...
: Oh. _OH!_
: I was going to say 'the morganti weapon soul-sucking trick isn't
: perfect',
I thought that with regard to Baron Loraan it was just that the Great
Weapons could, umm, change their mind and let them back out. If you
aren't either 1) killed by a GW or 2) owner of a GW, you're SOL. But
proceed.
: and then I realized that Vlad has a _perfect_ out.
: He gets assassinated -- not planning, he just _does_, he's not perfect
: -- by whomever, including Mario, using a morganti dagger. This is
: public, there's a huge stink, the Empire investigates, etc.
: The Necromancer/Aliera/Sethra gets ahold of Spellbreaker, and hauls
: Vlad's soul out of it and puts it back into Vlad's body, while all
: this is just getting started, and Vlad is then offically dead. Very
: handy.
Not faking a death, a real death. Neat.
[...]
:> We also know that
:>: all three of them _haven't_ been incarnate at the same time since the
:>: Empire was founded, since Kieron's soul has been sulking in his tent
:>: that long, and that Aliera describes Kieron's sword as _purposed_.
:>This fits with a question I had on my list and didn't post, which is "Why
:>does Aliera want Kieron out of the Paths?" She refers to him finishing
: She wants his genes.
: We know that the e'Kieron line of the House of the Dragon is unique in
: being able to create chaos; we know that Kieron is supposed to have
: had the ability, but to have not used it. We don't know _why_ he had
: it, nor how he got it. Betcha it's important, though.
Would that be what he left unfinished? Though what you can usefully do
with chaos does sort of puzzle me...
I think I prefer the fixing the Empire/Cycle interpretation pending
further information.
:>his job; I had put the issue aside because the Empire seemed to be united
:>at present. The Cycle's problems had slipped my mind (I was also thinking
: Kieron isn't particularly the first Emperor, he's something else,
: Kieron the Conqueror. Wanna bet that the sword was forged to conquer
: the world?
No bet. Yet, he deliberately left the Easterners unconquered to increase
the stability of the Empire. And bringing Easterners outside of the
Empire in as new Phoenixes seems... logistically problematic.
[Sethra the Younger]
: I would
: very much like to know what her name was before she decided to emulate
: her mentor's nomenclature, though.
Ooh. Yes. Add that to the list of people with mysterious identities.
:>I wonder, are they going to let him out as-is--no waiting to be born and
:>grow up--or will the time tricks take care of that?
: That's what Mr. Brust said this July at Ad Astra, that he was going to
: come out as himself. He may have had a better idea since. I'm still
: boggled, that's going to make three.
And they're going to have a tough time justifying it on previous
precedents.
:>: My best guess is that the House of the Phoenix is going to have to be
:>: replaced in the Cycle for things to stay stable,
:>So, a new House. Either genetically engineered, or... nah. It's the
:>_Dragaeran_ Empire, after all.
: So? No one thinks Vlad isn't really a Jhereg.
True. Given the prejudice, though, I have a hard time picturing the
populace welcoming the idea.
:>Wonder which animal (if any) they'll pick? And what will this do to the
:>17+2 series structure? =>
: It has to be a Phoenix, unless they want to _recreate_ the Cycle,
: which seems unlikely. Humans make really good Phoenix analogs --
: short, rapid lives, constantly being reincarnated, burbling along.
Ah, I was misreading you--I thought you meant replace Phoenix with
something else, not replace the members of the House with someone else.
"Burbling?" I've never heard that a phoenix burbles... *grin*
Graydon
David Eppstein <epps...@euclid.ics.uci.edu> wrote:
>Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
>> that there are factions of Gods who have opinions about the
>> desirability of this happening and if so by who, and that Vlad -- who
>> has been an assassin for a very long time, if you go by what Aliera
>> says of Dolivar's carreer in :Jhereg: -- is going to end up killing
>> one of the Gods involved. I think it's going to be Verra.
>
>(both his career in the Jhereg and his connection to Godslayer seem to
>point that way). And, there are literary reasons for it to be Verra
>(it would be unsatisfying for some redshirt walk-on god to get it).
Yeah. We haven't really seen much of any other god.
>But, there are also reasons why it doesn't seem to make sense. Number
>one, Vlad and all his associates are all very much of Verra's party. This
>can't be a coincidence, and I think it means that he would only be
>likely to kill her if it were in some sense her will. But then it
I don't think that limit exists, and the interaction of Vlad's
customary pieties and his evolving social conciousness may well prove
to be highly peculiar.
>wouldn't be an assasination... Number two, she's already been killed in
>a different Brust book, doing it again would be redundant.
But that's not killed, that's banished; Verra'll have a very severe
problem manifesting in Fenario for a long time, but she's hardly
_dead_. It takes something very heavy to manage to outright kill a
god, after all.
Although I do find myself thinking about Vlad's comment about Iceflame
-- 'the only two artifacts with power to match it are the sword
Godslayer and the Imperial Orb'.
John Moreno
> Derek Tattersall <tat...@planet.net> wrote:
> >Okay, so it takes 200 years. Are _you_ going to be the guy who tries to
> >rush Mario?
>
> Why are you willing to assume that Mario would compromise his
> professional ethics like that?
From what we know of him (damn little) that seems unlikely - but then
again who says you have to hire Mario? Just leak it that you've hired
Mario (unless he takes offense at that, which is a different matter
completely).
> Helya, why are you willing to assume that Mario is a person and not a
> job description?
Do you have anything to back that up -- I'm firmly under the impression
that Mario is a person.
--
John Moreno
Graydon
Monty Ashley <mo...@animal.blarg.net> wrote:
>Graydon (gra...@gooroos.com) wrote:
>: we know
>: that Aliera recognizes Vlad, wants Kieron out of the Paths of the
>: Dead, and that Kieron is going to father Devera.
>
>What? How do we know that Kieron is going to father Devera? I had been
>under the impression that Devera's father was still unknown.
That it's Kieron and that he's coming out of the Paths as himself is
something Mr. Brust has said when asked about this; he is of course
entirely free to change his mind, but that's what I've presently got
to go on when I'm busy formenting these speculations.
Graydon
John Moreno <phe...@interpath.com> wrote:
>Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
>> Helya, why are you willing to assume that Mario is a person and not a
>> job description?
>
>Do you have anything to back that up -- I'm firmly under the impression
>that Mario is a person.
That's the impression, but we've never seen him, and the one person
who ought to have seen him doesn't talk about him much. (Aliera.)
Paarfi is not a reliable source by any means.
Ian A. York
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>: My best guess is that the House of the Phoenix is going to have to be
>: replaced in the Cycle for things to stay stable,
>
>So, a new House. Either genetically engineered, or... nah. It's the
I think there's a much easier way out; there's already an example in the
books that demonstrates that, in fact. Aliera is a perfectly good Dragon,
and no one has a problem with her taking the throne. But she's actually
Dragon only on her father's side; her mother can't possibly be a Dragon in
anything but the most symbolic of ways. Why couldn't the same approach
re-populate the Phoenix?
Ian
--
Ian York (iay...@panix.com) <http://www.panix.com/~iayork/>
"-but as he was a York, I am rather inclined to suppose him a
very respectable Man." -Jane Austen, The History of England
B J T
of the dead will his body was still living. And the Kieron we met in the
Paths may not be the Kieron we know.
On to the questions
On the last page of Dragon Vald is asked when he is going to "talk to the
box." What box, did I miss something?
Ok, if Doliver <sp?> was born as a Dragon, became a Jhereg and died. If
Dragaern soul's go to the Paths and "Eastern" souls don't belong in the
Paths. How come Vald is an Easterner?
Brian Thorpe
bjth...@pacbell.net
"Three can keep a secret if two are dead."
- Brust, Dragon
Phil Fraering
> Graydon (gra...@gooroos.com) wrote:
>
> :
> What? How do we know that Kieron is going to father Devera? I had been
> under the impression that Devera's father was still unknown.
>
> -Monty
It just occured to me that Devera's name does suggest that Aliera is
going to supplant Verra... but y'all have probably thought about that
already.
--
Phil Fraering "Strange, isn't it? Dinosaurs have been dead
p...@globalreach.net for millions of years, yet they still get parts
/Will work for *tape*/ in movies. It hardly seems fair."
Richard Harter
[snip]
>I think Kieron is much cooler than Vlad recognizes. Also note, we
>have no idea _who_ killed Kieron, and there is no reason to suppose
>that 'the strain of holding the empire together with the Jhereg in it'
>that Aliera talks about didn't lead to his assasination, rather than
>his offing by a bunch of Lyron nobles.
Aw, c'mon. Vlad offed Kieron. Everybody knows that.
[nip]
>>: My best guess is that the House of the Phoenix is going to have to be
>>: replaced in the Cycle for things to stay stable,
Perhaps Vlad is going to be killed and is reborn as a Phoenix?
Lot's of good tacky symbolism there.
Richard Harter, c...@tiac.net, The Concord Research Institute
URL = http://www.tiac.net/users/cri, phone = 1-978-369-3911
If you can laugh at something it can't hurt you.
It can kill you but it can't hurt you.
Derek Tattersall
gra...@gooroos.com (Graydon) writes:
|> In article <724kv3$h...@news3.newsguy.com>,
|> Derek Tattersall <tat...@planet.net> wrote:
|> >Okay, so it takes 200 years. Are _you_ going to be the guy who tries to
|> >rush Mario?
|>
|> Why are you willing to assume that Mario would compromise his
|> professional ethics like that?
|>
Because Aliera asks him to?
|> Helya, why are you willing to assume that Mario is a person and not a
|> job description?
Well Sethra Lavode seemed to think he was a real person (or Elf) but I
guess the evidence is equivocal.
Anyway, I'm just speculating here. I'm sure Steven Brust will come up
with something much better than I could.
Derek Tattersall
mo...@animal.blarg.net (Monty Ashley) writes:
|> Derek Tattersall (tat...@ninja.tatternet.org) wrote:
|>
|> : Okay, so it takes 200 years. Are _you_ going to be the guy who tries to
|> : rush Mario?
|>
|> but I suspect "waiting for the guy to die of old age" doesn't qualify as
|> an assassination.
|>
I was thinking about the differences in the lifespan between the Easterners
and the elves. An elf shouldn't mind waiting 50 or 60 years for the death
of an enemy after all.
Or maybe Vlad will come up with another way out, I don't insist on this
answer.
Terry Austin
>: Or Aliera experimenting with sorcerous makeup? (I haven't got :Dragon:
>: yet, am guessing.)
>
>Well, anyone who would levitate to make up for her height certainly would
>have no qualms about messing around with her facial coloring...
>
I've always wondered if that was because she is self-conscious about her
height, or just as a way of inciting people to start fights with her.
Terry Austin
tau...@hyperbooks.com
http://www.hyperbooks.com
Lynn Calvin
wrote:
>That will be answered in ISSOLA.
I realize this is profoundly ungrateful and unreasonable but...
WHEN!?!
Lynn Calvin
lca...@interaccess.com
Lynn Calvin
<lou...@mail.smu.edu> wrote:
>
>
>There are times when I even consider it might be worthwhile living in
>Minnesota to be close to that batch of SF writers. I watch the Weather
>Channel for a while, and it blows over.
>
My best friend just moved to Minnesota...
Lynn Calvin
lca...@interaccess.com
Graydon
Derek Tattersall <tat...@planet.net> wrote:
>In article <724tr0$rra$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
> gra...@gooroos.com (Graydon) writes:
>|> In article <724kv3$h...@news3.newsguy.com>,
>|> >Okay, so it takes 200 years. Are _you_ going to be the guy who tries to
>|> >rush Mario?
>|>
>|> professional ethics like that?
>
>Because Aliera asks him to?
I don't think that's very likely, either; asking him not to take the
job, _that_ I can see. Asking him to pretend not to do it, well, can
he take other work with Vlad still among the living? Probably not,
right, since there's this very high profile job he's working on,
right?
Not taking the job is one thing; pretending to do it quite another.
John Moreno
> Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> >: Or Aliera experimenting with sorcerous makeup? (I haven't got :Dragon:
> >: yet, am guessing.)
> >
> >Well, anyone who would levitate to make up for her height certainly would
> >have no qualms about messing around with her facial coloring...
> >
> I've always wondered if that was because she is self-conscious about her
> height, or just as a way of inciting people to start fights with her.
Don't you mean: Which is the primary reason why she does it?
--
John Monore
John Moreno
> John Moreno <phe...@interpath.com> wrote:
> >Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
> >> Helya, why are you willing to assume that Mario is a person and not a
> >> job description?
> >
> >Do you have anything to back that up -- I'm firmly under the impression
> >that Mario is a person.
>
> That's the impression, but we've never seen him, and the one person
> who ought to have seen him doesn't talk about him much. (Aliera.)
> Paarfi is not a reliable source by any means.
I believe Sertha and/or (depending upon how you want look at it) her
alter ego have both indicated familiarity with "him".
--
John Moreno
John Moreno
> Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
> >
> >Still spoilers.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >: My best guess is that the House of the Phoenix is going to have to be
> >: replaced in the Cycle for things to stay stable,
> >
> >So, a new House. Either genetically engineered, or... nah. It's the
>
> I think there's a much easier way out; there's already an example in the
> books that demonstrates that, in fact. Aliera is a perfectly good Dragon,
> and no one has a problem with her taking the throne. But she's actually
> Dragon only on her father's side; her mother can't possibly be a Dragon in
> anything but the most symbolic of ways. Why couldn't the same approach
> re-populate the Phoenix?
Because they don't have the same rules as to who is and is not a Dragon
as they do for who is and is not a Phoenix?
IIRC -- a Phoenix has to be born of two parents who are Phoenix's as
well as having a Phoenix fly by at the time of birth. That would
eliminate Aliera unless they re-write the rules.
--
John Moreno
Geri Sullivan
Well, it's a bit soon for Lynn's friend, but if you change your mind in
a couple of years, Louann, and are interested in a reasonably-priced
home in South Minneapolis where most if not all of "that batch" of SF
writers have helped make for many fine fannish parties over the past 15
years, be sure to inquire as to the availability of Toad Hall. Be
warned, though, current plans call for us to take "The Sun, the Moon,
and the Stars" to our new home, wherever that proves to be.
I think Minnesota is a *fine* place to live for 20 years or so. You get
to see pretty much every kind of winter there is in that period of time,
and form lots of lifelong friendships in the process. I recommend it.
Highly, even. And best done before old-age mobility problems collide
with winter weather mobility problems.....
Geri
--
Geri Sullivan g...@toad-hall.com
Terry Austin
>Terry Austin <tau...@hyperbooks.com> wrote:
>
>> Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
>>
>> >: Or Aliera experimenting with sorcerous makeup? (I haven't got :Dragon:
>> >: yet, am guessing.)
>> >
>> >Well, anyone who would levitate to make up for her height certainly would
>> >have no qualms about messing around with her facial coloring...
>> >
>> I've always wondered if that was because she is self-conscious about her
>> height, or just as a way of inciting people to start fights with her.
>
>Don't you mean: Which is the primary reason why she does it?
Excellent point.
David Goldfarb
)David Goldfarb wrote:
)
)> In _Brokedown Palace_ an Easterner who uses sorcery (as a Teckla, even)
)> manages to live for a couple hundred years -- and does *not* die of
)> natural causes.
)
) *flips through his copy of _BP_* Which easterner is this?
Sandor, of course. I just went looking through my copy, and
couldn't find a reference to his exact age, but there *are* references
to him feeling fear "for the first time in a hundred years", and he
does explicitly say that he's extended his life through sorcery.
--
David Goldfarb <*>|"All is strange and vague."
gold...@ocf.berkeley.edu | "Are we dead?"
aste...@slip.net |"Or is this Ohio?"
gold...@csua.berkeley.edu | -- Animaniacs
Jo Walton
> On the last page of Dragon Vald is asked when he is going to "talk to the
> box." What box, did I miss something?
The _metal_ box he's telling the stories to.
The _tape recorder_ he's telling the stories to.
This leads to the following series of questions:
Who gave Vlad the box?
When did they give Vlad the box?
Why did he trust them?
He said he was getting gold and neat gadgets in exchange, fair enough,
but what he's telling them is very dangerous to have other people know.
How can he trust them not to tell the Jhereg, or the Empress? Who _are_
they? Where did he meet them?
Also :Orca: - is _Sethra_ talking into a box too? Who the heck would
Sethra talk into a box for???????????????????
Now at Convocation, in conversation, Mr. Brust told me that Vlad
was telling the stories into an alien tape recorder, and it wasn't
Jenoine aliens, it was different ones. If this remains the case,
all those questions again, especially "Why did he trust them?" and
"Where did he meet them?" along with "Who on Dragaera are they?" and
"Why are they there?" and "How do they know Vlad's important?"
> Ok, if Doliver <sp?> was born as a Dragon, became a Jhereg and died. If
> Dragaern soul's go to the Paths and "Eastern" souls don't belong in the
> Paths. How come Vald is an Easterner?
I was in a RPG once in which one of the party knew a tiny bit about magic
and none of the others knew anything about magic at all. Whenever we asked
the one who knew a tiny bit a question about magic he couldn't answer easily
he'd reply mysteriously "That's Arcane!" and shut up, refusing to say any
more. (For any fans of my RPG writing, yes, that's where the GURPS "Arcane"
disad comes from.) Anyway, that strikes me as one of those questions for
which "That's Arcane!" is a perfect response.
--
Jo - - I kissed a kif at Kefk - - J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.bluejo.demon.co.uk - Blood of Kings Poetry; rasfw FAQ;
Reviews; Interstichia; Momentum - a paying market for real poetry.
Kate Nepveu
: In article <36462...@news.blarg.net>,
: Monty Ashley <mo...@animal.blarg.net> wrote:
:>What? How do we know that Kieron is going to father Devera? I had been
:>under the impression that Devera's father was still unknown.
: That it's Kieron and that he's coming out of the Paths as himself is
: something Mr. Brust has said when asked about this; he is of course
: entirely free to change his mind, but that's what I've presently got
: to go on when I'm busy formenting these speculations.
*boggle* Hello, when did Brust say that Kieron was Devera's dad? What
happened to the RAFO^H^H^H^H"wait and see"?
Kate Nepveu
Spoilers. Please include spoiler space.
: I wonder if Kieron is already incarnate, after all Braitt was in the Path's
: of the dead will his body was still living. And the Kieron we met in the
: Paths may not be the Kieron we know.
Possible, but Brust has reportedly said that Kieron will come out as
himself, as has been discussed elsewhere in this thread.
: On to the questions
: On the last page of Dragon Vald is asked when he is going to "talk to the
: box." What box, did I miss something?
You did. This is mentioned throughout the book, and even in the first
few pages. _Taltos_ through _Phoenix_ are Vlad's one-sided conversations
with a metal box (presumably some variant of tape recorder).
: Ok, if Doliver <sp?> was born as a Dragon, became a Jhereg and died. If
: Dragaern soul's go to the Paths and "Eastern" souls don't belong in the
: Paths. How come Vald is an Easterner?
Because reincarnation is weird.
Basically, the souls are the same, but it's the body you were last in that
determines if you go to the Paths.
If you have a copy of _Taltos_ on hand, take a look at the conversation
they have with Verra about the blood being the primary key.
Andrew Plotkin
> In article <7253vl$1...@journal.concentric.net>,
> Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
> >
> >Still spoilers.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >: My best guess is that the House of the Phoenix is going to have to be
> >: replaced in the Cycle for things to stay stable,
> >
> >So, a new House. Either genetically engineered, or... nah. It's the
> I think there's a much easier way out; there's already an example in the
> books that demonstrates that, in fact. Aliera is a perfectly good Dragon,
> and no one has a problem with her taking the throne. But she's actually
> Dragon only on her father's side; her mother can't possibly be a Dragon in
> anything but the most symbolic of ways. Why couldn't the same approach
> re-populate the Phoenix?
I wonder who has been in charge of phoenix flight timing, pre-interregnum.
Phoenix house leadership? (Seems unlikely, although I guess Zerika could
just be waiting for the right moment to pull a phoenix out of her hat.)
Some god seems most probable.
--Z
--
"And Aholibamah bare Jeush, and Jaalam, and Korah: these were the
borogoves..."
ja...@norman.carswell.com
gra...@gooroos.com (Graydon) wrote:
> I'm starting to think that the entire Jhereg is going to think someone
> is hired to off him when in fact no such thing is the case. It's
> either that or fake his death to a degree of convincingness I can't
> imagine that he could achieve.
>
I have a gut feeling that it's something a little more fundamental than either
of the two above possibilities.
Maybe refound House Jhereg from the base up? After all, he was the one who
founded it in the first place, back before the Cycles began.
Get zapped with whatever it takes to become a demigod? This makes him safe
from anything but Godslayer. After all, Verra was one of the ones who got him
into this; maybe (with some prodding from her daughter) she'll be the one to
get him out.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
ch...@my-dejanews.com
Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
> Chad R Orzel <oil...@wam.umd.edu> wrote:
> * The Necromancer
>
> Vlad is... having an out-of-body experience? Discovering a new form of
> psionic communication, one which your familiar doesn't notice?
I took that as an OBE.
> What, exactly, is the Necromancer? She seems to be more than your
> garden-variety undead, but beyond that...
Inquiring minds want to know.
> Vlad thinks [in another book] she did the wounded dragon portrait in
> Morrolan's castle, which sounds awfully like the one in _The Phoenix
> Guards_. She isn't Kathana, is she? Is Vlad or Paarfi confused?
In a personal communication, I talked to Brust about this. Kathana is not the
Necromancer. Kathana's portrait hung in the Dragon House in Dragaera City, and
was thus consumed in Adron's Disaster.
However, Steve *had* intended it to be the same picture, but screwed up. What
he came up with was that "the dragon protecting her young" is a common image
for Dragons to work with.
--
Chad Underkoffler [ch...@yahoo.com]
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Cavern/5751/index.html
"Hold your breath. Make a wish. Count to three."
Richard D. Latham
> In article <724kv3$h...@news3.newsguy.com>,
> Derek Tattersall <tat...@planet.net> wrote:
> >Okay, so it takes 200 years. Are _you_ going to be the guy who tries to
> >rush Mario?
>
> Why are you willing to assume that Mario would compromise his
> professional ethics like that?
>
> Helya, why are you willing to assume that Mario is a person and not a
> job description?
Hmmm. I've always wondered when Vlad met (or saw, or thought he'd
seen) Mario. The first description we have of Kiera in Vlad's office
is him commenting that her walk reminds him of Mario's ...
--
#include <disclaimer.std> /* I don't speak for IBM ... */
/* Heck, I don't even speak for myself */
/* Don't beleive me ? Ask my wife :-) */
Richard D. Latham lat...@us.ibm.com
Richard D. Latham
> J...@bluejo.demon.co.uk (Jo Walton) wrote:
> >
> >What _could_ he do for the Jhereg to get that forgotten?
>
> Sneak up to the wheel of the cycle and move the Jhereg symbol
> up to 16 o'clock? :-)
>
>
Nah, my favorite theory is that since there aren't any more Phoenix to
be had, the next cycle will have Easterner's take their turn at the
throne, and Vlad gets appointed as the "Easterner's heir to the
throne" -)
Kate Nepveu
: In article <724mrr$h...@journal.concentric.net>,
: Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
No more spoilers.
:> * The Necromancer
:> Vlad thinks [in another book] she did the wounded dragon portrait in
:> Morrolan's castle, which sounds awfully like the one in _The Phoenix
:> Guards_. She isn't Kathana, is she? Is Vlad or Paarfi confused?
: In a personal communication, I talked to Brust about this. Kathana is not the
: Necromancer. Kathana's portrait hung in the Dragon House in Dragaera City, and
: was thus consumed in Adron's Disaster.
I presumed so, but it did sound so similar...
: However, Steve *had* intended it to be the same picture, but screwed up. What
: he came up with was that "the dragon protecting her young" is a common image
: for Dragons to work with.
So what-his-face that Kathana killed was an exception to the mainstream
taste, then? =>
Louann Miller
> : However, Steve *had* intended it to be the same picture, but screwed up. What
> : he came up with was that "the dragon protecting her young" is a common image
> : for Dragons to work with.
>
> So what-his-face that Kathana killed was an exception to the mainstream
> taste, then? =>
Maybe whats-his-face felt that this was a 'common image' in the same
sense as kittens with big, round eyes in our own culture's art.
(Mental image of Precious Moments dragon; General Protection Fault in
brain.)
--
Updated 9/28/98! Media fan fiction at http://www.cyberramp.net/~millers
Ravi Duvvuri
: Nah, my favorite theory is that since there aren't any more Phoenix to
: be had, the next cycle will have Easterner's take their turn at the
: throne, and Vlad gets appointed as the "Easterner's heir to the
: throne" -)
That's my personal favorite, too. Not very likely, of course, but if you're
going to have a crazy theory, go with it.
I mean, the only current Phoenix is kindly disposed towards Easterners, and
Vlad does have an Imperial Title, for whatever it's worth. Give him a
Great Weapon, and he's all set.
The other thing was that I'd heard the plan was for one book for each of
the houses and 'The Final Contract'. I have no idea how true this is, but
if it is, that would imply that 'Taltos' is a house, or will be one. :)
-r
Kate Nepveu
: The other thing was that I'd heard the plan was for one book for each of
: the houses and 'The Final Contract'. I have no idea how true this is, but
: if it is, that would imply that 'Taltos' is a house, or will be one. :)
I believe that's one for each house, _Taltos_ for the beginning, and _The
Final Contract_ for the end.
This information is kind of old, though, and I'm sure Brust retains the
right to Have a Better Idea.
Jo Walton
kne...@concentric.net "Kate Nepveu" writes:
> Ravi Duvvuri <sola...@jaka.ece.uiuc.edu> wrote:
>
> : The other thing was that I'd heard the plan was for one book for each of
> : the houses and 'The Final Contract'. I have no idea how true this is, but
> : if it is, that would imply that 'Taltos' is a house, or will be one. :)
>
> I believe that's one for each house, _Taltos_ for the beginning, and _The
> Final Contract_ for the end.
Did he say that, or did he say "One for each house and _The Final Contract_"
and someone said "But what about :Taltos:" and he said "Oh yes, :Taltos:,
of course."
That would make sense and it would be sneaky and it works, because
sure enough during :Taltos: he acts like a Taltos - which isn't an
Easterner, it's a witchy-thing, like that horse in :Brokedown Palace:.
Kate Nepveu
: In article <727h8i$m...@chronicle.concentric.net>
: kne...@concentric.net "Kate Nepveu" writes:
:> I believe that's one for each house, _Taltos_ for the beginning, and _The
:> Final Contract_ for the end.
: Did he say that, or did he say "One for each house and _The Final Contract_"
: and someone said "But what about :Taltos:" and he said "Oh yes, :Taltos:,
: of course."
I don't know. I'm working from the following:
"Theoretically there are to be nineteen of the things. One for each House,
Taltos, and the last book, possibly called The Final Contract."
From <http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix/brust/books.html>.
It's not clear what the source of this comment is.
Graydon
<ja...@norman.carswell.com> wrote:
>In article <720m58$543$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
> gra...@gooroos.com (Graydon) wrote:
>> I'm starting to think that the entire Jhereg is going to think someone
>> is hired to off him when in fact no such thing is the case. It's
>> either that or fake his death to a degree of convincingness I can't
>> imagine that he could achieve.
>
>I have a gut feeling that it's something a little more fundamental than either
>of the two above possibilities.
>
>Maybe refound House Jhereg from the base up? After all, he was the one who
>founded it in the first place, back before the Cycles began.
Well, Dolivar did, but Vlad as Vlad isn't in an analagous position, at
all. He's got a thriving, nearly industrial empire for context, not a
bunch of sometimes warring tribes.
I have since come to suspect that the way to arrange this is to have
him publicly killed with a morganti weapon, and to have Spellbreaker
pull that soul-sucking trick to save him.
So he's legally dead, soul destroyed, case closed, Jhereg's not got a
problem anymore, his son inherits, etc. etc.
We then get a scene of a tired Loiosh tapping on a window in Castle
Black, holding a length of gold chain in his claws, and Aliera gets to
play fetch-and-patch-the-body.
>Get zapped with whatever it takes to become a demigod? This makes him safe
>from anything but Godslayer. After all, Verra was one of the ones who got him
>into this; maybe (with some prodding from her daughter) she'll be the one to
>get him out.
I don't think that's possible for Vlad. I am deeply suspicious of
what would happen were Vlad to stop eating. (except of course Cawti
got pregnant, but that might only be becuase Noish-pa has been making
rash promises to Verra.)
Graydon
Kate Nepveu <kne...@concentric.net> wrote:
>Graydon <gra...@gooroos.com> wrote:
>: In article <36462...@news.blarg.net>,
>: Monty Ashley <mo...@animal.blarg.net> wrote:
>:>What? How do we know that Kieron is going to father Devera? I had been
>:>under the impression that Devera's father was still unknown.
>
>: That it's Kieron and that he's coming out of the Paths as himself is
>: something Mr. Brust has said when asked about this; he is of course
>: entirely free to change his mind, but that's what I've presently got
>: to go on when I'm busy formenting these speculations.
>
>*boggle* Hello, when did Brust say that Kieron was Devera's dad? What
>happened to the RAFO^H^H^H^H"wait and see"?
Ad Astra 17, two julys back, if my memory hasn't turned to oatmeal and
I got it right in the first place. (Which is possible dubious, given
how I react to the hideous fumes.)
Thomas
ja...@norman.carswell.com wrote:
> In article <720m58$543$1...@excalibur.gooroos.com>,
> gra...@gooroos.com (Graydon) wrote:
> > I'm starting to think that the entire Jhereg is going to think someone
> > is hired to off him when in fact no such thing is the case. It's
> > either that or fake his death to a degree of convincingness I can't
> > imagine that he could achieve.
> >
Jumping into the Great Sea of Chaos should do it shouldn´t it ?
Of course he couldn´t be _certain_ of surviving this, but I´m
sure Brust can come up with a situation where it would seem
like a good idea.
(Of course he might find that his soul survived but his body
didn´t)